0:07 - A Crossroads of Faith and Identity
21:38 - The Burden of Childhood Isolation
51:25 - The Struggles of Young Adulthood
1:08:16 - The Trauma of Psychiatric Intervention
1:09:59 - Understanding the Nature of Psychosis
1:13:03 - Medication as the Only Interaction
1:13:52 - The Drain on Will to Live
1:15:31 - Family Dynamics and Relationships
1:19:19 - Strained Paternal Bonds
1:23:53 - Employment and Financial Anxiety
1:25:09 - The College Conundrum
1:27:54 - Future Aspirations and Fears
1:29:23 - Current Psychological Status
1:33:04 - The Desire for Acceptance
1:36:05 - The Nature of Unconditional Love
1:37:05 - Theoretical vs. Practical Relationships
1:39:10 - The Pursuit of Meaningful Connections
1:42:09 - Overcoming Social Awkwardness
1:47:18 - The Impact of Isolation
1:50:28 - Exploring Financial Opportunities
1:53:25 - The Pressure to Be Perfect
1:55:42 - The Challenge of Social Interaction
1:58:48 - Acknowledging the Need for Social Engagement
2:01:20 - Breaking the Isolation Cycle
2:07:48 - The Weight of Past Decisions
2:09:57 - Reflection on Faith and Decisions
2:16:08 - The Cycle of Self-Isolation
2:24:42 - Familial Connections and Their Failures
2:27:10 - Learning Through Experience
2:28:50 - Closing Thoughts and Reflections
The episode features a candid and insightful conversation between Stefan and a caller, a 23-year-old man grappling with feelings of emptiness and purposelessness following his conversion to Catholicism. The conversation delves into the young man's complex background, touching upon his affluent upbringing in a family of medical professionals and the challenges he faced during his formative years, particularly after the death of his mother when he was 16. This loss introduced him to significant responsibilities, including caring for her, which added to his sense of isolation as he navigated growing up in a household marked by sibling absence and parental preoccupations.
The caller reflects on how he felt pressured to excel academically, dedicating countless hours to mastering the violin at a music conservatory, where the stress and seriousness of his childhood led to a gradual loss of joy in his pursuits. During the COVID-19 pandemic, he experienced a breakdown, leading to his decision to drop out of music school due to the lack of live performances and the isolation imposed by online classes. Throughout these discussions, the impact of the pandemic is highlighted, with the caller revealing how it not only disrupted his academic goals but compounded feelings of anxiety and uncertainty about his future.
Stefan takes the time to unpack the caller's history, exploring the isolation that stemmed from being the youngest in a family where the older siblings were often absent, leaving him to engage primarily with the online world. This lack of social engagement has contributed to his anxiety and social awkwardness, particularly in relationships with women, as he admits to being a virgin and feeling a lack of experience in romantic pursuits. He candidly discusses his failed attempt to ask a girl out in high school, attributing his discomfort to pervasive social anxiety and an addiction to pornography, which further exacerbated his insecurities.
As the conversation continues, the caller expresses a desire for connection and acceptance but struggles with the fear of rejection, admitting that he often sees his mental health issues as a barrier to forming intimate relationships. The discussion touches on his family dynamics, characterized by a complex relationship with his father, who has remarried, and strained ties with his sisters, who are not aligned with his newfound conservative religious views. The caller articulates a longing for the familial bond he lacks, feeling distanced due to ideological differences that leave him feeling isolated from his loved ones.
Stefan challenges the caller's perception of these relationships and his belief that his mental health makes him an unworthy partner, emphasizing the challenges of waiting for financial and emotional stability before pursuing romantic connections. He encourages the caller to get out and practice socializing to gain experience, framing this as essential to overcoming his social awkwardness and fears of rejection. The conversation concludes with reflections on the caller's faith and the importance of community and direct relationships in countering his isolative tendencies. Stefan's probing questions and insightful guidance provide the caller with a clearer framework to understand his situation and the potential paths forward.
In summary, the episode is a profound exploration of isolation, the interconnectedness of personal history and mental health, and the importance of social engagement. Through their dialogue, both Stefan and the caller shed light on the complexities of navigating relationships and self-acceptance within the context of faith and underlying psychological challenges.
[0:00] Hello, Stefan. I've been going through a challenging period in my life that began after my conversion to Catholicism.
[0:08] I'm a 23-year-old young man that feels a serious emptiness and purposelessness, despite spiritual growth and development within the Catholic Church. And this is partially because I dropped out of school, out of college during the pandemic, and have remained alone for a significant amount of time. This has been exacerbated by having experiences of psychosis and mania, along with depression. And it's also been encouraged by being more distant from my non-Catholic family, and I have a lot of baggage from my childhood years. But anyway, I'm at a crossroads in my life where I don't know exactly what I'm going to do, And I feel a sense of anxiety and lostness, partially because of the mental illness and partially because I don't foresee a career in front of me that's obvious to me right now. So all these things kind of come together and make me very worried about my future.
[1:14] Well, I'm sorry to hear about these challenges. I hope we can do something useful with regards to them. Do you want to start off by telling me a little bit about your childhood and what happened? What's your lore? What's your background story?
[1:31] Yes. So I came from a family of professionals, medical professionals, and I was really well off as a kid. So we lived in this large house, kind of this upper middle class situation. And I had three older siblings. I'm the youngest by a significant amount. So even though I had older siblings, it was kind of like I was left alone. And they were in college by the time I was an adolescent and really forming my identity.
[2:05] It was a very musical family, so I was very set...
[2:10] On um it's that kind of situation where you're where you're not truly a single child but you're kind of a single child and you're left alone to kind of go to your own devices i was online for a long amount of time um of course that benefited you but but to be serious um it was like okay you're you're gonna go to public school you're gonna go and focus on yourself and you're going to become some high-powered professional and that's your purpose and you have to just this kind of pressure to to develop and practice and um set myself up as early as possible to succeed and become like a careerist and i was mentioning the music part because um that's what i went to school for so i dropped out of music school and i was supposed to be a professional violinist So part of that early childhood is lots of academic time. I was very good in school, got fives and AP classes, all straight A's and everything, spending hours and hours practicing violin, doing all that. So it's a kind of high-powered childhood where by the time I was 16, you know, I had all these extracurriculars and AP classes and then private lessons doing the violin so that it was such a serious childhood that it wasn't even fun anymore.
[3:36] And also when I was 16, my mom passed away.
[3:41] At this point in time, she was bedridden for like a year and a half or so. And this is when I was a teenager when I was 16 and so my older siblings are in school, and my other sibling is uh developed me developmentally disabled although we won't get into that much for now um I was the one taking care of her for that period of time you know I'd come home late from like marching band extracurriculars and stuff, and I would dress her foot wounds. She had had these wounds on her that wouldn't heal and form scar tissue and she had a myocardiopathy and everything. So she eventually passed from that. She didn't suffer too much. It wasn't a grievous illness, but it was very stressful at the time and I felt like there was no recreation time at that point in my life. It was all very serious and I was the one left to... To dress her and attend to her at night after doing all of my other stuff.
[4:44] But where was your dad in all of this?
[4:47] So my dad is a doctor, so he was at work.
[4:53] Right.
[4:55] And the... It was really tough on him because, you know, coming home, you know, his wife's bedridden the whole time and she's extremely sick. This kind of weighed on him in a particular way. Her sister came to live with her, to spend time with her during the day so that she wasn't left alone all the time. But yeah, in a certain way, he kind of had me have that obligation of dressing her wounds and attending to her in that medical way. But yeah, he's just very busy. He's very busy being a doctor. He's on call, so on and so forth. When there's people, especially my brother who's developmentally disabled, he usually delegates that to other people. He hires a nanny. He has a relative come. He has other people take care of it.
[5:50] So we did sort of skip over most of the first 16 years.
[5:55] Yes.
[5:56] So what was it like for you as a kid growing up? You said that there was a certain amount of isolation because you were kind of on the low age end of the, almost like an only child. You were so young, so much younger. And did you have much contact with your parents? I guess if they're both working as doctors, they're quite unavailable or they're both working in the healthcare field so were you disciplined or how did that go for you in your early childhood.
[6:28] Yeah i was disciplined um early on they were trying to make sure that i was going to be, child um they didn't discipline me too toughly i was a pretty good kid spanked a handful of times. So this isn't repeated spanking, but spanked a handful of times. They were away a lot because they were, So, and I was a public school kid. So when we add up the, you know, the majority of the time you're away from your parents. But also I was kind of spoiled, to be honest. We were obviously well off because they were both doctors. So we went on vacations a lot. I went to these music festivals as part of preparing to be a violin, going to camps and everything. So I had a lot of structured time, but yes, I was kind of distant from them because they're both away for most of the day.
[7:33] And what was your experience? I played violin for about 10 years, but certainly nowhere near the level that you did. But what was your experience or goal with regards to being a violinist? Did you love it? Was it sort of something that you were pushed towards or how did that work?
[7:49] Well it started with a push but then i i took it on and accepted it and said hey this is what i'm going to do for for life um that was where all my ambition was vested and and yeah i did get to kind of a semi-professional level because when you're in when you're in music school for this and um you've been to these music festivals um i won't name the individual ones but they're pretty serious and at a certain point it it it hit that eudaimonia switch in my brain where it's like i'm playing in this symphony i'm playing i'm playing in a symphony and the depth of the experience made me say oh yes i'm going to do this and and almost kind of, romanticizes the the possibility because you don't go into it for money you don't go in it convenience, it definitely was the aspiration that I had early on I was also kind of.
[8:49] Thought oh maybe i'll be a doctor like my parents because i was very academically proficient, um but really my later years i did get serious about the violin but again going back to my original prompt the pandemic happened and it kind of that was my first year of school of college and everything just shuts down and there's no live ensemble practicing there's none of the experience that you have as a musician where it's this interactive communicative thing so all that was taken away but you're still required to pay tuition you're still required to do this farce of like online classes and you know i guess i guess maybe sometimes i'm an impulsive person where just something like snapped in me where i just gave up on life, and i was just like i quit i quit but then but then when you quit there's nothing there's there's there's no bottom below you so you just i just pulled the rug over myself and just kind of uh left okay.
[9:55] So so let's let's go back to the pandemic so you see first year of college was like 2020 kind of thing? Yes. Okay. And I assume like a lot of people, you just kind of toughed it out. It's like, it's going to turn the corner. It's going to get better. And did that just kind of erode underneath you? Or how did that go?
[10:19] No, no, you're right. It did erode. Where I went through it, well, Tom, for months and months. but this also coincides, it was at this point where I was realizing that all those, as a young man as an adolescent or it's like where I've been more interested in this stuff and the cultural environment of the arts and music it's going to be really hostile and that it was you know, and that the i'm so sorry we're um 90 percent of people let's.
[11:11] Just try try reconnecting because you're garbling out a little bit so i'll just call you back in a second right.
[11:15] Okay thanks, All right. So anyway, it was getting to a point where I was seeing like the sociocultural dynamic within the arts kind of came one to one with the pandemic culture. And it became obvious to me that if I was going to live a more traditional life or convert to Catholicism, that there's kind of a severe dissonance there. And you know the majority of my social group and the mode the artistic mode that i was in would contradict that and so that this became a severe question to me that also encouraged me to pull the trigger i also had a um a bad rejection in school that the bad rejection from a girl in school that made me feel um wounded in my ego and everything like well deep down what i want to be is is to be married with the family and have kids but if i'm going to be in the situation where you know the future became really uncertain during the pandemic um so i had a really negative view of my future in that career path and saying well i might not even be able to have like a normal marriage family life i won't find someone in this milieu in this industry and.
[12:41] What were the sort of cultural influences that had you go down that path.
[12:45] No it's just everyone around me is really liberal they're just really liberal and it's like um of course you know you can have the the horse race politics and everything but the idea of being this like very traditional conservative person in that environment, especially in terms of sexuality and gender relations and stuff like that. Um.
