0:01 - Initial Greetings
8:08 - Relationship Struggles
27:55 - Parenting Challenges
1:05:17 - Childhood Reflections
1:20:17 - Confronting the Past
1:24:14 - Confrontation and Accountability
1:26:53 - Guilt and Shame
1:29:54 - The Cost of Selfishness
1:33:47 - Realizations and Regrets
1:35:01 - Fear and Its Roots
1:39:24 - Patterns of Abuse
1:44:49 - Boundaries and Protection
1:45:13 - Childhood Reflections
1:53:08 - The Strain of Marriage
1:54:54 - Expressing Frustration
1:56:30 - The Weight of Expectations
1:58:03 - The Essence of Marriage
1:59:50 - Masculinity in Relationships
2:16:15 - The Complexity of Emotion
2:19:07 - Protecting the Family
2:30:41 - The Need for Honesty
2:34:17 - The Role of a Father
2:37:13 - Seeking Respect
2:45:59 - Finding Hope and Solutions
In this in-depth conversation, Stefan engages with a caller who discusses the challenges faced in their marriage, particularly in the context of parenting three young children. The caller shares insights into his relationship dynamics with his wife, whom they refer to as Alice. They have a three-year-old daughter and one-year-old boy-girl twins. The caller expresses feelings of disconnection from Alice, particularly concerning physical intimacy since the twins were born. He mentions that attempts at affection often result in rejection, leading him to withdraw even further. This struggle is compounded by the stresses of parenting and their various responsibilities, causing a significant emotional and physical rift in their relationship.
Alice chimes in to highlight her experience with anxiety and the overwhelming stress of managing the household. She recounts a particularly challenging time when their twins were in the NICU, which took a toll on both her mental and physical well-being. As the conversation unfolds, it becomes evident that both partners feel neglected, struggling to reconnect amidst their responsibilities. The caller articulates feelings of resentment towards Alice’s parenting style, especially when he overhears her expressing frustration towards their crying children in moments of fatigue.
Stefan dives deep into their childhood backgrounds, which profoundly influence their current relationship behaviors. Alice opens up about her turbulent upbringing, including her mother's struggles with addiction and the chaotic home life she endured. In stark contrast, the caller discusses a more stable family life but acknowledges his father’s emotional unavailability, leading to a sense of detachment. Stefan encourages them to confront these unresolved traumas and how they've shaped their expectations and resentments in their marriage and parenting styles.
As the conversation progresses, the caller expresses regret over not addressing the issues more firmly or assertively, both with his wife and their family dynamics. Stefan highlights that the foundation of their relationship relies heavily on mutual respect, protection, and the need for both partners to navigate their emotional and sexual lives together actively. He emphasizes that the persistent absence of intimacy and engagement threatens the very fabric of their marriage, suggesting that it is imperative for both to work through their emotional struggles together rather than allowing resentment to fester.
Throughout the discussion, there is a realization of the need to establish boundaries—not just with their children but between themselves and toxic influences, including the caller's mother. With both partners reflecting on how their pasts have shaped their present realities, the importance of honest communication and the necessity of addressing each partner's emotional needs are underscored.
Finally, Stefan offers actionable advice on how to build a stronger bond by encouraging an open dialogue about their needs—specifically pointing out that sex is not merely a physical act but an essential emotional connection that must be cultivated. He challenges both the caller and Alice to confront their fears and past traumas head-on, laying the groundwork for a healthier family dynamic as they navigate parenthood together. The session ends with an acknowledgment of the progress made and hope that with concerted effort, they can reclaim their partnership and familial happiness.
Overall, this conversation illuminates the complex dynamics of marriage, the impact of unresolved childhood traumas, and the critical importance of communication in fostering intimacy and connection amidst the chaos of modern parenting.
[0:00] Hello, can you hear me?
[0:01] There you go. Yeah, hello.
[0:03] Ah, there we go. There we go. Good, good. Good, good, good. All right, good. How are the kids doing?
[0:10] They're doing okay. They both went down, both the twins went down about five minutes ago, and our three-year-old's been asleep for about an hour and a half, so I think we're in good shape.
[0:21] All right, all right. Okay, so, yeah, do you want to start by reading the message, or do you want to just jawbone it? What's your pleasure?
[0:30] Yeah, I will. I'll start by reading what I sent you originally. I originally wanted to just do the call by myself, but I figured out a little later on that it'd probably be wise to bring my wife in. So I also sent this to her. So I will just read what I sent you and her originally. my wife and I have been married since 2019 and have a three-year-old daughter and a set of one-year-old boy-girl twins my wife is a stay-at-home mom there are obviously significant stresses involved with managing our kids and the daily household tasks that reduce time spent as partners but things have significantly deteriorated in terms of our personal relationship nearly every time I've initiated any kind of physical affection since the twins were born her emotional and physical responses to my advances are evidently cold. She often recalls when I tried to even just give her a kiss, which I haven't even tried in some time because of her rejection. She says she loves me, and I'm sure it's true, but the lack of physical affection and contact has caused me to completely withdraw my advances, as I have always been very sensitive to rejection. Before we got married, we were very close physically. We were celibate before marriage, so the 180-degree change from then to now makes me feel used and taken advantage of.
[1:47] There are also times at night when one of our twins won't go back to sleep and if I happen to wake up while my wife is trying to put one of them back down, I have often heard her saying things like shut the fuck up to the baby. This is causing me to resent her and her efforts as a parent. I don't like feeling resentful of her. She doesn't normally use such language during her daily activities and interactions, so all of this makes me very reluctant to have more children, even though I would personally like to have one more sooner rather than later, given that we're both now almost 33 years old i love my wife and i love our kids and i understand that raising children ostensibly takes priority over physically physical and emotional closeness between the parents but i don't like the long-term implications of how our current relationship bears on the future and whether current physical closeness should be just be put more on the back burner for now until things are more stable so that's everything that i sort of have to say um, Like I said, it's been sort of that way for the last about a year. Our twins just barely turned one about a week ago. So it's been about a year that things have kind of been this way.
[2:53] Right. Right. Okay. Do you mind if I just refer to you guys as like Bob and Alice? Is that all right?
[2:59] That's great. Yeah, that's fine. I should have come up with better names ahead of time, but those are great.
[3:03] No, that's fine. That's fine. No, no problem at all. okay so alice do you want to get me up to speed on on how things are going for you and what's up for you.
[3:10] Sure yeah um i also wrote out my thoughts um which i shared with bob here um okay so the past year has been extremely difficult for me mentally emotionally and physically i spent a lot of it dealing with anxiety and more stress than i've ever experienced in my life for three months our twins were in the nicu um and i was just in survival mode um leaving a crying toddler every day driving almost an hour to see our brand new babies and only being able to spend a couple hours a day with them was really hard um it was exhausting and stressful and i felt like i was failing all three of my kids because i was constantly having to pick between two worlds, then they came home and since we kind of skipped past the sleep all day stage of the hospital it started out a little bit rough um.
[4:00] Sorry, what do you mean by the sleep all day stage at the hospital?
[4:03] So like brand new babies sleep all day and, you know, mom gets to sleep when the babies are sleeping. But that kind of...
[4:09] Well, mine didn't, but I'm glad that you think it could happen. I'm just kidding. My daughter was not a sleeper at all. We ended up having a sleep train. But that's a story for another time. So sorry, go ahead.
[4:18] Our first was a very good sleeper from pretty much the beginning.
[4:21] Oh, yeah. You know, the first do that. Do you know why?
[4:23] So you have more?
[4:24] That's right. You're like, hey, this is easy. And then it's not.
[4:30] Yeah we didn't know we were in for two more that didn't do that so yes.
[4:33] Well the two the two part of course is not insignificant as you know better than i do so go ahead.
[4:38] Um things were okay for a while but this anxiety that i didn't really understand crept up i'd never really experienced that any kind of anxiety before um significant anxiety um i felt angry all the time for no reason i would find myself throwing things into the sink in frustration instead of just putting them there, slamming cabinets. I would have a really bad day and then several good days. And I figured it would just fade with time.
[5:03] Then the twins got a little older and even harder to put to sleep and they weren't gaining the weight the doctor wanted them to. And that kind of piqued my anxiety. I felt completely out of control all the time. I would find myself daily getting so frustrated. I was always grumpy, just completely out of control. And then my out of control anger would then spiral into guilt and I would just feel like horrible guilt. And then that would just make me even more angry. Um, how could I, like, I just kept thinking like, how could a mom be so frustrated at like innocent babies? Like how, like, how can I feel this way? How come I can't control it? Like, why aren't they sleeping? Like they would sleep okay. And I could get them to go back to sleep in the middle of the night. And then the next day they would just stay up and I couldn't get them back to sleep and they would cry. And I was terrified they were going to wake up the toddler and it would just continue and continue and spiral um so um and then, after the kids would finally go to sleep at the end of the day I would have like a disaster of the house to clean up by myself um and that was the first time that I decided to open up to Bob about the possibility of postpartum depression we went out to lunch and this was the first time we had been alone by ourselves in months. Um, um, I talked to him about how I was feeling and what was causing my meltdowns.
[6:33] I explained what I was going through, how I was feeling. We talked about how he could help and whether or not I should see a doctor. And looking back, the answer should have been yes to that.
[6:46] But I held off mostly because of shame. Having to admit that I couldn't do this on my own seemed too hard. Um, so things got better for a little bit Um for at least my emotions, My husband was on the same page with me helping out a little bit more Which helped me to feel a little bit more in control, Um, I wasn't perfect and of course there are stresses that with three kids under three um years old, so But I was still kind of in survival mode, but I wasn't getting as angry. I wasn't As stressed Um trying to balance the fun activities and the outings with the toddler but keeping a regular nap schedule, um, keeping the house presentable, keeping the kids fed, um, all while paying attention to the twins milestones. Cause they were so far behind from the beginning, um, just left me very busy and very exhausted. By the end of the day, I just wanted to sit in a clean house and watch a show. Um, so I would kind of rage clean and then sit down and watch my show. By this point, there was like no physical connection with my husband at all. I got into a rut of no physical contact. It made me uncomfortable when he tried. We spent months going to the NICU. So our only time together was spent in the car. And then I.
[8:08] Things were getting better for me emotionally with him helping but i still hadn't felt connected to him um the lack of emotional connection the stress and exhaustion my own insecurities about my own body after having three kids all made it hard for me to bridge that gap i started to notice a growing distance between us um he stopped trying which part of me was relieved but the other part of me was worried um i tried for a while telling myself every day okay when he comes home i'm gonna like Like, you know, I'm going to be more affectionate. I'm going to like, we're going to snuggle during TV time or whatever. And I just, every time I tried to push myself to do it, I just recoiled even more. So after seven months of basically no contact, I decided enough had been enough and I couldn't do easing back into it. And so I had my grandma watch the kids and we went to dinner. And I told myself that we were going to, we were going to have sex and that was the end of it. And I was just going to jump right into it.
[9:04] So romantic. It's like the Olympics. I can do it.
[9:09] Yes. It was the only way I could figure out getting myself to get back into it. So we did. And that following week was interesting. I was less hesitant with my husband and I felt more relaxed when he was home. But of course, the romance aside, it didn't last. We had a good talk, I felt, at dinner and kind of got back on the same page. I felt like he was helping more. After that, I'd still get frustrated, but I wasn't feeling that blind, out-of-control anger anymore for a while. And I noticed that for the next several months, the only time I would feel that way was like the first one or two days of my menstrual cycle. So I could kind of plan for it. I knew it was coming. I knew it would be over. I could keep bit and check um then mid-november that blind anger came again and it didn't go it didn't go away after the days i thought it would go away um i felt like i was just sent back in time it took me a while to figure out what my stressors were um you.
[10:17] Mean sent back in time to when the sort of stress and anxiety was overwhelming right.
[10:21] Yes yeah yeah um, um and i spent a lot of time reflecting over the past a little bit and to figure out what was what my stressors were what was setting me off the most um.
[10:41] Sorry, I just lost my spot. So I had recently potty trained our toddler and any accident she had after she was seemed good to go would set me off. I would just get angry and I realized I wasn't really mad at her. I was mad at myself. Like I was the one failing when the babies wouldn't go back to sleep or were hard to put down for a nap. I would get angry, but I wasn't mad at them. I was mad at myself. I was disappointed that I couldn't do it. I felt like I should be able to do this, this like. guilt at every regression and I know that's like just what babies do but I have maybe too high of expectations on what they should be able to do and what I should be able to do and it would just send me spiraling and that guilt would just make me angry um this is also when our bottle-fed twin um started fighting her bottle and she wasn't eating enough solid food to counteract to balance that out. Um, my milk supply was dropping, um, most likely due to stress. Um, and that even made me more upset that I couldn't provide for her. Um, I worked really hard. I spent months going dairy free, which I had to eat separately from my family during that time.
[11:55] Sorry, why dairy free?
[11:56] Um, the doc, her doctor in the NICU diagnosed her with a, um, dairy protein intolerance. and so she came home on formula and when after several months when she was six months old her pediatrician said to start trying breast milk um but i had gone to start with dairy-free breast milk and so i'd gone dairy-free for the last few months and then i started breastfeeding her with a dairy-free diet um and then to slowly add in the dairy okay.
[12:30] Got it all right.
[12:31] Um
[12:35] I started sleeping on the couch so that I could set an alarm to pump in the evenings through the night since my breastfed baby slept most of the night. I got my milk supply up, but I had to pump every three hours, so I was kind of just stuck on my own. Um.
[12:54] I sacrificed a lot, and I felt like it was my responsibility to be able to provide food for her, and I just, I wasn't, I wasn't, I wasn't able to do it. So the sleeping arrangement left me to further separate from my husband. I fell back into, like, absolutely no contact. My anxiety was back. It was way worse than it was before. I found myself constantly apologizing to my husband and my kids for being a grump or a monster. One day I realized that I was, this was really going to be affecting my kids. So I forced myself to keep everything in, to stay calm, to hold my tongue, to be as happy and calm as I could all day long. And I forced myself to spend more time playing with the kids than cleaning. And I tried to keep those things separate. It was exhausting. And so it worked for everybody except for my husband, because by the time the kids were in bed at night, that was when I could just relax and let go. And that was when all of my frustration could be released. And so I would just rage clean the kitchen, the living room, and I'd sit down and watch a show.
[14:08] We weren't sleeping in the same bed. We weren't eating together because dinnertime usually landed on baby's bedtime. time um we weren't spending our evenings together um i felt like we had kind of just become roommates any advance he had was rejected through a mix of stress and a lack of emotional connection, um our twins continue to struggle to eat um and i'm usually the only one that can get um, our one twin to finish her bottle i feel like i was um i felt like i was doing everything on my own I would have to get the babies ready for bed put them in bed, and often even if my husband would put the toddler to bed she would still ask for me at the end, I would have to ask for help to do the dishes and I would have to ask for help if they were crying babies I had to put the toddler, I had to feed both twins, I was the one to do diaper changes and change clothes and remember the toothbrush and I was constantly having to remember everything sorry what does remember.
