0:11 - Introduction to Sunday Morning Live
0:21 - The Nature of Love and Virtue
3:14 - Understanding OCD and Its Origins
5:39 - Exploring Bitcoin ETFs
6:52 - The Role of Church in Morality
8:22 - The Influence of Upbringing on Morality
12:38 - The Church's Response to Declining Congregation
13:17 - Anti-Semitism and Political Changes
13:47 - The Rise of Anti-Semitism
15:40 - The Impact of Economic Policies
16:10 - The Personal Nature of Ambition
20:53 - Navigating Relationships and Expectations
25:06 - Insights from the New Novel
37:35 - The Complexity of Relationships
1:00:44 - Ambition and Moral Dilemmas
1:08:32 - Closing Thoughts and Reflections
In this episode of Sunday Morning Live, we dive into thought-provoking questions around love, virtue, and moral instruction. I tackle the idea that traditional denominations often teach love as a response to virtue, contrary to the belief that one's worthiness of love from God isn't contingent upon their moral standing. The significance of unconditional love is emphasized, challenging conventional teachings and prompting deeper reflection on the true nature of divine affection.
We continue by exploring the complexities of moral instruction, especially in the context of social dynamics and individual responsibility. I share observations on how moral principles can undergo testing in real-life situations, particularly when individuals are faced with corrupt or aggressive influences. The stark differences in reactions to moral dilemmas versus confronting personal adversaries illuminate the challenges many people face in upholding their virtues under pressure.
Intrusive thoughts and OCD also come into play as I examine their potential origins, suggesting a possible link to overly critical family environments. This conversation opens a broader discussion about the impact of childhood experiences on mental health, exploring how anxiety and obsessive behaviors can manifest from a quest for reassurance in an uncertain world.
Throughout the episode, I touch on contemporary societal issues like the effects of cultural narratives on moral standards within communities, discussing how some organizations lower their expectations to maintain membership at the expense of quality and integrity. This leads to an exploration of how churches and metaphysical beliefs can succumb to market-like pressures instead of raising moral challenges, leaving congregants feeling increasingly disconnected.
We also delve into the intricacies of relationships, ambitions, and the unspoken societal implications of pursuing status and desirability. By sharing personal anecdotes and reflections, I draw a vivid picture of how ambition shapes individual desires and the sometimes convoluted motives behind attraction.
As the episode progresses, I read excerpts from my evolving novel that mirror these themes, revealing the inner conflict and self-awareness of the protagonist, Robert. This narrative intertwines deep explorations of identity and existential questioning within the context of personal relationships, ultimately portraying the complex emotions that come from navigating love and ambition in a modern world.
I conclude with an invitation for listeners to reflect on their own experiences with these themes, emphasizing the importance of understanding ourselves in relation to societal structures and moral codes. This episode promises to spark meaningful dialogues and encourages a more profound self-exploration regarding love, virtue, and moral authenticity in our lives.
[0:00] All right. Hi, everybody. Donor-only section of Sunday Morning Live This Glorious Day of the 18th of May, 2025.
[0:11] And let's continue on with your questions and comments straight away.
[0:21] It's pretty creepy how actually from what I've seen in more traditional denominations, the opposite is taught about love as a response to virtue. They teach that love takes conscious choice and effort. Well, of course, you are loved despite your sin. You are loved maybe if you're striving, but you do not have to achieve virtue to be loved by God. Jesus loves you no matter what, and so love as a response to virtue is challenged by some theology.
[0:49] Somebody says, The most useful moral instruction I've got has been from fighting organizations and some mentors in the military. Although I wasn't in the military, as I don't want to fight wars for foreign countries. Other than that, Stéphane has been one of the big ones. Well, here's the thing. I mean, if you get involved in a moral battle, and you'll see the limitations of moral instruction in the world, because most people just kind of despawn, or they generally slide over to the person who's the most aggressive, but to the person who's moral, and they betray the virtuous and side with the corrupt. And yeah, I mean, if you really want to see the real challenges of modern moral, whether it's actually worked, right, of modern moral instruction, then you take a stand against potentially dangerous and corrupt people and see who stands with you, right?
[1:40] You know there's that scene in saving private ryan where tom hanks comes to the matt damon character and says you know all your brothers have been killed spoiler well we know that right but uh he's saying uh come back with us to uh to to be safe right and he's like no no no i'm gonna stay with my my i mean they fought as hard as me i'm gonna stay with my brothers in arms right, And it doesn't, I mean, maybe that happens in war, but it doesn't really happen when it comes to moral situations. This is the analogy I used many, many years ago. Well, not an example, I guess, more of an example than an analogy, which is if you have a corrupt or violent or destructive uncle, maybe a creepy uncle, and you bring this up around the dinner table, people would generally get mad at you for bringing it up, not at the uncle for being weird, dangerous, or creepy.
[2:40] All right. In fact, I would say that most Christians are taught that love is supposed to be difficult, which makes people prime prey for predators who wish to make everything difficult. That's a good way to put it. It's a good way to put it. All right. They were definitely canceling the Christian culture. Yeah. Mm-hmm. All right.
[3:15] Where do you think OCD in the form of intrusive thoughts comes from? I don't know. I mean, I don't know. It could be some biological basis to it. If I had to take my usual amateur stab at the dark guess, I would say that OCD comes from verbally abusive, hypercritical parents. Are you sure? Did you? Did you not? Right? I mean, so if you're supposed to lock the door before you leave as a kid, right? Family's in the car. You're supposed to lock the door. And did you lock the door? Yeah. Are you sure? Are you sure? Because if you didn't, we could come home to home invaders and everything could be stolen. And right? And sort of this escalation. And, you know, are you sure? Are you sure? I mean, you can drive yourself crazy with that stuff, right? I mean, I remember reading about a guy who was, I think he was a psychologist. Just he was driving at some conference. And he thought he saw a body by the side of the road. He kept driving because like, I can't be a body. And then he's like, oh my God, like, what if it was, right? It turns back and, you know, comes back and forth looking for this body and there's nothing there, right? So proof beyond a reasonable doubt versus absolute certainty. So I would assume that if you had really aggressive parents, you know, did you, did you, did you turn off the stove? Are you sure? Right. And look, I mean, obviously leaving the stove on is not great, but.
