0:05 - The State of My Marriage
5:01 - Family Dynamics and Childhood
7:40 - Reflections on Past Relationships
12:11 - The Impact of COVID
20:41 - Parenting and Discipline
23:33 - Grief and Loss
43:22 - The Strain of Isolation
47:23 - Confronting Addiction
51:33 - Attempts at Connection
59:17 - The Case for Staying
1:03:04 - The Challenge of Communication
1:10:43 - The Burden of Loneliness
1:14:27 - Understanding Emotional Disconnect
1:16:58 - Value in Conversation
1:38:44 - Honest Conversations with Parents
2:22:56 - Cross-Cultural Challenges in Marriage
2:36:20 - Taking Action for Change
In this in-depth conversation, a caller grapples with the difficult decision of whether to stay in his 11-year marriage or pursue a divorce, expressing feelings of loneliness, frustration, and helplessness regarding his familial relationships. The conversation begins with the caller detailing his history with his wife, including red flags during their dating period and issues that have emerged since their marriage. The caller describes a shift in their relationship dynamics after COVID-19, citing events such as his wife's father's death and her subsequent blame directed towards him as pivotal moments that exacerbated their challenges.
The caller shares about his experience of feeling increasingly isolated over the years, especially during his wife's postpartum depression, which caused him to take on the primary role of caregiver for their daughter. He recounts how their intimate relationship dwindled, mentioning years of living in separate spaces and a lack of communication from his wife, who ceased to initiate conversations or activities together. The escalation of their issues is illustrated through arguments, his wife's DUI incident while driving their daughter and her friends, and the ways in which these events have impacted his relationship with both his wife and daughter.
As the discussion delves deeper, the caller reflects on his upbringing, revealing the lack of direct emotional guidance from his parents, particularly when it comes to matters of relationships and social interactions. This absence of foundational advice becomes a crucial aspect in understanding the caller's current struggles and his perception of relationships as transactional rather than genuine and expressive. The conversation touches upon generational differences in parenting styles, particularly how the caller's parents failed to engage with him on emotional topics, leading to his current inability to communicate effectively in his marriage.
Stefan provides thoughtful reflections, challenging the caller to confront uncomfortable truths about his past and the dynamics within his relationship. He emphasizes the importance of open communication and the need for the caller to express his feelings honestly, both to himself and to his wife. They discuss the implications of cultural differences in his marriage and the impact of his wife’s upbringing on their relationship. Stefan proposes that the caller engage deeply with his parents to uncover the roots of his emotional distance, suggesting that understanding their lack of direct involvement in his emotional upbringing could illuminate the current disconnect he feels in his own relationships.
Throughout the conversation, Stefan encourages the caller to consider his own self-worth and the importance of fostering relationships based on more than just transactional interactions. The caller acknowledges the deep sense of loneliness and rejection he feels within his marriage and from his daughter, provoking an introspective turn in his narrative. He expresses a desire to forge deeper connections but feels uncertain about how to initiate these changes.
The caller concludes with a tentative plan to reconnect with his parents, aiming to better understand the dynamics that shaped his upbringing. Stefan reinforces this approach, highlighting her potential benefits for both the caller's emotional growth and the improvement of his marital relationship. The call wraps up with a call to action for the caller to take tangible steps forward, underscoring the need for clarity and intention in his efforts to enhance his family life and overcome the cyclical patterns that have led to his current state of discontent.
[0:00] Hi, Stef. I would like to do a call in and see if you could help me work through staying married or getting divorced.
[0:06] I got married 11 years ago and have felt alone the last six or seven. We dated about a year. For the most part, the dating period went well. She was easy to get along with. The red flags during dating on a trip was cut short because she said my friends, who I had not seen in years, said I was cheating on her. Um it would have been totally out of character for them to say that so i did not believe her, uh i was not and have not cheated on her uh we were also both divorced which is another red flag after getting married we had a kid together which went into postpartum depression for her about a year. During that time, I spent a lot of time with the kid who basically became my only friend. I spent a lot of time taking care of her. A lot of nights, I would not even eat. I would.
[1:15] I cut off myself from most of my local friends and rarely spoke to my friends who were not local. I had moved several years earlier for work. Then COVID hit and we were on the opposite sides. Her father, who was in another country, died from being exposed to a caregiver who was not vaxxed, which I am not. He was not in a good health to begin with, but she blamed the unvaxxed, which was me. At this point, I had been living downstairs, and we had quit having sex for a year. During this time, I tried repurposing to her, thinking that it would bring down the wall between us. Her reply was, the heart wants what the heart wants. So that did not work.
[2:07] Months later, I moved back into the bedroom. My daughter was still in our bed. Which she uses as a shield from me. My wife said she did not approve and I replied I did not want what was going on and she could leave if she did not like it. Recently, they moved to another bedroom because I said we were harming our daughter by not making her sleep in her own room. She is nine. Our problems that have come up, my wife had a wreck before we met and now does not want to ride in the front seat. She would ride up front before COVID. I do not want to be a chauffeur and feel it is disrespectful and antisocial. I am a cautious driver. She is also a big seatbelt advocate and constantly tells me to put on the seatbelt. My daughter picked up on it and for years scolded me on it. One day after my daughter was screaming seatbelt, as soon as we got in the car, I told her I would no longer wear it which broke my relationship with her, i have started wearing it again but uh the relationship is still not where it was.
[3:22] Also during that time my wife would start fights with me um angry in front of the to get me angry in front of the child and further degraded my relationship with my daughter i would not yell but did raise my voice um i did not like arguing in front of the child which was what made me angry, Then I realized what was going on, but only after damaging the relationship, I stopped. Another stupid argument we got into was asking her to put down the recliner portion of the couch. When she got up, she refused saying it was too hard. I went and bought an electric couch, which she still does not recline. End of the year, I filled out divorce papers. My daughter found them and brought to my wife. I really do not want a divorce but thought thought she would realize uh things had to improve, shortly after my wife got a dui with my daughter and another girl in the car i stuck around after um after to make sure my daughter was taken care of and possibly fix things.
[4:34] Since then i try to come up when things with things to do on the weekend but they do not want to my daughter is on her iPad all day and my wife watches four movies and cooking shows in front of in the front room away from me. So I go for a drive just to get out of the house during the week. I ask to do things. When the answer is no, I go hit golf balls and go to a park just to stay away, which I find depressing.
[5:01] We tried marriage counseling. She quit both attempts because the blame did not fall on me. I tried a marriage coach at the beginning of the year and he was having the work on me, which worked for about a month and then we fell back in the same patterns. I'm not sure what I am asking, but I want to feel like I've tried everything I could before giving up. Maybe I already have. I read the statistics on daughters and unrelated men in the house and do not want my daughter I feel that risk is less than seeing her dad run over and depressed.
[5:44] I'm 54 and in good shape, so I could start over. But I owe it to my daughter to do what I can. The relationship has been damaged enough that I'm not sure how much she would want to see me and have been so undercut by my wife that there's no real say in the house. Love your call, Lynn, and was hoping I could see what I'm missing.
[6:12] Again, I'm really, really sorry to hear this. it's very very tough very tough situation so uh before we get to the marriage stuff tell me a little bit about your parents relationship your your life as a child and so on.
[6:24] Um my parents um still married um they fight a little bit um but not not crazy um i guess my dad kind of, not not bullies her but he gets aggravated with her every now and then and that comes across and she does the same um it wasn't like bad bad but there was a little bit of that um, i know you're big on spanking i mean i was spanked as a kid but it wasn't wasn't like beatings or anything it was random or it wasn't random it was uh rare, um it was more of the threat that was there uh i have uh two brothers um one died in a car wreck one in high school and uh the other one's younger than me um we're brothers so we fought all the time really and it was pretty much the older brother and the younger brother um fighting me because the younger brothers are going to side with who's going to win. I don't know. Anything further you want on that or need?
[7:41] How old were you when you met your wife?
[7:45] Um, so it was 12 years ago, so I was 54 now, so 42.
[7:53] Okay. Tell me a little bit about the, you know, 20 plus years of dating prior to meeting your wife.
[7:59] Um, so, um, I don't know, uh, during high school, not a lot of dating in college. Um, we would go out, uh, I, I pretty much was very promiscuous. Um after uh college i even through my 20s i was pretty much dating a lot uh got married um in my 30s that did not work out and uh started dating again and wasn't you know i'm a little older so not not dating as much but still dating a fair amount okay.
[8:37] Tell me a bit about your first marriage.
[8:38] Uh so um we were we dated for a little while um she said she was pregnant uh so i proposed turns out either she had a miscarriage or she wasn't pregnant i don't know which um found out before we got married but, I don't know I thought I was a nice guy and could you know deal with whatever and it turns out I could not it was a lot of accusations and jealousy on her part and yeah, She'd been married several times before, so she was dealing with a lot of, I guess, trauma that was not processed.
[9:27] And were there red flags with your first wife sort of looking back when you met?
[9:32] Oh, yeah. Oh, there was a ton of red flags. I mean, she was beautiful and she could, you know, I guess you've heard, I guess the more beautiful, the crazier. It was she was definitely uh um definitely some red flags uh we'd go on trips or we went on one of the first trips we went on uh she accused me of looking at some other girl that was in the uh on the trip with not with us but there and uh i wasn't uh but you know it's still escalating to a huge fight how.
[10:14] Quickly did things escalate from there.
[10:15] Um so we dated uh probably seven eight months and then uh then the pregnancy thing happens and then then we got married uh i don't know probably four months after that so it was it was fairly quick um sorry.
[10:36] Was it was it on the honeymoon that she thought you were looking at or was it just the first vacation that she thought you were looking at other girls.
[10:41] It was both both okay it was bugs yeah so.
[10:45] There's a kind of jealousy thing going on right for both.
[10:49] Yeah it was not yeah uh the my first wife yeah the my current wife she's not really that jealous i guess but because of my first wife i'm very conscious about it, So I, you know, like, I don't go out of my way to talk to any women. And I try not to, you know, when I'm playing with my daughter, I give the phone numbers that I get to her so she can set up play dates and that kind of thing.
[11:19] Right. Okay. Got it. And what's your rough body count?
[11:30] It's fairly significant. At least 50.
[11:37] Probably and with regards to the women that you slept with do you think that most of the women, wanted to have a relationship with you or was that um you know kind of mutually understood one i.
[11:54] Stand stuff yeah i've never yeah i'd never let anybody at home i mean it was always kind of mutual okay and a lot of those you know in college you're out drinking and stuff like that um and it yeah so there was there was no attempt to lead anybody home.
[12:11] Okay tell me a little bit about your history with drinking.
[12:15] Um in college uh i didn't really drink that much in high school um so get to college and uh i drank pretty significantly, uh did pretty much up until uh probably got probably getting getting getting married um i probably was you know probably i was definitely more than average um, but really kind of cut it off i guess about the time we were i started dating and getting married um this last time okay.
[12:53] And how close are you to your parents.
[12:58] Um i try and talk to them once a week uh, you know it it's mostly service level stuff but you know they are there supporting me and uh, they uh you know it is a good relationship yeah okay.
[13:23] And how's your brother doing.
[13:25] Uh he's doing pretty good uh he's uh i don't know he's been married uh he got married uh shortly after college and he's stuck with his wife uh pretty much the whole time where do you think your promiscuity comes from, I don't really know. I think it's more out of boredom and loneliness. Something to do is kind of what the group that I was hanging around, that's what we did.
[14:02] Did you have any early exposure to pornography?
[14:06] Not really. When I was a kid, it wasn't like it is now where you can go look. You know you'd have to go buy dirty magazines and stuff like that um which i never really did um i mean maybe i saw it once or twice but nothing nothing crazy did.
[14:28] Your parents talk to you about romance dating relationships sexuality i'm just trying to sort of figure out because, it's almost like the default position is promiscuity for men if you can get away with it but are your parents religious did they teach you anything about sexual restraint or or pair bonding or anything like that.
