Topic: Troubled childhood, modernity, advice.
I think I have had a childhood filled with particularly egregious examples of the postmodern order, such examples include, teachers who were outright communists, others who were very racist towards Whites, universal pacing of all kids etc. I think people even in their 30s would be surprised how bad it has gotten, so I want to get the word out there, I feel there is a surprising lack of first-hand accounts.
The other thing that I would appreciate is to get advice on how to figure my life out. I am in my early 20s, so couldn't get enough advice if I tried. Some of would maybe touch on childhood troubles, like having split parents, a dad with schizophrenia, and certain experiences with emotional neglect, and abuse.
In this episode, I engage in a deep conversation with a caller who shares his experiences of growing up in a challenging environment marked by family dysfunction and emotional struggles. We unpack the complex dynamics of his childhood, touching on themes such as parental separation, a father's struggle with mental illness, and the impact of being raised by a mother with her own emotional issues.
He recounts his early memories, revealing the upheaval caused by his parents' divorce when he was just three years old. Living with a father diagnosed with schizophrenia and a mother who displayed favoritism towards his sister added to his sense of isolation. As the conversation unfolds, we explore his feelings of neglect and pain, highlighting the absurdity of witnessing his father's peculiar quirks, like covering rooms in aluminum foil—symbolic manifestations of his mental health struggles.
The caller shares significant life events, including his feelings of disconnection from both parents and the chaotic custody arrangements that resulted in his dropping out of school at 15. Through his narrative, it's evident how the unpredictability of his household contributed to his emotional detachment and struggles with identity. We delve into his feelings toward his mother, who often reacted violently or dismissively, further complicating their relationship. I encourage him to confront the emotional barriers he has erected as a survival mechanism.
We also discuss his aspirations for the future, including his desire to break the cycle of dysfunction in parenting. Our conversation shifts towards his current life—living with roommates in Canada, navigating the complexities of early adulthood, and contemplating his career path. He expresses uncertainty about his direction and a longing for stability, admitting to having faced depression in the past.
Towards the end, I steer the dialogue toward practical implications for his life moving forward. The need for emotional reclamation becomes a pivotal theme, emphasizing that recognizing and processing his feelings is essential for forging a healthier path ahead. I recommend resources, such as books that can help him understand and manage his emotional landscape better.
Finally, we touch on the broader societal issues he faces, particularly the educational system and its perceived failures, especially regarding young males. This aspect of our discuss further underscores the challenges of navigating personal identity against the backdrop of societal expectations. Throughout the conversation, I aim to provide insight and perspective, encouraging him to confront his past while embracing the journey toward a more emotionally connected and fulfilling life.
0:04 - Childhood Struggles and Insights
0:46 - Emotional Turmoil and Family Dynamics
18:58 - The Impact of Parental Relationships
35:30 - Navigating Life Choices and Career Paths
39:51 - Seeking Guidance and Clarity
58:05 - Understanding Family Dynamics and Personal Growth
1:15:35 - Standards in Relationships and Self-Care
1:33:01 - Reclaiming Emotions and Personal Identity
[0:00] I think I had a childhood filled with particularly egregious examples of the postmodern order.
[0:05] Such examples include teachers who are outright communists, others who are very racist towards the whites, universal pacing of all kids, etc. I think people even in their 30s would be surprised how bad it's gotten. So I want to get the word out there. I feel there is a surprising lack of first-hand accounts. The other thing that I would appreciate is to get advice on how to figure my life out. I'm in my early 20s, so I couldn't get enough advice if I tried. Some of it would maybe touch on childhood troubles, like having split parents, a dad with schizophrenia, and certain examples of emotional neglect and abuse. Thank you.
[0:46] Yeah, no, that's great. I appreciate that. And let's start with the childhood stuff. I'm really sorry to hear about your father and the situations and circumstances. So, yeah, tell me what was going on in your childhood.
[0:58] Uh, yeah, sure. Maybe I'll just, like, start from the beginning. Um, let's see. Yeah, I was born to, uh, married parents, but they, uh, split when I was, I think, three. I, uh, I was second born. I have a older sister. let's see when I was four I was kind of put into like an alternative school that, was like you know very progressive like you know extremely kind of ahead of the curve in that way, let me think, well or i had uh.
[1:45] Sorry what were you do you remember your parents being together what were your early childhood memories like.
[1:49] Um no i don't i don't remember too much with them being together um you know i don't really remember much they split up when i was three so i i don't remember much at all from them being together maybe like one memory of chasing a cat in a house but and.
[2:09] What was the custody situation.
[2:11] Uh that's what i was just about to say i um i think i was with my dad on uh every second weekend and every monday so that would be four out of 14 days so i don't know what's typical but i imagine that's pretty normal for a uh dad.
[2:33] And when did your father's mental illness start to show up?
[2:38] That was when I was, I think, probably, well, he's always been kind of like a weird person, you know, like, kind of believes kind of crazy stuff. You know, some of it is, of course, correct, but some of it is a little bit out there. That's kind of been kind of my entire life. but when I was 12 it was kind of weird because it was like I have a stepsister too and it kind of seemed like it was part of a custody battle but he got.
[3:11] Diagnosed with schizophrenia forcefully and then I was not allowed to see him alone but at that time it was like I don't know if it was actually schizophrenia or if that was, wrong but it was definitely like pretty intense paranoia the probably the most like uh physically visceral example i can think of is one time i walked into his house and uh i walked into one of the rooms and it was just like uh floor to ceiling covered in uh in uh aluminum foil and that was like oh so that's Like the real cliche of like the tip. Yeah, that was so absurd that like it wasn't even like, it was kind of just like funny. It almost like took me out. I was like, like I felt like I was in a movie or something. It was like, you know, quite absurd.
[4:11] But well, but how old were you when you saw this?
[4:16] Uh, 12, yeah, 12, around 12 or 13, I think.
[4:20] I mean, that must have been a bit scary though. Not just absurd, right?
[4:25] Yeah, it definitely felt weird, you know, but, um, no, sorry, it might've been, I'm just trying to make sure I get the, it might've been, I might've been 14 or so. I don't remember the exact years, but it's somewhere around there, 12, 13, 14.
[4:43] And outside of the tinfoil on the walls, what was he like as an individual to interact with?
[4:50] Um i mean like personally my relationship with my dad is like okay and he wasn't like uh that that bad but i would say like he wasn't that involved in like.
[5:04] Okay so you got to break.
[5:05] This down for me okay yeah he's got tinfoil on the wall yeah yes i.
[5:09] Mean what do you mean he wasn't that bad i don't.
[5:11] Know oh yeah i i'm i'm like uh just like the interpersonal side like he wasn't I don't know. I don't hate him or anything. And... Sorry, I'm just trying to think of how to phrase it, because obviously, you know, it's hard to explain.
[5:36] We've got time.
[5:37] Sorry, wait, what was the question first?
[5:39] Well, what was he like to interact with at a personal level?
[5:42] Oh, yes. Personal level? You know, he was nice. If I needed something, he would definitely help if I asked, but he wasn't very... uh like he never really gave me like that much advice or was like too i don't know involved in anything involving like planning for my future or like uh giving me advice or giving me like i don't know the talks that maybe a dad would give a son it was so when.
[6:13] You i mean did he work.
[6:16] Uh yes okay.
[6:18] So i mean a lot of schizophrenics can't work right so uh what did he do or rather in what field was he in.
[6:25] Uh he was in uh construction mainly or actually he made he made jewelry and then he moved he did construction he kind of did both and okay so.
[6:36] He was able to hold down a job and all of that, right?
[6:41] Usually, sometimes he would kind of like scan employment insurance. I don't know.
[6:49] Sorry, why is that funny?
[6:53] I don't know. I guess I was just uncomfortable maybe, but yeah. Yeah, sometimes he wouldn't be working and would kind of flip things.
[7:06] Sorry, what do you mean by flip things?
[7:08] Like buy things, fix them up, sell them.
[7:15] Okay, I think I understand. So was he able to provide some kind of stable income for you?
[7:24] Uh yeah he he uh helped with money i think i think at one point there was kind of drama because he was like paying more into child support than we would get uh and there was like of course the government doesn't really work that well so it takes like you know nine months for it to uh get sorted out but, that's of course not really his fault.