[4:43] Saying something like, did you remember to turn off the stove? Yes. Are you sure? Yeah. Are you sure? Are you true? Like at some, if you keep, people keep asking if you're sure you're like, well, I mean, I guess I could have hallucinated something or whatever. Right. So if that happens, Then, you know, if the parent is concerned that the stove is still on, then you turn around or you call your neighbor and, you know, you have a good relationship with your neighbor so they can go in and check your stove. But you don't freak it out, right? Or freak it out. Or freak out about it.
[5:16] So I would assume that some OCD comes from you are afraid of criticism, and so you just keep doing stuff so that you have 100% certainty. But because the 100% certainty pursuit is based upon a lack of certainty, it never is satisfying, and therefore it continues to escalate. That's my guess. I just obviously, it's a complete amateur guess.
[5:39] All right. Looking into some Bitcoin ETFs. Man they really do obfuscate their information when describing their products, pretty tough to compare them i have to think that they do that on purpose i don't know i mean i don't know why people obfuscate etfs uh let's see here.
[6:03] Most of it she was interested in and specifically asked about to answer your question no she hasn't shared much with me aside from her own personal life and story. Hmm. Okay. Well, um, specifically asked about has to be because you shared stuff before. So it's not, doesn't solve the entire problem. However, uh, make sure that things are reciprocal. Make sure that things are reciprocal with, uh, dating people. Don't make it about you, like make it one-to-one, right? You tell her something about yourself, ask her something about herself. You tell her about a particular belief you find compelling, ask her about her beliefs that you find compelling and so on, right?
[6:53] All right. I have not seen the movie Winter Light. Yeah, fake boobs is another way that women try to get lust that they have not necessarily been born with.
[7:19] All right. My church, says someone, experience involved lots of semi-hypnotic chanting and repetition of words, Almighty Lord, our forgiving Savior of eternal mercy. I do miss regularly singing in a group something so beautiful by 200 voices of all ages harmonizing over those hundreds of years old melodies that had nothing to do with morals though yeah i mean the singing is quite hypnotic right a lot of particularly in america you know they have the rock band what was the babbling b article a bassist in church band, horrified to realize he's been unplugged for the last 20 years so yeah they have the you know the singers they have the the band and there's a lot of singing and singing is quite hypnotic right, I agree on the bullying, toughening people up. I took my Game Boy there because us kids would often hang out and play games or chat. I cared a lot about playing Pokemon back then, so I wanted to share it with the kids I cared about.
[8:23] Thinking more about what church gave me says someone i might not be here without it a catholic friend of mine introduced me to morality ayn rand and philosophy it never came from the priesthood it was always a parent thing good parents slash congregants made the church for me and were always very concerned about morality and the salvation of my soul are we donor only now super spicy for today. We are donor only now. We are. You can ask spicy stuff. All right. Weird about the local Rumble integration with them being owned by the same company. Yes. But I don't know if Rumble has that kind of same subscription thing. Somebody says, I had many issues with what we know as creedal Christianity problems that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I don't quite get that, right? Thank you, IKP. I appreciate that. Very, very kind. Thank you for your support. Agree. OCD and the overactive superego. Yeah. I think it is a magical repetition designed to stave off self-attack.
[9:32] Stuff like the children of God that Joaquin Phoenix's parents were involved with really didn't help the image of Christianity. Well, I mean, of course, for a lot of places in the West, the Christian church has gone through a decay arc. Now, when you have, and I'm sorry to put this in sort of crass material terms, but there's a way to sort of look at this and analyze this. When you have a product and demand is diminishing, then one thing that is tempting to do is to lower quality. It's to lower quality. So if you have a church and the congregation is diminishing, and you can generally tell this by the demographics, If it's mostly older people, then your days are numbered. So what do you do? Well, we need to get more people. We need to get more people into the church. We need to get more people to come and more people to stay. And...
[10:55] And one of the ways that you do that is you become less judgmental, right? You become less judgmental. So say, oh, well, you know, our congregation numbers are declining or they're aging out. So we are no longer going to judge, say, single mothers or men who won't commit or anything like that. We just, you know, it's a big tent. It's a big tent. We're going to open our, right? And so the analogy would be, let's say there's a sports league and the numbers are going down in terms of watching the sports league. The number of ticket sales are going down. So would the solution to ticket sales declining for a particular sports league be to have lower quality sports? No. The answer would be to increase the quality of the sportsmen or sportswomen, right? Because if the attendance is declining and then you lower the value of.
[12:09] Or you lower the skill set of the sports participants, right? Let's say it's NBA, right? And for whatever reason, fewer and fewer people are watching the NBA and you say, okay, well, we'll just, we'll really, we'll kind of stop enforcing the rules and we'll let worse players on the court. Well, that would not work. Right.
[12:38] All right. So the church should elevate its standards and morals rather than lowering them, but that's longer-term thinking. Since we're in the spicy zone, any further elaboration around the constant advertising of non-white men to white women? I mean, what is there to elaborate? I mean, that's blindingly obvious. Can people live without universal morals? I found lots of my problems stemming from secular humanism and the nihilism that comes with it. What do you mean by live? Of course people can live without universal morals.
[13:17] I mean, people do. I mean, the vast majority of mankind lives without universal morals.
[13:47] What do you think of the recent rise of anti-Semitism? I don't, I mean, obviously I wish the Jews the best, and it's tragic, some of this stuff, but I'm not really into politics, and a lot of it has to do with immigration and so on, right? So if that's not addressed, I don't see how it's going to particularly change. But yeah, it's very sad, very tragic. All right. Last questions, comments, issues. Come on, we got to go a little more. Spice it up, baby. Spice it up.