[13:17] I don't know. I could just tell that I would be an odd one out and that a lot of people would probably view me very negatively. Because if you're anti-LGBTQ in the arts, you're going to get in trouble. You're going to get in big trouble with your friends because half of them are like that or have these orientations that are very different. You know because like converting to Catholicism I was already becoming like really conservative and right wing not just intellectually but personally in how I wanted to live and, then becoming Catholic well it's like I'm going to take it really seriously and so I wouldn't even hide those values so it just became, it was just awkward to me at the time and it wasn't obvious it might sound like a bit extreme to say oh you know I'm conservative everybody's liberal i'm i'm leaving i'm at the time but i just felt like in the future, huge problem right.
[14:21] And and not just in terms of your career but also in terms of social life and let's say meeting meeting a woman and so on right so in in your in the music environment when i mean what would you say the percentage of traditional say maybe even catholic or just conservative people was.
[14:40] Uh probably probably 10 right right probably 20 20 if i'm generous but it's just i mean it's not just there's certain industries like health care where, clean thing but it's just it's the arts sorry.
[15:07] Yeah you just cut out there for.
[15:08] A second you said that.
[15:09] There's certain in health care what.
[15:11] In health care you know like health care that lean left now, arts is just with arts and i went to this arts boarding school mom died i like left public school because I had this, connection to it. So I left my home and went to an arts boarding school. And I went, it was literally like hippies and everything. It was great. Well, you know, as like the only conservative kid there, it's weird, but it was like hippies and everything. So it's just like, everyone's a hippie. Everyone's extremely left-wing. Everybody's extremely into the social ideologies, which isn't just, you know, the personal becomes political, as the liberals say, where it is your social orientation and how you express yourself personally what am i going to say to um when when all my friends it's like oh he became catholic but half of them are have an abnormal sexual orientation or transgender or anything like that it's like um they take it really seriously as well so right.
[16:21] Right okay so um it was a combo of a i don't know what to say a um, a values mismatch to put it as nicely as possible it was a combination of that, and also just feeling like you're just staring at a screen and pretending to get an education is it sort of like that.
[16:45] Yes i was there was a lot of screen time right.
[16:49] So tell me a little bit about what else happened in the pandemic in school or what else didn't happen i mean basically everyone just had to stay home.
[16:58] Yeah we we went home after um spring break and just did all the classes online, and um it's it's music it was music performance by the way so music performance was supposed to include ensemble performance, supposed to include, personal solo performance and your private lessons and everything. So all those things were cut out and you had no public recitals, no public performances of any kind with that. So it's like no performance, only like Zoom classes of music theory and Zoom class with your personal instrumental teacher for the last several months of it.
[17:41] Hmm. And did you get a sense that this was going to go on and on? I mean, because normally, you know, it's like you have a negative situation and you're like, oh, this too shall pass. And, you know, maybe there's a certain amount of productive gaslighting that goes on with that kind of stuff. Enough and then at some point you know it just kind of you know kind of settles in that uh this this ain't gonna pass at least in any reasonable time frame did that is that sort of what happened to you or was it something else.
[18:13] Uh no that that is kind of what happened to me where where i was worried that this was going to be part of a new of course not not like we're going to live on zoom in pods forever um no i didn't think that but i did think that it was going to be a substantial shift in the industry and that live performance was going to be punished a lot was going to be disincentivized in the future um but really it was part of my personal psyche where at this point i had like a i didn't have a psychotic break yet at this point in my life so conversion Catholicism pandemic and everything the the mental issues came after that but it was kind of a break in my psyche where i just wanted to give up um give up for some reason on this and just pull the trigger and check out well.
[19:10] You didn't want to.
[19:11] You're right i didn't i didn't want yay i hope this.
[19:17] Lasts for you you didn't want but but i think you were starting to process the passage of time and saying okay what what on earth is going to happen, in society if this level of confinement and lockdown continues or i guess another is like well what if it happens again and what about the next time and you know society's shown its true colors i mean there's a lot of stuff that was floating around i mean most people's heads around, the uh pandemic that was really um really i mean i wouldn't say appalling like the content is not appalling but uh the the the um so the content is appalling but the reasons are not if that makes sense.
[19:55] Right right and i really like when you said society showing their true colors um that that's something that gives me catharsis a bit and i'm not claiming to be it's quite obvious i'm not a mentally balanced person so whatever that i might have yeah right so i might have overreacted a bit in my personal case and just it was part of, you know a break in life a seismic shift in life for me personally but also just this sense of learned not learned helplessness but just this sense of helplessness in the idea of, true culture colors in that you know there could be significant social for the first time it's like oh politics or or sociocultural issues aren't something that you debate on the internet um just the first time of sensing there could be severe social consequences in facing these certain issues in my personal life and i could be in a situation where it's you know 90 people versus one and they all go along right.
[21:02] Oh yeah i mean the the social contract was completely shattered over covered and it it is not recovered because there's no uh there's no reckoning there's no reckoning i mean.
[21:15] I'm actually surprised by that i think you said i think you said before that you're not surprised by that by the by the um the vindication for some of these policies and for some of these lies and mistakes but to me, the adolescent naivete in me still feel a little shock from that.
[21:38] Yeah tell me about that.
[21:47] Um i wouldn't say that i was sheltered because external experiences where i'm on my, institution or some festival or some camp so i've been away from my family plenty of times when i was young enough but i always had the sense that you know there were people above thee that were gonna quote unquote take care of me or make sure that um everything works out fairly and that i'm on this safe conveyor belt that um, that won't be disturbed. So the idea that some massive society-wide injustice could happen like that, and there was nothing I could do about it, and no one cared, and no one was going to resolve it for me, it kind of contradicts that early experience.
[22:39] And what was sort of the arc, if you're thinking early on in the pandemic to, I guess, middle in the pandemic, about, how decisions were being made whether they'd be made sort of on facts and data reason and evidence or through propaganda like what was your sort of experience with that.
[22:55] My frustration was that i had a really strong personal sense that um decisions were made stream of consciousness almost almost as of social responses this is going to sound a little cartoonish and like a.
[23:16] Um said one thing pelosi and all the professionals that don't like him said the opposite of it and they reacted aggressively you know because in sweden sweden had a much softer and less aggressive um uh social policies to restrict covid but it almost felt like the herd or the cathedral or whatever you want to call it um just kind of would go along with with some some basic ideas that somehow get seeded in certain minds in certain places and they just go along with it, and there wasn't a sense that it was it was clearly well thought out there wasn't a sense that it was based off of uh facts like you were just saying but that it was just socially imbued and, that, It just came down to, you have to respect professionals, these medical professionals. You have to respect the state. If you don't, you're an evil person. You're a dangerous person. You're an odd one out. Everywhere. And you can't escape. It's everywhere. Everyone's wearing a mask everywhere. Everyone's wearing these tissue paper masks that don't work and everywhere. And it's like, you're even going into the sandwich shop. And there's an employee screaming at you for not putting on your mask and it's just this kind of.
[24:44] Severe isolating experience based off that kind of behavior I mean I really think even from the from the top the tippity top with Fauci and everything that it really wasn't even, based directly on facts but based off of social prestige and ideas that came from certain people that stuck for some reason.
[25:08] What do you mean?
[25:11] Like the six-foot policy, was that even based off of a serious study or a serious observation? Or it was just kind of a rule of thumb? And the right person said it. Fauci said it, so then it just happens. And I know it's like I'm getting into particular things here and it's not seeing the forest for the trees here, But it just felt like even at the top of my society, people are just doing things because they're following someone else, because of prestige, because they want to get back at daddy or get back at the person that they oppose. And that it wasn't going to be based off of facts. It wasn't going to be based off of something deeper than that. And yeah, so it was just a big loss of trust, um, experiencing that and just sensing that.
[26:05] Yeah. And I think that the implicit social contract, so the explicit social contract is, you know, we sacrifice for the young and we care about the kids and so on. That's the explicit social contract. But the, uh, the implicit social reality is that the kids get sacrificed. I mean, kids get sacrificed in war, of course. Kids get sacrificed in terrible schools that nobody really seems to want to deal with, or maybe they don't have the ability to deal with it. I don't know. And of course, people get sacrificed in terms of the national, the kids get sacrificed in terms of the national debt and pillaging the young to pay for old age pensions and nobody really looking at root causes of rising housing costs and so on. And so you kind of had to have a fair amount of knowledge, sort of politics and economics to see the implicit sacrifice of the young that occurs in sort of modern Western societies. I mean, most societies, but in particular, modern Western societies, like this sort of Aztec or Incan child sacrifice stuff. But with COVID, the reality that kids weren't much at risk at all, and it was the elderly with a whole bunch of comorbidities who seemed to be the most at risk and therefore our children should have.
[27:32] Had the ability to continue on with their lives and maybe some work could have been done to do more to isolate the old and the infirm and so on, right? I mean, I think, I'm obviously no expert in this, but that would be my guess. That wasn't even explored. And it's been brutal, brutal on the young. Because they can't look at society and say, well, you'll care a lot about me.
[28:01] I couldn't even imagine what it was like for kids that were still in public school. I mean, I hear these stories of depression and suicidality and anxiety increased, but just these stories of kids just absolutely hating school way more than is normal. Yeah, kids are like, oh, I hate school. It's not fun because it's public school and it's a waste of time. But stories of like you know these girls throwing out their high school yearbook, as their dad's driving away um from the school and stuff like that where they're just this complete loss of faith and um i don't think i would have i i just can't imagine if i was any younger how i would have dealt with it and how i would have prepared for my future well.
[28:52] I mean it was certainly wild for me to see this sort of manifest because I've, you know, since I was younger than you, I was in my mid-teens, I was sort of advocating for free market healthcare, free market education of children. And of course, I was always told that, you know, the education of the young is so important. It's so essential that we can't leave it to the free market and the education, sorry, and the healthcare availability is so essential. We can't leave it to the free market. And then for six, 12, 18 months in some places, some places maybe even a little longer, healthcare was significantly less accessible. And there's no one alive who imagined that the kids were getting any kind of education over COVID.
[29:46] No the people were just on zoom calls and and you know they were probably cheating their way through exams and i don't say this with any you know any there's no moral issue with regards to that i'm just sort of talking about the factual realities that.
[30:03] Apparently as it turned out healthcare is pretty optional as is the education of children doesn't really matter if if you have a a virus that uh has a you know what's it i mean depending on, depending on which age group you look at 99 plus percent survival rate and you know, almost no kids died of it like it doesn't matter it doesn't matter um you you could just remove all of that stuff from society and it's fine. And there wasn't even much of a debate. There wasn't like, I mean, imagine if some free market guy came along and said, well, you know, we do want to transition to free market healthcare. We do want to transition to free market education, but it's going to be 12, 16, 18 months where the kids are basically not going to get any education and the sick are going to have significantly reduced access to screenings in healthcare, preventive care, and so on, people would lose their minds. Well, you can't do that. You can't have kids for a year, a year and a half without any particular education. It'd be a disaster. However, under COVID, anyway, I mean, we could sort of jawbone that all day, but yeah, it's a pretty wild, pretty wild scenario and situation.
[31:20] It'd be funny if they shut down the public schools perpetually and, you know, no outcomes change and the, and the train still run on time and people still work the same jobs as everything. I would think that's a funny, that would be a funny social experiment.
[31:35] Mike thinks we'd improve. And it's funny too, because, you know, I mean, if you homeschool, everyone's like, how are your kids going to socialize? It's like, well, how are they going to socialize locked up for a year, year and a half in their rooms? I don't know. I mean, it's crazy. You've got people getting arrested for walking alone on a beach. You've got people wearing masks in the ocean. I mean, I remember there was a video of a guy biking along some country lane in England fairly fast and some woman screams at him as he goes by, not social distancing. It's like bros going 40 miles an hour on a bike. But apparently the virus can go 41 miles an hour because magic. So so yeah how long did it take to i guess for the bottom to fall out with you regarding the covet stuff.
[32:29] Um it was over that summer of yeah the summer the summer after, so like at the certain point where um what's it called it was everything was all quarantined it was that summer afterwards after after i was um on zoom calls that i just decided hey i'm quitting i'm dropping out guys was.
