In this X Subscribers Space from 25 September 2025, philosopher Stefan Molyneux engages in a thought-provoking dialogue with a diverse array of callers, delving deep into the complexities of forgiveness, morality, and justice. The discussion kicks off with a curiosity about Christian forgiveness, particularly focused on the case of Charlie Kirk, a recent victim of a tragic murder. Stefan introduces a moral framework that questions the sincerity and rationale behind forgiving individuals, particularly when the act of forgiveness may seem selective or biased. The individual perspectives presented ignite a rich discourse about the moral hierarchies we establish, questioning how societal values interweave with personal ethics.
A caller, who identifies as raised in the LDS (Mormon) tradition, brings an intriguing perspective to the conversation by discussing the inherent belief system that dictates the Mormons' view of justice and forgiveness. They emphasize that within their framework, God's justice is inherently just, allowing for redemption rather than condemnation for questioning salvation—a stark contrast from traditional Christian views that may dictate otherwise. The intertwining of forgiveness and justice leads to a deeper examination of how moral accountability plays a role when one faces grave acts of violence, such as murder. This caller expresses hesitance towards a community that appears to forgive a murderer without prompting genuine repentance, which sets the stage for further probing into the ethics of forgiveness in the face of significant human wrongdoing.
As the conversation evolves, another caller introduces the idea of moral culpability, challenging the prevailing sentiment of unwarranted forgiveness. This segues into a striking exploration of murderer's claims of innocence in the context of societal perceptions. The discussion touches upon the complexities of justice when murderers plead not guilty even in the face of overwhelming evidence, raising questions about broader interpretations of justice and mercy. This leads to debates on the state’s role in delivering justice versus the individual’s moral compass in forgiveness—creating a tension that resonates throughout society’s handling of violent crime.
The discussion then takes an unexpected turn towards cultural dynamics when the merits of societal forgiveness are laid bare against the backdrop of race and socio-political implications. One caller questions whether Charlie Kirk's white identity plays a role in how the public reacts to his murder and the ensuing call for forgiveness. This crescendoing discussion about racial culpability in moral discussions unveils the awkward intersection of race, morality, and societal expectation, further complicating how forgiveness is viewed.
Contribution from listeners continues, enriching the narrative with perspectives that explore the implications of forgiveness, guilt, and the moral duties of men and women in society. Stefan, with his characteristic analytical flair, probes the audience on whether forgiveness can be viewed as a commodity or an emotional luxury in a society that requires accountability. The balance between personal feelings of forgiveness and societal justice leads to questions about gendered morality, where women’s expressions of forgiveness are contrasted against the expectation placed on men to enact justice—a compelling consideration in societal dynamics.
Through nuanced exchanges, Stefan remains unwavering yet empathetic, impeccably guiding the conversation to touch upon the deeper implications of forgiveness: Is it genuine if it lacks repentance? How do societal nuances color personal beliefs? This intricate discussion ultimately prompts reflection on the very nature of forgiveness and how it intersects with justice, guiding the audience to a contemplation of their own moral standings in a world drenched in complex realities.
As the conversation winds down, Stefan encourages more feedback and inquiries, inviting critical engagement with what has emerged as a multifaceted discourse on morality and forgiveness. The audience is left with a canvas of perplexing questions that linger in the air long after the discussion concludes, solidifying this session as a profound exploration of the ethics surrounding forgiveness in contemporary society.
0:05 - Introduction to Forgiveness
2:49 - The Mormon Perspective on Justice
5:46 - Moral Dilemmas of Murder
7:14 - Repentance and Forgiveness
8:59 - Ethics of Violence and State Punishment
12:01 - Historical Context of Mormon Beliefs
13:44 - Transitioning from Marxism
19:38 - Personal Experiences with Academia
21:41 - Legal Proceedings of the Alleged Shooter
26:13 - Racial Dynamics in Societal Reactions
30:22 - The Role of Gender in Forgiveness
38:41 - The Burden of Male Responsibility
[0:00] All right, now I can irradiate my head in the proper way with a Bluetooth headset. So that's good. That's good. That's good. Although this isn't just a test. This isn't just a test. Whatever you guys have on your mind, comments, questions, issues, challenges, problems, whatever you like or don't like, I'm happy to hear.
[0:19] Yeah, I saw this morning that you posted about a question about Christians and how they could easily, or how you found it difficult for Christians to not forgive people who would want forgiveness for Charlie Kirk, or people that would question forgiveness for Charlie Kirk. Am I getting this right?