[7:56] Okay okay so he was able to hold down a job so he remained mostly employed or at least productive for your childhood is that right yeah okay and sorry remind me how long or how often you were with your mother.
[8:11] So 10 out of 14 days I would be.
[8:13] With your mother okay got it.
[8:15] 10 out of every 2 weeks and.
[8:16] How were things with your mother.
[8:19] Um they were like they were mostly let me think i mean they were mostly okay or i didn't think too much of it let me think, so when i was four we were quite poor i had had an older sister and my older sister would fight because, I don't know, she kind of had temper issues and stuff like that, so... let me think so like actually i'll start i'll start now i think that's easier for me my brain to do just because it's easier to remember and then go back like right now uh me and my sister have a pretty good relationship um we didn't really like each other when we were younger but i think that's normal for siblings and uh no that's.
[9:20] Not normal for siblings.
[9:24] Oh is it would would you say it's common or well i'm.
[9:28] A common and normal i mean it's common to be woke that doesn't mean it's normal or healthy right.
[9:32] That's so uh i mean i.
[9:34] Know lots of families where the siblings get along really well i mean it doesn't mean.
[9:38] They never.
[9:38] Have conflicts but.
[9:39] They get.
[9:39] Along well as a whole.
[9:40] Then i then i would agree that it's a bad uh bad wording choice common would be more accurate, I guess.
[9:48] I'm not trying to nag you on your language choices. I don't want stuff to pass by that I wouldn't consider true.
[9:58] No, yeah, I understand that. Yeah, but my sister doesn't talk to my mom at all, like completely just zero contact whatsoever.
[10:09] And why has she done that?
[10:13] Um i haven't talked to her about it but probably just like you know.
[10:17] Cumulative what do you mean you haven't talked to her about it i mean you have a relationship right i mean this is a huge decision i'm sorry i don't mean to sound like nagging or critical i'm just you said you're pretty close and but this is the biggest decision moral decision she's had to make in her life and you don't know why she did it.
[10:35] Um well like i think i think i know you know it's just like.
[10:40] Kind of cumulative about it wouldn't you i'm sorry if i'm i'm just trying to understand like what does that mean like this is this is a big issue it's a huge issue for uh especially for a daughter to disconnect from her mother it's a huge issue right yeah yeah yeah and why.
[11:00] Well, you bring up a good point. I probably should.
[11:07] Well, it's not a should. I mean, I'm sort of having to recalibrate how close you guys are.
[11:16] Maybe like, no, I wouldn't say close.
[11:19] No, no, I get that. I would agree.
[11:23] We're not, there's no animosity, and now we don't hate each other, and sometimes we see each other, I guess. That's not super close, but...
[11:39] Okay, so that's the case with your sister, and how close are you with your mother and father at the moment?
[11:49] Um i i see them both sometimes um i would say i would say i'm closer to my dad than my mom currently um.
[11:56] Sorry you sound i mean the way that you talk as i come i mean i'm just trying it seems like this very heavy burden that you're that you're carrying and i i i'd just like to address that if that makes sense yeah like you have a very emotionless affect, and is that do you think that's just this conversation or is that more common in your life as a whole i mean are you aware of how flat and emotionless you sound i.
[12:27] I think part of it is just uh that's how i sound a little but it's probably a uh probably a bit of both.
[12:35] Both maybe meaning like it's an unusual conversational situation and also this is just how you talk yes, but why do you think this is the way you talk.
[12:54] Um even even when i was like little i was a little bit uh like weird sounding i think.
[13:02] No i'm not i'm not calling you weird sounding at all i'm not calling i mean have you listened to yourself if you ever recorded or you know listen back uh.
[13:12] Yeah yeah but i mean even when i i'm talking about non-emotional stuff people say i am sound, flat.
[13:24] Okay um uh do you have strong feelings or feelings because you know we're talking about some pretty sensitive stuff here right do you have strong feelings that you're not expressing or Or do you sound as bored by the topic as you sound to me?
[13:41] Um... No, it's something I do want to talk about because I think it would be helpful for myself.
[13:54] No, but you sound, this is what's confusing to me, and none of this is a criticism, but you sound utterly bored by the topic. It's confusing for me because we're talking about some important stuff and you sound like, you know, just this happened and that happened and the other happened. And it's just hard for me to gauge what's interesting to you.
[14:18] I think I might be more trying to think of what to say.
[14:26] Sorry, when you say you need to think of what you say, again, none of this is a criticism at all, right? But when you say you need to think of what to say, what does that mean? What's wrong with just sort of spontaneously expressing yourself?
[14:42] Good question. I guess I'm just trying to convey the correct thing and think of specific examples.
[14:50] Well, convey the right thing. Is that the same as just direct and honest?
[14:58] Well, no, not trying to hide anything. Just like give you the... I'm not sure. Sorry.
[15:08] I mean, just to be honest, and this is, again, no criticism, I experienced this level of caution in communication, to do with a lack of direct honesty you know like right like if you were being cross-examined by i don't know the fbi or something right you'd be like you'd really have to choose your words carefully and all of that right you want to speak to a lawyer and stuff right so i'm just trying to, figure out what's happening in terms of communication no no if that makes sense i'm.
[15:38] I'm uh i'm definitely trying to be honest for sure so i would.
[15:43] Say well but okay but so why is it, I guide my conversations to some degree by emotional access.
[15:54] Right.
[15:54] You know, if you've ever had a doctor like, I don't know, you've got some discomfort in your abdomen, right? They'll feel around your abdomen, right? And hopefully they don't find anything that's a sharp pain. But if they do, that guides them, if that makes sense, right?
[16:06] Right.
[16:06] Like your body guides you by giving you sort of, this is pleasurable, this is painful, and it's in its own way. It's trying to guide you, hopefully, to some, you know, good or better decisions, if that makes sense. So, if there's no emotion in the conversation, it's very difficult to guide.
[16:28] Right, right. Yeah. Yeah, I see why that could be hard.
[16:34] Are you feeling things but not expressing them, or are you not feeling things?
[16:38] I'm feeling things, for sure. I'm just maybe a less expressive person, and I could see why that could be difficult. So if you need to ask more direct questions, I'm fine with that.
[16:53] Well, let me ask you this. Okay, so direct questions. So, when you were a kid, did you have the same kind of non-emotional expression?
[17:14] Not all the time, no. And I have emotions, of course, everyone has emotions.
[17:19] No, I didn't say you didn't have emotions. I said non-emotional expression.
[17:22] Okay, sorry.
[17:23] So there were times where you were more passionately expressed as a child. Is that right?
[17:30] Mm-hmm.
[17:31] Okay. And at what age were you more passionately expressed?
[17:39] Probably like till maybe 12 or so.
[17:45] Okay. And what do you think happened that had you, in a sense, hide your emotional expressiveness?
[17:54] Um, I can think of one example, which is, uh, when I was, uh, I think I was around 12. So yeah, the age that I said, it was like, I think it was just me and my mom and we were driving to draw me off at school and we got into some sort of argument. I don't remember exactly what the argument was, but it was an argument. And then, I think she said something along the lines of, I'm not going to drop you off at school until we figure this out or whatever. And then she just started driving. Sorry.
[18:58] Sorry i'm was at the end of your sentence.
[19:01] No i was just breathing for a moment sorry did.
[19:04] You get a feeling there.
[19:05] Yeah so.
[19:08] Why not communicate while having the feeling.
[19:12] Uh i just wanted to calm myself down for a second why do.
[19:16] You want to calm yourself down.
[19:19] Because i'm just uh feel a bit you know emotional and.
[19:25] What's wrong with talking while you're emotional.
[19:29] Uh well i was i was breathing to calm myself down so right but why, I don't know. It was just a bit much.
[19:41] I guess. No, because I said, not that you have to do what I say, obviously, right?
[19:46] Right.
[19:47] If I say, it's easier to navigate these conversations if there are emotions. And then the moment you feel something, you cut off the conversation.
[19:56] No.
[19:56] That's not very helpful, right?
[19:58] Yeah, okay. I'll continue then. I'll try to not.