[32:59] It like a year year and a bit you're a little.
[33:01] Less than a year yeah a little less than a year that's what i'd say okay right but the the public school thing where obviously I wasn't against public school when I was in it as a kid. I viewed it as my means of getting ready to be a high-powered professional person. But when my mom died, I just felt this immense social emptiness. There's no love there. There's no richness of human experience where you know people care about you. In an intimate way where you experience that every day and it replaces family life because you're there six, seven, eight hours a day and I'm there longer because I'm doing all this stuff with school. It was...
[33:51] It was so disheartening that suddenly I couldn't even tolerate it. So it's like, I have to leave. It's my junior year. I have to leave. I have to go somewhere else my senior year, dad.
[34:03] And it was kind of a big ask because it's like you're going to a private school and it was kind of bougie. So I got a good scholarship and everything. But it's kind of an ask to say, hey, I was in public school doing really well this whole time. All of a sudden i want to leave and put down you know 10 20 30 k at some private school anywhere um but he accepted he went along with it but um yeah it was just strange having that feeling of uh i can't take this nobody nobody actually cares about you and and viscerally feeling that because like i was able to tolerate it and go along for so long you know when i was stressed out when i was, you know marching band you spend you spend 15 hours a week doing that it was a competitive one so um doing competitive marching band doing my violin doing my high academics while also taking care of my mom every now and then i don't know how i was able to do that but once she was gone i just kind of um emotionally couldn't take it anymore so i could tolerate like the farce of nobody really cares about you nobody like loves you deeply at this public school environment but when i was doing all the stressful stuff but after she's gone for some reason i couldn't take it anymore and.
[35:29] Was did it sort of slowly come across or just like it all sort of fell at once.
[35:33] Um this This was before COVID. It all sort of fell once. It's like two weeks afterwards. I'm like, two weeks afterwards, I'm like, I got to leave. I got to go somewhere else next year, dad. So that was the decision. That's why I made the decision quickly. It was another impulsive decision point. Okay you know my my dad was kind of similar not not the same exactly but he kind of remarried remarried within less than a year and my um my sisters didn't like that i was fine with it but um, i quickly tried to adjust as soon as possible and figure out how we were going to deal with it because it's it's like when you're in that situation for psychologically when you're in that situation it's like you can't have to move a different mode you have to get i have to get somewhere or else i'm going to drown okay.
[36:33] So then after about a year of of school you you left right.
[36:38] That's right right.
[36:40] And then what.
[36:44] And that's when i was converting to catholicism so i went through the year of catechism and i was baptized uh year after that and i got extremely active i was um, i went you might know about like the traditionalists and everything, i went straight to like the fssp which is the tradition and they have the this latin mass and everything i don't know if you've heard of that stuff in that culture but i started ultra serving a bunch there. I started taking it so seriously, going to daily mass and everything. And, you know, converts, zeal, and you.
[37:28] Um i think it i think there was a synergy there where it's not necessarily, bad to be devout or to take it very seriously but also with like the kind of neurotic mentality that i had where it was just a bad situation where it led to something called scrupulosity and and this kind of neurotic behavior scrupulosity is where you're always concerned that you've sinned even though you haven't so even though you haven't sinned you're worried oh maybe you did or you're hyper focused on whether or not you sinned um and this can kind of really mess with you and it's kind of it's kind of an aspect it's like a religious neuroses basically and um i was also severely isolated because my high school friends my college friends they're they're gone now and i'm just focused i'm coming into the church as this kind of online loner neat well.
[38:34] What was your what was your history with religion prior.
[38:37] I was so my my dad was kind of a cradle catholic stopped going to church um my mom was this evangelical protestant you know the charismatics and everything and so i went to church with her and around 11 12 years old you know several things happen i become disenchanted with it because it's a very it's a very emotive like religious expression the evangelicals they're they're shouting they're hollering they're they're speaking in tongues and all this stuff kind of pentecostal almost and um to me it just doesn't look mature or sophisticated or intellectually robust and this is around 11 or 12 and then i'm also exposed to online pornography at like age 11, I start I start also seeing this new atheist content on the internet um and.
[39:34] Yeah sorry i'll be a bit succinct there start start um viewing all this new atheist content on there i become an atheist and kind of reject the early religion and that's why i get really liberal and i'm i become super progressive and i'm phone canvassing for bernie sanders, you are a focused young man yes i know i know i know so imagine just this 15 year old nerd like phone canvassing for Bernie Sanders really want him to win and stuff. Just.
[40:10] Like a liberal atheist kid. But after my mom dies that's actually when I start is this correct? Because I probably was consuming your content a couple years before she died. But after she died really started shifting and like I said kind of loner person on the internet a long amount of time. Quote-unquote radicalize on the internet become more conservative become more traditional, and so by 2021 you know i've converted to catholicism and because of that political purview i for some reason it's like weird because it's like this convert kid knows to go well let me go to the latin mass and the traditionalist is like well how did you know about all this well just basically some kid on the internet basically um so it's this shift over time so to summarize it i was an atheist for most of my adolescence after my mom's death it kind of shook me a bit and it's like you know with the left and the bernie sanders and the progressives and the and the atheism there's a forgetfulness of death and there's also there's also a kind of.
[41:26] Um utopian sub subconscious utopian delusion that everybody's going to have this nice middle class life like me and that's what we're working towards free college, free healthcare, free everything, everybody's going to have this nice upper middle class, life that I grew up with so it's just a very unrealistic kind of utopian view of life, so when death cuts into there, it kind of debunks the whole thing, well it's like, you haven't solved anything you haven't solved the issue of death you haven't figured out the actual purpose of things hmm Yeah.
[42:02] I mean, it's very materialistic and hedonistic because it's just about free stuff.
[42:05] Yes, yes.
[42:06] If I have enough free stuff, I'll be happy. And it's not really how it works. I mean, just look at everyone who wins the lottery, right? Pretty miserable.
[42:17] I don't understand.
[42:18] Well, I mean, if you sort of follow a lot of people who win the lottery, they win millions and millions of dollars. And, you know, for a significant proportion of them, their life just goes to hell.
[42:30] Yeah, but I like, I'm sorry, I just, I like free stuff because you give hours and hours and hours of free content on free domain. Right, right, right.
[42:42] It's not free.
[42:43] But yeah, I get it.
[42:44] I get it. I get it.
[42:47] Don't worry, I donated a little bit because I remember this one call in like 10 years ago. You're like, oh, you know, I've done like a thousand hours of stuff and you paid zero dollars. So you donated $10 and that amounts to like one cent per 10 hours.
[43:05] Yes. Yes, that's true.
[43:11] Sorry, I just had to say that.
[43:13] Okay, it's fine.
[43:14] Yeah, and the eggs. free eggs free.
[43:17] Eggs all right so how did you scrupulosity was that the word how did you deal with that.
[43:23] Well um hmm scrupulosity so i was going to confession a lot um, um how i solved it it's kind of hard to say i think at a certain point it just went away over time i i became depressed at that point in time so with the depression it kind of distracted me from from sin and it kind of just phased over phased over that um at this point in time Like I said, it's partially the scrupulosity, but partially the isolation of, I removed myself from my high school friend group, I removed myself from my college friend group, and I'm entering into this weird section of the church.
[44:19] What do you mean by this weird section of the church?
[44:23] Well it's they the Latin mass people they focus on, they focus on this particular liturgy above all they generally have a kind of distant view of, most Catholics they view most Catholics as not being very devout they don't actually believe the stuff you know a lot of people you know there's certain teachings that a large majority, of Catholics like don't really think about or care about um obvious example is contraception um and so they view them as lax and not devout and that the liturgy the the expression of the faith and the mass everything at the novus ordo is is not reverent enough and so we have to do it like they did before vatican ii we have to do it where you say it all in latin and the priest is facing the crucifix instead of facing the people now and.
[45:22] So these parishes, these Latin mass parishes kind of have a seclusive, mentality to them where it's very distinct from you know, if you just walk into a regular Catholic church, it's not going to be said in Latin, it's not going to have that kind of community of people so there's this kind of seclusive aspect to them and I didn't really does that make sense? Yeah, I didn't really bond with many people there because everybody just had their own family there and I'm coming in there as like a loner convert. So I didn't really make many close friends there. And I just kind of socially failed a little bit in that respect.
[46:07] So you didn't make too many close friends there. What's the number?
[46:13] Maybe two or three. I have more online friends.
[46:17] No, but two or three close friends is pretty good.
[46:20] Yeah, but I was being euphemistic. Like, we wouldn't spend weekends with each other. We wouldn't contact each other outside of church. It's just people that I get along with.
[46:31] Close friends.
[46:31] Yeah. Sorry, I...
[46:33] No, that's fine. I just wanted to... Because, you know, when people say, well, it didn't make a huge number of close friends, it's like, I mean, you don't really need that many because they can't be close if there's too many, right?
[46:43] Yeah. No, that's right. I actually made, I'll say, two close friends online. So, you know, Neatdom did yield two friends. Friends that I would literally, that I physically visited. So it's not even online anymore, because we physically visited each other plenty of times. So those people have been very socially helpful in my life, especially after converting to Catholicism, because they're like the only serious Catholic friends that I've bonded with, and would literally like fly to see each other. Those are the only kind of people that I have in my life at this point in time that are at that level.
[47:26] So you say need them, that's not an education, employment or training, right? So what did you do after you left the conservatory?
[47:37] You know, this is going to sound ridiculous. after so it's like my dad's not happy that I dropped out because he, i'm supposed you're so smart you know x you're so you're so intelligent you're supposed to become a professional and everything um so he's like oh well here's your grandfather's um college education trust that i had and it was like 20k and i yolo'd it all into bitcoin really, yeah it's like 2020 i yolo it all into bitcoin and it did it did okay um okay so then i had some savings enough saving and i also i also worked at retail so i worked at my dad's office and i worked a couple retail jobs so it's not like i did nothing right um so that's technically employment but you know it's not it's not the kind of employment that is like economically meaningful no because it's like it's grocery money but um yeah i had enough savings to stay on my own in um an apartment for one year um just off of the savings and everything, but savings don't last forever i don't have i'm not rich i don't have a lot of money however i do have no debt no college debt i paid it all off and um i do have enough savings to like survive a couple years um.
[49:07] But the isolation, the severe isolation is when the mental issues started. So I had periods of psychosis and depression that were very severe.
[49:20] Okay, so hang on. So tell me, what year was that?
[49:24] This is 2020, late 2022, early 2023.
[49:31] Okay, so you're working away at your dad's office. You're doing a bit of retail. You're hounding bitcoin prices in your mind's eye refresh refresh refresh.
[49:39] And yes so.
[49:42] And and you've got some online friends you've got some church acquaintances i suppose and how does it go from there to the psychosis.
[49:52] So that's what's your theory about that right so then i'm in this apartment and i live alone so i so then i got this apartment alone for one year and um this is when it started the severe isolation of being there alone um and i don't live with anybody else i barely interact with anybody else for most of the day well.
[50:15] Hang on what about you look.
[50:17] Oh at the work i'd be upstairs just entering um stuff and entering i was doing like the billing stuff so it's like the insurance claims okay you submit that to insurance so i'm i'm just upstairs doing desk work alone okay i'm not talking with customers so then i'm in my mind for most of the time and um and so i'm just like i'm just like immersed in my inner life, and my inner thoughts and everything for for too much and too long in an intense way we.
[50:51] Haven't um we haven't talked about your dating at all.
[50:53] Yes so i'm a virgin never had a girlfriend, It's part of the social awkwardness. And in college, it got close. I asked this girl out, but I don't know if I would say a mental breakdown, but severe insecurity, severe lack of confidence related to the pornography. Because, you know, this is before Catholicism. At that point in time, it's like years of addiction, right?
[51:23] Like the pornographic addiction, right?
