0:41 - Confronting the Past
4:49 - Preparing for Confrontation
6:23 - The Weight of Expectations
9:11 - Understanding the Abuse
10:40 - The Burden of Silence
12:50 - Seeking Closure
15:57 - The Cost of Confrontation
20:00 - Reflecting on the Past
31:25 - Power Dynamics
34:46 - The Danger of Confrontation
37:13 - Embracing Authenticity
47:29 - The Importance of Self-Protection
In this episode, we engage in a deep and enlightening conversation with a listener grappling with complex family dynamics, particularly the need for confrontation with his parents regarding past trauma. The caller, reflecting on his upbringing, shares his struggles with dissociation and the emotional impact of having parents who have contributed to his challenges. Throughout our discussion, we explore the importance of acknowledging one's feelings while also examining the moral implications of confronting parents who have caused significant harm.
As the conversation unfolds, the caller expresses a desire to eventually confront his parents about the abuse and neglect he experienced as a child. He recounts how his relationship with them has shifted over time, as he finds himself feeling more empowered and detached from their influence. We discuss the support he receives from his therapist and the concept of parts work and EMDR to help manage his anxiety when thinking about such confrontations. The caller outlines a plan to write down his grievances to address them with his parents, seeking closure for himself.
We delve into the complexities surrounding the confrontation—questioning whether it would genuinely provide the closure he seeks or simply reopen old wounds. The discussion leads to a significant realization: the parents who inflicted harm are unlikely to acknowledge their wrongdoings. Our dialogue navigates through the emotional landscape of feeling a need for validation and understanding from those who have historically abused their power. Throughout these exchanges, I challenge the caller’s assumptions about accountability and the necessity of providing explanations for his decisions to cut ties with his parents.
The caller admits to conflicting emotions, feeling that cutting off contact without explanation might leave his parents in a place of confusion or deceit. However, I emphasize that providing such explanations may inadvertently grant them control over his emotions and narrative. Together, we dissect the notion that closure can come from confronting evildoers, unpacking the reality that communication with his parents may only lead to further manipulation and invalidation.
As we near the end of our discussion, the caller begins to acknowledge the pitfalls of seeking acceptance from those who have historically neglected his safety and well-being. We reflect on the importance of surrounding oneself with people who respect boundaries without the need for constant validation and justification. Throughout this episode, we unravel the intricate ties between trauma, identity, and the importance of self-protection, leaving the caller with valuable insights into navigating his emotional landscape and family ties moving forward.
[0:00] You know, still having my parents in my life, like, it'd be a lot of times, like, I'll be at work, and I haven't spoken to either one of my parents in, like, two weeks, but, like, I'll still dissociate, and, you know, I'll think about them sometimes, and, you know, I'll feel small a little bit, and, like, I know they're not good people, and the harm they've caused me is, it's been pretty bad, and I've been working on it a decent bit and i like i said i have been making progress um i've removed trashy people from my life before and i do plan on confronting my parents at some point um do you have anything you'd like to say so far.
[0:42] Makes sense so far.
[0:45] Yeah because i'm not sure when exactly i know it's going to be at some point this year i'm gonna have a conversation with them um my therapist likes the idea, and as I had said to you in the email, the therapist likes the idea of me talking to you as well. Her recommendation is for us to work together doing parts work and EMDR to the point where I don't have the, the automatic impulse to freeze up or shut down so i can actually have a conversation.
[1:21] Okay sorry did you have more that you wanted to add.
[1:25] I know i'd say that's it so far.
[1:27] Okay and remind me how old you are again.
[1:31] Uh 29 i'll be 30 in july.
[1:34] Ah okay all right and um remind me how how is your life going as a whole i guess since the last time we talked.
[1:40] Um i'd say pretty good um i've moved into my new apartment it's starting to feel a little bit more like home um i was every time i visit my parents um that place just seemed so alien to me uh my career is going fantastic, men's group i'm part of is going well um i'm able to socialize you know decently well too, talk with people talk with women like it's been on an upwards trajectory ever since we last spoke.
[2:16] Great okay and with your parents.
[2:19] Um well it's very surface level stuff um my father and i might talk about investments every once in a while or politics um my mother and i it's just weather really nothing too special um i was just over there at their place yesterday and i took their dog for a walk um and i went with my mother and it bothered me a lot just thinking about it yesterday because while i was walking around i was seeing men my age walking around with i assume their girlfriend and wives and here i am walking around with my mother and yeah it's not good um there have been times i've kind of went a little bit deeper talked about some stuff um in regards to.
