This is a follow up to a previous call, which can be found here: https://fdrpodcasts.com/5590/i-dated-a-sex-addict-freedomain-call-in
0:03 - Introduction to the Struggle
1:02 - Attempting to Have a Child
2:24 - The Tragedy of Loss
4:26 - Family Dynamics Unraveled
6:07 - The Lockdown and Funerals
7:38 - Childhood Trauma and Abandonment
11:16 - The Father’s Role
14:12 - Patterns of Abuse
16:14 - The Impact of Relationships
18:16 - A Brother’s Sacrifice
19:55 - The Aftermath of Tragedy
21:37 - New Responsibilities
22:46 - Seeking Support
27:29 - Navigating Family Relationships
30:27 - The Mother’s Neglect
33:04 - Therapy and Healing
35:27 - Unraveling the Legal Issues
43:14 - Allegations of Fraud
45:42 - The Quest for Justice
52:17 - Financial Struggles
54:41 - Coping Mechanisms
57:15 - The Cost of Beauty
1:00:38 - Courage and Care
1:03:35 - Potential Unfulfilled
1:17:48 - Accepting Reality
1:34:53 - The Impact of Grief
1:51:09 - Navigating Relationship Roles
2:06:11 - Understanding Emotional Isolation
The call begins with the caller connecting with Stefan to discuss the ongoing struggles he faces in his marriage. The caller revisits themes from their previous conversation about his difficult childhood marked by bullying and neglect, which he felt led to unhealthy relationship patterns, particularly with his wife, who has a troubled background herself. The caller expresses that he is currently navigating the complexities of wanting to start a family with his wife, while being aware of her struggles with intimacy that stem from her traumatic past.
The conversation pivots when the caller reveals that his wife has been physically distant since the death of her brother in a tragic accident four and a half years ago. He recounts the circumstances surrounding her brother's death—a violent car crash wherein a series of unfortunate events led to a fatal situation. This incident caused the family to unravel, particularly affecting the emotional wellbeing of the caller's wife, who struggled to cope with the loss.
Stefan probes deeper into the family dynamics, uncovering layers of neglect and dysfunction rooted in the wife's upbringing. The caller describes a mother who exhibited extreme narcissism and brought abusive figures into her children's lives, leaving them vulnerable. This sets the stage for understanding the wife’s current emotional distance and struggle with intimacy. The widowhood was compounded by the loss of familial stability, particularly when her brother—her closest ally and a stabilizing figure—suddenly vanished.
As the discussion unfolds, the caller reveals how the death of her brother led to her mother's erratic behavior, including commandeering family affairs and neglecting the mental health of her daughter. The mother's actions after the accident exposed deeper familial wounds and set a challenging context for the caller and his wife’s relationship. Stefan emphasizes the importance of articulating the facts of the situation instead of clouding the discussion with subjective interpretations and philosophies, which can obscure clarity in understanding the trauma affecting both partners.
Stefan and the caller work through the layers of emotional noise, focusing on the wife’s current inability to engage in intimacy, both physically and emotionally. The concept of high emotional stakes due to past trauma becomes a focal point, examining how the wife's previous experiences with men left her feeling vulnerable and anxious. The caller expresses understanding for his wife's struggle but laments an ongoing feeling of frustration due to their drastically reduced sexual relationship—down from a frequency of several times a week to once a month.
The caller shares that their previously active sexual relationship has diminished over the years, and this lack of connection is causing considerable stress in their marriage. Stefan highlights the existential distress experienced by men in relationships marked by sudden shifts in intimacy, urging the caller to confront this issue openly with his wife rather than letting it fester. This leads to an examination of the emotional impacts of illness on intimacy, referencing the caller’s own health challenges that began around the time of the brother’s death.
Throughout the conversation, Stefan keeps redirecting the dialogue towards actionable responsibilities within the marriage dynamic. He stresses the necessity of communication, particularly regarding the wife’s hesitation to seek medical advice for hormonal issues that might be impacting her sexual health. The caller discloses that he has provided support for these steps, but his wife continues to resist, citing fears and anxieties.
Stefan discusses the implications of enabling this avoidance behavior, suggesting that the wife’s reluctance to address her fears can stifle the growth necessary in their relationship. The call reveals the tension between maintaining one’s autonomy and being accountable to one's partner in a marital context. Stefan encourages the caller to take a more assertive leadership role rather than passively hoping the situation improves on its own.
As the conversation progresses, the caller finds the bravery to confront deeper truths about the nature of love and expectation in relationships. He admits to the enmeshment not only in emotional turmoil but almost in a co-dependent nature with his wife's fears. Stefan challenges him to recognize how this dynamic may undermine their relationship, advocating that a healthy partnership requires each individual to harness their agency instead of being tethered to fears or past traumas.
The caller expresses realization and appreciation for the blunt, yet constructive feedback he receives about his wife's behavior and their relational imbalances. Stefan wraps up by stressing the importance of both individuals maintaining personal integrity and accountability while navigating shared goals, such as having children. He ends the conversation by extending an invitation for the wife to join the discussion in order to facilitate a more complete understanding and solution to their pressing issues.
The call encapsulates a profound exploration of complex familial dynamics, individual trauma, and the collective responsibility partners have in nurturing their emotional and physical connections, setting the stage for growth and transformation within the relationship.
[0:00] Okay, well, nice to meet you. Tell me and remind me the cause for the call.
[0:04] I couldn't find you through this regular call-in show folder, so just remind me what we're here for.
[0:10] Oh, sure. So last time, I think we talked a few months ago, and we were talking about how we went through my childhood and how I was bullied and my parents were neglectful and all that stuff. And then I ended up meeting a borderline girl who was a sex addict. and you revealed to me that it was partially my fault that she ended up the way she did and we ended up using each other quite a bit and I struggled through the last hour of that session just not understanding that I was as much a victim as I was the perpetrator of that whole situation. is that i remember i remember.
[0:59] Now i'm i'm all ears so yeah what's the latest and greatest.
[1:03] All right so uh my wife and i are currently in the throes of attempting to have our first child which is fantastic and i'm i'm i wanted to call in because i'm struggling to deal with her you know her background her sort of history and uh wanting to understand why she's uh sort of, well she sorry i'm a bit nervous here so you'll have to forgive me um yeah so uh she's having uh trouble with intimacy and there's very very good reasons for this and i want to say you mean sex, no no no okay uh not sex uh but like everything and like you know no there's very little like cuddling or sweetness or any of that stuff she's very sort of like off in the corner doing her own thing and i i sympathize with her and i struggle with her because i know exactly what she's going through uh and i'm i just want to say by the outset that i'm not angry with her by any means She has plenty of good reason to feel this way, and this is kind of why I wanted to call in and just see what your thoughts were on the whole situation.
[2:22] I'm all ears.
[2:25] All right, so four and a half years ago, we've been dating for three years, and suddenly her brother dies. So he dies in a violent car crash and it's unbelievably tragic. And ever since that point.
[2:47] What happened with the crash cause effects? Like what was the story?
[2:54] All right. So, um, so she, uh, uh, she was living with him in his house, uh, that he, he owns. I'm living in it now. Um, and they were essentially roommates.
[3:09] Oh, so you, you and your wife are living in her dead, her dead, um, brother's house, right?
[3:16] Correct, yeah. Yeah, and he was a phenomenal tradesman in our region, and he was off on a job, and she was taking care of the house, and then basically what happened is, I'm not going to reveal too much about where exactly we live, but there's a particularly dangerous road that he had to travel along in order to get to this job site, and the weather was particularly... bad that evening he slid off the road and then uh somebody fell well somebody slipped in the exact same way that he did and crashed into him while he was standing outside of his car calling for help and uh so broke his neck um and then the entire family kind of fell apart immediately afterwards wow.
[4:12] Wow yeah i'm sorry about that that's that's awful so i mean there was nobody particularly at fault um he wasn't drunk the other guy wasn't drunk it was just because you know a lot of times accidents don't really turn out to be accidents if that makes sense.
[4:27] No uh there were blood tests done on both of them he was completely clean so was the driver that hit him it was just bad weather bad luck okay.
[4:37] Okay got it okay and so uh this was you said four and a half years ago.
[4:43] Four and a half years ago yeah all.
[4:46] Right and then.
[4:46] And then uh her mother kind of revealed herself to us and especially me um where i knew that i knew that her mom was kind of crazy uh all along, but she went on this weird little psycho trip where she tried to command legions of people across all families, and it's like, oh, my son, my son, and she never bothered to actually, lift up her daughter.
[5:19] And when you say command legions of members what does that mean in practical terms like what actually happened.
[5:26] Yes okay so uh there was like a a big parade of sympathy and it's not like.
[5:34] I'm sorry when you say parade of sympathy that sounds scornful and i'm just trying to make sure i end up a parade seems sort of fake i mean this was a genuine tragedy and now the family may not have handled it that well but i'm i just need to sort of understand because because you've thought about this stuff for years, I'm just hearing it for the first time. So if you give me a lot of adjectives and words that I'm not sure what they mean, then it's hard for me to follow what you're saying. So just, yeah, if you can tell me sort of what happened rather than your interpretation about it, then I can understand at least the source of your emotions.
[6:07] Understood. So at the moment that this happened, the world entered its lockdown period. and so the funeral was extremely drawn out where they had to have uh like five or six separate funerals over the course of a week and a half uh and it was extremely brutal, uh because they wanted limited people oh okay so they had to.
[6:33] Cycle people in and out because you couldn't gather too many people together at the same time.
[6:36] Correct so yeah so a lot of people gathered and it was extremely brutal on my wife because she had to go to six or seven different funerals with her brother oh yeah she's turning into.
[6:49] Like Giuliani after 9-11 yeah that's rough man.
[6:53] And so uh let me just back up just a smidge here so i as soon as i heard that her brother died i immediately moved into the house she asked me and sorry how long have you guys.
[7:05] Been going out at this point.
[7:06] Three years three.
[7:09] Years okay and this is this isn't the same woman that we talked about last time or is it.
[7:15] No no no i didn't think so okay okay so you've been.
[7:19] Going out for three is and then you move in when her brother dies and she was already living in her brother's house is that right.
[7:24] Yeah they had a special arrangement where he made all the money and paid all the bills and she would just you know clean and cook and and do sort of normal chores and household duties okay.
[7:37] Did he have a family.
[7:39] Yes uh so this is where things get complicated so i'm gonna have to jump around a little bit here but um she was extremely close uh with her brother my wife i mean um and they grew up together always uh they were born in a separate part of the country where the mom and dad were never married and her mom was a serial cheater uh and so we hope that their siblings yeah yes but she looks a lot like her dad uh so i i fully believe that he is her actual biological father okay yeah uh and but he sort of kind of sat in the background and dealt with it and didn't really make any mention of it sorry he sort of.
[8:32] Sat in the background and so he being who in the background of what.
[8:36] Oh sorry the father so the father.
[8:40] Did not particularly seem to react much that the mother was sleeping around his wife.
[8:47] Yes okay, And then her mother, my wife and her brother, their mother, she met a guy when she was about, when my wife was about four or five years old, and then just trounced off to a separate part of the country and married him.
[9:10] So she left the family.
[9:12] She left the family.
[9:13] And she left the kids with your wife's mom? Sorry, dad, dad, right?
[9:19] Correct but no uh correct so they okay got it yeah yeah uh so, they they gave the kids the choice who do you want to stay with and the brother he said i want to go with mom across the country and my wife said i'm just going to go wherever my brother goes, and uh the father drove them both to the airport and then they they left their father and came across the country to here where she the mom entered into a relationship with the man who was abusive towards them both oh.
[10:03] The man that she fell in love with and left the family for was abusive to both the kids.
[10:06] Correct abusive.
[10:09] In what way.
[10:11] Physically uh so he i'm i'm just giving you what i know and my wife she struggles with a little bit of memory loss about this subject uh presumably because she has a touch of ttsd uh and which is undiagnosed but that's my guess and she recalls stories to me about how he was physically abusive like grabbing her arm and throwing her into a wall and screaming at her. And it got to the point where her brother had to physically defend her at some points.
