0:05 - Getting Up to Speed
1:32 - Family Confrontations
5:20 - The Burden of Honesty
6:30 - Principles of Interaction
13:10 - Processing Past Punishments
18:32 - The Struggle with Parents
19:31 - The Nature of Sympathy
24:08 - Feelings of Neglect
30:04 - Confronting Doubts
33:59 - The Weight of Estrangement
37:39 - The Illusion of Redemption
39:21 - Connecting with Others
43:07 - Understanding Power Dynamics
49:12 - The Cycle of Abuse
52:56 - The Purpose of Rituals
57:27 - Breaking the Cycle
1:01:28 - Seeking Clarity
1:04:45 - The Mask of Charisma
1:17:53 - Navigating Status Hierarchies
1:38:54 - What Are You Trying to Get?
1:45:10 - Confronting the Past
1:50:11 - Role Play with Dad
1:56:33 - The Burden of Hypocrisy
2:15:09 - The Strength of Avoiding Conscience
2:22:54 - Sacrificing Relationships for Conscience
2:29:58 - Closing Thoughts and Future Steps
A caller shares his ongoing struggle with the emotional and psychological burdens derived from his tumultuous upbringing characterized by neglect, emotional abuse, and complex parental relationships. With previous conversations hinting at a lack of emotional engagement in his life, the caller expresses a desire to break free from a tendency toward isolation and inertia. He reflects on how he has settled into a safety zone in a mundane job and a superficial dating life, feeling detached from his passions and desires. This is exacerbated by a deep-rooted feeling that his childhood, particularly the forms of punishment enforced by his parents—namely neglect and emotional manipulation—has left him emotionally stunted and alone.
The caller prepares for an imminent confrontation with extended family, seeking resolution and deeper understanding of his family dynamics. He discusses an upcoming face-to-face meeting with both parents for the first time in a year, hoping to address these deeply embedded issues. Stefan probes further into the caller's theories regarding the significance of these confrontations, questioning whether approaching the very sources of his childhood trauma genuinely aligns with breaking free or merely perpetuates unhealthy patterns. The caller lands on the idea that exposing his parents' past actions might help him reclaim his childhood truths, even if it risks reigniting wounds.
Stefan challenges the caller's approach, questioning the validity of expecting changes in his parents, who have demonstrated consistent patterns over the years. The discussion touches on the idea that honesty should prevail, but is complicated by years of systemic denial enforced by the caller’s family. The caller expresses a need for authenticity both towards his parents and within himself, musings on the risk of having emotional needs that previously resulted in rejection.
The theme of self-identity emerges as both a backdrop and a central topic. The caller explicitly relates childhood experiences of being scrutinized and emotionally invalidated, now reflecting as an adult grappling with low self-worth and doubts about whether he can navigate parenthood differently. Stefan expresses disbelief at the dichotomy between how children should be treated versus how adults sometimes behave within familial relationships—wondering why self-accountability seems lost in the practice of parenting.
The conversation intensifies as the role play begins, simulating a confrontation with the caller's father. This exercise serves as a means to articulate and expose a lifetime of silenced grievances and manipulated narratives. As Stefan guides the caller through the necessary pushback against his father's past behaviors, revelations of hypocrisy in parenting emerge. The father figure, in imagined dialogue, maneuvers around accountability, attempting to deflect blame while the caller passionately holds him to task for the patterns of abuse he experienced.
Throughout the interaction, Stefan highlights the insidious nature of manipulation and emotional abuse, helping the caller see patterns in his father's responses that echo the psychological tactics used throughout his childhood—evading responsibility and instead projecting feelings of inadequacy onto his son. This back-and-forth is charged with emotion, spotlighting the caller's burgeoning confidence in expressing feelings that were long suppressed, though juxtaposed with the fear that he might rouse old cruelties.
As the dialogue continues, the caller comes to grips with his father's potential reactions—the possibility of aggressive denial and deflection. Stefan underscores the double standards in how behavioral norms are applied to children versus adults, urging the caller to maintain firm boundaries in seeking clarity about his past while remaining watchful of his father's predictable manipulative patterns.
The emotional density of the conversation crescendos, culminating in a deep exploration of the psychological ramifications of enduring years of emotional neglect. The broader landscape of human relationships is examined, marked by societal expectations vs. family obligations, the role of conscience in shaping behavior, and the cyclical nature of abuse.
Ultimately, while the caller emerges with a deeper understanding of his own emotions and the manipulation he faced, Stefan emphasizes the intrinsic human need for tangible relationships grounded in authenticity. The caller is nudged toward navigating his path with increased awareness, urging him to confront his fears and navigate his interactions with family members not through submission, but through informed assertiveness, creating a healthy foundation for future connections. This poignant exploration of personal history, familial obligations, and the quest for individual integrity speaks volumes about the intricate weave of human experience and emotional healing.
[0:00] Get me up to speed. We'll get to the dream and all of that, but get me up to speed on what's going on.
[0:05] Yeah. So the last couple of call-ins that I've had, one was last January, and then before that was June. You had made a note that I wasn't very emotional, that I felt like I was carrying this burden. And I believe that's reflected inside my life where I've sort of just fallen into a salary position where it's not necessarily that I'm trying to move up through the ranks or progress that much and it doesn't seem like I really have much of a dating life outside of like casual dating. It's like, all right, how do I break through into living a life that I'm passionate about instead of just a life that i feel safe all by myself in like being alone around my parents place was really the only time i could relax but that's not the that's not the way i'm going to succeed as an adult so i want to try to break through that belief and get to the emotions that were behind, behind the neglect and the uh the needing to hide in order to feel safe.
[1:26] Right okay and was there um something more imminent that was.
[1:32] Going on this.
[1:33] Like a decision regarding your family i have a vague memory of that sorry if i've.
[1:36] Missed yeah no worries no worries uh yeah uh essentially as soon as we get off this call I'm going to drive four hours to go visit extended family and confront them on what happened in the extended family. And then tomorrow I'm going to have more intimate conversations with both of my parents, who I haven't spoken to in person in over a year, to try to crack down on what happened, but also like without a doubt in my mind knowing these are the people that my parents are and there's no more space to be like oh but they could change because they were in therapy or oh they could change because they said sorry but in a vague way not in a specific apologies way right it feels like there's that one percent left in my mind that's like oh maybe they're redeemable Maybe this is Star Wars where I'll take the mask off of my father and he'll be a good guy, right? So trying to, going back to my parents' place for a day is trying to laser focus into that 1% and be like, is that even something reason can support, right? I think that's what's going to help me break out of this burden that I carry with myself.
[3:04] Okay, and not that I'm agreeing or disagreeing, of course, but what is your theory behind how this will help you with your burden?
[3:14] Right. Well, so the theory that I've been having behind it is because my parents' main form of punishment is neglect or like timeouts where I was isolated from everyone. Me isolating myself in the world is just repeating the same, same form of punishment my parents gave me because i i haven't taken on the new behavior which would be telling my parents the truth when it's safe to do so right because i i think when I went about defooing my parents, it was more of I lied to them about the circumstances of why I wanted to get away. Like I said, oh, I'm just vaguely sad. I'll message you when I feel like it, as opposed to you crazy people basically almost got me killed on multiple occasions and you did it wantonly. Right? So I'm thinking if I was able to speak that honestly, or if I could honestly tell myself, hey, yeah, my parents were dangerous, and if I could accept that, then I would break free of this burden, which is like self-preservation, because I haven't acted in any other way.
[4:42] It's like I haven't yet signaled to my brain that I'm no longer a child, is my thinking behind it.
[4:50] Okay and is going back to your how is going back to your parents with an emotional need signaling to your brain that you're no longer a child, like needing something from them when they were withholding a punitive in the past and again i'm i know this sounds like critical and i don't mean it that way i'm no no no like if you've got mean parents who denied your needs going back to them with more needs how i'm just trying to follow how that solves the childhood thing.
[5:21] Right. I think, I don't think the idea is necessarily what their reaction is going to be to the needs, but more that...
[5:32] No, no, that's not, I didn't ask about their reaction to the needs. Okay, sure. I'm just trying to understand the theory.
[5:41] Okay. The theory is... In order for me to live a virtuous life, I need to treat everyone in the same way. Like through the the same like set of beliefs which is you give people honesty until they prove that they can't handle well they they will try to attack you for that honesty and then you get separation is sort of my my thinking but i felt like i've been dishonest to my parents and i want to either prove to myself or prove to them i don't think it really matters in which direction But me being honest to everyone in my life is what would make this change, is what I'm thinking.
[6:31] Okay. So that's a lot of abstractions, and I'm always going to try and break them down to, at least for me, more comprehensible principles. Perfect. So you started off with, I want to treat everyone the same.
[6:44] Right.
[6:46] That's not possible. Some people are good, some people are evil, some people are nice, some people are cruel. So what do you mean by you would treat everyone the same?
[6:56] I suppose it's sort of like you've mentioned before, you have this principle that follows the tit-for-tat sort of rule, right? Where you treat someone as best as you can the first time, and then after that, you treat them with the same...
[7:13] Oh, so, sorry, do you mean the same principles or treat everyone the same?
[7:16] Yeah, I mean principles, yeah. You start at the same starting point with everyone, and then from there you adjust accordingly.
[7:24] Yes, but you're not starting at a starting point with your parents. How old are you?
[7:30] 28.
[7:31] 28, okay, so you've known them for almost 30 years.
[7:34] Yeah.
[7:35] So, I'm trying to follow this, what it means to say that you're taking something that is a new principle, right? You treat everyone I meet, right? But you met your parents almost 30 years ago.
[7:52] Yeah.
[7:55] So what more information are you looking for? Because that's a principle for new people, right?
[8:13] Right.
[8:14] When I meet someone, right, then I will treat them the best I can, and after that, I treat them as they treat me.
[8:20] Yeah.
[8:21] So if there's something I'm missing, I'm obviously happy to be corrected, but I'm trying to follow how a principle for new people is, I mean, literally applied to the people you've known the longest.
[8:36] That's certainly fair. I suppose it's not so much the tit-for-tat rule, but I've also heard a couple of podcasts.
[8:55] No, no, no, no. See, now, this is your parents, right? So I'm asking you, what is your principles by which you would interact with your parents? and you're trying to say, well, Stef, on a podcast, you said that, right?
[9:11] Sure.
[9:11] Now, you understand, that's trying to throw it onto me. Now, that's your parents because that's highly manipulative, right? Well, Stef, if you're not telling me to treat people the same, then you're being a hypocrite because you told people to treat, you told people to treat people the same. In one of your podcasts, you said this, and this is just the principle I'm following, so what's your problem?
[9:37] It hits me as an incredible uh incredibly novel novel perspective thank you stuff.
[9:44] Why is that a novel what do you mean my novel i'm just like it's just yeah i'm feeling this sort of like sort of slow manipulative estrogen voice closing around my nets here it's like well staff you i'm just doing what you told me to do now you have a problem with it what's the matter with you.
[9:59] I don't think i don't think i've ever had um.
[10:14] So, you know how like once is an accident, twice is not? So, when I said to you, tell me the principles behind seeing your parents, you said, well, Stef, you have this first time you meet someone rule, right? And I'm like, well, how the hell does that apply, right? Because you know these people literally the longest of anybody. I mean, you knew her before, you knew your mom before you were born, so to speak, right? So, that should give you pause, right? And say, oh, hang on, well, I just tried to apply a principle to staff that's completely the opposite of that principle, right?
[10:47] Right.
[10:47] Right, so if you were running some sort of credit rating agency, some sort of debt rating agency, credit score, right? And you said, well, if someone has no credit score, we'll put them in a neutral category. We don't know if they will or they won't pay off their debts, right?
[11:02] Yeah.
[11:02] And then you say, well, I've got these people who've been ripping off everyone for 30 years. Right? And I say, well, I'm going to give them a neutral credit score because, Stef, you said that people who don't have a credit history, you should give them a neutral credit score. And I'm like, but these people have 30 years of ripping people off.