[0:40] So, yeah, sort of something I talked about yesterday. I appreciate bringing it up. I'm a big one for moral hierarchies. And so, obviously, a murderer is worse than somebody who asks a question or who has a wrong opinion. Let's say I've got the wrong opinion about forgiveness. And so if it's really good to forgive a murderer, then how can it be bad to forgive someone who says, I don't think it's really good to forgive a murderer? And that's sort of my question, or that was sort of my issue with what happened this week. And having alienated the atheists and made friends with the Christians, It's now time to alienate the Christians and make friends with, well, you guys. I hear it. But, you know, I really just have to, I have to, I can't let myself be biased by things that I like or things that I don't like. So, yeah, my issue was that everybody praised Erica Kirk's forgiveness of the murderer. And Ben was really petty and nasty and mean with me. And it's like that, that makes like, not only does that make no sense, but people aren't even noticing that it makes no sense. And that's bizarre to me.
[1:51] Yeah, I wanted to mention, and I'm not sure if this is like an attempted snowball at getting at you, but I was raised Mormon, LDS.
[1:59] Yeah, yeah.
[2:00] It's a large community. We don't believe that. So for us, we're outside of that Christian bubble where we would believe someone wouldn't be saved for questioning Christ. So for us, we don't maintain that kind of bizarre schism that doesn't follow through with that. Philosophy or a concept of justice like we believe in a just god so there wouldn't be there wouldn't be a god that would create people who wouldn't have an opportunity to be saved, just because they didn't learn something like it that we don't believe that you would just die not be saved for questioning things we're not knowing oh i i had a phone call come and break me off sorry oh.
[2:39] Okay got it oh i was just we were trying some tech stuff here so yeah go ahead Oh,
[2:44] Did I miss my last comment? I'm sorry. I think my phone muted or something bizarre.
[2:50] Yeah.
[2:50] Yeah, I was just making the concept about the Mormons. Did you guys get that? About how we don't believe that you wouldn't...
[2:56] God wouldn't make you rational and asking questions and then damn you for being rational asking questions.
[3:01] Exactly.
[3:02] And the funny thing is, like, I mean... And sorry, I don't want to overtalk your comments, but I just, like, I literally quoted Jesus. People say, where's the biblical scripture? And Jesus repeatedly says... Forgive your brother and like, sorry, pardon your brother or talk with your brother. And if he repents, forgive him. If he repents, forgive him. And this is repeated several times.
[3:23] Right.
[3:23] And apparently that doesn't matter. Apparently like, you're wrong. It's like, well, you're not arguing with me, bro. You're arguing with Jesus. And if you want to argue with Jesus, I'm not sure that, and again, argue is fine, but you're literally saying that Jesus is wrong for saying that people need to repent before you forgive them. But the wild thing is that didn't slow anyone down at all
[3:43] Right. Yeah this charlie kirk thing has just been a real mind bender, uh would you mind if i brought up a second topic about charlie kirk?
[3:53] well hang on yeah before you do that yeah please hold your thought but okay and i definitely want to hear that other one but if you could tell me like so the mormon perspective on charlie kirk's murderer last i heard uh and again assuming it's the guy right we won't know for sure until there's a court
[4:07] right
[4:07] Verdict but But assuming it's the guy, the guy has pleaded not guilty.
[4:13] Right.
[4:14] So he says he didn't do it. Now... That's interesting because maybe there was a second shooter near him. It's obviously a very tiny chance, but maybe he's not the killer.
[4:29] I mean, to plead not guilty is a pretty wild thing because normally, if you're in that kind of situation, my guess is that the lawyer says, look, man, they got your gun. They got the bullet. They got the markerson the bullet.
[4:42] You're the only guy who was up there. You're on the video. They've got you dead to rights. The best you can do is plea.
[4:48] Right
[4:48] and i would imagine they'd say um you got a plea so that you don't get the only thing they have to offer you is not the death penalty so plea guilty get the not death penalty if you can negotiate that and that's the best that you can hope for and so he is pleading not guilty which if they have him dead to rights again this is i haven't confirmed this i don't know james if you can just double check on this that's sort of last i heard and maybe it has or maybe it hasn't but If he pleads not guilty, maybe he didn't do it, in which case there's nothing to forgive. But for sure he hasn't said, I rejected Jesus in my heart. I have sinned mightily. I'm pulling a full 180 about Raskolnikov and becoming a good guy. He hasn't done any of that. So what's the moral perspective on if someone murders your husband in front of your children in the most gruesome fashion possible? and does it knowing
[5:43] that there are like 50 cameras trained on him. So this gets to be replayed for eternity. Like the kids are going to be scrolling in 20 years on social media and watch their father's head get blown off again. Like this is just about the ugliest thing that I've seen in quite some time.