[51:25] Yes, that's right. and it definitely it definitely in the in the in the, not neatdom but being an online person it kind of fed into being a bit neuro atypical and insecure, and so I did ask her out and obviously completely flopped because she's like are you okay man you're like, you're like freaking out you're like so afraid of asking me out even though I spent I spent so much time with this person and I and I like knew them well and i was comfortable around them it's like oh when when you're asking someone out you have to freak out and you have to like poop your pants and stuff um but i'll tell you this before i like specifically asked her out this is how tried i was i asked to go to the grocery store with her, and um you know when i go to the grocery store with my mom i'd hate it so much but when i went with her it was the it was you know fantastic experience just like einstein says where it's like, what's that story he says where you're at the stove, and you got your hand on the stove and it feels like an hour if you have your hand on the stove for one minute but if you're talking to a nice girl it lasts only 10 minutes, Right But yeah, so never had a girlfriend.
[52:44] So the girl didn't go to the grocery store with you?
[52:47] No, she did go to the grocery store with me Oh.
[52:49] And then?
[52:50] But this is before I explicitly asked her out Oh, okay, okay, It was obviously me being so interested in her. What I thought was funny about this story, even though it's not super funny, is that it's obviously a hint. There's no reason a boy would ever want to go to the grocery store with you unless they were extremely interested in you. There's no reason that would happen.
[53:17] Okay.
[53:17] But she didn't get it.
[53:18] But what about, that's in your 20s?
[53:21] Yeah, 23.
[53:22] But what about your, no, I mean, how old were you when you were asking the girl out?
[53:27] 19.
[53:28] Okay, what about high school, junior high, high school?
[53:31] Yeah, I was a late bloomer. And then, you know, it's like half the kids are addicted to pornography. By the way, at that point in time, it's really kind of messed up. But I was a late bloomer. And again, I was kind of socially awkward. And you know there was this one girl that i i was socially awkward but i was reasonably popular because i was known as an intelligent and talented person it's like oh he's the violent kid and he's really smart and blah blah blah but um i wasn't like super close with people individually i was just you know kind of set on a pedestal a little bit and there was this one girl that they were expecting me to ask out but i i just never did because of that personal fear that that personal social anxiety the fear of rejection was way worse with me than with other people i i took this stuff like way too seriously and so i would just have these internal infatuations, and did your father.
[54:37] Or siblings not help you out or notice this challenge.
[54:40] No no i'm i'm more distant from my father okay okay yeah i.
[54:50] Assume your friends were they in similar situations with regards to girls.
[54:54] Uh yes but you know there was a couple of them that that had a high school girlfriend you know where it was it's this very casual thing and they just find a companion for for high school and it doesn't continue to college of course because all these kids are crying to go even if they're even if they're like you know the mid-level the the b's and the c's people they're trying to go to a state school and everything um to a state college and so everybody's like well we're not going to see you we're not going to see each other by the time we graduate so we'll have a companion when we're in high school so a couple of them did have girlfriends and it's like it's not a big deal i'm not i'm not extremely unattractive i'm not obese or anything I look normal, so it I think it was just kind of an early on sign with me that you know I have some kind of, I wouldn't say social anxiety, but some kind of issue with my own ego and my own sense of security and my own ability to face rejection and my own ability to calm down, to be casual, to be relaxed. So I was always this very intense, high-power person. I have to do the greatest thing ever. I have to always succeed. I have to. So the idea of failing at all was unacceptable to me.
[56:18] Okay, so we get to, was it 2022 or 2023? Where you were spending too much time alone?
[56:24] That's right. So late 2022, early 2023, I am in this apartment alone. And I'm just on the computer a lot. Or I'm altar serving.
[56:36] You're what?
[56:38] Altar serving. So at mass, you go and serve at the altar and you help the priest conduct the mass.
[56:45] I'm so sorry. I thought you said ultra serving. Okay, ultra serving. Okay, got it. Got it. My bad.
[56:51] Yeah. it was ultra important though yeah so yeah yeah so i was doing that a lot but other than that spending a lot of time on the computer and you know working at my dad's office i was alone and i was in my own inner thoughts a lot and just kind of this intense person is like oh i'm catholic now i have to take this so seriously and this is the most important thing ever and and the scrupulosity and the kind of neurotic mentality facilitated uh the psychosis and the particular psychosis was having um these delusions out of reality like delusions of grandeur like um, Like, my everyday experience was way more important than it actually is. And also, beliefs about becoming a very important, being an important public figure of some kind that is unrealistic. For example, being a bishop, or the bishop of Rome, or stuff like that. And this was the kind of delusions that I would have.
[57:58] Sorry, I'm not aware of, like, why is that inherently unrealistic for you? I mean, maybe a bishop of Rome, but what about becoming fairly high up in the church if you were to focus on that? Why is that innately implausible?
[58:13] Because it had already, so within the church, you have like a spiritual director and the Latin mass people, they take all this really serious. There's like this big Catholic system and everybody's kind of really parsed out and taken care of through a hierarchy of people, even down to the local parish. So like your pastor is your spiritual director and he's noticing, hey, ex, you know, you're, you're kind of a, you know, psychologically volatile person and, you know, you obviously wanted to get married. You're obviously not meant for the religious life. You're not meant for a religious vocation at all. And you're not going to be a priest.
[58:53] And that's what you were told.
[58:54] Yes.
[58:55] Okay. Got it.
[58:56] Yes. So it was already made clear to me that I'm not going to be a priest of any kind. So these delusions were, and it's not just about being high up in the church, it's about delusions of grandeur, as if some very important momentous thing is going to happen soon. And it's just in a way that was clearly unrealistic. But fortunately fortunately like 90 of the time i'm lucid and well hang on sorry these delusions tell me.
[59:28] What what happened with this uh.
[59:31] Oh yes you say okay it's also a factor that i became more aggressive now i've never been violent or like aggressive maybe that's like dangerous to people but i was away from my family for most of the time not really communicating with them um even though i live close with them and so i started this is why i started communicating with them again and like aggressive like oh you know catholicism is so serious and you guys are you know not good and i'm kind of flubbing describing it but eventually so eventually they take me into my dad's office, and my aunts and uncles relatives that weren't spending a lot of time with me, confront me in my dad's office and they threaten me and they say we're going to call the cops unless you go to a psychiatric facility.
[1:00:32] But based on what?
[1:00:37] Based on a particular story of this so i i think i said something off color to one of the fellow employees at my dad's office, and she didn't react well to it at all so instead of telling me hey you know, i don't like what you said she didn't say anything to me and she just kind of like hollered at my dad and and told told everybody else you know he's messed up so i didn't even know you don't have.
[1:01:08] To repeat it but i'm not sure what you mean by off color.
[1:01:12] Just talking to her about my family. It's like, I want them to understand that they're so sinful and they're so terrible. And, you know, I guess in this way that was, I guess in this way where like the body language and the way I said it was also off color in a way that like disturbed her. I'm sorry. It's, it's difficult for me to describe. I'm trying a little bit, but that's fine.
[1:01:38] You're doing good. You're doing well. Sorry.
[1:01:40] Yeah. But anyway, so she goes, And she talks to them, and she freaks out with them.
[1:01:48] Sorry, them being your dad.
[1:01:50] Wasn't it? My dad, but also my other relatives, even though they weren't directly spending time with me. This cycle happens several times of this telephone game they have where they receive very little input from me, but they go to each other and say, hey I'm really worried about him there's something wrong with him I'm really worried about and they kind of form this hornet's nest but this is the first time it happens so my the other medical professional aunt and my other relatives they come to my dad's office and they sit me down my dad's office saying you know you're acting really weird and you have to go to a psychiatric facility and they didn't directly communicate this to me until this big intervention there, oh they say.
[1:02:43] We're going to call the cops if you don't go to a.
[1:02:45] Yeah right yeah okay it's it's like you know it was like zero to one you might say and i'm like okay you know fine i'll go along with it as a kind of a religious appeal to help convert my family or something like that where it's like i'm gonna go you know because i was kind of um they might say like manic a bit where it's where, i felt courageous and heroic enough to like say yes so it wasn't just a capitulatory yes it was like a heroic yes well i'm gonna help you guys by by going to this facility or whatever so i go along with it one of the most traumatic experiences of my life um because internally i'm like freaking out that they're forcing this to happen so um i eventually end up at the facility, and it's extremely stressful and um and i i will describe maybe a little later i will describe, what it's like being in those facilities, it's not good. I understand that there's an issue of medication and intervention in this kind of extreme scenario, but there's also just a fact of you don't feel like a human being anymore when you're in these facilities, and there's a kind of deterministic, and a kind of deterministic.
[1:04:13] Relationship with the patient um so and that sorry determinism as in you don't have a soul you don't have a personage really they're just watching they're just witnessing you from a distance kind of spying on you witnessing you from a distance observing you and only giving you medications and and that's the and that's the that's tantamount to the majority of the interaction that they're going to have and how they're intervening with you yeah.
[1:04:44] I mean the biochemical imbalance or whatever theory doesn't seem to be particularly valid according to some testing but that's their general idea that you're imbalanced and they need to balance you with meds and then you'll be fine right.
[1:04:55] Right right and it doesn't account for it doesn't account for you know the early life experiences you had or your relationship with your family or your relationship with the people that are giving witness in this particular circumstance it's Like sometimes I can easily imagine, you know, I don't just imagine. I kind of witnessed it a few times where I was concerned about other patients. It seemed like you could be put in there based off of a poor witness. And just because other families are, other family members are exasperated with you and they can just send you there. But you're the odd one out that ends up there in the first place. So you kind of have the, the, the number sticker stamped on you. And so you're treated like you're treated in a special way like the one that's out of reality the one that has severe issues, based off of not necessarily false witness of family members but just like they're the ones pointing the finger.
[1:05:58] Now in my case it's like there is something wrong I am having these delusions but also the way they intervened and the way they kind of tried to solve it my family i felt was like disastrous and and um extremely harmful so i'm in there for um, a week and a half two weeks and i just received this medication that, that has extreme side effects where i literally feel like my iq is reduced by a standard deviation, and i'm having difficulty reading and concentrating at all so it's just like this really scary initial experience because i've had i i do have medication right now the medication i have now the side effect profile is way less and it's way better so this initial experience where it's like this extreme the the anti-psychotic was basically there to just kind of reduce your mind it's like oh he's thinking too quickly he's he's thinking too much and he's thinking too extremely so it was just there to like dim your brain dim your mind so that i couldn't concentrate i couldn't even think as quickly at all right okay so this first experience was really scary and um.
[1:07:20] And it was just kind of like this wound that formed on me and um i went on i was hospitalized a couple more times but you know being in these places kind of like wounded me a lot because it it doesn't solve anything really they they just sit you there almost like an animal observing you for for weeks on end you're you're not even able to go outside uh for most of these places and so you're just in this hallway for like weeks on end and if you walk if you try and distract yourself by walking from each side of the hallway it's always deemed as pacing oh it's, Instead of walking, it's pacing, just so that it has a negative connotation to further justify your identification in this facility. And...
[1:08:17] Well, I don't know where I was going with it right now, but this experience kind of wounded me and reduced my will to live.
[1:08:26] So tell me a little bit about the psychosis, because you were talking about having, we say, delusions of grandeur, I'm going to be some big mover and shaker and so on. Even if we put those in the category, and of course, we're just using these terms as rank amateurs, but even if we just put these in the category of delusions of grandeur, isn't psychosis like real visions and hallucinations, or did you not experience any of that stuff?
[1:08:48] Exactly i did not experience any of those things so um it's kind of weird because you know it's like they have this big fat dsm and sometimes they kind of throw a lot of diagnostic labels at people depending on which hospital you're at and which doctor you're talking to but the eventual label that i have is some kind of schizophrenia or schizo effective or manic psychosis. I have not had hallucinations. I've not had visions of those kinds. I have not heard things that aren't there. It's more these intellectual delusions. I'm stuck listening. I'm stuck with healthcare professionals for years asking me these questions over and over again. Are you hearing things that are not there? Are you seeing things that are not there? Are you having hallucinations of some kind? And me always answering no, but they always ask it to me over and over again, as if that's part of my diagnostic criteria. And it's not. So that's your answer no i'm not lying okay no i believe.
[1:09:59] You and so you said that it was kind of like it kind of was really upsetting do you mean the first one or the subsequent ones or just the combo.