[14:48] Um they are religious uh more so now than when we were kids uh the talk that i did have with my dad was after i was in college and it was basically you know where kids come from don't have one, That's it? That was pretty much the discussion is, yeah, no, no, don't, don't, don't have an out-of-wedlock kid.
[15:22] Okay. And when did you first start dating?
[15:28] I dated a couple of girls in high school. So I was probably 16, 17, somewhere around in there.
[15:39] Okay.
[15:40] But it was service level dating it was you know go here do stuff and that was about it did.
[15:46] Your parents talk to you about dating and how to have a relationship or what to look for or how to make it last or how to resolve conflicts or did they give you any kind of training on that.
[16:00] Uh no no we never really talked about that.
[16:04] I mean what kind of Christians are they.
[16:10] Yeah um yeah uh they definitely could have did better um as far as that goes did better.
[16:18] They didn't virtually nothing.
[16:23] Yeah yeah there was yeah there was yeah there was really nothing um yeah there was no no guidance as far as dating or anything. Yeah, just...
[16:43] Sorry, I'm not sure if you've done your thought.
[16:46] Yeah, yeah, I mean, I just didn't know where to go.
[16:49] Yeah, I mean, you're right. I mean, what do you think of that?
[16:55] Um. I definitely would not do it with my daughter, but I just think that's the way things were back then.
[17:05] No, no, no, that's not it. No, Christians have been teaching their children about romantic and sexual morality since Jesus' time?
[17:17] Um, maybe it was uncomfortable. Um, yeah, um, I'm struggling for, for why, but But I can't think of what it is.
[17:44] Do you know if they talked to your brother about it? I guess you wouldn't know if they'd had private conversations. Did he ever mention anything like that?
[17:51] No, I'm pretty sure they didn't. It was pretty much the same, him and me, I assume.
[17:57] Okay. But your parents did spank, right?
[18:02] Yes, yes. But it was rare, maybe a couple times. um but it was there was threats of of you know what your dad gets home that kind of stuff.
[18:13] And so for what kind of behavior would you get punished or threatened.
[18:20] Um i do remember me and my brothers fighting in a car um and kicking the emergency brake or the gear shifter and we rolled down a hill and wrecked it um and so i they blamed it on me, I'm not real sure I did it, but it was so long ago, but I did get spanked for that. Um... That was the one, I guess, the specifics thing that I can remember.
[18:53] Okay, but what about other kinds of punishments or maybe verbal discipline or something like that?
[19:05] They would, you know, you can tell by my accent, I'm from the South, so it was very yes ma'am, no ma'am, that kind of talk.
[19:16] You mean like being polite and respectful?
[19:19] Yeah, being very polite, very respectful. I guess whenever the adults are talking, the kids should be quite quiet. But it was mostly if things got out of hand, it was wait till your dad gets home and he'll straight it out. Um, usually that we were, you know, the, the problems would be me and my brothers would fight. So it was mostly just trying to get us apart more than, than, than yelling at us, you know, just, y'all got to, you know, stop that kind of stuff.
[20:03] Okay. And how often would your parents get upset with your behavior, say in a given week or month?
[20:12] Um it was probably every couple months would something would would go um so it wasn't it wasn't often we were you know we were pretty well-behaved kids and so there was no it wasn't a lot of a lot of times um a lot of problems uh it was probably once every couple months.
[20:35] So maybe three or four times a year, your parents would correct you on something.
[20:41] Did I remember that was significant enough to where I would remember, you know, um, remember it. Um, I, I don't remember like a lot of the corrections. I don't know. I mean, it, it just seems like, you know, if it wasn't something fantastic, I don't remember it a lot of times.
[21:05] Of course I mean I'm not asking you to remember.
[21:08] Things that you.
[21:09] Don't remember but I mean you're a dad right I mean do you think that that level of course correction for your children is good.
[21:20] If she was fighting with somebody I can see kind of not yelling but you know I got to stop her and pull her off and that kind of stuff um, I I don't spank my kid, never have, but I'm really, um, I'm probably a little closer to more being a friend than a dad, to tell you the truth, um, So it's not great that I would get corrected, but I don't know what else they would have done, to tell you the truth, with three of us, if we're fighting all the time.
[22:04] So, yeah, tell me a bit about the fights. What would you guys fight about?
[22:09] Just, you know, your kids, you're going to fight, or our boys would. Um you know he stole this i stole that um you're not really stealing anything you know they misplaced or you misplaced it and you you know you use that as an excuse to to do it um, i don't there was no common theme but behind any of the fights it was mostly uh my my older brother He was a little, he was kind of causing problems a little bit. So, he and my younger brother, they would start fights with me. I don't know. Well, I do remember we were walking, or I was picking up Lego sticks, and one of them was broke, and he tripped me, just, you know, just tripped me in it, but it went into my eye, no real permanent damage, but definitely, he got whipped pretty good for that one.
[23:34] Yeah I know that's one of the fights that I it wasn't really a fight it was more of a you know push you down or trip you up, kind of a thing.
[23:48] And what I'm sorry to dig this up but what happened with your brother who died in the cockroach.
[23:56] Um he'd uh not been driving very long and uh he swerved around a car and then when he came back into the uh other lane his tire went off the uh the side of the road which i guess it kind of fell and jolted him a little bit so he swerved um back into an oncoming truck oh.
[24:17] Gosh okay and he was uh killed instantly.
[24:23] Um the guy riding with him was killed instantly i think he he lived for i don't know maybe an hour or two after that okay.
[24:30] I'm sorry about that it's very tough all right now do you believe that it's kind of inevitable that siblings are going to fight in this kind of way.
[24:42] Um i just assume that's what boys do um i never really give it much thought since uh you know i've got a girl and she's that's the last thing she'll ever do yeah.
[24:56] It's not inevitable that boys end up fighting in this kind of way i know families where there's like three boys, and the sister and the boys all get along they don't fight they support each other they help each other they teach each other chess and help each other on playgrounds and it's not it's not inevitable and and how close would you say you were with your parents growing up.
[25:22] Um pretty close i guess um my dad was a coach so you know we played a lot of sports and he was always the coach uh so we had a lake house so we every weekend we'd all go to the lake, so we were fairly tight hit i think so.
[25:44] You could go to your dad if you had sort of personal problems problems at school bullying or anything like that.
[25:53] Um i don't remember ever doing it um but if somebody was bullying me the reply or somebody ever hit me the reply would have been you know get them back right.
[26:04] How did you how did your parents relate to you and your brother's sighting all the time?
[26:12] Um... They just tried to calm us down and um i i don't remember ever you know um any, anything ever coming of it um you know it was basically get us separated and, and calm us down and uh i don't i don't remember you know they probably did say you know y'all shouldn't be fighting um uh you know when we go out to places you know you'd always get the uh, we're, you know, we're out in public. Y'all better not be doing this kind of stuff. You know, get those kind of warnings. But as far as how to stop them or anything like that, there was, it was, you know, just, just in, in, in the fight that we were in and, and like, and, you know, just wait for the next one, I guess. I, I don't, you know, I don't know what there were, their plan was besides that.
[27:14] Right. Okay. And would you say that your parents displayed any particular skills with regards to parenting?
[27:23] Um, they were loving, um, at least I think they were, um, they were always, you know, there wasn't, there were there, um, as far as, uh, not having to worry about them. I think they're you know they provided good examples I guess as far as maybe outside of that portion of the parody um I think they were good people uh, i'm not real sure past that though i guess well.
[28:04] I mean we have to be kind of rigorous rep what do you mean by good people i'm not saying they weren't i just want to know what your definition is.
[28:12] Um they held good jobs they you know they they said they were going to do something they would do it uh they helped other people i guess uh um they were well liked uh, I don't know, my dad was a coach, so he was kind of a role model probably for a lot of kids. I guess that's it.
[28:43] And your mom?
[28:45] She was a school teacher. She was always very a little probably overprotective of me. I guess uh she was uh yeah she was she was you know um had a lot of friends uh people liked her uh, i'm not sure you know what what else.
[29:15] Okay so where did you get your sense of dating or relationship or sexual morality from i mean did you think about that or were you just like half-drunk and looking for opportunities to have sex?
[29:32] Yeah, just half-drunk, looking for opportunities. I don't, you know, nobody ever really modeled it for me. I was getting to college.
[29:43] What your parents did to somebody, right? I mean, they were monogamous and stayed together.
[29:48] Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, they definitely modeled better behavior than what I did, 100%.
[29:56] Okay, so where was the gap? Where did that gap come from?
[30:01] I think it was just going to college and seeing what was out there um i was i don't know uh when i guess in high school you know i'm living under their roof so i'm not really going out and, doing any anything crazy uh um so there was a lot less opportunities to today right.
[30:27] Okay uh do you think that, your dating strategy was it i mean you got married uh sorry how old were you when married your first wife.
[30:40] Uh i was 30 probably 32 33 somewhere around in there okay.
[30:46] So it's a good like 15 years or whatever since you started dating and.
[30:51] What was your.
[30:51] Longest relationship prior to that.
[30:55] Uh probably about a year i know at the end of college i dated that girl for probably about a year um so yeah probably a year and.
[31:06] Who was this give me the characteristics of the sanest woman you dated the most.
[31:12] Mature and the most wise probably the uh girl that was coming at our college um she was fairly calm um she really didn't go out and do much uh she uh, she was she was pretty smart uh, and that guy is she was attractive uh, She got along with me for the most part. Yeah, I guess that was her characteristics.
[31:58] Okay. And what happened with that relationship?
[32:04] Um, we went on a trip and, uh, it, she, she kind of became not cleanly, but kind of naggy. And, um, I was, I, I just didn't, wasn't willing to put up with it.
[32:26] Naggy about what? Naggy about what?
[32:30] Uh, I don't, it, so it was like a party we were going to and, uh, she didn't want to hang around with some of the people and it just created a lot of drama that I didn't think needed to be there. And, uh, so after that trip, we never spoke to each other again.
[32:52] And did you break up at the end of the trip or shortly thereafter?
[32:55] After um it was pretty much evident during the during the trip that it was over but we had to drive home so it was a long drive home yeah.
[33:08] I bet i bet hmm okay and how much did your parents know about your dating life your dating history your promiscuity and so on.
[33:17] Uh not really at all i kind and kept all that stuff away from them. I never wanted to let them down, so I would not tell them about any of that stuff. They didn't even really meet my first wife until we proposed and I guess were going out there to get married because they wanted a formal wedding, so they kind of planned it and we went up there. So they didn't they did it even better before that so.
[33:53] Did your parents ask you about your dating in your teens and 20s and early 30s.
[33:59] Um no they never did um come on man yeah say this like what.
[34:08] Are you talking like does this does this seem totally normal to you am i just out of on all them here.
[34:13] Well i felt like i should keep it from them too to tell you the truth um i i don't know why uh but i don't know if if you know a girl's not going to be around i would i would never bring her up or anything like that because you know she's not going to be around okay.
[34:34] You say you have a good relationship with your parents i'm not going to disagree with that but if you have a good relationship say with your daughter could you imagine her sailing into her 30s and you have no idea who she's dating.
[34:45] Yeah that would be a problem for me yeah so help me understand the difference here, um i'm a guy i guess um so less chance of coming home with a with a with a pregnancy that you'd have to deal with i mean you still would but not to the extent but there is no difference um, yeah there is no big difference I probably should have had more talks about it with them.
[35:15] Well they should ask right it's their job.
[35:17] Yeah yeah yeah they should have.
[35:24] Okay. Um, and what about your working life in your twenties?
[35:31] Um, so after college, I got a job, I was basically driving a forklift, uh, um, at a place and, uh, I don't know, I wasn't making great money, but I was, you know, it, my lifestyle didn't require a lot. And I had a couple people living with me, so money was really no problem. After that, I went to another company in another city, basically to be closer to friends. And then they laid me off from that job, and that went to Mexico. And then from there, another buddy of mine was starting up a company, and I went to work for him in Florida or in another state. And, uh, um, we did that for a year or two and money was not great, but there was a lot of potential that, uh, fell through, uh, when, when the market, um, the housing market crashed in 08.