[6:01] And so what's the Mormon perspective on this kind of evil?
[6:04] Well, the Mormons, they fully, historically, we believed in protecting ourselves, even if it meant use of force from ourselves. So, but the idea of him being guilty and Mormons forgiving him, I think we're a little bit different than other Christians.
[6:23] I think for the Mormons, we will forgive someone in their heart, forgive them for what they've done. But that doesn't mean we're not going to execute you through the state, if that makes sense.
[6:34] Okay, but he doesn't need to repent in order to be forgiven.
[6:38] I mean, for us...
[6:40] And it's not a criticism I just want to make sure I understand the Mormon perspective \
[6:43] He would need to repent to be...
[6:46] Yeah,
[6:48] You're back
[6:49] Well, I think there's a little bit of nuance in there.
[6:54] I'm sorry, everyone's kind of talking at the same time. I'm not sure what's going on. I don't know if this is a tech thing or somebody's phone thing.
[7:00] Yeah, I couldn't hear anything.
[7:01] I'm sorry, I thought I could hear something.
[7:04] Yeah, so my question is, for the Mormon perspective, does he need to repent in order to be forgiven?
[7:09] He would be. He would have to repent in order to be
[7:11] forgiven, but he wouldn't have to be forgiven by us. He just needs to repent to God. He would need to tell God he's sorry after he's dead in his face. In whatever system that looks like, you know, I don't know what it looks like in reality, but he would have to feel guilt and remorse for the murder in order to be forgiven. But this would all by God.
[7:35] No, no, no. Erika. So if Erika was a Mormon, would she be following Mormon teachings to forgive him if he hadn't repented?
[7:43] Yes.
[7:44] Okay. So help me understand that.
[7:46] Yeah. Uh, because repentance, it's not, it's not a, it's not a human thing that we can give. It has to be done through God.
[7:55] Well, no, because if she's giving him repentance, that's a human thing that she's given.
[8:00] And it's fine that she can give that, but that, that her giving that emotion to him or acknowledging it really doesn't have a whole lot to do with the way God's going to deal with him when it comes to his judgment. That's my point.
[8:13] Well, no. So I understand that. I mean, there, are no Christians that I've ever talked to or Mormons or anyone who say that we should forgive a murderer and let him roam the streets to kill again, right? So they say there's personal forgiveness, but that means he still gets executed by the state.
[8:29] Right.
[8:30] Okay. So...
[8:32] So some Christians, or I guess in this case,
[8:34] Some Mormons, some Mormons are obligated to forgive the murderer, and other Mormons are obligated to kill him and not forgive him. Like the Mormons in the state don't forgive him and kill him, and the Mormons that he actually wronged do forgive him. In other words, those he's harmed the least kill him, and those he's harmed the most are supposed to forgive him.
[8:56] Yes.
[8:58] You understand that's a little baffling, right?
[9:00] Oh, I certainly understand there's an issue there. And I'm not a full-blown Mormon anymore. I'm not, but I can still speak for the ethics of it.
[9:08] I'm not accusing you of any particular, if you brought the Mormon perspective, and that's what I'm sort of trying to understand, is that Jesus very clearly says, if your brother repents, forgive him. This guy hasn't repented, so why is he being forgiven? And I'm still trying to sort of follow that.
[9:23] Man, let me introduce a new package into this situation. For Mormons, the first section of the Book of Mormon actually includes a murder. There's basically a family who's fleeing from the Middle East, and they're living under an oppressive state. This is actually what is in the Book of Mormon. They're living under an authoritarian system, and they can no longer practice their religion. They can no longer, you know, worship towards God. And basically this guy, Laban, who was this mean ruler that was this authoritarian dictator that had stopped his family from practicing their belief system. But one of the one of the brothers from the family cuts off his head.
[10:08] Oh.
[10:09] And he leaves and the family leaves. But since it was them fighting his aggression, making sure they could flee.
[10:17] He was a tyrant, yeah.
[10:18] he was a tyrant.
[10:19] So it's kind of like self-defense.
[10:21] So maybe this kid, and I've talked about, I've talked, I've brought this issue up to a handful of my close Mormon friends who live in Provo. I grew up there as well, like where this happened. And we did kind of joke and we kind of did, you know, kind of toss this idea around that this kid actually believes that Charlie Kirk was a tyrant and that he's not guilty for murdering him. And I think it's actually a possibility.