[1:10:07] The combo every time is um every time was was very distressing but um the story's a little different on on each time i was in these facilities um but in general i would describe the conditions are, you know, you know, some places the conditions are fine, you know, it's pretty quality and, um, you're, you're fed decently, you're sleeping decently. It's, it's, it's not like a prison camp or anything, but just the experience of you have a bunch of professionals that aren't really caring about you for most of the day, but are secretly observing you. And so it's like, they're not really paying attention to you that much during the day, But it's like if there's any abnormal behavior at all, they make sure to record that down. So it's like, you know, the 1% of the time where you do anything that's weird at all, they're going to record that. And also, they completely put you in very abnormal conditions that aren't conducive to you acting, quote unquote, normally. They take away all your clothes sometimes. They keep you inside to the point that you barely see the light of the day. Most of the time, and you just have these hospital lights, you know, those glaring hospital lights that you just have to deal with. I forget what it's called, the fake blue light or something.
[1:11:35] You're stuck in there. You don't have many activities to do. So you're extremely bored. That was probably the most difficult part, is like, you know, at a certain point, I start counting down how much longer, how much longer every day. Because if you're in there for a week, or two weeks, or three weeks or four weeks, you're stuck there doing nothing all day. And, um.
[1:12:01] It's like, I don't know if you've tried this before, it's very socially dislocating, it's very psychologically stressful to be in that situation where there's not much activities to do. So I ended up, you know, in one of these places, literally just walking in the hallway for hours on end. And like, this is considered an abnormal behavior, because I'm doing it for such a long amount of time. But it's also the reality of you know you guys aren't producing an environment where people act naturally you've like taken away my humanity i know that sounds a little romantic but it's like you take away my humanity you're not interacting with me you're not communicating with me at all, and you're just deciding when i'm going to leave based off of hidden observations that you guys make so i have no idea why i'm going to leave i have nothing to do and i'm walking back and forth for hours on end to try and fill the time. And basically the only, like I said before, the reason I said determinism is because basically one of the only interactions you have is when you receive the medication.
[1:13:03] And that's the only form of treatment that they view as essential, compared to talking with me, learning anything about my life, etc.
[1:13:20] So every time I'm in these places, it's so, it kind of drains my will to live and everything I don't know how I'm going to function because it imprints on me subconsciously you know oh because I'm doing nothing I'm not able to do anything, and this is what life is I'm just going to be stuck in these kinds of places forever and it's just going to be hell and.
[1:13:52] And then i and then i get out and i'm normal and live a normal life again and everything but but it's just it's such a difficult experience to go through um.
[1:14:04] While still having the idea, the prospect of, oh, I'm going to supposed to be, I'm supposedly going to be a legitimate person, quote unquote, legitimate, valid person that is eventually going to find some kind of career, is eventually going to meander in some time into some kind of marriage or relationship and to have a future. When deep down i'm concerned i don't have a future i don't know what i'm going to do with my life i don't know if i'm going to find anybody that's going to accept me and that's going to love me in that intimate way and so this is the bedrock point that i've reached um and, you know when i get when it gets really bad i it makes me depressed where i'm like i don't know what the meaning of my life is or i don't even know if i want to continue living, and of course i i do accept that i have to continue living i do have to continue going day by day and so i try and have that day by day mentality now in order to maintain mental health you know catholic teaching is is you're required to live even if you don't like it, but i'm just telling you this is how i feel deep down and this is why i pulled the trigger and and wanted to talk to you.
[1:15:23] Got it okay so how can i best help you in the time that we have left.
[1:15:31] Well um, Maybe I still kind of wanted to talk about my family relationships because, well, okay, so there's two things. There's two things there's thinking about my future of you know how am i going to deal with the fact that i left college and how am i going to not only how am i going to deal with that psychologically but how am i going to deal with that practically in terms of trying to move on with my life and there's also looking at the past looking at my some of my family relationships that i have that are really disordered so maybe i'll start with the family again okay um, So my dad, so my sisters are, so my brother is developmentally disabled to the point where he's like a toddler still. He's slightly older than me, but he's like a toddler. And so he's unable to speak or anything, but he's taken care of by a healthcare, not by a healthcare professional, but he's taken care of by a special needs professional and everything. So he's doing okay, and he lives like a toddler. But my older sisters are very liberal. they are not Catholic obviously none of my family is Catholic except for me so I'm kind of isolated in that perspective and.
[1:17:00] I just I don't just feel distant I just am distant from my family because of the religious and political views my sisters are lesbians, they're both lesbians and everything and And, And actually, one of them got fake married and stuff, and she has my mom's ring.
[1:17:31] And obviously, I'm Catholic, and I can't accept it.
[1:17:44] And for some reason we still have this tenuous pretend relationship where we pretend that we're fine with each other and everything, but we're not. And I know anytime someone speaks against my sister's ego, I'm talking about my second eldest sister's ego, or would say anything to condemn her or to go against her, that she would freak out and have a temper tantrum against me. And this is um the negative reaction that i have a biggest fear of from childhood is because if i go against her ego or or disagree with her in any way uh including politically from from, from being young that she would always freak out at me and so it's like i never talk about it and that's the only reason she's never blown up at me but it's like if i said what i actually think, she would actually have a really negative response so there's just this underlying pressure there that I have with her and, I mean I resent a little bit that she has our mom's ring because it's part of my it's not a delusion of grandeur but it's part of my like, hopeless aspirations like well what if I get married one day I want to use my mom's ring and stuff.
[1:19:03] But But anyway, it's like, so we pretend we're close, but we're not. And there's also the fact that my dad remarried, but he remarried in a way that...
[1:19:20] Uh wasn't really good like i was fine with it in the beginning before i converged into catholicism but he was he was raised catholic right so my dad's side is people that are baptized raised catholic and with those kinds of rules it's a bit more serious and they're supposed to marry a catholic or they're supposed to marry someone that's eligible in some way and this lady was formerly um divorced and everything i didn't tell you when i dropped out i moved back with my father of course and so um we kind of had a negative relationship there where you know, um him personally him making that personal choice and everything i i'm fine with it i'm not an antagonistic person right i'm a bit more of a secluded person so i don't like actively antagonize people all the time but the fact is like he goes with her obviously um i don't live with him anymore but he goes with her in any conflict of she's displeased so if she's ever displeased in some way or finds a complaint she she's she secretly goes to him and complains to him and then he acts like the attack dog coming back to me it's like you caused a problem with her you disrespected her in some inane way um and this cycle repeated until he kicked me out.
[1:20:44] And that's when you took the place on your own.
[1:20:46] Um i took the place on my own a couple years before this um he he actually kicked me out uh recently how long and so now so now i live with other relatives so.
[1:21:00] How long ago.
[1:21:01] Um a couple months ago and.
[1:21:04] What precipitated that.
[1:21:05] Again it was the repeated cycle of of um uh me having there's some kind of antagonist, antagonistic position in terms of his marriage and his relationship with this woman and i think it was the fact that she she decided to finally cut the cord on me it's like no i don't want him to live here anymore my my other brother and his caretaker used to live with them but she cut the cord on on them too because she had problems with the caretaker who is a person you know the caretaker is a person that sometimes isn't able to live with and interact with certain people um well in close quarters so they had some snafu and she eventually had them kicked out, so i was next after that because there's always something to there's always some microaggression to complain about behind my back and to complain to him, without directly communicating with me. Got it okay so there's several i'm just saying there's this repeated cycle of several social failures where pierce we have a failure to communicate um where people don't directly communicate with me but then it somehow comes back and hits me.
[1:22:23] Okay okay and when was the last time you had you know positive reliable interactions with your dad.
[1:22:32] Um positive, reliable interactions with him.
[1:22:41] Or I guess the longest you got along.
[1:22:45] We got along and, I'd say before I moved out for that one year and stayed alone, and then I was hospitalized and came back and everything. Before that, that was the time when we had reliable, continuous interactions that were positive. But I think deep down, he was kind of displeased that I dropped out, of course, and this kind of slowly hemorrhaged the relationship. But my definitive answer is right before I left and stayed in that apartment for one year. I didn't leave because of some great displeasure and everything. I wanted to feel independent for a year.
[1:23:36] Right and then you you felt you spent too much time alone right.
[1:23:38] Exactly right.
[1:23:40] Okay okay so things are kind of frosty with your sisters you have the developmentally disabled brother your mother's dead and your relationship with your father is pretty fractious right.
[1:23:50] That's right okay.
[1:23:52] Are you still working.
[1:23:54] So uh i started working uber ah okay okay so i mean it makes me feel a little better because neatdom was um hyperbolic i'd say there were times where i was just where i was not employed at all but i it's like i do work and everything but it's just kind of low-level work like this working my dad's office was probably the best job i did and um it paid decently and everything but um yeah so now i'm just driving uber now but it's like long term this was just this anxiety about what am i going to do long term even even people that do uber they only do it for a couple of years because of the costs associated with it.
[1:24:42] And how do you have a car.
[1:24:47] Oh remember i had the savings i i purchased oh okay the bitcoin stuff.
[1:24:50] Right okay got.
[1:24:51] It and my my dad gave me his old truck and then i traded it in as well okay.
[1:24:56] Got it All right. So that's the family stuff. And then you said you also have some discombobulation about... School leaving school.
[1:25:10] That's right and, i know that people survive and sometimes even thrive without a college degree but, for me it's like i i was i did well in school i did ap classes and everything, so it i had the mentality that my career was going to be derived from one of these bureaucratic conveyor belt kind of, conveyor belts that lead that just magically lead to a career because obviously if you're going to the medical industry it's a very clear, it's very clear how that turns into a career and how you get hired but outside of that I'm a bit lost to it because, I don't know perhaps your background is a bit different um sorry i i don't remember yours you did finish school you did get the phd with the you did the phd thesis right no.
[1:26:17] It was a master's degree.
[1:26:18] Oh it was a master's degree but i i left.
[1:26:22] I left theater school.
[1:26:23] You left theaters oh another guy that leaves art school yeah.
[1:26:27] And for similar reasons.
[1:26:29] Yeah um so i don't know how i'm going to land after this and of course i became like more enamored with financial stuff and with speculation because when it's a rabbit hole of course and when you when you're enamored by crypto then you start getting interested in financial markets itself, and um so i i i've been an autodidactic person so i've learned a lot about, markets and learned a lot about like financial instruments and stuff over time but um, i still don't necessarily know what's going to turn out with with me personally i did have a stint where I went back to school. But the stress, I was working at my dad's office still and the stress of it, and the psychological issues forced me to stop doing it again. Because I literally, I actually don't know how people work and go to school at the same time because it would take all the time to work for my dad and then I would try and take these classes to finish it. It just didn't work out basically.
[1:27:42] Were you working full time?
[1:27:44] Yes. Yeah so i had a stint of going to school but then i just i just couldn't take going back to it you know and.
[1:27:55] What were you taking.
[1:27:55] I was taking a couple prerequisite courses to prepare for like, there's this two-year track to be a a a radiation therapist not not not like the x-ray but for like the cancer radiation so there's this two-year track but i needed to do some prerequisites so i was doing you know anatomy and a couple prerequisite courses like that but for some reason i just couldn't do it and maybe it's because i'm not fully interested in i'm way more interested in the financial markets like that's something that i'm actually interested in but i don't have a bunch of capital to speculate on so.
[1:28:38] Where would you ideally like to be in a couple of years.
[1:28:45] I'd like to know what I'd like to have a higher paying job of some kind, or at least know what my career is. Maybe I could have some kind of independent work that's not dependent on college education. And I'd like to be married, but you know, I feel like those two things go together and I'm also anxious about, you know, are the psychological issues is that something that becomes me makes me a no-go zone, well what's the status.
[1:29:20] Of the psychological issues as you called them what's the status of them at the moment.
[1:29:23] Well it's fine i take medication i see a doctor um and, And the episodes are less severe. But still, there's been circumstances where I did have the delusions again, where they returned.
[1:29:44] You say the delusions of grandeur?
[1:29:47] The correct, correct.