[36:32] Right, right. Okay. And how's your career gone since then?
[36:36] Um, since then, um, so I got a job while I was there, um, like a W2 job. and money was okay. It's not great. They got bought by a company in another state and they, I could have stayed where I was at and been okay, but I figured I needed a change or I would just keep doing what I was doing, which was going out and not really having any future plans. Uh, so I came out and, uh, uh, that company stayed with them for about nine years and then, uh, they laid me off and went to Mexico and then, um, had a couple of jobs since then. And the last one I'm in, I'm making pretty good money and I've been here probably six, seven years, six years, probably. Yeah.
[37:44] So tell me a little bit about this seatbelt thing. That's interesting. Um, that, that would be.
[37:50] Sort of.
[37:50] A foundational crack in in your relationship with your daughter.
[37:53] Um yeah so um, i guess uh i don't really like wearing a seat belt i don't really care but i don't like being told, you know you you know you have to wear your seat belt um and it only really got annoying when every time i'd get in the car my daughter would scream seat belt and so then i would uh, I put it on for a while, and this went on for years, where my wife would say it, and then my daughter picked it up. And so now, every time I get in the car, she's screaming seatbelt. And one day, I just had enough of it, and I'm like, I'm done with this, no more.
[38:47] Could I handle it better? 100%. Um, and I guess on another level, so months later, um, one of her friends was in there and, you know, said something about, uh, me wearing my seatbelt. I'm told my daughter, you got to quit talking about this. This is done. Um, and then that girl who had been her friend for several years has not really been back since then. So was it me? Probably. Um, but I, you know, I, I, I don't know.
[39:25] I mean, it sounds, I'm trying to understand the transition between you're very close with your daughter early on when your wife was going through the postpartum and you're sort of up all night with your daughter when you lost the 30 pounds and so on. So how did things drift so much?
[39:38] So, um, that was, um, I think that, that did it. Um, also, um, I, this is, my wife would start kind of picking fights with me. I think she had probably contacted a lawyer. I know she'd contacted a lawyer, but I don't remember whether she was picking fights before or after. And I don't, I don't want to argue in front of my kid. And it aggravates me that I had to argue in front of my kid. So i'd get agitated i wouldn't yell but i would raise my voice a little bit um and i think that scared my daughter too um, um and they're they're i guess um when we were um during covid when there was problems i'd go downstairs for weeks at a time because there's a covid scare um i'm not feeling well i'll go down and, you know, hide out in the basement for a couple weeks.
[40:44] So I kind of lost touch that way. And then there was a year basically where I was just sleeping in the basement, which further distanced me from my daughter. And there was some depression at one point where I was going to bed at five o'clock because, you know, what's the point? Uh now probably i was probably another six months so i think all those things combined, kind of killed kind of killed the relationship you.
[41:18] Killed the relationship so give me those steps.
[41:21] Well i not killed it but reduced it to where and i also i think she's getting older so you know i'm like hey let's go let's go to the park and unless one of her friends is there she doesn't want to go yeah and yeah i i guess uh i'm not you know what when we were younger i would play with her you know and uh as as she gets older i kind of let her play with the other kids um and kind of step back and i think she still kind of wants somebody to play with her at times uh, uh so uh i i think that not having another friend there um kills her desire to go out and do other things which leaves me kind of out like old and her just sitting on the on the couch with her with her ipad right.
[42:20] And what's her relationship like with her mother.
[42:24] Um, so her mother sits in there with her and, uh, they're, they're, I mean, basically the, the, I don't know, the pendulum pinion on this one for me kind of being in, you know, doing everything for the kids. And kind of they hide out in the front room and you know she watches tv and uh my daughter plays on the ipad and i i'm just sitting there going this is not healthy and i i leave because you know i i don't see the point being there right.
[43:00] Okay and has she become i mean more aligned with her mother because it sounds like her mother is like yelling at you about the seatbelts and then your daughter's yelling at you about the seatbelts is that are they kind of aligning that way in their perspective of you.
[43:13] Yeah they're both or they're both um together and it's me kind of on the outside looking in and.
[43:23] When did that most begin to change.
[43:24] Uh it's probably about three three years ago i'm guess i'm guessing um during the covet time probably when i was downstairs um so i you know i disappeared for a good year just kind of, staying staying away from them um because you know i i don't know i i would say good morning and good night but i would pretty much leave because um because i'm just kind of there all alone not really doing anything uh, So it was probably about four years ago and it's just kind of one little thing kind of after another, nothing big, nothing major, just steady degradation.
[44:18] Right. So tell me a little bit about this, this COVID thing and your wife's perspective on this. I assume she got vaccinated, your daughter maybe, and you didn't. So how did the COVID stuff ripple through your household?
[44:30] So she was very scared of it which at first I was a little scared of it too, and I listened to a lot of conspiracy people and they were very thinking it was a scam well at first they thought that the Chinese were coming to kill us all and then it turned into it was a scam, and that's kind of where I, fell on it because they had a bunch of doctors come in and talk about it. So I was very much anti just about everything COVID. I wouldn't wear a mask. I didn't get vaccinated. We also didn't go anywhere during this time because I would not wear a mask.
[45:17] She never said she got vaccinated, but I can almost guarantee she did. She also got diabetes about that time. Result of it, I don't know because I don't know the timing just seems suspicious to me. Her father got COVID and I guess he was in really bad health to begin with. A cold to kill you, basically. It's the kind of health he was in. So they had a non-vaxxed nurse who lied on the application saying she was vaxxed come in and administer some stuff for it and then they blame her for giving them COVID, which now the non-vaxxed which would have been me I think she kind of blames me for it, And we did go to like counseling and stuff like that during that time. Sorry, go ahead.
[46:30] I wasn't sure if you finished your thought. Go ahead.
[46:33] Oh, yeah. So we did go to counseling during that time. And the counselor not really taking my side, but just kind of poking her, saying what else should he have done kind of questions. And then we never went to that counselor again.
[46:51] Did you sort of both mutually agree that it wasn't productive.
[46:55] No um it was pretty much i was told that we're not doing that anymore and like okay uh, so no it was it was definitely not mutual um we did try another counselor and uh, she didn't like her for it that one she just didn't like and then um she said we're not I wanted it, so we never went back to that one.
[47:23] After her DUI, she was, I don't know if it's court mandated or court endorsed or whatever, but she started going to another one. The DUI was probably, I don't know, they were still swimming last year, so towards the end of the year, though. Um so the the the talk was you know uh once once you're done with that we need to go to council we need to get this fixed um but there's been no no talk since then um since i guess right before she got got the d well i guess right after she got the dui um that that was kind of what we were, discussing and that was probably at the end of the year.
[48:17] And how serious was the DEI? Sorry, DUI?
[48:22] Um... So they took her to jail i went and bailed her out um and then uh she had to spend because there was minors involved there were two kids um in the car and she ran over something i don't know what um maybe the sign in the middle of the road um and somebody had followed her home, and called the cops. So it was pretty bad. Yeah, it was. But I didn't notice her slurring her words. I didn't notice anything that would have made me assume she was drunk outside of she ran over something and did a little, I mean, very minor damage to the car and having somebody follow her home and call the cops on her. Uh i would i would have probably never known it if that if that happened okay.
[49:25] Now what has been the sort of sexual arc or frequency in your relationship over the last 12 years.
[49:30] Um at first it was good i mean after the kid it kind of died off which fine i i you know we got a kid i i'm i'm okay with that um it i guess it came back uh after for for a little while, and then the covid thing hit and we were kind of on opposite sides of that and i i slept in the basement for a year um so there was really nothing um no contact at that point um when it came back i guess there there was some um but like currently it was probably the beginning of february the last time uh there was any um and before you know and i guess i had started like a daily coach um about that time and it seemed to work for about a month but before that it was probably another four or five months um so in the last year there's been one good month.
[50:39] Okay and does does she talk about it as something that's an issue or does she seem relatively comfortable with it or where's that.
[50:49] Um, there really is no talk. Um, our, they kind of sit up in the front room and, you know, there's good morning and good night. And, uh, there's not a lot of talk besides that. Um, I did, I don't know, maybe a month ago, tell her, I was like, I'm not going to be celibate for much longer. Um, and I don't know what that means. I don't know if that, you know, it means I got to get a divorce or, I mean, that but i just know it ain't happening much longer um and i and i told her um she didn't really respond and uh nothing's really changed and.
[51:30] When was the last time that she pursued you to try and help or repair things in the relationship.
[51:34] Um it's been a long time um, we are doing a trip that she did set up uh and got my parents uh flights and all that kind of stuff um so i mean that that is nice and that is sorry with your parents.
[51:58] What do you mean.
[52:00] So well her parent or her mom and her mom's boyfriend are gonna come visit from another country in a month and they're gonna stay for a couple months and during that time we're gonna to go on a trip and so she she booked it all for my parents and our families um and kind of set it up um which is nice but i really think the reason why she did it is so that she doesn't have to go to my parents and sit on the couch for a week or let my daughter go with me and miss her for a week, So I guess it's nice, but it's, I, I don't really think that it was nice to be nice.
[52:42] Right. And how have you guys maintained sort of weights and, and exercise? You said you're still in good shape at 54, but, um, how's your wife doing with that?
[52:55] Um, she's gotten heavier. Um, she doesn't really do any exercises. Um, she's pretty sedentary. um and it's uh it's not good um but you know as bad as things are that's the last thing i can talk about right.
[53:19] Okay and does she have an income.
[53:21] Yeah we both were we both got pretty good jobs um, uh i don't know she's probably a little over 100 i'm a little under 100 um and she did at one point tell me you need to get another job so we can make more money and at that time i was like um i want to be here for my daughter i i've got a low stress job uh i don't want to i don't want to look for another one um now i'm you know now i don't care considering how how uh my relationships deteriorated but at the time i thought i would get to spend a lot more time with my daughter by not getting another job.
[54:05] And what does she want to buy with the extra money, do you know?
[54:10] Nothing in particular. We're debt-free 100%. We own our own home. We own both our cars. So there is no financial need for it. I mean, outside of maybe retirement, we, you know, we couldn't use something for that. But there is no, it's not a financial need. You know, maybe it could be a status um need i i don't know so.
[54:36] Hmm when was the last time that your wife seems to want to seek out your, um company.
[54:50] Uh it's been years um yeah it's been it's it's been years uh, I can't remember one. It's probably been a couple years. I do. She would wear, I guess, sexy stuff at one point, probably like two or three years ago to entice me. Yeah. But, I don't know, we got a kid in our bed that, you know, there is no enticing when you have a kid that's in bed with you for nine years. I mean, currently, they're sleeping in another room because I told them that it's not healthy for my daughter to do this. I mean, it's not healthy for us, but it's worse for her, I think. Um so yeah it's it's been probably two or three years since since she's actually maybe three or four it's it's been a long time since she initiated anything.
[56:00] Yeah i mean i'm not just talking sex but just in terms of like desire for your company pleasure in your conversation that kind of stuff.
[56:09] It is it's been a it's probably about the same amount of time, um i mean we will do stuff together but it's mostly do stuff for the daughter not not for us like what um i go i don't know there's like a themed restaurant we went to a couple times that my daughter likes um before i don't know probably a couple years ago we she would set up uh um dates where we would go um to like a fair or some kind of uh um festival um that they had but it's been it's been a couple years since we we did those but my wife was always good about setting them up before and and.
[57:01] If you were i'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't i don't know but if you were to suggest something like that how do you think it would go.