[14:23] Your product analogy illustrates the category era of the modern church, Christianity and following Jesus. Example, it's not a product to be sold. His life is explained in the Gospels. It was not idyllic in social standards. Well, of course I know that it's not a product to be sold. but, if to me it's a vicious circle right so let's talk about a university right, some generally free market-ish university right so in the university, attendance is declining you say oh well what we'll do because attendance is declining what we're going to do is lower our standards, and that way we'll get more people to come to the university and that may work for a little while until the lower standards kind of catch up with you and and then what I mean you can you can it's kind of like a drug if I lower my standards if I lower my standards I can bump up my numbers.
[15:40] So, if you lower your standards, you can bump up your numbers. I mean, if you are a restaurant, you lower your prices, you lower the quality, you'll bump up your numbers. But if you are founded on being a high-quality restaurant, it's not going to work in the long run.
[16:10] So and obviously this is this is somewhat personal to me right because i chose not to lower my quality or avoid particular topics i chose not to do that um and i kept the quality level high, as I really continually tried to do, I kept the quality level high. And as a result of that, you know, obviously, listenership to some degree went down and all of that, right? Let's see here. Black women lost 38,000 jobs in April, the most of any group. Economists say this sharp rise is tied to the administration's anti-DEI agenda. Or pro-meritocracy, you could say. Black women are sadly paying the price. This is more than just policy. It's harm.
[17:01] Um, so, uh, I mean, a lot of, a lot of female jobs, not all of course, right? But a lot of female jobs are just a way of bribing women to not have children.
[17:15] Are they, you know, absolutely real essential jobs? Well, not if 38,000 of them vanish, right? All right. Um, somebody says, have you listened to Rolo Tomasi, the rational male? He discusses a lot of the concepts of alpha and beta wearing alpha. What? And beta wearing alpha is more doing what someone wants without thinking of long-term consequences rather than provision which is provided through beta and his two. I don't know what you're talking about. I mean, look, come on, man. Help me out. Help a brother out here. If you can't be bothered to proofread and make sure that it makes sense, and unless I'm missing something obvious, I'm not going to, I'm not going to respond. All right. And I did interview Rolo Tomasi many years ago. I have, um, I mean, nothing against the guy. I bet I haven't listened to him. I think I dipped into one of his shows where he was talking to, or I think he was talking about Lauren Southern's ex-husband or something like that. And it was just like, you know, you know, that curse that a third of the, a third of the first third of any video contains no useful information. I've fighting that tooth and nail. And it seems odd that, I mean, how old is Rolo Tomasi now? Um...
[18:35] How old is he? He is 56. Yeah, he's 56. Um, I don't know exactly. Yeah, I don't know exactly. There's something about Rollo Tomasi that seems like a bit of arrested development. I mean, it's just a very mild sort of minor criticism. But you know like the muscle tees and the i mean the head stuff and all that um and the you know i i don't know if it's him who chooses but i i see occasionally on youtube these uh i'm in vegas with hot girls and i've got a muscle tee on and it's like dude you're in your late 50s you know i mean i know i've torn off my shirt from time to time that's more funny than anything else but, all right.
[19:38] The church of christ says someone lost doctrine and authority around the time of the council of nacea it was restored again in 1830 but these are six discussions of an hour's length not suited to 500 character messages okay now i'll skip that i've been exploring churches lately This is Alan. I thought I found a good community, but one of the senior members was a furry that would role play while the services were running. Okay. Okay. That's not great. I'm sorry, tired of the alpha beta propaganda. And I prefer people with multiple topics. I mean, that's just my particular preference is that people who've got multiple topics and who can apply first principles to a wide variety of areas to me is helpful and important as a whole. And people who have kind of one thing that they talk about, not quite as helpful.
[20:53] Somebody says i hope lauren does get her life sorted and finds a good christian husband, i mean who doesn't want the best for people who've done some good in the world right of course yeah, Furry church, otherwise known as Italian. My joke, don't blame the audience.
[21:28] All right. Somebody says, got here late to answer your question. It's obvious I made a huge mistake, says the listener, being semi-violent towards my ex-wife. I said, don't say x-phrase when I'm angry or I'll go berserk, which is somewhat similar to saying, don't think of a purple dinosaur. Not dissimilar. No, it's not similar at all. Saying don't say stuff is a whole different category from don't think stuff, right? Because saying is an action, which you can choose, right? An action you can choose. A thought is to some degree involuntary. Like, what I like in the morning is lying in bed for dozing in 20 minutes and just, you know, trying to organize my day, trying to think of thoughts, seeing what creativity is coming, bubbling up, what principles would be interesting, and all of that.
[22:31] And I can't control what comes in to my mind to a large degree, right? So the mind is a hamster wheel of involuntary inspiration, not exclusively, but significant. And of course, the contents of your mind are related to the prior thoughts that you put in there and so on. So it's not like you have no control, but you have no immediate control, right? So can you look at a really attractive woman and not have a response like, wow, she's really hot or something like that? Well, that may be involuntary, right? However, can you choose whether you go and talk to her? Of course you can. Can you choose whether you try to pick her up? Of course you can. So if you're in a committed relationship, or as a friend of mine used to say, I'm married, I'm not blind. Can you look at an attractive woman and not note that she's attractive? Well, generally, that's an automatic response, right? It's an automatic response. However, you can control whether you go and talk to her, whether you try and sleep with her, whether you try and pick her up. You can control all of that. So actions you can control, thoughts you can only influence.