[10:41] Well, I mean, that's what the left has been pushing, right? That they're fascists and Nazis and you're just like the guys on the beach at Normandy killing Nazis if you kill conservatives. And yeah, I mean, that's definitely been pushed for sure.
[10:55] Right. And I think it's actually baked into Mormon philosophy. Well, it is baked into Mormon philosophy. I mean, it's how I was raised. You know, I was taught that I could use violence to defend myself if it came down to stopping us from living the life that Christ and God intended for us.
[11:13] Right.
[11:14] So if this guy believes, say, that Charlie Kirk was advocating killing trans people, or if he believes that women have the right to abortion and Charlie Kirk was going to take that away, I guess in some sort of twisted way you could say he was acting in third-party self-defense or something like that. But, of course, the problem is that then people can go around, and I'm not suggesting this, of course, but the logic of the position would be that if the media were to, say, incite violence against conservatives, then people should be able to, by that logic, shoot people in the media, which we kind of don't want, obviously.
[11:47] Yes, we don't want that.
[11:49] So the problem is, is that if you say, well, we can kill over words and not over imminent grievous bodily harm, then, I mean, I'm not sure where that would ever end.
[12:01] I agree. And this has actually been an issue that's unfolded within Mormon history a number of times.
[12:08] On the other hand, if there is a genuine tyrant and you take him out and his tyranny never comes to pass, I can see the argument for that as well, right?
[12:21] And like I said, this actually happened in Mormon history when the Mormons were building kind of a refuge in Illinois. Their population was about to outgrow what was there in the rest of the states. The Mormons were about to elect Joseph Smith as the governor of the state. And the current governor at the time, his name was Wade Boggs, like the baseball player. He actually sent people to eliminate the Mormons and the Mormons found out and it literally turned into a war.
[12:47] Yeah.
[12:47] And that's why the Mormons had to keep heading west.
[12:49] Well, or you could say that if the Romanovs in Russia had dealt with the communists, arrested or executed them or something like that, then you wouldn't have 70 million people murdered under communism. And those 70 million people would be like, okay, so, you know, a couple of dozen communists got arrested or killed, I can live with that. If somebody had killed or disabled or incarcerated the communists who were taking over in North Korea, well, I'm pretty sure that the descendants of of the people currently trapped in North Korea would be happy if they knew the alternate timeline.
[13:28] Right. Yeah, I mean, I would love to talk about communism for hours. I was actually trained as a professor, as a Marxist professor.
[13:38] And for a chunk of my life, I believed it. And I was a full-blown Marxist. I believed it. I changed my Mormon faith over it.
[13:47] Wow.
[13:47] And in the end, after living as a Marxist for about 10 years, I ended up broke. I was basically living in a tiny house. I'd lost, you know, I had really high power, strong jobs that I lost. I used to work in entertainment for Viacom. I had a professorship.
[14:05] Oh, but you hated the system and you hated capitalism.
[14:07] Yeah, but I ruined it for myself. But it was also completely run by Marxists. So that once they got a whiff that I had any sort of thoughts outside of their system, I was literally canceled. I was probably one of the first people canceled in Hollywood over the Prop 8 issue when the Mormons voted for the Prop 8 issue in California. I was starring in a TV show, and I wasn't aware that I was going to have to make some sort of statement. And before I knew it, they were calling me a homophobe. And I'd actually left the Mormon church because of the Prop 8 issue, but I was starring on a TV show with this character who was raised Mormon, so I didn't really make a statement. And I ended up getting canceled anyway. It was, yeah, the Marxists are just, yeah, they've taken over. I mean, I hate to sound so paranoid or bizarre, but it really is.
[14:56] No, no, it's not paranoid at all. No, it's, I mean, McCarthy was right. And, sorry, I know this sounds like a non-sequitur. Are you a younger sibling?
[15:04] I am, yes, I am a second sibling. I have an older brother.
[15:08] And is there anyone younger than you?
[15:10] Yes, there's two siblings younger than me.
[15:13] Okay, got it. God, I just, I've done the research that younger siblings, and what's, what's the age spread?
[15:19] Uh, my older brother's 13 months older than me.
[15:22] Right.
[15:23] And my little brother is about two years, uh, younger than me. And then my sister is about four years younger than me.
[15:29] Okay. Got it. Got it.
[15:31] And what was it, do you think that drew you to Marxism?