[15:12] The toothbrush mean.
[15:13] Um like uh for our toddler brushing her teeth at night okay just just little things just all the little things i had to be the one to remember to do them if they were going to get done um i would plan events and make them happen and my husband would go along and usually not so pleased with them um he i noticed he started spending more time on his phone more time in the garage so i spent more time watching my tv um, Even a show that I knew he didn't like because I was like, oh, well, if he's going to be in the garage, then I get to watch my show. He would go to bed without saying anything.
[15:55] Anytime we would have something to discuss, whether it was as big as vaccines or what to do with our rental property or as small as TV shows that our toddler was allowed to watch. I felt like there was no discussion and that my opinion wasn't valued. um i would put in all the work raising them but i wasn't i didn't feel like i could make the decisions outside of our daily routine um if i did insist on something like an activity or a task that needed to be done around the house i felt like it was treated as an inconvenience so i defaulted to asking permission for even the smallest things which wasn't fun for me um i knew he wanted a physical connection but i felt almost no emotional connection so again i felt like there was no way to um bridge the gap i felt like he stopped caring and that he was checking out.
[16:42] I was frustrated he was frustrated um so that brings us to recently over the holidays we went um to arizona which was a really stressful trip our kids the twins don't travel well they already don't sleep well they don't sleep well when we travel i didn't really want to go my husband insisted so we went um he wanted to work um on this trip uh because his vacation was only partially paid um so i understood that i get that he wants to provide so we went um the kids had been sick for two weeks they were finally feeling better so we got in the car and we went um they slept horribly i couldn't pump because i ended up spending all night holding our breastfed baby for reasons between being sick or just wanting to be snuggled.
[17:30] So it was just really stressful. The whole week was really stressful. I was exhausted. I needed sleep. And finally, one night I just broke down. I cried myself to sleep holding my baby. The next day was a breaking point for me. I was crying in the playroom with the twins, and my husband walked right past us and went to work. I didn't get a text asking about me or checking on me. I felt like I was totally abandoned. Um, when he asked if I, when he normally asks if I'm okay, I always say I'm fine. So he kind of just gets into like, don't ask, don't worry about it. She'll be fine. But I was in like full on tears, bawling. Um, it was horrible. Um, so when he came back, he said he was going to dinner with his friend and then he went off to work in his dad's shop in the backyard.
[18:17] Um, and that was, that was a low point for me. Um, so when he came back in to help with nap time, um, we, I totally broke down. We had our long overdue talk in the middle of the playroom, which was uncomfortable for both of us, uh, being at his dad's house. Um, after we talked... and shared our feelings i felt like we took a huge step in the right direction, uh we weren't fixed we weren't done discussing um we had a lot that we needed to work on he decided to go back to eight hour days he'd been working 10 hour days um all week um hoping that maybe that more time at home would be helpful um so it hasn't been two weeks since that conversation, and i've spent the last two weeks reflecting on myself because i know i have a lot of areas that need improving um so when um so I've been paying attention to the music I've been listening to and what I'm doing on my downtime and um paying attention to the stressors I know I already have and trying to be calm and trying to be playful and all that stuff with the kids and I really felt like I was getting better and so when my husband sent me a text saying that he had contacted you, I was kind of floored a little bit because I felt like we just had the conversation. We obviously had more work to do, but I was a little taken aback that the conversation with you was going to be happening today because I thought we were kind of….
[19:46] Because you weren't expecting such a wonderful delight in your life. I mean, listen, it's like winning the lottery. I mean, you don't expect it, but what a joy.
[19:56] What a joy.
[19:57] What a joy. Got it.
[19:59] So yeah um but anyways that kind of gets us caught up to now and, Yeah, that's sort of where we're at at the moment. That was a lot.
[20:09] No, no, I appreciate that. That's very detailed, and I appreciate that. It's great to know. Great to know. All right. Okay, so, and is there more that you want to add before we start chatting further?
[20:23] Nope, that's great, I think. One thing I want to say, I don't want it to seem like I've been ungrateful for everything she does, and I know that it's obviously a lot of work. It's more work than I understand to manage a household, to take care of three kids under three. I mean, the effort that it takes to do all that well is not lost on me, and I appreciate and love her for it. And so, yeah, I just definitely wanted to get out of that away. Right. Right.
[20:52] I mean, it certainly is a big disappointment when something I assume that you guys have looked forward to for a long time, such as having kids and all that, it turns out to be. I mean I wouldn't say like it's a slog right I mean it's difficult it's not what you were expecting you know the Hallmark cards and you know all of the tinkly music it all feels like a bit of a lie at times when it's this hard right.
[21:16] Yeah and it's it's been such a delightful surprise having children and I never cared for kids much until I had my own.
[21:27] Well that's because they steal your wife anyway sorry go on little thieves.
[21:33] Total winner exactly exactly.
[21:34] So like you have to go back to the breasts and mark your territory you've had him long enough back to daddy anyway so we're going exactly.
[21:42] Exactly that's why i don't i don't harbor any ill will towards my bottle fed daughter for that reason.
[21:46] Yeah got it that makes sense it makes sense, Is Alice shaking her head in horror?
[21:53] Yeah, she's upset.
[21:54] Too much knowledge of how the male brain works. Please stop.
[21:57] We'll have another call later.
[21:59] Yeah, got it. How are things between you at the moment?
[22:07] They're actually really good. It's very interesting. Whether this is coincidence or not, the day that I told her that we were going to have a call, we ended up having sex that night. And so I just.
[22:18] Well, I hope I was on the, I hope I was on the radio for you.
[22:22] Yeah.
[22:22] There's nothing more romantic than the big chatty forehead yammering on about politics. All right.
[22:28] Yeah. So, uh, but it's, I feel like the, the prospect of having to get all this out and kind of discuss it with, uh, an impartial third party, I think has caused both of us to kind of come to a reckoning of where we're at. And we've both acknowledged some things where we could improve and over the last, you know, four or five days, we've actually, you know, things have seemed much better. And the causes for that are unknown.
[22:54] Right. Okay. Now, what do you guys anticipate that I'm going to want to start with?
[23:01] Well, I'm very interested to get into our early childhood. Life histories.
[23:06] Life histories. So, Bob, of course, I guess you've known about me for a while. Alice, am I like just some oddball on the internet that your husband wants to talk to for no reason that you can completely comprehend it all or?
[23:18] No, actually, in the two months that we shared the drive to the NICU, we listened to you quite a few times, so.
[23:26] Okay, good. So, like, it's not totally out of left field, right? Okay, got it. Okay, got it. Right. Okay. Well, yeah, I mean, I do think that the place to start is childhood, right? I mean, look, I'm going to assume, Allison, and obviously I'm no doctor, but I'm going assume that if you've had the sort of, as you said, sort of blind rage before the period and so on, have you had your hormones checked, you know, all of that sort of medical kind of stuff?
[23:54] Um i have not that is something that again i it's one of those like pride things like i feel like i you know should be able to keep it under control and so i put it off and put it off and put it off and it's definitely something that i should look into.
[24:11] I think it's a good idea um i mean in general it's a good idea but particularly if you might be having hormone related mood swings uh you know there's only a certain amount that that sort of self-knowledge can do with regards to that kind of stuff so i would strongly recommend it i mean it's not it's not a matter of willpower right i mean if if your body just went haywire because you know you produced one and then two actual human beings like this that's a big thing that's a big thing and so uh it's not a matter of willpower or virtue if your body just you know went a little off the reservation when it came to producing two actual human beings and then you know merging with them right uh for breastfeeding and so on right so um that's not a pride thing i think correct now.
[24:59] I think that's right.
[25:00] All right so all right uh do you bob do you mind if we start with alice yeah.
[25:07] Sounds good she's a lot that's great.
[25:10] Early childhood, what was going on when you were a baby um.
[25:18] So i um man i don't even know how to start this okay so um my man okay so this is hard i have three siblings a sister and two brothers and none of us share a father.
[25:38] Oh really.
[25:42] So I guess I can start there My sister was raised by her dad For her whole life She's lived in.
[25:50] Me and my brother That would save me a bit of editing afterwards We want to keep you guys as anonymous as possible Sorry.
[25:57] They lived in another state And so it was me and my two brothers My older brother lived with my grandparents Since before I was born And then on my fifth.
[26:12] Birthday... Why did your older brother live with your grandparents?
[26:15] I have heard all sorts of stories, but my mom was not living a life in which was safe for children. She was into drugs and promiscuity and all sorts of things. And so she and my grandparents felt it would be best for him to go live with my grandparents.
[26:34] Okay.
[26:35] So then she proceeded to have two more children, um, which I don't remember.
[26:41] Like trashy, unstable men kind of thing.
[26:43] Um, yeah. So my dad, um, when I was born in the state that we lived in, they required a man to be written as the father in the birth certificate. You couldn't leave a blank.
[26:55] Yeah.
[26:56] So my mom had three different people that it could possibly be. And she had two of them take a paternity test. And both came back negative. The other one she couldn't find because it was a fling. And so she put down...
[27:13] Well, not just a fling, but I assume she didn't know his last name and all kinds of crazy stuff.
[27:19] Yeah, he was like a roommate of a friend or something. And so she didn't do his test and she couldn't get a hold of him. So she put down her boyfriend, her current boyfriend, as my dad on my birth certificate, which of course came up later as a problem.
[27:32] Holy crap. So she just elevated him to, she just yoinked him into like paternity against his will and against his knowledge, right?
[27:42] No, he was aware and I don't remember him at all. His parents would send me Christmas gifts every year.
[27:53] Sorry, so he agreed to be the father?
[27:55] Yeah.
[27:56] But why?
[27:58] I have no idea.
[28:01] Okay. Um, and you, you have confirmed that he agreed to be the father.
[28:09] Um, yeah, he would, um, he later went to jail after I moved in with my grandparents and he would send me letters from jail referring to himself as my dad.
[28:23] Okay.
[28:24] Which I never received because my parents, my grandparents felt like that was not appropriate, but.
[28:28] So the only guy that your mother could get to be your dad was a guy who went to prison.
[28:34] Yes okay um.
[28:38] And very sorry very sorry about all of this of course i mean it's it's monstrous and tragic and horrible um.
[28:46] And so i've never met my either of my brother's dads um.
[28:51] I know we just skip to your brother now, right?
[28:55] Oh, yeah, sorry. So my older brother, I've never met his dad and my younger brother, I've never met his dad. So I don't know, like any of their... history or situations or anything like that right um so then i lived with my mom until i was five, um i remember very little of that experience i remember we moved a lot we lived in a lot of places um we were always living with friends of hers life was just kind of always on the move, um i remember on my fifth birthday um there was a bunch of people at the house and the police came and my grandpa came over and um the police had called my grandparents and said that they were going to get me and my brother um who still lived with her and they were going to put us into child protective services um and my grandpa said that he wanted to go and he wanted to be there, And so when he got there, he decided to take us home instead.
[30:03] Was there a particular incident that caused the protective services to be called?
[30:10] I don't know what the nail in the coffin was, but I know there was always drinking and drugs. And I don't remember this. I've just been told this. But it was just not a place that was suitable for children.
[30:26] Well, no, but that had been the case since forever, right?
[30:30] Yeah. And I don't know what exactly what event led to the official call to get us out of there. I don't know. I don't know what the actual event was.
[30:44] Okay. Got it. okay so then you went to live with your grandparents or just your grandfather.
[30:51] My grandparents okay.
[30:52] And this is the grandparents on your uh mother's side yeah.
[30:56] Um and so who.
[30:58] Raised your mother.
[30:59] Yes okay yeah that's not insignificant but okay, um and they had their youngest child was still in high school all their other kids were grown and started families of their own um so i lived there with my aunt and my two brothers and.
[31:20] Sorry just to um how how how bad was your mother's drug problem i mean it can be all the way from weed to straight up crack and stuff right.
[31:28] Um i know that there was a very long stint with meth um she's tried everything from marijuana to meth and anything in between okay um so.
[31:39] It's about as bad as it can be right.
[31:41] Yeah yeah yeah um and then for the next, 13 years until i graduated um my mom kind of bounced in and out um she would clean up and, get herself straight and then my grandpa would buy her a house and we'd move in with her for a little bit and then next thing i knew we were back living with my grandparents sometimes with her sometimes without her um and i it was just kind of all happening um we were kind of by ourselves most of that time whether she was around or not um and so we just kind of i don't know it was a very.
[32:26] Um what is the word chaotic it was chaotic but it was like i i didn't really have a like a place that i lived like i didn't have like a home because it was like oh i was living with my mom for a little bit and then i was back with grandma and then i would live with mom for a little bit and then i'd be back with grandma and it was just kind of this back and forth, crazy madness for the next bit um i think they bought her two different houses that we moved into with them for a little bit um with her for a little bit and it was a revolving door of men and old the high school friends that were also into things that they shouldn't be into that weren't kid appropriate and we'd end up back at our grandparents house and and she'd go she did a couple times she ended up in jail when i was in high school she ended up in jail um for what for drug use well.
[33:21] Usually it takes quite a bit to get a drug user to into.
[33:25] Jail i don't know exactly i just knew that she was on drugs and so i don't know if she was she might have been caught.
[33:31] With uh yeah she might have been caught with the kind of volume of drugs that would lead people to suspect she was dealing right.
[33:36] Yeah yeah so i i don't know exactly what the um what it was but it was um she ended up in jail and um she went through um all the steps and she she'd been to rehabs and different things and so she'd been through like the 12-step program and i always would get the the letter of apology um and so i remember getting i'm.
[34:01] Sorry to interrupt but isn't her brain just completely fried at this point.
[34:05] Like it's.
[34:06] Like almost like there's no person left right because it's just it's just the drugs.
[34:10] Yeah yeah um and so i would get the letter of apology and um when i was 15 um, I needed my social security card or number, whatever, to get my learner's permit. And they couldn't find it. They couldn't figure out who I was. My name didn't match any of their records. And so they found that my last name wasn't actually the last name I'd been using for 15 years. It was the boyfriend that signed the birth certificate that we didn't know about. um so we had to go through legal processes to get my name changed so that i could get my learner's permit in my actual name or the name that i had gone by um and so that letter i remember getting when i was 15 and she was explaining the whole that she'd put his name down on the birth certificate and who my real dad was um that she thinks is because obviously he didn't take a paternity test when she did find him he had drowned um and passed away so he didn't um we never got to do that paternity test to find out if he really was but he was the last option that she had oh.