[23:40] All right. How is the new novel coming along, Stef? That is a good question. That is a good question. It's interesting. It's very different and very new, especially working with the reverse time structure. But let's see, what have I got here? I'm on chapter four. It's a bit slow going. I only have 13,437 words, which is kind of low. For me as a whole. Often I'm sort of 3,000 to 5,000 words a day, but I have, I'm trying to not dictate. I still have a little bit of a buzz in my ear when I'm talking because of that virus, and so I'm not choosing to voice dictate. I'm just typing. Can you read some of your new novel? Sure. Yeah, I could read some if you'd like to. I could read some. I'm not offended either way. It's obviously a raw first draft, but I could certainly read some of the new novel if you would like. Just hit me with a Y if you would like to. Somebody says, agreed. Rollo looks like he's still in the Guns N' Roses Use Your Illusion Era. He does seem to get involved in a lot of internet beefs as well, which I find.
[25:06] Uh, what can we do, what we can do is stop holding on to bad thoughts, attractive married female. Yeah. Hold out good thoughts that they'll be a good person with a good family. Yeah. New novel. Okay. All right. Let's do the new novel. If this is what you want, ask and ye shall receive. Let's see here. Let's do, okay let's see here, so Robert is a young man he's kind of shallow he's got a girlfriend named Chloe that he is looking to trade in looking to trade up and they go to the beach at Wasaga in the summer towards the end of his university days.
[26:07] And, um, this is his, this is, this is chapter two. Robert had always taken a perverse pleasure and pride in his ability to nap on a whim. Occasionally he had to fake it just to keep his reputation intact, but for the most part, he could easily slide down the greasy pole of sleep wherever he lay his head. Robert was no stranger to petty vanities he could swim underwater for two pool lengths when he went snorkeling with chloe he showed off how deep he could dive this gave him water in the ear for weeks when he was 12 he experimented with various ways of walking hoping that others would see him and say yeah he walks kind of funny but he sure gets around fast robert loved the water and would go swimming in the school pool two or three times a week becoming a good diver he imagined that as he finger-scrabbled along the bottom of the pool, which gave him a strange comfort in his belly, that one of the adult male swimmers would see his ability and end up recruiting him for a new undersea settlement he was planning.
[27:17] Robert was surrounded by commentary. He swam in an endless sea of summoned syllables. He would stride into a room wearing sunglasses, his shirt opened to his lean stomach beer commercial themes running through his head. He patterned himself after various celebrities, played penny anti-poker, trash-talked other boys in beach volleyball, cultivated self-consciously cool musical tastes, and subtly scorned all the imperfections that surrounded him. He wouldn't say a girl was heavy. He would sympathize with her food issues. He would never call a boy a dweeb or nerd. He would empathize with his obvious lack of social skills.
[28:02] Unconsciously, for the most part, Robert, like most modern mammals, was in a constant process of positioning. Where did he stand in the hierarchy? Was he perceived as high, low, or medium status? If he could doze on a beach after lunch, even if he had to fake it, he was high status because he was free of anxiety and comfortable in his own skin.
[28:28] When he lay on the beach Sorry When he lay on the sand at Wasaga Beach Just before he met Helen Robert was only half dozing Floating through the vague orange constellations Of shimmering eyelids Below a fierce rain of sunbeams, He was experiencing an odd sensation of rising Or floating As if the sun were a giant magnet Or tentacle-pulling gravity well summoning and coaxing him up from the sand, past the thick, hot air, into the chilled, airless reaches of lower space, where he could somehow breathe while surveying the turning earth below, like a god, an Aztec priest, with a heart in his hand. The end goal of superiority is distance from all humanity as a farmer views his livestock. And then Robert's eyes opened of their own accord. He thought of this often, in later years, how they opened without him willing it. And he suddenly remembered a Tobermory cottage morning after a night of drinking when he was startled awake on a couch by a roller blind suddenly rising loudly.
[29:44] His eyes tore open and he fell in a muffled mental thud from the low reaches of vain space to the flat pink pile of flesh on a beach. And he saw Helen.
[30:02] The moment he saw her, Robert looked around for Chloe. She normally sat placidly nearby while he napped, but she was nowhere to be seen. Thank God, he thought, again, quite involuntarily. And then, she's no bookmark.
[30:22] Something that drove Robert's mom quite mad was his father's habit of buying bookmarks by the score and putting them between the pages of books that they both knew he was never going to finish. At one point, about a year ago, she had actually counted the bookmarks. They mess up the aesthetics of the shelves and used a calculator to show him that he almost certainly had not a long enough lifespan to finish all the books he had bookmarked over the decades. Then she tried to put the final nail in the argument by grabbing random books and demanding that he explain where he was in the book, what he had bookmarked, and why he had stopped. With only a few exceptions Robert's father had been able to answer these questions with unruffled efficiency then he had said do you want to tour the basement and count your unfinished craft projects listening upstairs Robert knew that any pause that lasted more than two seconds was an admission of defeat he could almost hear the revving of his mother's mind scrabbling for a way to escape the trap. No, she just sighed as if she were above such petty squabbles and left to go to the gym. Robert heard his father chuckle and put the books back on the shelves. Did he hear his father murmur, I got you, I'll keep you safe? Hard to say. Unfettered access to Brantle thoughts is so, so rare.
[31:46] When Robert first looked at Helen, her form, of course, since he didn't know her name, something coalesced in his heart, and his attachment to Chloe, brittle, fading, snapped, all at once. She was a bookmark. It was true all at once. chloe was a bookmark because no one envied him for having her, but helen she was in a red bikini and electric with energy, robert's first view of her sorry robert's first view was of her sticking the landing from a half hop cartwheel she had no ripples even from such an energetic maneuver and robert could not tell, whether she was showing off or was profoundly unselfconscious.
[32:45] He felt a stir of excitement at the primal male fantasy of finding a hot woman who has no idea how hot she is, an amalgam of an adult body with a childish mind that does not bode well for the maturity of the gazing male. If she knows how attractive she is, I'm doomed, thought Robert. Again without willing it Robert clambered to his feet he shook his head and raked his hands through his thick black hair feeling the light sand scatter down his back, he glanced left and right and saw or rather felt the admiration and lust of the men and a few women on the beach. Girlfriends and sisters rolled their eyes. Robert knew he had to talk to her. He also knew it was entirely dishonorable. And Robert suddenly realized, the realization hit him from his gut, that he had never experienced much anxiety approaching women because he had never really cared. Just a collection of bookmarks, he thought. Like Chloe.