[57:08] I suggest something every weekend i'm constantly trying to find anything for us to do together um and so usually what will happen is i'll go to my daughter and say do you want to do this i think it'll be fun and she'll kind of do the no no and uh, what she's looking for is her mom to kind of give her the okay to go it's kind of what it seems like to me um i don't know probably three or four months ago i did suggest one thing and they said both of them said no and then turned around and went to the event that i invited them to without me and i'm like that's probably been a year ago yeah yeah and it was you know i'm, pretty aggravated about the situation i didn't say that to them but uh their mother who does not speak English, was in the house, during that time, and, she could see that I was irate about it, and she tried to ask me if everything's okay, but she didn't speak English, so I'm like, yeah, everything's fine. But shortly after that, she tried to leave the country, go back home.
[58:30] Wait, your wife?
[58:32] No, the mother-in-law. because yeah she just didn't want to be around it.
[58:38] It being your marriage.
[58:41] No the unhappiness the you know the, not drama but the you can just see that there was problems that she didn't want to be around, I mean she knew that I was aggravated about something she couldn't figure it out because she didn't speak English but, because of that she she she was going to leave i think i think my wife talked her into staying for an egg saying till the normal time which is only like a week away but she did try to leave early because of it so.
[59:18] What's the case for staying in the marriage.
[59:22] Uh my daughter um i don't want her to be raised by another man uh, outside that i don't don't know i mean i guess financially it's it it would be good to stay in marriage uh but i don't have a good case of yes we need to it seems like i'm the only one who really wants to fix it so.
[59:54] Other than trying to find things that you guys can do together and doing some counseling and so on what else have you done to try and repair or fix things.
[1:00:07] Um, I don't, I mean, I've tried to like invite her to lunch and stuff like that. And usually I, I, you know, there, there is no, and I've, I've seen during the lunch, we've kind of worked through some of these problems, but she doesn't really want to. And, uh, and I don't push it. I guess I should push it, but I don't, um, you know, we did try the counseling and I, I just try to. Invited them to do things. I don't know. I bought like a little, um, card game where you ask the family questions and, got my daughter started to open it up, got my daughter to start playing and try and invite my wife who said, I don't want to play, which then in turn means my daughter doesn't want to play. And now I've got the car sitting here going, um, you know, this was supposed to be family bonding, but it's not. So i just put them away and just went about did something else.
[1:01:13] And i mean how's your heart doing how's your soul how's your spine.
[1:01:23] Um in the last i don't know year i've uh just been thinking i need to get out and start dating again so i've kind of been getting prepared especially in the last i don't know six months you know i started exercising fairly regularly um lost a little weight uh, trying to be more friendly when i go places to people uh, so yeah i'm just kind of getting prepared for when i get single.
[1:01:56] Right right okay and do you have a sort of decision point or a time point at which you want to make a decision or is this called part of that?
[1:02:08] Um, so her parents or mom and her mom's boyfriend are coming in town the next, I don't know when she didn't even give me a day, but it's got to be in the next month. And I guess they're going to stay for a couple months and I don't want to do it during that. So I'm kind of going to give it, you know, three or four months and see if it improves. And if it doesn't, then, then make my decision.
[1:02:34] And your wife is aware of course if you've talked to her about your unhappiness and and what you want to have changed and so on right.
[1:02:40] Um she knows i'm unhappy uh but i i don't think we've ever got into specifics of what i want change but i do invite them to do things um and you know just trying to have a normal family but um it doesn't seem reciprocated what.
[1:03:03] Doesn't seem or isn't.
[1:03:05] It is it is it isn't reciprocating it is it's not acted upon either.
[1:03:12] Right i mean i really really really sympathize it's a very very tough situation because it's not like you guys are throwing crockpots at each other or anything like that so it's not like something which is i guess the danger is is has your wife stopped drinking.
[1:03:30] Um so before that she was drinking a fair amount because i'd go to bed and um so i wasn't even aware really for a good portion of it she was drinking as much as she was but you know you would you'd see the bottle a lot emptier than it was the day before and you're like, you know what what's going on i was kind of thinking she might be going out and you know because i'm pretty heavy sleeper so i was thinking maybe she was you know leaving the house and going and and doing stuff i don't think that's the case now but it you know i mean why else should be drinking that alone that much um so i'm guessing she's depressed and that's how she was dealing with it and.
[1:04:12] How long ago was the DUI.
[1:04:13] Uh it was uh the end of swim season last year.
[1:04:21] I'm not sure what that means. They mean the end of school season?
[1:04:25] Swim. So they were, they were at a pool. So I don't, I don't know exactly which month. So maybe August you can swim in. Oh, it's probably August timeframe.
[1:04:34] Sorry. I was on the swim team. I thought you meant swim team season. Okay. My, my bad. Okay. And do you know, is she, has she committed to, um, not, not drinking? Cause she, obviously she can't be drinking and driving, right?
[1:04:48] Yeah. So, um, she's pretty much cut it out um i yeah it's she's not drinking really anymore um, so at least i haven't noticed it um and when we do go if we do go someplace it's um she's not drinking which i don't think maybe maybe we've been to one or two um uh since then um but yeah she's she's she's cut out the drinking and.
[1:05:19] How close would you say you are with your brother does he know much about any of this.
[1:05:22] Um so i've told my parents uh i don't know, probably three four years ago i bought we during covid we were down to one car and uh because things got so bad i bought another one just because i'm like well if i leave i gotta have something um so probably about four years ago i bought one I'd kind of told my parents about what was going on and uh so then they told him uh and he probably called me about it maybe a year or two ago so he he knows um but we don't uh we don't talk that much uh, I don't know, we maybe talked two or three times. We talked during the holidays when we see each other, but as far as phone calls, maybe once or twice a year.
[1:06:18] And he waited a year or two before talking to you about the problems in your marriage that he heard from your parents?
[1:06:23] I don't know when they told him. I think as soon as he found out, he did give me a call, but they might not have told him the initial, because I've told them when I bought the car kind of what i was thinking and then maybe a year or two later i'm still kind of telling them the same stuff and it's not like i it's not something you want to talk about with them so you know you don't you don't you only tell them like once a year um and i don't know my dad did say you know you need to leave if you're gonna leave um maybe a year or so ago uh so he's he's you know he he did at least talk to me about it uh and that was probably about the same time that uh my brother had called me i guess maybe that that's probably when it was yeah okay.
[1:07:19] All right well listen i appreciate i appreciate all that information thank you for the the the data um my my instinct or my urge is to be very emphatic here but i don't want to short circuit you so i want to know your level of comfort with my emphasis.
[1:07:36] Um yeah i wanted to be neon as possible i don't want to miss something okay so yeah tell me whatever you whatever you think i can i i need to know.
[1:07:49] Well i mean my my god man who are you close to, Who have you ever been close to?
[1:07:58] I was pretty close with my friends through college and stuff. I was very, very close to them. That's really probably about it.
[1:08:11] You were a promiscuous social alcoholic.
[1:08:16] Yeah. Yes, I was.
[1:08:19] Did they call you out on that?
[1:08:22] No, they were all doing the same thing.
[1:08:24] So then you can't be close. You might've had a lot of shared experiences, a lot of shared drinks, maybe even shared some women. I don't know, but it's not the same as being close.
[1:08:37] Yeah um yeah but that's i don't know that's that's what i had um i you know that i thought that was being close at the time um we still i still go see you know we we just did a guy's trip um a month or so ago so we're still i guess not really telling each other our problems but at least going out and having fun once every couple years okay.
[1:09:04] Do you do you know what's going on with your friends lives and their marriages and their hearts and health issues or whatever.
[1:09:13] Um i did find out some health issues on one of them when i was there um but like i don't talk to them we don't get we don't have calls and stuff like that basically we got a tech stream and uh that's about it.
[1:09:30] Do you do you do you do you get a sense of just how distant you are from people.
[1:09:39] Yeah yeah i i i definitely do uh do now um as everything's kind of you know as we get further wife. Hey, you know, everybody's married and they're living on the other side of the country. Yeah, I feel very distant.
[1:09:56] Come on, come on, come on. Come on. Don't shallow out of me, bro, too much. I'm not talking about geography.
[1:10:02] Yeah, but yes, I don't have anyone who I really go out with and do things with. No, it's just kind of me.
[1:10:15] I'm not talking about going out and doing things with.
[1:10:18] And i don't have anybody really talking with either i mean i it i you know i can't i i did have one friend who recently moved out um that i went to college with and uh i don't know we we're going out and you know watching sports but it's not anything, more than surface level.
[1:10:43] Right I mean your parents when you were growing up were incredibly distant from you that's sort of what I was talking about or asking about earlier right, With regards to, did they teach you any goddamn morals at all? Anything about how to live?
[1:11:04] I mean, you know, the don't steal, don't hurt people, be a nice person. They get that kind of stuff.
[1:11:12] Were you in great danger of becoming a cat burglar and a guy who beats people up?
[1:11:19] No, not really, but...
[1:11:21] Okay, so that's not a particular problem.
[1:11:24] Yeah.
[1:11:25] But they sure as hell didn't invest in you as an individual. And they sure as hell didn't get to know you as a person and work to protect your heart and mind and soul going forward. And they did not intervene as you spiraled into promiscuity and social alcoholism. And they did not even ask you who you were dating or what was going on. And they didn't warn you about red flags. in people and you didn't even say to them yeah and i was on this date but this i went and went on vacation with this woman and she accused me of looking at another woman and your father would then say boy son that's a real red flag we need to sit down with her and we need to work this out we need to keep you safe, yeah how long how long did you date your wife my current wife before you get um.
[1:12:17] We dated about a year okay.
[1:12:20] And did you ever share anything about that year with your parents before you got married or any of your concerns about the red flags.
[1:12:30] Um no because i i don't know i just didn't feel good about sharing it with them i.
[1:12:42] And do you know why you didn't feel good about sharing it with them.
[1:12:47] Didn't want to let them down, I guess.
[1:12:49] Nope.
[1:12:50] Nope.
[1:12:51] Nope. Nope. Nope. Why didn't you want to share anything with them?
[1:13:02] Didn't think they cared, maybe?
[1:13:03] Yeah, okay, that's right. No. What evidence? See, I care, so I'm asking questions, right?
[1:13:12] I probably asked you more questions.
[1:13:14] In the last hour 15 than your parents have asked you your entire life am i wrong.
[1:13:23] Yeah um yeah we never really talked about feelings i mean it was always um going to uh i don't know doing basketball or another sport uh, or going to the lake, but it was no real input for me about what we were doing. It was, this is what we're doing.
[1:13:49] Okay, I think you missed what I said.
[1:13:52] Yeah, no, I did get that, yeah, there is no conversations besides surface level stuff.
[1:14:00] Here's how to bounce a ball. Here's how to throw a basket. Here's how to hit a baseball. Oh, son, you got to do your stand as opposed to actually helping you with your real life.
[1:14:27] Yeah yeah i definitely should have.
[1:14:30] No no no no not you should have they should have yeah they definitely they listen to me they should have, they should have shown deep and genuine interest in what you think and feel, and what's best for you so that you don't have to invent the wheel invent the road invent the car just to get anywhere, they're boomers aren't they.
[1:15:07] Yeah they would be boomers right Right.
[1:15:10] And boomers, for whatever, I don't know, it's like something was in the air or something. But boomers are so profoundly disconnected from their own offspring, it's almost kind of shocking.
[1:15:28] Yeah i i just don't think that they talk about that kind of stuff um it's mostly surface level i guess um i don't know if they even talk about it amongst themselves well.
[1:15:42] I don't know either but i will say that you normalize the living hell out of all of this, that you not being interesting to others is a 54 year curse, Because now, right now, you're in a situation where you are uninteresting to your wife and daughter. And how are you supposed to feel interesting to them when you're not even interesting to your own parents or your brother?
[1:16:26] Yeah, I'm older than him, so I probably should have been more interested in him. So I can't blame you to tell them.
[1:16:32] Hang on. Before you start lacerating yourself, right? From what model would you learn how to be interested in people younger than yourself? Like, who would have taught you that?