[35:25] This is the guy she couldn't find before.
[35:26] Yes how.
[35:28] Did she find him.
[35:29] Um sorry you mentioned.
[35:31] That and i missed it but.
[35:32] Oh sorry um so after i was born um i don't know if it was months or years but she ran into the roommate that he shared that his roommate that she was friends with. Right. And she asked about him and he said that he, um, I think I was like three months old and he was back with his family, um, on the other side of the country. Um, and he had drowned in a boating accident.
[35:58] Um, so anyway, so I have no connection to that. I don't really know about him or anything. Um, And then later on, high school, my mom remarried somebody that she'd known in high school, and she moved in down the street from us. And she'd cleaned up, and things were good, and my brother moved in with her, but I chose to stay with my grandparents because I was tired of the back and forth. um and she had hired a private investigator to find um this guy my father um and she found his family and all this stuff and she tried to contact them on facebook and um we have since tried to do dna testing but they are not very reliable people and anytime we would have a plan or do any sort of whatever they wouldn't hold up their side and so i still haven't done that completed that dna testing to find that missing link there but right okay, um yeah so that's like the growing up portion i think and.
[37:17] Uh how did things go for you as a teenager.
[37:21] Um i they were i don't know they were they were good i life was good i was happy i um for a long time was not the biggest fan of my grandma specifically um which obviously is issues with my own mom.
[37:39] Um, I was really close with my grandpa. Um, and then I, um, was in high school seriously dating, um, this guy and who was not religious. My family is extremely religious. And, um, my aunt who I trust with like literally anything sat me down and she's like, you need to really consider this like you know if you're wanting to go down this road like you need to consider that you guys have different ideas of life and um things beyond that um and then she opened up to some of the things that I didn't know about my own childhood um like I didn't know that um my like the story about when my grandparents took us in I didn't know a lot of that background story um information um and so that really changed my relationship with my grandparents knowing that like because i felt like i was taken away from my mom right if that makes sense and i would obviously what that was not really she was making choices that made it so that i couldn't stay with her um and so it wasn't my grandparents fault it was her fault and so that really shifted um kind of my allegiances at that point um but with i don't know i went through high school I was really involved in sports and clubs and I felt like life was really good.
[39:07] Okay. All right. And then?
[39:12] And then after I graduated, I went to college in a neighboring state. I got my degree in education. That's too much information. I dated a little bit here and there. Nothing serious. And then I don't really know how much detail about that thing. um after college i moved to another state that i thought i would never live in because it sounds like a horrible place to live um and i went there to do my student teaching and my plan was to go back to go back to a different state um go back to the state that i went to college in sorry you're.
[39:55] Sleep deprived you can you can make mistakes no problem.
[39:58] And um but then i ended up getting a job in this other state and stayed there worked there as a teacher for four years before i met bob we met online um on a dating app and uh yeah, all right and.
[40:23] Sorry how long have you guys been together overall.
[40:26] So we met in uh august of 2018 we got married in july of 2019 okay.
[40:33] Got it and um you are both uh i was you know i hate to say sort of very religious because that sort of seems.
[40:43] Like there's some right amount.
[40:44] And it's too much.
[40:45] Yeah i.
[40:46] Assume that let's just say your faith is is is quite strong right because i mean certainly you uh you said you had no uh sex That's before marriage and so on, right?
[40:55] Correct. Yeah, we're both practicing Christians, yes.
[40:58] Okay. All right. Okay. And how long were you married before you had your children?
[41:09] So we were married in July of 19, and then we had our first daughter in January of 22. So two and a half years.
[41:20] Okay. Okay. Alice, what's the story of your relationship with your family of origin at the moment?
[41:29] At the moment, with my grandparents, I'm very close. I talk to my grandma on the phone at least once a week. They live states away half the year, and they live in the same town as us half the year. And so when they do live here, we spend lots of time at their house, very close. with my mom. She lives in the state that I grew up in. And she we have, It's almost like an aunt-niece kind of relationship. It's not really a mother-daughter type of relationship because I don't feel that kind of connection, but we keep in touch. We're very friendly and things during trips, during family trips when we do see each other. And she's flown here a couple times since the twins were born uh to visit and play with the kids and stuff um but it's definitely not like as close as i am with my grandparents and.
[42:43] Um okay and what happened to the guy who was on your birth certificate who was in prison.
[42:49] I have the only i know that uh my grandparents filed a restraining order against him while he was still in prison, and I have heard nothing since then.
[43:02] Okay, got it.
[43:03] Nowhere he ended up. Okay.
[43:10] And have you ever had a conversation with your mother and grandparents about your childhood?
[43:23] A little bit here and there. I've talked to my grandma about it. um usually any conversation with my grandpa just turns into him saying things like oh i'm so impressed with who you've become with all the craziness and that's kind of the extent of what he talks about um i've talked to my grandma a little bit um she doesn't like to share a lot, um she recently um opened up about uh the restraining order and things um with the guy that was on the birth certificate and showed me like the letters and the court documents and stuff that they had um but there's really not a lot of opening up on their end um i ask a little bit but um, It's usually pretty vague.
[44:15] Your questions or their answers?
[44:17] Their answers.
[44:18] Their answers, okay. Have they ever talked about why they think your mother went so haywire?
[44:28] She dabbled a little bit with marijuana and drinking in high school. But then when she got married to her first husband, he got into... harder things like cocaine um and then she got into those kinds of drugs as well and so that was kind of her gateway into the harder stuff um and then he cleaned up and he remarried he's got two more kids now um good job my mom just never really recovered from that.
[45:05] Recovered from the.
[45:07] Drugs she would clean up and then she'd fall back and she'd clean up and then she she's kind of the she wants to save everyone, in the way that she let me explain she, it's interesting because she doesn't feel this way about her own children, but she feels this like sense of um like need to help people um especially people who are like her who who have dealt with drug abuse and are trying to recover and don't have a place to live she's always like taking people in like that and um she's always you know figuring out some sort of roommate situation with somebody who's like you know down and out because of whatever reasons and she's just always kind of like focused on helping those kinds of people um but that's not really she doesn't put that kind of effort into her children.
[46:12] Okay. Got it. Got it. So what's her status now? I assume she's clean or.
[46:22] She is. She is clean. Um, she's been clean. As far as I know for about two years now, she's, she goes back and forth, but the past two years she's been clean. Um, she has been working. Um, she's never really had like a career. She just kind of does, you know, She works a lot in the service industry, so she's always a cashier or something to that effect. And so she's had a stable job for the past two years. She's living in a house. So she's stable now and has been for a few years.
[47:03] And when did she last do drugs or drink?
[47:07] Um... as far as i know it's been two years i talked to her um on the last trip that she had here and um she said that she had been clean since she started this job and it's been about two years, um and she was very proud of herself and the fact that her only vice left was smoking which i think is really gross but she was very proud of her two years of clean but she should be i mean i know So I can't even begin to understand the complexities of addiction in that way.
[47:45] Okay. And how is she with your kids?
[47:50] She is really great. She loves to play with them when she is around. She texts me asking about how they are. When she does come to visit, she's playing with them and coloring with them, well, with our toddler. um she's constantly buying stuff for them um in fact she said that my grandparents are bringing all sorts of stuff for their birthdays and stuff that um but she's she really wants to i don't know if she's trying to make up or if she what she's trying to do but she's always doing the gifts and And she does come play with them when she is in town.
[48:35] And what dysfunctional stuff was going on between you and her when you were little? I mean, was she violent? Was she verbally aggressive? Was there any sort of stuff going on that... you remember as particularly dysfunctional?
[48:54] I don't remember any sort of verbal or physical abuse of any kind. Um, I think it was mostly neglect in like me and my brother would be just kind of hanging out and she would go run to the store and then she just like, wouldn't be back for hours. Um, she would host parties at the house. Um, and so we would just kind of hang out in our rooms um so there wasn't any like physical or emotional abuse it was i would consider it more neglect.
[49:25] Well and which is abuse.
[49:28] But it's yeah.
[49:29] I mean do you know if she did she ever get a dui or or did she drive with you guys drunk or stoned or anything like that.
[49:38] Not to my knowledge i know she's had duis not with us in the car.
[49:41] Okay although that could have been what prompted to call child protective services in the past yeah.
[49:47] Yeah again not to my knowledge so.
[49:49] Okay got it and why do you think you haven't talked to your mother about, your experience uh experiences as a child because i mean that's all pretty terrifying stuff incredibly unstable and and alarming and and frustrating and isolating and all that right It's really tough to kind of get along with the other kids when your experience is so different, right?
[50:15] Yeah. I've talked to her about some stuff, but not really the early childhood stuff, partially because I don't remember a lot. Most of what I know is what I've been told.
[50:29] No, you have a lot to talk about with your mother, even without early childhood stuff that's hard to remember.
[50:35] Um we've we've talked about like uh the my dad stuff and um the like bouncing back between rehab and different things with living with her later um and usually it just turns into her um doing the whole like kind of sob story thing where it's like wasn't really her fault because of addiction and she, um, she's trying her best and all she ever did was try and try and try and try. And so it just kind of like, she kind of just shuts down if we get into any of the nitty gritty kind of stuff. So I kind of just quit trying to get into it.
[51:17] Okay. So that's selfish, right? Because it would give you comfort to talk about it and to be heard and understood and sympathized with, right?
[51:24] Yeah.
[51:25] So she's still selfish in this way. Is that I don't want to be unfair, but I also want to be blunt, right?
[51:32] Thank you.
[51:35] Sorry so is she uh.
[51:38] Yes i would agree with that.
[51:39] Okay um is is your understanding of theology of christianity that forgiveness must be earned.
[51:52] Um i am in my own personal beliefs.
[51:59] No no no sorry not your own personal beliefs your beliefs with regards to christianity Do you think that Christianity says that forgiveness does not need to be earned? In other words, you do not need to admit to your faults in order to be forgiven.
[52:17] Yeah, I think the forgive and forget is given, not earned, I guess.
[52:23] Well, forgive and forget is just kind of demonic, right? Because that's called enabling, which is where you ignore the sins of people and don't hold them to account. I mean, I think it's fair to say that Jesus and God himself hold people to account for their sins, right?
[52:40] Okay.
[52:42] And what is the mechanism with regards to God? What is the mechanism by which your sins are forgiven? What is the process?
[52:52] Repentance.
[52:53] Well, yeah, you have to admit fault and you have to repent and you have to make restitution wherever possible, right? In other words, you have to suffer for your sin, shame and guilt and remorse and sympathy and all of that. And then you have to change the behavior, obviously, right? There's no point saying, well, I've stopped strangling hobos last week, so I'm forgiven, so I guess I can start this week again, right? I mean, you have to take responsibility, you have to apologize, you have to focus on the harms you've done to others, you have to make restitution, and you have to change the behavior, right?
[53:25] Yeah.
[53:26] Okay, so of those steps, what has your mother completed?
[53:36] She, um, she's done the sorries and she's, I feel like she's...
[53:41] No, the sorries come after she fully acknowledges her faults.
[53:46] Um, she will...
[53:48] I thought you said she blamed addiction.
[53:50] Yeah, yeah, she...
[53:52] Okay, is taking responsibility compatible with making excuses?
[53:59] No.
[54:01] So has she taken responsibility? Okay, so if she hasn't taken responsibility, she can't apologize. You know, if my neighbor keys someone's car, I don't apologize because I didn't do it. So if she is taking her free will and ascribing it to this malevolent beast called addiction, then she's not taking responsibility.
[54:32] Yeah.
[54:34] Okay, so if she hasn't even taken responsibility, how is it possible to forgive her?
[54:47] I i mean maybe it's the the pity aspect of the i she's so, stunted because of the drug use i just i don't know if i can expect her to like i mean she's she's accepted that she's made mistakes as a mom and she's accepted like she's, vocalized that.
[55:15] Made mistakes as a mom. She was a meth addict who brought incredibly dangerous men over to her children. Made mistakes as a mom. The euphemisms are staggering.
[55:34] I guess that's why I don't know if she takes it to my ability.
[55:37] More meth.
[55:40] Very like general and very like surface level if that does that make sense sorry say again um i don't that's why i i'm not sure she's really taken responsibility because any sort of like, acceptance of no i'm.
[55:56] Absolutely sure she hasn't taken.
[55:58] Responsibility yeah i mean she'll say that because she'd.
[56:02] Taken responsibility you wouldn't be struggling with anxiety. That's the price of her not taking responsibility. Is that you struck her with anxiety and anger. and you attack yourself on a regular basis because your mother hasn't taken responsibility. Now, your father, who's drowned, we can pray for responsibility, but he can't take it directly, right? She causes you to suffer by not taking responsibility because you are angry with your mother, but you take away her responsibility for reasons I can understand and sympathize with, and I'm not blaming you for this, of course, right? But you're angry with your mother for absolutely appalling decisions she made as a mother. To do drugs, to drink, to smoke, to bring dangerous people in, to get arrested, to go to jail. To not know who your father is, is monstrous.
[57:18] Now Here's, I mean, I understand this I have a mother who made terrible decisions And, right? Now, as children, we're just terrified and devoted And messed up Almost beyond recognition Now, as an adult, We sympathize And we say, well, you know, she must have had a bad childhood And bad decisions and so on But what happens to all of that fear and anger? at having been so appallingly mistreated. Because, I mean, obviously I'm glad that there was no physical and verbal abuse. But neglect is worse than both. The only thing worse than neglect is sexual abuse.
[58:10] Because neglect is like, you know how they add a scent to gas so that you know when the gas is leaking? They add this like fart smell to gas, right? Now, the problem with neglect is it's like it's a silent killer. It shows up in ways you can't track or trace, like anxiety, like rage. Because you didn't have anyone around to help you learn how to manage and process and communicate your emotions. because I'm going to go out on a limb here and if I'm telling anything about your life that's false, I beg you to correct me. But generally, children in that kind of chaos and danger aren't allowed to have any emotions at all, that manifest in any real way because you were desperate for your mother to not bring dangerous people over. But if you had expressed to her that desperation, don't bring these dangerous, crazy people over, what would she say? What would she have said?
[59:15] Probably just excuses about how they're friends and then they're fine.
[59:27] Right, so you would not be allowed to have any emotions that changed anything. Mama, please don't do drugs. Mama, please stop smoking. Mama, please stop drinking. Mama, please stop. Mama, I wish. Where's my dad? Where's my dad? I don't know, right? So your feelings, you can't have any feelings. Because the purpose of our feelings is to change our environment. You think of fight or flight, right? when you get the adrenaline because some cocaine bear is running at you or something like that, right? So you have fight or flight, and the fight or flight is put up your dukes or climb a tree. The emotions are supposed to translate into action. But that kind of chaos and neglect and danger, I mean, you couldn't even control where you were sleeping that night at times.