[34:02] Robert strode down to the water, feeling sweat in his palms, his lifeline. Everyone can see me approach, he thought in sudden unease. His first thought was all the men on the beach turning to each other, speaking Spanish for no reason at all, and making quick bets on whether he would get her number or crash and burn. And only then, when he was ten feet or so from Helen, did he even think, with a distinct prickling feeling down the back of his neck, that Chloe might be bringing him a light beer from the noisy boardwalk, only to see his viper-shaped back rising over the new girl in the red bikini. He cared about that, of course, but not too much. Robert felt his heart constrict. as his path intersected with Helen. His mind was focused, madly goal-oriented, and utterly blank.
[35:04] She looked at him and laughed. It was perceptive, but not unkind. Whoa, frat boy cliché alert, she said, her eyes sparkling. Just a girl in the red bikini doing awkward cartwheels on the beach. Excuse me, that was a somersault. You didn't argue with the awkward part, though. He smiled. Oh, so you're heading into law. Make my day. Tell me I'm wrong. I hate to contradict you. We just met. She cocked her head. Feels like I've met you before. Because I'm such a cliché. She smiled. Oh, nobody's a total cliché. I'd give you an eight. I can live with that. I'm Helen. Robert. Are you here to swim or talk to me? False dichotomy. What is your primary motivation? You. She smiled and shook her head. No, I don't think so. You're a form guy, not a content guy. Robert hesitated, then decided not to play dumb. He laughed. Oh, crap. You're going to tell me that you're a content guy? You're going to tell me that you're a content woman? It was her turn to hesitate. You'd accept that if I were in a burqa? Robert leaned in conspiratorially.
[36:23] I walk the beach. I know who's looking. It's baked into our DNA. You know what's happening. Ah, lure them in with my bikini. Hope they appreciate my eternal soul. I think that's a fair assessment. So now I should show you a picture of my mother so you can look beyond my youth. Make it your grandmother. I'm a dedicated man. Helen considered him for a long moment. The men on the beach held their breaths. You're a smart guy. Confident, though. That could just be youth and upbringing. Like those factors don't apply to you, red bikini test tube, baby. Less than you might think, she said, a moment of sadness brushing past her face. Robert waited. Helen spoke her digits, then gave him a dazzling smile and turned to walk back the way she came. Wait, what? he cried. She pointed up the beach, strolling off with a lyrical sway to her hips. Robert turned and saw Chloe stepping delicately towards his abandoned towel, a golden bottle of light beer in her hand.
[37:36] He felt guilt, but not really internally, not in comparison to some universal standard of behavior that he had fallen short of. Robert had been raised post-religious but pre-philosophical so he hung above a chasm of hedonism a bottomless self-regard it was important to be perceived as good but not a sucker to focus on your own pleasure and preferences but also to throw some scraps and crumbs to either side to the less fortunate and the ever-wanting like any common thief the The problem was not doing wrong, but getting caught.
[38:18] Robert looked into Chloe's approaching form at her eyes and blowing brunette hair, scanning for the outrage that could trigger any self-recrimination. His generation could bypass conscience by evading criticism. He had picked Chloe because she did not nag, but her equanimity also freed him from the necessary constructions of a robust conscience. Who was that he expected her to say thus offering him a chance to explain his tentative betrayal or maybe she was pretty or something like that.
[38:56] Chloe certainly glanced at helen's disappearing form and she almost shrugged robert could see the impulse deep in her skeleton her marrow maybe but nothing materialized on the surface, A few jeers floated down from the watching mails. Both Robert and Chloe ignored them. Thirsty? she said, offering him the beer. Robert flashed a smile and took a deep swig. Thanks. Scattered applause from the higher regions of the beach. Let's walk, said Chloe. Was there a flatness to her tone? Robert couldn't tell. He wasn't sure if he wanted to walk in case Chloe wanted a more remote place to start demanding answers. Sounds good, said Robert, his mouth suddenly dry. Am I just a bastard? Would a bastard even ask that question?
[39:53] They walked for a minute or two in silence. Robert frantically cast his mind about for something to say, a topic to discuss, but his innards felt frozen and vaguely depressed.
[40:07] My heart is pounding, said Chloe suddenly, and Robert felt that this was the start of a much longer, deeper conversation, an entrance to an inner debate she had probably been having for weeks, maybe months. He frowned, pretending ignorance. Why? Oh, because it's a cliché, she said. We've been going out for 14 months, and I'm a traditional kind of gal, and I never really know what your intentions are. Robert laughed awkwardly. No, it's a fair question. What do you think the question is? He swallowed, and then swallowed again. Well, it's the... Where are we going? What is our commitment? What does the future hold? For a man aiming to be a lawyer, you are ridiculously imprecise. Go on. she rubbed her chin i mean i get that there is a span between us i think you're more attractive like physically you're definitely ambitious you made that clear i'm not sure if i'm an accessory or or like a a placeholder a bookmark thought robert.
[41:18] It's a beautiful day, he murmured. Do we want to define all the beauty away? Chloe frowned, almost scowled. What? Robert laughed. Sorry, that was a fortune cookie. We get along, we have fun, we merge, we gel, we vibe. The future? I've been focused on studies, marks, grades. Pleasing the unpleasable, you know. Robert waved his hands around.