[1:29:48] And this is not like you're the second coming, but rather that you can do big, big things in the world.
[1:29:54] Exactly.
[1:29:55] Okay, got it. And did you have the idea that you could do big, big things in the world? Was that something that is outside the realm of possibility? In terms of like um i i don't know what you're going to be a prima uh like a wrestler or like i don't know exactly what to put it but it's something that's very improbable.
[1:30:17] It's very improbable because it was it it was related to the religious fixation, and it was it's just in this particular way of like of being like a bishop or being the pope or something ridiculous or um or in some political avenue i don't know if you've heard of the sky like um curtis yarvin but he talks about this idea of a purple caesar and everything i'm like well i kind of look the part, but it's just it's just not practical in that certain way um i mean apart from unless i'm like napoleon returning from the exiled islands and somehow taking france again unless it's that it's not realistic yeah i mean they're kind of like daydreams.
[1:31:02] Rather than practical things you could achieve over time.
[1:31:04] Exactly and there's also the sense of imminence with them it's like this isn't going to happen years and years from now it's like it's going to happen soon which is another vector to it that makes it.
[1:31:17] I mean, it may just be a sort of reaction to feeling powerless. Is it a sort of daydreams?
[1:31:24] Yes. Yes. I think there's a subconscious aspect to it of feeling powerless in my circumstance, feeling empty, feeling purposeless, and it fills the void at a certain point. Right however i do think with the doctor and with the medication and if i have, better intimate relationships that they can keep me in this web so to speak so that i don't have those issues because those it really goes off course especially when i've been more isolated and haven't had external stimuli to help me to say and to say you know x you're in the wrong place, where are the ones that are where are the people around you that are responsible for helping define reality to you you're not going to be this you're not going to be that your your thinking is unrealistic right now you know i i need those um i need to have more time with uh people like that so i do have a couple of the internet friends but it's not enough, um and it's just deep down i want that security of being possessed by someone else no not possessed by a demon possessed by someone else, it's like you're gonna be okay i this way sorry.
[1:32:52] Can you say that.
[1:32:53] And despite your issues, so have you i got you yeah you're just cutting.
[1:32:59] Out a little bit from time to time it's all right.
[1:33:04] A deep desire of being possessed by someone else where it's, And they, they're, despite my flaws and the issues that I've had in the past.
[1:33:23] I'm so sorry, you cut out for a couple of seconds there. I just need you to repeat that again.
[1:33:29] So I desire to be possessed by someone in a way that they accept me, they've got me, they take care of me in a way that makes me feel more secure. So that I'm not worried that I'll be rejected again and I'll be rejected in a way that these issues that I've had, they're not able to be overcome. They're not able to be seen past.
[1:33:58] Right, okay. But that's more of a mother figure.
[1:34:03] Exactly. No mommy GF allowed. Right. But, um... No, obviously I can't be taken care of.
[1:34:15] There's a little bit what you're asking for, right? I understand that. It's not a criticism. But you can't, I mean, what would be in it for her?
[1:34:24] Exactly. It's like, I don't know. I think I am a virtuous person in some respects. i have i'm a faithful person um.
[1:34:40] There's no no hang on hang on so i'm not saying i'm not saying that you don't have value or values i'm not saying that at all just just to be clear, but i am saying that if you're saying well i want someone to fix me what would be in it for her, if you're a reclamation project or a prop-up project what would be in it for her if that makes sense.
[1:35:08] Oh, exactly. Um, yeah, I don't know. And I don't necessarily want to ask someone to fix me because I do have a doctor. I do have a medical relationship about this stuff. I'd rather want someone that accepts me. You know, that way that someone accepts you for who you are in an unconditional way.
[1:35:43] Hang on, hang on, hang on. So what do you mean by an unconditional way?
[1:35:48] Unconditional.
[1:35:49] Without values, without standards. You can't say I have value because I'm moral and then say, well, I want someone to accept me in an unconditional way.
[1:35:58] Unconditional is not a good word.
[1:36:00] Yeah.
[1:36:00] Because only God can really give you that kind of love.
[1:36:05] And um no but i just mean um with certain people um and this happens with family usually intuitively where you're you're willing to to like deal with them a little bit and there's a kind of um there's a kind of band of of tolerance that they have for you there's this general acceptance for you well hang on that so.
[1:36:39] Are we talking family in theory or your family in practice.
[1:36:44] Because we can't we.
[1:36:46] Can't talk theory at the moment.
[1:36:47] Okay i just wanted to hide in these um because you've done theory.
[1:36:54] For quite some time, right? That's part of the rumination, the introspection, the stuff that was too much on your own, right?
[1:37:05] Exactly.
[1:37:06] So let's not do theory or abstractions. Let's do practicals.
[1:37:14] Hmm.
[1:37:17] Okay. So, are you talking in terms of this acceptance? Are you talking about your family in particular? Or are you talking about families as a whole?
[1:37:41] I was describing it theoretically where... The problem is I was describing it theoretically that in a normal family relationship, relationship there's this tacit acceptance and toleration and endurance of difficulties with a person that you would not endure and that you would not embrace if it was just a stranger if it was just a uh acquaintance that you have that you know where they're willing to living, in close quarters with someone and dealing with their everyday bs quote unquote is not the same, as going to a bonfire on the weekend with them or having a meal with them occasionally. It's this kind of general acceptance that you have. If you live with them, for better or for worse, you deal with their issues and you work things out and you're willing to work things out, instead of with acquaintances, you might have some kind of difficulty and that meets a threshold where you just kind of dismiss them and you reject them and you just, well, I'll just spend time with someone else. You know what I'm saying?
[1:38:52] I'm not sure what that means in practicals.
[1:38:59] I guess I'm beating around the bush about the idea of being married.
[1:39:10] So I do want to eventually get married, but I don't know why I have to offer, practically.
[1:39:17] Tell me what, ideally, you'd like to have to offer.
[1:39:22] Well, I'd prefer to be able to live on my own and present like okay well this is a place where i live that that you could that you could um, stay with me at and this is our new home together i'd prefer to um have a career that's of some kind that's that's constructive and meaningful and seems secure to her um i would say um maintaining my faith is is the other box to check but i feel like i have that already checked where i take it very seriously i take virtue seriously i take the fidelity that is implied by marriage um seriously and it's like even though i might sin from time to time um the catholic faith is probably going to be a really important part of my life and so sometimes um sometimes the girls settle for guys that aren't as devout but are kind of secure and like have a good setup more they maybe they have a good career or something like that but um.
[1:40:31] But for me i feel like it's on the other side where i take the faith seriously enough that they don't have to worry if i'm going to go to mass on sunday that they don't have to worry if i'm going to be unfaithful that they don't have to worry about issues related to that and i take it i take spiritual development as something concrete and something real um that helps order who i am and i don't know i'd say that there's a value there where not everybody wants to um correct themselves like changing and correcting yourself in some way is like a a big ask that isn't always necessarily the case so sometimes people are are in these relationships with someone that isn't willing to change or isn't willing to correct themselves and transform their behavior and they just have to deal with it for years and years but if you take the faith seriously and you take development seriously then you're willing to be that kind of person that that works through an issue like that so i just think that's one example of something that's valuable about me that exists already um but again i don't have enough going on on the other two sectors right Okay.
[1:41:46] Got it. So, you last asked a girl out four years ago.
[1:41:54] That's right.
[1:41:55] So, what do you need to do?
[1:42:00] I need to ask one out.
[1:42:03] I think so. I mean, unless I completely missed my guess, I think so. Isn't that the case?
[1:42:10] Yeah. But it's like, oh, but aren't I a loser right now? Go on well it's like oh i just drive uber and stuff and and i live with family so, oh if they're going to take it seriously then then what's our future going to be like what's our prospects are going to be like you don't have anything go on you're you're you just go to church and you just do this stuff well it's like i can't just marry a church mouse we gotta live together we got to have a whole future with a bunch of kids yes and how are we gonna how are we gonna do this homeschooling thing are you gonna throw them in public schools again or are we gonna homeschool and you know that's going to take up one of our times significantly and so that that's going to take out of work so you got to have something going on if you're going to justify that that kind of child rearing so.
[1:43:07] Is your theory your theory is something like that you uh you become perfect and then you are left.
[1:43:15] Yes okay.
[1:43:18] And what do you think of that theory.
[1:43:21] It's unhealthy but i don't feel like i experience things that that contradict it.
[1:43:33] Okay that's i don't feel like i experience things.
[1:43:35] That contradict it i don't i don't i don't feel like i experience love without being without without giving initially like i have to give and do a lot of stuff and then i'll be loved okay.
[1:43:50] And is that sort of along the lines of with regards to your father that uh he loves you less if you don't graduate college.
[1:44:00] Yes and yes, And from my early existence that I have to perform really well, and I have to develop on my own really well in order to become successful. And that's the mode of not just love, because my father did show affection to me, showed that he cared about me, and pampered me a little bit with the vacations and the music camp and blah, blah, blah. But um the expectation that the the means of social approval was from being successful academically being successful vocationally and having a clear track and being financially successful um and so these were like the dopamine so-called my relationship with authority in general this was my dopamine was um oh he's the intelligent high-powered person and whenever he succeeds uh we'll show approval to him and we'll show that we're satisfied with him okay.
[1:45:11] So your value to your father is what that you provided ego gratification status bragging rights something else.
[1:45:21] Something like that like wow would you look at my son he's so talented or wow would you look at my son um he's so well off he's so he's so intelligent he's so this that and the other, were um parents i'm about to say a generalization that you might disagree with it's like well i don't i don't approve that but parents they like to brag about their kids they like to brag and say that they are successful and that this reflects on themselves well my dad's public image is is important it's an important part of his reputation as a medical doctor because he interacts with a lot of human beings he interacts with a lot of people and so a lot of people are familiar with him so um usually you wouldn't think of a private professional being a public figure in some way but i guess it it kind of exceeds a little bit here um in that he is a figure in the community so bragging bragging is magnified even more all.
[1:46:30] Right and do you feel that that's always been the case with him.
[1:46:34] Yes i was i was talented on the instrument early on and, And the fact that I spent so much time at public school, instead of with him, you know, he'd kind of just hear the response. He'd kind of hear the radio echo back of, hey, he's doing really well. He's really successful. He's really popular and everything. We're giving you the thumbs up so that you can brag and you can be satisfied and everything. So the feedback would come from everybody else saying, hey, your son's doing great.
[1:47:14] Now how much sympathy does he have over the whole covet situation.
[1:47:19] Uh he did have significant sympathy there and so it's not like it's not like he completely, um lashed out or he was completely disappointed in me um but he so so yeah so it was kind of it it muted his dissatisfaction with me i'll say that and but but he still really wanted me to continue to go to school and he's one of those boomers i'm not using it as an epithet he's one of those boomers with the mentality that college is the only means of of high value success of high value professional success that's the only mode in which it's expressed, and so i don't have a view outside of that so the fact that i dropped out makes me feel lost in a sense right okay, like sorry i might interject a little bit but yeah no i'm.
[1:48:18] Not an interjection you're the purpose of the.
[1:48:20] Call i know but it's just like how did you end up so you so you left theater school and and you did you did the master's in philosophy history of philosophy it was a a.
[1:48:33] A master's in history but my um my thesis was in the history of philosophy.
[1:48:38] Right okay i see sorry um um but then you talk about becoming a software engineer at a certain point in time in the late 90s well.
[1:48:48] Not an engineer i mean uh but i coded i was coding since i was like 11 or 12 years old in my sort of early to mid-teens i was obsessed with coding and i ended up doing that in the business world.
[1:48:59] I see so that that was your autodidactic kind of thing right right okay, i gotta learn to code just maybe.
[1:49:13] Not when ai is.
[1:49:13] Coming in oh yeah no we're we're all out we're all out right is that true um.
[1:49:19] Yeah i just hope they uh they let me on the uh ai farm slave ai slave farm okay.
[1:49:26] Right so your eventual i mean i mean this became your bread and butter to do right as a publicist of sorts. But at that point in time, it was something that you learned autodidactically that eventually became your main career thing for a while. And this was before you got married, right?