[1:00:20] Yeah.
[1:00:21] It means that your emotions are not allowed because nobody will listen, nobody will care, nobody will fix things, nobody will address the issues. You're just trapped like in this barrel rolling down a hill, right? Just bracing yourself and hoping for the best. But it means that your emotions could not help you. You could not express emotions. but the emotions churn within you. And nobody can tell you how to handle or deal with, in a productive way, your emotions, because all you see is your mother's passions dragging the family off a cliff. Into a kind of abyss. So emotions are also very dangerous. Your mother's desire for sexuality, your mother's desire for drugs. those are all emotions yeah.
[1:01:26] It's interesting you say that because i never really felt like, i mean maybe it's suppression or naive thinking or anything like that but i um like over the past several years have been told um by different family members that like i'm very cold with like not cold but i'm very like non-reactive with emotions and they're like i'll tell you something super shocking and you're just kind of like oh wow like that's a bummer or whatever like i they're like you don't usually react quite as much as like most people would or your emotions don't seem to be as like strong in certain things and almost desensitized which makes sense right.
[1:02:12] Well they would be desensitized because i mean my daughter when she was younger she had a sad corner right so she'd get upset about something and she'd go stand in the corner which would be my indication to say, hey, what's going on? And listen to her and try to understand what was upsetting her and talk her through it and get her to learn how to manage her emotions and all of that, which her mother is very good at, so she's better at it in many ways than I am. So, the purpose of parenting, as you know, is to help your children to respect and recognize and talk about their feelings. Because your feelings are there. to help you. So as a kid, you were just hanging on like if you could imagine a roller coaster where you're not strapped in and it's just turning all over the place, whipping you all over the place, and you're just hanging on trying not to die. Being out of control of the entire environment. Now, how was your sleep, Alice? And Bob, I haven't forgotten you. We'll get to you. But Alice, how was your sleep as a kid?
[1:03:19] I don't remember having any sleep issues. I didn't have problems going to sleep, staying asleep. I didn't have any sleepwalking or anything like that. I don't remember having any issues sleeping.
[1:03:33] And do you remember having any issues with anxiety as a kid?
[1:03:41] Um, I don't think so. Like, I don't, I don't remember having any issues with anxiety.
[1:03:48] That's fine. Do you remember having any issues with anger?
[1:03:52] No. Okay. So I don't, okay. I don't remember this, but in first or second grade, I completely forgot about this. I did go to the school counselor once a week or something, and I was supposed to write in a journal and talk about feelings and stuff. I don't remember any of this. I just remember talking to my grandparents about it later on. And I thought every kid went to the To the therapist or the school counselor On a regular basis to talk about their feelings, but that was not the case um And I don't know, If it was like anger or sadness or what sort of feelings that I was meant to be talking about or what triggered me to have to go there. But I do know that in early years, I did see a school psychologist for a weekly little visit to talk and write in a journal. So, I mean, there were definitely things. I don't remember them.
[1:04:57] Right. Okay. And you said as a teenager, you had a pretty good time in sports and so on. So as a teenager, did any of your friends know or somebody who just met you, would they know or identify that you had a meth addict mom and no dad?
[1:05:18] Um i grew up in a really really small town so most people knew about my situation and that i lived with my grandparents and that my mom was in and out of um in and out of like rehabs and stuff so most of them kind of knew i don't think any of most of them knew um like the severity of it okay.
[1:05:40] Now let's say somebody had met you uh from out of town right so i'm out of town it comes and they see you at a party when you were, I don't know, 17, say, or 16 or 17 or 18, would they have any sense that things were going badly with your life? Or would you be like super fun, life of the party, or at least functional or appear functional to the point where people wouldn't have any idea?
[1:06:06] I was pretty fun, life of the party. In fact, anybody that I had talked to, like about anything, like even in college, they were always very shocked that I had any sort of weird family situation.
[1:06:20] So you've got a very powerful social mask, right? You're able to make hell seem like heaven in a way, right? So what's your theory as to what happens to all of that chaos and fear and uncertainty and anger when you mask it up for so long?
[1:06:39] It's buried pretty deep and it has to go somewhere eventually.
[1:06:42] And what do you think has triggered it?
[1:06:48] Um... I don't know. I think it's just the amount of stress, maybe, that is coming from.
[1:07:02] No, that's an effect. That's not a cause.
[1:07:08] I'm not sure, then.
[1:07:11] Well, I'm going to put forward a theory, and you can tell me if it fits or not.
[1:07:16] Okay.
[1:07:16] Obviously, although you may be a bit of a people pleaser, the last thing I want you to do is please me. So if it's wrong, just say, it's wrong. And I'll thank you for that. Well, you're out of control through circumstances outside yourself with the kids. You're back to being a kid. You can't make things happen. You can't will things to happen. and you have, in this case, three, like you had a mom and other people in your life who just did whatever the hell they wanted and you couldn't manage or control any of it, aren't you back there now? You know, when it's just you in a social event, you can make things happen. You can be in control, but man, you get kids, you're out of control. You're no longer in control, right?
[1:08:16] Yeah.
[1:08:16] And isn't that kind of like your childhood? So this is a flashback. A long, extended flashback. And because I'm going to assume, Bob, that you're a reasonable guy, you listen to this show, doesn't mean we're perfect, but, you know, generally reasonable guy. So as a kid, Alice, who could you take things out on if you did?
[1:08:48] My little brother.
[1:08:49] Ah, your little brother. Okay. And what happened with him? Sorry, I'm just taking a moment because I'm a little brother. I'll be fine. I'll be fine. How did things play out with him when you were tense, upset, stressed, angry, whatever?
[1:09:06] I pestered him and I don't know. We had a lot of family that lived really close. And so me and my cousins were close in age. And so he got left out of a lot of stuff. stuff and um he did looking back how.
[1:09:25] Much younger was he.
[1:09:26] He's five years younger than me okay got it so you would.
[1:09:31] Exclude him is that right.
[1:09:31] Yeah yeah and.
[1:09:33] That makes sense i mean five years is a big old gap right.
[1:09:35] Yeah yeah okay what else i was generally just i don't know we would, overall we would get along um but then we would just fight all the time and i was always egging him on and overall.
[1:09:51] We would get along and then we would fight all the time i'm sorry i uh i.
[1:09:56] Just broke my brain uh listening to that part of the story.
[1:09:59] So please feel free to.
[1:10:00] Revisit that little conundrum okay now we get along oh now okay got it now we get along in the past when we were young, um we we fought a lot and we're always getting under each other's skin and i would egg him on a lot. Um, yeah, I was not a very nice sister.
[1:10:24] Well, tell me about what Bob mentioned about you swearing at the children.
[1:10:31] Yeah, I, um, I like, it's interesting because I have to like say things out loud. I can't like, when I'm really frustrated i end up saying them out loud but it's usually very quiet because again i'm trying to keep it to myself as much as possible and so in my own like rage cleaning and things the the swearing has come up and.
[1:11:02] I have to say things out loud you've had a whole bunch of these, you know i have to rage i have to i have to rage clean i i have i just i just feel too distant i just i have to do this these are all excuses like the most dangerous thing that you inherited from your mother as excuses. You don't have to say things out loud. You have a choice.
[1:11:24] Right?
[1:11:25] No, you have a choice. Because when you listen back to the beginning of this, you'll hear these phrases that you use. Well, I'm just this way, and I have to do it this way, and this is how it has to be, and this is how I express myself, and it's like, no, these are all choices. Yeah. Right? These are all choices. So tell me about the swearing of the children What's the circumstance where that's come up?
[1:11:50] Um So When They wouldn't go to sleep in the middle of the night And they're screaming Hang on.
[1:12:01] Hang on, hang on Why are they screaming?
[1:12:03] Because they're They don't want to go back to sleep I don't.
[1:12:07] Why are they screaming? I mean children don't just randomly scream, right?
[1:12:11] Yeah Well, I mean they'll be crying i'm trying to soothe them in some way whether they are over tired.
[1:12:20] Hang on sorry why are they crying i mean we can we can go back and forth right but why are they crying because children's emotions are not random right i mean i've been a stay-at-home dad for 16 years i worked in a daycare for years i know a fair amount about the old kid thing yeah and my wife is is um actually trained in this stuff but children's Emotions aren't random. And the children's emotions are there to help you as a mother, right?
[1:12:48] Yeah.
[1:12:49] I mean, children cry, babies cry at night so they don't die, and we don't want them to die, so we should be happy. I mean, I get it's a bit jarring, but we should be happy that they cry at night, because otherwise we can't keep them alive. So why are they crying and screaming at night?
[1:13:09] I mean, comfort? Comfort? they need food they have some sort of need that needs to be met in some way.
[1:13:20] No no i get that and so you go in and but you end up swearing at them so something causes this escalation right.
[1:13:27] Yeah so i'm.
[1:13:29] Not saying why do babies cry i just told you they cry so we can keep them alive right.
[1:13:33] It's worth mentioning too that we we have a pretty small house and so right now we have our bed in our bedroom and then right next to our bed we have both of them in their own little crib. And so it's difficult to have any kind of normal sleep routine ourselves when they're in there. And obviously they're in there so that we can hear them and all that.
[1:13:59] Yeah, none of this leads to swearing at the children, although I appreciate the setting of the scene. So why did they end up crying and screaming at night?
[1:14:08] I mean, they obviously wake up crying because they have some sort of need. And so I would be stressed to fill that need as quickly as possible and trying to get them sorry why.
[1:14:18] Why are you stressed to fill that need as quickly as possible.
[1:14:21] So they don't wake each other up or the toddler up but you can't.
[1:14:26] Sorry maybe i misunderstood something but you can't control that.
[1:14:31] Yeah.
[1:14:36] Trying to control the uncontrollable and being stressed, isn't that your childhood?
[1:14:41] Yeah.
[1:14:43] But you can't control whether babies cry. You can't control whether they wake the other kids up. I mean, obviously, you try and comfort them and so on.
[1:14:52] Yeah.
[1:14:53] I mean, for sure, if the child... Okay, so imagine a baby, imagine being a baby, waking up in the middle of the night and your mother is incredibly stressed. what's that like for you as a baby?
[1:15:11] Probably scary.
[1:15:14] Yeah. I mean, why is mom stressed?
[1:15:25] Is that a question for me to answer? Why is mom stressed?
[1:15:29] Yeah, because there's a danger.
[1:15:31] Yeah.
[1:15:32] There's wolves, there's disease, there's famine, there's soldiers there's it's it's it's scary right yeah i mean what calms children down is a calm mother yeah so i mean rationally you're doing the opposite of what will cause them to not wake each other up yeah and obviously you guys are very intelligent and you know really devoted parents, so this is not an IQ issue, it's not, right? So by getting really tense about your children crying, they are more likely to escalate and get, now they're frightened. Before they were just, oh, I need some food or whatever else, right? But now that mom appears to be terrified, now I'm really scared. Is that, do you think, part of the escalation or is it something else?
[1:16:28] That sounds exactly right.
[1:16:33] So what happens then when you try to get them to quiet down?
[1:16:39] It just kind of spirals and they get more scared and I get more stressed. And so then they get more scared and I get more stressed. And then I just explode in words that I shouldn't say, I guess. Well, that's horrible.
[1:16:54] So what have you said to them?
[1:16:57] Um, shut the F up and that's the worst of it. It's most of like, stop crying, stop crying, stop crying. And like, it's, it's not soothing. And I know that.
[1:17:12] Oh no, it's terrifying and it's going to escalate, right?
[1:17:15] Yes. Yes. And it's out of like desperation and I.
[1:17:21] It's, it's not out of desperation. That's an excuse. See, okay, let me ask you this. Have you ever told your mother to fuck off?
[1:17:33] No.
[1:17:34] Interesting. Interesting. So the mother who chose drugs over you and dangerous strangers over her own children, who screwed up your entire childhood and left you with massive emotional scars, you've never told her to fuck off, but your little baby, you will. In other words, you're more angry, you express more anger at your children, at your babies than your mother. Your babies, of course, being entirely innocent of doing you harm and your mother being massively guilty of insignificant amount of absolutely horrendous child abuse.
[1:18:15] Yeah.
[1:18:16] So why are you so nice to your mother and so angry at your little babies?
[1:18:29] I don't know.
[1:18:32] Oh, do you hear that? How people still try that with me after 20 years. It's really cute. It's great. No, you can say that for sure. And what am I going to say?
[1:18:41] I mean, maybe...
[1:18:43] What am I going to say?
[1:18:48] In her defense, there hasn't been a whole lot of... She hasn't listened to you in what I have. But yeah, it's...
[1:18:54] Those weren't short drives, brother. No, I'm going to say, well, of course you know. You may not know it consciously, but yeah, you know. All right, can we try this? I need to meet this mother of yours. Let's patch her in. No, I'm just kidding. Although that would be interesting. But do you mind if we just try role play so I can figure out what your mom's all about?
[1:19:19] Sure.
[1:19:20] Okay, so you be your mom. And I'm like, mom, listen, we really, really need to talk. I think that my completely screwed up childhood based upon you being a... kind of whore meth addict has really screwed me up and it's really coming out against my babies and we gotta we gotta clear the air here because i had an absolutely horrendous childhood, i mean you did every drug known to man you did every man known to god well and devil you neglected us you brutalized us with your absence you went to jail this was about as bad as things could be and I'm pissed. And right now, I'm sadly taking it out on my children. And I should be taking it out on you. So we need to talk.
[1:20:17] Okay, let's...
[1:20:28] Sorry, Mom, I didn't quite catch that.
[1:20:29] Um...
[1:20:35] Just dig in, be her. She's all imprinted in your brain. Just throw caution to the wind and be her. What would you say?
[1:20:42] Okay, what do you want to talk about? Specifically, where do you want to start?
[1:20:48] Okay. You were a meth addict. You were a crack addict. You were a drinker, a smoker, and you don't know who my father is. What the fuck is wrong with you? Like, seriously, how on earth could you make these decisions? How could you have three children by a couple of different men? and then just party on doing drugs and inviting these incredibly dangerous people into our house. Why didn't you ever listen to your children? Like, what the actual hell is wrong with you?
[1:21:21] I tried.
[1:21:22] No, you didn't try. You didn't try. Because you always went back to the drugs. and are you saying that you tried not to invite dangerous criminals into our house you tried not to but you just somehow mysteriously failed that's bullshit mom i need you to start taking some goddamn responsibility for your life, and stop blaming this addiction you chose all of this, Everybody knows that drugs are bad and nobody's an addict when they first start, but you chose to keep doing them and keep doing them and keep doing them and keep doing them throughout my entire childhood to the point where I didn't even know where the hell I was going to sleep at night. So I need some answers and I need you to take responsibility and stop making these pathetic excuses. I tried. You didn't try. You did what you wanted. You did what made you You feel good in the moment, and you didn't care how it affected your children, Mom.