[10:47] Oh, okay. And I assumed that the mother knew about this sort of stuff.
[10:53] Yes. And that's what makes me so angry is she didn't leave the guy. So, but I'm just telling the story the way I know it.
[11:03] Well, she might've enjoyed watching it and she might be sadistic, right?
[11:08] And we're going to get there because it definitely feels like she is sadistic and i i can probably tell you some details about the things that she said and we'll.
[11:16] Get to that but what was the story with your wife's father i mean i assume that he spent some time with his kids did he not know or find out that they were being abused.
[11:29] That's another thing that makes me angry stuff uh he had to have known uh but he did nothing how did he know, because my wife's brother would call him my wife's brother, he actually had a very strong relationship with the father with his father and I don't understand why he didn't just jump on a plane and do something about it, that may be a little bit of too smooth to say.
[12:00] How much older was the brother Yeah.
[12:06] Uh i think he was four years older.
[12:08] Okay and so he was close with his father so when he and his sister were getting abused you don't know why her brother didn't just call the dad and say whoops took a long took a wrong turn at albuquerque and we need to not be here we're gonna come and live with you.
[12:26] Yeah uh you see i i don't want to blame him because he was really young uh obviously like he's less than he's probably 10 years old at this point uh i don't understand why his dad, didn't fly out and yeah.
[12:45] Well sorry do you have confirmation that the father knew and i'm not disagreeing with you maybe he did maybe he didn't but did he know i mean has did the sister or the brother ever say yes we told him or we had bruises all over us when we went to visit him or something like that.
[13:01] So my father-in-law was over a few months ago and he confirmed it.
[13:06] Oh so he confirmed that he knew yes got it okay so uh it doesn't really matter how he knew so he knew and why um why did he not act.
[13:18] That's what infuriates me stefan.
[13:26] Okay we keep talking about your feelings I get that you're upset about this, but I need to get to the facts.
[13:32] I know. I don't know.
[13:34] Okay, so he said, I knew, but he never, and your wife didn't ask him, and he never said, here's why I didn't act.
[13:42] Correct.
[13:42] Okay, got it. So, was it 50-50, or did they mostly, I guess not, if they were asked who they want to live with, so they mostly stayed with the mom, is that right?
[13:53] Yeah, they stayed with the mom. uh he continues to live on the other side of the country and uh we see him every now and then but sorry as kids.
[14:03] That they just stay like 100 of the time with the mom.
[14:07] Correct okay so the dad gave.
[14:11] Up complete custody.
[14:12] Yes why, he was already involved with another woman soon after. Uh, and now my wife has a half brother.
[14:26] Oh, so he dumped his kids so he could get laid.
[14:30] Yeah.
[14:31] Okay. Got it. Sorry. It's a dirt bag. You don't give up your kids cause you got a new girlfriend, right?
[14:38] Correct.
[14:39] Okay. So I'm not sure why this guy's in your life at all, but we'll get to that.
[14:45] Yeah, I'm sure we will. Uh, uh, so there she stayed uh my wife uh when she was a kid and eventually of course, her mom and this guy this asshole they break up and she immediately marries another guy and my wife starts to realize a pattern with her mom where she keeps on dumping guys and getting with somebody who has more money yeah.
[15:14] Hypergamy 101 sure.
[15:15] Yep uh And she realizes that this is not like model relationship behavior, but she also recognizes a pattern where the male figures in her life keep on disappearing, abandoning her, and, well, just not living up to the standards of what a, I guess, what a real man should be, if that makes sense.
[15:43] No. Can you tell me what you mean?
[15:47] Oh um i i'm jumping ahead of myself again, so she already feels like her father is abandoning her her but that's not a feeling her father.
[15:58] Abandoned her yeah.
[15:59] Yep absolutely and her mother doesn't seem to care about her or the family she doesn't want to keep the father in the life or she was the.
[16:09] Mother getting child support from the father.
[16:11] Yes okay.
[16:13] So they're cash cows in a way right.
[16:15] Yeah absolutely i'm.
[16:18] Sure she was getting more child support than she was spending on the kids so okay.
[16:25] So the only stable male figure in her life is her brother and he becomes extremely successful, just doing his trade job stuff he's able to buy the house and he's.
[16:40] Looking after her we just exited the last time i met the brother he was 10 now he's like an adult with a trade so what happened in their teenage years nobody ever told the dad nobody ever told anyone else neither of the two kids right correct okay and nobody knows why right, that's right i assume because the dad wouldn't have done anything.
[17:04] And still hasn't and still won't.
[17:06] Well it's too late now but all right okay so okay so teenage years he so brother goes on to become a successful tradesman okay and then.
[17:16] Yep and uh so he's looking after my now wife and life is going pretty okay until he dies tragically.
[17:27] And sorry um just was he late 20s early 30s you don't have to give me the exact year but roughly how old was he late 20s late 20s okay uh did he uh and he had a family Is that right?
[17:43] No, he was single.
[17:46] Okay. Something a bit odd about that. Something a bit odd about, did he date much?
[17:56] I'm told that he dated a little bit, but he was very secretive about it.
[18:03] Okay.
[18:05] But as far as we know, nobody showed up to his funeral carrying flowers and saying, yeah, I was the last guy that he dated. Nothing like that.
[18:17] Yeah, it seems a bit odd that the brother would not really date, but have his sister almost perform the functions of a wife, obviously outside of the physical, right, the romantic, but that he would have his sister perform the functions of a wife, but he himself wouldn't really date. Because you said she took room and board in exchange for housekeeping, right?
[18:45] That's exactly right. And I always thought that was weird myself.
[18:51] Okay.
[18:52] But there was never any, like, inclination that anything untoward was happening.
[18:57] Oh, no, no. I'm not trying to say anything about that. I mean, obviously, I'm not saying that there's any sort of incest, but I am saying that it does seem a bit odd. It seems stuck in the past, in a way. Or having relationships so that you don't have, like, having pre-existing relationships so you don't have to navigate new relationships.
[19:19] Right. It's almost like they were playing family because they were trying to mimic something that they never really had themselves.
[19:26] Yeah, I think there's a stuckness to that because, I mean, obviously siblings should be close and all of that. But I don't know about you. You know, you perform the non-physical or non-romantic functions of a wife and I'll pay you a room and board. And, you know, maybe you could do that for a little bit after college or early 20s, but by the time your wife's in her mid-20s and her brother is in his late 20s, if there's still not much dating going on on his side, it does start to look a bit odd, to me, anyway.
[19:55] Yeah, for sure, for sure. But he was always a really good guy. You know, I would come over, we would drink some beers together, play video games. He was just really focused on work and making money. I mean the guy even before becoming 30 he was just taking money hand over fist like he was already a bloody journeyman he was a really nice guy a really sweet hardworking guy that's why I miss him but.
[20:24] Sorry hardworking for what what did he work hard for?
[20:31] I mean normally men.
[20:32] Work hard for their their families right.
[20:35] For their thing.
[20:35] Or or at least to to to date you know they work hard to date so what was he and i'm you know i'm just curious like what was he working hard for.
[20:44] Um uh i'm i'm going to have to guess uh but based on what he spent his money on it was mostly just uh well he spent money on the house and then he would spend a whole bunch of money creating a home theater in the basement you know video games big giant audio system tv all that stuck.
[21:09] In teenage life.
[21:10] Right okay got it, all right um so this this whole i'm sorry what time of.
[21:23] Day was the sorry to interrupt what time of day was the car crash was it nighttime.
[21:26] Yeah it was late at night.
[21:29] Okay and he was doing a job right.
[21:33] Yeah he was on his way home from uh uh doing a hospital job.
[21:37] Right so workaholism contributed to his death right.
[21:41] Correct because.
[21:43] He wouldn't he shouldn't have been working that time of night right.
[21:46] Well he shouldn't been i i would often stay over at this house and he would be up at three o'clock in the morning getting into his car and driving off in the snow, i i even told my wife that it was too much, all right yeah sorry go ahead no i i just i i have to calm down a bit because i'm i'm nervous about uh she knows that i'm talking to you today and she's uh fully well aware of what we're going to be talking about but uh it's still okay uh anyway so the funeral happens, and I'm immediately, it's not that this job of being the new sort of male figure in my wife's life is thrust upon me.
[22:46] I asked for it. I volunteered for it. It's what I wanted. And I watched as her family sort of congregated around this whole, tragedy and it became the mom show uh and it's.
[23:07] It's the only thing yeah i feel like i need to keep saying this over and over again what does the mom show mean i don't know i mean i know it's like narcissistic kind of whatever making it all about herself and so on but i'm just begging you see here's the thing i'll sort of tell you why i do this right so you have a narrative about what's happening we all do we all have a narrative about everything that happens because we can't re-experience things directly right so we all have a story or a narrative about what happened so they're the facts and then there's a story about it there's nothing wrong with it we are you know meaning making machines as the saying goes and we we create we create morals and stories and extract things out of what happened. Now, so you keep telling me your story about what happened, right? Which is fine, except that the problem is that whatever story it is about what's happening in your life isn't working.
[24:04] Right.
[24:04] Because if it was working, you wouldn't be calling me. So basically, you're going to the doctor and you're saying, I'm in a huge amount of pain, right? And the doctor says, well, where does it hurt? And you say, well, it doesn't hurt here. It doesn't hurt here. Here's no problem. And at some point, what's the doctor going to say?
[24:25] Why are you talking to me?
[24:27] Don't tell me where it doesn't hurt. So the problem has something to do with your narrative about life. Right? So some moral, some story that you have is not working for you. So if you keep telling me your stories rather than the facts.
[24:48] Then all I'm hearing is what's not working. And I don't have any facts to compare it to. so you know when you sort of it's a parade of sympathy and you know it's the mom show and all of that these are all you know fairly scathing conclusions i assume about your selfish mother-in-law is that fair to say yes absolutely okay but if you're just going to give me your conclusions philosophy cannot help you because philosophy is supposed to be about the truth now your conclusions may be true but they may not be true but if all i hear about is your conclusions i don't know what's true or not. All I know is what you are saying, the morals and the stories that you have generated about the events. Whereas if you tell me what the events are, right? Like, if someone says to me, well, I have a problem in my marriage because my wife is cheating on me, right? Okay, well, that sounds pretty bad, right? So, of course, it's a problem in your marriage if your wife is cheating on you. But if I say, well, what happened? Give me the facts, right? and well no hang on let me finish my part here so if some guy says my wife's cheating on me it's a big problem I say oh well what happened now if he says well I found her in bed with another man okay then she's cheating on him right but if he says I caught her looking at another man at the mall right.
[26:09] Then his narrative that she's cheating on him is incorrect right right So that's why I keep saying, what are the facts?
[26:21] And it's tough to get out of a narrative, but narrative is also habitual thinking. We actually start to think more originally when we look at the facts, right? So just tell me what happened and try to stay away from the moral or narrative interpretation of what happened, because then all I'm doing is I'm seeing your story about what happened. I'm not... It's like, if there's a trial, do you want a verbal description or do you want video evidence?
[26:52] I want video evidence.
[26:53] Why?
[26:56] Because it proves that what happened and what's being described...
[26:59] But you get to decide for yourself.
[27:02] Right?
[27:04] You get to decide for yourself. Like, I'm sure you've heard every single... It seems like almost every other woman who breaks up with a guy has to say he was a controlling, narcissistic X, Y, and Z, right? But then if you actually ask what happened, it's like, okay, then it's usually quite different from the description. So that's why I'm going to keep nagging you to just let me start with the facts. because otherwise I don't have anything to compare what you're saying to.
[27:30] You are absolutely right, and I completely agree with you, and I'm sorry about that.
[27:33] No, it's fine, it's fine. Go ahead. Okay, so we went through the series of funerals, and now?
[27:40] Yes. So the story I wanted to give, it occurred very soon after the funerals where my wife's mother, She's putting on, I don't even know what you would call it. She held a kind of posthumous celebration day for my wife.