[20:02] And sorry, how old were you when you had the conflict in the car with your mother?
[20:06] I think I was 12. okay so she just.
[20:09] Keeps driving and what happens.
[20:13] We just like keep driving and I don't know where we're going but yeah we just keep driving for probably about, two and a half hours and I remember just crying the whole time, and uh like you know asking her to you know, drop me off at school and nothing really happened but, you know, it was two and a half hours one way, so it was, five hours But what did she.
[20:54] Say when she was driving? She says we got to work it out that's her job to work it out because she's the parent, right? So, what did she say?
[21:04] Um I don't remember exactly I just remember like you know crying the whole time.
[21:13] But she was talking but you just don't remember exactly what she said.
[21:17] No I don't remember exactly what she said.
[21:21] But she was talking yes so she was trying to I guess in her own way she was trying to resolve whatever the conflict was but it wasn't working for you and you were crying right yeah Yeah.
[21:38] But, yeah.
[21:39] I would do too, if it's any consolation. That's a strange thing to experience.
[21:44] Yeah. I just remember, like, crying the whole time. Like, non-stop. And I remember the day after, like, this is Just thinking, like, I'm never going to say I love you again.
[22:16] So you were really angry with her?
[22:19] No, not even like that I'm going to never say it again on purpose. Just like that. I don't feel that anymore.
[22:33] Sorry, I didn't quite catch that last part.
[22:35] That I like don't feel that anymore like you know like.
[22:40] Oh you don't feel that like for your mother yeah I'm not disagreeing with you at all but what do you think was the cause of that disconnect.
[22:51] Um well probably that event but uh.
[22:54] No I know that but what about that event or what was your thoughts about that event that led to that.
[23:01] Um I'm not sure, but, but like, I just remember it as like, like the most kind of.
[23:13] I mean, you were kind of kidnapped in a way, right?
[23:17] Yeah.
[23:17] I mean, you're supposed to be going to school. You have a conflict with your mother and your mother, was it two and a half hours out, two and a half hours back? Is that right?
[23:26] Probably maybe a bit more.
[23:29] Okay. Okay, so five or six hours, you're trapped in a car crying, and your mother is not solving it, right?
[23:36] No.
[23:37] And do you remember what happened at the end?
[23:43] Well, it just wasn't resolved. I probably went to my room and was alone.
[23:53] So you have five or six hours in the car with your mother to resolve an issue that you don't even remember. It wasn't like, mom, I'm doing drugs or like it was not something that big, right? And you got two and a half hours in the car with your mother and it's not even resolved and you don't even remember what the conflict was. You just remember the tears and the helplessness and the frustration.
[24:20] Yeah, I think.
[24:21] I'm not trying to tell you also that's what I'm sort of getting. So if I'm wrong about this, let me know.
[24:27] I think maybe also that I was just like sudden.
[24:30] You know, that you were what?
[24:35] Like, I don't even think there was any sort of conflict before we went in the car.
[24:42] Sorry, you said also because I was and the word it was sudden. Oh, sudden. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So this hadn't happened before, and your mom is just like, we're solving this. And then you're crying for like five or six hours, and it's not even solved.
[24:54] Yeah.
[24:56] Right. Did she at least give you a note for school?
[25:03] I don't remember. Probably not.
[25:07] And you went to your room, and you felt, I no longer love my mother, right?
[25:14] I think I went to sleep first. The next day, that's what I felt.
[25:20] And did she say anything the next day about what had happened?
[25:27] Um, probably like something. I don't remember that well.
[25:32] Well, no, you remember it if it was important, if it wasn't some generic thing, right?
[25:36] Yeah.
[25:37] Wow. And how were things after that? Did anything get resolved, or did you mostly stay pretty distant and cold?
[25:49] Um i i don't remember any like uh you know resolving of it that would you know no like big second talk or.
[25:59] So your feelings for your mother kind of broke on on that day or the next day like the morning after is that right or after you slept you you slept yeah and then it was the next day your feelings for you and have they returned or have you resolved anything with your mother since?
[26:18] I mean, I still would say I don't love her at all.
[26:25] I mean, so no, right?
[26:28] At some points I had an act of hatred and I wouldn't say I have an act of hatred anymore.
[26:38] Did the act of hatred occur before or after the incident of the car when you were 12 or both?
[26:47] Uh, after.
[26:49] And what were the, um, what were the incidents or the circumstances that brought on the hatred?
[26:58] Um, um, just like you know uh i.
[27:08] Don't know that's why i'm asking.
[27:10] So yeah yeah, um like after conflict or or maybe when i when i would like kind of think back, on stuff that would happen to me so sometimes kind of you know randomly i would feel kind of and anger about.
[27:31] Okay, that's as vague a response as AI could come up with sometimes when I think I feel this anger. Okay, but what did your mother do? And I'm not disagreeing with your feelings at all. I'm not asking you to justify them at all. I just want to know what the cause was. What was happening with your mother or what was she doing, that gave rise to these feelings of hatred?
[27:56] I remember like one time she like it was something it was something else and she i i also don't remember exactly.
[28:06] What time it was something else bro you're killing me here what are you saying i'm trying to understand i really am one time it was something else doesn't help me do you i mean if you don't remember that's fine no no remember i'm not saying like do you remember what she said that sorry go ahead One time.
[28:24] I don't remember what the argument was about, but I remember she broke down my door and didn't fix it for, I don't know, probably two weeks or something.
[28:37] So she broke down, do you remember roughly how old you were?
[28:44] I was just trying to think of the house it was in, so probably 14.
[28:50] And you don't remember what the incident was, but obviously you remember that she broke down your whole door. She kicked in your whole door. She shouldered. How big is your mom?
[28:59] Well, there's some pretty weak doors out there.
[29:02] Okay, I'm just trying to think of my mom trying to break down my door, and I think that the door would win. But okay, my mom's pretty slight. Okay, so she broke down your door and didn't fix it for like two weeks. So then that's pretty bad because you've no privacy or anything, right? So, um, and do you remember how, like, how, how did things end up with regards to her breaking down your door? Do you remember any of the conflict that occurred after that?
[29:26] Um, no, I think she like kind of, you know, calmed down like pretty quickly after she wrote down my door and like, I don't know, it wasn't like a giant argument, which you would expect if you're breaking down someone's door but.
[29:47] And was she ever violent towards you directly or just to objects in the environment?
[29:55] Generally not violent maybe I got pushed like once but that's one time.
[30:02] And did she have boyfriends or did she ever remarry?
[30:07] Generally there weren't any step-parents in the house or anything. Or... So she did not remarry. Maybe like... Maybe a little. But maybe like 10% of the time.
[30:27] Okay. Alright. And how often was she violent?
[30:34] Um... violent could could you could you say like what well destroying like king dundra, not that often what about throwing things, generally um generally that wouldn't happen to me but it would happen to or like you know sorry it would happen to my sister that way that way she broke off.
[31:03] Contact with your mom.
[31:07] Uh i imagine it's part of it like they would fight they would fight a lot i wouldn't what do you mean by that um like a lot of yelling about i don't even know what but yelling and uh, a lot of the time my sister would throw stuff but maybe rarely my mom would do it back you know just like breaking something on the floor or stuff like that.
[31:36] Got it okay and how often would your mother and sister fight.
[31:43] Um some years it felt like probably multiple times a week but some years maybe, a few times a month so So, you know, sometimes it would be worse. Sometimes it would be less worse.
[32:04] Okay, got it. Okay, and was your mother verbally abusive at all? Did she call your names or threaten you or escalate in terms of yelling or screaming?
[32:17] Generally, no.
[32:20] Okay, I just need you to be less vague. I don't know what... If I said, have you ever robbed a bank? No, I don't know what that means.
[32:30] Well, I'm just trying to think if I can remember. I don't think she would call me names. I imagine she did that to my... I imagine sometimes, but like, you know, when I was a kid, I was kind of trying to ignore it, so... i don't i don't really even remember what they would find about.
[32:57] Okay and do you remember any positive times with your mother and i'm not trying to give you like there has to be i don't know maybe there weren't any but do you remember any sort of positive or fun times with your with your mother uh.
[33:12] Yeah there were definitely positive times.