[15:34] I think it was academics. I was in an academic situation for six years straight until they finally got me. I was raised libertarian, and I was actually raised in an LDS neighborhood in Provo where the majority of my neighbors had fled from D.C. or they'd left D.C. From high-powered government jobs, and it was kind of a neighborhood of people that were kind of connected to the government. Whether it was on accident or on purpose, I don't know, but the majority of the friends I grew up with, their parents were either CIA members or politicians, or they had some sort of government status. So I was raised in this kind of bubble of people that were already in this fight between Marxism and liberty as a child. And I was literally raised in, I had scout leaders who told me things in the 90s that eventually occurred. And I mean, this was a Nobel Prize winning doctor who was informing this of these things and
[16:35] Of what things? You keep telling what things what occurred
[16:39] okay
[16:39] Uh so i was raised my father wasn't really around he was he was doing something else he he's a defense contractor so i barely know my father so one of my best friends his father was dr cecil jacobson the the famous doctor that invented amniocentesis and uh he was famous for being the baby maker i don't know if you remember that i don't know if it was so important in canada but uh he was uh prosecuted or he was never actually prosecuted for it but he was condemned for having 70 babies of his own of his own dna through his clinic
[17:15] wow
[17:16] so this is dr cecil jacobson right so when i met him he'd already fled dc he'd already been kind of under attack. And when I was probably 14 or 15, he was always telling us stuff. He was my scout leader.
[17:30] So he was always giving us information. He wasn't, I mean... he had two Nobel Prizes.
[17:34] So, I mean, I had a reason to listen to him.
[17:36] Okay, I'm so sorry. What got you, this is a long side quest. Tell me, emotionally, what was it that got you hooked on Marxism?
[17:45] Well, emotionally, it was because in order to succeed in the realm of the arts I was making, I pretty much had to move in that direction. And it was like a slow brainwashing, like class after class.
[17:57] No, no, but that's not emotionally. That's like, so did you just say, well, I have to mouth Marxism to get ahead and it wasn't an emotional thing?
[18:04] I did. Well, actually, I ended up believing it because there is another side of Mormonism where we believe like in a perfect society, it's going to be collective, right? So for us, we believe that the, what do we call it? What's the term for it? But the most godly way to live on Earth is to live in a collective society where everyone's participating. But obviously, you know, it couldn't be under duress, you know. So I had this thought in my head, you know, that I grew up in that, you know, communism can work, you know, if everybody's working towards the same thing and we have like homogenized thoughts. But when I was younger, I was also taught a very kind of libertarian point of view. I was taught about authoritarianism and how to spot the dangers of authoritarianism. My father gave me a copy of all sorts of books like Animal Farm, and he was a social scientist.
[18:58] So I was just kind of getting pulled between these two things anyway, even within the church. So emotionally, and when I saw that it would benefit me career-wise, it was easy to say the things I knew they wanted me to say. And, you know, I did all the reading. I was a very diligent student. And I knew what I could say in order to get attention. And I think that's what that pulled me down the road because it felt good to get attention through academics. And I think I misconceived that as like doing something right.
[19:27] Yeah, and I was probably one of the last free market people to even be able to go through university because I had older professors.
[19:34] I mean, my thesis advisor was in his 60s in the 90s.
[19:38] Correct.
[19:39] So I probably, you know, they were all about to be replaced by these sort of monstrous people ahead of time. So, okay. So, James, if you wanted to get us up to date on the alleged shooter.
[19:54] The alleged shooter? I mean, really, I'd...
[19:57] I'm sorry, this is just James coming in. Other James, yep.
[20:00] I appreciate it.
[20:01] Go for it. No worries. Hey, other James. Thank you for your cast earlier. So, again, all the caveats. Non-legal experts. Not familiar with the criminal proceedings, but we'll do our best. So the first court date, as everyone has seen, Tyler Robinson was on the 16th. The charges were read. He was declared indigent and was assigned a lawyer. Among other things, held without bail. And his next court date is the 29th of September so I started to answer the direct question that Stef asked me just like did he enter a plea no he's not entered a plea yet the next court date is a waiver hearing and my understanding of that is that the defendant has the right to waive what's called a preliminary hearing where they do tests to make sure it's basically in that question of do they have them dead to rights is there enough to go to trial sort of that kind of thing.
[20:57] The probable cause. That's basically the thing. The preliminary hearing tests whether there's probable cause to proceed trial. And then if they don't waive that, they go to the probable cause thing, the preliminary hearing. If they do waive it, then it goes directly to the district court, which is the arraignment court, the arraignment hearing or whatever you call it. And that is when the defendant actually enters the plea. So at the moment, Tyler has not entered a plea. um That's just sort of the state of things. And of course, him keeping silent, that's his right. You know, he is the alleged shooter, as Stef's pointed out, and is right to point out. