Philosopher Stefan Molyneux engages in a detailed analysis of a recent debate he had with Malcolm Collins regarding topics of peaceful parenting, discipline, and the broader implications of such beliefs on society. Right from the start, Stefan opens the conversation by reflecting on the unexpected turn the debate took, noting how discussions about family and coercion in personal relationships often provide profound insights into how we view societal structures. He invites listeners to share their thoughts—particularly their criticisms—indicating his commitment to growth and understanding in his philosophical journey.
As James joins the discussion, he vocalizes how he found Malcolm to be visibly agitated during the debate, particularly when the conversation veered into personal and sensitive territory. Stefan comments on the irony of a parenting philosophy that employs violence and how it intertwines with their political ideologies. He observes that if one accepts violence in familial settings, it's a short leap to condoning it in society at large. This correlation leads them to consider the foundational idea of forgiveness— how Malcolm could pit his experiences against those of his children, displaying a double standard rooted in his own upbringing.
The discussion delves into the notion that fear might dictate how parents discipline their children, often using emotions tied to childhood trauma as justification. They consider the implications of this for children raised in environments where physical punishment is normalized. Both Stefan and James grapple with the idea that the trauma of parenthood is cyclical, where unresolved issues from one generation bleed into the next. Through Malcolm's admission of his experiences, they explore how such cycles can evolve into distorted moral frameworks, complicating the way future generations are raised.
As they continue, they recognize how the respondent's arguments often fell into the realm of what they term "straw manning." Stefan elaborates on how engaging with someone who misunderstands or ignores the core essence of your argument can make productive discourse incredibly challenging. The two discuss the importance of moral consistency, noting how site-specific parenting approaches contradict broader principles of morality. They question how one could advocate for robust moral philosophies while simultaneously upholding authoritarian parenting structures.
Reflecting on Malcolm's views and parenting practices, they consider the implications of "culture" as a justification for physical discipline. Stefan touches on outrageously incisive ideas; namely, the problems with a culture that endorses aggressive practices as a survival mechanism. He poignantly contemplates the need for more compassionate and hands-on approaches to parenting, as well as how societal values dictate the acceptable norms of interaction. Further, he underscores that moral reasoning applicable to parenting should be coherent and universal to ensure consistency across societal interactions.
The episode culminates in discussions about societal evolution versus intuitive survival strategies. Stefan emphasizes that while some argue change is inherently threatening to cultural continuance, nurturing kindness and virtuous living is fundamentally more beneficial for future generations. He asserts that the cycle of aggression only leads to further violence unless treated with awareness and philosophy that embraces peaceful and constructive resolutions.
Through this in-depth exploration of morality, philosophy, and parenting, this episode does not merely touch on an ideological debate but rather challenges listeners to reconsider the deeper implications of their beliefs on individual and societal levels. Ending on a note of advocacy for nurturing virtuous and meaningful relationships, Stefan invites listeners to access additional resources on parenting and philosophy through his platforms, reinforcing the show's mission to promote understanding and dialogue around complex societal issues.
0:01 - Post-Debate Review
0:53 - Debate Reflections
1:12 - Family Dynamics Explored
4:13 - Parenting Styles Under Scrutiny
7:31 - The Role of Violence in Parenting
13:59 - Moral Dilemmas in Parenting
17:27 - The Impact of Culture on Parenting
21:35 - Understanding Moral Responsibility
27:30 - Audience Reactions
29:47 - Research and Alternatives
35:54 - The Complexity of Parenting
37:52 - Confronting Parenting Myths
41:50 - Preparing Kids for Adulthood
45:20 - Final Thoughts and Reflections
[0:00] Yeah, I guess it makes sense. Put the mic on. Sorry about that. Yes, I am just doing a little bit of a post-debate review analysis on iHypocrite channel. I debated with Malcolm about peaceful parenting and spanking, and I suppose it turned into anarcho-capitalism. So if you could let me know what you think, strengths and weaknesses, mostly the weaknesses would be the most helpful to get a hold of. I would love to hear what it is. that you have to say. And James, I was going to say, if you wanted to jump up front here and let me know what you think, can you chime in? And, yeah, I'd love to sort of hear what you have to say. Yeah, it was an interesting debate. It never quite goes the way that you think
[0:52] it's going to go as a whole. There we go. All right, James, from the outside, what were your thoughts?
[0:59] Hey, so, yeah, I thought that was really interesting. And I'm not sure if I have too much in the way of weaknesses,
[1:07] but, man, you really got him hysterical at one point. It was just, I mean, not like you got him, but like he, he, he, he got really unhinged at one point. That was just like,
[1:20] Well, I mean, that's around, uh, the family stuff, right?
[1:24] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's, that's where all the, um, that's where the whole thing, like this, uh, not, well, I thought it was really good. Was it, you know, not judging, sorry, forgiving his parents, but not forgiving his kids. And, you know, he just couldn't keep his composure, which was, yeah, like you said, all of our own family stuff. Yeah.
[1:44] Yeah. And of course, the idea is that if you accept violence within the family, you can't conceive of not needing violence in society as a whole. And I think that one certainly seemed to, like, it's really fascinating to see the theories, at least for me, sort of manifest in that way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so that's exactly what you would expect from that. And so see, it's sort of come to life in that kind of way that, well, you want to use violence in the home and look at that. You then need also violence in the... In society as a whole. And you can't even conceive of how your individual family could run in the absence of coercion. And you can't imagine how society could run in the absence of coercion. And yeah, just seeing how that sort of plays out is pretty interesting. I didn't understand some of his, like, there was a lot of straw manning.
[2:44] And it's fascinating to see that happen in real time because normally there's you know in twitter and all of that there's you sort of time delayed and all of that but you know it seems like or you appear to be or like you could see this this straw manning just kicking in yeah right away and this lack of listening is so it makes debate virtually impossible when people just can make up whatever they want from uh, from what you're saying and how can you uh how could you respond to that i don't know other than pointing out that it's happening.
[3:19] Yeah, yeah, I'm not sure. I mean, I guess if there was any, I don't know how to say other than you mentioning that. If there's a weakness, then you're finding a way to address that. But again, I don't have any particular suggestions like the other thing you said, like to point it out, because how do you get someone to respond to you when they're not responding to you? I'm not really sure.