[11:22] Yeah, that makes no sense at all.
[11:24] Right. So, hang on. So, the first time I'm like, okay, well, you know, maybe this is just an honest mistake, right? Honest mistake, right? But then what did you do again? Like if you just said, well, I just misapplied one of Stef's principles completely. So that's important to know, right? That you did that. And look, again, it's not some big issue or problem. I'm just pointing it out, right? But then what did you do? And this is why I said this is your parents. So, what did you do after I pointed out that you were completely misapplying a principle that you claimed to be dictating your behavior that came from me, right?
[12:07] Yeah.
[12:08] What's the next thing you did?
[12:10] Then I praised you for your observation on that.
[12:16] No.
[12:16] But didn't actually take accountability.
[12:18] No. No. What you did was you said, well, Stef, in a couple of other podcasts, there's this other principle that you completely gapped out from misapplying my principle completely, right? Because that's for new people, not people you've known for 28 years. And then you immediately moved to trying to quote another principle of mine, quote, against me, right?
[12:47] Gotcha. Yeah, that makes sense.
[12:53] I didn't... It's not any kind of criticism here. There's no criticism here. I'm just pointing out that using your own principles against you, or trying to, and just moving from one to the next without processing an error...
[13:11] ...is completely my parents, yeah.
[13:12] Well, is it? I mean, I don't know them, obviously, but...
[13:15] Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it certainly is. um far more strongly on my mom but my dad as well would use it from time to time.
[13:25] Okay so what would your mom say or do that would be sort of trying to use your principles against you or using, your dad's principles against him or or something like that.
[13:41] Yeah um, And my mom knows that I'm concerned about my mental health, and I don't think there's a single diagnosis she hasn't tried to throw at me, despite her having no credentials in the medical field.
[14:08] Oh, gosh.
[14:10] Yeah.
[14:14] So what did she call you? Yeah.
[14:18] She has speculated that I might be schizophrenic, that I might have ADHD, the schizophrenia because I had some insomnia in high school. ADHD because if it's not ADHD, it must be antisocial psychological disorder because I just won't connect with her. She's called me depressed or bipolar and, tried to put me into therapy when I was in high school in order to just get me drugged up and, it's probably the worst six months of my life because oh the I was on antidepressants towards the end of high school, it just felt like the whole world sort of grayed out, I feel an overwhelming sense of sadness coming up okay.
[15:29] Go ahead.
[15:49] My um mom once told me that when i was an infant i was somehow refusing her, her advances for affection and that she just couldn't connect to me you know i was some helpless helpless infant and she was the adult, and for whatever reason she praised my siblings for being able to connect better than I did as a kid and as an infant okay.
[16:46] I remember as a teenager I basically had to have thousands of photos of mundane things because my mom would question me on the most bizarre events like oh are you sure you went to the grocery store on Wednesday and then I would have to pull up these pictures of, the outside of the grocery store and then she would just get mad at me for taking all these photos and she's like oh you're just an obsessive because you take take all these photos of random shit that doesn't need to be taken pictures of. And it's like, the only reason I do that is as a reaction to you, mom.
[17:22] Right, right. Yeah, it's like you kind of have to because you're being gaslit. And then when you're defensive against being gaslit, then you're called obsessive, right? I mean, a massive no-win situation.
[17:40] Yeah. Absolutely. And then another time where my mom was telling me, oh, you seem so passive all the time. You need to be more assertive about your needs. And then the next day when I say, hey, mom, I could use more of an advance notice that you're going to be late picking me up. She's like, you're so goddamn aggressive. Why don't you just not say anything at all? There was never a win. There's never a negotiation to be had.
[18:23] Right. Right.
[18:33] How wretched. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.
[18:53] I always felt like it was easier to see the evil of my mother than my dad, though. My dad, for whatever reason, I always felt more sympathetic towards his victim stories. It was just my terrible mother and my terrible mom and terrible wife that ruined my life. And I wanted to feel the feelings that I need to feel towards him because I feel more numb around him.
[19:23] Go on.
[19:31] He's always been a bit of a spineless copycat, I suppose, where he'll just merge with the nearby female symbiotic life form and try to conform to everything that they say. He'll try to be, quote-unquote, the strong man, But he was the one who would come home and spank me and my siblings because my mom was upset. And she was like, wait until your father gets home and you would obediently follow her dictates on spanking us or... He was just a big bully all the time i remember um one time my parents were having guests over and, for whatever reason my dad was asking me to make him a salad when i was like five or six years old so i came out with like a plate of lettuce without much else added to it he screams at me, what the hell do you think I am, a bird?
[20:48] Huh. Right.
[20:50] It was so humiliating because it was in front of adults that I had respected and they just didn't do anything. Like adults that I thought were strong male figures from the church I was going to and then they just didn't say anything about my dad's actions. It left me feeling so alone.
[21:21] And how old were you at that time?
[21:25] I believe I was about six years old when that particular event happened.
[21:31] Okay. And tell me what your thoughts are that keep it, and I'm not, of course, there's no criticism or negativity about this, But what are your thoughts, do you think, that keep it fresh, keep it so fresh for you?
[21:50] I guess I am still alone today.
[21:54] Well, but do you believe that you're alone because of something like that or because of that?
[22:21] I suppose it's sort of hard to think about what what any sort of alternative would be like, because i was homeschooled for a long time and then well the the homeschooling was just me being put in front of a workbook all my siblings were playing in other rooms so it was basically just, sorry were they not come.
[22:42] Schooled as well were they not put in front of books.
[22:45] They they were but they were only taught one at a time by my mom so when they weren't being like well not really taught but like supervised by my mom they're allowed to wander elsewhere but they weren't allowed to come in to distract.
[23:00] Okay so everyone were you sort of were you specifically mistreated.
[23:12] It felt it certainly seemed like it at the time seemed like my brothers were getting more more investment, okay, and in what way.
[23:27] Were they getting more not disagreeing but in what way were you getting were they getting more investment.
[23:33] My uh older brother was put into an art school soon after we were starting to homeschool so he actually had friends that he could reference and then my younger brother was uh the youngest out of the three of us and my mom seemed to connect with him more and would teach him more hands-on.
[24:03] So you felt that you were, uh, you feel that you were treated worse than your siblings.
[24:07] Yeah.
[24:09] Okay. And why do you think that was the case?
[24:29] I think my parents saw me as sort of the problem child, like the child that wouldn't emotionally connect to their manipulations, and I would be highly defiant. Whereas my siblings would comply relatively quickly, and they were subjected to my parents' punishments.
[24:54] And how were they punished?
[24:58] They were essentially spanked until they submitted or, they were separated out into their bedrooms and told that they weren't allowed to come out but I would, I would talk back more I would call out my parents more like what you're doing isn't right, and then they would just become more more vicious.
[25:27] Right. Okay. So, I'm not sure why you're sad about this. You sound very sad.
[25:36] I do feel very sad. And it's... I don't... I think it's... I can... If I feel bad about myself, I don't have to feel angry with my parents.
[25:53] I don't follow... Sorry, you feel bad about yourself you don't have to feel angry about your parents i'm sorry i don't follow that.
[25:59] Right um it's like uh i'm feeling oh i was such a foolish child to confront my parents as often as i did.
[26:14] A foolish child wow yeah why are you such an asshole to yourself.
[26:29] I don't know.
[26:33] Like that's saying that you're foolish for resisting evil with all the mighty strength in your young frame, to call that foolish is very harsh so help me understand that, oh are we still on.
[27:01] Yeah we're still on.
[27:03] Okay sorry i just got an odd thank you.
[27:05] Yep no worries, I think it's what was told to me by my parents.
[27:29] Yeah, no, I get that.
[27:30] I was foolish, right?
[27:31] I get that they're upset about it.
[27:33] But why do I still hold that? Sorry, can you hear me? Right. Yeah, I can hear you.
[27:37] Okay, sorry. If I start talking, if we're both talking over each other, it gets a bit confusing. So I can understand why your parents would feel that. But i'm i'm not sure i understand why you you feel that, i mean i get that if the cop has arrested the criminal the criminal that's really angry at the cop right right and you know the criminal is going to call the cop an a-hole or just get really mad and and and and so on right and he's going to get into prison and he's going to say oh that cop was a total jerk and i can't believe it and i'm totally in like he's gonna i mean the The criminal is going to get upset at the cop. Yeah, I get that. I get that. But why would the cop say, well, I'm sure the criminal is right. I am an a-hole. I'm so sad I arrested the criminal. I'm just a terrible guy, and I have to be alone.
[28:40] And, I I, I think it's I'm trying to I give my parents this out of they have, either these mental illnesses or this past there's part of me that doesn't believe that but I think that's where that comes from is I must have been foolish because I was expecting, mentally ill people well not mentally ill people but the excuse that oh they might have been mentally ill people, trying to resist them but I know that they're not the test of would they do that in front of cops or would they do that out in public and no they would not they would not do that they had a choice.
[29:41] So it's your theory that you're that they're actually evildoers and that you were trying to give them an out.
[29:48] That sounds right i'm.
[29:55] Not trying to catch you i'm just trying to make sure.
[29:56] I understand.
[29:57] So your theory is that your parents are evildoers but you were trying to pretend that they weren't.
[30:02] Yeah okay.
[30:04] So how does seeing them this weekend not fit into that theory.
[30:27] I suppose it does fall into this theory of trying to give them an out still. So why the hell do I want to go out there?
[30:40] Well, I don't know. And again, I don't know whether you should or shouldn't, but I think it's really important to know what your motives are or what the underlying beliefs are, because it's a pretty momentous decision, right?
[30:53] Absolutely. I wouldn't have chosen to do that if it felt like there was any other way to do it.
[31:00] Okay any other way to do what, that's the question any other way to do what, what are you trying to do.
[31:14] Trying to stop stop dragging crappy people into my life that I then try to get rid.
[31:21] Of as an adult But the only way to not have crappy people in your life is to stop feeling that you yourself are crappy. And if you were a foolish child who should have been wise like your siblings, then you think of yourself as kind of crappy, as unwise.
[31:45] Yeah. Yes, that makes sense.
[31:52] So how does thinking of yourself as unwise and foolish, how does that get good people into your life? Do you think that good, high quality people want to be around people who think of themselves as unwise and foolish for valiantly resisting evildoers?
[32:13] No I don't think so, I don't think I would want people who claim to be foolish or unwise in my life either.
[32:38] Okay, so I'm still trying to sort of follow then what it is that you're aiming or attempting to achieve this weekend. And again, I'm wide open to the possibility and the argument that this is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but I just don't see it yet, and that could be entirely my limitation.
[33:00] Right.
[33:05] Because if you haven't talked to your parents for a year, but you still believe them in a way, then you aren't going to be out of the isolation.
[33:31] I suppose that that comes to what I want from this weekend is I want to confront them to the point where they escalate, where I no longer have doubts about who they were, who the extended family were, and the role of my suffering.
[34:00] Okay. And what are your doubts? And again, not disagreeing with you, but what are your doubts regarding that?
[34:24] Wow i was just hit with a wall of fog i know i know the question that you asked, and let me think about it for a second, I feel somewhat divided on this, where it's...
[35:13] Well, we all do. I mean, when it comes to parents, for sure. I mean, everybody feels divided. But yeah, go ahead.
[35:19] Just this... I suppose it sort of started when my therapist was asking if I was estranged from my parents. And there was a part of myself that was like, oh, I suppose we might be estranged.
[35:36] I really just like that word, estranged. not that it's totally appropriate for you to use it of course because sadly it's it's how things are described but estranged sounds like there's something strange about it you're strangers and there's something like uh there's an at faultness to it that's usually on the part of the kids like it's all just terrible overall i mean if if you if you were involuntarily married in some third world culture to an abusive guy and then you fled him, would people say, are you estranged from your husband?