[28:06] Something like that. Okay. Yeah, like a celebration of the life of the guy who died.
[28:12] Yes. And during this, she gives a speech to the crowd in which she, I'm going to, I'm going to tell you sort of what I remember her saying and what my wife thought of it. So her speech was something like, you know, moms and their sons and fathers and their daughters. We just have a special connection with our opposite sex sons. Almost kind of implying that she loved her son more than her daughter.
[28:46] Okay. The first part is what she said. And the second part is a narrative, right? So a special bond just means it's different. And, of course, a relationship between a mother-daughter and a mother-son is going to be different. Now, the mother-daughter has the special bond because they share the same sex, right? Whereas the mother-son is a special, they have to say it's a special bond, right? Because they don't share the same sex, they have less in common, and therefore there's just a different kind of bond. Whether this means I love more or less is a matter of speculation. situation and of course this is a woman who's buried her son and she's quite emotional so let's just you know i'm i would aim to be as charitable as possible with without saying that what you're saying is wrong but let's not get into the implications just just stay with the facts so she said a mother and a son have a special bond right okay and that's because the mother and the daughter automatically have a special bond because they share the same sex but she's saying there's also a special bond for the son uh that's not as obvious but anyway go on yes.
[29:53] And so So I'm holding my wife as she says this, and my wife immediately starts crying. And she only explained to me later that that was her interpretation of it, that she loved her son more than her.
[30:09] Sorry, this was four and a half years ago, four years ago, and changed, right?
[30:14] Yeah, yeah.
[30:15] Okay, so your wife is in her mid-20s, right?
[30:18] Yes.
[30:19] So why the fuck would you think her mother loves either of them since her mother kept exposing them to abusive men? Maybe I'm missing something.
[30:27] No, no, no. You have it exactly right. And that is exactly how I try to put it to her sometimes when I'm trying to describe just the deepness of her mother's neglect.
[30:43] Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by neglect. if i if i keep bringing dogs home that chew the shit out of my children and bite them is that neglect.
[30:57] I suppose it's active abuse, isn't it?
[31:00] Well, it's not neglect. Neglect is when you ignore your children, not when you bring men into the house who throw them against walls. That's not neglect. I mean, sorry, unless we're using some different terms.
[31:16] No, no, I actually appreciate the clarification. This is extremely helpful. So her mother is bringing abusers into the home. so how does she care about anybody how does she care about her children at all.
[31:30] Well generally we abuse people we hate, and the mother didn't just bring the abuser into the home she left the father, moved across the country and the children came to live with her and she kept them there while being abused by the man she pursued, so she pursued and stayed with and fucked a man who beat the shit out of her children okay that's not neglect but anyway okay so still not sure why the mom was in anybody's life unless there'd been some massive reform and therapy and apologies and tears and restitution and but i assume not right no.
[32:10] Nothing and that's actually part of the reason why i'm calling is because i've been trying to get her into therapy and i feel guilty myself for not making it happen mm-hmm.
[32:21] What do you mean so what do you mean making it happen you gotta force her into therapy.
[32:27] Uh sorry come again.
[32:28] But you can't force her into therapy i make it happen how do you make it happen.
[32:32] No no i can't but what i can do is find phone numbers find out what her benefits cover give her the phone numbers call the office ask them if they're taking new clients and these are.
[32:44] All things that i've done no no that's that's not even particularly wise Because if you do all the work, then she is not as motivated. okay so is it fair to say let's go back let's go back four and a half years so how long have you been how long have you known your wife in total.
[33:05] Uh almost eight years now.
[33:06] Okay almost eight years so uh four and a half years ago you're three and a half years into the relationship and how long have you been listening to what i did.
[33:16] Oh uh geez uh longer uh 10 years probably.
[33:22] Okay so you uh land into this family with a highly toxic dysfunctional and abusive structure you have a father who abandoned his children and a mother who brought as far as i remember more than one last i heard was two abusers into the house where she had trapped her children and, let him, or maybe even encouraged the men to go after her children. Is that fair to say?
[33:49] Yes. It was only one, though. But yeah.
[33:51] Oh, I'm so sorry. So she was with the one guy. I thought she brought another guy in, but he wasn't sorry. First guy, it didn't work out. She brought another guy in, but the second guy wasn't abusive. Is that right?
[34:02] Second guy's okay, yes.
[34:03] Second guy's okay. And how long were her children with the abusive guy?
[34:08] I have my notes right here. 10 years.
[34:12] Oh, okay. So, pretty much their childhood.
[34:18] Yeah.
[34:21] Okay, because you said the brother was 10, so that's past his childhood. I guess your wife was like 5 or 6, and so that brings her to mid-teens, right? Which is most of her childhood, right?
[34:33] Yes, exactly.
[34:34] So, 10 years. Okay. Yeah. So both parents knew that the children were being violently assaulted. And did your wife ever indicate or did you get a sense from her brother how often these attacks would occur?
[34:51] They didn't talk about it. They kind of just left it in the past. When I met my wife, she'd already been living with her brother and they were just living together here. And so, no, they never really talked about it. The only time when they did talk about it was when I brought it up. But they mentioned that it was seldom, but, you know, once a month is still horrific. But once every six months is, you can't say that that's not equally horrific.
[35:27] So, what I'm...
[35:28] So, the answer is you don't know, right?
[35:31] The answer is I don't know.
[35:33] That's fine. That's fine. It's fine that we don't know. I just was wondering if there was knowledge there. Okay. And do you know why the mother left the abusive man?
[35:46] Uh so the story i'm told from my wife is that she just found another guy who had more money.
[35:55] All right yes you mentioned okay all right all right so so she was with this guy this guy made more money than your wife's biological father is that right the abusive guy.
[36:08] Yeah by a lot okay.
[36:10] So she basically let him beat up her children in return for money, correct okay so why are you so you meet your wife eight eight years ago and i assume you fairly quickly find out some aspects of this history right, absolutely okay so why are you breaking bread with this woman why are you at any social events where she is like i'm trying to follow this part so.
[36:39] I'm not uh i've actually i haven't seen her in over two years now because i refuse to be in the same house or the same.
[36:46] Room so so that's i don't know what you're doing with that response we're talking eight years ago saying well i was with her for six years but for the last two years i haven't doesn't answer the first six years yes.
[36:59] Uh and so i i'm i'm not saying that i'm completely absolved.
[37:06] No i'm not trying to attack you or or make you feel bad i'm just i'm genuinely curious right you've been listening to the show for a long time, and you come across a woman who is responsible for the love of your life, getting beaten up as a child repeatedly, or thrown against walls, or I don't know how, assaulted, right? And you're not part of normie world, right? You're not in the matrix, because you've listened to what I do. So, I'm just trying to understand what your thinking was in hanging out with these people, like the mom, for six years off and on.
[37:43] All right maybe maybe you can walk me through this i i always hated this one, because i watched the ways that she spoke to and about my now wife uh oh so she was still nasty.
[37:56] Even when your wife was in the dark right.
[38:00] Yes and before how am i in.
[38:02] Thank you oh no your wife so your wife is late late 20s now right early 30s.
[38:09] Late 20s.
[38:10] Okay got it got it okay so so you didn't like the mother of your girlfriend right.
[38:19] Correct okay.
[38:20] So but you still would see her.
[38:28] It was very very small moments like basically once a year on Christmas or Thanksgiving giving or something like that and i would not speak to her and i would leave eat like early and okay.
[38:45] How often was this woman in contact with your girlfriend at the time.
[38:50] Uh they would speak about once a month okay.
[38:54] And what was your girlfriend's perspective on her mother.
[38:57] She hates her okay.
[39:00] So you both hate her so why did you suggest at some point like have it out with her or you don't need to see her or this woman is unrepentant child abuser i mean did you have those conversations years and years ago with your then girlfriend.
[39:14] Yes absolutely and what did she say that that's this is the reason why i'm calling you Stef i hate to be so blunt but uh she continues to talk to her mother uh and it infuriates me to no end and there's a really good reason for this. So when her brother died, he had a great life insurance policy. He left us the house, as I've said, and her mother took power of attorney because she was the witness to his will or whatever you call that, and kind of stole the house out from under us and took legal ownership of it.
[39:56] I'm sorry, sorry. I'm a little confused. who who did so your brother-in-law had a will right yes okay and who did he leave stuff to, my wife so if he left and who was the beneficiary of his life insurance.
[40:17] It would have been my wife it is.
[40:19] It is your wife so he left the house and his life insurance to your wife yes so how does your mother end up did she take the life insurance money as well or just the house.
[40:33] She took everything. And that's the question. So we've been struggling to find a lawyer where we can properly try and get this all sorted. But my wife is reticent to actually do anything about it because she's afraid of opening up the can of worms and having to fight with her mother in court of law.
[40:53] Okay, so then why not just walk away and move on with your life and leave all of that shitstorm behind?
[41:01] You mean the two of us, right? Yeah. yeah that's exactly what i keep recommending uh but if you don't want to.
[41:10] Fight then leave but to stay around is and not fight that's kind of weird like you if your house is burning down you fight the fire or you get out of the house you don't just stand there while it burns you down.
[41:27] Yes and this is what's driving me insane is because i want to do something about it like either let's fight or let's flee and i i can't understand this this idea of sticking around with this horrible woman hanging over our necks all the time i.
[41:45] Mean has she kicked you out of your brother-in-law's house.
[41:48] No uh well i don't i don't think she can but uh if she would she could she He doesn't like me very much.
[41:59] Yeah, I still don't know. I mean, there's a death. You go to the will. The will is read. The deed to the house goes to your wife. And the life insurance is paid into your wife's bank account. I still don't understand how mom gets anything.
[42:15] Yeah, well, you're as confused as I am, because I keep trying to figure this out for myself, but I get no answers.
[42:22] Oh, so you've talked, I mean, there was a lawyer involved, I assume, in the disposition of your brother-in-law's estate. Is that right?
[42:28] Yes.
[42:28] And he says, I have no idea how your mom ended up with all the money and the deed to the house.
[42:38] If I could give you an answer.
[42:39] No, no, but you've said you've tried to figure this out, right? So you've talked to the lawyer who was responsible for the disposition of your brother-in-law's assets in the will or probate process, right?
[42:52] Yes. So her mother, my mother-in-law, was given power of attorney, and she holds the legal ownership of the house that we now live in.
[43:01] So, oh, so in the will, I don't, again, I'm not a lawyer, obviously, so I don't really know how this stuff works, but I'm not sure why there's power of attorney in a will where the property goes to your wife.
[43:15] Right, you are. And that's why we suspect her of committing massive fraud against my wife and stealing her house.
[43:24] Again, I'm not an expert, but I don't know how if it says my life insurance in the house goes to my sister. Oh, so do you think that your mother-in-law might have, this is all theory, right? We don't know for a fact. Is your suspicion that your mother-in-law forged a new will and said, and forged the signature of your brother-in-law where the will said, my insurance of the house goes to my mother?
[43:49] That's right. And I'm really sorry for drawing that out. I'm not a legal expert either, and I don't understand the linguistics, but yes, yes, that is the suspicion.
[43:57] Okay, so is it the case that your wife has a copy of your brother's will that contradicts what your mother and the lawyer are working with?
[44:08] Correct.
[44:09] Okay, got it. So then you would have to go to the lawyer and say, the mother-in-law has forged a signature and forged a will. It's fake. I have the original computer. I have what it was written on. I have the original will. I assume that the lawyer has the original will. And I guess the mother-in-law said, no, no, no, there was a new will that was never filed with the lawyer or something like that. Again, we're just theorizing here, right? So the mother said, oh no, here's the new will, he only gave it to me, here's his signature, and this will supersedes the last will, right?
[44:47] Yes, that's exactly right.