[3:43] Yeah, I mean, I certainly didn't say that he seems like a pretty good dad. So he was interviewed by The Guardian. I guess you know some of this stuff. He was interviewed by The Guardian, and his two-year-old son was in the restaurant where he was being interviewed, and his son was, I think, rocking on his chair or something, and he turned and smacked his son across the face, and he said, loud enough that it could be heard on the recording. It's like, well, recorders are pretty sensitive, so I don't know how much that means, but...
[4:13] Is it dangerous? You know, is it necessarily wise to bring your children to an interview with a reporter?
[4:22] Yeah, well, I mean, I put that into the research as well. And, I mean, I saw, like, I saw the stuff about his upbringing and just sort of this really, really brutal kind of, like, you know, basically imprisoned by the state, essentially. Um and uh anyway in the course of that article uh i did have a thought i didn't put this into research itself but i had the thought later it's like yeah i mean the reporter in writing the story was kind of like a a fainting violet about it you know so it seems i guess it's illegal in pennsylvania or something like that but it's like i don't think she would have said the same thing if it was like a brown muslim that did it you know seriously
[5:01] Oh no no yeah of course i get that Yeah.
[5:04] That makes sense.
[5:05] And were you following any of the comments? Because I was just in there. I think it was in StreamYard, so I didn't get to see any of the comments that were kicking around. But it was, of course, nice to see a lot of people from New Hampshire there. Not too shocking or too surprising.
[5:20] Yeah, the New Hampshire comments were funny. So there was a good number of people who, like in a lot of these things, there's people that aren't going to be convinced. But I didn't track to see if anyone became convinced in the, through the course of the debate, because I didn't really, you know, there's a lot of comments going past. Um, but you know, there were people that are definitely like, you know, well, libertarian boomer, which you've seen before, I'm sure, you know, it's like, you know, it's like they're, they're, they're not interested in the NAP or anything like that. Um, and some people were saying we got really off track when talking about the free society stuff. And I was trying to remember to track back how that got into that part of the conversation. And I think you had said something about this sort of cycle. Aren't you tired of this cycle?
[6:04] Yeah.
[6:05] But was there something before that?
[6:06] 250 years? Because he's like, well, you know, at the beginning of societies, they're harsher on their kids. And it's like, yeah. And then later in their societies, they neglect their kids, which makes the kids neurotic. And like, aren't you tired of this cycle that no civilization could last more than 250 years before it collapses because of violations of the non-aggression principle? How about we try something else, you know?
[6:26] Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know what? And actually, because I was, because I started to see the comments and started people sort of doing that little sort of sniping, you know, not this... sniping stuff. it's like, oh, she's off track. But no, it's not at all because Malcolm is making his justifications for hitting his kids on this basis.
[6:47] Yeah, he's Roman from my novel, right? I mean, obviously, but slightly more fey glasses. But yeah, he's Roman from my novel, which is, well, the world is tough, so you gotta be rough on your kids. And it's like, well, no, the world is rough because you're rough on your kids. Right it's this end of cycle right and this idea that you know well i you know this is a lot of growing criminality in the world so i got to teach my kids how to fight it's like go tell that to Daniel Penny right uh that's no that's not that's not going to be a thing that they're going to be able to do they're just trying to avoid that kind of stuff because there's no good outcome from that kind of stuff because the state is generally siding with the criminals so yeah yeah
[7:29] so i found that, I mean, listen, good for him for having a bunch of kids. And again, he seems like a good dad in many ways, but oof, this thing with the parents is, I mean, I can't conceive of hating the woman I had a bunch of kids with so much that I'd rather my kid go to government child jail than...
[7:53] Do better and yeah because he's like well but you know they grow up in the 60s and 70s like hello so did i it's not not a right so this determinism is really interesting that his parents aren't to blame because everything's deterministic but his kids need to be punished for bad behavior or wrong behavior or whatever i i couldn't quite figure out what it was a real slippery gassy kind of goofy thing that was going on right at the center there because, like, was he just hitting his kids because they were doing stuff that was dangerous or was he hitting his kids because they were doing stuff that was wrong or, like, I couldn't quite figure it out because it's not moral instruction. Is he just training it like you train a dog? Sorry, go ahead.
[8:35] No, no, that's totally fine. When I was looking through this, you know, sort of digging, oh, by the way, did you get a chance to look through the research and was that good stuff?
[8:45] Oh, it was great, yeah, thank you. I really appreciate it. Good stuff.
[8:47] Good good um so i didn't see why i mean other than you know the obvious sort of it's obvious that's like emotional sort of drivers for this you know forgiving his parents and then inflicting on his kids um i don't know what was between him and his wife that said well we should start hitting our kids because they gave an example of having been... been on a safari and watching how tigers were sort of
[9:13] Lions!
[9:13] uh lions was it lions? lions or tigers, yeah these big cats essentially um giving immediate quote-unquote feedback and he makes this evolutionary case yeah which is it's not because i i understand from our perspective like well i mean you're making you see you're telling these kids to make different choices so that's all about free will but everything's deterministic but there's a kind of deterministic through line if you're like well this is the evolutionary path
[9:41] right
[9:42] so it it's not it obviously there's a contradiction in there because it's like well you gotta you gotta hit your kids because otherwise you know they're just gonna well no that's that's quite it um but it's like it's like there's this you know this this is how things should be but this is how we got here but you may
[9:59] sorry, hang on i i you lost me here what do you mean things what should be i get the evolutionary thing but what's the should be.
[10:04] Oh um i don't know if i i don't know if i can make the case for it i think that's what he's trying to say which is like we are no actually you know i don't know you know i'll take i'll take i'll take a uh i'll just say i'll just confess ignorance on that because i don't know enough about what he talks about the sort of things he talks about to say what he is trying to do except for to find a way to bring his like create create a culture that his kids will pass on um but yeah just just sort like this is the way things have been, but not like, like there's a big old leap to should be. And I don't know how to bridge that. So yeah.
[10:45] And what's the should be, do you think that he was working with?
[10:49] Oh, let me see. Let me see. Um, well, I mean, from what he said in the debate, he said this at least once, I think more than once, about people should be afraid of his kids.
[11:01] Yeah.
[11:01] Um, and... I don't know that I've read this anywhere, so this is, I don't think he said this in debate, but a kind of, like, we should return to a more direct and essentially brutal kind of parenting, but that's not necessarily prescriptive of, like, where we want to go. That's just sort of like his, you know.
[11:22] It's a kind of naturalistic fallacy, right? Yeah. And I understand that because, of course, you know, the communists say that we can somehow reinvent human beings so that they don't care about profit and will work as hard no matter whether they get benefit or not. And we say, well, that's not natural. and so his argument i think goes something like well we were raised with being cuffed around and, hit and and and bopped as he as he calls it and so yeah we we can't drift too far from from our origin and and i i get so it's a naturalistic fallacy which is to say this is how we evolved, right and therefore dot dot dot right and so this is why i said okay so then if it's naturalistic then you know genghis khan or rapists they're spreading their genes he says no no it's more about culture. And I should have, of course, have replied that Genghis Khan is still on the Mongolian currency, so he's still quite a strong effect on their culture. But that point escaped me at the time. That's what I was trying to understand, is that, is it genetic? Because it's like, well, no, because if you die out, then it doesn't matter, which, of course, we can certainly agree with.
[12:28] But is it genetic? Is it cultural? He seemed to lean more towards the cultural side of things, but there's no moral content to the culture that you're spreading, right? Which is why I said, well, were the Aztecs, the thousands and thousands of years? And he's like, well, yeah, but then they fell to the conquistadors or whatever. It's like, well, yeah, but still thousands and thousands of years, they were sacrificing children. And that helped them because, you know, once you're into the circumcision thing, circumcision is good if it helps replicate your culture. It's very, it's Nietzschean. It's Nietzschean and Darwinian. It's Darwinian, but more along the lines of whatever brutality helps perpetuate your culture is good. Because if you can't perpetuate your culture, you die out or something like that, if that makes sense.
[13:10] Is it fair to say it's like Dark Triad? Like Machiavellian maybe?
[13:14] Uh it is it is an amoral kind of whatever wins and that's why i say it's sort of Nietzschean it's like the will of power right so if something if something is beneficial to your standard then it's the good uh we think of of good as moral but it's good for so if it's good for the culture to circumcise and of course you can say well the jews you know 5 000 years or whatever right 6 000 years, and they're circumcising, so you say, ah, and this is why he wanted to, I think, bring the Jewish question in, right, which is that he says, look, they circumcised their kids, their cultures lasted a long time, and so it only matters in the long run if your culture.
[13:59] Survives and flourishes and whatever you have to do to your kids to have it survive and flourish it's really the only thing that matters because if you go below your replacement rates and you just get taken over then your standards don't matter which of course is quite a strong argument in that this is Roman's argument right which is that you can be as nice as you want but nature is cruel and you're just setting yourself up for failure and so it i mean it's an argument from practicality that that makes sense from a long-term standpoint that uh if if you have a brutal tribe and you have a tribe that's super nice to its children and the brutal tribe because it breeds a lot of sociopaths takes over your tribe then your niceness just gets weeded out and what was the point yeah yeah which again is Roman's argument from uh, from my novel
[14:46] The Future so uh i get all of that, but my wheelhouse is not what may be memetically survivable over thousands of years based upon violations of the non-aggression principle. That is not my wheelhouse. It's sort of like a doctor, and you say, oh, yes, well, you know, in some sort of horrible eugenics argument, which I would completely disagree with, you say, oh, you know, but you're intervening too much, and you're letting the weak die off, right? And the doctor says, look, I'm not an agent of darwinian evolution i'm a doctor i'm supposed to keep people healthy that's my job and i am a moralist so i have to deal with good and evil right and wrong virtuous non-virtuous i can't deal with or i won't deal with evolutionary meme warfare or culture survival because then there's no such thing as morality and this is what it was interesting because i couldn't get him to you know, he said, well, I have my morality, but I can't convince anyone of my morality, which is sort of odd, because if you can't convince anyone, then his morality fails by definition. Because it dies with him, right? It dies with him.
[16:00] Well, he can't convince his kids either.
[16:01] Yeah, if he can't convince his kids, yeah.
[16:04] That's why he's gotta hit 'em.
[16:05] I mean, it is, again, I enjoyed the debate. I thought it was fun. And I thought it was rambunctious, which was enjoyable. And, you know, it's been a while since I've done the sort of ANCAP 101 stuff. So I thought that was interesting. And he says, no, no, I've studied all of this stuff. And I'm like, really? Because you're asking the most basic questions. You can't say that you studied Japanese and then ask what the word for house is. Like, it doesn't really make much sense. So I wasn't sure that that was the most upfront thing. But, you know, my, and I've thought about this, you know, like, should I just throw my lot in and try and work to maintain and whatever? But for me, it's like, you know, if our society can't become good, I mean, does it really deserve to last? You know if virtue is, abandoned by the society for the sake of convenience I mean I can make my case for the virtuous stuff but if he's right and the society that is isn't going to make it I'm not going to, beat up my kid for the sake of maybe that helps society down the road because I don't believe it would and you know if we don't make it in this cycle of history at least.
[17:22] The ideas and the arguments are there for the next cycle of history, which is,
[17:25] of course, a very long view of things. But I just I cannot get to the place where I'm like, well, let's just start doing evil for the sake of genetics and culture or whatever it is, because then now and then we're no different from the Aztecs. And what's the point of any of this been?
[17:42] And you brought in the slavery analogy, which is like basically a type... look at what Malthus was going on about. And he was talking about like not being able to feed people in the age of slavery just when i mean i was after he was in the mid-19th right so that was after our agricultural revolution started but it just started was starting to pick up right
[18:01] Yeah it certainly was not it certainly it was nowhere near the productivity that we have now
[18:06] Right. Right but i i'm trying to remember did did um did did uh malcolm himself even have a response to the you meant mentioning slavery like as a moral sort of approach or like like
[18:21] No i don't think... he seemed to dodge that one although i tell you i thought they had me by the short and curlies at one moment uh which was when i said you know how peaceful it was growing up in london ah but they were beating their kids right and okay i was like you know what that is a really hang on a sec i know it's not right but i don't know how, and you just what you have to do is just wait for that, You just have to wait, like if you're squeezing an orange and suddenly something comes out the top, I just have to let the question squeeze me until my brain panics and picks up something helpful. Because it's not the kind of thing that I can sort of reason through in the moment. But, you know, I wouldn't say my faith, but my belief in the value and validity of the non-aggression principle is so strong and so validated over so many decades that I'm like, okay, I know it's got to do with the violations of the non-aggression principle. And it's true that things were pretty brutal in families back then. And, oh, yes, that's right, because they were beating people. It leads to faith in the government. Faith in the government leads to the disruption of society and the decay of the family. Ah, there we go. So I was like, I thought I was like the guy in Pulp Fiction, Samuel L. Jackson, just... Gets shot all around but doesn't actually hit him like hey did i i gotta have a hole in me somewhere here what's going on?