[1:16:45] Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't have learned anything. I guess there's no way I would have learned it.
[1:16:54] Well, if you want to teach Japanese, somebody has to teach you Japanese, right?
[1:16:58] Yeah. Yeah.
[1:17:02] So tell me, what do you think about what I'm saying?
[1:17:10] Um, I do think that, yeah, not that I don't think I'm uninteresting, but I feel like I have to have a point to everything I'm saying, typically in a conversation.
[1:17:21] So you have to have a point? What do you mean?
[1:17:27] I struggle for conversation just for conversation's sakes and sometimes you just need that to make a conversation go but I've always felt like that there should be a point to whatever I'm saying so, I would think that not being, recognized or or kind of you know let the adults talk kind of still is there a little bit in the back of the the mind going you know shouldn't really talk unless you got something important.
[1:18:10] Well so you feel that you have to provide a value i think that's what you mean by a point like oh here's something interesting or here's something funny or here's something like you have to provide a point uh.
[1:18:22] Yeah you have to provide.
[1:18:23] Some kind of value in in conversation.
[1:18:26] Yeah exactly yes that's that's it it's.
[1:18:29] Like a trade.
[1:18:30] Yes right.
[1:18:34] And you have nothing to trade with your wife and daughter at the moment is that right.
[1:18:41] Yeah um yeah i i don't i don't really know what they wanted this but i.
[1:18:50] And what culture is your wife from?
[1:18:55] She's from Russia.
[1:18:56] Russia, okay. I'm sorry, remind me, how did you meet?
[1:19:03] Online. She wasn't like a foreign bride. She lived here, she was an American citizen, and we just met online.
[1:19:13] Okay, right. And I think you said about both the year-long relationship at the end of college in this relationship or this marriage and your first marriage that uh the women were very pretty right yeah.
[1:19:27] Yeah um yeah but yeah yeah very very attractive.
[1:19:33] You kept your hair didn't you.
[1:19:38] What's what's that.
[1:19:39] You kept your hair up.
[1:19:40] Up up until recently and uh as we were doing this call I did notice that the sun was shining in and my head was, was, was shiny. So it's only been recently.
[1:19:52] Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, 54, that's pretty good, right? Yeah. Or bad.
[1:19:56] Yeah.
[1:19:56] Depending on how you measure these things, right?
[1:19:58] Okay.
[1:20:00] All right. So your parents normalized you not being interesting for your own sake, interesting with regards to yourself, yeah i.
[1:20:29] Can i can see that definitely with especially with the you know the adults are talking i'll y'all go somewhere else kind of stuff yeah definitely see that.
[1:20:38] Yeah yeah children should be seen and not heard yeah yeah no i grew up with that i mean that's a bit of a boomer thing You know, my mom was a pretty boomer. She's the greatest generation, but... Okay, so... I think you are very used to people not being interested in you. Just tell me what you think or what's your perspective or what's your opinion. I think that you have to kind of provide value, like a waiter, if that makes sense. Like a waiter, I mean, the waiter will chat with you, of course, right? But the waiter is just trying to make sure you have a decent connection so she gets a good tip or something like that. And then, of course, you're only really chatting with the waitress or waiter because they're going to bring your food and, you know, you might as well have a pleasant experience and interchange because of that, right?
[1:21:33] Yeah. Yeah, that's probably most of my interactions since just being polite to each other just for polite sake and not that deep.
[1:21:46] Right so you have to provide value in an economic sense and that or in a um, trying to think it's sort of like economics but, you have to please the person by being someone other than who you are, that's that's the i think that's the magic formula i'm looking for i think in your mind you have to please the other person by being something other than who you are in your natural state because you know if you have your thoughts and your feelings in your natural state then you are going to chat with people spontaneously have thoughts and they're going to find them of interest they're going to bounce back you know and that's your natural state it's your natural flow right it's the difference between you know a conversation and a comedian the comedian has to write all the jokes, he's got to prepare them, he's got to rehearse them, he's got to get the crowd feedback, he's got to get the timing, he's got to have the practice, he's got to know how to work the mic, right? So a comedian is not in a natural flow state.
[1:22:57] A comedian is in a state of entertainer. And there's nothing wrong with that. I mean, that's what you pay and go and see a comedian for, right? I mean, the first time I was on the Joe Rogan show, I went to see Joe do a show. And, you know, and then seeing Joe do a show and then sitting with Joe at a table. I mean, they're not the same animal. Of course, right? How could they be, right?
[1:23:24] Yeah.
[1:23:26] So... I think for you, you have to be, I mean, I talked about this many years ago in my Robin Williams presentation, the me plus. You can't be you and be a value just into a sort of natural flow state, where you're sort of thinking and speaking and maybe a couple of jokes if they pop into your mind depends on people's level of the general sense of humor but i think i think, that you can't feel both relaxed spontaneous and interesting, yeah you've got to do something you've got to work at it sorry go ahead.
[1:24:13] Yeah i mean if i i don't know if i call somebody it's for a specific hey let's go do this let's let's do something um i don't ever really call anybody just to just to talk.
[1:24:25] So or it's like what you say to your family or you say to your daughter is let's do this and she's like well i'm kind of too old to go to a park just with you and right now you say to your yeah your wife and your daughter let's go this do this event they say no then they end up going on their own so you're in a state of suggesting activities rather than presenting yourself in a natural state.
[1:24:54] Yeah. And they kind of sit in the front room and it's not really conducive to more than two people. And I think that's on purpose to kind of keep me awake, to tell you the truth.
[1:25:07] Well, it's kind of like, I mean, have you ever been on a cruise?
[1:25:11] Yeah. Yeah.
[1:25:13] I always remember the love boat from the 70s, which we watched sometimes. Julie, she was the cruise director. Oh no, the social director or whatever it was, right? Now, the woman who's like, the cruise director or the social director or the activities director i guess this also happens at summer camps or whatever right so julie uh it comes in and she she says oh hey sailors uh hey fellow travelers here's here's a list of all the cool things you could do today on the cruise right and we got a bocce ball on the lido deck we have uh um a friend of mine went on a cruise where they had laser tag uh on one of the decks uh there's an arcade and you go swimming and bowling and whatever right um and she's giving you all these activities now you would not expect julie to come up and say oh man i'm having a really tough day i i i don't really know what i'm doing with my life and you know i feel like i'm just this kind of half plastic entertainment doll like you would you'd be like hang on wait sorry what was happening on the lido deck i mean i guess that's important to you but i'm kind of here for a vacation does that make sense yeah.
[1:26:26] Yeah yeah yeah so i'm i'm more of a tour director versus just being there yeah.
[1:26:33] Right so that's why i asked at the very beginning about your relationship with your parents and you said it's pretty good, Bro, it's not. You guys barely talk about anything. And they conditioned you, to believe in your core that you have to be constantly providing value rather than just being yourself and talking. It's transactional, not spontaneous.
[1:27:16] I can definitely see transactional in a lot of my conversations.
[1:27:20] Tell me what you think about what I'm saying.
[1:27:26] I definitely think that, yes, I feel like I've got to bring something to the table as far as any conversation. um, I'm not really good at generating like opening conversations but I'm pretty good about playing off of whoever else is talking and making jokes and stuff um and that's probably a little bit of why I'm not, is um I guess cause I need to I'm I'm I don't have necessarily, something thing to present or whatever to open up the conversations a lot of times so i i don't necessarily talk uh or open them up unless there's a reason for it well.
[1:28:17] I've been trying to scan for some emotion over the course of this 90 minutes i literally had my eyes closed, listening as hard as i could to the questions i was asking you over sort of first 40 45 minutes, and i'm like okay where's the feeling where's the hint of emotion where's the connection.
[1:28:43] And it's been a long long several years and maybe i've just given up on stuff, but that's not what.
[1:28:53] You but that's not what you called me for.
[1:28:55] Yeah i know um i i don't want to give up but maybe that's i i think i've got emotion i i've you know i but, maybe it's just sort of a level of emotion i don't know i mean it's.
[1:29:15] Not it's not a criticism at all i'm just trying.
[1:29:17] To i mean.
[1:29:17] You're you're you're wrestling with just about the biggest and most powerful decision of your life which is whether to stay or leave, That's a horrible situation to be in. That's why I said sort of earlier, it's not like you guys are throwing crockpots at each other and it's like you've got to get out to save your life, right? It's all just hollowed out.
[1:29:44] It is definitely hollowed out.
[1:29:46] It's a bunch of straw men, straw people in a house together.
[1:29:53] Yeah, that's where we're at. Yes, that's it. Um and i i think that might be worse uh for my kid than me not being here.
[1:30:07] Well i'm trying to head you off from what i think would be a worse decision than staying or going and i know that sounds like a bit of a paradox sorry to be obscure but there's a worse decision than staying or going, and the worst decision is to go and end up with the same damn thing again.
[1:30:31] Yes yes because.
[1:30:33] Then it would be like okay so i blew up my family and now i've got this new, girlfriend lover wife whatever right maybe even have kids again if she's younger but and they just end up at the same straw people in a in a silent house, yes yeah that's the worst part that's the worst potential isn't it.
[1:30:54] Yeah that's yeah that would be definitely the uh worst case scenario yeah that yeah 100 and.
[1:31:02] So that's my concern is that you're leaving an empty non or like a non-relationship you're leaving that, and you said well i'm 54 i'm in good shape i'm gonna start over maybe you can start over right Okay. But if you haven't identified how you got here, how are you not just going to end up here again?
[1:31:28] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, third marriages, uh, I would imagine are even less reliable than second marriages.
[1:31:38] And you've listened to me for how long?
[1:31:42] Uh, probably five or six years. It's right. And maybe even longer than that. Okay.
[1:31:48] And I appreciate that. And, and of course I do appreciate your subscriptions and support massively, but you've listened to me for, and this is not a criticism right i'm just pointing out how hard this stuff is to see like genuinely it's really that's why i'm very glad that you you emailed it's really hard to see okay so you have listened to me for like, five six seven years and you didn't come into the conversation and again this is no criticism this is just like it's really hard to see this stuff but you didn't come into the conversation saying, Stef you know i've kind of listened to your show for a long time i've heard you really connect with people, man, that's missing from my life. And I think it's been missing from my life all the way from my childhood. I never really connected with my parents or my brother, you know, or, you know, I've got a body count of 50, which means I don't connect with women very well. And now I'm in a marriage where I'm not connected to my wife and daughter. But you're operating at a level of, well, she blamed me for her father's death and COVID, which is, I'm not saying that's wrong. I mean, this is as an astute and very intelligent and sensitive analysis, but it's missing the machinery that's really going on at the base of things.
[1:33:10] Yeah.
[1:33:15] I mean, if you're going to stay or if you're going to go, I don't know. Obviously, I can't make that decision for you. Neither would I try. But if you don't know how you got here you're just going to end up back here like Groundhog Day, yeah and, and how you got here is the distance of your parents, i mean when i know you don't speak russian obviously when you when your mother-in-law was over i mean was she close to your wife.
[1:33:57] Um they talk a fair amount um, it's tough to know right yeah yeah um whenever she came out like right after my daughter was born she stayed for like six seven months and that got to be too long so they did get on each other's, nerves um but i you know for a month or two they're they're they're good but.
[1:34:26] She also must have had some kind of distance in her childhood that she's not like i mean this this has been going on for years hasn't it.
[1:34:35] Yeah yeah it's it's it's it's been going on for years yes, um yeah like her childhood was um i guess her dad divorced her as her mom and uh so there's a gotta be a lot of trauma associated with that um and then um i guess her mom was nice enough when her dad had a stroke to kind of take care of him and i guess he lived with her and her boyfriend so uh kind of a very strange relationship okay.
[1:35:14] That her dad lived with her mom and her mom's boyfriend.
[1:35:17] Yes yes but he didn't really take care of himself and uh.
[1:35:25] And how long was he disabled with the stroke for.