[44:48] Got it. Okay. Yeah, that's pretty ugly. That's pretty ugly. And I, of course, I don't know what the standard of proof is, right? I mean, I don't know what the standard of proof is for these kinds of things. I mean, I guess most people can come in and say, oh, here's a piece of paper I printed out, and here's my signature, here's the brother-in-law's signature, this supersedes the will. I suppose it was never filed with the lawyer, so maybe it's a bit suspect that way, but I guess if the mother-in-law has swooped in saying the property and the money in the household goes to me, then who knows, right? I mean, that is something I guess you would have to fight in court.
[45:34] Exactly. And so, not to beat a dead horse here, but you can kind of see where my frustration and my narrative comes from when I've witnessed all of this.
[45:43] So I guess it was a surprise. Sorry to interrupt. So the house and the money was supposed to come to your wife, but then it went to your mother and where, I guess, was your wife not informed that there was a, quote, new will, wherein everything went to the mom and.
[46:00] Uh she knew but she didn't sign any document.
[46:03] Well i don't know that she would have to because it would be the i guess maybe somebody else would be the witness yeah i don't i don't know i mean generally i think if there's if there's a will with the lawyer the lawyer has verified it right i think if somebody else comes waltzing in with a another will uh i think it's pretty suspect isn't it because if if somebody's completely rewriting their will they would absolutely Like, if your brother-in-law had rewritten his will to leave everything to the mother instead of his sister, then he would have made sure that it would have been, you know, co-signed by the lawyer. It would have been stamped, you know, like affidavit style or whatever. It would have been the whole paperwork. The old will would have been thrown out. I guess everyone would have been informed.
[46:47] So if there is a will lodged with the lawyer where the signatures are all verified because the lawyer actually sat across from your brother-in-law and accepted the will, I think if somebody comes waltzing in, hey, I've got a new will, and it's never been registered, the lawyer's never seen it before, and nobody can really verify the signature, and nobody has witnessed it. It seems to be, again, I'm obviously no lawyer, right? But in a sort of common sense way, that would seem to be pretty suspect. Like, why would the brother-in-law have a will with a lawyer, and then have another new will that only the mother knew about, and the lawyer didn't know about, and your sister hadn't been informed, right? I mean, it just, it wouldn't make, it wouldn't, and that there had been no, I assume there'd be no big rift between your wife and her brother, so it wouldn't really make sense that everything would change in that way. But yeah, again, I mean, I suppose that gets battled out in court or something like that, in which case, you know, you get to keep some stuff, but a whole bunch of money goes to lawyers, right?
[47:50] Exactly. And so it has to be one of three options. Either there was a fake will and there's massive fraud going on, or my wife had no idea what was happening and she just signed away something. Well, she didn't sign anything away, but she let something go that she had no idea about. uh well or i'm just completely stupid and i'm making up a crazy conspiracy theory about her mom.
[48:20] Well no hang on so again we're just looking at this from non-lawyers this is a common sense thing right so your wife has a copy of a will because i assume that her brother has said to her listen should anything happen to me the house and the life insurance goes to you right, correct okay so the lawyer has a copy of the will and the life insurance company has a copy of the beneficiary of the life insurance right these are these are two places where there's a formal registration of the benefits on death is that right yes okay so did the and so the wife managed to get both the insurance and the house right so she managed to convince people that she was the beneficiary, even though, or maybe she was given power of attorney so that she would then give the property to your wife, but she didn't. Or maybe it was something like that.
[49:16] That's exactly right. Yeah. The promise was that eventually, ooh, sweetheart, eventually, when you're able to look after a house, I'll give it back to you, but not yet. And that was like half a decade.
[49:26] Oh, okay. So maybe the power of attorney is your mother-in-law gets to hold on to the property with the goal of giving it to, your wife. But then, of course, I wouldn't understand. I mean, again, I'm no lawyer. I have to keep repeating this because it's important. I don't know what I'm talking about.
[49:45] I know.
[49:45] But no, it seems to me that it would be odd, given that I assume that the brother didn't hugely trust the mother because the mother brought a guy around who beat half the crap out of the kids for half a decade or more. And so I'm not sure why the property would then go to the mother in order to get to your wife. And all of this was, I guess, how long after the death four and a half years ago, did the property end up with your mother-in-law?
[50:14] Immediately. And this story gets even more interesting because it was just a few years ago where I had somebody from the bank knocking at my front door, asking if they could come in and take pictures. And when I asked them why and on whose behalf this was being done, he said, oh, it's my mother-in-law's name.
[50:34] Oh, she wants to sell the place, right?
[50:37] Well, she's looking for like a remortgaging. And so I said, no, God. So, sorry, I'm getting angry again. So she's stealing my wife's future is how it feels to me. And I don't understand why I can't convince my wife to do anything about it is why I'm so frustrated. Sorry, I'm calming down.
[51:03] Right. I don't mind if you get emotional or frustrated or angry. I can understand that.
[51:09] All right.
[51:10] Okay.
[51:11] But you have one where you're coming from.
[51:12] And what about your father-in-law? I mean, I guess the two men, right? I mean, the one she remarried and then your mother's biological father, has she appealed to them for any help in this situation?
[51:27] Yes uh so i managed to convince him to finance a lawyer for us him being biological or stepfather, biological biological father okay yeah because we revealed to him this mistrust and the feeling that we have that uh my wife's mother is committing fraud against us and ruining our future, and uh he said that he would finance a lawyer so that's good and but then, that was about four months ago oh.
[52:00] Gosh so four years after the situation.
[52:04] Yeah well i i've been harping on this for years and nothing's getting done and i felt like well if no one's going to do anything about this then i have to because if i don't do anything then what kind of a piece of shit husband am I?
[52:18] Like, clearly I'm not doing enough. So I have to make stuff. I have to make something happen. I have to do it. And so I spoke to him. He said that he would call a lawyer. He has one. Okay. And now he's reneging on the deal and saying that he's actually using the money to spend it on Christmas presents. And I don't know what to do with that piece of shit anymore. I'm so infuriated and so finished.
[52:49] I'm sorry, are you broke? Is there a reason why you can't spend a couple of grand on having a lawyer assess the situation?
[52:56] We don't have enough saved. You might remember from last conversation that I went through a serious illness and it prevented me from working. I'm working again now, but it's been taking us It's quite a while to get back up to standard.
[53:13] I mean, have you had to pay rent for the last however long? I mean, how long has your wife been living in your brother-in-law's place?
[53:25] Probably 10 years now.
[53:26] Okay, so she's had 10 years rent-free.
[53:31] Uh well she's paying now and of course after he died we we have to pay the the fees and the all that stuff.
[53:39] Sorry what do you mean by fees you mean like property taxes and stuff, yeah yeah but she's lived rent free for 10 years yeah okay so she saved i don't know i mean i can't even imagine you know how how much money right but you know let's say it's two grand a month, It's 24,000 over 10, 24,000 a year. So she saved a quarter million dollars at least by living rent free for 10 years. It would be 1% of that money to, I would imagine, to get a lawyer to look into this.
[54:13] Yeah, she's not very good with money. And neither am I, to be honest with you.
[54:17] Well, maybe that's why the mother-in-law doesn't want to give you the money.
[54:21] Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough.
[54:24] So is she a spender? Where does the money go?
[54:29] Oh yeah uh she she buys a whole lot of unnecessary crap.
[54:35] Uh right why does she do that do you think.
[54:41] Um well we've talked about it a little bit uh quite a lot actually uh she's trying to well she buys a whole bunch of small little things toys, knickknacks, and she jokes about it that she's trying to reclaim the childhood that she lost when her parents constantly told her no.
[55:05] Wait she buys toys for herself?
[55:09] Yeah like what?
[55:11] Let go?
[55:14] Well yeah I mean It's action figures, little plushies, stuff like that.
[55:24] So she's in her late 20s and she's buying kids toys for herself.
[55:29] That's right.
[55:30] I'm not sure that's super funny. What's going on with that? That seems odd.
[55:38] I think we both share the same kind of desperation to reclaim the childhood.
[55:44] Okay, you use that phrase, and I'm sorry for my ignorance, but I'm not sure what it means, reclaim childhood. You can't. I mean, there's no time machine, right?
[55:56] Yes i i understand um so for her it's like well i could never afford this when i was a kid because i didn't have any money and my parents always told me no but now that i'm a i'm an adult and i'm working full time i can afford to buy this stupid toy that i can snuggle with at night.
[56:19] Okay. So she buys action figures because, I mean, you know, if your parents couldn't afford diapers, that doesn't mean you wear them as an adult to show them that you've completed your childhood, right?
[56:35] No, look, I'm with you, man. I'm not disagreeing with anything you're saying.
[56:39] Okay, how pretty is she?
[56:45] Like, supermodel. Like, unbelievably beautiful.
[56:48] Okay. So you've obviously made some trade-offs, right? Because she's not assertive. She doesn't listen to you. She buys action figures. She wastes money. She hasn't saved anything despite 10 years rent-free. She won't fight her mother, and she won't let you or whatever, right? So, you like the fact that she's super pretty, and I'm not sure what the frustration is, right?
[57:15] Like, you've done a trade, right? So, you've given up personal qualities for the sake of physical attractiveness.
[57:23] No, she's, well, she's actually extremely caring and giving and nurturing, and she's very emotionally open and intelligent, despite all of the past stuff. so what i sense in her is something grander than what her i don't know.
[57:42] Okay so hang on so you've been driven crazy for almost half a decade right because her mother has stolen probably i don't know a million dollars from her right by by your estimation i don't know for sure or not right but by your estimation you think that there's a good likelihood that the mother has run off with about a million dollars, give or take, right?
[58:05] That's right.
[58:06] Okay. So this has been driving you crazy. And if your wife is really caring, then she should want to alleviate your suffering, right? By making a decision.
[58:21] Yep.
[58:22] Okay. So how is it that she's watching you go slowly nuts, twisting in the wind over this potential or suspected theft of a million dollars or so for half a decade, and she hasn't made any decisive action to either leave it behind or pursue it legally, because it's been driving you crazy, right? So where's the caring? If something was driving my wife crazy day after day, week after week, month after month, and I just let it go on, how is that caring?
[58:53] Right, and that's why I'm calling you now, because I don't even understand it.
[58:57] No, no, sorry. You said she's caring. I'm not disagreeing with you, but what you've told me so far is not evidence of caring, but the opposite. Does it bother you that she buys action toys?
[59:13] Yes.
[59:14] Have you suggested that this is not the best way to get over a bad childhood?
[59:19] Yes.
[59:20] Okay. You said she cares. Does she listen? Does she ask you more? Does she listen to your wisdom? Or does she just go and buy more action toys and plushies?
[59:32] Sometimes she does. Most times, no.
[59:34] Okay, so she's not listening. She's not caring about your opinion. She's doing what she wants. She's not listening to you about how to deal with the mother-in-law. She's doing what she wants and feels comfortable with in the moment, right?
[59:50] That's right, yeah. Okay.
[59:51] So give me an example of the caring thing. I'm not saying there isn't one. I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying I'm a little lost in the woods here about the whole, my wife is so caring thing. So if you could set me straight or give me a path to follow, I'd appreciate it.
[1:00:05] Okay. Well, when I was sick, she went to work. She worked super hard and made all the money, paid all the bills and took care of me when I was at home, laying on the couch and unable to move. I feel like that's a pretty good example.
[1:00:24] Yep, I think that's good. Now, the problem with taking care of someone is it's not a negotiation. And you don't have to surrender something to the other person's will or expertise.
[1:00:36] Okay.
[1:00:38] I mean, I'm not putting your mother, sorry, I'm not putting your wife in the same category as my mother, but my mother was an excellent nurse when I was sick. it's just when i disagreed with her or wanted her to do something she didn't want to do in the moment that she got kind of irascible right so again i'm not i'm just saying it's certainly possible that that she took care of you but that's not quite the same as caring about you, caring about someone really shows up when they disagree with you or they're telling you to do something that you don't want to do then that's where the caring of the trust comes in.
[1:01:11] Right, yeah. Yeah, because the last thing you want is to actually have that conversation. What you want is to just be on the same page, be able to maneuver this life together.