[19:35] You were not kidding about him being like him being a Roman essentially being Roman yeah
[19:40] Yeah which is funny because i always thought that you know i mean my image of Roman is like this really gruff tough guy and uh this guy looks like a stiff breeze would blow him off a mountainside uh but you know obviously um a good debater and kind of knows what he's doing and and very passionate about things and and all of that and you know the fact that he's got a bunch of kids is is great yeah and you know the fact that he wrestles with the son it's great and of course i do wonder and i'll never know directly if i have grandkids maybe but what it's going to be like and it uh mike cernovich talks about this quite a bit that that uh having kids is like it's a completely different animal so to speak right they're just wild like my daughter would not climb bookcases but clamber monkeys right boys.
[20:29] Will, will do that kind of stuff. And maybe I'll find out with grandkids, but it is always a big question I'll never know. It's like, well, what if I'd had a son or a boy and a girl? Or, you know, I would have like five myself, but that wasn't in the cards. But yeah, it's interesting to imagine. Again, I know Mike Sernovich is talking about, like, it's just wild how different the boys are from the girls. And I certainly believe that and I accept that for sure. But so, yeah, he seems like a pretty good guy, But I guess at some point, the amorality, I think, is going to be a problem for the kids. Because they're going to say, why? And he's going to say, well, you can do, like, logically, he's going to have to say, you can do what you want if it maintains and spreads the culture. If it enhances the spread of the culture. That is a very tricky standard to give to kids because it's pretty subjective.
[21:27] Right?
[21:28] I mean, you can say just about anything that you could do that would be kind of wrong.
[21:32] You can say, oh, no, but it spreads the culture. Don't worry dad it's going to spread the culture and that's not a pretty good standard to have for kids and you know a point that i didn't get to which i guess i can discharge here although i think i'll go over the research that i did uh maybe on a show uh maybe tomorrow but what i wanted to get to was adults can't adults can't agree on morality how how dare we inflict on two-year-olds you know like one of the reasons that i worked so hard on upb was like i want to become a dad and wanting to become a dad means i'm going to have to explain morality to my kids.
[22:15] And so upb was like i can't explain like if you can get a phd in ethics and still not know very clearly what virtue is right then how on earth is it possible for us to say oh yeah we should totally inflict this on kids yeah yeah kids kids have got to know what right and wrong is to the point where we'll hit them when you give an adult a trolley problem and they just get a thousand yard stare you know like we're oh yes but uh you know what if somebody's starving and they want the loaf of bread and and and and what if uh what if someone's wife is dying and copyright and right there's some medicine and do they steal from like.
[22:55] Adults can't even figure out what right and wrong is. What's the balance between compassion and property, right? Like, we can't figure out what the hell morality is. And then we'd sit there and hit kids for not doing the right thing. It's like, then it's the line from Hamlet, you know, if every man is treated after his just desserts, there's none that will escape the whipping or something like that. So you know i was going to point out that uh you know i was kind of hypocritical in a show the other day when i was you know crabbing at some guy for being passive aggressive about the collecting thing when i called collecting kind of fake it gay and it's like yeah okay that's uh or gay and retarded or something something that was that was kind of a goofy off-the-cuff comment and he's like man i had to say yeah you know what you're right i'm sorry that was that's fair play so even i was not even either i was being kind of hypocritical at that point taking offense when i've been giving offense as if I hadn't been giving offense.
[23:47] So do I get hit now?
[23:49] Because even after all of this time studying philosophy, I can still do something goofy and hypocritical. Well, no. And the free speech thing I thought was interesting as well. The free speech thing was very interesting because he's like, well, making people feel bad is worse than hitting them. So honesty that results in people's feelings being hurt is worse than hitting them verbal violence is bad or worse than physical violence and then he had the nerve to call me sounding like a progressive like bro anyway right, all right does anybody else have thoughts again happy to get your feedback if there's anything i can do better or different did you think that the level of decent humor but also being quite assertive and all of that. I think I did ask you to calm his tits once when he was just sort of yelling at the top, half at the top of his lungs about things.
[24:45] You absolutely did.
[24:47] Yeah, I was just like, bro, come on, you're supposed to be a Spartan tough guy, and you're getting upset about an argument? Like, where's this incredible Spock-like certainty and rigor and strength from your tough childhood, right? Why are you getting all hysterical, it seemed like to me, over an argument and all of that?
[25:12] And that did seem but like you know if somebody's going to say you know my tough childhood made me tough and we got to be tough, like the founders of Rome and it's like your argument is making me hysterical it doesn't seem to quite track as far as, far as I can see and, I don't know if people notice that in terms of like if you're going to say that adversity makes you tough, then you should be able to handle an argument without kind of half losing your your shit right but anyway uh that's neither neither here nor there and also i i it seems it's it's like a debating style and maybe i do it too i don't know right it's hard to see from the outside but this bit where it's like your little utopia you know that kind of stuff just these these little digs you know like i well i have to deal with human children it's like yeah yeah okay we're dealing with human beings i think that's understood like just that kind of stuff uh that is uh it's almost it feels like it's more now even than it used to be but this sort of uh bitchy passive aggressive stuff uh is you know because i you know i said hey man you've got the best of intentions you're a good dad i'm not including you in the abuse your children i never said your children are traumatized i'm sort of trying to be, positive and that's sort of stuff that i really do believe but.
[26:28] Just this, these little digs, this is constantly flowing in. It's really tough because, you know, puts you, at least for me, kind of puts me in a difficult situation because I either keep pointing them out, which looks petty, or I let them roll by, in which case I look weak. But speaking of passive aggression, I'm just kidding. Jarrod, if you want to unmute, what's on your mind?
[26:48] Can you hear me all right?
[26:49] Yeah, yeah.
[26:50] Okay, awesome. I don't have too much to add, just my praise. I thought it was an awesome debate. I can really tell that you're trying to find new arguments, new ways to approach these problems. And not just that, but a new but different approaches to the debate themselves. This was, to me, a mix of fun, warm, serious with these topics as well, but you got the points across. You were playful at times, you were, you know, stern and authoritative at times. Magnificent, man. I've said it before, it's great to see you at your craft and you're awesome at it. I really, really appreciate it. It was a great debate.