[36:11] Right.
[36:13] No, I fled. I fled of use I never chose. Did you... You escaped, right? You escaped abuse and... Anyway, the word estranged, it is... It's... It's a negative connotation word that I, and again, you're totally right to use it. Of course, it makes total sense. I just wanted to sort of point out that it is a prejudicial word that's not accidental in how it's used. And again, not regarding you, but yeah, I just wanted to sort of put that out by the by.
[36:52] Yeah, no, I definitely felt...
[36:54] Oh, you escaped your kidnappers? Are you estranged from your kidnappers?
[36:59] Yeah i certainly felt bitterness when my therapist brought it up it's like well i mean i guess that's technically the term i would use to random people on the street but it's not how i would have described it right.
[37:13] Right okay but anyway so when you said your therapist asked you if you're estranged right.
[37:19] Yeah there was a part of me that felt, felt like, well, I mean, maybe I just haven't tried hard enough to get through to them.
[37:40] And it certainly feels like this Christian upbringing of, everyone has a redeemable soul is haunting me into my age of atheism, that's super abstract yeah, can you ask me uh another question maybe to reframe it because it seems like it's not working in this this format.
[38:15] I'm trying again i'm sort of trying to figure out the heaviness you know can you ask me another question to refer like there's just this this underwater heaviness and i i remember this of course from previous conversations, because you have to sort of say if you want as i'm sure you do you know like energetic quality enthusiastic people in your life, how do you think that they experience you when you talk in this kind of way?
[38:53] I think they would find me uninteresting, not compelling, that I don't have deep desires or passions in life.
[39:07] So they would experience you, I think, as self-sensorious. So when people are in spontaneous conversation and they have a good relationship with themselves, and again, this is nothing to fault you in any way, right? I'm just sort of pointing it out.
[39:22] Then they can speak in a sort of extemporaneous and spontaneous fashion and so on. But you have sort of the feel of somebody who's kind of down and on the witness stand and facing perjury if they get one thing wrong. Because, you know, ask a question and there are these long pauses, and then, you know, well, there's very careful, considered responses, and so on, right?
[39:48] Right.
[39:49] And so, that's, in general, people who are more spontaneous in their conversation do not feel that they're under threat. But i think that for you there's a lot of restraint because i think you experience the world and of course it makes perfect sense given your upbringing but you experience the world as threatening and you have to get things right and you have to get things precise, and if you put one foot wrong you're toast right.
[40:21] Right no that makes sense and that that feels Yes. It feels connecting for you to say that.
[40:36] Okay, so tell me a little bit about the sort of verbal or interrogatory threats that you were under as a kid, like in that your parents would cross-examine you and try to get you, and then if they got you, they would attack you, or was it something like that or something else?
[40:56] Yeah, so my... My younger brother and I would constantly get into conflicts around the house.
[41:06] Sorry, your parents would? Or you and your parents?
[41:08] My younger brother and I would get into these conflicts. And it would feel like twice a week we would be set down and tried by the Inquisition, where my parents would try to find any fault in my actions because as the older sibling, I should have known better and, And then I would, I suppose as I was mentioning earlier, basically become my own lawyer and try to defend my actions and my underbrother being an annoying little brat who's trying to get under my skin or that I shouldn't be punished in the way that my parents were suggesting.
[42:01] And what would happen if you got something wrong let's say that you were just caught for whatever you contradicted yourself or something like that yeah.
[42:19] I think sometimes there'd be threats of...
[42:22] Sorry, so there's the pause there, right? And again, not being critical, I'm just... So when there's this pause, I don't know if you can't remember. So now ask, what would happen if you get something wrong in these interrogation sessions, right? So that second or two pause, I don't know what that pause is. And again, it's not a critical thing. I'm genuinely curious. What is, do you not remember? Do you remember, but you have to figure out how to phrase it? Do you think if you get something wrong with me, I'm going to yell at you or get mad at you or punish you? Like, I'm trying to understand what that pause is. Like, you know, if somebody were to say to me, hey, what's your middle name? I'm like, hmm.
[43:07] Right, right.
[43:08] It's, it's, it's Basil, right? I mean, wouldn't that be a kind of like, what's your middle name? It's Basil, right?
[43:17] Right.
[43:18] So, and again, I'm not, it's nothing to do with criticism. I'm genuinely curious. Like, what is that pause? Like, what would happen if, you got something wrong, you were caught when your parents were interrogating you, what would happen? I mean, do you know what the answer is and you're trying to figure out how to phrase it or check for it or something like that? What's the pause?
[43:45] Right. As opposed to to answer the the couple of parts that you brought up there i do think my conversations with you i end up being more censorious than i am in general with people well because.
[43:58] I'm asking you more important questions right i'm asking.
[44:02] You more sensitive.
[44:02] Questions than most people would ask right.
[44:04] Yeah right and the wars, The punishments that they would also give me for getting a step wrong is that it would justify the punishments that they would want to give me anyway. So the threatening to wash my mouth out with soap for lying or putting me in my room for what felt like more than an hour on each occasion, even when I was six or seven years old. Or spanking me and screaming at me that this isn't the end of the world, stop crying.
[44:49] Great. Okay, so you would get verbal abuse, physical abuse, you know, obviously all kinds of terrible stuff, right?
[45:01] Yeah.
[45:02] Okay. So the pause was what, because i mean it sounds like the answer was available to you it was in your mind right, like if somebody were to say to me Stef what were you doing four thursdays ago right right i'd be like uh i don't know probably podcasting and hanging out with my family like I don't know going to the gym right so, somebody would have asked me that and they said in detail right I'd be like oh like there would be pauses because I wouldn't have the answer on the tip of my tongue.
[45:45] Yeah, sorry I was burping not trying to just.
[45:53] Be silent so when I say what would happen if your parents would catch you right then And what is the pause?
[46:14] Well, there's the pause again.
[46:17] No, no, but that makes sense. Because now I'm asking for causality and motivation, right? If I said to you, or if you said to me, Stef, where were you born? I was like, hmm. You know, and there was this little long pause, it'd be like, do you not know where you were born?
[46:40] Okay.
[46:42] Or is there something, is there some problem? Is there something you have to be defended about, or is there a threat? You know, if you're on the witness stand being cross-examined, and if you get one thing wrong, I mean, you could get in serious, like you could, I don't know, jail, perjury, or whatever, or some intelligence agency is cross-examining you, and right, then you're under serious threat, and you're going to have a lot of pauses, because you've got to think through all of the possibilities of punishment or problems that's going to arise, if that makes sense.
[47:20] Yeah. I get this sense that I'm trying to avoid the possibility of humiliation or isolation.
[47:33] Okay. Okay, so if I say what happened if your parents caught you when they were interrogating you, caught you in some contradiction or some lie, I mean, I think the answer would be, oh, man, they'd yell at me, they'd hit me, they'd ostracize me, wash my mouth out in my soap, they'd lock me in my room. Those were the things that I remember you saying, if that makes sense, right?
[47:52] Yeah.
[47:53] Okay, so then the question is, I mean, when I asked you the question of basically how were you punished if your parents caught you in some contradiction or lie, but under threat, right?
[48:03] Right.
[48:04] So when I asked you the question, I assumed that you knew the answer. It wasn't like, what did they do? I have no idea. I assume that wasn't the case, right?
[48:15] Yeah, I suppose what it was was they were going to give me those punishments anyway. Was there any extra punishment on top of those punishments that they would give me if I was somehow caught out lying?
[48:34] Right. I.
[48:35] Don't know if there was like they would spank me more sure uh they.
[48:45] But you believe and i'm not just sorry just just for the sake of efficiency you believed that there was a possibility that you could minimize the punishment yeah right and whether that whether there was or there wasn't you kind of have to believe that there is otherwise you feel completely helpless right now if you were to say to your parents who started interrogating you, look, mom, dad, it doesn't matter what I say. You're going to punish me anyway. Just let's skip the stupid ritual.
[49:12] Just punish me. Get it over with. I'm not going to participate in this and pretend that there's anything I can do or say. That's going to change the outcome. So just, you know, wail on me, get the soap, do what you want, yell at me. Just let's not waste time with this nonsense about what I say or don't say. And again, I'm not saying you should have done that as a kid.
[49:31] Right.
[49:31] But if you did something like that, what would happen?
[49:38] Immediately jumps out to me that that that could have incurred death.
[49:43] Yes they.
[49:44] Could have beaten me to the point where i would not have recovered.
[49:48] Right so abusers need their rituals, i mean i remember when i was in theater school and i was doing a scene from, an old david mammoth play and there were these alcoholics in the scene right and i was just getting the drink and doing the scene. And I remember my teacher interrupted me and said, what are you doing? And I said, well, I'm an alcoholic, so I'm pouring the drink and I'm, talking, Hurley Burley, I think was the name of the play. And I'm getting the drink and I'm doing the scene and he's like no no no it's not he says trust me i was an alcoholic for many years, you don't when you're an alcoholic you don't just get a drink, right i mean it's a whole ritual right you've got to have just the right glass you've got to have the right number of ice cubes you've got to pour it just right you've got like it's not just about getting alcohol into your body there's a whole ritual around it and honestly if you're an alcoholic, you're probably paying at least as much attention to the ritual as you are to the conversation. Or, it could even be the case that the conversation is just a mere distraction from the ritual.
[51:12] Right.
[51:13] And I just remember being quite struck by that.
[51:19] No, that's certainly fair.
[51:21] So, for your parents, there was a whole series of rituals that they had to go through so that they would hide their own corruption from themselves, I assume. Yeah. So they couldn't just punish you. They had to have an excuse. They had to have a reason. Right? So, I mean, people who sort of claim to care about all of these isms and phobias and, you know, all of this, oh, politically correct stuff. No, no, no. They've just invented a whole bunch of excuses by which they get to bully people, but feel like the good guys yeah you know i mean the punch a nazi thing is like hey guess what everyone's a nazi i get to punch everyone and so it is sort of this this is rampaging abuse system that is looking for some sort of justification so the abuse is hidden from the individual himself, and i mean i remember this when i was a kid my my mother would have had a bad day been a bad mood or something like that. And what would happen is she would come home and she would stalk around her little apartment just looking for something. Looking for something to get mad about.
[52:38] Yeah.
[52:40] And, I mean, I was, you know, I was perfectly aware that there was always something that she could get mad about, right? There was always something, you know, like, the big one for me that I remember clearly was a flashlight.
[52:56] Yeah, yeah.
[52:57] Right? I lost the flashlight. And... God forbid, my mother needed the flashlight. Because then it would... So she would be looking for stuff. Is there dust here? She'd go into my room. Are there any cups in the room? Is there anything misplaced? And so she couldn't just start screaming at us, right? Or hitting us, right? There had to be some sort of plausible excuse as to why these things are occurring. And a lot of stuff that goes on in the world is a whole bunch of ideological constructs that are designed to give people quote, justifications for their hatreds.
[53:48] And so, yeah, so it doesn't have anything to do with any sort of objective morals, but it is kind of a humiliation ritual because part of the punishment metric is power. I mean, the central part of the punishment interaction is power. And if you're not begging to not be punished or striving to not be punished, the power doesn't taste nearly as good. Right? So, I mean, you've seen a bunch of cliched scenes in movies where, you know, the bad guy is basically saying to the good guy, beg for your life beg for your life and maybe i'll give it to you and the good guy says what.
[54:38] Says hell no man.
[54:40] I'm not begging for nothing or if they really want to anger let's say the widow right the widow of the good guy who got killed or she thinks got killed right then they always say oh he died on his knees crying and begging for his life and they get a special kind of sick sadistic thrill out of the begging for less punishment begging to stop begging for mercy because being in the position to grant or deny mercy, is one of the great essences of power, to have people beg is a deep thrill for the sadistic aspects of the personality.
[55:43] Felt a tinge of anger there, thinking about how it was the ritual that was worse than the spanking itself.