[1:01:21] Well, you needed to be taken care of, and she was happy to take care of you, and that's a nice thing. But that's not the same as caring for you. Taking care of you is, you know, like my mother, you know, when I was, you know, at a fever or whatever, she'd mop my brow and bring me some soup and so on. But that's because I was no threat to her. I wasn't disagreeing with her. I wasn't telling her to deal with stuff she didn't want to deal with. I wasn't, you know, contradicting her. I was just someone you could take care of. You know, we took in a lot of wounded animals when I was a kid, and my mom was pretty good with them, right? Pretty patient, because they weren't any threat to her. So it's when you're doing well and disagreeing with her that the caring really kicks in, if that makes sense. I'm not trying to wave away the other stuff. I'm just saying it's not quite the same because you were both in alignment there. You needed to be taken care of. She was willing to take care of you. And that's good, but that's not the same as caring about you. Caring for you is not the same as caring about you and your thoughts. In other words, if you say something, I mean, does your wife recognize that just sort of hanging around waiting for the mom to take out a loan on the house, if that's right, sitting around doing all of that kind of stuff, neither trying to stand up for what your brother-in-law wanted, or walk away from the whole situation and start life anew, that sort of hanging around in this limbo, does she sort of recognize that that's not ideal?
[1:02:46] I have had many conversations.
[1:02:49] Does she recognize that, not what you've said?
[1:02:51] No no she she knows she sees it but she refuses to do anything about it right.
[1:02:56] Okay so that's not.
[1:02:58] Caring to.
[1:02:58] You that's not caring about you.
[1:03:01] Oh yes yes and i just wanted to add that she finds it too scary to deal with and so that's why she avoids it because it's painful for her.
[1:03:12] But that's what courage is for i mean obviously right, Courage is for when you know you need to do something, even when it's scary, right?
[1:03:21] Yes, absolutely.
[1:03:22] Okay, so she does lack courage in that area. I'm not saying in every area, but she lacks courage. She won't, she won't. And she also has this sentimentality, like crying at the brother's funeral, because she thinks that the mom loves the brother more than her.
[1:03:35] Yes.
[1:03:35] Okay, that's a little on the over-sentimental side, in my opinion.
[1:03:41] Okay. and it's it's frustrating for me because i see i see the potential of a woman who is hiding within her that she refuses to let come out because she doesn't have the.
[1:03:57] Courage to allow it you've known her for eight years there's no woman hiding in there this is what you got that don't you can't be with someone for their potential right you've got a kid right oh no you're trying to have kids So she is who she is And she ain't going to change I mean, She's going to come out of her shell Any day soon After 3,200 days Or whatever it is Don't worry 3,201 she's going to be a completely different person.
[1:04:31] Well, so, I'm not going to leave her.
[1:04:34] No, no, no. I'm not saying leave her. I never said, where did you get that from? I'm saying accept her. I'm saying the opposite of leave her. You're kind of half leaving her by wanting her to be someone different, and she's going to come into her own any day, and she's going to, you know, find that courage, right? She is who she is. I'm saying accept her, not leave her. To me, it's an act of being unfaithful, to be with someone to some degree in the hopes that they're going to be different.
[1:05:05] Ah, I see.
[1:05:06] That's a form of infidelity.
[1:05:09] Gotcha. Okay, well, I love this woman so much. I think I can manage that.
[1:05:17] Okay, and again, not disagreeing with you anything, help me understand what it is that you love about her. I mean, her looks and all of that, it's not really, I mean, that's lust, right? And it's nothing wrong with that, but it's not really the same as love. So what is it that you love about her?
[1:05:31] And her looks are not the reason that I'm with her. She's actually just a kind, sweet woman who just, she's not overly bombastic. She's very humble. She's very conservative, if you can call it that. And she just wants to be. She doesn't want to change the world or do anything crazy. she just loves being with me i i don't know it's you're asking me why i love the woman i love and i i'm struggling even now uh.
[1:06:07] I just love me for 10 years plus right so you know you know this is a real question right love is our involuntary response to virtues if we're virtuous right so the things that you must love about her the most is her virtues.
[1:06:23] All right. She's nurturing, loving, kind, intelligent. She's so sweet. And she cares about what I do. She uplifts me. She makes my life easier by, not in this way, you know, the particular way that we're talking about right now, but in general, she makes my life easier on the day-to-day, in the small things, the little things. And it's invaluable.
[1:06:58] All right. That's fine. Okay, so tell me about the coldness that we started talking about, the lack of physical affection that's going on at the moment.
[1:07:07] Oh, okay.
[1:07:08] You said she has good reason for it and I'm just trying to figure out. Well, I'm not trying to figure out because I can't make these things up. So tell me what is the reason why she's physically cold or distant at the moment.
[1:07:20] All right so once again at the top i do not blame her for this i'm not mad but she has been physically distant from me for quite a while how long and, ever since her brother died so four and a half years oh gosh so for more than half.
[1:07:38] Your relationship she's been fairly cold and distant physically.
[1:07:41] That's right okay.
[1:07:46] Sweet and loving and cold and distant don't particularly mix.
[1:07:50] In the same jar.
[1:07:51] But all right, I'm willing to suspend my disbelief and go forward in the journey. So, okay, so what's been going on? So tell me, how does the distance or the coldness manifest? How do you know it's there?
[1:08:05] All right. So believe it or not, Stef, she actually is, you know, she nestles with me on the couch and stuff like that but there's there's no real like cuddling intimacy there's no, like we have sex about once a month or something like that and i'm sorry and that's been the.
[1:08:25] Case before and a half years.
[1:08:27] Yes you've.
[1:08:30] Had like sex 50 times in the last half decade.
[1:08:33] Something like that yeah holy crap, yeah and she.
[1:08:39] Knows i'm sorry sorry to interrupt uh before early on in the relationship how how was your sexual frequency uh.
[1:08:48] Two times a day so and three or four times a week something like that.
[1:08:55] And how long after you guys first got together did you have sexual relations.
[1:09:00] I actually made her wait uh a little bit because i valued trying to become close with her and understand her as a you know as a real fully fledged human being i know that sounds weird i'm still nervous about this um but uh we waited for like a few weeks and then jumped right into it after that.
[1:09:23] Okay so you had sex a dozen times a week off and on i suppose obviously not with the same frequency every week but for the most part for the first three and a half years and then it dropped to once a month after her brother died that's right okay and obviously after her brother died sexual frequency is going to go down because she's mourning and in grief and so on right and it just never picked back up again that's right okay and i assume that you talked about this and said what's going on like like this is really really changed right from 60 times a month to once a month is it's a big change and what did she say.
[1:10:11] Uh we've had many conversations about it and she continuously to do better uh her words i'm doing better i'm taking my whatever bloody ashwagandha pills or i i don't know i i don't have any names on hand but uh yeah she claims that she's trying to do better she's putting in the effort uh but nothing really changes and she knows how much it bothers me especially because it affects my sense of self-esteem how.
[1:10:45] Oh it's torture no it's for men and i think for women too but i think for men it's slightly more vivid uh that's just torture to be with a beautiful woman that you can't have sex with it's like being a starving guy uh snatching at a hologram of food right oh.
[1:11:02] Exactly and she.
[1:11:04] Knows where's the caring she's so loving and sweet and conservative and like help me understand she knows how important this is for you and it's not changing.
[1:11:19] That's and that's why i'm calling you.
[1:11:21] And she's dishonest because she keeps saying she's working on it and i assume she has said for years and years that it's going to change right yes and and it doesn't change, All right. Have you considered the possibility that she's not attracted to you or maybe even repulsed by you? I'm not saying that this is the case, but is that a possibility?
[1:11:47] No. And well, OK.
[1:11:50] You must have thought it.
[1:11:53] That's what I was going to say is like, if you've asked me that I would consider it. Yes, of course I have. And what I've done in response to that idea is that I have worked out excessively. and groomed myself and gotten a job.
[1:12:09] No, but it wouldn't be fundamentally physical, because otherwise people who were married for a long time would stop having sex, right? And that's not the case. So it's not just a physical thing, right?
[1:12:20] No, and that's kind of what I mean, is like I worked so hard to improve my physicality to make myself physically attractive.
[1:12:26] Yeah, but that hasn't changed, right? That hasn't changed it.
[1:12:29] Exactly. And so now she's trapped in this mental headspace where she's okay i'm going to give you my theory and uh this is just a theory but uh what i think is actually happening is every male figure in her life has left her died on her gotten sick on her and when i got sick at the same time that her brother died it reminded her that it's possible even for well for me to die too and i'm sorry how long were you sick with just i'm sorry to.
[1:13:01] Forget but how long were you sick with and what was your ailment.
[1:13:04] Two years and it was psoriatic arthritis and uh if you don't remember the exact specifics i was swelling up and there was welts appearing all over my skin i was like losing my hair and i i was completely screwed up right like i i couldn't move i couldn't go to the bathroom i couldn't do anything uh so she thought that i was to die, just like her brother did, just like her dad left her, just like her mom left her with an abusive stepfather, blah, blah, blah. And now here I am. And even if I can bring myself back, even if I can go from absolute ground zero and rebuild myself and become stronger and more powerful than ever, it doesn't matter because I showed her weakness. And that's it. Like, that was enough to prove to her that I wasn't enough. That's what I'm afraid of.
[1:14:07] Okay, so the fact that you were ill and disabled for two years means that her sexual desire for you as a sort of strong provider protector guy, that that has gone, right?
[1:14:22] It's died, yeah.
[1:14:23] Okay. So if that's the case, then why are you still together? If your theory is correct, and she's just lost all sexual or romantic desire for you because you were ill, then I assume you're staying because it's worth it without the physical closeness.
[1:14:46] Yeah i love being with her, it's it's weird coming from me especially given our last conversation because you know how much it matters to me but i don't know i just i love this woman and she deserves somebody who actually cares about her when was the last time when.
[1:15:06] Was the last time you took a leadership role in the relationship.
[1:15:15] Uh it's a hard question to ask because i feel like i do it all the time but, can you give me an example of what you might mean by that you.
[1:15:23] Shouldn't need an example.
[1:15:27] Okay um well uh just recently i found her a proper doctor i called them up made sure that they were able to take new clients i gave her the phone number and i made her call the number to make herself her own appointment because she hasn't seen a doctor in over 12 years. And I gave her...
[1:15:48] Wait, hang on, hang on, hang on. She's had a low sex drive for almost half a decade and she's not seen a doctor?
[1:15:55] That's right.
[1:15:57] So, why? I mean, that could have been an indication of something serious.
[1:16:08] I'm not disagreeing with you whatsoever.
[1:16:11] So I assume, sorry to interrupt, I assume at some point you said, listen, you need to go see a doctor if your sex drive is gone.
[1:16:19] Over and over. I did this so many times, it boggles my mind why she actually lied to me just a few days ago where she said that she called the number that I gave her. And they said they weren't taking new clients. And I called her bluff, called the place and said, oh, yeah, just have your wife call in and we can make an appointment.
[1:16:40] Okay, so hang on. So she promised you to go see a doctor, you got her a place to go, and then she lied and said they were too busy to take her when she never actually called them.
[1:16:49] Correct.
[1:16:52] Okay, what is wrong with you? No, this is not funny. This is not funny, bro. You're desperate to have her go see a doctor. You set it all up for her. And she lies to your face about calling them.
[1:17:12] She doesn't it's not ill will on her part.
[1:17:16] Oh my god you are oh my god are you cucked or what like what the fuck is going on here are you like are you the head head honcho of simps anonymous, she lied to you about seeing a doctor or her health when she promised, okay so what does she have to do that's inexcusable my god man where's your spine.
[1:17:48] So what do i do i just leave.
[1:18:00] I'm not sure if that's a rhetorical question or you're just venting, Kis.
[1:18:04] No, no, no, sorry. Do I have to offer her an ultimatum to try and make this...
[1:18:09] No, the question is how the hell did you get into this situation where she knows she can light your face and you'll just stick around. No particular problem. You'll make excuses. She's so pretty. She's no respect for you. Because you keep making excuses.