[27:31] I love it all around the place. Whenever he was getting hysterical, you're like, oh, oh, wonderful. and oftentimes you can laugh and joke with him and the something that didn't get brought up yet when the moderator stepped in to bring up some points which it didn't bother me it was interesting to see I'm glad to see you answer those questions for the audience, for the world so yeah, that's generally what I got is just praise for the debate I think it was awesome.
[28:03] Oh yes! So, I'm up here in New Hampshire got the LPNH libertarians up here and um of the they know that i'm very much like freedomain like libertarians i'm like that's a coin toss what kind of libertarian um but they know me they know i'm in the freedom world and i had uh of your content the things you do this is one of those moments where people were scheduling uh like watch parties to do that i didn't go to it but i saw that that They were organizing that, you know, to have conversations and debates around it. And then people that I know in the sphere, like the person who was doing the New Hampshire messages was messaging me and we were joking about that back and forth. And yeah.
[28:48] Sorry, talking about what?
[28:50] Uh he had to like try to promoting uh i think they call it like peaceful breeders here in new hampshire or something like that it's a bit too hippie for my phrasing but i like the principle
[29:03] Right right yeah i was i had a good joke i completely forgot to use it something about you can't claim spanking a self-defense from the initiation of the use of force against children unless you count stepping on legos and hurting your feet to be the initiation of the use of force on the part of your children uh so that was the only other thing that i kind of forgot to get across and yeah the amount of research i did just in case we were going to go into studies and all of that but yeah sort of what i said look if there's a peaceful alternative wouldn't that be better and he couldn't couldn't answer that and that's why i went through all of this stuff like i did quite a bit of the latest research like 90 percent improvement 90 plus percent improvement, in these behaviors without spanking and better way better than spanking so so
[29:47] that's interesting right? Because that's the big question is, okay, if you can do it peacefully and it works according to the latest studies, why wouldn't you?
[29:58] Because you're Roman and you've got to uh you've got to keep that that keep that going on you know like this guy like you mentioned earlier like he was uh the the stereotypical like you nailed it like you know we say like um as a non-npc i can simulate an npc and so not to put this guy down he's thought about his stuff thought about these things a lot but uh for these particular things that i think people are ultimately wrong about they fall into just kind of like an npc automation and whatever, trauma response, whatever it is. And like you nailed Roman with this guy and vice versa.
[30:35] Well, I think if I were to put on my cheap psychologizing hat, which is probably nonsense, but the sort of rolling around in my head that I might just will discharge and see if they're of any value. It's that this guy can't have moral principles.
[30:46] Because that would
[30:47] Condemn his parents. So he has to say what's valuable is the continuity of the line because that's what his parents did by having so many kids. So whatever my parents did is the good and if my parents hit me i have to hit uh if my parents yelled at me or whatever right and so because his parents had so many kids then he's defined the expansion and continuation of the line as the key good thing because that's what his parents did and i can't imagine at 13 being handed over to the state by two parents because, to like like how can you how can you deal with that how can you process that your parents would be so selfish and destructive that they would rather hand you over to the state than stop, abusing each other verbally through lawyers in in some sort of horrible divorce like they're both saying each other are unfit parents and then i like i'm sure that uh you know i he said these are public records i haven't read them but i'm sure that it wasn't just the judge who said that's it, I'm taking the kids and putting them in kid jail, right? I think it was like, look, if you.
[31:56] If you keep slinging all this mud at each other,
[31:59] Then the net is going to be your kid's going to go into a juvenile facility. Now, it seemed like Foster, I wasn't sure if it was because like kid jail because he was acting out in some manner or something like that. But I assumed that the judge said to his parents, you have to work to resolve this or I'm putting your kid in this system, this pretty awful system. And the parents would not back down. And I'm sure they were told by the judge, you've got to stop attacking each other in this ferocious way because I can't give the kid to either of you because parental alienation is going to happen for sure. And so if you can't come to a resolution, your kid's going to kid jail.
[32:44] And they were like, yep, okay, off he goes. Like, that's wild to me. I can't even express, you know, the contempt that I would have for that kind of perspective Because, you know, parents do have to put their egos aside and do what is best for their kids. And this is like, wow, that is really, really digging into hating on each other to the point where your kid at the age of 13 gets naked from the family structure and dumped in some government system. It's like, wow. And to not criticize that at all, to not, I mean, he could not take the moral judgment. That to me is a real shattering of bond and you can't get to principles if, and it also says to me that the parents, and still can't handle criticism because I think that's why people, I mean, people don't want to criticize others.
[33:31] If it's going to result in some absolute disaster now he could say look uh the what i've learned from my parents is you don't criticize people it's like but he was criticizing me a.
[33:44] Lot some of
[33:45] It you know some of it was just sort of pulled out of thin air right and that's fine it's like i'm not made of glass i don't mind the criticism that's fine but it's just kind of funny where me advocating for peaceful parenting is someone that he's going to call like bad and you know wrong or whatever but his parents who put him in kid jail at 13 are great like i i i don't know how people uh hold those opposing thoughts in their head sorry for the long speech but this.
[34:12] Guy is interesting in in an aspect of um he's he's very unabashed very direct and sometimes i'm like oh this could be really interesting because he seems like he possibly was maybe really curious about moral positions and things like that but no
[34:26] This he.
[34:27] Has thought about this a lot it means very much i mean you kind of very honest and directed about it like will to power nietzschean whatever like you know evolutionary it justifies the means in terms of like you know what good your betworm it doesn't matter if your species is gone you know kind of thing yeah i i'm i'm of this side that uh i believe peaceful parenting philosophy principles all of these things produce a far more a robust individual in
[34:56] Society, you know, family chart.
[34:57] All that stuff, like, I think this is the better evolutionary path. But once you've given away to, well, if I can see my line dying, then anything's on the table. Where's the boundary of that? What's the line for that? And we've seen this so many times with people that if they don't have some kind of principle to go by, and I can't accept that as a principle, that like if I perceive enough threat, anything's on the table. And if you To me, I can't see anything different between that and, like, that's the root of a leftist. Like, whatever gets me the power. Whatever, you know, gets me the end. And then at the same time, I personally, I just categorize that with evil. I can't see a difference when I look at it, you know, broadly enough.