[1:49:50] Yeah.
[1:49:51] Okay. I find that interesting. And I have some moderate optimism about the finance route because you can get the certifications for it, The CFA, the Series 65, Series 3, etc. You can get those just as an individual certification instead of going through the whole bureaucracy of college again. So I think that's something worth looking into for my case. I also joined this kind of... I actually spent a bit of money to enter into it.
[1:50:28] This uh this kind of financial um i wouldn't say country club but kind of this this restricted community of financial professionals and everything and they're very interested in helping people set up funds of kinds either their real estate funds or their hedge funds or stuff like that i entered into this group and everything so i might receive some professional development from them so the finance route there's some glimmer of light that i'm looking at there but, I'll have to keep pushing and keep seeing what I'm capable of in that area.
[1:51:09] Okay. All right. So, I think I have enough, and I appreciate all of the background information. I can start putting some adjectives in if that works for you.
[1:51:23] Yeah, please.
[1:51:24] All right. Well, sorry, let me ask one more question. What is your level of religiosity? And I say this without prejudice, like too much, too little or whatever, but compared to when you were very much obsessing about sin, where's your level of religiosity at the moment?
[1:51:43] So if that was a nine, I'll say I'm at a seven.
[1:51:47] Okay. And how's that working for you?
[1:51:51] It's working fine um it's not it's not too strenuous on me psychologically or anything like where there's an obsession or anything but it is a big um burden in that i take it seriously even though sometimes i don't fully experience the the meaning that's derived from it um, you know because you don't always have a quote-unquote religious experience but it's doing fine it's a it's a big structural pillar in my existence right now it's like so it's like if i wake up and it's like what am i doing with my life should i even live at least i go to mass, and i go and show up there and i have a meaningful physical experience religiously so it's been a structural pillar that's helped keep me from going off the cliff and yeah i would say even though there's difficulties and it's like it you know even if i'm devout it's hard to follow the rules sometimes and it's it's hard to accept sometimes as my reality of how i have to live but in general i think that it's really gonna be for the better and it's gonna help secure my life all.
[1:53:08] Righty righty ready uh all right so you got to talk to girls.
[1:53:15] Like yeah this.
[1:53:16] This i'm gonna wait till things are perfect um nope no no the perfect is the enemy of the good right.
[1:53:22] Yes so.
[1:53:25] Let me let me make that case for you briefly just so you sort of understand from a philosophical standpoint where where i'm coming from so the problem is let's say you wait, I don't know, what's your guess as to how long it's going to take for you to get, some sort of financial stability?
[1:53:49] Three years.
[1:53:50] Okay. So three years. So then you're 26, 27, right?
[1:53:57] That's right.
[1:53:58] So you're 26, 27, which means you are now, given that most good guys will start talking to girls around 15 or 16, so you're like well north of a decade behind.
[1:54:10] Exactly.
[1:54:11] So you will have gained, let's say you'll have gained an advantage, The advantage being, of course, that you have financial stability, right? Or some sort of path that way, right? So, yay, that's a plus. But the minus, of course, is that you have years less experience talking to girls. Does that make sense?
[1:54:37] It makes a lot of sense. Yeah i i literally, the only girls i talk to are the grannies at church.
[1:54:48] Well okay but don't start throwing obstacles the moment we're starting to work on solutions right just just sit with this is a possibility right yes okay so you gotta you just gotta talk to girls now you're gonna say ah yes about what girls will want me at the moment, fundamentally, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Because what matters is that you gain experience talking to girls.
[1:55:22] You're right. You're right.
[1:55:24] Right?
[1:55:24] I have so little experience with that.
[1:55:26] You have no experience talking to girls except almost passing out when you wanted to take the girl to the grocery store.
[1:55:34] I'm sorry. It sounds funny when you say it.
[1:55:36] Well, I mean, it's not that unusual. What was it? Who was it? One of the founding fathers. It could have been Jefferson.
[1:55:43] Had to take to bed with a migraine for three days after he was awkward in front of a girl. So, yeah, don't feel bad about that. That happens. That happens. So, yeah, but that's a thing. So, you just got to talk to girls. It's sort of like saying, I'm only going to take a job once I can be a manager. It's like, no, no, you've got to work your way up to that. And in order to get to the woman who could be the great woman for you to be with, you've got to talk to some other women first. Odds are, right?
[1:56:24] Right. It's a numbers game, too.
[1:56:28] It is a numbers game, and it is an experience game. I mean, let's say you wait for another couple of years until you have more financial stability. Well, then what happens? Well then what happens is you're awkward as hell around your dream girl and you don't get her anyway right right because you're gonna like if you meet your dream girl or your dream woman i guess in a couple of years then the problem is that you can't both be equally socially awkward or you'll never talk to each other at all, right?
[1:57:07] Right, right.
[1:57:08] So you're going to need someone, who is, more, comfortable socially than you are, right?
[1:57:23] Yeah.
[1:57:24] But if she's more comfortable than you socially, why is she going to put up with your stuttering ass? Am I wrong?
[1:57:35] She's got to have a crush or something. She's got to have an infatuation.
[1:57:39] Okay, but I'm just saying that it's a challenge, right?
[1:57:44] It is a challenge.
[1:57:45] So you just have to become more socially comfortable talking to women. And there's just no way to do it except by doing it.
[1:58:01] Yeah, and I haven't looked around enough for young adult events within the church and everything. I have to make an effort to intentionally go to those and just start, you know, meeting a lot of new people. and, and yeah maybe I'm expecting, not maybe it's obvious I'm expecting too much to say oh I only want to interact with people that I'm really close to and have a really strong bond with, when you have to start by interacting with a lot of people as acquaintances, and um and just finding people so.
[1:58:48] When you say that you only want to interact with people you are already close to have a strong bond with that's not true at all do you know why.
[1:58:57] Why because.
[1:58:59] You want to get married.
[1:59:00] Exactly no as in as in only talk to people that i want to form a strong bond with and if i'm not close to them if i'm not finding myself close to them then i'll just move on to the next person. No, I think I need to interact with a lot of people and form a larger social space.
[1:59:16] Is there someone in your social group that you want to marry?
[1:59:20] No.
[1:59:21] Then you're going to have to go outside, right?
[1:59:23] Yeah.
[1:59:24] Right. So you're just going to have to get used to talking to people. Like there's just no way around it.
[1:59:32] You're right. You're right.
[1:59:35] And that's just a, it doesn't get like i remember when i went um i went parachuting uh when i was a teenager, and jumping out of the plane uh i remember that the guy was yelling in my ear because i was hesitating because it's not the most intuitive thing to do to jump out of a plane right so i was hesitating and the instructor said it doesn't get easier the longer you wait, and i just went out, because he's right so the longer you wait the worse you get okay if that makes sense, so you're just going to have to find a way to do it and it's going to be awkward it's going to be horrible right it's going to be embarrassing it's going to be cringy and you're going to go home and you're going to grind your face into a pillow at the embarrassment of what you've done. And there's no other option, if that makes sense.
[2:00:47] Okay. Okay.
[2:00:50] And whether that is joining youth groups, whether that's joining dance classes, whether that's taking pottery classes, whether that's doing scavenger hunts with people in the city, I don't know. I have no idea, right? I mean, I've not been on the dating market for decades, So I don't know what the story is in terms of how this plays or how this goes, but it's something. And right now it does nothing, right?
[2:01:20] Right yeah so i have to i have to i know you said it already but i'm emphasizing it you're right i have to get over the lump of oh i'm not in a place right now where where i count or i'm valid so to speak so i won't interact with anybody i have to just get over that and interact with people even though i'm not in that financially stable career place right now um there's a lot of stories that i know of of men that started out rough but found their footing later after they were with their ladies for a considerable amount of time and um there's a couple high profile examples but i just know that that's a thing and i kind of put that in the back of my head for a while as if it doesn't exist but it does happen it does happen sorry.
[2:02:15] What do you mean what happens i got a.
[2:02:17] Little lost there as in as in the guy isn't financially stable or that he doesn't have a clear career set out in front of him when the girl likes him and accepts him anyway and he finds his footing afterwards after he meets her i.
[2:02:34] Mean it's funny because it's a very non-religious view.
[2:02:40] Yeah um but the examples that i know of this are of religious figures of religious people of guys that are religious it's kind of weird, all right like they start out poor they're poor.
[2:02:59] Right well and of course the longer you wait also the worse it gets because it's.
[2:03:05] One thing.
[2:03:05] To say i'm 23 and broke it's another thing to say you know i'm even older and still don't have a lot of money right, So, again, there's just no substitute for doing it now. Oh, did we lose each other?
[2:03:23] It looks like you buffered out.
[2:03:25] Okay, I'm buffered back in. Yeah, so I think I've made that case. So, you just have to find a way to talk to girls. There's no way around it. That's number one. Number two, is it your belief or your perception, that your problems would have been solved if you had stayed or found a way to stay in your violin?
[2:03:57] Fundamentally, no. I think in general, I was just anxious about the career path itself. I don't know if I would have been able to be a violinist. And I don't know if I would have, well I'm hesitating to say I don't know if I would have found my person to be married to if I was on that route, because you're around a lot of young girls still then but I do still think there would have been a problem with me personally and, converting was the transition point in my life that required me to change my character.
[2:04:53] Right, okay.
[2:04:55] I used to be in this, where I wouldn't have, i'm not really there i'm sorry you just kind of change in terms, yeah so after converting um there's this i i would not have probably been on a long conversation like this with someone before i wouldn't have had that confidence so even with the conversion it was a lifestyle change and the behavioral change where i masculinized a bit over time it's taken time i'm not fully there but that it did masculinize me a bit where i'm a bit more confident with people and i'm willing to uh approach more than not at all um when before it would have just been a non a non-sequitur right.
[2:05:52] Okay all right so, So, when you, did you pray, I can't remember where you were in your religiosity when you left the conservatory or when you left the musical education, did you pray at the time or after about the wisdom of that decision?
[2:06:16] No, this is when I was converting.
[2:06:18] Okay. Have you prayed since about the wisdom of that decision?
[2:06:23] No.
[2:06:25] What? What are you talking about? It's one of the most consequential decisions of your life. You're religious, and I'm sorry if I'm missing something obvious here. Why on earth wouldn't you have prayed about that?
[2:06:43] Because I viewed it as something that already happened that I had to accept regardless of it. And that thinking back to it as if whether it was a good decision or not would be hindsight thinking that I couldn't change.
[2:07:00] Hindsight thinking. Okay. God didn't pop into existence because you converted, right?
[2:07:10] That's correct.
[2:07:11] So God would have been present over your shoulder, in your heart, in your soul, in your mind, when you were leaving the conservatory.
[2:07:21] That's right. so what.
[2:07:26] Is your sense of what god's thoughts are regarding you leaving the conservatory.
[2:07:33] Um to be honest i felt like he would have been um indifferent to it not that making vain decisions is good or anything but that sorry.
[2:07:47] Making vain decisions what do you mean.
[2:07:48] As in decisions that are imprudent that aren't well thought out that aren't wise um that making a big decision like that prematurely or unwisely um sorry not that not that he didn't care at all but that he would find some other purpose for my life or some other vocation and that i could still fill will fulfill his general will for my life to just follow his rules and to obey him generally.
[2:08:23] I strenuously disagree with every single syllable you just said. It doesn't mean I'm right. I'm just telling you, I strenuously, strenuously disagree with everything you just said. You disliked the materialist, secular, leftist infestation in the arts. Do I have that somewhat right?
[2:08:45] Correct.
[2:08:47] Right. So you fled a secular, anti-Christian environment.
[2:08:58] Yes.
[2:08:59] Are you trying to tell me that God is indifferent to that decision?
[2:09:03] Yes.
[2:09:07] I'm real happy to be schooled and corrected on all of this. I don't see it.
[2:09:14] No, I didn't think about it that way.
[2:09:18] Because you didn't pray. I mean, it's one of the most troubling decisions of your life, right? If not the most troubling decision or troubled decision of your life, right?
[2:09:29] It was. It was. Yes.