[41:50] There's this canyon, I think, in me, between this beach, like today, and what my parents have, do you know what I mean? Like a fog bank. How do I get there, from here? I get the career stuff too well, I think, sometimes. I get the law degree, the articling, the bar, working dogs hours, grinding up the ladder to partner, being a benevolent elder statesman of the profession, doing good deeds in the world without needing secret handshakes or tiny cars. He laughed again. The words were just tumbling out. But going from this to what my parents have, that's the challenge. I mean, do you want what your parents have, Chloe? She pursed her lips. Robert watched, her delicate toes driving slightly into the wet sand with every step. I... The commitment? Sure. The steadiness? Yeah. I guess happy marriages seem to be on the endangered species list, so if I end up at the general shape of what they have, I'd be pretty content. It's hard to model the future on the past, though. Of course, she sighed, obviously impatient with herself. It would be different, it would have to be, by the nature of... But the basics should be the same. You know them, they're happy in their roles, they're stations. A slight wave of sadness and nausea enveloped Robert. The plaintive hungry banshee wail of floating seagulls echoed overhead.
[43:14] "'And you?' prompted Chloe, uselessly finger-combing her brown hair back in the crazed sea winds.
[43:23] Robert paused. The twin poles of honesty versus status tore at him from great distances on either side. I guess I want the material possessions. Don't look shocked. I've never hit my acquisitive side. I like the cars. The house is great. That backyard made me king of the neighborhood, unquestioned. I like that we don't really have to worry about expenses. My mom still does sometimes on the most random things, but my dad talks her out of it pretty easily. Robert imitated his dad. Well, babe, we have like a hundred times the income and assets we had when we first got married, so you need to think of a hundred dollar purchase the way we used to think of spending a dollar, kiddo.
[44:04] Chloe laughed. That's pretty good. Copy-pasting lectures is like my specialty, said Robert. He paused for a moment. The honest words were sinking away from him, almost out of reach. He grabbed at them. I'm, I think I've, you, don't hold me to this. I think I see life like a state of nature, not like kill or be killed, more like you go hunting and you bring back meat for your family, maybe your kin or something like that, but not your strange neighbors or those who did you wrong, blocked your ambition or spread rumors or something like that. What am I saying, he wondered. But that pretend confusion was only at the surface. Deep down, he knew exactly what he was confessing to.
[44:53] Goodness, murmured Chloe, and Robert took that word in a thousand different directions in his mind.
[45:00] Maybe it's a white male thing, said Robert, surprised at the words. I mean, society is kind of in a state of nature with me, with us. We have to carve out what we want, you know? Is that it? wondered Chloe. Feels like that, said Robert, slightly defensively. Or something like that. I think you'll always land on your feet, though, Robert shrugged. Maybe. But my kids, our sons, I mean, look at us. He held out his pale, freckled arms. We don't even tan, really.
[45:29] He could feel her discomfort with the conversation. He plowed on regardless. I mean, who do I owe my moral allegiances to? The boomers? He laughed bitterly. Yeah, thanks for the debt and unfunded liabilities and stuffing the whole world into the value of your home. He took a deep breath. I kind of feel... I'm just thinking of this now. Thanks for this conversation. I think I feel kind of... Unparented. I was taught manners, for sure, and I have this amazing ability to be both enviable and unoffensive. What am I saying? Like, just yesterday I was trying to think of a piece of advice my mom or dad gave me that I still find helpful or useful to this day, or maybe in the future. I couldn't think of anything. Chloe nodded. She took a hair tie from her wrist and tried tying her hair back. Go on. This was a phrase Robert now used often, which he had gotten from Chloe originally. I don't know. Like, I know you think of this stuff. I admire that. Like, what is my life about? Meaning? I don't know. I guess I think more about what is my life for? Not meaning, the end goal, end game, like a spy story. Get back alive with the right prizes. Win, I suppose. By what rules?
[46:50] But what is the fight? Status? Money? Success? Sure. What would I do to get them? Whatever it takes, I think. I offload my conscience to others, frankly, to you, perhaps. You want me to get mad about the girl in the red bikini? Robert shook his head slowly, his eyes stinging. Wow. Wow. Don't you? Where would you get that from? That's quite a leap. Chloe said nothing she glanced at her feet and then out at a giant shadowy vessel on the horizon bringing chinese goods from beyond the edge of the world.
[47:32] What was that about moment chloe almost asking herself more than him our oh our path just intersected when i was heading to the water we just chatted right as you would have if he were an elderly Asian gentleman. Oh, come on, that's unfair. I've chatted with elderly Asian gentlemen. Chloe said nothing. Robert felt that she wanted to look at him, but was afraid of becoming too emotional. She touched his arm, and he automatically flexed his muscles. You know, she said sadly, when I was coming down from the boardwalk, I worked for like 20 minutes "'to get you your favorite beer. "'I was looking for that little hollow under your ribs.' "'Robert said nothing. "'It felt like an incoming coup de grace.'.
[48:24] You wouldn't have sucked your stomach in for an elderly Asian gentleman. You did it for her. What was her name? I didn't get it, Robert wanted to say, but it felt too dismal to lie. Helen. She nodded again slowly. It's so funny, she murmured. What?
[48:48] Well, it's just that you're so interstatus, but you didn't think of me in that moment. Or maybe ever. I don't know. That feels unfair, but maybe. Robert swallowed. What do you mean? A tear escapes the eye closest to Robert. I don't think you can process or feel what it's like to be bringing your boyfriend his favorite beer, and have everyone watching you, knowing that you're just a special kind of idiot. What do you mean? What I mean, Robert, is... How would you feel if you were coming down from the boardwalk with my favorite drink and saw me half-draped over the hottest guy on the beach? I wasn't... Robert felt his anger and nausea rise. Please, she half-moment, half-whispered. Then her voice rose, like a sigh from a wound. Your moment of status came at my expense, Rob. She's using my name to mean steel, thought Robert wildly. What? I... She stopped, walking, and turned to face him. Can you admit that? I... I... I don't know what to say. She scanned his face, her eyes darting from one orb to the other, like in the movies. He remembered naming the constellations of her freckles making up stories a lifetime ago.