[1:22:45] And you've never sat down with me once and initiated a conversation to take some of this burden off me. you're still almost as selfish as you were in the past I'm not sure what the hell has changed, what does your life look like without any excuses mom what does your life look like if you actually look at the horror the horrors the endless years of horrors you inflicted upon your children because of your selfish, choices, do you know how ashamed I was when I went to school do you know how ashamed I was we live in this small town, and everybody knows I got a crackhead mom, did you think about us at all do you think about us at all now, have you ever offered and said you know what kid I've really screwed up your childhood, rather than buying your kids all of this crap crap, I'm going to pay for you to go to therapy, or I'm going to go to therapy myself, and I'm going to sort this out, and I'm going to be honest and direct with you, and I'm not going to make any more excuses.
[1:24:15] So answer me, why did you choose what you chose? Why did you choose drugs over your children? Why did you choose criminals in jail over your own children?
[1:24:24] Because I was selfish.
[1:24:27] Okay. When did you first figure out you were selfish?
[1:24:37] Oh.
[1:24:38] How long have you known this for? because all you've done is blame circumstances and drugs and some guy you dated in high school. Now I find out that you've figured out that you were selfish. When did you figure that out? And why the hell didn't you tell me about this new knowledge? Or did you just realize it, like, right now? Right now that I'm talking to you?
[1:25:08] I guess I've... I've always known that I'm selfish. I just don't want to admit it.
[1:25:16] Right. So then you let me carry a burden rather than... Right? So you understand that I'm angry at you, right? You got that, right?
[1:25:25] Yeah.
[1:25:26] And then by wrapping yourself in this big-ass cocoon of self-pity, you make it seem mean for me to be angry at you. Why are you so selfish, do you think? Why did you sin so much? And so appallingly?
[1:25:57] Because it's a lot easier to put your own wants and things before, somebody else's needs.
[1:26:08] Right. Right. So you took the easy path.
[1:26:22] Yeah.
[1:26:23] So why don't you feel anything about what you're saying? These are just empty words. You might as well be reciting to me a grocery list rather than confessing the darkest sins of your soul. Do you feel anything about what I'm saying?
[1:26:53] I feel Horrible and worthless And, Embarrassed.
[1:27:10] So you feel horrible and worthless And embarrassed, right? that I'm the one, as your child, who has to have this conversation with you. Although I've known you for decades, I'm the one who has to initiate this. I'm the one who has to parent you. I'm the one who has to be in charge and in control. I'm the one who has to be mature. I'm the one who has to have self-knowledge. I'm the one who's got to be direct and honest. It's still continuing, this selfishness, right? So, if you're selfish and worthless and horrible, why should I let you around my children? Why should I let you around my marriage? Why should I let you around me? If this is who you are. Do you think it's healthy to have worthless, horrible people around you?
[1:28:12] No because I'm your mom and I'm trying.
[1:28:17] Stop saying that it's a lie, mom is not just a birth canal honey mom is actually parenting which you did fuck all of, and you're not trying because I'm the one who had to initiate this conversation, You're trying to gaslight me by being super nice to my kids, showering them with gifts and attention and caring. Do you know what that does to me? Do you have an idea what that does to me, mom, to see you be real nice to my kids? Oh, what a great grandmother. Look at all the paternal feelings she has. Look at all the paternal instincts. Look how nice she can be to children. Do you have any idea what that does to me? Has it even crossed your mind?
[1:29:11] No.
[1:29:12] Have you ever said, gee, you know, it must be really tearing up your heart to see me be so good with your kids, let's talk about it. Because you don't care. I don't really exist for you, do I, Mom? Not as an independent person whose thoughts and feelings you need to take into account or consider. Never crossed your mind how painful it would be to watch you be so nice to my kids.
[1:29:54] No, because I thought it was a way of trying to make up for things.
[1:30:05] Okay, I don't believe you. I don't think you can open your mouth without lying through your teeth. I don't think you've thought that at all I think you're just making something up, because if you knew that you had a lot to make up for you would talk to me about it and say gee, I have a lot to make up for let's talk about it which you've never once done so I think you're just lying I don't know that you can even open your mouth without lying, anymore or maybe that's been the case for decades I don't know, I think you're just saying stuff I don't think it means anything.
[1:30:46] I don't think there's anything that is real in you at all. How could there be, after all you've done and all you haven't done? You didn't even know, My father, you didn't know his name, and I had to find out decades later he died in a boat accident. And you know what had me thinking about this, Mom? So I was thinking about a son or a daughter who comes to me and says, Oh yeah, no, I've met this great girl. I've got a son. I meant this, she's really fun, she's pretty, she's funny, she's got a couple of quirks. She's got a bunch of kids, bye guys, she doesn't really know. And she does meth and crack, and she abandons her children regularly. Now, let's say you had a son. You have a son, right? So let's say that your son comes to you and says he's met someone like you were back in the day. What would you tell him to do?
[1:32:13] Run.
[1:32:14] Right. You would say you need to get away from her because she's toxic and dangerous. so if I would counsel my child to get away from someone like you why do I let someone like you around my children, if I would counsel my child to flee and run and change his name and address to get away from someone like you if I would throw my body between you and my son, why do I let you around me if you're that toxic and dangerous that I would do anything to get my son away from you if you met someone like you in the dating market.
[1:33:00] Why is my son worthy of protection? But apparently, I'm not. Do you see the problem? If I wouldn't let you around my son, why am I letting you around him now or me at all? I mean, I can't say my husband's a huge fan. So if you can tell me something real, something honest, something genuine, or show me any feeling at all, I'll consider it. But other than that, I can't for the life of me convince any part of me to want to have anything to do with you.
[1:33:48] Do you have anything real in there for me?
[1:34:10] So do you think that's what she would do in that kind of conversation, just go totally rubber-bones and lie every time she opened her mouth? It's not a relationship. It's like a dead soul. And a porn artist. Is it fair to say that you are angry with your mother?
[1:34:41] Why can't.
[1:34:42] You express it or why don't you and it's not a criticism it's genuine curiosity.
[1:35:01] I mean maybe it's pity maybe it's that I don't want to rock the boat maybe it's, No.
[1:35:11] It's fear. Because if you had confronted your mother as a child, what would have happened?
[1:35:24] Probably nothing.
[1:35:26] Oh, no, if you had kept confronting her. She would have dove even harder into drugs, right? Because drugs is how people manage negative emotions. if they're not interested in self-knowledge, or if they're opposed to it. And it very quickly becomes a self-sealing tomb, because you use drugs to deal with your negative emotions, which means, especially if there are children involved, you abuse and neglect children, which gives you even more negative emotions, which means you dive even more into the drugs. So you're afraid of causing your mother any negative stimulation, because of a fear, she will go harder into the drugs, or abandon you completely. Which, of course, as children, in the, you know, sort of how we grew up as a species, children cannot afford, can never afford to piss their parents off too much. So, you know, the old thing, a man's weakness is a pretend strength and a woman's strength is a pretend weakness. So, you are scared, I think, to confront her for fear of a disastrous outcome, and it would have been a disastrous outcome as a child.
[1:36:47] Yeah.
[1:36:47] Children abandoned by their parents just get eaten by wolves, right? They die.
[1:36:53] Yeah.
[1:36:55] So, a mother who chooses drugs and criminals and jail and DUIs over her own children, can't be contradicted, can't be questioned, can't be criticized, right? And how did you experience the role play?
[1:37:15] That was very eye-opening into the, I guess, the lack of relationship that we really have.
[1:37:24] Yeah, you guys can't talk about anything. And a pretend relationship Is bearing false witness, And not talking to people About things that are important to you Is also bearing false witness, Sorry, Bob, you were going to say?
[1:37:45] I just was going to say, my wife and I both looked at each other when you said that, when you were role-playing as Alice, and you said that my husband doesn't care for you, or doesn't like you very much. Because it's true, and I've never really, every time she's come around, she never has the kinds of conversations with my wife that I would expect a devoted grandmother to have with her daughter. Um, and I've, I've always kind of been cold towards her and resentful of her because of how she was as a mother. And so I think she- Oh.
[1:38:21] Bob, let's just cut to the chase. You hate that bitch. No, let's just cut to, I mean, let's just be frank. No, seriously.
[1:38:28] Yeah.
[1:38:29] I mean, you love your wife. Who, who, who's the person who did the most harm to your wife?
[1:38:34] Uh, it's her, it's her.
[1:38:35] Yeah. It's her mother, right?
[1:38:37] Yeah.
[1:38:38] I mean, her father didn't even know she existed.
[1:38:41] Correct.
[1:38:42] So it's not his fault. I mean, it's his fault for being a crazy drug addict and all of that, but he didn't abandon a child he never knew existed, right?
[1:38:51] Correct.
[1:38:52] So if you love someone, you cannot also love the person who harms them or who did them the greatest harm.
[1:38:59] And I was just listening to that two-part call you just released over the last couple of days, and that sort of struck me. And I've heard it before, but it was very interesting to hear it sort of in the context of, oh, I'm going to talk to Stef. Because, yeah, the people and the person that I love the most, it's nonsensical to try to maintain a relationship with people who have harmed them. It's foolish.
[1:39:25] Well, I mean, if you guys, this is for Alice if you haven't heard that show, but if you hired a babysitter for your children and you turned out that your babysitter had done drugs and invited criminals into the house, would you hire her back?
[1:39:37] No.
[1:39:38] Well, why the hell are you talking to your mom? Why are your children so worthy of protection, but you and Bob aren't? Your mother is an unrepentant criminal child abuser. And I'm sure that part of what's going on with you and your kids is that your mother would be in some drug-induced semi-coma, and you'd have to not, you couldn't wake her. You couldn't do things that would wake her. She'll be sleeping in in the morning. Oh, we've got to be quiet. Did that happen much?
[1:40:41] Not that I really remember.
[1:40:44] Oh, so if you and your, if she'd been on some all-night drug bender and then you and your brother were loud in the morning that, I'm not trying to, you know, I mean, it would seem to me that that might be an issue, but again, I don't know much about living with drug addicts, so.
[1:41:02] Yeah, we would just kind of go about our, you know, kind of keep to ourselves and I guess maybe on some level we knew to be quiet.
[1:41:16] And of course, I mean, I assume that your mom had a revolving door in her bedroom and there were just strange guys over a lot.
[1:41:22] Yeah.
[1:41:23] Right. So that's incredibly dangerous for you guys. especially you, because when you have creep criminal drug addicts over and you have a female child in particular your chance of being raped is astronomically high, yeah right I mean if there is a non biologically related male in the household, the chance of molestation and childhood sexual abuse and rape go up 32 times not 32% 32 times.
[1:41:57] Wow.
[1:42:01] And a lot of pedophiles will target single mothers to gain access to their children. So you guys were in severe danger. And plus, you know, I mean, you could have accidentally ingested some drugs. Maybe there were some brownies around, right? Maybe there was a pill that looked like candy, right? You guys were in like a daily shop-clawed lion's den of mortality.
[1:42:37] Yeah.
[1:42:45] So, honestly, why you'd let a monster like that around your kids is beyond me, but I can understand the fear in your mother as a whole, a fear of your mother as a whole. Bob, how long have you been listening to what I do?
[1:43:08] The better part of nine years, almost ten.
[1:43:10] Why aren't you protecting your family?
[1:43:14] That's a great question i i don't i don't like her around and she she has never been close enough to us in terms of where she's lived to have any kind of an impact it's always for like come.
[1:43:29] On man are you telling.
[1:43:30] Okay how.
[1:43:32] Often how often does your wife have any contact with her mother.
[1:43:37] Uh personally it's no more than maybe once a year whether we'll see her in person um is.
[1:43:44] That what i asked.
[1:43:45] Oh well i texting she'll text her how often would you say it i don't really know if, um every couple months it's not frequent oh.
[1:44:00] So you guys go months without any communication at all.
[1:44:04] Yeah okay so.
[1:44:06] Why is she in your life what's the plus.
[1:44:13] That's what i've there isn't one well that's what i've sort of wondered i mean i i don't know, obviously i and we'll get into this i expect with my mom but i i don't i don't see the need to have any kind of, real connection with family who have wronged you or have been abusive just out of familial obligation. I just, I don't see the need for it. And, If my wife wanted to talk to her, I tried to see that it was kept at arm's length.
[1:44:50] And if she were close, there's no way that I would let her get involved significantly with my family.
[1:44:56] You think you can create rational boundaries with crazy people?
[1:45:02] No, no.
[1:45:03] The problem is that she's got the key to the door to your house. The fact that she doesn't use it much at the moment doesn't mean that might not change at any time.
[1:45:11] I understand it's.
[1:45:14] The principle all right so sorry we spent a lot of time on that and and i want to bookmark this and bob if you can tell me a little bit about your childhood.
[1:45:22] Sure i uh alice is going to leave because our three-year-old's up and doing stuff and our twin might be so it'll just be me for a minute here which is totally fine um so i i am a uh i'm a twin i've got a identical twin brother um i have an older sister who's three years older and then a younger sister who is nine years older um i don't talk to my younger sister at all, mostly because she is pretty much under the control of my mom and i i haven't talked to my mom in um how long has it been the last time i talked to her was at my wedding reception that was in 2019. So it's been almost five years now. So a little bit about my childhood. So when I was growing up, my dad, he worked an awful lot. We had a, and still have a shop in the backyard of the home that I grew up in. My dad was back there all the time. So if he wasn't working there, he was working for the company that he had to drive maybe 20 minutes to go get to. So he spent an awful lot of time working. And so growing up, it felt like my dad was sort of aloof and he wasn't involved in raising us.
[1:46:43] So my mom... It seemed to me took the responsibility for the child rearing and all of that. And anytime there was an interaction with my dad, it was mostly sort of in passing or, you know, it was almost like, oh, yeah, he's got to get back to work. So we can't take up much of his time. And so I'm not going to stop to say that he never spent time with us, but it was few and far between, if I remember right, that we had any really significant interactions that didn't just feel like it was sort of like, of taken away from his time at work um now i didn't find this out until later when my parents uh got divorced and they started their divorce process in about i think 2018 that uh shortly after they got married my mom had discovered some pornography in the house and my dad had been been using that and uh my mom was completely unwilling to forgive him held it against him uh thought that He was the worst person in the world and decided to basically take 100% control of raising us kids.
[1:47:53] And did she just say pornography or was it illegal or?
[1:47:57] No, nothing illegal. Just, I mean, like I said, we're Christian, we're LDS. And so she, you know, the pornography is looked down on pretty strong.