[3:19] Our relationship, how they treated me, maybe disagreements with my father. And when I was living with them, it was very different because my father would just freak out and explode. Whereas nowadays, they're very submissive. They used to have the power over me. Now, it seems like they're giving me power over them, if that makes any sense.
[3:50] Oh yeah i mean that's that's just time time passing right you're getting.
[3:53] Stronger and they're not yeah and yeah i i'm not sure when exactly like i said like probably within two or three months i'm guessing i'll have a conversation about what i've been through as a child and reading peaceful parenting has really been helping me a lot with that too because i'm starting to see what my life could have been and who I could be as a father, and comparing that to how they were and how horrible it was, And I think it also helps.
[4:31] Sorry, go ahead.
[4:33] I think it'll help me a lot connect too with what I've been through. Because I can understand what I've been through is really horrible. But I still have a hard time connecting with it emotionally. I'm not even sure what that would look like.
[4:49] Okay, give me the short version of the speech that you would give to your parents.
[5:04] Well i'd start off by having something written like i'd i'd have all my grievances written down from the sexual abuse i faced as a kid to the bullying i received in school for crapping in my pants because of the sexual abuse um the violence i faced from my father the manipulation from my mother. I'd have everything written down and I'd give that to them beforehand and schedule a time to talk to them about that. For me, it'd be a lot easier having it all done beforehand instead of doing it in the moment. then yeah, once I go to talk to them about it, after they've read it, if they even read it, just talk to them to see what happens. I could kind of already guess how it would go. At first, they'd be all sorry and we didn't know or all these excuses like that. And then I'd press them on. It's like, yeah, you absolutely did know stuff that's been happening to me because either one, you did it or two, I told you about it.
[6:24] and on top of that it's kind of your job as parents to know what's happening to your kids.
[6:34] From there, I just keep calmly pressing them on it, not letting them hide any excuses or be like, well, we had bad childhoods, as my mother would often say.
[6:51] Yeah, that means they should know even more about how to protect kids.
[6:55] Yeah, and because of how many times you've said that through Collins, I'll point that out too. If you knew how bad it was, why would you do it to me as well?
[7:10] I expect they'd just go very passive and they wouldn't have much feedback after that.
[7:21] I'd imagine they would if they ever did. I'd say part of the reason why I'm bringing this up is not only because of the harm it did to me and how it pretty much took almost 30 years of my life, but you know i want to make a drastic change if you people aren't on board i don't want you in my life.
[7:43] And I could imagine that would be quite the rippling effect throughout the rest of the family. I have a step-grandfather that lives in, he's worked border patrol and has like a part-time sheriff and other related duties. and i could kind of fear them and other family members you know come into my apartment um, you know demanding like i tuck my tail between my legs and go be obedient to my parents again or you know just sit down and shut up um i could see them showing up at my work um, yeah i had mentioned that in a live stream almost a month ago now i think, and you had loosely mentioned that if they are that volatile it might not be worth confronting them but I kind of feel like I need to have that confrontation as a sort of closure, it doesn't sit right with me to have a conflict with somebody and just remove them from my life without at least talking about it even though I know it's not going to end well does that make sense to you?
[8:55] I'm not sure what you mean by It makes sense. I mean, do I understand what you're saying? Sure. Do I agree? I don't know. I mean, so remind me the circumstances of the sexual abuse.
[9:06] It was my mother's friend's son who started it.
[9:12] He also had a younger brother who was involved. There's a couple of the neighborhood kids that were involved, all boys. um as far as i know they had uh some other women involved uh girls really sorry i misspoke there um and yeah between like my parents their parents like everybody who had kids like it was like we were all just molesting each other and, At some point, there had to be an adult somewhere along the lines of an older cousin. We did have a conversation about this, like, probably like three years ago.
[9:52] Yes, yes. It's coming back to me now. Yeah, I just wanted to make sure I remembered accurately.
[9:57] Yeah, no problem. And, yeah, like, knowing some of the other kids, like, there's this one who's transgender, who's become transgender. and like i could assume that's part of the reason why is the sexual abuse she faced as a kid, my fear that you know being a woman means being preyed upon um like all the other kids that i know of like you know they're addicted to drugs not doing well in life and yeah it's been a big mess.
[10:32] Right okay okay and uh you said that they knew and was that because you told them.
[10:41] Yes um yeah i had wrote a little book as a kid um saying what some of the stuff that i went through, and also they kind of but there's no way they didn't know because you know they'd see us coming out of a closet or in a basement and you know our pants are hanging down a little bit or you know stuff like that so like there's no way they didn't know between all those different signs, like if we were drinking alcohol instead like they'd notice the alcohol on our breath they couldn't not notice stuff like that.