[50:13] Robert cleared his throat. I'm sorry you were upset. Chloe lifted a finger. Don't do that. It's not about my feelings. You're hurt. That's not better. Robert felt as if he were falling down a deep hole in his own body. To admit false? What is the point? Chloe sighed so deeply that it was like she was deflating. You want someone higher status. What? No. He stopped, unconvincing even to himself. She nodded slowly. She would... You would be proud to introduce her to your future partners. That's decades down the road. You don't deny it. And you just sketched out your whole life plan like five minutes ago, all the way to old age. Elder statesman. Robert struggled for something to say. He suddenly remembered a used boat his father had bought years before the three males had spent most of their summer trying to keep it above water rather than actually sailing it anywhere finally his father had allowed it to be towed to the middle of the harbour and used as the base for a buoy.
[51:24] Robert's tongue finally became unstuck. I don't... I just talked to her for a few minutes. It's my bad, murmured Chloe, and Robert's heart fell apart. You keep telling me the same things, and I keep not listening. My dad always said that everyone tells you everything about themselves in the first five minutes. Outside the party, when we met, you didn't even know what a good friend was. You were just there to get girls for your friends so they could get you jobs later. She laughed sadly. What did I say? I always have hope. Robert thought, I feel like I'm watching a good thing evaporate right in front of my eyes.
[52:09] Chloe pursed her lips. But she took a deep breath and Robert remembered her eyelids fluttering right before she jumped off a cliff into a deep quarry lake about a year before. It's not even you. You are too much of a temptation, Robert. Funny, smart, handsome, good family for the most part. Even the tragedy of your brother adds a weird kind of depth.
[52:39] You're kind of devilish. Sorry, I don't mean that religiously. You offer money. You'll make a ton, for sure. Comfort, status. You'll cheat, I think, but it would be discreet, in another city, on business. Nothing you'd find unless you really started looking. She waved her hand. It's not even about you. I don't mean to insult anything. You never talk about the right thing. Cool stuff, sure. You said we'd vibe, right? Nothing about love. Her brown eyes widened slightly. And I know you do feel things, but this is all the criticism of me rob she rubbed her white knuckles against her forehead leaving pale tracks i know all of this about you i have from the very beginning and that this is the saddest things pathetic really you've always been kind of up front with me you don't hide anything really it's not like we've been going to church i really hate excuses who am i to complain that you're really into status looking to trade up forever and ever amen when i'm with you to a large part because of your high status i went for the highest status male the alpha then i'm somehow mad when you go for the highest status female the alpha her voice faltered lived by the sword robert swallowed the lump in his throat felt wider than his entire neck.
[54:09] Chloe put her hands on his shoulders and leaned forward as if she were nauseous. He had to lower his head to hear her soft voice.
[54:25] I was so godly when I was younger, Rob. And I saw your great face. You do give great face, you know. And it was surrounded by toilet paper. Kind of a hint. Sorry, that's mean. Do you know how many people warned me against you? It took like a year to turn my parents around. Don't judge a book by its cover, I told them. And maybe I'm addicted. Sorry, I'm not like your brother. But I see this great future, comfortable, high status, good-looking kids. I hate that it counts, but it does. Or maybe if I didn't care, it wouldn't.
[55:10] You wait for the bus long enough, it feels like death to start walking. And if I rearrange your features in my mind or blunch your ambition or obvious amazing skills, if I change the outer shapes and trajectory of what is you, then I fall away from all of this, like that. Chloe snapped her fingers and took a step back. and I fall back towards God or something eternal, something good outside the icing and comfort of the material world. You can provide me everything except your soul, Robert. And I wanted that because you are primed for status and success in a way that is hard to comprehend and is tempting, damn it. And I'm sorry. I'm sorry for judging you by a standard. I am failing myself.
[56:06] You should pursue Helen, she nodded decisively. Yes, because you should pursue Helen for the same reason that I was pursuing you. It's the same principle. Who am I to condemn it? All I really have to do is learn from it. All the words had finally escaped from Chloe, like the last gasp of an open-mouthed balloon. The wind whirled around them, shaping and reshaping their hair as Chloe's words reshaped their minds and hearts.
[56:44] Robert felt almost a kind of possession grip his ignorance. His voice emerged deeper and rougher than he was used to. Chloe started and almost took a step backwards.
[56:56] Status. That's it. That's the whole damnation. Yeah, she's prettier than both of us. I had a moment of weakness, but to be portrayed as some kind of devil because I'm ambitious? Was Jesus himself not ambitious for Socrates? Kim Campbell? You want to do good? You need resources. You give to charity. Excellent. Maybe a bit premature, but I admire the impulse, Chloe.
[57:23] Can you give what you do not have? Maybe I am a kind of combine harvester. I just gather resources like a machine. Sure, but that's the job of you, your occupation. You can give to charity from what I make. And things are getting tougher. Our kids will need resources. I'm not going to apologize for being ambitious and very capable, as you said. Men make, women give. Nothing wrong with that. You miss church? Well, who gives the most to churches? Men. Not women. Men. Who pays the most taxes for all the social programs you like. Men. Who protects women, the country. Men, overwhelmingly. I know you're not a feminist, Chloe, but I swear sometimes it's like you don't want to even acknowledge the differences, let alone celebrate them. He cupped her chilled cheeks in his salty palms. And I love your moral side. I do. And I'm disgusted by the fact that I was drawn to that. Sorry. And I am disgusted that I was drawn to talk to that woman. And I am a contemptible hound dog and a status seeker and a raw knuckled fighter and I will step on the faces of rivals to get the kill for my family, totally.
[58:29] And if you don't want that, okay, fine. Then you should follow that impulse, I guess.