[1:48:09] No, no, no, I get that. Yeah, I understand that. I just wanted to understand that. Do you have any sense of whether or not your parents had, you know, any kind of normal or healthy or productive sexual relationship themselves?
[1:48:24] Not to my knowledge. In fact, from what I could see in their interactions, just of what I was able to see, they were usually pretty cold to one another. They were never, hardly if ever, affectionate that I could see. and so... Sorry, I had...
[1:48:48] No, it's fine.
[1:48:48] I believe my daughter's name there. But the... So they were not very close. And that's one of the reasons that I wanted to sort of have this call, because I kind of have the same tendencies my dad does, is to sort of retreat into my work and just work out and sort of do my own thing instead of kind of confronting problems and getting things into the open and getting them figured out. Yeah. So yeah, I'm just trying to do a 180 from my dad.
[1:49:24] And how were you disciplined when you were growing up?
[1:49:29] It was often very... I'm going to talk, sweetie. Hi, I have to talk to this nice man. You want to listen? Oh, okay. You can go play. um so I don't remember, it was often very verbal it was always, go to time out um I was spanked, not very often but I remember it happening I remember having my mouth washed out with soap um on a couple of occasions when I was very very little um, And again, it almost sort of worked to my benefit because with my parents being sort of distant the way that they were, they often kind of let us kids to our own devices. Especially with me having a twin brother, we would kind of just go off and do our own thing instead of have to sit there and get rigorously disciplined by either of our parents.
[1:50:37] Okay. And what has changed the most over the course of your marriage? I mean, of course, we've talked about the physical side, but what else has changed for you the most?
[1:50:52] That's a good question. Would you say, like in my attitudes, in my worldview, in my...
[1:51:06] No, no, just in terms of what's changed in your relationship.
[1:51:10] Oh, between my wife and I? It's hard to say. I mean, we still enjoy doing the same things together. We can't do as much of it as we like to or as we did before. But I don't know. We've grown a little bit more distant because of, I mean, my, I don't really care for sort of the mainstream shows that she watches and she doesn't really care for the, you know, the, for lack of a better term, the philosophical content that I like to consume. I'm really sort of anti-mainstream consumerist media. And so I kind of, I try to stay away from that as much as I can. Let me put my son over with my wife real quick. So I don't know if that answered the question very well or not.
[1:52:08] And when did your sex life collapse?
[1:52:14] It was significantly after the twins were born. I don't remember much leading up to that. When we got married, it was fairly frequent. but I mean it was definitely how frequent, How often would you say after we got married? I would say, I don't know, on average, once or twice a week for the first maybe two years.
[1:52:43] And was that satisfying to you or was that sufficient for you?
[1:52:49] Well, as a man, I mean, I'll take it any time I can get it. I mean, I'm one of those guys where every day would be great. But I understand that's not, I don't know, reasonable to expect, right?
[1:53:03] So, no?
[1:53:06] Yeah, short answer, I guess, would be no.
[1:53:08] Okay. And what is your guys' understanding of the philosophy of marital sex?
[1:53:16] That's one of the reasons that I wanted to have the call. Because, I mean, obviously, it's for procreation, it's for enjoyment.
[1:53:23] It's for bonding.
[1:53:25] Correct.
[1:53:26] I mean, you have three kids, right? And yet, you know, you'll have sex thousands of times over the course of your marriage. So it's for paraponting.
[1:53:35] Correct. And I've kind of had an understanding of that. And I guess I just wasn't insistent that my wife, I don't know whether she understands that super well or not.
[1:53:50] Well, okay. So the theme is helplessness, right? I assume that you had some degree of helplessness as a child, right?
[1:54:00] Yeah.
[1:54:01] Okay. Your wife certainly had no control over an insane environment, right? So she's completely helpless, right?
[1:54:06] Right.
[1:54:08] So the kids are making your wife feel helpless, and now your wife is making you feel helpless because she feels the kids are putting her in an impossible situation, and now you're in an impossible situation. Would you like me to tell you your impossible situation?
[1:54:24] Yes, I would.
[1:54:26] Well, you respect your wife's thoughts and feelings, you want to have sex, she doesn't want to have sex, so you're in an impossible situation. because obviously you don't want to pressure her to have sex because you're a nice guy.
[1:54:38] Right.
[1:54:39] And so your respect for your wife turns you into a eunuch when your respect for your wife should turn you guys into high-octane sexual animals, so to speak, right?
[1:54:48] Right.
[1:54:48] So your love for your wife is castrating.
[1:54:52] I see.
[1:54:53] Does that make sense?
[1:54:54] It does. And I'd kind of gotten to the point where I started to resent her a little bit because...
[1:55:02] A little bit? What do you mean? Well, come on. Are we going to be honest with each other or not? It's incredibly frustrating and enraging for men.
[1:55:09] You're right. You're right. And I, because I, I'm pretty physically conscious and very health conscious. And I try to be, and I, I like to work out. I like to maintain my figure and I'm, I'm not, I'm only five, seven.
[1:55:21] Don't refer to it as your figure. That's, that's job number one.
[1:55:25] Okay.
[1:55:26] Figure is a female term. But anyway, it doesn't really matter. Go on.
[1:55:29] Okay. Fair enough.
[1:55:29] Okay. So, yeah. So you, you stay healthy. You stay at a healthy weight. You're a young, red-blooded man, and you want to have sex, right?
[1:55:36] Right. And I was trying to do my best to stay looking good for my wife. And I understand that she's got three kids over three years. It's not reasonable to expect the same.
[1:55:48] Well, no. So when women say I'm stressed, well, what's a great way to relieve stress?
[1:55:59] Is my wife in earshot? I don't know if I can say.
[1:56:01] No, I mean, a great way to relieve stress is to have sex.
[1:56:04] Right. Right? Right. Correct.
[1:56:07] So the idea that stress is some sort of impediment to having sex is not, it's not causal.
[1:56:15] Right.
[1:56:19] Right. The opposite of sex is usually resentment, not stress.
[1:56:24] Mm-hmm. I understand.
[1:56:26] Okay. So.
[1:56:31] You are the primary breadwinner or the sole breadwinner?
[1:56:34] Sole breadwinner.
[1:56:35] Okay, sole breadwinner. Are there times when you don't feel like going to work?
[1:56:39] Of course.
[1:56:40] Right. Now, if you were to say to your wife, ah, you know what, I'm just not feeling it. I'm not, I'm not feeling close enough for us to go to work, for me to go to work. What would you say?
[1:56:55] Well, that's, that's foolish. You got to go to work. It's, you have to do it.
[1:56:58] No, no, I don't. Let's role play this, right? Say, no, I'm, I'm just, I'm not feeling it. I'm just, I'm not feeling close enough. I'm not feeling happy enough. I'm, I'm a little stressed. I'm actually quite stressed. So, uh, I got, I got to just stay home because work just makes me more stressed.
[1:57:12] Well, you don't get to use that as an excuse. This is your, your obligation is to go to work. You're the only person bringing money in. You have to go to work.
[1:57:20] No, but I don't feel like it.
[1:57:23] That's not a good enough excuse. You can't use that.
[1:57:27] Well, I'm sorry, honey. I'm just, I'm learning from you. I'm trying to follow your marital advice, right? Like I have told you, you can't have a job and we've got kids, right? I mean, I haven't ordered you to not have a job, but you can only get money through me, right?
[1:57:45] Right.
[1:57:46] And so if I don't give you money, you have no money, right?
[1:57:51] Right.
[1:57:52] I have a monopoly on providing you and the kids money, right?
[1:57:57] Right.
[1:57:58] So what's another monopoly that we have in the marriage?
[1:58:02] Sex.
[1:58:03] Right. Now, you say that you don't feel like it, and that's fine. Obviously, the last thing I'd ever want to do is pressure you into anything you don't want to do, right? Right. So, if you don't feel like doing something, even though you have a monopoly, you just don't have to do it. You don't have to figure it out. You don't have to sort it out. You don't have to talk it through. You don't have to find a way to reconnect. You just don't do what you don't feel like doing. I mean, honestly, I know this sounds sarcastic. I'm not. I'm like, you've taught me a valuable lesson. Which is, doesn't matter if you have a monopoly or not, if you don't feel like doing something, you don't have to work it out or sort it out or anything like that, right? You just have to repeatedly not do it. I mean, do I have that right? Again, I'm really not trying to be sarcastic. I want to be fair in what I've learned. Do I have that about right?
[1:59:01] Yeah, I think you have that right. And just to sort of role play, I guess, what I believe my wife would say would be that Well, sex is sort of an ancillary benefit to marriage.
[1:59:15] Oh, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, not even close to true. That's not even close to true. Sex is what defines marriage. Marriage is for sexual behavior and the management and control of sexual behavior and the children that it produces. Because that's the one thing I can't go outside of the marriage for. Right? If sex doesn't define the marriage, then clearly we could just go have sex with other people because it doesn't define a marriage. Of course it does. Of course it does. Can I have a friendship outside of marriage? I can. Can I have a sports partner outside of marriage?
[1:59:50] Yes, I can. Can I have golf buddies? Yes, I can. Can I have close chats with friends outside of marriage? Yes, I can. What's the one thing I can't do outside of marriage?
[2:00:01] Sex.
[2:00:02] Right. Which I respect and agree with.
[2:00:05] Right.
[2:00:06] So that's the one thing. I mean, you could theoretically get a job outside the marriage. It would not be considered cheating, right? But I can't, and you can't, we can't have sex outside of the marriage. That's the ultimate betrayal, the ultimate cheat. Why? Because that's the essence of marriage.
[2:00:30] So I totally understand, and I totally agree with what you're saying.
[2:00:33] She would say that sex is much more of an emotional commitment than work.
[2:00:39] Correct.
[2:00:40] Right? Yeah. And to which I would say, I won't tell you how you experience sex, but you can't tell me how I experience work. Work for me is very passionate, very powerful, very intimate. Maybe it's not for you, but it is for me. Going to work for my family is a very passionate and powerful thing. right right but you've taught me that if you don't feel like doing something, you don't have to do it and i i resisted that for a long time but i think i mean i think you're right, now of course you would say well no you have to go to work that's unacceptable right, right so if i have a monopoly i have to figure out a way to deliver on that monopoly right, i mean if i'd have said to you before we got married listen honey i want you to stay home and i want you to have a whole whack load of kids i'm going to be the sole provider but anytime i don't feel like going to work i just won't go, Would you have married me and have kids with me?
[2:01:50] No, that would not have happened.
[2:01:52] Right. So in the same way, if you'd have said to me, listen, the way that I view sexuality in the marital contract is if I just don't feel like it for whatever time period, I don't have to sort it out. I don't have to work it out. I can just not have sex. And I will just not have sex whenever I don't feel like it, month after month, year after year.
[2:02:15] So I...
[2:02:16] Hang on. Hang on, would that have been an acceptable marriage proposition for you?
[2:02:21] No, no.
[2:02:22] Right. So in general, the idea is that if you're going to have a monopoly, you have a responsibility. Now, of course, nobody should ever have sex where they don't want to. I get all of that. I understand all of that. And nobody's saying anybody should do anything that's going against their foundational feelings. But you do have a responsibility to work it out. Like if you have a job you hate, you just have to find a better job. right? So if there's a problem in the sex life, the solution is not abstinence. It can't be. There has to be some other solution, whether it's massage therapy, whether it's talk therapy, whether it's honest conversations, whether it's whatever, right? But the solution can't just be not having sex, because that's not the marital contract. That's not the deal. That's not what men and women sign up for any more than it is for you to say hey I really appreciate you having these three kids but I don't feel like working anymore. When are you going to start working again? I don't know. What's the longest time you guys have had for a dry spell?
[2:03:34] Six or seven months I think.
[2:03:37] Right. Right.
[2:03:42] So what would the response be if my wife were to say, and she hasn't, but hypothetically, if I said, okay, well, I don't want to go to work. Okay, if you don't go to work, there's no money and we starve and we lose everything. But if I don't have sex with you, then the downside is that we don't have sex and there's that lack of physical closeness.
[2:04:11] Right and so uh then what i would say as a man is i would say well that means you don't love me because if you love me you want to have sex with me and that means you don't love me that means the marriage is a sham i'm going to lose my motivation to go to work anyway and the marriage is going to fall apart isn't that worse than me not having a job for a while.
[2:04:30] Right and that's that's something that's sort of been hard for me is because i i don't i never had a like a an official girlfriend a real girlfriend until i think i was uh until her in fact um when i when i met her she was 27 and i'd always been very insecure um and very not happy with sort of who i was and i i thought that the fact that i really didn't have any relationships was because of who i was and so that's that's always sort of been in the back of my mind that i'm getting i'm experiencing some rejection now because of who i am and and.
[2:05:05] The who you are is what what part of of who you are do you feel is reject worthy so to speak.
[2:05:10] Oh that i that i'm not tall enough or that in high school i was always overweight and so i i've i've lost quite a bit of the weight but oh.
[2:05:21] Good for you.
[2:05:21] Like it's like even though even though i've lost the weight i i it's like i can't, So I went, for example, I went on a mission for my church, and I was pretty heavy when I left. And about a month or two before I was going to get back, I was talking to one of the guys I was with. And I was like, yeah, well, you know, I have a girlfriend. I was kind of fat and just overweight. And he's like, are you kidding me? Look at yourself. And I did. And I was like super thin. I mean, unbelievably thin. But I couldn't. It's like my mind wouldn't let me believe that I had lost the weight. Do you know what I mean?
[2:06:00] Well, how long were you overweight for?
[2:06:03] Probably, let's see. Probably from the ages of 14 to 20.
[2:06:15] Right. And did your parents ever try to get you help with your weight issues?
[2:06:19] No, no.
[2:06:20] Did they ever talk about it and say, this is not ideal?
[2:06:24] No. In fact, I often joke with my brother that when we would go to a fast food restaurant, one of my mom's things was, you can get anything you want, whatever you want, as long as it's from the dollar menu.
[2:06:39] It's like the worst post-industrial crap, right?
[2:06:42] Yeah, absolutely. And I'm still kind of struggling with sort of the fast food addiction still. That was the meme of us, you know? Okay.
[2:06:52] And so, I'm so sorry. Just remind me of the genders of your kids again.
[2:06:56] So we have a three-year-old girl and then two one-year-old boy-girl twins.
[2:07:01] Okay, got it. And I was like, earlier, I was like, do they have a boy? But I was talking about the role-playing. Okay.
[2:07:05] Yeah.
[2:07:05] All right. So your wife feels unattractive because she's had three kids in a couple of years, right?
[2:07:13] Yes.
[2:07:14] You feel unattractive because how long ago were you 20?
[2:07:19] 13 years now.
[2:07:20] Okay, snap out of it, bro.