[1:35:29] Uh several years uh probably at least four or five.
[1:35:35] Uh wow and then he died from from covet they said right that.
[1:35:41] That's the story yeah yeah.
[1:35:43] I mean who knows right who knows, Okay. And is your wife younger?
[1:35:55] Yes, she's in her 40s. So, yeah, she's younger than I am.
[1:36:01] And why did you guys decide on one child? Was that a decision or just what happened?
[1:36:11] It was not my decision. I wanted more. I was told it is not my decision and I can't have any input on it.
[1:36:19] And you guys had discussed that before you got married. Is that right? Or you did?
[1:36:23] No.
[1:36:23] You changed your mind?
[1:36:25] No, we didn't discuss it before marriage. I just assumed, stupid, but I just figured everybody wants two or three kids. But they don't.
[1:36:37] So, personally, I don't think that jumping out of this marriage without trying to solve with everything you've got, this distance problem, is going to change that foundational principle in your life.
[1:36:56] Okay. Yeah.
[1:37:00] We all of us all all of us in sort of intimate personal relationships we all of us need to find something of value or or believe that we have something of value, outside of what we manufacture and provide to others you know in a sense we can't be waitresses or waiters. And because you grew up, and it's not, obviously, I'm not putting the entire blame on your parents, I mean, but I assume that teachers and coaches or other people, I know your dad was the coach for the most part, but maybe you had some others. Did they find value in you alone? Or did they find value in you as the provider of some kind of resource you know i mean if you're going to go out for a baseball team they they want to know how well you can throw catch and hit right that they're not looking at you like are you a moral person are you a good person are you you know a good company like throw catch hit right yeah yeah um are you relating or are you auditioning sorry go ahead.
[1:38:20] Yeah yeah i would think most of most of my relationships have all been transactional as far as is that kind of stuff goes yeah i mean.
[1:38:27] Okay so you say most that's great and that's true of everyone by the way most most of everyone's relationships are transactional uh so tell me the ones that aren't.
[1:38:44] I i can't think of any um yeah i can't uh yeah, okay so let's try this on i'm trying to provide value yeah.
[1:38:57] So let's try this on for size um what's the most honest thing that you could say, to your wife about where you're at if she was in the room with you and you could look her in the no interruptions what would you say.
[1:39:19] Um we have to fix this uh no no i can't no no.
[1:39:24] No that's not honest that's a plan oh about what you think and feel not what you need fixed.
[1:39:37] Uh i don't want to be divorced i don't want to have to go through this um I'm, I'm staying you know here more of obligation than anything else at this point that's.
[1:39:51] All consequentialism what you think and feel.
[1:39:58] I feel depressed I feel, scared I guess that you know this is all gonna go really bad, I feel hopeless. I feel unloved, uncared for. Yeah, just frustrated, I guess is mostly what I feel.
[1:40:46] What about alone, lonely?
[1:40:51] Yeah, I definitely feel alone. Yeah, I'm definitely alone.
[1:40:58] Okay, so tell me a bit about that. Solitude.
[1:41:09] Bored out of my mind. Playing video games just to have something to do. Going on car rides just to do something not really even wanting to come home because of how things are so I'll stay gone just to be out of the house, yeah completely alone.
[1:41:46] What about rejected.
[1:41:53] Yeah definitely rejected too um, uh I don't see the point in being married the way we are you know the, there's no there's no point in having a relationship if you don't want to be in a relationship now now you're lecturing let's get back.
[1:42:22] To your feelings.
[1:42:23] Okay isolated lonely rejected, Unsure of what to do. Yeah, it's completely alone, completely bored, completely unsure of even where to start. Going or doing anything past this.
[1:43:07] What is your sense of time passing now that you're 54? Got maybe 30 years to go. Declining years.
[1:43:17] Yeah. That's why I was kind of thinking now is the time I have to do it now or I'll be 70 and doing this. I did think of waiting till my daughter was 18 and then and then making the decision but i can't make it that long i don't think not well that'll change i'm.
[1:43:40] Not trying to obviously put thoughts in your head but i'm trying to put myself in your shoes is there a sense of uh panic.
[1:43:47] A little bit yeah tell me about, that um if i stay i'm gonna be miserable for the next 30 years um probably get a divorce when my daughter hits 18 and be all alone and uh and it's not really yeah yeah yeah it's 63 not a place i want to be um and if i go now i could still get 63 and be all alone uh probably wind up, stealing the relationship with my daughter, so i i just don't know i don't know what to do, there's no good choices outside of making it work which I'm not in control of.
[1:44:49] Well, you have influence.
[1:44:51] I do.
[1:44:52] I mean, I'm not in control of this conversation, but I have some influence, right?
[1:44:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, definitely, I could make things better, but how? I don't know.
[1:45:06] Well, honesty, directness. Let me ask you this. It's a ridiculous image, so I apologize for that. But what I'm sort of thinking about is me versus a dolphin. I know this sounds ridiculous, right? The me versus a dolphin. So what can I do? I can go underwater. I can hold my breath for maybe a minute, maybe a minute and a half or whatever, right? I mean, the last time I checked, I could do three pool lengths underwater. Still pretty good lung power for my youth swimming days. But I'm no match for a dolphin. So who can stay distant longer, it's it do you get a sense that it's driving your wife crazy in the way that it's driving you crazy or do you think she's just fine.
[1:46:00] With it or.
[1:46:01] What's your sense of that.
[1:46:05] Um she was drinking a lot um alone so i gotta be depressed, I think having my daughter with her helps and so she's kind of got a little buddy to kind of at least be around well.
[1:46:26] You had that with your daughter when your wife had.
[1:46:28] Postpartum right yeah yeah so for the first four years five maybe even six it was pretty much me and then, seven it kind of started flipping and then eight and nine has been her right.
[1:46:50] Yeah i mean and it's a lot of burden for your daughter to be used to sort of substitute relationship um bandages by her parents.
[1:46:58] Yeah and you can see her trying to patch things up or make things better or not be a burden.
[1:47:12] Sorry, what do you mean?
[1:47:13] My daughter and my wife.
[1:47:14] What do you mean by not be a burden?
[1:47:22] Just being happy and trying to get things to go sometimes. Together, like, I don't know, She would want to hug both of us, or not recently, but at one point after.
[1:47:42] Yeah, I mean, she's basically, I really like you and mommy to get along better, so I'm not trapped in mommy's bed till I'm 20.
[1:47:49] Exactly, yes, yeah. And I assume she wants me around at least a little.
[1:48:01] Um, you know, I mean, obviously it's the most loving thing you could do for your daughter is to get along well with your wife.
[1:48:11] Yeah. Yes, that would, um, yeah. I, I, I, I think that would be the best gift I could ever give her.
[1:48:21] Tell me what you think a little more.
[1:48:25] Um I mean without it she's gonna have uh no idea how to do it when she gets old she's gonna repeat this and uh, yeah when she gets she'll be 50 and have a kid going through her second divorce, it's just um she needs to be shown a better way.
[1:48:57] Do you think that your wife understands how her distance in her marriage with you is negative for your daughter.
[1:49:09] Uh she has to but i don't think she's never communicated or shown it or, or expressed it in any way. But you'd be blind not to know it.
[1:49:28] Well, I mean, does she have an inner dialogue? Does she have a standard she compares her actions to? Does she have, I mean, is she religious? Does she have a philosophy or a morality that she subjugates her will to? Or is she more reactive and acting out kind of thing?
[1:49:47] More reactive um it's not religious um her dad was orthodox her mom was muslim so there was no religion in the house okay um, So, yeah, there is no guiding principle that I can see is, you know, just, I mean, I don't think she's a bad person. I think she's a good person, but I don't see, like, a morally guiding thing that points her in her direction.
[1:50:22] Has she taken the lead in terms of trying to fix things in the marriage much, if at all?
[1:50:33] No, not at all.
[1:50:36] Does she read reflective books or self-knowledge or psychology or literature that provokes introspection or does she have any of the sort of signs and symptoms of that mindset?
[1:50:49] No, not at all. She pretty much watches cooking shows and Russian TV.
[1:50:55] And if you had many conversations over the last 12 years with your wife about self-knowledge and history and childhood, and, you know, I mean, if you've been into what I do for sort of five, six, seven years, I'm sure that's a topic that you've thought about quite a bit.
[1:51:09] Yeah um not really um our relationship was probably going down about the time that i started listening to you and really getting it um and there just hasn't been a lot of conversations between us that are transactional in the last year several years.
[1:51:34] And how did you guys end up going to therapy Happy.
[1:51:38] Um, the first time, I don't know if she, I think I told her we were going to have to go. Um, I, I found a therapist. Um, so I'm pretty sure I was the one who was pushing for it. Um, the second one, um, I don't know who pushed for it, but I guess she got some discount at work. So we went to whoever her work sent us to.
[1:52:08] Yeah it might not be something you want to scrimp on.
[1:52:13] Yes yes uh cheaper the divorce yes um and the first lady i thought was fine um but she didn't she didn't like her um and i mean you.
[1:52:26] Guys i mean i'm not trying to flog anything here but you could always set up a private call with uh with me.
[1:52:32] I will uh i'll maybe wait till this one comes out and play it for her and see what she says and then try and see if she would be interested.
[1:52:44] Yeah, I mean, I'm not too bad at this kind of stuff.
[1:52:49] No, you definitely give me some insights that I did not have.
[1:52:55] Right. Okay, would you like a plan?
[1:53:02] Yes, please, yes.
[1:53:04] All right. i'll uh i break a few rules and give you a plan, um you got to talk to your parents man like 150 okay you gotta sit down and talk to your parents and say like what kind of relationship is this we'd ever talk about anything why didn't you guys tell me about dating did you know i was a social alcoholic pretty much and crazy promiscuous and and had all these red flags and these women and like where was your where was your parenting, where was your parenting i don't bro you weren't parented You grew up like a savage Lord of the flies, You were not Parented, Did you, do you know what I mean?
[1:54:08] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, uh, I, I do.
[1:54:13] Um, like it's crazy. It's like, so, I mean, you're, you're a dad, right? Parenting has a lot to do with coaching. Fair to say?
[1:54:25] Yeah.
[1:54:25] Yeah, absolutely. So if I said, Hey man, um, I had a coach for like 20 years, right? I had a live-in coach for 20 years right and you say oh um oh yeah i had a live-in coach um i wanted to be a baseball player so i had a live-in baseball coach for 20 years right, and then let's say i say that and you don't you know you're some space alien you say oh oh uh oh okay so you you want to be a baseball player you had a live-in baseball coach for, 20 fucking years um just curious what are the rules of baseball and i say oh shit i don't know, say what you want to be a baseball player you got a living baseball coach for 20 years and you don't know the rules of baseball.
[1:55:24] Okay um is baseball played indoors or outdoors oh i i don't know i don't know It's a good question, though. I should probably note that down. Maybe I can ask my 20-year baseball coach. Okay. Does it involve a ball? I'm not sure about that. I'm fairly sure it doesn't involve horses, though. I think I would have heard of something like that. Okay. So, you really don't know anything about baseball. And live in baseball coach for 20 years you really don't know anything about baseball so is it fair to call that person a coach.
[1:56:14] No, no, no, definitely no coach.
[1:56:18] So you had parents who were your live-in-life coaches for 20 years, and you graduated as a pure hedonist. You followed dopamine and dick. Fair to say?
[1:56:36] Yeah, that's, yeah, I did definitely do that.
[1:56:40] Right. now is there a coach alive who says well um if you want to achieve excellence at something, man just do whatever feels good just do whatever feels right just you know do do you know if you don't feel like training don't train if you don't feel like dieting don't diet if you don't feel like practicing don't just do what you feel like do what you feel like ain't coaching, it's it turns you into a kind of animal.
[1:57:13] But i did i was hiding it from him too um i mean i'm yeah.