[35:51] So, sorry, yeah, a bit of a ramble rant there. But this guy is interesting in that way. Like, he's a very modern, to me, like, will the power Nietzschean, like, he could say, he says he's moral, but I don't see any moral principle. Like, as soon as he perceives enough threat, the principles can go out the window,
[36:10] You know.
[36:11] Well, and the leftists, of course, ally themselves with those who've done demonstrable wrong and against those who are arguing for something better.
[36:21] And so his parents,
[36:25] Like I'm not saying they're stone evil, I don't know, but this is not great parenting. To be so dysfunctional in your divorce and so hostile and full of hatred to each other that the government takes your children from both of you, that's not good. That's pretty bad. But that he can forgive. But heaven forbid I talk about a stateress society, right? Like that's bad and wrong and I'm wrong. So he can oppose me. But he can't oppose his parents. And that, to me, that's the kind of inversal.
[36:56] Of moral values
[36:57] That I find pretty wild.
[36:59] Yeah. Did you notice how, just before he got ostensibly offended and you called him out on this, and then he called you out later on, where he's getting ostensibly offended where he framed you as causing his trauma or something along those lines. I'm sorry, I don't think the exact detail.
[37:18] Sorry, Jarrod, you're kind of fading in and out.
[37:20] Oh, sorry. Can you hear me better now?
[37:22] Yeah, go ahead.
[37:23] So he seemed offended or was kind of calling you out on framing it as he was causing trauma to his kids. And, of course, you corrected him. But then, as soon as you described how you would never punish your daughter, he got the most pearl-clutchiest face on. Like, oh, I don't think that's a good idea.
[37:46] Well, no, he said people, and that's a sad argument. there's a lot there's few
[37:50] people who would think that's a good idea it's like and.
[37:52] And like face and body language he got pro clutchy like you're just getting like bent out of shape about the impression that he might that stef might say that uh you know hitting is causing your kid's trauma which you didn't say you know uh there well it's
[38:09] Certainly it's designed to be unpleasant for the child so it's negative but i i wouldn't say that the children are traumatized uh you know i I mean, it's not ideal, but... So, what was the other thought? No, punish. Yeah, don't punish. Yeah, I mean, that was sort of my point. It's like, it's my job to work on keeping my daughter safe. And if there's a problem, I first have to look in the mirror. Oh, yeah, the other thing was that it's interesting how I kept saying, here's all the ways. I thought it was a pretty good argument. Of course, tell me if you think it's not. But it's a pretty good case to say that we don't deal with fistfights usually as adults. We have to deal with things like disappointment and rejection and hostility and physical pain and illness and so on, right? And so when I was saying, look, hitting my child... Is inflicting a negative consequence that they're not going to have to deal with as adults. People have got around, at least not in my neighborhood, don't go around punching each other.
[39:13] So letting her experience negative consequences like physical pain and disapproval and so on, and rejection, this is preparing her for adulthood because those are the kind of things we need to deal with as adults, which I thought was a pretty good argument. But he kept flipping back to, and this is the not listening stuff that drives me kind of batty. You know like you've heard this a million times on my show where i somebody i ask someone a question they go on a tangent and i say well what was the question i just asked you and they have no idea like it's very very bizarre uh because i i tried to i listen kind of half obsessively and i make lots of notes.
[39:46] And so on but
[39:48] He kept saying well you know your children have to learn how to experience negative consequences and i'm like yes i just said that's like i gave all of the examples of the negative consequences you know that that and it's like yeah but but but but still they have to be able to experience negative consequences that's just kind of a broken record thing which i think actually obviously not to psychoanalyze the guy i don't know him and again i'm very glad to have had the debate seems like a pretty good dad in most regards but that's just a trauma response where you just you cannot get out of the groove yeah well the only negative consequences that your kids need negative consequences the only ones that you can really uh have your kids experience is is hitting them because disapproving of them is worse and it's like what but but, But people are going to disapprove of them over the course of their life. So if you don't give them disapproval, but you only give them hitting, and then they grow up in a situation where they're not being hit but being disapproved of, you're not preparing them for adulthood.
[40:46] Right.
[40:46] That makes sense.
[40:47] You know, I absolutely think that is a good argument. To expand on that, and to come across his point of this evolutionary thing, what kind of society and interactions, what kind of peers are you raising your kids to accept and expect? If it's people that knock each other around when they you know have problems or to to expect like that's the way they may have to solve their problems that kind of stuff what groups in society are you training your kids to tolerate pretty much expect you know
[41:26] Well i mean you know your kids need to learn how to deal with being hit and it's like and then i want to move them to rural pennsylvania it's.
[41:32] Like i don't
[41:33] Know much about rural pennsylvania but i don't think it's a knockdown slug out slugfest of a society i'm sure it's pretty rural and people look out for each other and in the same way that they do in new hampshire i mean well let me ask
[41:45] you this Jarrod when was the last time you got into a full-on fistfight oh full-on.
[41:51] Fistfight oh man that would have been i i can nothing comes to mind beyond like my first job where this one guy had a problem with me and basically just kind of got in my face.
[42:06] I didn't back down and we got to blows. Yeah.
[42:09] And how long ago was that?
[42:11] I was 19. I'm 42.
[42:14] Right. And how many fistfights would you say you've got into in the course of your life? Oh, man. That's an adult. I mean, I don't even say as a kid, it doesn't really matter.
[42:26] I can only think of that one.
[42:28] Okay, so one, right? Have you ever been rejected or disappointed?
[42:33] Oh, yes. Right.
[42:37] A little bit more than once, right? Quick question for those of you who don't know. Jarrod has a fetish, a calling, an obsession around handiwork. Quick question. As a handyman, have you ever injured yourself?
[42:56] Yes. Never maimed, but you did say injured.
[42:59] Not maimed. Not maimed.
[43:00] Good.
[43:00] Good. Well, you know, goals. as he would say goals um yeah but okay so roughly would you say how many times have you hit your thumb with the hammer or stuff like that well i.
[43:13] Could i could even hazard a guess hundreds
[43:15] Probably over the decades right yeah.
[43:17] Like hit knocked my head on something uh you know got a little bit too close i i take the safety stuff off of my tools because they they get in the way and so uh yeah yeah yeah this has happened well and we're not even talking
[43:31] About the even worse injuries which is when i when i put the echo on the karaoke machine but that's perhaps a topic for another time but so so yeah so you have to deal with rejection with disappointment with uh sometimes loneliness and and physical pain from injuries and things like so to me letting your kids experience those things in a.