[55:54] Yeah, the spanking is there not to hurt you. The spanking is there to get you to beg not to be spanked. And I can prove it to you if you like, and it'll just take a minute or two.
[56:18] Yeah, yeah.
[56:19] So if you look at sadism, and I'm not calling your parents sadistic, because I don't know enough about the details, but I'm just saying it's a general principle, right? I mean, I'll follow your lead on that. You know them obviously infinitely better than I do. So if you think of sadism as like an organism, you know, like the meme thing, like it's a concept that wants to replicate, right? Well if sadism is just about say beating kids right if sadism is just about beating kids then beating kids hurts if you just randomly beat kids then it hurts but then they escape, and the sadism doesn't replicate, because they're just happy to like if you put your hand in a fire and you pull your hand out but then the last thing you want to do is put your hand in a fire again because it bloody well hurts, right? So the behavior doesn't replicate. So the question is, how does sadism get to replicate itself? How does sadism implant into the mind of the child? Well, it has to be not about the pain, but about the humiliation.
[57:27] Yeah.
[57:28] Because the pain we avoid, but the humiliation, in order to avoid the pain, we have to internally humiliate. In other words, we have to beg and plead or manipulate or lie or obfuscate in order to minimize our punishment. And that humiliation, that begging for less punishment, that sticks and that outlives or outlasts the physical punishment. And then because we feel bad for our submission or subjugation or our humiliation, the only way we can generally get relief when we get older most people not you and i fortunately but most people how do they deal with their feelings of submission and humiliation when they get older they.
[58:24] Take out that same power on people they have power over.
[58:27] Yeah they do it to others yeah they do it to others, So, I mean, your life is a lot of trying to prevent the recycling or the copy-paste of that kind of cruelty.
[58:50] Yeah. I notice that the little twinge of anger from earlier is now sort of just a low-roaring fire. It feels nice.
[59:04] Right. It will warm your heart, right?
[59:07] Mm-hmm.
[59:11] So, and the way, like why, so Quentin, why are you isolated? So the way that we bring cruel people into our lives, is to act in a way that signals that we will submit, that we are afraid. So for instance if you are a lion and you are looking at a herd of zebras and one of them is limping who do you attack.
[59:43] After the limper yeah.
[59:45] Well why that's cruel, because it's the easiest to catch right it's.
[59:52] The lowest calories.
[59:53] It's yeah it's the fewest calories to catch the lowest risk to catch and the highest probability of catching right that's why they go for the young, the old, the sick the wounded, whatever, right? So if you're a predator weakness, triggers attack, so if you're out in the world and you're tentative and nervous and trying to avoid punishment and trying to get things just right then you are treating everyone as an abuser.
[1:00:31] Right.
[1:00:32] Like I'm 150% on your side. I ask you a question and I get this long pause because you're like, okay, so what can I say that's going to prevent attack? I mean, it's a habit, right?
[1:00:47] Yeah.
[1:00:50] Because if you go out into the world with this kind of hesitation and these pauses and this kind of hypnotic kind of low, empty way of talking, then you're signaling that you view people as abusers as a whole. And because you view people as abusers as a whole, your only chance to avoid abuse is to be isolated.
[1:01:20] Yeah.
[1:01:22] Because if everyone's an abuser, you're better off alone.
[1:01:26] Right. What's the point?
[1:01:28] Well, the point is to avoid pain. This is why the gazelles don't run with the lions, because the lions are predators, and they won't change their nature.
[1:01:52] That's that's very clarifying.
[1:01:55] So you pause to signal to people that you perceive that everyone is an abuser and not even until proven otherwise right right because you and i have had like two you said two conversations before right yeah i mean have i ever been abusive towards you no never right but you're still treating me as if I'm a potential abuser with these long-considered pauses so that I don't escalate and punish you for catching you out on something.
[1:02:31] I'm sorry go ahead go ahead I was a saying I've seen so many so many Collins and it's like oh I'd hate to be the guy that repeats the all it's my parents past causation explanation or people that say oh I don't know it's a trigger response it's like oh that feels like it would be so humiliating to have that in a call in. But it's, I don't know.
[1:03:07] Okay. So, I mean, that's a very interesting thing that you're saying. And I don't want to interrupt if you're in the middle of your thought.
[1:03:13] No, go ahead.
[1:03:15] Well, so you're like, oh my gosh, it would be the worst thing if I fell into a kind of trick. And that's kind of funny in a way, because you fell into the trick of, well, Stef, hey man, I'm just doing what you told me to. If you have a problem with that, that's on you. Right right as if as if even if i said something that was wrong or bad it would still be your responsibility for following it right yeah right so that's why i was like yeah your parents are your parents are in the convo the call is coming from inside the house so you're like oh it'd be so embarrassing to make that kind of error right so what that means is that you have to not be honest. And that's what the pauses are all about. The pauses are, in general, I'm preparing to lie my ass off. I can't put a foot wrong. I can't say something wrong. Therefore, I can't spontaneously tell you what I'm thinking and feeling. I have to run it through the humiliation check, if that makes sense.
[1:04:17] Yeah. Such a heavy filter to have to process through.
[1:04:23] Well, and it's saying that, Stef, you're not going to get any spontaneous thoughts and feelings from me. Everything's going to be filtered. We can't actually meet. It's sort of like when you, what was it, Hayley Welsh, the hawk to a girl, did something which seems a bit sketchy with regards to her meme coin, right?
[1:04:45] Right.
[1:04:46] And she posted something after she said, oh, I'm going to bed. And then two weeks later, she pops up and she posts something. And it doesn't really matter what the content was. But the point is that everybody underneath was like, yep, a lawyer has vetted this, right?
[1:05:02] Right.
[1:05:03] Because she, you know, doesn't want to get in. significant trouble for whatever sketchy stuff might have happened with the meme coin and i don't know whether sketchy stuff did it didn't happen but everybody was like they identified lawyer speak pretty clearly it's.
[1:05:18] Like i do not recall having sexual relations with that woman sort of thing right it's.
[1:05:24] Like okay.
[1:05:25] Yeah you had a whole brainstorming session for a day or two to come up with that line right.
[1:05:30] Depends what the definition of is is gosh and the harm that was done to society as a whole by Bill Clinton redefining oral sex as not sex. I mean, that's of course it's sex. So, I mean, you only have to know that is that was Hillary bothered by it, right? To the point where what, he had to end up bombing Kosovo to get back into her pants or something? Anyway, so when you have those kinds of pauses, you're saying, I can't get anything wrong, which means I can't be honest. Now, with your parents, and again, massive bottomless sympathy, when I said, if you just said, look, can we just, you guys are in a bad mood, you want to beat someone, let's just skip this nonsense, skip the ritual, and, you know, just hit me. Let's just get it over with, right?
[1:06:26] Yeah.
[1:06:27] Then your feeling was that you could get killed.
[1:06:33] Yeah, absolutely.
[1:06:34] And I'm certainly not disagreeing with any of that, right? Because all parental violence is based on escalation. I mean, they escalate until you comply often or die, right?
[1:06:53] Yeah.
[1:06:53] Because, you know, if they spank you, and then later when they're taking a nap, you hit them with a rolling pin, right? They're just going to escalate, right?
[1:07:05] Right.
[1:07:05] They're not going to say, well, I'm way bigger than you, and I hit you hard. Now you hit me with a rolling pin while I'm sleeping. Again, I'm not recommending anybody do this, but I'm just saying that the logic would be, you know, fair, right? I mean, if you're in a fistfight, and you punch the guy, and he punches you back, you don't get to say, that's not fair.
[1:07:26] Right, right.
[1:07:27] Right? I mean, that's the trading of blows is the essence of boxing, right? But if you, and I remember a friend of mine had, you know, one of these typically sort of rough Scottish grandmothers, and she would want to hit him with something. And as soon as he got, I don't know, to be about, she was like really old. And when he got to be at a seven or eight, he was able to dodge her. He would run away, right? She'd come at him with a slipper to hit him or something, and he'd just run away, right? Yeah. And then later he was taking a nap, and she hit him on the head with a metal tea tray. And she leaned over him, and she was like, well, you can run, but you've got to sleep sometime.
[1:08:21] Oh, man. It's terrifying.
[1:08:25] Well, and of course, he was talking about this kind of stuff with the sort of lunatic ha-ha stuff, right? Which I can understand as a defense and all that, right? But yeah there is I mean if you if you start hitting back, what happens? well the escalation really occurs and if you take away their justification, and you say I'm not playing this game I'm not this game is stupid I'm not playing this game of oh you did something wrong.
[1:09:03] And And just, you know, do your stupid punishment and just get it over with, right? Then they would really escalate because they need to go through this whole ritual. And if they don't get to go through this whole ritual, which is their self-justification, then they, you're basically saying that there's nothing to do with justice here. You just need an excuse to hit me. Right and everyone knows the you know the guy who gets yelled at by his boss right yells at his wife the wife yells at the kid and the kid kicks the cat right i mean everybody knows that kind of, and that's just passing it down but you can't just go and you can't just get home and just say you can't even be honest and say i had a bad day with my boss so i'm gonna i'm gonna hit you oh wife of mine right you have to come home and the food has to be the wrong temperature or Or there has to be, you trip over some shoes she left in the hallway, right? Or there's some laundry that's been unfolded for two days, you know? This place is goddamn pigsty. Why can't you ever clean that? You know, like, whatever, right? Like, you have to discharge your venom in the fantasy of justice.
[1:10:23] Yeah, and to have the illusion.
[1:10:26] Humiliation is even more, the purpose of the punishment, the purpose of the physical punishment is to elicit the humiliation.
[1:10:36] Yeah.
[1:10:36] Because you're going to run out of strength, but you're never going to run out of authority. Right so if you can if the purpose is the humiliation and, the method is the physical punishment the end goal is the humiliation then even when your parents get old and you are, you know twice their weight and five times as strong they can still have, they can still have the humiliation. They can still get the cruelty fruit, so to speak. Because they can still enjoy the fruits of their prior punishments by watching you be hesitant and nervous around them. Thus continuing to give them their power even when they no longer, have the strength to punish physically. Does this sort of make sense?
[1:11:48] Yeah, it makes sense.
[1:11:55] So, I think the purpose of the pause is to signal submission. But also resentment and a certain kind of aggression too, because if you are pausing, to signal a kind of submission, then it's passive-aggressive because you're indicating that the person you're talking to, that you view them as an abuser. And also of course since sadism wants to spread then what happens is by signaling to other, sadists that you are already broken in already domesticated and that they can come and get and feed off the humiliation aura around you, that's how it signals, right?
[1:12:54] Yeah. I feel myself going into filtering mode again because I'm tempted to ask, well, what do I do with this stuff? But knowing that that would just be another thing to call out to just be in the emotions.
[1:13:13] Right.
[1:13:17] To just... Sit in the anger for a bit.
[1:13:32] Well, in your personal life, maybe a professional too, but let's just start with personal life. In your personal life, have you come across good, honorable, nice, wise people? I mean, reasonably so, right? I mean, nobody's perfect, right? But have you come across people who you would consider to be positive?
[1:13:58] There's a number of people in the free domain community that i've come across that are that match that description and it feels like i just i can't seem to connect connect with them, outside of that though the one one person that i recently have gotten into contact to outside of the community is pretty good. He does have that sort of sense of being submissive towards, authority figures still. I think his heart is in the right place, though. He doesn't go out and be sadistic towards people.
[1:14:43] Right.
[1:14:47] So there's one person, and he's only been around for a couple of months. But before that it was essentially like no one was there right okay.
[1:15:04] Right, okay. And in your, I wish, more daily life?
[1:15:11] Was that daily life?
[1:15:13] Yeah.
[1:15:16] I might see just that one friend once a week, and outside of that, I have a remote job. So the only time I really see people is when I go to the gym, and most people aren't that talkative when they're at the gym.