[11:16] Right okay, okay so tell me the theory behind the confrontation and of course i don't know whether you should or shouldn't do it. I just want to make sure I understand your thinking behind it.
[11:31] Yeah, I understand. So my reasoning behind it is I want to have the confrontation out there. Talk to them about it. The words are kind of escaping me, but I want that the confidence and the closure behind talking to them about it. airing my grievances and like, as it probably would lead to them not being part of my life, at least for my own mind, I'd have that. Well, I at least talk to him about it. Um, um, Yeah, the words are escaping me, but I know in the past that I've had friends groups where, well, not friends, associates where I just up and stop talking to them or they stop talking to me. Even at times, members of the FDR community where I just block somebody or don't talk to them. And it never feels right. but I at least want to have the reasonings out in the open as to why this relationship isn't working for me.
[12:51] And, yeah, that's kind of my reason behind it. It's a little...
[12:55] None of that has any moral causality behind it. That's just all feelings. It feels right, doesn't sit well. That's, sorry to hate it, that's why you're dissociating because you don't have any moral reasoning behind it.
[13:10] Gotcha. Okay.
[13:13] So if you go to a restaurant and you don't like the restaurant, are you obligated to give an essay as to why you're not coming back?
[13:22] No, not at all.
[13:23] Right? I mean, if you go see a movie and you don't like the movie, you walk out in 20 minutes, you get your money back. Do you owe anyone an essay as to why you're getting your money back? Right? Return something from Amazon, whatever, right? You just don't need to. Right? So you can terminate relationships without the need for an essay as to why, right?
[13:46] Yeah.
[13:48] Now, all the other relationships you talked about, they were voluntary. They were chosen. Right? Your relationship with your parents was not chosen. It was just inflicted on you. circumstances. I mean, it's inflicted on everyone. My daughter doesn't have a choice as to who her parents are either, right? So, I just, I'm obviously happy to hear, but I'm still trying to understand why you owe, or it's better, to provide an explanation for such brutal, violent, neglectful parents who presided over the rampant sexual abuse of children. I can't figure out what the fuck you owe them at all.
[14:33] Well, it's not that I see it as I owe them that conversation. It's more for myself.
[14:41] But why? And again, I'm not disagreeing with you. I don't know why.
[14:49] Well, yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head earlier when you said it's all just feeling based because that's pretty much what it is.
[14:56] No, but tell me about the feelings. Tell me about, like, it doesn't sit well with you. I mean, you're talking to a moral philosopher. It doesn't sit well with you. I don't know. I'd like to not beat up that hobo, but it doesn't sit well with me, all that piece. It's like, I'm not putting you in the same moral category, of course, but help me understand the feelings behind it. Because you seem to think that there's some sort of emotional advantage to this. And again, I'm not disagreeing with you because you're not me, but tell me what that means.
[15:28] Well I know like if I talk to them, I would just feel better about the whole situation of the fact that I talked to him about it. I gave my reasons why they're not part of my life. And yeah, I just feel that sense of closure. Okay.
[15:51] I wouldn't have that. You're feeling better about it. It's all feelings. And if you want to talk about feelings, you talk to the therapist.
[15:57] But you're talking to a moral philosopher, so the feelings aren't going to cut it, right? They don't for me and they don't for you, right?
[16:03] Yeah.
[16:04] You know, if you're in a long-term marriage and you feel lust for another woman, you don't say, well, I have to act on it because, you know, I'll feel better when I do. But if you're overweight and diabetic and you want a giant piece of chocolate cake, I mean, I'll feel better if I do. It doesn't sit right with me if I don't. Help me understand. Where's all of this goopy emotional stuff coming from? And why can't you explain what it means? And you could be right. I'm not, you know, you could absolutely be right. I'm open to being convinced, but I don't think you know why. And if you don't know why, this is a huge decision to make, to go and be vulnerable again with child abusers.
[16:51] Yeah, I can't quite say I know why.
[16:54] Okay, so what's the feeling behind it? Like you have this belief that you're going to feel better, but how do you know that? It seems to me, I mean, it could be that there's a kind of obligation because you're saying, well, I don't like it when people just cut off contact with me for no reason. So I'm going to provide that to my parents or something like that.
[17:21] Yeah, that does seem about right.