[43:52] Sort of you know
[43:53] Relatively controlled format and so on is preparing them for adulthood i'm not sure that hitting them is so uh and you want your kids to grow up with reasoning skills, not with obedience to pain skills. And look, again, I'm not saying that Malcolm, that's all he's doing. I'm sure he reasons with his kids. And he says by the age of six, It's largely done with and so on. So I think he's saying that reasoning is better. And he also didn't address the fact that I did have. And, you know, it's kind of funny all the coincidences in my life, right? So, yes, I have only one child, but I did have – I spent years working with 25 to – 15 to – 25 to 30 kids age 5 to 10 for, you know, 8, 9 hours a day sometimes. Sometimes and never needed to use force and never had any particular issues and so on. But they had to, you know, I remember telling them the story of the Silmarillion. I mean, obviously, I made up about 50% of it because nobody knows what the hell that story is about. But I'd have them sort of, you know, stay close as we went through the park so they could hear the story, you know, just things like that. And I try to keep it entertaining for the older and not too incomprehensible for the younger. So if you're interesting and if they like you and you have something of value to offer them, they're not going to go run into the lake. Like, it's just not, it'd be like, you know, you're on a great date and you're like, hey, I got to run into traffic. It's like, you might get away from a bad date, maybe, but not a good date.
[45:20] Yeah.
[45:21] But yeah, there wasn't much response to that, if that makes sense.
[45:24] I definitely noticed that where you brought that up and there was just, yeah, it was deadpan. But at some point he got to be where he was broken record, constant kind of like interrupting hysteria, like just kind of repeating the same points you had already addressed.
[45:40] But I also think, you know, to his credit, I think he did a very good job in many ways because, you know, he was fake when needed, right? So he clearly wasn't a principled guy. So his was all arguments from effect and arguments from anxiety. Well, the world's getting dangerous. You've got to hit your kids, kind of stuff like that. I'm sort of simplifying a little bit. If hitting your kids or even sawing off their foreskin helps transmit culture, then it's good. Because if it doesn't transmit culture, who cares? So he's an amoral, argument-from-effect guy and wouldn't engage, to my memory, And again, I know it's a little chaotic when you're sort of making notes and listening and talking, but he wouldn't engage in how the violations of the non-aggression principle are leading to the circumstances that he views as negative, right? So the father absence and so on, right?
[46:36] And so he didn't want to deal with that because my argument is, you know, violence in the home leads to violence in society. If you have to have violence to run the home, of course, you have to have violence to run society. And so I think the violence or whatever, I'm not sure it was violence. I don't know much about his childhood other than the few of the highlight bad parts. But if there was that kind of aggression in his household, then he's not going to be able to grapple with it at a social level because he has to justify it in his parents. Therefore, he can't identify or condemn it at a social or political level. And it was really, to me, it was really fascinating to see that theory come so vividly to life.
[47:14] Yeah. Yeah. James, I saw you unmuted. Did you want to?
[47:18] Uh, yeah. So, um...
[47:20] James, stop interrupting. No, I'm just kidding.
[47:21] Yeah yeah. No. Oh gosh. What was it now? Um, oh yeah, he had, uh, he, he, he was put into the kid jail when he was 13. And he also mentioned on the, in the course of the debate that he plans on, you know, putting his kids, I sound like put them in the woods to fend for themselves for a couple of months. So very much like you know if I'm not remembering correctly correct me but yeah he not only not forgiven or sorry it's not like he's forgiven his parents he sort of like approved of it in some level
[47:54] See now I don't necessarily I don't think that that's abusive as a whole I mean I'm certainly happy to hear the case
[48:02] Well, no maybe not okay maybe not abusive but it was a bit like
[48:08] I mean wouldn't you have loved to try that I mean, obviously, you know, you wouldn't just be dumped there and picked up again a month or two later. But I mean, wouldn't that be kind of cool to give that a shot as a kid? You know, obviously, you know, 14 or whatever, right? Like to have a shot at, you know, planning, let's say a week in the woods or something like that. I mean, I remember when I was 15, my friends and I went hiking for a week in Algonquin Park. And it was a complete disaster of a trip. So we had a guy who was so macho, he refused to take, he refused to use water purification tablets, was kind of half drinking out of moose tracks, and then very predictably got quite ill. It was a complete disaster of a trip, but we all made it, right? So I don't know. I mean, maybe a couple of months might be a little bit long, but I mean, I do think that some of the overprotection of kids, I mean, to me, it would have been pretty exciting to plan that and give that a shot. Maybe not for months, but at least try a week or something.
[49:06] I would have been down for that. Absolutely. Yeah.
[49:09] Yeah. I think that would have been kind of interesting, but... But I know that James needs his hair gel.
[49:14] You know, I'm really not sure at the age of 14 or 13, because I've never been much of an outdoorsy guy. But at the same time, could have been fun. I don't know.
[49:25] Well, it would just be an interesting challenge, right?
[49:27] Yeah, yeah.
[49:28] I mean, Charles Murray has this, like, you know, you become an adult and just go fly to some foreign country with a couple of hundred bucks in your pocket and see what you can make work. And uh i think that's you know he says that's a that's a big plus and uh you know he's keen on that and again i mean i know that's older but i don't know i think i sort of think of the huckleberry finn stuff and the tom sawyer stuff from mark twain and obviously again a bit young and a bit chaotic but i think that kids can have adventures uh a little sooner especially now with cell phones and all you just dump in the woods and pick them up in a month but i think it would be interesting to have that kind of challenge and again i was sort of 15 tried to do a week in algonquin with friends and we lasted a couple of days but i was fine i was fine but um
[50:16] I think i think it was i think it was the couple of months thing that kind of was like oh but yeah
[50:22] I mean that may be a little long yeah.