[1:15:32] Right, right. Okay and what efforts if any are you making to chat with people.
[1:15:53] Uh i mean i i go out to dances from time to time i go out to bingo events karaoke events and I'll strike up conversations with people, but it feels like I have this mask of charisma on where nothing about my true feelings or true self actually come out through it.
[1:16:16] What would you mean by what would be your true self or your true feeling?
[1:16:29] I suppose the sort of the opposite of the question that you asked where I was going to describe how the charisma comes across, the charisma sort of hides any sort of sense that, I have a nervousness about approaching people okay so your.
[1:16:55] Nervousness about approaching people is based on what judgment or thought.
[1:17:08] Because it's sort of these two different beliefs of I'm either too good for them or I'm not worthy of being around them.
[1:17:17] Okay.
[1:17:19] That's sort of just a vicious.
[1:17:20] So that's a hierarchy. That's a dominance hierarchy sense, right?
[1:17:25] Yeah.
[1:17:27] So either, in a sense, either you bully them by being too good for them, even if it's just in your mind, or they're going to bully you as being not good enough for them.
[1:17:39] Yeah okay, so you're.
[1:17:47] Looking for where you stand in terms of status is that right.
[1:17:54] It is pretty prominent and i think that's why i get such a strange feeling around freedom mainers is, I have no clue what their I guess quote unquote status is it's almost like they're not even part of the status hierarchy at all yeah.
[1:18:16] No I get that or in a sense the status status the status is honesty yeah, right yeah that's that's tough right If the status is honesty, what are you supposed to do?
[1:18:33] Be honest. Right.
[1:18:45] But if honesty leads to low status or honesty, well, honesty leads to death, if I understand this correctly, in your historical survival mechanism, right? If you're honest with your parents, right? I mean, let me ask you this. So when you were a kid, you had to have the fantasy that you could minimize your punishment or reduce your punishment, right?
[1:19:06] Right.
[1:19:06] And you could, but it's a debt. It's a form of debt. Sorry, I'm being unclear. So what I mean by that is you can reduce your need to work at the moment by borrowing money.
[1:19:21] Yeah.
[1:19:21] But then that just increases the amount of work you have to do in the future, right? Because you've got to pay your bills plus the debt plus the interest, right?
[1:19:30] Yeah.
[1:19:31] Okay. So it is true that you can reduce your punishment in the moment with your parents. I believe that that's true. But how do you do it? How did you reduce your punishment when you were a kid? What did you have to do.
[1:20:04] For some reason, my brain was like, oh, that answer's too obvious, obviously. And Stef is asking something.
[1:20:10] Yeah, throw that shit aside. Let's just talk, right?
[1:20:13] It was about taking on this belief that I'm worth humiliating as part of my identity.
[1:20:21] Right. Right.
[1:20:25] But the filter was humiliating me by thinking that I was somehow failing.
[1:20:29] Right. So, the way that you reduce punishment is you agree with the cause of the punishment.
[1:20:41] Right.
[1:20:43] Now, if you agree with the cause of the punishment, then you reduce the punishment. I'll sort of give you an example, right? So let's say that you're carrying a tray full of glasses and your parents left some slippers in the hallway, right?
[1:21:09] Yeah.
[1:21:10] And you trip over your parents' slippers. And you drop the plate. You drop all the glasses, you drop the tray, and everything smashes. There's a big mess. they're startled they're angry they're upset they're right now if you say and they say what the hell did you do that for and you say well someone left their slippers in the hallway and i tripped over them whoever left the slippers and i think that these are your slippers you should really put them as mom keeps telling you you should put them on the tray because like on the on the shoe tray because i tripped on the slippers because you left them there right what happens.
[1:21:57] You just deny or manipulate oh you're just seeing things maybe those are your slippers.
[1:22:03] You gotta watch where the hell you're going don't blame me kid right that's pathetic, don't blame me for you being clumsy you gotta watch where you're going what am i supposed to bring out a snowplow and clear the way everywhere you go. Just keep your eyes peeled. Look where the hell you're going.
[1:22:24] Yeah.
[1:22:25] You're so clumsy, right? Now, if you say, Dad, I'm not clumsy. You left your damn shoes in the hallway. It's a tripping hazard. And Dad, we also know, we also know for a simple fact, Dad, that if you tripped on my shoes, on my slippers, you'd say, don't leave your shit in the hallway. I've told you once, I've told you a thousand times It's a tripping hazard Put this stuff to one side Someone's going to fall and break their neck Right So you know that if I'd left my slippers there And you'd tripped, you'd blame me So I'm just doing the same.
[1:23:08] So if you leave Your shoes and I trip I'm at fault, If I leave my shoes and you trip I'm at fault, let's not right come on right let's not pretend that there's any reasons reasoning behind this and we know you and i know that that would be the case right yeah that if you left your shoes there and your dad tripped who left the goddamn shoes in the hallway it's a tripping hazard right look at this you clean this shit up right yeah so if you trip on your dad's shoes, and drop the tray with the glasses, then the only way you minimize punishment and, as you say, perhaps save your life, is to agree with the assessment that your father is not at all at fault for leaving his slippers in the hallway. You are entirely at fault for not watching where the hell you're going and being clumsy.
[1:24:06] I mean, that's how it plays out, right? Okay, so you minimize your punishment by agreeing with your father that you're at fault for not watching where you're going, not that he's at fault for leaving his slippers in the hallway.
[1:24:24] Right.
[1:24:25] So you agree with him and you say, basically, internally you might seethe, but you have to accept his position that you're clumsy and just weren't watching where the hell you were going, that it was your fault. That's the only way that you can minimize punishment, is to internalize and accept the criticism. Because if you reject the criticism... Then the punishment will escalate. Because your will has to be broken, and your father... I mean, by punishing you exorbitantly, your father has set up a situation where he can never admit fault.
[1:25:08] Yeah.
[1:25:09] Because to admit fault is to be punished. That's the paradigm that he's set up. And this was my friend from many, many years ago, right? Do we have a bike at home? I've mentioned this story before. I just say it is illustrative, right? We're biking home and if I swerved in front of him, then I cut me off. But if I biked too close behind him, then I was tailgating. So we're biking home. He's real close behind me. I have to swerve to avoid a rock on the sidewalk. He gets mad at me and says, I cut him off. And I say, no, you were tailgating. It wouldn't have been a problem if you'd given me some space. You were biking too close to me. Right? And I would not accept that I cut him off. That was bullshit. Because earlier that day, he'd criticized me for tailgating. Hey, man, give me some space.
[1:26:11] Right.
[1:26:12] Hang back a bit. You're tailgating. Right? So, I was not going to accept that I was at fault. I mean, what was I supposed to do? Drive into the rock on the sidewalk and crash? Was that the answer? Well, you've got to look where you're going, right? I'm honest, it's the same thing, right? And whereas, of course, I knew for a simple fact that if he had swerved to avoid a rock and i had spilled then he would say well serves you right for tailgating right.
[1:26:49] So you know it's just a power.
[1:26:53] Yeah i know that is hierarchy thing yeah and i'm i'm like i'm not gonna fucking back down i'm 12 years old i'm 13 years old basically fuck you i'm not backing down, and he went nuts like screaming throwing his bike around like he just went nuts, because that's what happens when you don't submit and he was a dangerous guy in that moment.
[1:27:24] That's just another 12 or 13-year-old, right?
[1:27:27] Right, right. That's not an adult who has power on me that I have to live with for another half decade or more. Yeah. So the way that you minimize punishment in the moment is you accept more punishment later. So if you trip on your dad's slippers and you spill the drinks, and you say i should have been more careful then your punishment is diminished, but then you have to internalize that you're careless and clumsy and don't watch where you're going don't look where you're going, yeah so you end up with more punishment later because the punishment then continues to occur when your parents aren't around because it's been internalized. So what I was resisting with my friend, lo those many decades ago, what I was resisting with my friend was I was no longer going to be, at fault no matter what. I was just absolutely not going to accept that I'm at fault no matter what. I am resisting that hierarchy.
[1:28:45] And, I mean, I knew this kid was capable of violence. I mean, he was, let's see, I remember I was at his house in 1980, the end of the decade of the 19th. I was 14. So I guess it happened when I was 14, 14 and a half. I guess I was at his house. I remember listening to the radio. Him and his mom went to bed. And I remember listening to the radio with a new decade and thinking this is about the saddest New Year's on the planet. But he was, when he got puberty and he got bigger, like he'd throw his mom up against the wall. and he's a violent guy. And I was glad to stand up to him and glad to move on. And then like a year or two later, he sort of half pathetically called me up and said, hey man, you got my football. Any chance you could bring it back? You know, maybe we could hang out. You know, just that kind of stuff, right? Because, you know, I was a good and fun friend. Still am. So what happens is you submit and it reduces punishment in the moment, but it escalates it later, because then you internalize it. Because you have to internalize it, because if you're only pretending, your parent will sense it and escalate.
[1:30:00] Yeah.
[1:30:04] I mean, I remember being at a friend's place when he was having a conflict with his mom, and his mom was, you know, doing that kind of weird, tricky thing that some women do. And you'd never do this and you always do that and I remember him just saying yes mom, no ma'am yes mom, no mom three bags full mom anything you say mom whatever you say like he was just chanting this right? Like she had no credibility at that point he was big, she was smaller and he was just resisting ferociously the internalization of fault.
[1:30:41] And I remember, yeah, in a relationship I had in my 20s with this woman, it was not a terrible relationship, but one of the things that did happen was when we would have a conflict in general, the only way that the conflict would be resolvable or could be resolved was for me to admit fault. And then at one point I was like, yeah, you know what, I've been nice. And, you know, I'm probably a little bit too nice sometimes back then. But yeah, I've been nice and I've accepted fault and I don't think I'm in the wrong this time. Right i don't think i'm in the wrong this time and, i just wouldn't back down and the relationship ended very shortly thereafter because she just escalated now and i'm like okay so if if me being nice means that you then treat me worse then i'm out because i don't want to end up in this stupid battle where you've got to be, dominant and harsh and it's win lose and like forget that right so, So the price of your survival was self-attack in the future. And I'm glad you paid it, because we can survive self-attack in the future. We can't survive escalations, or we might not survive escalations of violence, with parents when we refuse to take responsibility for their bullshit attacks. Does that make sense?
[1:32:03] Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.
[1:32:04] So right now, you are paying the price of survival, which is self-attack. Caution. Treating everyone as an abuser. And listen, you're right to treat everyone as an abuser. And maybe I'm wrong, of course, when you were a kid. I assume, given that your parents are the way they are and were the way they were, I'm going to assume that there were no warm, kind, gentle, moral, courageous souls anywhere in your vicinity.
[1:32:46] Yeah, no, there wasn't.
[1:32:48] Right. So everyone kind of was an abuser. So for you to treat everyone as an abuser is entirely sensible. It wasn't like in sort of the old aborigine tribes in Australia or the Maori. It wasn't like, well, half the Maori tribe is, you know, composed of violent cannibals, but the other half is like rational, peaceful parents. Right? We're tribal, which means if your parents are abusers, everyone's an abuser, therefore you have to treat everyone. As an abuser. You know, there's this old meme, it's not that old now, I guess, but there's a meme which is like, every attractive woman on the internet who comes on to you is a fed, right?
[1:33:34] Right, right, yeah.
[1:33:35] Right? You know, there's that picture of the cute girl like, hi guys, anyone got any firearms that they want to share?
[1:33:43] You see the faint glow of the screen behind it, yeah.
[1:33:46] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, in Minecraft, right? So, you know, that sort of caution, right? Right right i mean there's an old movie i think it was one of the wayne's world movies or something like that where garth played by dana carvey there's this really hot woman who's totally into him and he's kind of an early looking guy right and socially awkward yeah and there's this really hot woman who's into him and it turns out she's only into him because she wants him to kill her husband oh man right and and so this is the kind of caution that that you need right Because there are predators and so on in life, right?