[58:35] But you're just trading one trouble for another. There are no solutions, Chloe, only trade-offs. You get a nicer man, okay, then you'll just watch him lose out to men like me and be broke and cry on an old couch because the world is so unfair. And then you'll think back to this beach to today and realize that this moral stand you think you're taking is just vanity. Act in haste, repent at leisure. Will you never regret going for a less ambitious man never over the next half a century when you live in a basement and your kids can't afford to go to the dentist yeah maybe i am too material i don't really care i don't have the tools or desire to tinker with my nature but you can be the heart and soul of the family chloe the community i can be the calloused bloody hands you can be the tender a nurse for the underdogs. We can be a team, the oldest team in the world, hard men and soft women. It's worked for thousands of years. You want to take a hammer to that tested formula because I sucked my stomach in for bikini girl? Robert shook his head violently as if to clear water from his ears. I will be faithful.
[59:48] I'm a little shocked at my callousness, Chloe, more than a little. I have taken things with us for granted. I'm really sorry for that. You are right at the center of my heart, and I owe you more than words can say. And I get I look like a bastard right now, and I look that way to myself. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater girl. High-T ambitious men have to have the right to make mistakes and learn from them. It's not like every charity you support in your life will be flawless. You'll make mistakes, and I have, and I'm sorry. But there's no need for us to.
[1:00:25] He held his hands up and widened them apart. We're getting to a kind of root truth about us, about life perhaps, and this can be a new chapter, something even more honest. But not the end. Not the end, Chloe.
[1:00:45] Robert was almost panting. Chloe glanced up at him at the streaked clouds over his black tangled hair. God, you're tempting. she murmured. He smiled down at her, pulling her close. So, be tempted. And that's the end of that chapter. All right, let's see what you got. Robert is a relatable character. I know a few Roberts. Yes, me too. Me too. All right i want to know what robert learns about himself am i am i robert thank you for subscribing david this is so good thank you.
[1:01:42] Oh my god this is excellent standard stuff excellence bravo damn it's an awesome novel i was drawn into the story very enjoyable thank you i'm trying to sort of mingle descriptions of the outside world, which I need more of. I need inner thoughts. I need dialogue. And I think dialogue is one of my strengths, but I do have to work on physical descriptions. Quite the rough draft, Stef. That was great. Thank you. I appreciate that. It means a lot to me that you guys like it. Um i like in this novel pulling the philosophical and the essential thinking out of the, out of the smaller things in life robert's monologue at the end especially yes i like the fact that they're making very powerful philosophical arguments in a very, confused and sometimes confusing way. Like there's a sort of kaleidoscope that's covering up some baser impulses, which they both know about, but refuse to talk about, or maybe can't, they like the language. Thanks for reading that, Stef. I had a strong welling of emotion listening. I love the depth. Thank you, Stef. This is great. I know it sounds like it could be a finished version.
[1:03:10] Cashing a Sunday life even this far in, truly the heavens do shine upon me. Oh, I'm glad. Glad it's helpful. Well, I won't go on because there's more, but this is where things stand. I like these two characters. They seem very vivid to me. And I like trying to reproduce people struggling with virtues and values without much of a language to describe them because they're post-religious. And I of course like playing around with Robert the Charming Devil, because he doesn't deny it you're so tempting be tempted be tempted give me power over you, and of course this novel is playing out in reverse so it starts at the end and then goes I want to go back and say here's all of the bad little small things that were obvious in the beginning that people didn't notice that led to all of the disasters. At the end, that's the general thinking behind it. All right, so let me just see if there's anything else that you have as comments or questions. Where did you get the inspiration for Robert?
[1:04:22] So I still remember his name, though I won't say it, though it was many years ago. There was a fellow who was introduced to me by a friend of mine who had a very cool life he was really good looking he had a great house he had a a um a bedroom with one of those slanted ceilings like a ceiling that was at an angle which was really cool his house was fantastic he had a great backyard he had lots of money he taught me how to play poker and i was really drawn in i was really drawn in to this world he was quite a drinker quite a partier um had women all over the place and was very self-consciously cool, and I spent maybe two or three months in his orbit, and then it just looked like a very dark destination, and I just had to pull out. I had to, like, eject. Eject.
[1:05:30] Where did that guy end up at? I don't know. I remember seeing him at a party a year or two later. That was about it. Robert is devilish, tempting Chloe with veneer. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I don't like characters who are immune to temptation, you know, like the sort of Howard Rourke stuff. I don't like characters that are immune to temptation because that's not us that's not what we struggle with i think you know like how many people have i had in my call-in shows who are, tempted by beauty and beauty alone right there's a show of course um a woman who's looking she's a former model and she's looking for a husband and you know the emails coming in to want to talk to her i'm not criticizing she was actually a very nice young woman but um you know when i ask people in dysfunctional relationships why did you get together well she was hot you know that kind of thing right so we all have this temptation or he was he had money and i was desperate and that kind of stuff right, How does she have so much self-knowledge?
[1:06:59] I'm not sure what your experience is. I'll tell you my experience. So with regards to self-knowledge, the way that I think it works, or the way it's worked with me, is there's stuff that is just kind of boiling and baking and rolling around in your depths, and then it just takes one physical experience, one empirical encounter, to have it all uncork. And the fact that he would be trying to pick up Helen, or it did in fact pick up Helen, while waiting for his girlfriend to meet him on the beach, which is off getting him a drink, that has crystallized. So you have all of these implicit things, you have all of these implicit things that have empirically accumulated in your mind, and then one physical example or physical action or one encounter or one circumstance or situation it just it breaks the dam and it all comes rushing in, so these are all little things and she goes back to when they first met all these little hints, and self-knowledge comes tumbling out because we accumulate these principles whether we like them or not but we avoid them and then, when something happens they just all come tumbling I've certainly experienced this in relationships. They all just come tumbling in.
[1:08:29] All right. Let's see.
[1:08:32] I will stop here. I really do appreciate your thoughts and support. And of course, if you're listening to this later, this will be donor only. I will thank you again for your support of the show. Lots of love from up here, my friends. Take care. I will talk to you soon. Bye.
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