[1:57:19] I guess that's self-erasing come on come on man you're 54 years old i could i could listen to this shit if you were 24 i'm not listening to you when you're 54 and you've been listening to me for five six seven years, Okay.
[1:57:37] Yeah, no, they should have found out.
[1:57:40] Is it your job to teach your parents how to coach you?
[1:57:50] Yeah, no, it's not my job, no.
[1:57:53] Right, because if you could teach your parents how to coach you, none of us would ever need coaches. I mean, the whole point, I mean, if I want to learn Japanese, do I need to teach my Japanese teacher how to teach me Japanese? Does that make any sense at all? I'm sorry. I'm not. I know this sounds harsh. You said you wanted me to be blunt. I'm not saying you don't make any sense at all, but this argument is deranged.
[1:58:26] Yeah. Yeah. No, yes, you're right. I shouldn't be the one to initiate that stuff.
[1:58:38] You can't. Look, all children, I mean, you have a daughter, right? How much do children want to please their parents? Well, it's immense, right? now evolutionarily speaking, when we think of children who displeased their parents in a time of harshness and scarcity and predation and extreme weather when we think of children who did not please their parents, how well did those children do from an evolutionary standpoint, they sure as shit did So I want you to massage this right into your, let's just say the base of your spine. Be polite, right? I'm going to massage you, massage this right into the base of your spine. The reason why you didn't tell your parents what was going on in your heart and your mind is because you wanted to survive. You not only wanted to survive, you are programmed to survive.
[1:59:59] It's like, if you don't eat, you lose weight. That's not open to your will, right? That's not a conscious thing, right? I think I'm going to decide to. Otherwise, we'd all do spot reduction on our abs, right? So that is an autonomous nervous system process, right? Or I guess, not a nervous system. It's an autonomous biological function that when your body is short of calories, you eat your own ass, right?
[2:00:34] Yeah.
[2:00:38] So, when you were very little, probably too little to remember, you scanned, as we all did, as we all do, you scanned the environment in order to figure out that which was most pleasing to your parents, and then you provided it. That's what we all do that's we're all all of us programmed that way now we don't know what our parents will find the most pleasing because our genes don't know what freaking culture we're born into right, so you as a little boy as a toddler as a baby you scanned your parents like we all did And you said What pleaseth These gods of my survival Right.
[2:01:32] Yeah.
[2:01:32] And we all make sacrifice to the gods, and sometimes the sacrifice is our own personalities. The gods' survival we call parents. Does it make sense so far?
[2:01:42] Yes, yes, it does. Yes.
[2:01:45] So as a baby as a toddler you scanned your parents and you said, what pleases them and what displeases them because I wish to survive which means I better please them, because you know right i mean even if even if displeasing your parents gives you a one percent less chance of survival it's going to get weeded out pretty freaking quickly right it won't take a hundred generations yeah.
[2:02:23] Yeah and starvation and.
[2:02:25] Yeah just you know your parents are slightly less attentive you get slightly less food it doesn't take much right because you know i mean you don't even have to starve to death you know sometimes if you just have 50 fewer calories a day you can't fight off some infection otherwise right yeah.
[2:02:42] Or uh or an animal gets you.
[2:02:44] Yeah you're just a little bit slow for the animal or whatever right yeah you got it okay sorry i just bumped there let me just pause that for a sec because i want i just bumped my microphone i want to startle people too much let me just make a note of when that is okay and okay to go for another few minutes is that right.
[2:03:03] Yeah yeah however long it takes.
[2:03:06] Okay so, you had to please your parents as we all have to i'm sorry to be so repetitive i really am but it's really important now did your spontaneous natural expressive personality please your parents.
[2:03:30] Um yeah i i'm yeah i'm guessing not but i was so young i don't i don't necessarily remember any good bad.
[2:03:41] We know we know the symptoms i mean we can tell from the symptoms, And the symptoms are, you have to perform, you can't just be. Which means that your parents preferred you to perform rather than just be. Because that's what you do. I mean, I don't have to be there to see your parents teaching you English to know that you were taught English as a kid because you have a naturally accented English, right?
[2:04:26] Yes.
[2:04:27] We know that you were taught English as a kid because you speak English as an adult. So, your parents... did not respond to you sharing thoughts and feelings. I assume that they responded, and there's nothing wrong with doing this, right? I mean, we all want our kids to do well, but I assume that they responded, to you rolling over, learning how to walk, you know, maybe tickle and giggle. And again there's nothing wrong with those things but it's not foundational to who you are as a person as an individual, I mean did you ever have those back of the porch late summer nights watching the harvest moon ramble chats with parents you just talking about what's going on in your mind talking about what you think associations memories you ever have those just long language chats where you just, batting thoughts and feelings back and forth?
[2:05:42] Usually, I don't know, if we'd go to the lake, we'd sit out there and there'd be people over and we'd be doing something, whatever it is.
[2:05:50] Yeah, that's not what I'm talking about.
[2:05:52] Yeah, but that was what we would do. We never really just sat there and talked. We would do something right.
[2:06:00] And so the reason i'm telling you i'd give you orders but i can't i won't but the reason i'm telling you go talk to your parents is you really need to see, how your parents react to direct and honest communications.
[2:06:30] Okay. Yeah.
[2:06:32] I can tell you how they're going to react. Do you want to give it a try and do a role play?
[2:06:40] Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.
[2:06:43] So you can pretend to be your dad.
[2:06:46] Okay.
[2:06:47] And I would say, dad, um, I guess I'd like to chat about a couple of things. Um, if you know, if you don't mind, uh, you know, I've really been thinking about my childhood a lot. because, you know, I'm not getting particularly along well, as you know, with my wife or my daughter and not happy in my marriage. And I really don't have any relationships where I just feel truly comfortable just being myself and sharing my sort of thoughts and feelings. I always feel like I've got to be providing something or being entertaining or having some useful tidbit or whatever, right? And, you know, I can't help but think, you know, I started dating. You know, I dated a couple of girls in high school. So I started dating when I was like 16 or 17. And I did date you know I got married in my in my 40s right 40 42 so for like a quarter century, I can't I can't remember you and mom asking me about my dating life like even from the very beginning when I really could have used some advice on who to date because I really didn't make some i didn't make great choices dad and i know i just don't remember you and mom and i, ever talking about that stuff.
[2:08:07] Um i figured you would figure it out um yeah.
[2:08:12] But that's not how that's not how okay dad let me ask you um what's what's the sport that your dad gave you a lot of coaching on basketball Basketball. Fantastic. Okay. So, Dad, do you think it's more important to be good at recreational basketball or to have a happy marriage?
[2:08:39] Definitely. Definitely to happy marriage.
[2:08:41] Fantastic. Okay. So, when it came to basketball, did you ever say to me, oh, you'll figure it out?
[2:08:51] No.
[2:08:53] What did you do?
[2:08:55] I coached you.
[2:08:56] You coached me.
[2:08:58] For years.
[2:08:59] For years. So why would you coach me about basketball, but not about women and dating? What do you think causes more problems in men's life? A basketball or women?
[2:09:23] Women definitely cause more problems.
[2:09:25] So why would you coach me on basketball and not on women?
[2:09:37] I don't have an answer for that.
[2:09:40] Pretty big question though, isn't it, Dad?
[2:09:46] Yeah, yeah, it's a big, big question. But I don't know why I wouldn't I just figured you would figure it out, and, yeah it seemed like you were doing pretty good, always seemed like you had somebody new that you were or you were with um.
[2:10:19] Okay so do you think that's a good thing do you think it's good that i could never keep a girlfriend, oh that's i mean would you would you think i was really successful if i had a new job every three weeks.
[2:10:39] No no definitely definitely not successful, um but why i don't i don't know maybe it was an uncomfortable topic i i don't know why i didn't.
[2:10:57] Because i would say as far as you know i mean you've obviously done some good things as a dad so this is not some blanket condemnation a dad, i'm 54 years old i'm in a miserable marriage do you know i slept with 50 women i mean i'm not proud of that that's terrible, it's just using people for flesh and you know there were i mean it was at least probably 10 maybe more years i really couldn't get together with people without drinking, I sort of feel like I was tossed out into the wastelands of the world with no training at all other than how to bounce a ball, I really feel, unparented I was coached with sports which is like the least important thing I can't even tell you the last time I touched a basketball, but But I just, I feel like I just, it's kind of like a, I don't know, a cliche, it's like a boomer thing maybe, but man. Man.
[2:12:14] Completely left to my own devices to invent things on my own, to try and figure out everything on my own, to try and figure out how to live, how to love, how to succeed, how to date. And, yeah, go ahead.
[2:12:31] I mean, my mom, or me and your mom, we provided you a good, we paid for your college education. We modeled good behavior. You just didn't follow the modeling.
[2:12:47] So are you saying that you gave me good advice i failed to follow it.
[2:12:58] Uh yeah he he chose to go a different path.
[2:13:04] Okay well let me ask you this so if i failed to listen to your instruction about basketball, would you just let me go and do my own thing?
[2:13:17] No.
[2:13:18] What would you do? Dad, what would you do?
[2:13:21] I would correct you. Probably make your own laps.
[2:13:24] That's right, Dad. You would give me explicit instructions, and if I failed to follow them, you would follow up, right?
[2:13:34] Yes, yes.
[2:13:36] So, how dare you have these two completely different standards? You never talked to me about dating and somehow I got it wrong. As if that's just how, oh, that's how you teach people. You just, uh, give them a reasonably good example and cross your fingers for 20 years. That's not how you parent, not how you coach, right?
[2:14:03] No, no.
[2:14:03] I mean, you didn't just, uh, you didn't just throw on like Michael Jordan clips and say, that's how you play. You coached me but why didn't you coach me about life why was it all just sports bullshit.
[2:14:25] And yeah, I, I don't know.
[2:14:30] I mean, did it ever cross your mind? I'm just curious. I mean, you saw me out there flailing around in the dating world year after year, you know, longest relationship was a year. Then I got married that broke up and why wouldn't you ever sit there and say, what do you think is going on with your relationships? Well, are there the red flags that you're missing? Tell me about this new girl. Well, I mean, you kept seeing me date these new women. And why wouldn't you say, how are you picking them, son? Let's go over that. Maybe you've slipped a couple of digits in your abacus of choice.
[2:15:09] Just, I figured you would have figured it out. I don't really have any excuse.
[2:15:14] Well, Jesus, Dad, have I? Were you right? Did you ever check in? I mean, it's like you left me at the park at the age of 10 saying he'll find his way home. 20 years later, I'm still not home and you're like, you'll figure it out. Like, don't you notice that I didn't figure it out? Like at any point, I've been dating dad, Jesus. I've been dating almost 40 years, 40 years. Do you think I'm going to figure it out in year 41? Like, what is the plan here? I don't understand.
[2:16:04] Yeah, there was no plan. There is, yeah, there is no plan.
[2:16:10] Okay, so then why do you lie to me? It's really quite upsetting, Dad. Why do you lie to me and say, my theory was that you'll figure it out, like you just lied to me, right? Now you're telling me there was no plan. oh and then you also said that um you did give me good good example but i just didn't follow it, so this is like one two this is the third iteration of this story so there's no plan, i mean okay let me ask you this as a whole in general do you think that it's important for parents to talk to their children about dating and red flags especially these days you mean one false accusation can lend your ass in jail right one uh one bad pregnancy or one pregnancy with the wrong woman can give you alimony it's going to give you child support for 20 years right if you don't pay that you ask it's thrown in jail i mean it's pretty high risk isn't it pretty high stakes i mean you know all of this stuff right yes.
[2:17:19] Yes uh yeah.
[2:17:21] So why would you teach me incessantly, coach me and train me incessantly about the least important thing, which is basketball, and give me no training or feedback or advice or even questions. You didn't ask me any questions about my dating. And the most important thing, which is love, sex, babies, marriage and romance.
[2:17:45] Yeah i i i don't have an answer uh i i i don't know i i don't have an answer but i.