[50:24] But you know what i mean as as like hey you know i mean and and obviously uh oh maybe not obviously i was gonna say obviously if they're down if the kids are down with it i mean maybe you sort of nudge him it's like hey you know give it a shot you know see what you can do you know
[50:38] Well I think you'd also step them up to it right you'd say try a day try a couple of days try a week you know i wouldn't just say yeah i'll come pick you up in three months good luck with the wolves right i think you'd need you need i and you know i i'm sure he was talking about maybe stepping up uh in some way but i i think the kids are just a lot more, a lot more competent and resourceful and because you remember you know kids used to start working with machinery and and so on and dangerous stuff sort of five six seven eight years old and and the chimney sweeps and you know and and they went and explored and then and all of that so i think i think the kids can generally do uh have a lot more adventures than parents think of these days but with with the rise of sort of the somewhat neurotic uh mom thing it's like oh okay play video games because at least i know where you are at least i know that you're safe and it's like yeah but it's not the best kind of safety
[51:32] Yeah. Yeah no, you know what, that's that's fair i i take that uh i take that entirely you know i don't want to be unfair to him in that particular way
[51:41] I mean i hear what you're saying in the couple of months seems a bit surprising and i'm i'm sure that uh some of that was hyperbole but i kind of get where he's coming from in that uh you know that this thing on online where people say is it true that in like the 80s you just roamed around the neighborhood all day and it's like yeah that's that's what we did i mean i did when i wasn't working uh there was not much to do at home there were no there's no internet no video games nothing really on tv oh you just you roamed you just roamed and you know we had no money and we had you know the bikes are seven colors and we just bike around we go garbage picking and we go you know scrounge together a bottle of dented beans and go cook it in the woods and you know we just just do stuff and try and find a way to make it work and that's i think that's largely, incomprehensible and it's also partly just because the video games have become so absorbing for people that it is uh, it's tough to compete. Like, the mere outdoors just can't compete. But I think it would be pretty wild to try and make it in the woods as in your sort of mid-teens. All right, we have somebody who wants to jump in. Sorry, go ahead. Compared to you, if you want to unmute.
[52:47] I only had one other thing, which is, it was interesting, he's talking about, he's talking about getting his kids to sort of carry forward the culture, but it wasn't the culture that his parents created, was it? Or was it?
[53:01] I don't know, because I don't, think that he wants his kids to go to government jail right so his son is sick so in seven years he doesn't want his kid going to government jail so I think what he's saying is I'm a better person because of my hardships therefore the hardships are good right which is I'm sort of saying like if you end up in a wheelchair you get significant amounts of upper body strength but that's not the best way to get it and you can get good things out of bad things that doesn't make the bad things good otherwise we would just you know beat the hell out of everyone and and assume that then and of course some people get broken by by these negative experiences and obviously he's pretty robust and that's good sorry compared to if you wanted to unmute happy to hear your your thoughts.
[53:46] Oh i i think you did great uh i just wish you you mentioned new hampshire a little bit more
[53:53] Well that wasn't really up to me but uh we did it at the end yeah.
[53:58] I really appreciated the part, it wasn't a very large part of the debate, but I really appreciated the part where you had started talking about within the different ages for the different capacities that kids will have on average during those ages, how you can approach problem-solving if a kid is losing their temper in a situation or if they are going after a dangerous object.
[54:32] Right. Yeah. So that was, you mean, I was sort of, I was reading off some of the research about how you can handle these situations without hitting?
[54:40] Yes. And I thought that was, that was great. That was practical. That was meaningful. I hope that there, I don't know that there were, but I hope that there were listeners out there who heard you talk about those different things and are able to take that back with them as alternatives they have to, I don't know, hitting their kids to get compliance or something.
[55:08] Yeah, and it really does work. I mean, it works very well statistically as a whole to, to take those approaches. So yeah, it really does. It does work out very well. And so, yeah, but he didn't, it's interesting, right? Because he didn't really seem to be super keen on that sort of information. Because that goes into the criticism of his own parents, I think.
[55:38] Yeah, that's, well, and this is something you've definitely talked about many times and written about the, I don't know, the awkwardness, the difficulty of confronting if my parents could have done better, why did they not? Or asking them like if they had because sometimes it's like oh i didn't know any better it's like well why didn't you know any better and so it's like uh uh like confronting that is is is difficult and i don't mean that uh um that your suggestions uh were there to like put parents in the audience on the back foot of like oh well these are somewhat obvious or things that you could have done or now that i've told you these things if you don't do that that's like additional you know there's additional there where it's like if they are confronted by their kids and in the future and they ask them well why did you hit me if you knew specifically these ideas of exactly how you could have done better and did you try them, that it just, it definitely, maybe solidifies moral culpability there where they can't hide.
[57:05] Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, if you don't know, if you've never studied it, you can't be held quite as much responsible for it. And this is something that I think this is true. I never know, of course, because it's got to do with reporters. But I was sort of struck that this is what the reporter wrote about Malcolm in 2024. Again, whether it's true or not, who knows, right?
[57:29] But she wrote, in the car on the way to the restaurant, Malcolm tells me how much he doesn't like babies. and he says, quote, objectively, they are trying and they're aggravating. They're gross. This little bomb that goes off crying in this big explosion of poo and mucus every 30, 40 minutes, and it doesn't have a personality, really. But once the kid enters the goof patrol, as we call it, I love them to death. They're amazing. They're so happy. They're so full of life. And I don't know about that. I mean, it doesn't sound like there's a lot of pair bonding going on. You can't obviously pair bond with the baby if you really dislike the baby and consider it gross. And I wonder if maybe the lack of pair bonding that might come out of the child getting really positive, the baby getting really positive responses from you when they're babies, if that leads to more disobedience later on. Like if you have this kind of revulsion about babies, what does that mean in terms of how much they're going to want to listen to you later on? And that's, you know, maybe that's a bit of a stretch, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if that had some relationship. In the same way that his forgiveness of his parents and his aggression towards his children are related. I mean, if he's justifying his parents' aggression towards him or indifference towards him or lack of concern or care for his motives, then of course he's going to end up reproducing that. Like what we justify, we reproduce. Whatever we excuse, we repeat.
[58:54] All right. Any other thoughts, people, questions, issues, challenges, problems? Really do appreciate the feedback. And thank you to those who helped me refine the arguments. Gosh, was that today? Earlier today? I think it was. But yeah, no, was it yesterday? Anyway, it was some point. But I really do appreciate people's help. And if there's anything that crosses your mind, you can always email support@freedomain.com. And don't forget to support the show, freedomain.com/donate and shop.freedomain.com to pick up your merch and peacefulparentingbook.com to get your copy. It's running out of time if you want to get it for Christmas. So I hope you will check that out. And thanks to James again for all the great research. Thanks for the feedback. Lots of love from up here my friends. I'll talk to you soon. Bye.
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