[33:14] And what sort of stuff was that what would happen.
[33:22] Well, I don't know. I mean, like, sometimes we would go to, you know, we would have vacations or go on, like, camping trips. And generally, my mom was much better when there were, like, you know, other people's parents around. So, like, I don't remember anything. I don't have any bad memories when I was on different trips or whatever, and they were nice. Usually my mom was nice when that was happening.
[34:04] Yeah, it's camouflage, right?
[34:08] Yeah, I guess so. I definitely very much specifically remember that there would be much less fighting, and stuff whenever, someone else's parent was around or someone.
[34:28] So she could be nice and she could control her temper when other people were around just not for you or your sister.
[34:36] Yeah. Because for quite a few years we lived in a bigger house and there would be, us and another family you know living in a bigger house and like whenever it was like that yeah it was very, noticeable like, yeah there would be like less fighting and everything whenever there was a different adult in the house.
[35:09] Okay and what are you feeling when you're talking about these things.
[35:14] Um I don't know, kind of sad and, Just sad and, like, I don't know how to explain it.
[35:31] Okay. And how often would you feel the sort of hatred towards your mother?
[35:42] Maybe once, like, a month or something.
[35:49] And were you ever able to and again this is not judgmental I'm just curious were you ever able to talk to your mother about issues or problems that you had with her parenting.
[36:02] Um I mean I've definitely tried I wouldn't say it was ever very uh, very useful and I don't think she's ever accepted that it was very bad. There was always kind of excuses one way or another.
[36:28] And what were her excuses?
[36:35] I mean, I can probably look but like just generally like not admitting that it was bad or whatever or saying that like it's already happened so.
[36:51] Oh like the old can't change the past right right.
[36:55] Yeah.
[36:56] Okay got it alright and if you've moved out or when did you move out or when did you cease to be under your parents control if that's happened.
[37:09] Uh when I was when I was 19 I moved out.
[37:15] Okay and how did that change your relationship with your parents if it did.
[37:21] Um well I don't know I wouldn't really see them and there would be less fighting and stuff like that obviously so so, generally when I see them there's no fighting but.
[37:43] I also get a.
[37:44] Strong sense.
[37:45] Of emotion from you at the moment. And what are you feeling?
[37:54] I don't know. Sad, I guess. And kind of generally emotional kind of, I don't know. Yeah, sad is probably a good word for it.
[38:09] And what do you think the sadness is related to?
[38:12] Um... Well, just like, you know, I wasn't in control of it. And I mean, it's kind of true.
[38:28] Sorry, in control of what?
[38:30] I wasn't in control of what happened in my childhood. And I mean, it's true that you can't change the past, but I don't know if that makes it better, you know?
[38:41] Well, no, I mean, of course you can't change the past. I mean, so for instance, if someone's a smoker, right, and they damage their lungs with cigarettes, I mean, of course you can't change the past, right?
[38:53] Yeah.
[38:53] And that's why you don't smoke, right? Because you can't change the past, right?
[38:58] Yeah.
[38:59] So it's supposed to be about protecting people, if that makes sense.
[39:05] Yeah.
[39:06] So, I mean, parents saying, well, I didn't behave better, but you can't change the past. It's like, so you know that you can't change the past, so you should have behaved better in the same way that you know you can't undo the damage that you can't unsmoke, right? So you don't smoke. But anyway, okay. So, and how old are you now?
[39:27] 22.
[39:27] 22, okay. And what is the primary? I mean, you talked about the schooling and the education, and I'd rather stay in your personal life, if that's all right. and what is the best thing that I can do to help you with your personal life at the moment?
[39:51] I guess insight. It's hard to know what type of insight you don't know, so any sort of insight. And then, of course, I don't know. I kind of feel like I'm not sure what I should do going forward into the future with life decisions. So advice on that would be helpful. You know, of course there's never a singular answer to what you should do. And that's a hard question.
[40:28] Okay, so how is your life as a whole at the moment?
[40:39] Well, yeah, I'm living with roommates, and I'm living with roommates, and I have a bit of money saved up. I don't really spend money that much. but I don't know I don't know like what job I want to do and I kind of feel like I live in Canada right and you probably know that like, I don't know it's not really the best place to be for like a young person right now so I kind of feel like I want to potentially move somewhere else, that's kind of a hard decision and, I don't know what I want to do I kind of like a lot of different things so it's kind of hard to know I like music, I like computers, I've done coding work that's kind of, is kind of what I've done it for a job in the past year and a half or so. Sorry, not a year and a half, probably it would be three years now.
[42:03] What else? How is my life? It's much better than a couple years ago. I definitely feel like I have a better mood. I was definitely like, I'd be classified as depressed a few years ago. And now I wouldn't say that I am, but it definitely comes and goes sometimes. But most of the time.
[42:34] What are you doing for income?
[42:39] Like I said, kind of coding, like freelance stuff. I did stuff like I coded a kind of crypto arbitrage thing that made me money for a few months and then didn't. But it's very unstable, you know? So I would rather do something that's more stable than freelance work. But I also, I don't know, I'm kind of a... I don't know. I have a hard time reaching out to people and talking. I'm fine with doing work, but, I hate having to apply for jobs and stuff like that. I don't like that. But of course I will.
[43:33] Okay, can you hear the rambling? A little bit of rambling.
[43:38] Yeah, a little bit of rambling.
[43:42] What have you not talked about? What's missing?
[43:50] I dropped out of school.
[43:53] When you say school, what do you mean?
[43:56] High school.
[43:57] You dropped out of high school, okay. What age were you when you dropped out?
[44:02] 15.
[44:03] Okay, and why did you drop out?
[44:09] Um that's like a pretty crazy situation it was like um like me and my sister were at different schools and my mom would drive us both to school but my sister would always just like be really late and, that would cause me to be late because you know she would always drive us together she would literally do like this is kind of a dynamic that existed throughout my childhood was like, favoritism towards my sister which is pretty crazy because my sister is the one who doesn't talk to my mom anymore but.
[44:56] Yeah so like even if my sister was like two hours late, or like well sometimes my mom would drive off but sometimes even if my sister was like an hour late or an hour and a half late, she would wait for her which would make me late to school and that like I don't know caused me to be like really mad and you know that's obviously extremely unfair, um so like you know sometimes i just wouldn't go to school because of that and then like that happened a lot and then as like punishment for that my mom would like turn off the internet while i'm home which would make it impossible for me to do school even when i'm home, and that kind of like you know then you kind of feel like you're behind for like no reason and it's unfair, and then it kind of spirals from there and, probably when I was 15 I was like, the most extremely depressed I've been.
[46:11] And was your dad, you were still seeing your dad?
[46:15] Um, for that period of time, I wasn't really seeing my dad, actually. I didn't, I didn't really notice that. But, uh, there's probably about a year where I wasn't really seeing my dad for, I'm not even sure why, but.
[46:34] I'm sorry, Sorry, was this around that age?
[46:38] Around 15.
[46:40] Okay. And you don't know why. Did you want to see him and he said no, or it just didn't show up?
[46:49] Well, usually I wouldn't have to think about it. It would just be Alice with my mom or my dad. So, you know, like, yeah, my dad wasn't really showing up to pick me up or anything. So it was like, I guess I'm not with my dad right now.
[47:13] So he just stopped seeing you?
[47:17] I guess so, yeah.
[47:19] Sorry, I don't know what you mean by I guess so.
[47:21] Yes.
[47:22] Because, I mean, did you ask to see him or do you have any memory of that?
[47:27] Um, no, I didn't ask to see him and again.
[47:31] No criticism. I'm just curious. Why do you think you didn't ask to see him?
[47:37] Uh, Obviously, I'm not I'm not sure it was probably, Just like so much on my mind that it wasn't even like that big of a deal, you know?
[47:55] Okay. Did you talk to him on the phone at all? Do you know?
[48:02] Probably sometimes, you know, maybe once a month or every few months.
[48:08] Oh, over that time. So you were dropping out of school, you were very much depressed, and your father was nowhere to be seen?
[48:15] Yeah.
[48:15] And did your mother help you at all? I mean, I guess she was part of the problem, right?