[1:18:35] No matter how much I try, no matter how much I push, I keep getting nowhere.
[1:18:41] Right, because she has no respect for you. Okay, how did she react when you found that she'd lied to your face about something absolutely important for you?
[1:18:55] Uh well she was pretty surprised that i had the foresight to actually verify her lie okay.
[1:19:01] And then what happened.
[1:19:02] And then she does this thing where she emotionally shuts down and just stops speaking stops reacting to me.
[1:19:12] Wait what did she get on these and apologize no has she apologized.
[1:19:22] Yes.
[1:19:23] Oh after she shut down emotionally.
[1:19:26] Yeah okay how.
[1:19:27] Long did it take for her to apologize.
[1:19:31] About half an hour okay.
[1:19:33] And how did the apology go.
[1:19:38] I didn't drive home the issue too much no no how did the.
[1:19:42] Apology go what did she like how did she say it what did she say.
[1:19:48] She said, well, it was pretty simple. She was just like, I'm sorry, I lied. I was just scared of going to the doctor.
[1:19:54] Okay.
[1:19:55] I accepted that.
[1:19:56] Oh, you accepted that? That was kind of the end of the convo?
[1:20:01] No, it went on. It went on for quite a little bit. And I told her how much it hurt me that she would lie to me. And how much it means to me that...
[1:20:15] Hurt you? Oh, bro.
[1:20:17] What? What did I do?
[1:20:24] Hurt you, That's kind of girly, Didn't it piss you off?
[1:20:34] Well, yeah Stop laughing.
[1:20:37] Stop laughing Sorry, I do it What are you trying to make me respect you as little as your wife? This is brutal, stop giggling Okay I'm trying to help you here.
[1:20:50] Yep, I hear you.
[1:20:54] Hurt you? Did it not make you angry?
[1:21:02] It made me very angry.
[1:21:04] Okay, so what are you telling me about hurt for?
[1:21:13] Because I don't know what to do with these feelings, these feelings of anger.
[1:21:17] Well, what do you mean do with your feelings?
[1:21:29] Sorry for the dead air.
[1:21:31] Oh, don't worry about it. It's not live radio. Take whatever dead air you need. I'm genuinely curious about this. I don't know what you mean by do with your feelings. I mean, don't you just be honest?
[1:21:46] I suppose i'm not really sure what it means to be honest with these feelings they feel so jumbled up it feels so confusing i know i'm angry i.
[1:21:57] Know let's say what and let's what is the most honest thing you could say when you found out she lied to your face what's the most honest thing you could say if you could say things consequence-free consequence so talk to me like you just found i'm your wife you just found out that i lied to you about something absolutely essential to you what would you say.
[1:22:22] Okay why would you fucking lie to me you keep doing this over and over you keep telling me things that aren't true you keep making excuses is. Fucking hell. I'm trying to secure a life for our future children. I care about our marriage. And this is what you do. Over and over again.
[1:22:50] What if I lied about? What if I lied about? Tell me.
[1:22:54] You keep lying about going to the fucking doctor. You didn't goddamn call.
[1:22:58] That's one lie. What else?
[1:23:02] I keep telling you how much it means to me that we can't be close together. That we can't be intimate. because you're always having problems you're always stressed you're always tired doesn't it matter to you how i feel don't you fucking care at all why is it the same thing over and over you know i can't live like this forever i've told you how many goddamn times do i have to fucking tell you how much it means to me and you don't care you don't even try, pathetic excuses over and over, every single time okay.
[1:23:44] That's two things.
[1:23:45] What else you say all the time that's two things what else, you, I'm rapidly running out of energy here stuff why I think.
[1:24:02] It's supposed to help you with your energy what else.
[1:24:05] Alright scream therapy.
[1:24:10] You don't have to scream anger doesn't necessarily mean scream I'm sure you've seen a Liam Neeson movie or two so what else.
[1:24:18] What else.
[1:24:18] Do you want to say what else has she been lying about or.
[1:24:22] Has been frustrating you we talked about.
[1:24:26] It for the first 45 minutes go on.
[1:24:31] Do you understand how pathetic it makes me feel trying to help you, and you do nothing to help me. You keep doing this. It's almost like I'm some kind of a charity case to you. You look down upon me. You know I'm sick. But this is how I get repaid for bringing myself back up from nothing? All right, here comes a big one.
[1:25:10] You told me that you didn't want to outlive your brother, and you threatened me to kill yourself before his death day. do you care at all about how i feel about that i can never forget that, seems like you care more about him than anyone and he's dead, what am i supposed to do with this everyone cares more about a dead man than me and i'm your fucking husband do i not get any amount of sympathy for everything that i've done i can build myself up from nothing and it doesn't matter to you you don't see it who do i have to be, what kind of life do i have to live where you can see me again the way that you did when we first met. Have I really changed that much?
[1:26:23] Am I a death sentence to you? Am I just a harbinger of pain? Why? That's all I got.
[1:26:43] Well, the answer is, my husband, that I don't have any particularly inner standards of behavior and you let me get away with everything. You just keep coming back like a hungry dog to an empty dish. You just keep coming back. You keep making excuses. You keep, listen, you don't think I know you're that angry deep down. You keep singing my praises, telling everyone how wonderful I am, but this is how you feel. It's gross. It's gross. you just keep making excuses and letting me do whatever i want you're like a begging dog oh please oh please oh please i'm hurt i'm hurt i'm hurt, i don't think i've seen you get manfully angry and god maybe ever maybe ever, i need you to give me some limits i clearly i don't have these big limits within my own heart I don't have these big standards of behavior within my own heart, so you indulge me, you spoil me, you make excuses that there aren't particular standards I say oh I'm sorry for lying to you and you're like I'm so hurt blech.
[1:28:04] I get what you're laying down, that makes sense it's true, You're right. I have to put down some serious boundaries here, don't I?
[1:28:19] Well, I don't know, man. I mean, how am I going to take them particularly seriously?
[1:28:26] Hmm. Fair enough.
[1:28:30] Look, let's be frank, man. You're too addicted to me to give boundaries.
[1:28:37] Addicted to what, sorry?
[1:28:38] Me. You're too addicted to me to give me boundaries.
[1:28:41] Oh.
[1:28:41] I could do anything I could bring a dead hobo home in a wheelbarrow And you'd be like let me help you bury But I'm upset that you did this But let me help you bury him, I don't know why you're so addicted to me It's not like I listen super well It's not like I respect what you want I barely touch you I barely have sex with you I don't know why you're so addicted to me Maybe it's the looks I mean I couldn't tell you, But you come on man You have no leverage in this relationship Because you're addicted Right, Okay.
[1:29:12] So I have to...
[1:29:15] You're not with me because of the good that I do. You're with me because you're addicted. What standards have you upheld me to?
[1:29:34] Might as well face it, you're addicted to love.
[1:29:37] Yeah, I'm like one of those kabuki guitarists up behind Robert Palmer, right? No, what standards? I can do anything. What have I not done? I can do anything. You might be a little annoyed, and then five seconds later, you're making excuses and giggling.
[1:29:56] Yeah.
[1:29:57] I mean, maybe it's a mom thing, maybe it's a history thing, but I can do anything. and all i do is say well i you see i didn't call the doctor because i'm scared to go little old me i'm scared don't you know, and you're like oh it's okay honey you're scared it's okay.
[1:30:25] I really needed to hear this, god thank you so much Stef i can't tell you how grateful i am.
[1:30:34] It's like trying to fuck a cloud, You know, a woman is drawn to a man's tangible presence, not a maze of foggy excuses. You've got to be there. I need containment. I need male strength. I need guidance. I need purpose. Are you a religious man?
[1:31:03] Me, no.
[1:31:04] Well, you better find Jesus or read the Bible because there's a reason all of that stuff is written down that a man has to be the head of the household and needs to be the leader, and a woman is the leader in some areas, and the man is the leader in some areas, where are you? That's why I asked you, where are you the leader? Where have you had absolute standards? Where are your deal breakers, husband? You don't have any, because you're addicted.
[1:31:28] Well, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
[1:31:33] You know, I heard that conversation you did with that five-head podcaster in Canada, right? And he's like, you should have some standards. And you're like, oh, I'm just supposed to leave her? Like, that's the only way you can think of having standards, is to just give me an ultimatum and leave? That's the only way you can have any standards, is to threaten me you're going to leave me? Or to just leave? That's the only way. Of course, so then if you stay, you can't have standards, because the only way you can have standards is to leave. because you won't leave and the only way you can have standards is to threaten to leave or leave because you won't leave you can't have any standards.
[1:32:13] Right there's.
[1:32:14] One tool in your tool belt leave.
[1:32:21] The only way is to hold a different kind of masculine presence yeah, right so I'm I'm terrified of being sick again but I try and maintain as best I can although obviously I've failed in basically every way, just try and give me one tip please, okay have a stand Okay.
[1:32:59] So a tip. Your wife threatened suicide after her brother died, right?
[1:33:08] Correct.
[1:33:09] Okay. When did you first, let's rewind even beyond that, right? So early on in your relationship, when did you first have an impulse for some kind of standard? Because again, you've been listening to Philosophy Guy for a while, right? So when did you have an urge for some kind of standard that you didn't follow through on early on in the relationship.
[1:33:32] That I didn't follow through on, I allowed her to lie to me about her past history regarding her old boyfriends.
[1:33:46] Okay. Just a rough sketch of what those lies were. You don't have to get into details.
[1:33:51] Sure. They were all drug addict fucking weirdos who abused her. and she didn't tell me this until i went on to her social media and found them and started researching their history and how long was that in the relationship very early on and.
[1:34:11] How long was that into the relationship.
[1:34:12] Uh three months a.
[1:34:16] Few months okay and why did you go researching her ex-boyfriends.
[1:34:21] Well i actually like the girl and i want to spend more time with her and i I wanted to be serious with her and so I figured you know she's she was 19 when I met and so of course she had to have been dating for a few years which means she was dating underage, and she was dating guys as young as uh when she was 14 she was dating guys who were 17 18 and I wanted to find out who these people are so I can keep tabs on them just in case Well.
[1:34:53] Hang on, hang on. So she was dating 18-year-old men when she was a 14-year-old girl.
[1:35:02] That's right.
[1:35:03] You don't have to tell me where you are geographically. Have you ever looked up whether that's legal?
[1:35:12] It's... I don't think so, no. No, it's not.
[1:35:15] So if it's not legal, that would be statutory right?
[1:35:19] Correct. Okay. Yep. And so I was angry with these people and she chose not to tell me this for a long time. She lied about their age.
[1:35:31] Okay. But you found out within a few months of dating her and you talked to her about this. And what did she say?
[1:35:40] She broke down into tears and was, she wasn't angry that I found anything out. She just had never.
[1:35:51] She she lied to you about the foundation of her history and the basis of your relationship because probably if you had met her and early on like before you slept together right if you had found out that if your theory is correct that she's been statutorily raped repeatedly as a little girl right would you have continued with the relationship, let's say, third or fourth date, she said, listen, we haven't slept together, we barely held hands, we haven't even really kissed, but I do have this history that five years ago, I was a 14-year-old girl, and I was getting, in a sense, legally assaulted by adult males.
[1:36:39] Would I have continued with the relationship? Yes.
[1:36:43] Then I don't know what to fucking say to you, man. I really don't. okay then it just looks okay right no no come on man come on come on come on.
[1:37:00] I don't know.
[1:37:03] Why would you continue if you had found out this woman had been, assaulted sexually if this is if the theory is correct right why would you continue you on with the relationship with a woman. How old were you when you met?
[1:37:23] I was 25. Okay.
[1:37:25] So a woman, six years, your junior with a history of extreme sexual trauma as a child.
[1:37:36] She deserves somebody who actually cares about her. I know you don't believe that.
[1:37:46] Okay, don't tell me what I do and don't believe. Let me have my say in the conversation. The people who deserve to be loved are the people with virtues. Now, I'm not saying she can't have virtues because she was abused as a child. Of course. But if she had told you early on in the relationship that she had a history of severe sexual trauma and child abuse, what would the loving thing, I mean, you can't love her after a couple of dates, obviously, right? But what would be the mature, wise, adult, and affectionate thing to do with such a person?