[17:25] Yes, but you're not a rampant, vicious child abuser. So if you're a nice guy and people cut you off without an explanation, that's kind of rude. Especially if they voluntarily chose to have you in their life. You haven't really done much wrong, if anything. And so, yeah, it could be considered polite, but... Okay, let me ask you this. Let's say that your father was a pedophile And your father had raped you as a child Would you owe him an explanation As to why you weren't seeing him?
[18:00] No, absolutely not Okay.
[18:02] Why not?
[18:06] Um Well, because he's just At that point, you'd just be an outright evil person So why would I even want to talk to him anyway?
[18:16] Okay So if your father was a pedophile, then you would owe him no explanation. Okay. What if your father was really violent?
[18:32] Yeah, same thing. I wouldn't know him in the explanation at all.
[18:36] And was your father violent?
[18:38] Yes.
[18:39] Okay. And in what ways was he violent?
[18:43] Spanking. a couple times he when I was very young he threw me around the house, he full on punched my leg a whole bunch of times, and as I got older and got stronger it switched to him being more physically intimidating.
[19:04] Right. Okay. So he was physically violent and a bully, right?
[19:08] Yes.
[19:09] Okay. So if I said, if your father was violent, do you owe him an explanation? You said no, and your father was violent. So how does that not fit into the same category?
[19:20] No, you're right. It does fit in.
[19:23] Okay. I would argue, or at least a strong case could be made, that your parents are worse than a direct pedophile. Because a direct pedophile has only one victim, whereas your parents were in charge of you when there were dozens of victims, I assume, over the years.
[19:45] Yeah.
[19:47] So that's worse, isn't it, in terms of the number of children victimized?
[19:52] Yeah. And it could still be going on for all we know.
[19:56] And, you know, it sounds like some kids were permanently broken.
[20:00] mm-hmm okay so if he was a pedophile then that would be no reason to give him an explanation but they simply enabled uh children's sexual abuse of each other under their household even when they knew did not act to stop it so that's worse in terms of the number of victims is that fair yeah absolutely it's like saying the guy who hires the hitman is he better or worse than the hitman well the hitman generally only killing one person or maybe wouldn't kill anyone if he wasn't paid but if he gets paid fifty thousand dollars per hit then he's going to kill a lot of people so the guy who's paying the hitman is causing more deaths than just the hitman would if that makes sense okay so you don't know explanations to evildoers.
[20:54] Yeah, you're right. And with you working that out with me, I'm not all that keen on talking about it either.
[21:04] Well, again, you seem to think, and again, I'm open to hearing the case, you seem to think that there's some sort of peace or closure on the other side of these things?
[21:17] Yeah, that was my impression.
[21:19] Okay, and where did you get that impression from? And again, I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just curious.
[21:25] Yeah no problem uh where i get it from like it's it's mostly for me so that i know that like the situation's been dealt with that.
[21:36] You know i mean by dealt with.
[21:39] Um that you know i talked to them about what i went through um why they're no longer part of my life and like that that's pretty much it like there's a reason behind it.
[21:53] Okay why do they need to know i'm trying to understand is the reason for telling them for you or for them.
[22:00] Uh for me.
[22:02] It's for you okay so what benefit do you gain from saying to your parents because you, enabled pedophilia or you enabled childhood sexual abuse and you were violent bully and all the other you know dysfunctions that i'm sure are part of that whole thing, so if you tell pretty corrupt and evil parents that they're corrupt and evil how does that benefit you well.
[22:30] The way i see it is if i was to you know cut off contact with them completely, and not give an explanation. It'd leave them wondering. They'd talk to other family members about it. There'd be that mystery as to why I'm not talking to them. But if I had the reason behind it, they couldn't say, well, our son isn't talking to us and we have no idea why.
[22:55] I'm sorry, why wouldn't they say that?
[22:59] Sorry, can you repeat the question?
[23:01] Sorry, why wouldn't they just say to everyone we have no idea why our son isn't talking to us even if you told them all the reasons. What do you think they're going to say to their family members? Oh yeah, no, we presided over a whole bunch of sexual abuse of children that occurred under our household. That's why he's not talking to us. Holy crap, what do you think, they'd tell the truth?
[23:19] Well, knowing my parents, they'd probably at least mention my perspective.
[23:27] Oh, so they're brutal and terrible and violent parents who enable sexual abuse at children, but they wouldn't lie.
[23:35] Well, they wouldn't agree with it, but they might at least reference it.
[23:41] Okay, what do you imagine that they would say if some other family member says, why is your son not talking to you, what do you imagine that they would say?
[23:49] My father would very childishly say, well, he thinks we're just abusive, so he's not talking to us.
[23:56] Okay, but he would say that they're not abusive and you're lying, right?