[48:22] Yeah I remember telling her to like just like I don't know kind of just like stop being in my life besides like, just providing me a room and saying how like, that would be better for my future and like arguing with her about that and, I don't know, she would argue that you know, somehow what she's doing is justified in some way.
[48:58] Okay. Okay. And anything, relationship with your sister or any other, I think you said you had a half sister or step-sibling, is that right?
[49:15] Yeah. I had a step sibling and I would see her sometimes, but I haven't seen her in, uh, but a few years and I kind of, I don't know, I don't really feel like reaching out, you know, um, if, if her mom or her, uh, reaches out to me, I would, uh, I'd probably hang out, but.
[49:40] Okay. Uh, so what you haven't talked about is, is dating.
[49:47] Dating um yeah i i i was like i was pretty weird when i was a kid and uh not like weird as in women didn't like me i was just like i don't know i was kind of like you were traumatized you were reflected.
[50:07] You were traumatized it's not weird i mean it's perfectly natural given your circumstances this but sorry go ahead.
[50:12] Well this this this is something I've thought about so I could be I could be wrong but I think like there's there's kind of I can separate it and I think I was kind of weird in some ways outside of anything that was caused by my parents of course that's hard to separate so so when I say I was weird I was kind of talking about things that are separate from that but of course it's kind of hard to separate and know okay.
[50:44] So what would you say was weird.
[50:49] Um i was kind of like a late bloomer i didn't really feel that much sexual attraction until i was like pretty old like probably 15 or 16 um so i didn't really have any like close experiences, until I was 18, I think.
[51:12] So you mean sexual experiences? I'm not sure what you mean by close experiences.
[51:17] I mean, like, I don't know. I wasn't really close to any women at all. You know, not even sexual. It was just like, I don't know, kissing or something until I was about 18 or so. But that wasn't because women were repulsed by me or something. it was more like I didn't have a desire for that okay.
[51:44] Okay, and since then?
[51:49] Like the details about dating or?
[51:52] Well, it doesn't have to be details. Just a general overview is fine.
[51:57] What do you mean? Sorry, like.
[51:59] Have you dated?
[52:02] Yes.
[52:03] Okay, and tell me a little bit about your dating.
[52:09] I had some pretty bad relationships. I think my first serious relationship was pretty bad. I'm pretty sure she had like a borderline personality disorder. So you can imagine that it was quite bad. But, uh, and then after that, I don't know, I had like a few kind of just casual, uh, things that were fine.
[52:43] How long did the, maybe, borderline go for? How long did you date her for?
[52:47] I think it was about nine months.
[52:49] And what happened at the end?
[52:56] There was some sort of... I don't know. She just stopped liking me. It was like, you're too good for me is what she said you know kind of like that and then she she kind of broke it off and uh, you know i was quite sad and whatever and uh i don't know i kind of got over it but like every once in a while she would like reach out to me or something and then i would be like hey and then she would just uh like ghost me after that which is i don't know fucking annoying but whatever you know, and whatever happened I'm kind of, I don't feel any hate torture and I don't feel like that affects me to this day I I think I've worked through that so like.
[53:58] And how did you work through it?
[54:01] Um I don't know I think just like time heals and uh i just.
[54:09] Hang on hang on hang on hang on that's a contradiction right i'm not you know trying to catch you out on stuff but if you say you worked through it that's true and then you say time heals i'm not sure what you what you mean.
[54:26] Well, I just, like, thought about it, and, you know, like, there's no point in kind of even, like, thinking about it enough to, like, hate someone or anything like that.
[54:47] Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean. I'm sorry, genuinely.
[54:50] Yeah, sorry.
[54:51] Your first girlfriend broke your heart to some degree because she was insane.
[54:56] Right is that right basically okay.
[55:00] You don't think that's worth thinking about.
[55:04] Uh my i'll be honest here and my honest answer is uh no like because i feel like, with uh you know like interpersonal relationships i've like, gotten better I try to be better and Oh so sorry so since your borderline.
[55:32] Personality girlfriend as you say.
[55:33] Hang on.
[55:35] So since then you've had a successful relationship.
[55:43] Well I'm not in a relationship right now but I would say you know they weren't that long maybe like a few months or something but they were fine, and I don't have any.
[55:54] How many shorter relationships have you had?
[55:58] Probably two.
[56:01] And did you go into them with the idea that they were going to be short relationships?
[56:08] Um, no.
[56:12] So they didn't work out?
[56:14] Yeah, it didn't work out. One person moved away, the other person Nah. I don't... Well, let me think. Yeah, one person moved away. One person, it just didn't work out. So...
[56:32] Okay. I mean, it doesn't sound like you care about these relationships, so I won't stick on those.
[56:42] Okay. Yeah, I think I just...
[56:45] No, you're fine. I mean, you're like, eh, you know, it didn't work out. One person moved away. It didn't work out. It's not worth thinking about my ex-girlfriend. So it doesn't sound like you care about these relationships at all. And I certainly don't want to care about something that you don't care about, right?
[56:59] Yeah.
[57:01] And do you think that in the long run you might want to get married and have children?
[57:07] Probably. I think it makes sense to do that. Well, I care very much about not putting a child in a bad situation. So, of course, you can't control if you meet someone who you feel could do that. You can't control the future, but yes, I would like to have children in the future.
[57:41] Okay, and what do you think you might need to learn, given, you know, with great sympathy I say, of course, that your childhood was really bad, really bad. what do you think you need to learn given that you weren't taught by your parents what do you think you need to learn in order to be a good husband and father.
[58:05] The most honest answer is you know I'm not sure but of course you do your best to try and learn there's of course always the unknown unknown but.
[58:21] Okay, I really can't do any more of this rambling. I can't just do any more of this rambling. You don't know what you don't know, and you always try to learn. There's no content to that, right?
[58:32] Yeah.
[58:32] You're just making sort of mouth noises at that point. And, you know, I say this with affection and respect, but, I mean, that's not – I can't really – that's just noise, right?
[58:41] Right.
[58:42] So you don't know what you need to learn in order to be a good husband and father, right?
[58:51] Sorry the correct answer is uh read your book through and through and.
[58:56] I mean that's reading the book i'm not gonna change your life and i get that but uh so i.
[59:02] Would definitely do that.
[59:03] Are you are you are you interested in dating at the moment or is there anything going on that way um.
[59:09] Not really at this point because i'm just like a little too busy.
[59:14] So okay so then it's if If it's nothing to do with love or affection or romance, then I think the only other thing that you mentioned was something to do with professional advice.
[59:32] I wouldn't say professional advice, but I just like...
[59:35] You said you didn't know what you wanted to do with your life and you didn't know in terms of career. Is that right? You wanted to move because Canada is not great for young people and so on, right?
[59:46] Yeah.
[59:49] Okay. So if you don't want any particular advice on the childhood stuff, if you don't want any particular advice on the dating stuff, is it is it that where i can provide the most value well.
[1:00:01] Do you do you have any insights or.
[1:00:04] You don't you don't care about these relationships so i don't want to uh i don't want to spend time on stuff i don't care about like if hang on if i lose if i lose a book i mean and i say i don't care to find the book you're not going to spend time looking for it are you right.
[1:00:19] Well i meant more uh childhood stuff or general general comments or anything uh.
[1:00:25] When you say childhood stuff or general comments i don't know what you're referring to what is it that you're looking to get out of the conversation and i don't mean this in any negative way i obviously want to provide value to you but i don't know how right at the moment um.
[1:00:42] I guess i thought that may just like talking it out and maybe someone else would have a different perspective.
[1:00:52] Okay but perspective on what, yeah and there's nothing wrong with the conversation there's nothing wrong with the conversation i just i want to provide value and i don't know how like i ask you about the childhood stuff there's no particular emotion right i ask you about the dating you don't really care about that. I say, well, maybe I can give you some professional advice and you say, well, no, it's not that really. I just want these things called insights and I don't know what that means.
[1:01:27] Okay, well, I'll just, I'll stick out the stuff about the, well, yeah, like I dropped out of school and I don't know if I should go to college or university. And I feel like, you know, that's quite a lot of work and I'm not sure if that's worth it or if I should just try to get a job or network.