[2:07:22] Yeah.
[2:07:22] Come on, man. The time since you were fat can grow a fucking beard.
[2:07:30] Yeah. So after I got back from the mission, I was in good shape for maybe a year after that. And then I started getting back into my old habits, kind of eating poorly. I didn't work out. I didn't exercise. And then I was even bigger than I had been for the next probably five or six years. And then ironically...
[2:07:53] Oh, sorry. When was the last time you were overweight?
[2:07:56] Oh, sorry. I should have mentioned that there was sort of a lapse. It was... Sort of a lapse? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, so I think 26 or 27. So five years ago.
[2:08:10] Okay. And what was your worst 5'7 and how much were you weighing? Yeah.
[2:08:15] 5.7, I was, I think I was pushing 200. I don't think I ever broke 200, but 190, 195. Okay.
[2:08:22] Yeah, not like morbidly obese, but.
[2:08:24] No, big enough that it had an effect on my psyche, my ability to do stuff.
[2:08:28] Right, right, for sure. For sure. Okay.
[2:08:31] In fact, I was listening to your show when you were still on YouTube, when I was working graveyards for my dad that started to cause me self-reflection, and I just, you know, decided to start doing the things I had to do to lose weight.
[2:08:43] Oh, good for you. Good for you.
[2:08:44] How.
[2:08:45] Was the journey as a whole.
[2:08:46] Oh honestly it was it was very easy um as long as i had a little bit of self-discipline because i just had to stop eating garbage it's.
[2:08:54] Not much it's just saying no to yourself like five times a day it's not like teeth and drink the whole.
[2:08:59] Day it really is it really is and a lot of that was the age that i was my metabolism is still pretty high at that age and so as long as i made sure to not eat garbage every single night um and i started doing a consistent exercise routine, and I started to build muscle and lose fat. And so it was great. It was very quick. It was very rewarding. Like I said, it took me about probably four or five months, and then I started to really lose the weight.
[2:09:27] And what did you get down to?
[2:09:30] Probably 145, 150.
[2:09:32] Oh, good for you. That's great. That's like 25% of your body weight. That's good.
[2:09:36] Yeah. Yeah, I had a lot of very little muscle and a lot of fat.
[2:09:40] Right. okay and how long have you been a dead healthy weight for.
[2:09:46] Um i've i've gained a little bit of it back just with the past year i've been working quite a bit and uh taking care of the family so working out has kind of been put on the back burner but i'm still i'm still in fairly good shape um so now it's been it's been probably five years i would say that i've been at this weight roughly.
[2:10:08] And how tentative are you in your approach for sexual activity with your wife?
[2:10:15] Well, over the past year, it's been very, very seldom that I've tried to initiate anything. Like if we're just sitting there watching a show on the couch, I would kind of try to get close to her, put my arm around her, try to stroke her arm or something, and she was very quick to pull away. And like I said in my message, my email, that's one of the ways we really connected before we got married is we were very, you know, like we said on the couch and it's, you know.
[2:10:48] Yeah, cuddle time. Yeah.
[2:10:49] So forth, exactly. So to have that sort of 180, it's been kind of brutal. So over the past year, I would basically every time I would try to initiate, it's like she would recoil at worst or just say no thank you at best. Right. Right.
[2:11:08] And she'd mentioned something about um is there some sort of thing where if you do more chores she might have sex with.
[2:11:15] You um she hasn't said any of that explicitly although i've i've tried that um kind of trying to step up doing doing dishes and one of the things that i haven't been very good at is like just doing tasks of my own accord that i know need done like the the playroom will be a mess or dishes will obviously need done or the.
[2:11:37] Sorry but she's a stay-at-home mom right yeah does she do any of your work no i mean no it can happen sometimes right i don't know if you had a bunch of reports to read she might you might bring them home she might read them for you and summarize them for you or whatever right so she doesn't do your job right right you do 100 of your job right okay and obviously i'm not saying don't help out right but the idea that you have a job at work and also jobs at home doesn't seem quite right in terms of an absolute expectation i'm not talking about you know in general if i if i see something around the house oh this could go with the dishwasher i'll carry it over to the dishwasher. Like, I mean, I'll help out for sure. I'll help out. But the idea that I have a shift at home as well as a shift at work doesn't tend to go well in most marriages.
[2:12:42] Right. And I've tried to be very helpful, as helpful and understanding as I can be considering our circumstances. Oh, that's right, sweetie. But yeah, you're right. You're totally right.
[2:13:04] Now, how much do you guys process that the quality of your parenting is intimately bound up with the quality of your marriage?
[2:13:17] I don't know I would have to ask my wife I believe that it has a lot to do with it because when I saw my parents interact it was like there was never any physical or emotional closeness probably.
[2:13:30] Why he ended up at the pornography stash right I mean.
[2:13:35] Right and whether which one preceded the other I don't know it's likely that the Well.
[2:13:41] No, she didn't know about the pornography stash, right?
[2:13:44] Right.
[2:13:45] So I would imagine that it was the coldness, right, first. Okay, so when you guys are not physically close or connected or having a decent, happy, regular sex life or anything like that, that has an impact on the quality of your marriage significantly, which has an impact on your children's perception of male-female relationships, of the happiness of marriage, and so on. I mean, how you treat your wife in front of your kids and how she treats you is the biggest advertisement for or against marriage that can be conceived of.
[2:14:25] Right.
[2:14:26] If your kids don't grow up wanting what you and your wife have, The whole reason for having kids is to continue the line. Obviously, you take pleasure in your kids' company and all of that, but would you bother having kids if you knew all of your kids would be completely infertile? Well, probably not, right?
[2:14:45] Right.
[2:14:47] So having kids and then saying sort of implicitly, marriage is no fun. I see. It's not good, right?
[2:14:58] That makes sense.
[2:15:00] So it kind of has to be solved.
[2:15:04] Right. And that's why I, it's not that I'm like expecting sex morning, noon, and night. I tried to do...
[2:15:15] No, no, I know that. You don't need to tell me. Yeah.
[2:15:17] Right, right.
[2:15:18] You're a middle, you're an Aristotelian mean guy. You listen to this show. So I get you're not looking for like, you know, thrice a day with three children, right? I mean, in the house, right? That's not right. So I get all of that. That's understood. but you just want some sort of semi-regular at least reciprocity of affection or something like that, right?
[2:15:38] That's part of why I wanted to do the qual is because I could tell that there's things limiting her willingness to be physically affectionate with me.
[2:15:49] Okay, but you... Is your wife in the room? It doesn't matter if she is. I'm just curious.
[2:15:54] Yeah, she's in earshot, I think, right?
[2:15:57] Earshot of me or just you?
[2:16:00] Both of us.
[2:16:00] Okay, good. So what do women respond to in men the most?
[2:16:14] Emotionality affection, right?
[2:16:15] Absolutely not. No, that's what they have girlfriends for.
[2:16:28] I would say masculinity, but that doesn't seem to have really worked for me. I don't know.
[2:16:33] Well, no, hang on. Well, I mean, by definition, femininity is designed to respond to masculinity, right? That's why your wife is straight, not gay, right?
[2:16:41] Right.
[2:16:41] Okay. So what is masculinity for you?
[2:16:46] Well, it's a tool to help you get a relationship.
[2:16:49] No, no, but I mean, what is it? I mean, how does it manifest?
[2:16:54] Physical closeness.
[2:16:57] A dog could be physically close. What are you talking about? A chair could be physically close. Let's be a little bit more specific.
[2:17:03] Okay. Sex, sexuality.
[2:17:06] Nope. That's what we're asking. What does a woman respond to? You can't say sexuality because sexuality is the response.
[2:17:14] Would it be just provision of resources?
[2:17:17] Well, the government can do that Winning the lottery can do that Yeah.
[2:17:23] I'll stop stabbing in the dark again, Well.
[2:17:28] Protection Right Your wife feels stressed because she's unprotected, And when women feel unprotected, they don't feel much sexual desire.
[2:17:47] Yeah, that's interesting.
[2:17:49] Okay, tell me about the shows she watches and tell me about the men in those shows.
[2:17:55] So she likes sort of those, what's a good example, like Criminal Minds, that sort of thing. she's now watching uh what are the what are the names city and one nine nine one one sort of the cop shows like um yeah.
[2:18:18] Okay are the cops in those shows are they doing dishes and talking about their feelings no no so what is she responding to what is it in the cops that she is responding to And I'm not talking about romantically, but what does she find compelling?
[2:18:37] Well, they're tackling situations.
[2:18:41] Yeah, they protect.
[2:18:42] Right, right.
[2:18:44] Right, so in just about every female story, there's a situation where the woman is in danger and the man steps up to protect her.
[2:18:53] Right. Right.
[2:18:56] So this is why earlier I asked about why you weren't protecting your family.
[2:19:03] I see. I see.
[2:19:07] When a woman feels protected and safe and secure, then generally she feels more sexual.
[2:19:25] So
[2:19:28] Who in your environment is negative to your family I think we covered her mother who else if anyone.
[2:19:39] I don't think there would be anything anybody else I don't, yeah nobody everybody else that we have regular contact with is very supportive. They're good people. I don't know. No one or nothing comes to mind.
[2:20:06] What does your wife say?
[2:20:09] Did you hear any of that, sweetie? Are there any other people or influences in our lives right now that would cause you to feel unsafe or unprotected? no nothing from my wife.
[2:20:26] Okay uh what about her grandparents.
[2:20:31] They they are good people they're very good people and like she said they're.
[2:20:35] Okay i'm gonna i'm gonna take a swing at that one.
[2:20:37] Okay i i know where you're gonna go yeah yeah.
[2:20:40] Okay no tell me i i want to be efficient because we've talked for a long time so right what am i gonna say they.
[2:20:47] Raised my wife's mother and she as a result of their parenting somehow became the person she is and didn't keep them from interacting with my wife.
[2:20:57] Well i'm not just talking about the past though right have have your have uh has your wife's grandparents ever said listen we got to sit down with you and your mother and work some of this stuff out especially now that she's been off drugs for a while because that was a really terrible and messy childhood and we don't want to have it have any effects on our great-grandkids?
[2:21:19] No.
[2:21:22] Okay. Have they said to your wife, what is it like being in touch with the woman who destroyed your childhood? Is that healthy? Is that good for you? Is that right for you? Is that a good thing?
[2:21:36] No, to my knowledge, I've never said anything like that.
[2:21:38] Okay. Have they said or questioned about how do you feel, around your mother and your kids no okay have they has your wife confided in her grandparents the difficulties that she's having as a mother.
[2:21:59] No.
[2:22:00] This is all nonsense. It's not a relationship. It's a dissociation. Are they helpful? Absolutely, sure. Are they good with your kids? Okay. But then if they're good with your kids, the question is how did they raise her mom? And why aren't they intervening to make sure that your wife is okay?
[2:22:30] Right i'm sure they they don't understand the kinds of sort of generational trauma that can be inflicted and i'm sure i think i suspect that their excuse would be that well we raised you you know we we took you in and we sort of took care of you and you weren't well but that's not true though that's.
[2:22:47] Just a lie they didn't raise her i mean they helped raise her for sure but the mother had primary custody for years.
[2:22:55] When did they get custody, sweetie? When you were five? She was five She was five when she went to live with her grandparents Yeah.
[2:23:01] But that doesn't mean that she had no contact with her mother after that Alright, that's true, And I think I remember her saying that she was bouncing back and forth between her grandparents and her mother That's true, that's correct So, the idea that the mother did not raise her is just not true She didn't raise her exclusively, but, right, so why haven't you brought all of this stuff up with her family, and say look there's a big mess here that you know we all need to talk about, I mean you've listened to my show you've heard me do it I'm not saying you gotta do what I do everyone has their own way of doing it but why haven't you right, see you want sex without being a protector not gonna happen bro I see, you want sex without being strong and assertive yeah you want to comply and conform with everyone around you and then have the steadfast lust of your lovely wife, you want to self erase and nothing's left but the penis.
[2:24:12] Yeah, I guess my question something that I've asked myself every time you mention to callers that there's this, unaddressed trauma with mothers is if things seem okay now, but obviously there's some significant subconscious trauma.
[2:24:35] Things seem okay now? What are you talking about?
[2:24:38] Well, so like if, for example.
[2:24:39] Your wife is swearing at your children. That's an emergency. That's a catastrophe.
[2:24:46] So is there significant, I don't know, I guess I'm trying to figure out the question to ask because there's a lot of subconscious just, trauma that manifests itself in these kinds of responses, but I don't know, maybe cause I, I've been very distant with my mom and I, I don't want to, I don't want to talk to her. I don't want to deal with the problems that we've had in the past. Um, but for example, I, so I was, I like my dad, right. When I was, uh, 15 or 16, I started using pornography. Um, and, uh, when my mom found out she i'll never forget what she said to me she said uh just like your dad you'll never be able to have a normal relationship with a girl you know that right and that's what she said to me and i i heard that when i was 16 and i i kept believing it for the next 10 years, sure um and so i that's.
[2:25:54] That's a thoroughly evil thing to say to a child of course right.
[2:25:58] Totally which is that's that's the reason why she's not in my life right now i refuse to to talk to her to have my children talk to her because if she's going to use those sorts of manipulative languages because of trauma that she had in the past that's just no no no no what do you mean because.
[2:26:13] Of trauma she had in the past.
[2:26:14] Well just just because of no no no no don't.
[2:26:19] Give me these excuses.
[2:26:21] Oh, I'm the last person to make an excuse for my mom. Maybe I worded it.
[2:26:24] You just made an excuse for her.
[2:26:26] I worded it incorrectly. I know that she was totally out of line in acting the way that she did with my dad and reacting in the way that she raised us children. There's no way that she's going to be involved with my family.
[2:26:42] And what's the relationship with your dad?
[2:26:44] So it's fairly close. I still do work for him regularly. But kind of like when I was a kid, we don't really have an emotional connection at all. It's more practical. Like, I'll work for him.
[2:27:00] And sorry, and how old are you?
[2:27:03] About 33.
[2:27:04] And why are you still working for your dad?
[2:27:06] Oh, I work for him on the side.
[2:27:08] On the side. Okay. Why are you still working for your dad?
[2:27:12] Well, I no longer live in the same state as him, so I don't work for him regularly. but he runs his own machine shop and so it's a good in my opinion it's nice to be able to help out his business Have you ever told.
[2:27:27] Him what his wife said to you when you were 16?
[2:27:32] Yes.
[2:27:33] And what does he say?
[2:27:36] Well, he was appalled.
[2:27:40] Sorry, he was what?
[2:27:41] He was appalled. He didn't care for it at all. He has the same opinion of my mom as I do.
[2:27:51] No, but he chose her. You didn't.