[24:03] Yes.
[24:03] Okay, so they wouldn't tell the truth.
[24:08] Yeah, you're right. They wouldn't tell the truth, but they'd at least acknowledge that I think that's where I was coming from.
[24:14] No, but they would say that in the way that you're so crazy. He thinks we're lizard people. And that's why he doesn't want to hang out with us. Clearly, he's going through a mental health crisis. He thinks we're space aliens. He thinks we're machine replicants. He thinks we're Terminators. Wouldn't they do it that way?
[24:33] Yeah they would and if any other family member got in contact with me you know i'd mention my side of what happened uh sexual.
[24:42] Why why would you why would you mention all of this and again i'm i'm i i'm open to hearing it but why.
[24:52] Well i mean aside from the reason i already gave like that's that's pretty much it but.
[24:59] Sorry i'm not sure but what reason that is for your other family member to contact you and you would give your side of things so you'd say yeah my parents were bullies they were violent and there was massive amounts of sexual abuse going on uh kid on kid under their roof and they knew about it and did nothing is that what you tell them.
[25:19] More or less.
[25:20] Okay, and then what would happen?
[25:23] Well, depending on the family member, they might hate me for talking about it. They might say I made it all up, or they might show some sympathy. Yeah, again, depending on the family member. Most of them probably wouldn't, but one thing I do want to mention is throughout the course of this conversation with your questions, Like, yeah, I'm not sure if even talking to them about this would even be the right course.
[25:57] Sorry, we're jumping all over the place. Okay, so your relative, if you said, yeah, my parents were violent bullies who presided over the mass sexual abuse of children that went on for years, even though they knew it and did nothing to stop it or something like that, right?
[26:12] Yeah.
[26:13] Okay. Okay, so do you think that there's a family member who would sympathize with you and say, oh, that's so terrible. I'm on your side. I agree with you. I'm going to cut contact with them too because I don't want to spend time with such terrible people. Or would they continue to go back for Thanksgiving and Christmas and Easter and whatever, right?
[26:38] Well, I can only think of a small handful that would take that approach. And they'd pretty much all be around my age, the younger generation.
[26:52] Okay. So you think that they would cut contact with your parents because of this?
[27:01] And they might even do it with their own too.
[27:03] Okay and what makes you think that's a rare thing to happen i'm not saying it's impossible of course right but it's a rare thing to happen and when did you first start listening to what i do uh.
[27:14] Back in like 2011 2011.
[27:17] 2021 right yeah No. Okay.
[27:21] No, 2011.
[27:23] 2011. Okay.
[27:24] Yeah.
[27:24] So it's been 13 years and you're still seeing your parents. What on earth would you think that other people would just be able to do in a week or two what you haven't done in 13 years?
[27:39] Well, I never said it would happen right away.
[27:42] Okay. So you think it might happen 13 years down the road at best?
[27:49] When you're 43 but potentially but but but but um like i was saying earlier like with your questioning and pointing all this stuff out like yeah i'm not sure if confronting them would even be the right approach okay.
[28:07] The odds of them taking your side morally are so close to zero it's virtually non-existent. It's like winning the lottery. Like, you know, you're more likely to get into a traffic accident going to buy a lottery ticket than you are to win a lottery. So the odds that they would take your side morally awakened are zero. They're functionally zero.
[28:37] Yeah.
[28:39] So don't have that in your calculations.
[28:42] Yeah, and I never did.
[28:44] No, you brought it up. Don't gaslight me, bro. Don't gaslight me. No, don't gaslight me.
[28:49] I didn't bring it up.
[28:51] No, don't make me dissociate. you brought it up you hang on let me finish you brought it up as a possibility right.
[28:58] I'm not for them to have a change of heart and be some amazing parents i never.
[29:03] Brought it up you said you said that they might take your side and i said oh so they would take your side and not see your parents and and you said yes and maybe even their own parents they would stop seeing too.
[29:16] Right yes i sorry i.
[29:18] So don't gaslight me bro what you're saying don't gaslight because this is part of the dissociation right so i think i'm not trying to be mr lawyer guy and catch you out or anything right but you did say that right yeah because i don't i mean i try to listen with 12 ears during these conversations right okay so you said and i i said don't have that as a possibility and you then said i didn't have that as a possibility not five minutes after you told me it was a possibility.
[29:49] Yes, you're right. And I was misinterpreting what you were saying. I thought you were saying with my parents, without the change of heart, not other family members. So yeah, that was my fault. I got things a little mixed up there.