[1:01:56] No, no, I get all of that, but I, you know, I'm not a career counselor.
[1:01:59] Okay. No, okay. I'm sorry.
[1:02:01] No, no, it's nothing to apologize for. It's totally fine. I just, I can't tell you what to do in terms of what job you should take. I mean, if I said go be a window washer or be a brain surgeon, that wouldn't make any sense at all, right?
[1:02:16] Right.
[1:02:19] I mean, I think that you're frustrated in your life. And I think you're, in a sense, transferring those frustrations to me. Like you feel stuck. and you don't know what to do. So in a sense, you're kind of making me feel stuck. I'm not saying consciously or anything like that, right? But I think in a sense, you're just sort of making me feel stuck and not knowing what to do. I think your helplessness is transferring, or trying to transfer it to me, if that makes sense.
[1:02:40] Right. Well, I hope I don't do that.
[1:02:46] I don't know what hope means in that context. I mean, have you come to me with a clear problem that you want me to help you with? I can't fix the school system, right?
[1:02:58] Well, do you have any advice on the childhood stuff? Or like, you know, I guess, you know, one insight, I guess I should talk to my sister about it. That's probably something I should do.
[1:03:19] So when you say advice about the childhood stuff, Again, tell me for what end and to achieve what end and in what area?
[1:03:33] Well, of course, for the future. Like, even when I was...
[1:03:38] All advice is for the future, because you can't change the past.
[1:03:42] Yeah. Like, of course, eventually having kids. any sort of things that would help me not, continue the cycle and be a better parent than my parents were. And, Sorry, I'm thinking again. And even when I was just thinking about these things, just before we were calling, I kind of had to look up different things just to see if they were normal, because I wasn't sure. And that alone was kind of helpful, just because when you're a child, you kind of don't know what's normal and it kind of just seems like everything is.
[1:04:47] Well, you wouldn't know what's normal because of your family. And this has nothing to do with, it's no negative towards you, but because of your family. Most kids raised reasonably well would have a pretty good idea of what was normal.
[1:05:00] Yeah, yeah.
[1:05:04] Okay, so tell me a little bit about your current relationship with your mother and father.
[1:05:09] Um sometimes probably maybe every one or two weeks I'll go out to eat with my dad and, I'll see my mom maybe once every one or two months and talk just a little bit.
[1:05:28] Okay so tell me about your uh dinners with your dad what do you talk about.
[1:05:34] Uh Nothing emotional. Usually, we'll have conversations, but usually they're about things instead of people, or about politics, or just about whatever.
[1:05:52] Okay, is he aware that you're kind of feeling a little bit lost in life?
[1:06:01] I haven't talked about that.
[1:06:03] Okay, does he know that you dropped out at 15?
[1:06:09] Um i would i would hope so.
[1:06:11] What do you mean he doesn't know that you dropped out of high school.
[1:06:16] He's never really talked to me about it but i mean i would have to assume that yes he does know.
[1:06:24] Okay so he knows that you dropped out of high school um does he know that you don't really know what to do with your life at the moment um.
[1:06:35] I haven't talked to him about it so probably not.
[1:06:39] Okay so how is he how is he functioning as a father if he doesn't really know much about your life doesn't really give you any advice and doesn't seem to take much of an interest in, the issues that you're facing as his son?
[1:07:00] I guess not well.
[1:07:04] Okay. Would you like him to function as a father?
[1:07:09] Yes.
[1:07:10] What would that look like to you? Um...
[1:07:18] Just like talking things out with me, maybe being a bit more, you know, proactive, like kind of trying to.
[1:07:29] Sorry, a bit more proactive. How proactive is he being at all?
[1:07:36] Yeah, I guess proactive.
[1:07:38] At all, right? Okay. So you would like him to be curious about your life, know what's going on with you, and be helpful, right?
[1:07:47] Yeah.
[1:07:48] Okay. And do you feel that he's going to do that of his own accord?
[1:07:54] No.
[1:07:55] Okay. Have you ever talked to him directly about his deficiencies as a father?
[1:08:03] No.
[1:08:04] Okay. And why not?
[1:08:09] It would be very awkward. and I don't think I've ever really talked about emotions or anything like that to my dad. So it just feels quite unnatural to do.
[1:08:22] I get that. So what? It feels unnatural to have to do with anything.
[1:08:28] Well, I was just trying to answer honestly to why not.
[1:08:32] I know, but I'm allowed to object to your answer, to the non-answer, right? I mean, it feels unnatural to go to the dentist, right? Because it feels like people scraping your teeth shouldn't be good for you, but we go to the dentist, right? It feels unnatural to exercise if you haven't exercised in a while, but we still do it, right? For me, it feels half unnatural to eat anything except cheesecake, but I do my best.
[1:08:57] Right.
[1:08:58] So I'm not sure what the unnatural thing is. I mean it feels unnatural to have a conversation though we are probably a thousand miles apart or whatever right so the unnatural thing doesn't answer much, why haven't you talked to your father about I mean you've been listening to me for a while right so you've probably heard me say this kind of stuff that you should be honest with the people in your life.
[1:09:29] Yeah, I guess I don't have the best reason, you know? I should.
[1:09:35] Yeah, okay, but why not? I mean, see, my problem is that if you don't take my advice when we're not talking, I'm not sure why you would take my advice when we are talking.
[1:09:46] Right.
[1:09:49] And again, this is not a criticism at all, I'm just telling you.
[1:09:51] No, no. No, I don't take anything personally. I know you're up.
[1:09:57] You probably should. I think you should sometimes.
[1:10:00] Well, I don't take anything personally that I shouldn't, usually. I'm not perfect.
[1:10:07] Okay. All right. That's just, I don't really know what that means, because I think that's a struggle for everyone, but let's say you've got it down pat at 22. Okay. All right. So, what about your mother? Have you ever talked to your mother about her deficiencies as a parent, or just been honest about things that have bothered you?
[1:10:29] Yes I have.
[1:10:30] And how did that go.
[1:10:36] Usually it never really went well, and there was like you know there wasn't even really the admission that anything was wrong and more just like it had to happen that way okay so.
[1:10:51] She's never she's never accepted responsibility or taken ownership of what she did.
[1:10:58] Um, I think once I like really freaked out and I think she apologized and said that it was like, you know, she, she basically apologized for some stuff, but like, I, I, I basically had to like point out exactly what she did, like basically beg her to apologize for.
[1:11:19] Okay. But of her own initiative without you freaking out, she doesn't do these things, right?
[1:11:23] No.
[1:11:24] Okay. So, um, what are the pluses of seeing your parents and i'm not saying there aren't any i'm i'm just curious what are the what are the pluses, Because you are spending time with people who don't seem to care much about you. I mean, does your mother, obviously your mother knows that you dropped out and your mother knows that you're feeling a little lost in life seven years after you left high school. I mean, what does she do about it?
[1:11:55] Yeah, I mean, there aren't that many benefits. I do enjoy just talking to my dad, but that's not like the greatest benefit ever.
[1:12:10] Right okay um okay so there these are two people who didn't really raise you and don't seem to be very invested in you as a person and and your success or your failure your thoughts your dreams they seem to be somewhat indifferent because they're really not digging in and asking what's going on and how they can help right yeah, And so does that mean anything to you, that they don't really care?
[1:12:42] Yeah, well, it frustrates me for sure, and I don't like that it is that way. And maybe there aren't that many benefits to talking to them.
[1:12:58] Well i mean every time we spend time with people who don't really care about us we kind of affirm that we're not really worth caring about, like i have a standard in my life that people have to care about me and the people around me have a standard that i have to care about them right right and so if i were to spend a lot of time or spend repetitive time with people who don't care about me i'm kind of affirming that i'm not really worth caring about right, Because if you had a standard in your life which says, you know, people got to care about me.
[1:13:31] Uh-huh.
[1:13:33] Well, what would that change in your life if that was your absolute standard, like gravity, like people just have to really care about me?
[1:13:43] Well, I think I do apply that standard to friends. I guess it's harder to apply that standard to parents for probably illogical reasons. But I mean, yeah, I used to have friends that I kind of started trying to be a better person personally. And I kind of decided that I'm not going to try and push people to... like hang out with me or, you know, like, yeah, I did that for like friends and I don't really talk to anyone anymore after doing that.