[2:18:00] Appreciate you at least you stopped pretending you have an answer, I feel very un-parented. I feel excessively coached, for sure, but very un-parented. You see what I mean, right?
[2:18:30] Yes, I see, yes, yes.
[2:18:37] I mean, I'm not saying you have to give me an answer now, Dad, but I kind of need an answer. I really do.
[2:18:49] I don't know if there is one, I don't know.
[2:18:51] There's an answer. I mean, we don't behave randomly. If you've behaved in a consistent way for the last 40 years of my life, there's an answer. So we could stop there because of course, I suppose you have to have other conversations with your dad about the answer. But what did you think of the conversation?
[2:19:25] It's difficult to not have answers, that's for sure.
[2:19:29] I mean, it's the most obvious thing in the world, right?
[2:19:32] Yeah. Yeah. It, it, it, there should be answers there and I, I can't think of any outside of the modeling, which they did a good job of modeling.
[2:19:51] No, they did not do a good job of modeling. I'm so sorry. I mean, the reason they didn't do a good job of modeling, my friend, is because modeling is also being curious about your children's thoughts, feelings, and experiences, which they did not do. I mean, I don't know the answer, but my guess is that the answer, the most logical one, which is not to say that it's right, but the most logical answer is just sabotage. Abumas are sabotage vampire bombs, right? They've screwed up every country they've been in charge of, just sabotage. Massive amounts of debt, ridiculous policies all over the place, right?
[2:20:43] Yeah. Yeah.
[2:20:45] Sort of profound indifference to the fates of their children or to put it another way, your father wanted you to be good at basketball because that reflected well on him, so he can only he can only think about what benefits him and if you're good at basketball and he's the coach that makes him look good right but.
[2:21:12] It also bonding um, there was bonding during that I mean.
[2:21:24] I mean I don't know bonding I mean I don't even really know what that means, parenting is not about bonding parenting is about teaching children to be self-sufficient moral and virtuous I don't know what bonding means in this context, I mean there are there are some people who are kidnapped who bond with their kidnappers it's called the stockholm syndrome i'm not sure what that would have to do with parenting yeah.
[2:21:52] Yeah, yeah i find out that's what i'm doing with my daughter is trying to bond versus probably parenting, oh We'll see you next time. You can see how it happens.
[2:22:15] So if you, I mean, let's take the sports analogy, right? So if your kid is going to be involved in a very important basketball game, and you don't give the kid any coaching or teach the kid any of the rules of basketball, are you not setting that kid up for failure?
[2:22:36] Yeah, the kid is set up for failure, yes.
[2:22:39] I mean, it's going to be appalling, right? Absolutely humiliating. You well that's your marriage i mean the moment that you decided to embark upon a multicultural marriage right.
[2:22:57] Yes yeah definitely multicultural.
[2:23:01] That is very high stakes, 3d chess right i mean it's not like you married the girl you grew up to next door you both share the same values and history and right i mean you went to the other side of the planet bro, to a half muslim russian bride, with no training, no expertise, no coaching. I mean, you got thrown in the NBA, blindfolded with one hand tied behind your back. No kidding. And then you wonder why it hasn't succeeded. How could it? That's like me making random Japanese sounds at some guy in Japan and wondering why he doesn't understand what I'm trying to say. I haven't studied Japanese. And I'm trying a really challenging language with no knowledge. Did you see what I mean?
[2:24:14] Yeah, yeah, yeah, I, yeah, I see. Kind of hopeless there it's like uh but yeah i i yeah i definitely see it.
[2:24:29] And then you marry a woman who's got some severe challenges from a you know postpartum depression she's got anxiety um she um, jealousy issues, right?
[2:24:54] That was the first one.
[2:24:55] I'm sorry?
[2:24:56] The first wife was a jealousy one. The second one's not...
[2:25:00] Yeah, but your wife also grew up with, you know, cross-cultural challenges as well, right?
[2:25:06] Yes, yes, yes. Any bad thing you say about Russia, she is on point about defending it.
[2:25:13] I mean, there's the Russia thing, there's the, I guess, the Christianity thing, there's the uh the muslim perspective right so so she's a she's a smorgasbord so to speak right, yes and that's not a criticism at all i'm just that that's how she is right yes and then she's she's gone from that environment which is complicated enough to america she grew up in america she's a citizen and then she's married an american man and it doesn't sound like her parents gave her a lot of advice on that either.
[2:25:46] Not successful advice. I, I don't know if they were equipped even as much as my parents.
[2:25:55] So, the question isn't, why did it fail? The question is, how could it succeed? You had no successful track record of relationships in a much more compatible environment. Did you, you know what I mean, right?
[2:26:11] Yeah, yeah, I, yeah, I, yeah, I, Yeah, I mean, I definitely could have settled down with someone who was closer as far as upbringings, and yeah, it would have been a lot easier.
[2:26:31] I mean, this is the most exotic woman, so to speak, you've dated, right?
[2:26:36] My first wife was Ty, so.
[2:26:38] Oh, Jesus, bro. You've got to start on easy mode.
[2:26:47] But she grew up in America. I mean, she was, the only cultural thing was when I would go to her parents' house and I would notice it then.
[2:26:59] I mean, personally, I think that's a bit naive, but, um, I've obviously never been married to a tiger. So what do I know? Right. But I think that it's more than just, Oh, Oh, you just take someone from Thailand and, and you, you have them grow up in America. It's exactly the same as a white girl. Say it's like, but it's not, but she's still Thai. Right.
[2:27:18] Yeah yeah yeah just not going to have the same experiences yeah, yeah like the way her her and her mom and her mom's boyfriend definitely interacted, um unacceptably to what i would have been able to accept was.
[2:27:39] The girl you dated for a year at the end of university was she white.
[2:27:42] Yeah she was yeah she remember who i asked i.
[2:27:47] Asked who was the most uh functional woman you dated.
[2:27:54] Yeah, yeah, she was.
[2:27:56] Now, again, I'm not saying that, you know, all the white women are the most functional, but what I am saying is that there's more cultural compatibility.
[2:28:10] Yeah, we were not fighting about stuff that didn't need to be fought about.
[2:28:13] Right. You know, like, there's not as big of a canyon to get across, right, in terms of perspective. Right. now this dunning kruger thing is like if you're not particularly skilled at something you think it's easier than it is right yeah yeah yeah and so because uh because you're not particularly skilled at i think honest and direct communication in relationships through no fault of your own when you were younger it's just it's how your parents the price of survival was you not being honest and direct about your thoughts and feelings. That was, your parents didn't want you to do that because if your parents had responded warmly and positively to you being direct and honest about your thoughts and feelings, you'd have that habit, right?
[2:29:01] Yeah, yeah.
[2:29:03] So they responded negatively to your direct thoughts and feelings and they were constantly dragging you to activities and sports and board games and social events and don't talk and be quiet and all this kind of stuff, right?
[2:29:15] Yeah, yeah.
[2:29:16] So you learned pretty quickly that you have to provide value and do things you can't just be yourself and talk, and so because you haven't i think much connected with people directly and honestly in your life, you i think significantly underestimate the difficulty of cross-cultural marriages or cross-racial marriages or both, Yeah, it seems to me that your wife and yourself have no common frame of reference anymore.
[2:29:58] Yeah, I mean, we definitely don't want to do things together. Yeah, yeah, we don't.
[2:30:07] Well, and I think foundationally, I mean, this is the one lesson that, of course, I mean, both parents need to get across with their children. But in your case in particular father to son, that you cannot base a relationship on lust I'm not saying obviously I'm not saying that the mother of your children and your wife I'm not saying that she doesn't have any particular virtues, but they have not been enough to sustain the relationship and so if you found the relationship on lust uh she's pretty she's sexy we have good time in bed and again there's nothing wrong with pretty there's nothing wrong with sexy there's certainly nothing wrong with having a great time in bed but, you can't maintain a relationship based on lust, i mean you know that right yeah.
[2:31:04] Yeah um all that stuff fades um.
[2:31:07] I definitely know that Well, lust doesn't fade if it's supported by love, respect, and virtue.
[2:31:18] Yeah. Sooner or later, I just figure you get on each other's nerves for some period of time.
[2:31:23] No, that's not how it works. I mean, I've been married 23 years. That's not how it works. But if you found things on lust, then resentment creeps in and because you lived a very hedonistic lifestyle in your 20s and early 30s then you kind of fried your intimacy receptors and fueled your lust receptors so to speak, so then when the hot Russian girl comes along it's kind of hard to Resist. And again, I'm not saying that all she is, is physical attractiveness. I'm sure there's a lot more to it, but not, it hasn't been enough, right?
[2:32:14] Yeah. Yeah. That only lasts for so long.
[2:32:18] Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, sex is like gas. It gets refueled through respect.
[2:32:28] Yeah, yeah. At some point, you're just sitting here content for each other.
[2:32:33] Right. So I think the plan, if I were to be in your shoes, I obviously can't tell you what to do, but I think for me the plan would be I just got to have an honest conversation with my parents, and figure out how did I end up in this situation where I just am so distant from everyone. It has to come from the beginning it has to come from early on it has to come from you mapping what your parents want and don't want what they like and don't like, what they prefer and reject mapping that and saying jesus i can't be myself holy crap, they don't want that and and so then if you are actually yourself and direct with them, hopefully over the next couple of days or maybe this weekend or whatever if you are actually direct with them, then you can re-experience what it was like to be direct with them as children and see how they react. Now, I imagine that they're going to react with great confusion, dismay, distance, you know, boomers are kind of like toddlers, you have to keep reality pretty far away from them, particularly emotional reality, but you don't have to do that anymore. So you're going to see how your parents react to direct emotional expression and honesty.
[2:33:53] And you'll see I assume I'm sure you'll see the recoil and then you'll say oh that's why I have these habits that's why I have this approach, because they kind of don't like it but I'm honest and direct, does that make sense yeah.
[2:34:16] During the role play it was uncomfortable. I mean, playing my dad, yeah, it was, it was not comfortable giving answers. That's, that's for sure.
[2:34:25] Well, and he was, he had absolutely zero integrity. Zero. Like negative integrity. He was corrupt as hell. Because he just lied about everything. And that means that he would rather win at your expense than genuinely listen. Because everything was kind of this implicit insult well you you should have figured it out i guess you didn't i guess you're slow well we gave you a good good modeling and you just you went another way you went like you know what i mean like that's just crazy, I mean, all parents know that lust is like the modern god, right? Lust and dopamine and sex and hedonism is like the modern, I mean, you have to arm your children against that stuff, right?
[2:35:21] Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, I'm definitely doing it for my kid.
[2:35:28] Right. So yeah, I think if you have that direct conversation with your parents, you can see how they react and then you can understand why you didn't develop those habits because i think that they were punished i think that they were rejected out of hand like strongly strenuously and then i think it'll be easier for you to understand why you've lived with this kind of distance i think with a lot of your relationships over the course of your life, and why there's this kind of awful familiarity to what's going on in your marriage and with your daughter.
[2:36:21] Yeah, okay, yeah. I'll do the call with them.
[2:36:26] I'll be better face-to-face if you can.
[2:36:32] Yeah i've been trying to go out there ever they live in another state so i've been trying to visit them every quarter.
[2:36:38] So cheaper than a divorce, yeah you've got time for divorce you've got time to fly to see your parents.
[2:36:50] Okay yeah i then i'll i'll definitely uh do that then and.
[2:36:57] All right and of course i'm certainly happy to help you and your wife if that is helpful too and and i guess we'll stop here uh will you keep me posted about how things are going.
[2:37:06] Yes yes i'll definitely uh i'll definitely let you know um and uh yeah hopefully they can turn it around um.
[2:37:14] I hope so too man i'm sure hopefully at least i've hoped i've tried to give you the best tools that i can think of to help you achieve that and obviously i wish the very best for you and your family.
[2:37:22] Thank you i appreciate it.
[2:37:25] Stef and um thanks take care bye.
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