[30:01] I mean, we were only talking about other family members. So, okay. All right. So... People aren't going to take your side. People are going to side with your parents, and your parents will lie about it. I mean, your parents obviously aren't going to admit that they presided over the house of childhood sexual abuse, right?
[30:18] Yeah.
[30:19] Is that fair to say?
[30:21] Yeah.
[30:21] And they're not going to say, oh, yeah, no, he's got good reason. I can't believe it took him this long. I mean, we were terrible. I threw him across the room. I bruised his legs repeatedly. I bullied him. I intimidated him, right? I mean, yeah, he had it terrible. We were terrible parents. I mean, they're not going to say that, right?
[30:42] No, not at all.
[30:43] Right. They're going to say, you're crazy. You've clearly fallen under a malign influence, probably on the internet, right?
[30:52] Yeah. Or they might say, I started taking drugs again.
[30:56] Or something, right? There would be something in which they would be perfectly happy to destroy your reputation rather than admit any kind of fault. Is that fair to say?
[31:08] Yeah, correct.
[31:09] So why do you want to give them that ammunition?
[31:18] Well, over the course of this conversation, I don't anymore.
[31:26] I think you feel, I could be wrong, obviously, but I think that you feel that if you can get them to understand why you're not seeing them, that would give you some peace.
[31:38] Yeah, that was my approach. Right.
[31:42] They will not, in a million years, ever give you that peace. Okay, how does it work in your relationship with your parents? How does it work when you have a great, deep, and hungry need for something from them?
[31:58] Amen. Well, if it's something very small, they'll usually give it to me.
[32:08] No, no, great, deep and hungry.
[32:09] Oh, yeah, sorry.
[32:10] Not like, pick me up some milk on the way home, on the way over. No, something like approval, like protection, love, and so on.
[32:21] There's a lot of hostility. They'll dismiss what I want. It might block me for having it. one scene that pops in my head very vividly is when I wanted my parents and sister to read Real Time Relationships, The Logical Love and my father was mocking me for it even my sister was attacking me for it Right.
[32:51] So when you have need with people, you are giving them power over you, right so yeah if you really want to ask a girl out you're saying to her if you say yes i'll be happy if you say no i'll be unhappy so you're giving her power over you, if you really really want a job if you get the job you're happy if you don't get the job you're unhappy right mm-hmm, Yes. So how do people handle power over you? So how did your parents handle it when they had power over you when you were a child?
[33:38] It always involved shitting on me in one way or another.
[33:41] So whenever you had a need or a preference, or you wanted something from them, whether it was time, care, love, attention, protection, whatever, right? They were horrible, right?
[33:51] Yeah. Right.
[33:55] So if you go back to your parents With a big need Which is for them to understand Why you're not seeing them And to approve of it And to give you permission How are they going to handle that?
[34:09] They'll use it against me.
[34:10] Well in some way You're putting yourself voluntarily Back under the power of people Who've consistently abused their power Over you in the past Yeah, that you're asking for their permission or approval or understanding as to why you're not seeing them. But if they had the capacity to understand you, you wouldn't be saying goodbye.
[34:43] Yeah, and you and I wouldn't be having this conversation.
[34:47] I don't think so.
[34:56] Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And even like outside of my parents, like when I come across people that have very similar personalities, I have no fucking idea what to do with them. It's always the same way.
[35:08] Oh, you mean similar to your parents?
[35:10] Yeah.
[35:11] Well, because you can't do anything with them. No, you can't do anything with them. It's like saying every time I speak to someone who only speaks Japanese, I have no idea how to negotiate with them. Well, of course, you don't speak the same language. You speak a language of personal responsibility and morality, and they speak the language of... Attack, domination, and falsehood.
[35:30] Yeah, with a good mix of manipulation in there, too.
[35:39] Sure, yeah, yeah. But that's part of the falsehood. But yes, no, you're absolutely right to point that out.
[35:47] Yeah, because I work as a welder, and I've worked in factories my whole life. and my father you know he does the same thing and like almost everywhere i go like i i'll come across somebody who's like almost the exact same or very similar personality to my father sure and like it almost works out the same way i think.
[36:10] Yeah i mean people who are who people who are run by emotions defenses and status uh don't really have free will they just act in a this is the MPC thing, right? Stimulus response, right?
[36:24] Mm-hmm.
[36:26] So you don't need your parents' permission or understanding or approval, right? You don't need any of that, to make a decision that's best for you and your future and your family or your future family.
[36:42] Yeah. Yeah, I need to defer that to philosophy.