[1:14:26] Sorry, I'm a little confused. I thought you said that you do have friends around you who care about you. And then you said when you had standards for your friends, you don't really talk to anyone anymore. I'm sorry if I misunderstood.
[1:14:35] No, no, no, no, no, no. I had friends that were like, okay. And then, and then I started to, I started to like you know just trying to be like nicer to people and also kind of have better standards for myself and now I don't really talk to anyone.
[1:14:56] So when you were nicer to your friends they stopped talking to you.
[1:15:01] Um I'm not I'm not sure.
[1:15:04] I'm just trying to follow what you're.
[1:15:06] Saying I'm just trying.
[1:15:08] To follow what the heck you're saying.
[1:15:09] Sorry sorry I wasn't trying to imply causation Okay.
[1:15:15] So you raised your standards with your friends and now they don't talk to you. Okay. And what standards did you raise with your friends that they don't talk to you?
[1:15:36] I just want, there to be equal uh kind of footing and i don't i don't want to have to like chase someone around to get them to do something you know.
[1:15:50] Oh like so if you stopped initiating get-togethers nothing really happened is that right yeah well i think we've all been there in our lives and i really sympathize with that for sure we've all had friends where you think it's a friendship but once you stop applying 150 energy it turns into be pretty much nothing right yeah right okay okay, So who would you say in your life really cares about you, understands you, and wants the best for you?
[1:16:25] I mean, hopefully myself, and maybe that's about it currently.
[1:16:31] Right, okay. And I'm really sorry for that, because of course you should have grown up with people who cared about you and understood you and wanted the best for you, right?
[1:16:40] Yeah.
[1:16:41] But you didn't, and it wasn't like it came in from teachers or priests or, I assume, extended family. There was nobody, you know, the problem is when you are around people who are this dysfunctional, there just aren't any functional people around.
[1:16:57] Yeah. I mean, I have good relationships with some of my extended family, but none of them live near me, and most of them are played away.
[1:17:09] Well, but hang on. So if you have a good relationship with members of your extended family, then they must talk to you. I mean, people tell me this. It's a funny thing. like we're having a conversation with thousands of miles apart but then you say well people are far away it's like so what i mean there's video calls there's audio calls so if people you have good relationships with extended family members then they must know about your struggles and dropping out of high school and do you ask them for advice or get feedback on your life.
[1:17:39] Well you're you're right i guess.
[1:17:41] What about your girlfriend your borderline personality disorder girlfriend you were saying about did they give you good advice on that or.
[1:17:50] I gotta say no you know.
[1:17:53] Okay so are people really close to you if they let you get half chewed up by a crazy woman um.
[1:18:00] I guess not no.
[1:18:09] So, it's going to be tough for you to learn how to care about yourself, I think, because you grew up without being cared for, it sounds like, for the most part.
[1:18:20] Right.
[1:18:24] I mean, I don't understand when your child's struggling that you just get together and talk about useless shit like politics or whatever, right?
[1:18:32] Yeah.
[1:18:33] I mean, do you think your father, we're guessing, right? But you know him pretty well, right? Do you think your father understands that you're struggling at the moment?
[1:18:46] I mean, I would think that he would have, you know, clues maybe or, you know, I would guess so.
[1:18:57] Okay, so your father knows that you're struggling and doesn't do anything about it, right? He doesn't say, hey, you know, you seem to be counted down or, you know, I mean, he didn't seem to give much of a rat's ass when you were really depressed at 15. and you didn't see him for a year.
[1:19:11] Right.
[1:19:12] And that was the year you left high school, right? Which is a big old decision.
[1:19:17] Uh-huh.
[1:19:20] And he's never even talked to you about the fact that you dropped out at 15.
[1:19:26] Yeah.
[1:19:28] I mean, this... I mean, what is this major malfunction that's bizarre to me?
[1:19:37] Yeah i i guess a lot of stuff when you think about it like whenever i i think about it from the other perspective you know i find it quite bizarre uh and much more clear that it's kind of crazy or whatnot uh you know because it's just stuff that like you know i would never uh or at least i hope i would never do you know like, oh i mean even getting angry even getting angry at like a child for something that is you know absurd it's like i don't it's like so outside of, like my mental state that it just seems like i can't even i can't even imagine well.
[1:20:25] Can you imagine.
[1:20:26] Not talking.
[1:20:26] To your own child for a year when your child is going through a major crisis This is a production of WGBH.
[1:20:33] No, I would hope not.
[1:20:36] Okay, so would you consider it bad parenting to not even talk to your child for a year when your child is going through a major crisis, especially when you have handed over your child to some degree, I know there's courts and all of that, to a woman you know is highly dysfunctional?
[1:20:54] Yeah.
[1:20:56] So can you, that would be bad parenting, right?
[1:20:58] Yeah.
[1:20:58] Your father was a bad father and is remains a bad father terrible in fact like appalling, yeah like if there's a gold medal for bad fathers he'd at least rank silver, right and are you aware of that.
[1:21:19] Um maybe my just like, the stuff with my mom was so bad I never really thought about you know if my dad was bad or whatever but I.
[1:21:35] Mean I would agree with your diagnosis he's the guy who got away because he just basically ran and he abandoned you to your whatever mother right yeah, okay and does he date does he what's his life like.
[1:21:56] Um he still does construction on and off and flipping stuff on and off and I know he, he dated a woman for a couple years but I don't know much about his dating life or if he's I don't think he's currently with her.
[1:22:19] Okay so your father was a bad father and your mother how would you rate her?
[1:22:30] A bad mother too.
[1:22:32] Okay. And I sympathize with that. That is, of course, of course not your fault. I don't even need to say it, right? But of course that's not your fault. And I really, really sympathize with that.
[1:22:44] Yeah.
[1:22:46] But if you let people who don't care about you in your life, one of the consequences is it's really hard to care about yourself. And you need to care about yourself in order to figure out what the hell you want to do with your life.
[1:23:01] That's true. I never...
[1:23:02] Let me ask you this. When did your emotional state change your parents' minds about anything?
[1:23:16] Uh, nothing comes to mind.
[1:23:18] Right. So your emotions were useless with regards to your parents.
[1:23:25] Right.
[1:23:26] I mean, if, if, if I was driving to go and see a movie with my daughter and she was really upset about something, we just wouldn't go see the movie. We talk about it, right? If she's upset with me about something, we'll talk, I'll take criticism or whatever and see if I can improve. So, you know, my daughter's emotions, they have traction. They, they, they, they mean something. They have value. They're important, right?
[1:23:49] Yeah.
[1:23:50] So for whom has your emotions been important?
[1:23:59] I'm not sure. I mean, maybe some teachers would show, you know, a basic level of care when a kid is crying or whatever, but of course that's not really a replacement.
[1:24:13] I mean, I'm not talking about the... Okay, so your emotions have not been valuable. They have not affected anything. They've not really changed anything. People don't really care about whether you're happy or sad, at least in your family, right?
[1:24:30] Yeah.
[1:24:31] So the reason why you have trouble accessing your emotions is they're kind of pointless in your family. Does that make sense?
[1:24:41] Yeah.
[1:24:43] You know, like if, and in fact, they're painful, because if your emotions are ignored, then having them is really painful, because then you feel ignored. Whereas if you abandon your emotions, at least you don't feel ignored. You can just walk through life like a robot, right? But at least you're not being rejected or ignored. Like, I was really struck by you, like you're crying for five or six hours in the car with your mother, right?
[1:25:08] Right.
[1:25:09] And nothing gets fixed, and it's not even really referenced again, right? uh-huh so your emotions didn't get your mother to pull over and say oh my gosh you're really upset this is really bad because you kept saying to her take me to school right yeah you were crying you were desperate to get out of the car you were desperate to go to school and what happened, nothing she just kept driving your emotions are worse than meaningless they're painful, because they don't change anyone's behavior you just feel rejected and ignored, right and that's probably where some of the hatred came from, yeah definitely, If someone has a lot of food and you're starving and you say, hey, can I have some food? And they laugh and then start throwing the food on the ground and grinding it beneath their heel or they laugh and just keep eating more or they ignore you. That's really painful, right? It's frustrating. You'd be enraged.