[1:38:30] Get them to therapy. That's right.
[1:38:32] Maybe be their friend, maybe be a bit of a mentor, maybe introduce them to shows like mine or other shows which can help her develop some kind of wisdom help her get into therapy not say hey you know two weeks from now I hope I can bang you too, because she said it was a couple of weeks right, right so a week into the relationship she tells you this and you're like great let's bang in two weeks sounds good because I'm sure you'll be better by then all healed up.
[1:39:09] That's not exactly how i treated the beginning of the relationship but i understand i know what you get what you're driving at.
[1:39:15] Well you had sex with her within a couple of weeks of meeting her when she had a history of having her sexual boundaries violated repeatedly for half a decade.
[1:39:34] In some ways, I feel like it's almost impossible to find a woman who's not like this, but I understand that's a bit hyperbolic. i am not a man of virtue am i.
[1:39:52] You're trying to jump to conclusions and i'm trying to get you into a moment here right you're jumping out so that you can observe yourself and judge yourself rather than experience what happened this was a very damaged young woman right.
[1:40:11] Right and i've saved her from nothing.
[1:40:13] Okay again i'm just trying to get you to go back to what happened. She was a very damaged young woman. You were six years older. You had had access to philosophy for some years beforehand. Was it very honorable to have sex with this young damaged woman when she was right out of her childhood and had been exploited for many years?
[1:40:51] No.
[1:40:53] That doesn't mean that you're a terrible person. It doesn't mean that this relationship can't work, but I think it's important to understand the origin story. Why does she think, if she was on the line, and I'm happy to talk to her too, if I were asking her why is your husband with you what would she say.
[1:41:19] She would probably say something like he's kind and sweet and he takes care of me when nobody else does, and he's he's an intelligent talented man with so much capability and, And I don't know, something like that. That's what she tells me anyway. Is that good enough?
[1:41:55] Well, I mean, you're certainly very intelligent and talented, and I have no doubt about any of that.
[1:42:05] Okay.
[1:42:07] If I were to ask your wife, why don't you have sex with your husband, what would she say? Without filter.
[1:42:18] Okay, so... This is tough, because... You know, we've talked a little bit about this, and I know what she would say. She would say something obvious, like, I've just been so stressed at work, and I'm just so tired. You know, I think my hormones are off balance. I'm not really sure what's going on. It would just be something stupid like that.
[1:42:44] Okay, and then I would say, well, then why haven't, let's, you play your wife, right? So then I would say, well, I mean, if you think your hormones might be out of whack, and this has been going on year after year after year and it's driving your husband crazy. Why haven't you gone to see a doctor?
[1:42:58] I'm just really scared. I don't want to know what's wrong with me. Every time I go there, it feels like I have to go on this long trip of trying to figure out something and blood tests and all this crap and I just don't want to do it. I'd rather just fucking lay down and die.
[1:43:21] Well, I mean, that's obviously quite dramatic, right? You're just going to get some blood tests, right? It's not like you have some giant lump growing out of your butt cheek or something, right? So that's quite dramatic, but you understand, like, you're married now, right? So you're one flesh, right? So you can't make these decisions individually, right? Because you've said to your husband, you can't sleep with anyone else but me, and you won't sleep with him, right? So it's not, maybe you sort of missed this part about the marriage thing, but it's not about you anymore, right? Once you're married, you're one flesh. It's you and the other person. You can't just say, if you're single, you can say, I'm going to go and buy a new car or some expensive piece of computer equipment or something like that. But when you're married, you can't do that. You have to talk things over with your wife because you shared your finances and so on. When you're single, you can decide where you want to live. When you're married, you can't just decide where you want to live. You have to negotiate things with your partner. So it's not just about you anymore. does that make sense.
[1:44:21] I know but it's scary am I still.
[1:44:25] Playing the part sorry I don't understand is scary an excuse like you don't have to do anything.
[1:44:34] I want it to be.
[1:44:35] Okay but it's not right, no I mean, would you accept that as an excuse from someone else?
[1:44:48] I just want to mention, this is literally how she talks to me.
[1:44:51] No, no, I get it. I get it. That's why you're role-playing, right? So is that, like, let's say that your husband slept with another woman, right? And you said, oh my gosh, that's so terrible. Why did you do that? And he said, I was horny. Would that be an excuse? Would you be like, oh, if you're horny, that's fine, right?
[1:45:10] No, I'd be angry.
[1:45:11] Okay, sure, because his emotions are not just an excuse, right? Just the fact that he's horny doesn't mean he can sleep with someone, and the fact that you're scared doesn't mean that you can't go to the doctor, right? You have to go to the doctor, right? But your feelings are like a big excuse for you, but your husband's feelings wouldn't be an excuse, right? If he came home with some new sports car that put you $100,000 in debt, and he said, well, I really liked it, would that be, oh, okay, well, then let's work to pay off that $100,000, right?
[1:45:43] Yeah, but if I just don't want to, you can't make me.
[1:45:48] That's certainly true. Yeah, of course. Of course. Right, so then if your husband says, well, I really do want to go and sleep with another woman and you can't stop me, that's also true, right? I really do want to go buy a sports car and you can't stop me, that's also true, right? So what's the point of saying that? The fact that you have a feeling and no one can stop you is certainly true. No one can make you go to the doctor. You can't stop your husband from sleeping around or buying a $100,000 car. So what? What does that mean?
[1:46:24] What happens if I go there and they find something out about me that I don't want to deal with?
[1:46:30] Well, so that's life. I mean, that's life. i mean everybody can go to the doctor at any time and the doctor can find something that's going to be tough to deal with that's life i mean it's tougher to deal with if you don't go to the doctor you understand that right.
[1:46:51] Scared to die i'm scared to live i don't know what to do with myself you're the only thing that keeps me sane you're the only one that protects me.
[1:47:03] Well i'm not protecting you if you don't go to the doctor i can't protect you from that but you do need to go to the doctor you haven't been in 12 years you need some blood tests right probably almost certainly there's nothing wrong with you but you need to go and check right i mean you go to the dentist right no oh you don't even don't even go to the dentist okay so you have a fear and i understand that and i can sympathize with that but do we just allow our emotions to dictate what we do in life is that like is that see you give yourself the excuse i'm scared therefore i'm just not going to go but that's not reasonable right and you want to become a mother right, yeah now will you allow your children to say their emotions uh can completely dictate their behavior.
[1:47:50] No, I guess not.
[1:47:51] Okay, so you'll expect, say, a two-year-old or a three-year-old to do something even if they don't feel like it, right? I mean, two-year-olds don't want to brush their teeth, right? They don't want to eat their vegetables, right? So will you allow a two-year-old to just say, well, I don't want to, and then that's fine. You can stay up as much as you want. You can eat all the candy you want. You don't have to brush your teeth. You don't have to bathe because you don't feel like, is that how, I mean, it's kind of important because we're trying to have a kid. Is that going to be your approach? to having children they can just do whatever they want and and indulge every feeling that they have and never have to do anything they don't want to is that is that your approach.
[1:48:31] No but you always make this so hard you always tell me about the important things that i have to do and i just don't want to do it.
[1:48:40] I understand that so what you're saying is that your children at two or three years old they have to be more mature than you They have to do things even if they don't want to But you don't, You're in your late 20s Or you're in your mid 20s And so you're Almost a quarter century older than Your kids will be when you expect them to do things They don't want to do I mean you understand at some point You know in life, You have to do things that you don't want to do So I'm not sure why Everyone has to do things they don't want to do But you get this big gold star that you don't have to do things you don't want to do. I don't understand that.
[1:49:22] Because you married me, and I don't want to...
[1:49:27] Wait, you don't have to... Hang on. You don't have to do things you don't want to do because I married you?
[1:49:35] What?
[1:49:36] Sorry, there's a little logical leap there that seems to have gone through somebody's lower intestine that I can't follow.
[1:49:44] Why should I have to take responsibility for any of this? Why?
[1:49:50] Sorry, I don't understand.
[1:49:51] All I wanted to do was just be with you and be happy. And you're putting all this on me.
[1:50:00] Sorry, do you want an open relationship or a monogamous relationship?
[1:50:06] Monogamous.
[1:50:06] Okay, then we have to increase our sexual frequency. Right? I mean, you know I'm not satisfied, right?
[1:50:16] I'm tired.
[1:50:17] Sorry, this is not about you. Just focus on me, you know. right up i'm right here okay focus on me try not to make it about you for just like 30 seconds okay so you know i'm not satisfied right, yeah and you also know that i'm not unreasonable right because no man would be satisfied with once a month right agreed yeah okay you also know that we had sex like twice a day for the first couple of years of our relationship so you can understand why i feel that i might have been given a false bill here like a false give it a false set of goods here right, i guess sorry what do you mean you guess.
[1:50:58] I mean, I guess you, yeah, that makes sense. I understand, okay?
[1:51:04] Hey, why are you getting so angry? I'm just talking here. Are you trying to be intimidating?
[1:51:10] Like you're trying to warn me about, oh, this is a bad topic. Better not talk about it. Is that, I'm not sure. Is that what's going on?
[1:51:17] I'm doing better. I've tried really hard.
[1:51:21] Right. So let me ask you this. do you think that a man feels good when his wife, tries really hard to want to have sex with him like she's bench pressing 200 pounds to just, give him a soul kiss like do you think that that's positive is that a positive experience for a man if his wife has to really strain and push hard and try her damnedest just to find him sexually attractive.
[1:51:53] No i know what you want you want me to want you and i'm sorry okay.
[1:51:59] Sorry what are you sorry for.
[1:52:03] Because i'm not able to give you what you want.
[1:52:07] Well i'm sorry how do you know that you're not able to give me what i want if you could just be a hormonal issue go see the doctor you get a prescription and you're fine i'm not sure what you how do you know you can't give me what i want Yeah.
[1:52:23] Sorry, I'll call tomorrow.
[1:52:25] Okay. The question is, why has it taken almost half a decade? Because you claim to care about me, right? But you care more about your fear than me. I mean, just empirically, right? Because if I've been saying for half a decade, go see the doctor, because this may be something that needs to be tweaked with your hormones, and you haven't done it, it means you care more about your fear than the doctor. Sorry, You care more about your fear than me, right?
[1:52:54] Uh just breaking character very quickly here oh my god stefan you are confirming everything that i've been feeling for so long it's unbelievable.
[1:53:06] Now do you see how i'm being assertive, without yelling at her i'm taking a leadership role without threatening to leave, because you asked me to give you an example well i just gave you an example, yeah just don't take the bullshit i'm being honest but i'm not saying it hurts me right you're saying you can understand that a man would not feel very happy about a wife like she's bench pressing an elephant trying to be attracted to him right, so this is not it's not like begging it's not yelling it's not threatening to leave it's just To me, I mean, maybe other people have different ways of looking at it, but that's being assertive. Just, you know, calmly and patiently not allowing nonsense to be said and stating what you need.
[1:54:05] How right you are.
[1:54:06] Now, because she said, I'm scared to go to the doctor, and you've been like, okay, hug, hug. Well, I guess we'll try another time, right? Right, so you've allowed she's scared of the doctor to be a reason why she doesn't have to go to the doctor. So, yeah, you're scared to go to the doctor. But you still have to go to the doctor, right?
[1:54:26] And I allow it.
[1:54:28] Well, yes, you give her that excuse. And so she doesn't end up having to confront the fears. And I don't honestly even know if she's that afraid. It just could be she doesn't want to go to the doctor. And she knows that if she says to you, i'm scared that you'll be like okay honey pat pat okay i guess you don't have to go right and and that's not good for um kids right no.
[1:54:52] Absolutely uh absolutely not sorry rather.