[36:47] Well, you need the approval of your conscience. and these people steadfastly, I mean they repeatedly put you into horribly dangerous situations, and not just theoretically dangerous but actively, practically, potentially deadly, right? Situations as a child what makes you think that they would do anything to keep you safe or give you some sort of comfort or approval now?
[37:13] No, they were not at all quite the opposite.
[37:16] Well I think they would make you feel as bad as humanly possible for saying to them, you know, you guys are evildoers and I need you out of my life. I mean, if they are evildoers, they're not going to listen, they're not going to respect you, and they're just going to harm you when you try to set up boundaries. I don't want you to get harmed as part of what this conversation, I mean, I don't mind the harm, you know, we have to change or, you know, if you're dieting, you're hungry, it's harm or whatever, right? But this is kind of a needless harm, and I think it's too much of a repetition of what, I mean, do you want to try role play so that you can see how the conversation might go?
[37:59] Yeah, I could do that.
[38:01] All right. So you want to be your dad?
[38:03] Sure.
[38:04] All right. I, of course, might get some details wrong, but forgive me. We'll just have to go with the general trend. Okay. So I would sit down and I would say, oh, dad. So yeah, I really need to talk to you about my life, my childhood. It's not going to be fun, but it's really important for me. uh you know things things were really bad for me as a kid dad really bad i mean almost all the time i mean i you well we've.
[38:33] Talked about this before i don't want to talk about this.
[38:35] Yeah i'm sorry dad but i do so so if you can just oh what so.
[38:40] Everything evolves around you then.
[38:41] Well i would like to talk about it i'm not sure what you mean by everything revolves around me but i would like to talk about it.
[38:48] Well, I would not like to talk about it.
[38:50] And that's fine. Obviously, you don't have to talk about it. But this is all I want to talk about. So if you don't want to talk about it, that's fine. Then we can not talk. Sorry, just let me finish, Dad. Don't be rude. Don't interrupt. No, don't be rude, Dad.
[39:04] Don't interrupt.
[39:05] Let me finish my sentence. Let me finish my sentence, Dad. Okay, so if you don't want to talk about it, that's fine. But the next time we get together, I'll want to talk about it again. And then the next time we get together, I'll want to talk about it again. So all you can do is kick the can down the road. All you can do is have the conversation happen. I'm still sorry, dad. I'm still talking. Let me finish.
[39:29] Oh, get out of my house.
[39:30] I need you to let me finish. Let me finish. So you can kick the can down the road. That's fine. I obviously can't force you to talk about anything. But if you don't want to talk to me about this, I don't have anything to say to you because this is really important to me.
[39:45] Fine, don't have anything to say to me then. I already told you, get the fuck out of my house.
[39:50] Okay, I will get out of your house, and all the best. And then I would get out.
[39:58] Well, I probably would have stopped a lot sooner, because knowing my father, he probably would have assaulted me halfway between that.
[40:04] Well, and that's why I don't want you to be in that kind of physical danger.
[40:07] Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
[40:09] Like, please, don't put yourself in, I don't want you to get your jaw broken, I don't want you to get your teeth knocked out or lose an eyeball. because you've got a crack in your occipital bone or whatever, right? I don't want you to be in that kind of physical danger. For the sake of what?
[40:23] Well, and also, too, like, if I was in that situation, my father was attacking me because, like, I just could not let him win. Like, I'd probably do something. I could land myself in prison.
[40:36] Well, you could, right.
[40:37] Absolutely.
[40:38] Or, you know, he gets injured, he sues you, or he gets injured, he press charges, then it's he said, he said, he said, So I don't want you to be in that situation, because I'm concerned that it's not you who wants to have this conversation with your parents, but your parents who want you to have this conversation so that they have power over you again. This is not coming from you.
[41:05] Yeah, that makes sense. And my whole approach was it to be quite the opposite, that they wouldn't have power over me by having that conversation.
[41:12] Well, but the way that people don't have power over you is you stop needing things.
[41:19] Yeah.
[41:19] Right? So the people who deplatformed me, they thought that I was like them. So for them, the worst thing would be to lose power in the social, like lose power, lose prestige, lose money, that kind of stuff, right?
[41:30] Yeah.
[41:31] The worst thing for me is to lose my good relationship with my conscience and the love of the people around me, right? That's what's important to me, right? How much money I make is not that important to me. How famous I am is not that important to me. And prestige, status is not that important to me. The only thing that matters is my relationship with my conscience and my relationship with the people in my life who love me and who I love. That's what matters to me. So they took away what would be the toughest thing for them, but was not the toughest thing for me, So, they tried to have power over me because they said, we can take away your YouTube channel, your PayPal, your Instagram, just on and on, right? Patreon, we can take all of this stuff away from you, right? Now, how do I reduce the amount of power that those abusive people have over me? Well, I just don't want those things relative to my own conscience. Sorry, go ahead.