[1:34:25] Right.
[1:34:26] So, you were entirely right in your essential assumption that if your parents are abusers, everyone's an abuser. Everyone in authority is an abuser. Because that's how we evolved. The opportunity to go from abuser to non-abuser did not exist for effectively every second of our evolution minus the last 12 seconds, which is not nearly long enough for anything to evolve, right? So we're still, like, I want you to look at this not personally, but as an evolutionary adaptation.
[1:35:10] Right.
[1:35:12] So you adapted, or your genetics adapted to treat everyone as an abuser, because that was the fact throughout all of human history. It's sort of like the Inuit, right? The Inuit or the Eskimos, the way up north people, they did not adapt to eat a whole bunch of bananas.
[1:35:45] Right.
[1:35:45] Because that's a tropical fruit, and they live in the frozen witch's tit-arse end of the planet, right? So if we say, well, they can get bananas now, yes but they did not evolve that way because getting bananas is the last five minutes of human evolution or really the last five seconds so they've had no time so so it's not any sort of personal failing on your part that you treat everyone as an abuser because it would have been absolutely true throughout all of human evolution and when i say all i mean maybe in the future a couple of generations maybe these things can change a little bit but for all of human evolution if there was one abuser, everyone was, if one abuser was in charge of you, everyone in charge was an abuser. Yeah. So, it's a perfectly sensible adaptation strategy, and in a sense, you're like some East Asian guy trying to train his body to digest lactose or something. So it's not a personal thing that there are these pauses. It's perfectly sensible from an adaptation standpoint. In fact, not only is it perfectly sensible, it's absolutely essential. It was required for your survival. Anybody who didn't treat everyone as an abuser didn't make it, or at least their odds of survival and reproduction were very, very, very low.
[1:37:12] Yeah.
[1:37:13] And even if they somehow managed to reproduce and raise their children in a different manner, then the tribal children those genes would even if you got one generation you wouldn't get the next right? Yeah. So the reason that you're stuck in no man's land is, because you are hardwired as we all are to treat everyone if we're raised by abusers we're hardwired to treat everyone as an abuser and that is a completely rational, sensible and healthy survival strategy, without that assumption we never would have made it our genes wouldn't be here.
[1:37:59] So it's not personal, it's not a failure, it's not a failing yeah it is absolutely, as central to your survival as anything can be as anything else can be, it's sort of like blaming yourself for having lust it's like well without lust there ain't no people right yeah we certainly wouldn't be here not a fault right so sorry that's a longy long speech but i just sort of wanted to point that out that you are in possession of, tools of survival that make this kind of transition really challenging, Thank you.
[1:38:49] Thank you for the speech.
[1:38:51] Sure.
[1:38:54] Now, the question then becomes, or remains, what are you trying to get from this weekend?
[1:39:24] Was I I you, i want to show my inner parts in those survival tools that i'm no longer, a dependent child who would get taken down by the death threats anymore Okay. It would just be a matter of speaking honestly and seeing that other people can't meet that hierarchy or that standard. So why would I take them seriously?
[1:40:07] Got it. Okay so you believe that you are not in the situation of still believing or feeling like you're a child right.
[1:40:25] That i currently don't feel like that.
[1:40:27] Yeah you don't feel like you're a child and you want to sort of prove that to your parents right yeah okay or.
[1:40:34] My inner parents at least who are defensive towards all people, right?
[1:40:39] Right, okay. So I guess I just have a question, which is that if you are not feeling this inner child stuff, then why did you start your conversation with me with this kind of parental manipulation stuff? And again, I say this without criticism. I mean, would that be the case?
[1:41:07] Right if i had if i had the the core belief that i have grown out of it what would even be the the purpose of going back to my parents because it would.
[1:41:18] Already know so if you say well i want to prove to my parents that i'm no longer a kid right yeah but if you start your conversation off with me by with that sort of manipulative stuff right which again i sort of sympathize with and I really understand, then... You haven't outgrown it as yet.
[1:41:45] Right. And that's, I suppose it's, to me, it seems like that confrontation with my parents would be what instills inside myself as well that I'm no longer a child. Does that make sense.
[1:42:15] Okay so you're saying as if i understand this rightly you're saying well as a kid, then as a kid i could not resist them right right but now that i'm an adult, i can and the way that i show that is to resist them, right okay got it got it can you do that uh safely.
[1:42:49] I believe if it gets too dangerous i can get out safely.
[1:43:02] And what would that mean tell me about how that would look what would that mean do you think.
[1:43:08] So say i start the conversation with my dad that hey i think there was a lot of humiliation inside my childhood and there was a lot of punishment and not a lot of love. He would start with denial and then he would go into excuses and then he would eventually get into getting upset at me and saying well you don't even know what my childhood was like. Then at some point if he tries to threaten me either physically or on the cops or something, then I would have no doubt in my mind.
[1:43:51] So are you provoking him, in order to see his temper and thus release yourself from obligation?
[1:44:01] Yeah.
[1:44:02] Okay.
[1:44:04] His anger isn't justified.
[1:44:06] Okay. So there is a part of you that doesn't accept that yet, right? Again, no criticism, I'm just, logically that would be the case.
[1:44:13] There's a part of me that doesn't believe that he is unjustified anger.
[1:44:17] Yeah because if you fully accepted that his anger was unjustified you wouldn't need to provoke him in order to prove to yourself that his anger was unjustified yeah is that fair that's exactly it okay so there's a part of you that believes his anger is justified.
[1:44:38] Yeah, that would make sense. And I believe that, yeah.
[1:44:43] So tell me, what is the rational justification behind, or make the case for your father's anger being justified? What is it that you believe, at some level, that has you perceive that your father's anger could be justified?
[1:45:03] That i've only ever seen is anger when he's being submissive to some female tyrant in his life.
[1:45:10] Okay that's very abstract what is the language that would justify your father's contempt for you what would he what what is the language what is it what is in your head that you think might be right.
[1:45:41] The language isn't, isn't coming to me immediately, it's the...
[1:45:46] Okay, what, what were his core criticisms of you that still hurt or bother you the most?
[1:46:00] That I was, lazy, ungrateful, that I was constantly causing problems that I was uncontrollable I felt like he had to call the police on me in order to get me to comply, He just felt like I was something that he didn't understand at all.
[1:46:42] Okay. So the criticisms are that you're selfish, ungrateful, off-putting, aggressive, potentially violent. Is it sort of stuff like that?
[1:46:56] Yeah.
[1:46:57] And controllable. Is that right? Or what does that mean?
[1:47:05] Yeah. Like none of his discipline or spanking ever really changed me.
[1:47:20] Yeah. Okay. So you couldn't be broken?
[1:47:26] Yeah.
[1:47:29] And that's where you said this was unwise, right? Well, I mean, we can say maybe, but I mean, but it's kind of heroic, isn't it?
[1:47:40] Yeah. I just realized all these excuses are exactly what I'm using as my reasons to go and confront them again.
[1:47:49] Go on.
[1:47:52] That because i'm defined and uncontrollable and selfish i would dig up this past hurt, that doesn't have anything to do with the present and he has to call the cops on me in order to control me it's a repetition not not actually a change.
[1:48:10] So when we grow up with abusive parents we have a compliance we do what they want i mean we have to right right i mean if the guard in in some unjust concentration camp the guard tells you to get up and do something you get up and do it right yeah so my concern is that if your parents are cruel then they may in fact be missing the chance to exercise power over you and you may be returning to them in order to satisfy their need for cruelty to give them power over you because we're raised to comply, that it's their preference that you return not yours it's to their benefit not yours, I mean.
[1:49:11] So I suppose I feel conflicted because in the last year, the choice not to visit them and not talk to them and not allow them to express their cruelty through me hasn't changed my belief. So it's like, oh, well, I'll do the opposite where I will.
[1:49:30] Sorry, it hasn't changed which belief?
[1:49:34] This belief that being alone is safety.
[1:49:39] Well, but if you are still internalizing their criticisms, then that won't, that will give you some relief in that you won't be adding to the wound, but the wound won't be healing either.
[1:49:56] Right. So I don't know why I would go and visit my parents.
[1:50:09] Have we done a role play with your dad before? I can't remember.
[1:50:12] No, we haven't. Okay, let's take it first wing.
[1:50:15] Yeah, let's take it first wing. And I obviously won't get all the details right, but, you know, just go with it as best you can. And if I get something egregiously wrong, just let me know outside the role play. Does that make sense?
[1:50:26] Sounds good to me.
[1:50:28] So dad, as you, I guess, am aware, we haven't talked in a year. And now we're talking again and there's stuff that I really want to talk about with regards to my childhood because I have some very big and grave issues with how you and mom parented me. Let's just talk about you. I've talked to mom separately. So just, you know, you're going to need to sit down and this may not be super pleasant for you, but it's really, really important for me.
[1:50:57] I'm excited to have this conversation. I wish I could add the same with my own mom.
[1:51:02] Ah, okay. All right, so my childhood was kind of like a terror fest, right? I mean, there was physical violence, emotional abuse, and neglect. And the homeschooling was absolute crap. I mean, you basically just gave me a textbook. I got hit, sometimes beaten. I got my mouth washed out with soap. I got screamed at. This was all incredibly abusive and destructive and frankly abhorrent like morally repugnant there was some significant evils in the way that I was raised and I guess I'm going to need you to, to accept that and that this was not good parenting this was in fact bad parenting to the point where I think it was actually kind of evil at times.
[1:51:54] I'm first off i'm i'm sorry about what i contributed to that background like it.
[1:52:03] Sorry what you contributed to that yeah no no no dad this is stuff you did it's not you know if if i if i strangle some kitten in front of a bunch of kids and the kids are traumatized i don't get to say well i'm sorry for what i contributed to that like it's what i did it's what you did, you're i mean you're already minimizing.
[1:52:32] This this feels like a trap to me uh.
[1:52:35] Yeah i'm not interested in your feelings dad dad dad dad need you to focus on my feelings okay let me ask you this do you think that it was morally right, to hit me and sometimes beat me and scream at me? Do you think that's good parenting? In other words, is there a parenting book from any reasonably competent expert that says, let's just say the screaming part, because I know that the spanking or the hitting is still sometimes controversial. Is there any parenting book that says, you know, scream at the top of your lungs, red face at your children when they're like five or six, and that's good parenting?
[1:53:26] No, I didn't read any book like that.
[1:53:30] Okay, so what books did you read about parenting, right? Because you knew that you were parented. I mean, you've told me that your mom was harsh with you and abusive with you. So you knew that you were parented badly, right? So what books did you read in how to improve parenting from how you were parented?
[1:53:55] There wasn't really there wasn't really books it was more of that I was pulling it from the church community and their advice, that was around and their recommendations to read through proverbs in the bible and that sort of thing, and was your mother also raised religious no she was an atheist okay Okay.
[1:54:18] So you went to Proverbs, and Proverbs says, scream at the top of your lungs at your children, and be sure to insult them by calling them selfish and lazy and stupid, and this is the way to raise children.
[1:54:35] No no no that that was more the the other church members who were saying that children need to be raised with spanking and a stern stern father well.
[1:54:49] But a stern father is not screaming right, Screaming is being out of control, right?
[1:54:58] Yeah, okay, I was out of control.
[1:55:00] I mean, the priest never screamed at people. And also, if the parenting was so good that you were doing and so approved of by the church, I guess I'm kind of curious why you never did it at church. I mean, it was always behind closed doors. I mean, if you were parenting well, according to the people at church, then why would you hide your parenting? Or the excesses and screaming and hitting of your parenting, why would you hide that from people in the church? Because there were times when I misbehaved at church and you shot me a look like you'll get it later. So if they really improved of your parenting, why would you hide it from them? Unless you were ashamed or felt bad about it in some way.
[1:55:44] I mean, I didn't do it in the congregation because that would cause too much of a distraction from the ceremonies.