[1:54:55] Yeah no and i got what you meant so so that's why i brought up the kid stuff right do do kids have to do things they don't want to do well yeah starting at what age you know maybe two or three or whatever maybe a bit earlier depends on the development of the kid right but do kids have to do things that they don't want to do? Yes. As a parent, are you responsible for your kids doing the right thing, even if they don't want to do it in the moment? Yes. You know, I went to a cafe with my daughter. I had some work to do today, and she had some math to do. So, did she want to do the math? Nope. Did I want to do, I was doing some fairly boring work today. Did I want to do that work? I did not. But, you know, I'll go and do the things that I don't want to do, because you model self-discipline to your children. And the problem is that you've enabled your wife's complete and utter endless excuses and lack of self-discipline. Now, she probably has self-discipline when it comes to keeping her looks up, but not. So you've just treated her kind of like you would treat a spoiled child. And the fact that you treat her like a child is why she's buying action figures and plushies.
[1:56:02] Right.
[1:56:03] And the fact that you're treating her like a child is killing her sexual desire.
[1:56:10] Yeah. Okay.
[1:56:11] Because if you're like, if she's a child and you're some older guy who wants to have sex with her, she's getting flashbacks to when she was 14!
[1:56:21] I hear you. I... I don't want to treat her like that. I don't. She's a woman. She can make up her own mind about what she wants.
[1:56:38] Sorry, what? What do you mean she can make? No! No! No! Oh my god. She can't make up her own mind about what she wants. Why not?
[1:56:54] Because she's...
[1:56:56] She's stuck No, why can't she make up Her own mind about what she wants This was in the roleplay And I know it's tricky, right But why is it that she cannot make up her own mind About what she wants.
[1:57:11] Because I let her live.
[1:57:13] In No, because she's married, Okay If you want to make up your own mind About what you want, stay the fuck single Okay But once you're married, you don't get to make up your own mind about what you want, because you have to negotiate it with your partner, with your husband and your wife. See, this is why I'm saying, she doesn't want to go to the doctor if she doesn't get to make that decision, because she's married.
[1:57:49] Yeah, I follow.
[1:57:50] Like if you like to smoke and drive a motorcycle in the rain, if you're single, I guess you can make those bad decisions, but you can't make those decisions if you're married and a father.
[1:58:04] Yeah. Okay.
[1:58:07] So she cannot make up her own mind about her own decisions any more than you can, any more than I can, or my wife can, or any married person who's properly married can. But you've been allowing her to stay kind of weirdly single. Like, she gets to decide whether she goes to the doctor or not.
[1:58:26] Interesting.
[1:58:27] She doesn't get to decide whether she goes to the doctor or not. Why? Because it's important to you. And she cares about you, and she's married.
[1:58:39] Yeah.
[1:58:39] Do you think I get to dress however I want when we go to a nice restaurant? I do not.
[1:58:47] Right?
[1:58:47] And I'm fine with that. My wife's like, nope, time to change. I'm like, okay, I'll go change. I don't care. I don't care. Honestly, I could go in a pair of PJs. I could care less. But my wife wants me to dress well, so I'll dress well. I don't get to decide what I want. My wife gets pregnant. First thing she says is, we need a house. Did I want to buy a house? I did not. But we did, and I'm glad we did. She was right. It's better with a backyard when you have kids, right? So, I don't get to decide things. Like, you know, when I was doing my documentaries, I didn't just get to say, hey, I think I'm going to go to Hong Kong for, I mean, I didn't just announce I'm going to Hong Kong. Right? I say, oh, this is what I want to do. What do you think? What are the risks? What are the benefits? Can we afford it? Right? You negotiate. Because you're married.
[1:59:40] Hmm.
[1:59:46] But you've been allowing her to live this kind of selfish, not married life. Like she can just decide whether she goes to the doctor or not. She can't because if she waits too long to go to, let's say, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, right? But let's say there is something wrong. And the longer she waits, the worse it gets. Who has to take care of her?
[2:00:08] Yeah.
[2:00:08] You.
[2:00:10] Yeah. It's going to be me.
[2:00:11] Right. So she doesn't get to make that decision because she's expecting you to take care of her. And so if you say go to the doctor, she goes, I mean, do you think I went to the doctor every year for a checkup and get my blood work and all of that before I was married? Nope. Do I go every year now, get my way in, get my blood samples, get all my things checked? And yep.
[2:00:35] Hell yeah, you do.
[2:00:36] Of course I do, right? Because I'm married. it's important because if I get sick my wife's going to have to take care of me, so she says go to the doctor to make sure you don't get sick and make sure you're not sick with anything then she does it and I do it I don't get to make that decision, on my own because, it's like saying well I'm only going to smoke and it's only going to affect my left lung not my right lung it's like nope that's not how it works, you don't make decisions in isolation and I would suggest not having kids until you figure out what it means to be married.
[2:01:18] There's the golden ticket of a piece of advice that I was waiting for.
[2:01:22] You guys in my view not ready to have kids because she still has this belief that she's not one half of an archway Mm-hmm.
[2:01:38] All right well i i can definitely take that on board and quite honestly i've been feeling the same like we have to match up before we can actually go through with all this because.
[2:01:50] She can't be out there buying action figures if you disagree i can't just come home with a i don't know a cyber truck or whatever nonsense like i can't do anything like that i don't even want to yeah.
[2:02:05] Yeah we both need to get our our shit in order before we can actually go through.
[2:02:09] Well you guys have to learn how to be a team and being a team means when the other person says jump you say how high and then vice versa right i mean you have credibility with each other and this is why if you want to have authority with her you have to get her to the place where, she goes to the doctor because you want her to go to the doctor and she's scared and she's nervous you get that, you can go with her, you can hold her hand you can, right? But she's still got to go I don't like going to the doctor and getting blood drawn and you know and all of that right? I don't like going to the doctor but I go because it's important to my wife and it's important for me that it's important to her and she's right, so So, I think you guys are still kind of not united, or you're not one flesh. It's the reason why, again, I know you're not Christian, but there's a reason why the Bible says a man and woman become one flesh. She's still got this, well, I can just say I'm scared, and then I don't have to do what is really important to my husband, right? So, she has got to figure out whatever is causing her lack of sex drive. and she has to solve it. Like, it's not optional.
[2:03:33] You know what's weird, Stef, is like the first thing I think as soon as you say that is, oh, but I can't talk about her lack of sex drive because that's just pushing her more. And then that's me.
[2:03:44] No, no, but sorry. But she needs to get to that place where she's like, oh my gosh, I can't, I can't not have sex with my husband because he's a man, and I have a monopoly on his sexual activity, so I have to find a way to solve my lack of sex drive, because it's torturing my husband. It'd be like if I suddenly wanted to learn how to play the bagpipes at 5 o'clock in the morning, do you think I could do that with my wife and daughter home? No, because what I do has a huge impact on them. right so i don't get to make that decision in isolation.
[2:04:29] You recognize just how important it is to the people around you that you actually make an effort and do what makes them happy, especially when you're one flesh, when you're one family.
[2:04:45] Sure. Yeah, of course, right? I mean, if I was, I don't know, let's say I had some, I don't know, let's say some husband likes a particular kind of food that makes him super gassy, and whenever he's super gassy, he can't have sex, and he keeps eating that food, and he's super gassy, and he never wants to have sex, right? Then he would say, well, that's not fair, right? My wife can't go without sex, so, right, I got to stop eating this gassy making food, or whatever it is, right? Like, you just have to constantly be thinking about what's best for the other person, and then they're thinking about what's best for you, and you negotiate whenever there's not a good coincidental overlap, right? That's marriage, right?
[2:05:26] Yeah, and I'm really glad we got to this place where you're basically telling me exactly what I thought you might tell me in regards to this story, because it's, it is kind of, yeah.
[2:05:40] Sorry to interrupt. I appreciate the praise, but I really want to get this last point across. So the challenge is not to fix your wife. The challenge is to talk to her about why other people don't show up enough for her, and without blaming her or getting mad at her or whatever, right? Just with genuine sympathy. Given her childhood, we can understand it, and I'm happy to chat with her if she wants to chat. But it's like, okay, so you still live kind of an isolated existence, right? Because she's isolated.
[2:06:12] That's what happens when we don't take other people's needs and preferences into consideration, we end up feeling really isolated.
[2:06:24] And if she feels isolated, it comes out of a shame or depression or something where she's just not connecting with you. Maybe she doesn't feel like she can make you happy. Maybe she just feels so unhappy herself and is hiding the causes from it and all of that, right? yes absolutely but it's trying to figure out why what you want what you legitimately want right, you're not saying you know i need you to dress up like a dolphin and have sex with me on the roof of the subway or something right right it's a reasonable thing to say more than once a month might be a little bit of an improvement right that's a reasonable thing right so you have She makes reasonable requests, and she is driving them away or fencing them away, like she's batting them away. Oh, yeah, no, I'll work on it. Oh, yeah, yeah, no, I'll go to, oh, I called the doctor, right? She's just, it's a very distant kind of alienated, isolated manipulation.
[2:07:25] Yes. Sorry, I'm getting weird messages while you're talking, trying to avoid them here. Sure. From your wife?
[2:07:34] Yeah.
[2:07:37] No, from work.
[2:07:38] Oh, okay.
[2:07:38] Okay.
[2:07:38] Well, yeah, we're almost done here. So you can go put that fire out. So it's just what's going on. And because the general temptation is, as you said, like I'm hurt, I'm angry and so on. And I understand those feelings. I really do. But that's sort of the relentless curiosity, right? The relentless curiosity is, well, why do you? Well, I'm scared. Okay, but why do you think being scared means that you don't have to do something? And, you know, you say this, well, why the hell do you? Like, genuinely, well, why just being scared? I mean, is that something that you're comfortable with me doing? Like, if I feel lust, do I get to sleep with someone? Well, no, that would be terrible. Okay, so you want me to act against my feelings, right? You want me to not sleep with someone even if I'm lusting after them because we're married. Okay, so that means that I have to act against the impulse of my feelings because I'm married. And so for you, you feel, oh, I'm scared, right?
[2:08:35] And part of it is traumatized childhood, part of it's pretty privileged, part of it is you enabling it for eight years, and so on, right? But why is it that you don't have to go against your feelings when I do? And everyone else does, and a two-year-old has to, right? If a two-year-old hits another kid, we don't just say, well, he was feeling aggressive, so it's fine, right? We say, no, that's not right. Don't hit people, right? So even a two-year-old has to be taught how to act against the impulse of their feelings, but you don't feel that. And, you know, just tell me why. What's the thought? What's the source of it? What's the, right? And my guess is that when she started being sexually exploited by adults when she was 14, her emotional development kind of stalled there.
[2:09:20] Yes. Yeah, that's my feeling as well.
[2:09:22] Yeah, and often for, you know, the pretty girls are pretty, but they also preyed on a lot.
[2:09:29] Oh yeah by and i gotta tell you this woman is fucking gorgeous so it's no surprise at all yeah.
[2:09:38] Probably not a shock that you put the f-bomb right at the beginning there but.
[2:09:42] Oh sorry oh no i don't mind that all right all right but yes you're right, um Um, well, I just want to thank you for allowing this to be public and giving everyone the chance to understand and learn from my mistakes.
[2:10:11] No, listen, I, I sympathize and I understand. And, you know, you think that's the first for the show is to have a guy roleplay his wife, um, while I'm roleplaying him. Uh, that's really something. So I appreciate that opportunity. That was great.
[2:10:25] All right. Well, thank you so much.
[2:10:26] You're welcome, brother. Listen, I wish you guys the very best. If I were in your shoes, maybe hold off a little bit trying to have kids until you sort some of this stuff out. But I hope you'll keep me posted about how it's going. And I do extend with great warmth and affection an offer to chat with your wife, if that would help at all. I'm certainly keen to do that if it would provide any benefit for you guys. So I hope you'll keep me posted about how it goes either way.
[2:10:52] All right. Well, thank you, Stef. And I'm sure we will. I'll let you know what happens.
[2:10:56] All right. Thanks, man. Take care. Bye-bye.
[2:10:58] All right. Cheers.
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