[42:46] Yeah you have no need for those like you've never said that you've wanted to be back on youtube or twitter well maybe twitter a little tempting but like all the other ones like you've said repeatedly that's not even tempting anymore.
[42:57] Right i mean so if you don't have a need they don't have any power over you and my concern was that with your parents having a need for something from them was going to be giving them, power over you.
[43:15] Yeah.
[43:17] And historically, it doesn't seem like they handled power very well, to put it mildly.
[43:23] Yeah.
[43:24] That makes sense.
[43:25] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, this conversation gave me a lot to think about.
[43:35] And I appreciate that. I don't want to milk your money. we've got a few more minutes if you just want to keep it to an hour um so if uh but the question is around the dissociation.
[43:44] Yeah and even throughout the course of this conversation like i've even noticed it start to lift a little bit.
[43:52] Oh no it's a good good so where do you where do you think the dissociation is coming from.
[43:57] Um well i think you mentioned it um uh during the live stream that dissociation is us like falsifying our true selves our true thoughts and feelings, um for the sake of others around us.
[44:13] Well this for the sake of survival yeah.
[44:16] Yeah that's true.
[44:17] I mean if you were honest with your parents when you were growing up i mean even now you could face physical assault from your father so if you were honest with your parents growing up it could have got you harmed or killed yeah so the dissociation is i i have to not be myself in order to survive right because our bodies care more about survival than authenticity right because if we're authentic it don't survive those genes don't get passed on like all the people who said well i'm just going to be honest regardless of danger those genes didn't make it.
[44:50] Yeah. And going from that dissociation environment that I was born into and trying to move my way into being authentic with people outside of the family, people I meet voluntarily at work and whatnot. Oh, it's such a, it's a messy, goopy crap. Like it just, like it feels weird at times. like because i expect almost everybody to be like my abusers.
[45:20] Well sure and historically that was exactly how it was during our evolution it wasn't like you got to swap tribes out or be a different kind of person or you know i i think about the aborigines in in australia i gave sort of speeches on those guys back in the day and they didn't have any chance to be authentic or different it was the same copy paste horrible day for 40 000 years so we're not designed to change our tribes we're not designed to go from inauthenticity to authenticity we're not designed to go from lies to truth.
[45:51] Yeah and the worst part for me being you know at work or volunteer groups or whatever is being half on and half off the boat you know still being somewhat dissociated not being.
[46:03] Sure truly.
[46:04] Authentic because then it's the worst of both i.
[46:06] I'm not quite.
[46:08] Fully dissociated but i'm not quite myself either so i just come across as awkward or.
[46:12] Well it's like if you uh if you're if If you're a fat guy and you're losing weight and you've just started, then you still look fat and you're hungry.
[46:21] Yeah.
[46:21] Like the worst of both worlds, right? You don't have any abs. Yeah, it's not fun. And you're hungry.
[46:27] Yeah.
[46:27] Or at least if you're hungry and you have abs, you've got something good going on.
[46:31] Yeah it wasn't much different when i was quitting uh drugs and cigarettes.
[46:36] Right yeah yeah at the beginning your lungs aren't healthy yet uh but you're still getting nicotine withdrawal right.
[46:42] Yeah and the mood swings and all that associated with it.
[46:46] Yes yes for sure so i would definitely say that i do not want you to be in situations where abusers have power over you and asking people for like asking abusive people to respect your boundaries is just saying oh boy he really wants me to respect his boundaries, interesting right and then you've got power over you again now they know you want something right.
[47:11] Yeah and it's showing where it hurts the most too.
[47:16] Yes yes so I would tend to try to avoid something like that.
[47:23] Yeah that makes a lot of sense yeah and I do believe that covers everything.
[47:30] Do you have any more questions or things you'd want to mention?
[47:34] Yeah, just mull over that. Self-protection throughout almost all of human history was an extremely dangerous game to try to protect yourself. And so be aware that trying to establish boundaries is dangerous. It's an extreme sport. and just if you're aware of that then I mean you want people around that you don't have to fight to get them to respect moral decisions or your virtues or your boundaries or things like that.
[48:07] Yeah I don't want to run after people all the time.
[48:11] No have people around who already respect you and then you don't have to fight for boundaries and I think that's a much better approach as a whole.
[48:19] Yeah that makes sense.
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