[1:55:51] Knees no no but after or before right afterwards when we were mingling or uh if we were playing around the church and so on right you weren't interrupting any congregation and and even when people came over from the church to our house you always shot me a look like you didn't scream at the top of your lungs at me in front of people from the church and i guess i'm kind of confused if like you didn't hide that you prayed because everyone approved that you prayed and praying was a good thing, so you'd get down on your knees at church and you'd pray. So I don't understand why you would hide your parenting, which everyone thinks is a good and positive and noble and holy thing. That would be like hiding that you were praying or praising God, which would be a good, holy and noble thing.
[1:56:34] So why did you only do these terrible things in private if you felt that they were good and positive things?
[1:56:51] Are you waiting until now to say it now that.
[1:56:54] No no sorry basically all my kids hang on hang on i'd really appreciate it see it's really rude dad it's really rude to not even acknowledge, that i asked you a question but to pretend like i didn't say anything that's really rude right so don't do that all right what's your question sorry you don't remember my question, how the hell am i supposed to have a conversation with you dad if you're not even listening.
[1:57:23] I'm just trying to hold my hold back my frustrations.
[1:57:29] Okay so what you're saying is you're not listening.
[1:57:33] I missed the question.
[1:57:34] No you ignored the question and now you don't even remember a question that i asked not 10 seconds ago, Look, Dad, if you don't want to listen, that's totally fine. I'm not forcing you to listen. I'm not an abuser, right? I'm not going to scream at you. I'm not going to hit you, right? Although, as a kid, when I would be forgetful, sometimes if I forgot things or lost things, you'd scream at me, right? So, you are not listening, or rather, you're pretending to listen. You're ignoring my question, and then you're claiming you don't even remember it, which is really passive-aggressive and rude. But you see, I'm not going to scream at you because I'm not you. So if you don't want to listen if you're not going to have a conversation with me that's totally fine I'm not going to force you to do anything but this is the conversation we're going to have or nothing, so if you don't want to have the conversation with me that's totally fine then I will leave and not come back but the price of being in my life is having this conversation with me just so you know the stakes, right? So if you don't want to have this conversation with me that's fine you can just tell me now and i'll get up and i'll thank you for the coffee and i'll leave if you do want to have this conversation with me i expect you to listen.
[1:59:00] All right i'm i'm sorry that i'm not listening.
[1:59:04] Okay are you going to commit to listen.
[1:59:09] Yes let's have the conversation.
[1:59:11] Okay, it if your parenting was so good why did you never do it in front of anyone else even the people who approved of it like people from the church when they were over socially or we were at their house socially why did you only ever scream at me or hit me, when we were in private if everyone approved of your parenting, I mean, everyone approves that you feed kids when they're hungry, right? So if I hadn't eaten all day and I asked for something to eat and people were over, you'd give me something to eat, right? Because that's good parenting. So why did you hide your parenting if you were so proud of it?
[1:59:59] Because I was embarrassed that I didn't know exactly what kind of spanking that they might have been talking about or like timeouts. Maybe they thought I was going to be a bit obsessive. So I didn't want to be corrected in that way.
[2:00:18] Okay. So you were concerned that people might view you as an out-of-control parent for screaming at and hitting your kids too hard, right?
[2:00:27] Yeah.
[2:00:28] Okay. So you were concerned that other people might view you negatively, but apparently you weren't concerned that I would view you negatively. So, you were afraid of upsetting other people by hitting me too hard or screaming at me too loud, and that was bad. But the person you were actually hitting and screaming at, you didn't particularly care about my feelings because you didn't say, gee, maybe I am too excessive in my aggression as a parent. I should really try and get some better answers. So, you had the idea that you were doing something wrong, but you only cared about other people's opinions, not the actual affection and connection of your own flesh and blood?
[2:01:16] Yes.
[2:01:19] What do you think of that? That you cared more about the opinions of strangers or others than you did about the happiness and security and affection of your own child, your own son.
[2:01:42] That weighs really heavily on me. I'm sorry that I put you through that.
[2:01:49] But why? You knew you were doing wrong or could be. Why wouldn't you get help? I mean i'll give you an example just why this is so incomprehensible and i'm sorry to ask a question and then make a statement but i get that this is tough so when i was a kid there were a number of times when i did badly on tests right you remember those right yeah now i didn't walk into those things those tests thinking i was going to do badly i thought i knew the material fairly well right you remember that yeah okay like i read through the math book i seem to recognize the questions and I get like a 50 or a 40 or a 60 and you'd get really mad, right? And I'd say, well, no, I thought I was doing all right. I thought I kind of knew it. I thought maybe I was a little deficient, but not that bad, right? And what did you say to me?
[2:02:43] Out of the role play, he didn't really give a shit what I was doing in school as long as I got a diploma. So he didn't know what my test scores were or grades or anything.
[2:02:51] Okay, let's do it again. And I appreciate that correction. All right. So So, Dad, when I was at church, sometimes I would sort of laugh or giggle or do the wrong thing, right? You remember that?
[2:03:05] Yeah, I remember that.
[2:03:06] Right. And you remember that you would get really angry at me for not behaving in the proper way at church, right?
[2:03:13] Yeah.
[2:03:13] And you would correct me, even though I was like five or six or seven or eight years old, right? And you'd be pretty harsh about it at times, right?
[2:03:21] I would tell you if you were going to be all antsy, why didn't you go down with the other children?
[2:03:27] Right. But if I continued to be antsy or giggly or whatever, right, then you'd get pretty angry, right?
[2:03:35] Yeah, I would drag you out into the hallway.
[2:03:37] Right. So you'd be pretty harsh with me because I wasn't behaving in the right way. So, I was expected to have better standards of behavior at the age of five or six or seven, but you just let yourself hit me and scream at me, even though you felt that you were doing the wrong thing. So, you didn't have to have higher standards of behavior in your parenting, but I had to have higher standards of, quote, respect when I was five or six or seven years old at church. So, I have to have higher standards as a little kid, but you don't have to have higher standards as an adult, as a parent, as a father, with all that power and control and authority? Why was I supposed to have better standards of behavior as a kid, but you didn't have to do SPAC as an adult to improve your parenting?
[2:04:29] I mean, if that sort of criticism of dragging you out of the church was so bad, why did all the other parents also do that with their kids.
[2:04:42] Okay, but you're not answering my question. Do you remember the question? Because remember, you promised to listen, right?
[2:04:49] Yes. And I recognized that was an excuse. I'm sorry. Why did your behavior have to be so much higher than mine when I was the adult in this situation?
[2:05:01] No, it was, why did I have to have higher standards of behavior for being quiet in church, but you didn't have to have higher standards for behavior, even though you knew you were doing wrong as a parent. Why did I have to be quiet in church and you didn't even have to pick up a parenting book or ask the priest whether you should be screaming at the top of your lungs at your five-year-old?
[2:05:30] I don't have an answer for that.
[2:05:33] Okay, I can wait. Because I was, as a kid, I was never allowed to say, well, I don't know. I don't know. Why did you do that? I don't know. Well, that's not good enough. That's what you'd say, right? So I don't know is not a good enough answer. Why did you inflict higher standards on me at the age of five, but be totally lazy and self-indulgent with regards to all of your worst and most aggressive instincts as a parent when you were 40? When you're eight times older than I am, and you have infinitely lower standards about stuff infinitely more important, it matters whether you hit your children. It doesn't matter whether I giggle in church. So you had infinitely higher standards for a little kid about stuff that doesn't matter and infinitely lower standards for yourself as an adult and as a father, but it really mattered. You understand why you have no authority with me? Because you had no authority with yourself. You only bullied me and indulged yourself. And then you had the nerve to call me lazy?
[2:06:55] Yeah, I suppose I did.
[2:07:00] Sorry, you suppose you did?
[2:07:05] I did hold you to those standards.
[2:07:09] And you understand you did not hold yourself to any standards. You were self-indulgent and lazy as a parent because you wouldn't even pick up a book or ask for advice.
[2:07:19] Yeah. You have an issue with that, son?
[2:07:27] I'm sorry, I'm not sure why you're getting vaguely intimidating here. Do you have an issue with calling me lazy when you were the lazy one?
[2:07:37] No.
[2:07:39] So you have no issue with hypocrisy?
[2:07:44] I suppose I don't. I mean, that's... Parents and children are different. beings.
[2:07:51] Well, is there any parenting book that says that you should have infinitely higher standards for a five-year-old about things that aren't important than you should for yourself as a 40-year-old about things that are very important?
[2:08:07] I don't know. I never read those parenting books.
[2:08:10] Okay. Logically, do you think it's reasonable for a father to aggressively punish a child for a minor infraction, while indulging his own bad parenting, which he knows is bad parenting, without correction. To correct a child for something unimportant, but not to correct his parenting, which is infinitely important. Do you think that that is reasonable for a parent to do, to punish a child for inconsequential things and forgive himself for corrupt and negative parenting habits.
[2:08:50] How else are kids supposed to learn how to be obedient in society?
[2:08:57] Oh, I can tell you that one quite easily. So the way that children are supposed to learn how to obey rules is to watch their parents obeying rules. Right? What parenting rules did you obey? You got angry, you yelled. You got angry, you hit. you self-indulged.
[2:09:22] You know there's a sin called wrath right excessive anger, and so if you want me to obey rules then you if you want me to show self-discipline and self-restraint then you have to show self-discipline and self-restraint, if you want me to hold myself to a higher standard you need to hold yourself to a higher standard but all I could see for the most part with you as a parent was you self-indulged and self-indulged and self-indulged and were lazy and didn't try to learn any better. And you got angry and you yelled and you got angry and you hit and you got angry and you pulled me out into the hallway and you got angry and you stuffed a bar of soap in my mouth. There was no self-restraint. I mean, dad, come on. There's no Christian parent who says, scream at your children. You're supposed to reason with your children. You're supposed to be calm. You're supposed to show self-restraint, self-discipline. And if there is spanking, it's supposed to be warned, explained, not done in anger. And there's supposed to be understanding afterwards. None of that ever happened. Not one bit of it. You are a lazy, self-indulgent, hysterical and aggressive parent.
[2:10:31] With no self-restraint whatsoever. And then you say, well, how are kids supposed to learn self-restraint? You're supposed to model it.
[2:10:40] Which you did not do. All you modeled was self-indulgence. Get angry, yell. Get angry, hit. No higher standard, and you don't have to restrain yourself at all.
[2:10:56] I suppose I don't think I can change that belief that you have at all, and we should just stop talking.
[2:11:05] So you would rather not have a relationship with me than have this conversation with me?
[2:11:12] Yeah because how am i supposed to change this belief you seem so convinced of it.
[2:11:19] What are you saying you sorry i seem convinced of it i'm providing you reason and evidence as to why i believe what i believe and you're saying it's some weird irrational prejudice that is not open to reason and evidence if you want to change my mind tell me how i'm wrong, don't insult me by saying i'm some sort of weird ideologue with some fixed set of beliefs that can't be reached with reason and evidence. I'm giving you reason and evidence, Dad! Give me contradictory reason and evidence, and I'd be happy to listen. But don't call me prejudiced when I'm giving you reasoned arguments as to why I believe what I believe. Don't insult me when I'm calling you a not positive parent. That's kind of confirming the thesis, isn't it?
[2:12:04] Yeah, sure. Maybe it's true. But i've already stated that i don't want to have this conversation anymore, so you can see yourself out.
[2:12:18] Okay but let's not pretend that it's because i'm prejudiced it's because you can't handle the truth i.
[2:12:24] Said you could leave.
[2:12:25] Yeah you can dish it out big tough guy can't you you can scream at kids my house you can so i guess i'll.
[2:12:31] Just call the cops.