[2:27:53] Correct.
[2:27:54] He chose to date, get engaged, get married, to have children and keep those children around his wife year after year. You didn't choose any of that.
[2:28:02] Yeah.
[2:28:03] Don't equate you and your dad.
[2:28:05] Correct. And I've thought about that quite a bit because they had marital problems well before I was even conscious, pretty much.
[2:28:14] Okay. Has he ever apologized to you for not choosing the best mother for his children?
[2:28:18] No. No, he's not.
[2:28:20] Okay. Has he ever taken any ownership for the negative things that happened? And listen, I've not been a perfect dad. I've made mistakes. I've been short-tempered, and I've owned that, and I apologize. So this is not like putting parents through some struggle session where they have to say they were the worst people in the world. But every relationship has its hiccups and issues, and we need to listen and apologize and make amends and restitution as we move forward. What has he apologized for and made amends and restitution for in his multi-decade relationship with you?
[2:28:52] He is not. He's just kind of let things happen.
[2:28:58] Okay, so you are You are letting him be the alpha And you are letting him Determine, The entire relationship At the self-erasure of you Because you've listened to me For nine damn years And you haven't said one thing Real to your dad, Which means that your wife looks at you and your dad, and she sees you as a beta. Because he defines the relationship, and you're too nervous and scared. And I sympathize. I understand. I'm not condemning you for any of this.
[2:29:37] Right.
[2:29:37] Right? But you're too nervous and scared to have a real conversation with your dad, and to be assertive with your father. You let him define the entire relationship, and then you want your wife to desire you.
[2:29:50] Hmm.
[2:29:52] And you are sinning, my friend, because lying by omission is the worst form of bearing false witness. There are things you need to say to your dad. Every time you don't say them to him, you're lying.
[2:30:12] That's true.
[2:30:15] And listen, I mean, you could say these things or not say them, but your wife's ovaries see everything.
[2:30:21] Yeah.
[2:30:24] And if you are significantly subordinate to your dad when you're 32 years old, that's not going to be very positive to your wife's desire level.
[2:30:40] I understand.
[2:30:42] Women respond to masculinity, which is assertiveness, honesty, directness.
[2:30:49] Oh, yeah. Mm.
[2:30:53] Leave it to the women to be indirect and, like, I get it, that's fine, right? But we men, we have to be honest and direct, and if we think something is wrong, we need to say something, and we have to be willing to correct others and be corrected ourselves. And the only reason you wouldn't be honest with your father is you're afraid of him.
[2:31:11] Yeah, I think that's true.
[2:31:13] And the only reason that you wouldn't sit down with your wife's family and say, there's a big mess here that nobody's talking about, I'm really sick and tired of all this gaslighting and ignoring the elephant in the room. We've got to discuss this stuff. The only reason you wouldn't do that is out of fear. And again, I sympathize. I really do. You know, when I was sitting down to talk to my parents, it was nerve-wracking. I'm not going to lie, right? I'm not going to pretend that I was immune from any of that. So I understand the fear. I really do. And I'm not blaming you for having it at all. And I completely sympathize with it. But if you choose to let it dominate your life, what are you signaling to your kids? Oh, well, see, the bad people get away with whatever they want, and the good people just shut their mouths and nod.
[2:31:58] I see.
[2:31:59] What do you want out of your relationship with your father? I assume it's some level of honesty and connection.
[2:32:08] Yeah, yeah, that would be nice.
[2:32:10] So you've got to earn that by being honest and direct. and overcoming the fears. right and you also you know fighting sin is a complicated business and it doesn't it's not served by pretending people have not sinned do you know what i mean.
[2:32:35] I do yeah.
[2:32:36] I mean jesus didn't come down to say oh you're all doing great don't change a thing he didn't come down to talk about the weather he didn't come down to talk business he came down to confront sin right and if your father as is certainly the case with your wife's mother but if your father sinned as we all do, who is calling him out on his sins who is giving him the chance you are withholding from your father the chance for redemption by hiding from him the sins he has done it's very cruel and very passive-aggressive, by the way, and very not masculine.
[2:33:19] That's true. That's true.
[2:33:22] I'm not saying you've got to be like Jesus at the temple with the whips, but I am saying that if you believe that thou shalt not bear false witness, then you've got to stop lying to people about... And there's things I'm sure that you would say that are positive about what your father has done as well, and you wouldn't want to withhold that from him either. But if the whole purpose of a moral man is to just let people who've done wrong float along, blind to their sin, not say anything to anyone out of fear, that's a very subordinate, enslaved position.
[2:33:58] Right.
[2:33:59] And women don't bang slaves.
[2:34:03] Right. Yeah.
[2:34:07] I mean, you're supposed to be the head of the household, right?
[2:34:10] Right.
[2:34:11] How are you doing that?
[2:34:14] Yeah, not in ways that count.
[2:34:17] Right, and because you've been listening for nine years, you have zero excuses. That's the annoying thing, right?
[2:34:23] Correct. And I will admit, I started listening because of your political content.
[2:34:29] Still here, though. Doesn't count. Still here.
[2:34:31] Right, right, right. And I'm not making an excuse, and I'm sort of repenting for this. I stopped listening when you stopped producing political content, and then I kind of had an awakening myself. and now I think political content is garbage and I love the philosophy so that's all I'm here for now.
[2:34:45] Well, you know, it's funny because everyone talks about the First Amendment and hate speech and censorship and all that kind of stuff but my God, man, you've listened to so many of these calls over the years. How many people are free to speak their minds in their relationships?
[2:34:57] Right.
[2:34:57] I mean, the real censorship is fear of disapproval and it's everywhere. People are deplatformed within their own families. They're not allowed to speak the truth. they won't allow themselves to speak the truth. They lie and bow and scrape and avoid and gaslight and prop up delusions. And then they say, well, the government is the enemy of free speech. It's like, how about your own family? Can you speak the truth within your own family? Not really.
[2:35:28] Right, right. See how quickly you get shamed and disowned, right?
[2:35:33] Right. Yeah, work to protect your family. and that means protect them from manipulators from the dishonest from those who push back against silence listen do you want your kids to come to you when they're upset with you and have problems.
[2:35:56] Of course yeah.
[2:35:57] Okay so why would you deny that to your father, unless he's just a jerk who'll punish you for telling the truth in which case what's he doing in your life and around your family, right Right.
[2:36:13] Right. Every, and I don't ever.
[2:36:16] Sorry, last thing I'll say, you cannot let your children see you bow or be disrespected.
[2:36:23] Right.
[2:36:24] And if your children see you around your father and they see you nodding and laughing along with your dad and, right, they'll know something's wrong. And then later when they find out the deficiency in your father's parenting, they will lose all respect for you. It's really tragic. And then where are they going to go? They're going to have to go to the internet or to peers, God help them, for guidance. Right. You must do everything you can to maintain the respect of your children, which means don't lie and don't sin for anyone.
[2:37:07] That's so true. That's so true.
[2:37:14] I mean, did you respect your father when you found out he turned to pornography rather than solving the problems in his marriage?
[2:37:20] Oh, of course not. No.
[2:37:26] Do you respect your father for marrying a woman who's so cruel as to put on this bizarre gypsy curse on you at the age of 15 or 16? Have you looked at some naked pictures?
[2:37:37] Right. No, of course not. No. and I've always I've really always resented my dad for for not, being straightforward with me about the nature of my mom because I it's obvious that he knew very early on how she was and how she tended to act but he, either because of his nature or because of what he how he decided to handle his marriage he just never engaged never never got into yeah.
[2:38:07] He avoided telling the truth.
[2:38:09] Correct.
[2:38:10] And how did that work out for him?
[2:38:12] Not well, obviously.
[2:38:14] Terribly, right?
[2:38:15] Very poorly. Right. so they're they're divorced and now every year on my birthday and christmas i get a text from my mom that i ignore uh and so why is.
[2:38:28] She not blocked.
[2:38:29] Uh i it's a good question what.
[2:38:33] Am i missing here.
[2:38:34] No you're not missing anything i just i i had never gotten around to just just block it oh don't.
[2:38:40] Don't you guess like me bro at the end of three hours i just never got around it's two clicks.
[2:38:46] Yeah that's block.
[2:38:48] Number don't tell me you i never all i've had so big i got three kids i got a job man gotta travel.
[2:38:53] No it's it's it's nothing to do with the time about two seconds yeah yeah i don't know part i guess maybe part of me wants to see i don't know sort of uh oh.
[2:39:04] Maybe the next maybe the next text will be enlightened and wise.
[2:39:08] No and that to be honest that's not what i'm waiting for it's i was i was going to say it's it might have something to do now that i think about it with more of a maybe a sadistic aspect where i want to see her like oh yeah you're gonna try to talk to me but i'm not gonna allow it to happen like i mean her well you know if.
[2:39:25] You still if you still want vengeance then you don't have closure.
[2:39:29] Yeah that's a good point let.
[2:39:32] The lord deal with her.
[2:39:33] Yeah you're a thousand percent right, You're a thousand percent right.
[2:39:39] So, yeah, I mean, I would just say that with regards to, I mean, yeah, have the conversation with your wife, but withholding sex in a marriage will wreck the marriage. I mean, it will. And that's breaking the vows. Because in the vows, it is understood, though obviously it is not stated in the vows. But in the vows, based upon the fact that you are now entering into a covenant of monopoly sexual access, in the vows, it is that sexual access will be provided. Now, of course, if people are sick, I get all that. But in general, that's the default position.
[2:40:26] Right.
[2:40:29] And I think that if you are doing dishes and, in a sense, kind of begging and whining, That's the opposite of the masculine thing. The masculine thing is, listen, we've got to sort this out. This is not an option. This is not a thing. Oh, you want me to have sex when I don't want to? No, I want you to want to have sex. We've got to figure out why you don't. Well, I'm stressed. It's like, no, that's not an answer because there's stress in life and there's nothing in the marriage vow and I don't get to not go to work when I'm stressed. I have my obligations and responsibilities and so on. So this is something we have to sort out. This is not an option. This is not a... I said, look, if I said, you can only cook the food I eat you, and you can't go out, and then I stopped feeding you, what would you do?
[2:41:19] I'd go get food elsewhere.
[2:41:21] No, no, you can't eat out. That's cheating.
[2:41:23] Yeah, right.
[2:41:25] You can't get sex elsewhere, right?
[2:41:28] Right.
[2:41:29] So that is breaking the marriage vows. Withholding sex. is a form, and I don't mean, obviously, if people are ill or whatever, right? But withholding sex is a form of infidelity. Because of betraying the marriage fans.
[2:41:51] Right. And that's, I think, another aspect of lacking masculinity, because I was afraid to say that sort of thing that forcefully, that directly.
[2:42:01] It's not forcefully. I mean, I'm not yelling.
[2:42:04] No, no, it's just very matter-of-fact. Like, look, this is something that has to be done or else our marriage will not work.
[2:42:11] The marriage is based upon the sexual exclusivity.
[2:42:14] Right.
[2:42:16] And no sex will undermine the marriage in the same way that a man who says I'll be the provider and doesn't work undermines the marriage.
[2:42:25] Right.
[2:42:27] And, you know, you're there to help and facilitate and she'll talk about whatever needs to be talked about. But this problem has to get solved. because the end result of a sexless marriage is divorce.
[2:42:42] Right. Right? Yeah, yeah. I saw that firsthand, apparently.
[2:42:47] Yeah, for sure, for sure. So, and all that leads to a divorce is a betrayal of the marriage. I mean, affairs lead to divorces. That's a betrayal of the marriage. And a sexless relationship leads to a divorce, which is the end of the marriage. So it's a betrayal of the marriage.
[2:43:06] Correct yeah that makes sense.
[2:43:08] And and if your wife says no listen i want to retain my right i'm i'm sure she won't right but but if you were to say well i'm i'm i'm just never going to have sex whenever i don't exactly feel like it and i'm never going to work on trying to feel like it more and i'm never going to do this and i'm never going to do that and it's like, well i mean that's a form of fraud and and then then her issue is not with you but with god, right right because she made a vow to god right to love to honor to cherish, and holding no others before you right that that's the sexual exclusivity right, and so if she says well i'm going to put my the hedonism of my the hedonism of my resentment above my vows to god then she needs to talk to a priest or she needs to pray to god because that cannot be the answer. That would be like you saying, well, you know, there's this hot woman at work, so I'm just going to go have sex with her. And she'd be like, but that's appalling. That's cheating. Well, sexlessness is a form of cheating. And it is putting the hedonism of immediate resentment and avoidance, above the vows that are the foundation of the marriage. And the foundation of the marriage is reasonable levels of sexual activity when everyone's healthy.
[2:44:34] I see. Right. Yeah, that makes sense. And I understand my culpability now in not having been direct with her about that and direct with her about, solving her past traumas because I've known that she's had you know a brutal childhood and i i just assumed that it was all sort of in the rear view and never, decided well it's.
[2:45:05] You know it's all in in a sense it's all fun and games till you have three kids under four right.
[2:45:10] Correct that's a thousand percent true and.
[2:45:13] Then i think that she goes right back into this absolute chaos and helplessness and frustration and lack of control that is really triggering.
[2:45:22] Yeah, I think that's true.
[2:45:26] All right. So is that, I know you guys have got your kids up and about. Is that a reasonable place to wind things up?
[2:45:32] I think so. I think so. And I appreciate that they didn't put a great deal. I just, I can't thank you enough.
[2:45:41] Oh, you're absolutely welcome. Listen, I absolutely wish the very best for you guys. You do sound like a great couple, you know? I mean, that's why I made some jokes at the beginning. I wanted to probe the level of remaining good humor, and it certainly seems to be there. So you guys have a lot to offer each other, and you have three beautiful children, and it is very stressful when the kids are unwell after birth and all of that.
[2:46:00] So I really do sympathize with all of that, and I'm sure you guys can get to a wonderful place. But yeah, I think you need to draw that big fire remote around your family, and the nun shall pass who are dysfunctional, and just be direct and honest with the people around you. It'll just work wonders.
[2:46:15] That's wonderful. That's wonderful advice. Look, I can't thank you enough. I really appreciate it. So my wife is an educator. Hopefully one day we'll get to have a conversation about homeschooling. I'm kind of beating that drum right now.
[2:46:29] No, that sounds great.
[2:46:30] My wife's not quite there, but.
[2:46:33] Oh, the way to get your wife there is to look up homeschooling groups in your environment and just go meet up with some people. And I'm sure she'll love them.
[2:46:43] Very cool. Very cool.
[2:46:44] All right, brother. Keep me posted about how things are going. I really do appreciate the convo tonight.
[2:46:48] I will. Thank you so much, Seth.
[2:46:50] Bye-bye.
[2:46:51] Thank you, Mike.
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