[1:26:16] Yeah.
[1:26:17] Whereas if you just say, no, I'm not hungry. You can't hurt me. I'm not hungry.
[1:26:22] Right.
[1:26:23] I think that's what's happening with your emotions.
[1:26:27] Uh-huh. make it you make a good argument for sure that sounds uh it's very insightful.
[1:26:42] If all of your emotions lead to pain the only way to survive is to jettison the emotions, and i think this is why you have this flat affect and you know every time i ask you a question do you get you have this very distant kind of you know it's just very abstract and very distant And again, I really sympathize with this. It's not any kind of negative criticism or blame, but I think your emotions not only did not help you, but through your parents' indifference or even cruelty, your emotions hurt you. Like, I mean, to take an extreme example, if you were tied to a table and you were going to be tortured, wouldn't you want to turn off your emotions? I mean, we have that if we've got to get our teeth drilled, right? We want the Novocaine. We want, nobody wants to be operated on without anesthetic, right? and so if your interactions with your family are indifference and rejection, they don't care they're not invested, what good do your feelings do you? So, it's around denormalizing your emotions being useless.
[1:27:47] Right.
[1:27:48] Now, your emotions are useless around some people, and in fact, your emotions can be counterproductive around some people. Because they will use your needs for purposes of sadism. like in the in the novel 1984 the the hero or the the protagonist winston smith is afraid of rats he's desperately afraid of rats so what are they tortured with him with they put rats on his head, right so so his fears are now used against him in the same way that you know somebody who kidnaps you know a beloved husband well the wife wants the husband back, so the fact that she loves him is used against her so, I mean for all I know your mother was enjoying the fact that you were crying because she had power over you on that 5 or 6 hour car ride, but if your emotions are used against you if everything that you want and you desire is used to make you feel bad then you're going to have to cut off your emotions I mean you have to just to survive right.
[1:29:08] That makes sense.
[1:29:09] It's called dissociation, right? Which is when this happens to rape victims, like they float outside their body. It happens to sexual abuse victims. It's called dissociation. They just disconnect from their physicality because their physicality is being used against them. Their pain, their sense organs, their everything, fight or flight, everything's being used against you. So you just have to detach and dissociate.
[1:29:30] Right.
[1:29:31] And I think that happened to, it's not 100%, obviously it's never 100%, but... I think that happened because your feelings got you nowhere except to a place of pain and rejection. You reach out for your father, he ignores you. You reach out for your mother, she ignores you or she's cruel.
[1:29:54] Yeah.
[1:29:56] And so your emotions are worse than useless. They're actually dangerous. And therefore, you got to, you know, if a dog's chasing you, you jump the fence, right?
[1:30:07] Uh-huh.
[1:30:10] And I think because you've detached from your emotions in order to survive the cruelty and indifference and neglect of your childhood, it's tough to say, well, what do I want to do with my life? Because the key word there is want. You have to want. You have to have emotions. I want to do philosophy. I wake up, I yearn, and I burn to do philosophy. I love philosophy, right? But I have to have access to my feelings to know what I want. to do and other people's like your parents and other family members colossal indifference and your friends colossal indifference to you means that the want that's that's the price we pay, for dissociating and it's it's a necessary thing to do when you're a kid but now that you're an adult, you got to start reclaiming those feelings because how will you know what you want to do with your life. If you don't have any particular wants because your feelings are alienated.
[1:31:19] Yeah, I have a thing you say.
[1:31:21] Like, how would you know what you want to eat if you had no taste buds? Like, you know, enough COVID, right? Some people lost their sense of taste. Everything tasted like cardboard or something. It's like, well, what do you want to eat? I don't know. I don't have any preference because it all tastes the same. Sorry, go ahead.
[1:31:40] I was just going to say everything you say makes sense, I think, yeah.
[1:31:49] So I think now, as far as that goes, I mean, therapy is good. Nathaniel Brandon has a book called The Disowned Self, which I think is about dissociation. It's been a long time since I read it, but I think it's about dissociation. And that might be a good, but I think you need to, I think one way to break through that dissociation is to be honest and direct with your parents, particularly your father, who sounds severely, himself sounds severely dissociated. I just use this in an amateur way. I'm not obviously a psychologist or anything like that, but yeah, he sounds very distant from his own emotions. And because he's distanced from his own emotions and because he doesn't really care about his own emotions or he doesn't have access to his own emotions, he doesn't have access to caring for you.
[1:32:38] Right. Yeah. I'll bookmark that.
[1:32:42] I mean, somebody whose fingers are numb can't play piano very well because it's a touch.
[1:32:49] Yeah. Yeah.
[1:32:50] It's a touch thing. So I think that would be my suggestions that you just have to find a way to care about yourself. But caring about yourself is going to put you in a collision course with your parents.
[1:33:02] Because if your parents are implicitly saying, you're not really worth much to me like we can just get together i don't really care about your life but i enjoy jaw-burning about politics blah blah blah right so so if you say i care about myself now like i really have to care about myself and then other people treat you with indifference that's a collision right, yeah only one of those perspectives can sustain itself if you're worth something and people treat you like you're not worth anything then either they're right or you're right and if they're right which they're not right then you aren't then your belief that you're worth something is a false which is not true but if you're right that you are worth something which you are and other people treat you as if you're worthless or not interesting in your essence not just in convenient political talk then there's a collision uh-huh and i really think that's the price of being around people who don't really care about you is it's really almost impossible to start caring about yourself, hey, So does that make sense? I mean, I don't really have much to add outside of that.
[1:34:10] I think that makes sense, and it's definitely insightful.
[1:34:15] Yeah, and again, I would recommend the book, The Disowned Self, by Nathaniel Brandon. I can't remember if it has workbooks in it or not, but Nathaniel Brandon does have a bunch of workbooks, as does John Gray and other people. Gabor Maté is also a good guy to read about this. I think he's got a book called The Body Keeps Score, which has something to do with trauma and dissociation and so on. But again, I say this with massive and deep sympathy. Of course, you should have had people who love you and care about you and want the best for you and know you and are deeply invested and involved in how you can be successful and happy in life. I mean, I'm really sorry that you didn't have really much of any of that, but it certainly doesn't mean that you're doomed in any way, shape, or form, but it does mean, I think, that you're going to have to start to reclaim some of these feelings that you had to abandon in this significant emergency called the childhood.
[1:35:11] Right, yeah, well, I'll definitely read that book since you recommended it.
[1:35:18] Okay, well, is there anything else that you wanted to mention?
[1:35:22] Um, I guess there was like, I don't know how appropriate it is for your show, but a lot of the school stuff is just pretty crazy. I don't know.
[1:35:44] No, no, no, I get all of that. And I sort of made a conscious decision to not focus on the school stuff because I think the school stuff also added to, you know, especially if it's racial animus or the fact that you're a male, there's that kind of animus. I think that adds to the dissociation for sure, and we can't fix that, right? But what we can do is focus on how you can reclaim your feelings. And yeah, I mean, the school stuff is just terrible these days, especially for males, right? So I sympathize with all of that, and I really do want to make sure that you can work to reclaim your feelings from all of this stuff, of which the school stuff is certainly part of it. But I think you can't go and confront the teachers and change the system, but you can at least go and talk to your parents and be more direct and honest about that. And that's going to have an effect on the relationship that's direct.
[1:36:36] Not without seeming like a nut anyway.
[1:36:39] Right, right, right.
[1:36:44] Yeah, that's probably everything.
[1:36:47] Okay, well, listen, I hope you'll keep me posted. And again, I really do massively sympathize with what happened to you. I have every confidence that you can deal with it in a positive manner going forward and get the life that you want and once you start to unearth these feelings I mean some feelings will come up that feel good some feelings will come up that feel bad and all will be very helpful and through that process I think you'll discover your life's passions and then, it'll be clear where you need to go and I don't know what that is because I don't know what comes out with those feelings if that makes sense, alright brother well keep in touch I really appreciate the call today and thanks Emil.
[1:37:23] Yeah thank you it was insightful and yeah thank you for everything you do.
[1:37:30] You're very welcome bye bye.
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