[2:12:32] On you you big pathetic tough guy weasel bag you can dish it out you oh you kids scream at the kids yell at the kids hit the kids but the moment the kids come back with any kind of criticism you get all kinds oh i gotta call the cops i can't have this conversation you're pathetic, you're weak you're a bully and a coward you can push around five-year-olds but the moment a 28 year eight-year-old gives you some rational feedback you punk out, you're a coward you're contemptible and i'm glad to be gone, and i'd get up and go, I mean, what's he going to do? Is he going to call the cops and say, my kid is reasoning with me? Isn't that against the law? My kid is giving me rational, objective feedback. My kid is holding me to some kind of higher standard. You need to arrest him, officer.
[2:13:33] Yeah, no.
[2:13:38] Boy, he did kind of turn at the end there, didn't he?
[2:13:40] He did, yeah.
[2:13:41] Right. And he tried to come with, I mean, true, all the gaslighting, the I wasn't listening, and then the projection and then the seeming compliance and the weasel bagging, well, maybe that's the case. And then the insult, well, I can't change your mind. You've got a fixed belief that's not open to reason, which is just projection because he's got the fixed belief that's not open to reason.
[2:14:03] Right.
[2:14:04] And then when you pointed out that he was insulting you, he then escalated to the cops, right?
[2:14:10] Right.
[2:14:11] Right. And i mean how did i do in terms of reasonable pushback.
[2:14:18] No you got it spot on.
[2:14:23] And do you think that there's any chance that he could respond differently.
[2:14:33] He did it's just because he has every bag of tricks not because he would want to engage with it honestly.
[2:14:39] Right right i see you i think if i understand this rightly you have not done, you know great evil in the world right no i haven't right so it's it's one of the weaknesses i mean it's a strength to have a good conscience but the weakness is it's hard to understand people with a terrible conscience your father cannot admit what he did, So, I'll sort of give you a religious analogy, right?
[2:15:10] So, if you sell your soul to the devil for a million dollars, and then you get the million dollars, and then the devil comes on your deathbed and says, it's time to collect, and he takes your soul down to hell and locks you up in a chamber with CNN, then do you get to say, I was wrong, I've changed my mind?
[2:15:34] No.
[2:15:34] Right. So, your father's grievous sins are in the past, and they have, in my view, become mortal, because they can't be undone. So, you go to hell when you can't undo the wrongs you've done, and there's no return voyage. I don't think there'll be a return journey, Mr. Frodo. there is no return voyage because once you've done so much wrong that it can't be undone, then you can't admit fault. Because all you'll do is want to die and your genes just want to keep you going, keep you alive. So it becomes death to admit fault. I mean, I've, you know, my mom inherited a cat from someone and turned that cat insane. Yeah it's really sad i don't know what she did to that cat but i had to go once to take the cat to the vet and i had to get the cat into a carry-all right i don't know what they call the containers right i thought i was going to lose my arm yeah yeah right so if you've ever tried to really grapple with a a an animal that has no resistance to fighting back that's what it's like trying to get corrupt people to look at their own souls right i had to give up.
[2:17:02] Like i couldn't do it i'd need some sort of body armor.
[2:17:12] You can't get people you can't get that people you can't get people who are that corrupt to look at their own souls it's impossible.
[2:17:25] Because the only way that your parents did what they did for 30, almost 30 years, is by having a fluid ability to avoid their own conscience. That's a very, that's a stronger muscle than you and I can ever dream of. The muscle to avoid their own conscience is stronger than you and I will ever be with anything. It's like trying to lift a mountain and move it. You and I have worked on muscles like integrity and so on, but, you know, we still have our doubts and we still need our corrections and we still check in with other people and principals, right? So it's still a challenge, right? But if you have, and I assume that this predates parenting by decades, is your father in his 60s, 50s?
[2:18:22] Let's see, 72. 1972 is when he was born Oh okay.
[2:18:31] Sorry That's a little different Okay, so he's in his 50s Okay, so he's had more than half a century Of avoiding his conscience Or even if we say it was as an adult Right, as an adult So he has, Had, you know, 30 years, Plus of avoiding his conscience Right? Okay and I don't think you've ever seen him wrestle with his conscience, no I mean I remember after my mother beat me up once that she came in and held my hand in the dark, and I pretended to be asleep and I pretended that I was having a tough time catching my breath because I wanted her to know the suffering she was creating that probably and I was very little I was maybe four or five, and that's the last time I remember her wrestling with her conscience It's.
[2:19:24] Yeah.
[2:19:24] Right. So by the time I was 35 or whatever, right, that had been 30 years that she had avoided wrestling with her conscience. Now, avoiding wrestling with your conscience, that's a big, strong muscle and it's continual. And if somebody, you know, I mean, if we can imagine somebody working out their biceps for 30 years for eight hours a day or 10 hours a day, if you could write safely, their muscles would be stronger than you and I could ever conceive of because we haven't worked out our biceps for 30 years for eight hours a day.
[2:19:54] Yeah, I just realized something, which is, you think about how strong our conscience is in changing our behavior because we have it, and then imagine a muscle stronger than that.
[2:20:04] Well, infinitely stronger in that it's not even a battle anymore. It would be like one of those slapping contests, but with a girl guide and the rock. Right, so they don't even struggle with it. They effortlessly avoid it, right? And because they're avoiding their own conscience. See, you have to understand, sorry, that's an annoying way to put it. It's important to understand, in my opinion, that people who are willing, to override their own conscience and that is the stance that they have taken in their life and it's the only way that their lives can continue to even remotely be justified. People who have said, my conscience is meaningless to me. To those people, all relationships are expendable. The avoidance of conscience, the erasure of conscience, is the only relationship that matters.
[2:21:03] Yeah.
[2:21:05] Keeping the conscience imprisoned is the only relationship that matters. Everything that threatens to unlock the conscience is expendable. Virtue, morality, philosophy, integrity, honesty, curiosity, standards, right? And this is, I mean, this is the Wikipedia thing, right? I mean, it's that, I have to be condemned because if I'm not condemned, then the conscience uses my strength to confront the false self. The false self can't have that. And so this is why when your father began to get in touch with his conscience or be aware of it through consistency and integrity, the conscience is just upb emotionally then he had to say get out, because all relationships are expendable to those avoiding their own conscience, because no relationship is more important than the avoidance of the conscience does that make sense yeah so you going you going to say well parents i want to get you in touch with your conscience.
[2:22:24] I mean go i mean i you know if it's safe right i'm not going to tell you to go or not go and you shouldn't listen to me if i did say go or not go but just be aware that that is the mechanic that you're facing that is the mechanism that you're facing those are the defenses that you're facing right and the reason you know that your father's relationship with you would be sacrificed in order to avoid his own conscience, as it's already been happening for 28 years.
[2:22:51] Yeah.
[2:22:55] Right, so he would rather beat you than confront his own uneasy conscience about bad parenting. So he is willing to sacrifice his relationship with you in order to avoid his conscience. He said that very clearly in the role play, if you recall.
[2:23:12] Yeah. You'd rather me get locked up and falsely incarcerated.
[2:23:22] Or dragged or whatever, right?
[2:23:24] Yeah.
[2:23:28] The strength of that muscularity of avoiding the conscience is, unfortunately, it's the greatest force in human affairs that exists and has ever existed, is the avoidance of the conscience. Which is why when Jesus said says, let those without sin cast the first stone, they got to kill him.
[2:23:53] Yeah.
[2:23:55] Because he's provoking the conscience. And the battle is between those who listen to the conscience and those who incarcerate the conscience. And to those who incarcerate the conscience, all jailbreaks, are the greatest catastrophe. Yeah I've only done this once really but the cruel person is touch them to the live wire of their own conscience long before I did a show and it was a brutal thing to see and that person never recovered, yeah.
[2:24:44] Likely feels like the electrocution chair.
[2:24:47] Well, no, because that ends.
[2:24:50] Yeah.
[2:24:52] It's permanent waking torture. It'd be like saying to someone, hey, through this conversation, you might get permanent crippling back pain for the rest of your life.
[2:25:09] Yeah, leave me out of that.
[2:25:11] Yeah or you know your balls are gonna ferociously ache until the day you die but you know but it's important for me to have the conversation that might provoke that and be like people will just like get out no i'm not having this car i'm not having this conversation in no way shape or form like they'll literally put their heads their hands in their ears their fingers in their ears and scream at the top of their lungs rather than hear this curse of suffering.
[2:25:32] And the role play uh the father was definitely tempted to do that.
[2:25:36] Yep but.
[2:25:36] He thought it would look immature foolish.
[2:25:38] Right Right, right. So, to inflict permanent soul agony on someone, because the conscience is your friend, but if you ignore it, it becomes your predator, it becomes your hunter, it hunts you.
[2:25:54] Yeah.
[2:26:00] The violated, outraged, and incarcerated, original self after being trapped by sadism. cruelty, coldness, abuse. It is a vengeful ghost. It is not a friendly ghost. Ours is a friendly ghost. Like, I'd like to help you out, right? Every now and then. It was like, I think it was last summer or the summer before. I won't get into details. I was thinking of doing something that was a little bit based on vanity and enthusiasm and so on. And I had a terrible dream saying, for God's sakes, don't do that, right? And I was like, I had to unwind the whole thing and apologize and back out and and you know it's like my conscience was like yeah bad idea right you're being tempted by something that's not wise and not uh uh full of integrity and i was like yeah thank you thank you appreciate that appreciate that thank you for the correction you know like your gps you'd go the wrong way recalculating right thank you thank you right.
[2:27:03] To admit fault is to remain in soul agony for what feels like an eternity right the only mortal souls are individuals right all of the coldness sadism sociopathy psychopathy cruelty evil that's all eternal right and so it feels like death for eternity, and it feels like torture forever like if this conversation would send you to hell right you wouldn't want this conversation. And that's where integrity can lead people with a terrible conscience who've done great and corrupt things.
[2:27:43] I think of the end of the dream that I wrote down, where it's two different people that are standing in the middle of my construction zone, impeding the ability to grow, pour in the concrete and build the foundation.
[2:27:59] To try to understand what life is like for people with a bad conscience is one of the toughest feats of virtue for people with a good conscience. Because also we look at that suffering and we feel sympathy yeah but that sympathy will simply be used against us, coldness towards self-inflicted moral suffering is an essential characteristic of strength and virtue, corrupt people have brought their suffering on themselves And if we show any sympathy, they'll simply use it against us.
[2:28:42] Yeah.
[2:28:43] It's like someone faking an injury so that the doctor comes closer and wants to help them. And then they strangled the doctor with the stethoscope, right? Your sympathy will just be used against you, which is why it is tough because we normally have sympathy towards suffering. but when the sympathy towards suffering is used against us we have to turn our heart off and the only possibility for integrity is coldness towards self-inflicted moral suffering.
[2:29:12] Yeah i have to look at look at as suspiciously as someone with their hazard lights on these days right.
[2:29:19] Oh yeah for sure for sure yeah i mean somebody who's like oh help me help me right and, you know like if there's this pretty girl by the road she's got a flat tire or something and you could see you know three guys in the back seat with balaclavas on and be like yeah good luck honey.
[2:29:36] Yeah i'll keep on driving.
[2:29:38] Well and and to be angry as well right.
[2:29:41] Maybe even to call the cops and be.
[2:29:45] Like hey.
[2:29:45] There's a suspicious people there.
[2:29:47] Yeah yeah there's some really sketchy people who are trying to do bad things right yeah.
[2:29:59] I think that's uh that's what i was looking for in this conversation.
[2:30:02] Good and i'm sorry we didn't get to the dream but i know we've had a good old lengthy chat and i just wanted to uh i know that you were talking about seeing your family and again see or don't see but that's your call your choice you're certainly smart and wise enough to make a good call on that but uh just i want you to just go in with your eyes open that's all yeah absolutely yeah i needed to show up with that cat in a hazmat suit all right will you keep me posted about how things are going yeah absolutely well i really do and and thanks for taking the time today and i look forward to hearing how your weekend goes sounds good thank you stuff bye-bye bye-bye.
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