[2:09:31] Okay. And you said it was 10% conservative, and in terms of fundamentalist Christian, what percent?
[2:09:48] 5%, 3%.
[2:09:49] Right.
[2:09:58] So, would that have been the place for you to explore your faith?
[2:10:11] Well, it's just that, I wasn't fully formed in the faith yet and, it's kind of a cop-out to say but that it was a bit premature and.
[2:10:31] Well, you've hit Fogland officially. Okay. It was premature, you say, right?
[2:10:44] Yeah, I wasn't fully converted yet.
[2:10:47] No, I get that. I get that. But, it would have been far less likely for you to become converted if you had stayed in that environment.
[2:11:04] That's something that I think is correct I don't think I would have fully converted to the Catholic faith if I didn't leave there, that's something that I do actually believe I don't think I would have become Catholic fully, um and especially if i ended up in a relationship with one of those girls, um even even if they were nice and everything they probably wouldn't have been catholic and i probably wouldn't have fully entered the church.
[2:11:39] And your religious faith is foundational to your experience of the world right.
[2:11:46] Right it was a it was a change in reality itself for me yeah which is why which is why it did kind of it didn't sting but it you did kind of mark me a little bit when you said you know god didn't appear when you converted right because he didn't but there is a certain sense of that, in that transformation as if that point in my life was, more important even though he had already been existing and working in my life in some way behind the scenes right.
[2:12:21] Okay so why do you do it so alone why do you do life so alone.
[2:12:34] Because from early on um i mean it's like if i was listening to your call in let's say and i was, there was this one time with the caretaker and my older sister they're like x you know you have your ears plugged in with in on on your phone all the time but you know what are you listening to and i play a little bit of what you're saying and then you say something controversial that's anti-feminist or whatever and they immediately blurt out and freak out yeah um this is an exaggerated example i mean this is an exceptional example but it's just in general feeling like my what's going on inside me is too controversial or too radical or too socially, um awkward to safely express to other people like what's going on in my inner life is too is too far away from how other people view the world or how other people express themselves.
[2:13:35] Okay so and that has a lot to do with your religion right with.
[2:13:39] Religion yes okay.
[2:13:41] So why don't you pray more about these things wouldn't that give you less of a sense of isolation.
[2:13:51] Yes but real prayer is difficult I do pray I prayed frequently but, sometimes I feel the darkness of it as if he's not there.
[2:14:10] Well, when it comes to prayer, there is the emotional supplication experience, and then there's the rational argument. Now, you and I did not put our heads together in prayer when it came to figuring out whether God wanted you to stay in the godless conservatory, right? What we did was we just looked at it rationally, right?
[2:14:32] That's right.
[2:14:34] Right. So why don't you have access to either if one isn't working right if for some reason you're not connecting with regards to prayer that way, why do you not have the okay let's just look at this logically would God want me to stay in, a godless environment or an environment that would have interfered with my pursuit of faith.
[2:15:04] You're right i don't um even though i viewed myself as a reasonable as a intellectually rational person um sometimes i made decisions that i don't fully reason through and think practically and normally um i had an excessively mystical view of of him in that aspect of my life and assumed not directly but implicitly, that you know that's on one side and and the logical rational stuff is on the other side.
[2:15:45] Okay so hang on so so then you have a theology that isolates, right and as you say the isolation given how active your mind is the isolation might produce some of these delusions exactly exactly okay so why do you isolate.
[2:16:08] Um because i'm afraid of not being accepted.
[2:16:11] But that's preemptive right you isolate because you're afraid of not being accepted which means you're never accepted so exactly if if what we do regarding our worst fears confirms our worst fears we're not exactly fixing the problem right yeah, so why, why do you isolate, why are you so solitary.
[2:16:45] Hmm, it's a difficult question horse being afraid of not being accepted that is the that's a cyclical problem But also...
[2:17:02] But I mean, you understand that that's selfish, right?
[2:17:06] Yeah.
[2:17:06] No, I don't know that you do. That was a bit too quick. But tell me what maybe you did. What do you think I mean?
[2:17:13] It was too quick and it was kind of just a vague yes.
[2:17:18] Okay. So what I mean by that is when you self-isolate out of fear of rejection, you are by definition rejecting everyone else.
[2:17:27] Right. Right.
[2:17:28] And if being rejected is so bad, why are you rejecting everyone else?
[2:17:34] Exactly. Probably because of an inner secret arrogance that...
[2:17:43] Well, no, let's not go straight to your sin thing.
[2:17:49] Exactly. Sorry.
[2:17:50] So it's not, I mean, it's easy from the outside, right? So I apologize if this sounds blindingly obvious. But the reason that you isolate is that's what you're used to. You were born very late in the family your older sisters were mostly gone your father worked all the time and you were you were isolated as a child, right that's just i don't know about all this other stuff it's just kind of what you're used to it's like some big psychological reason as to why you speak english it's like well that's just what you were raised with right, yeah and unfortunately you're and this is true for a lot of late-born children, you know the the parents put their efforts into the older kids and there's just not for whatever reason maybe a choice maybe corruption there's just not much left over for the late-born kids, right i.
[2:18:53] Didn't feel that i i wasn't directly instructed by them a lot.
[2:18:57] Yeah you didn't you weren't parented really, and then you know for a year year and a half you had to wash your mother's infected feet and you couldn't really i mean that's just a horrifying situation to be in i mean that's not how a teenager should be spending his time.
[2:19:16] Yeah at that by then i lost a sense of of um natural fun.
[2:19:22] Sure and.
[2:19:23] Just socializing with people.
[2:19:24] And then you have the mentally handicapped brother who's like a toddler, so that's not available to you, right? That's not a relationship that's available to you. So who did you relate to? In particular in your teens, which is where the, you know, socializing relationship stuff is really supposed to be going.
[2:19:47] I spent it on the internet.
[2:19:48] Right. Which is solitary and abstract.
[2:19:54] And abstract, very abstract.
[2:19:57] Right. So we can come up with all these theories about why you isolate, but the simplest explanation is that's how you were raised. Or rather, that's how you weren't raised, but that's what you were abandoned to as a child.
[2:20:20] Yeah, no, that's what happened. That's what happened. And most of my childhood was very online. I guess I still don't think about it as deeply as might be worth, because that is different. That's completely different than the existence you had from your perspective, before the internet existed even, is that you were outside with people. And I was not an outside person. I was an inside person. So it just really radically is not the same.
[2:21:00] Right. So you have reasonable criticisms of your family, which is that they kind of abandoned you to the computer and your room rather than parent you and get you out in the world.
[2:21:15] Yes.
[2:21:17] And that's caused, I think, to some degree, your social skills to atrophy. So you just have to develop muscles that were not developed in the natural course of life and socializing. And then, of course, you went to study violin in the hopes that you would gain a social group. But then you felt, you know, very different from your social group. And then COVID hit and you were back to the room. And you had to leave. And then you had a job. You had a job where you were entering these insurance claims and so on. Solitary, right?
[2:22:11] Yes. Yes.
[2:22:12] Right. So sorry you were saying something earlier no.
[2:22:21] It's just it just felt like when you said it like that it feels like boom boom boom boom just when i'm getting up i get i get hit again in the face.
[2:22:29] Yeah yeah for sure for sure so i think saying well i isolate because i'm afraid of rejection and I isolate because I don't feel like I'm adding value. Those are all explanations after the fact. You isolate because that's what you're used to, and that's what you were raised with. And sanity is to a large degree social, right? We can talk ourselves into and out of just about anything. But sanity is social. We need other people, which is why when you isolate, you tend to, as you say, have these sort of delusions of grandeur of being the grand mufti or Napoleon. I don't know. I'm sort of making fun, but the stuff that you were talking about before, right?
[2:23:18] Yeah. Yeah.
[2:23:20] Because you don't get that sort of regular bounce back and feedback, right?
[2:23:28] That's exactly, I think, how it happens.
[2:23:30] Right. You know uh ideas can be these weird growths in our head and we need other people to sand them down sometimes to keep us um grounded so to speak.
[2:23:43] And and and that social feedback was, obstructed with my family they when this stuff started happening they wouldn't, directly interact with me sorry which oh the delusions yeah the delusions or issues me having issues like oh what's going on with him they wouldn't interact with me they would interact with other people about me and they do these telephone games with me where it's like i only say i only emit one bit of communication and then they run with it and say i'm worried about him let's talk about him i'm worried about him let's talk about him with someone else and never directly interacting with me it was a very isolating experience there, and i understand that i have personal issues and um i'm not perfect and i've done things wrong and i've done things that were cause for concern for other people but this didn't really help the isolation and it kind of wounded me a bit more sure.
[2:24:42] Well your family is bad at connection i think.
[2:24:47] Yeah they know they have issues they're good at.
[2:24:49] Avoidance they're good at judgment and you know They've had some challenges for sure, right? Your mother and your brother and so on, right? But your family is not very good at directness and connection and, you know, the sort of intertwining vines of rational thought that produce, you know, healthy levels of sanity in the human mind.
[2:25:10] I agree with this.
[2:25:14] So I think that if you, in a sense, cripple yourself with these explanations about how, oh, I don't feel like I add value and I'm afraid of rejection and it's like, eh, yeah, okay. But it's, to me, missing the very central issue, which is that, that's just what you're used to. This is how you grew up. This is your life. Right, so I think recognizing that dealing with that, pain right there's a lot of isolation there which I really sympathize with but I think I think dealing with that is pretty key, to getting to where you want to get to in life it's not That you have this mysterious fear of rejection or, you know, just irrationally wandering thoughts in and of themselves. It's that you grew up with profound isolation.
[2:26:23] Yeah. And I can't, I can't, I can't feed this habit anymore. It's not, it's not healthy.
[2:26:29] That's why I don't want you waiting another couple of years, right? You're just going to have to get out there and say, I'm loud and proud and socially awkward. And, you know, there's nothing wrong with telling people, yeah, I grew up pretty isolated, so I've got some social awkwardness. But I'm also really smart, and I think on things deeply, and I know a lot about religion and philosophy, and I have a lot of value to add. It just may be a bit, you know, a bit squeaky or awkward at times. But, and that will, that will sand down over time, right? I mean, when you first picked up the violin, it wasn't like you were your hoodie menu in, right? I mean, so it, it's practice makes perfect, right?
[2:27:10] And, and you just, but you got to stop avoiding the practice.
[2:27:19] Okay. Okay.
[2:27:21] Does that make sense?
[2:27:22] Yes, it makes a lot of sense.
[2:27:24] So you just got to go talk to girls, get yourself into social situations, and just recognize that what you lack is experience. It's not some weird pathology where you're just terrified of rejection for no particular reason, or I just don't add value. Or like it's not in my view obviously it's just an amateur opinion but it's not some weird pathology, you know like if if i remember when i first picked up the violin it was not a pretty sound right but i didn't sit there and say well i have some weird resistance to producing good sounds on a violin i don't have a weird resistance to producing good sounds on a violin i just don't know how to play violin yet. So I don't know about all of these pathologies about your socialization or social skills or insecurities or whatever. It's just you weren't taught this as a kid, so you have to learn it as an adult, and that's going to be awkward, but it's not, I don't know about the pathology and all of that, but it seems to be it's just a lack of experience. I mean, I didn't grow up speaking Japanese, so if I start to learn Japanese, it's going to be awkward as hell. But it's not because I have some weird pathology about Japanese. I just don't know it yet. Does that make sense?
[2:28:41] Yeah, it makes sense. It makes a lot of sense.
[2:28:44] Okay, good, good. All right. Well, I know we chatted for a good old time. Is that enough value for you at the moment?
[2:28:50] Yes, and I think that we did go through a lot of things and it was very helpful. Okay.
[2:28:55] Well, that's why I'm like two hours of information gathering. Sometimes it's important to figure out what's going on. So, listen, will you keep me posted about how it's going?
[2:29:03] Yes, yes, I really appreciate it.
[2:29:05] All right. Well, thanks, man. Have a great afternoon and I really appreciate your call today.
[2:29:10] All right. Bye.
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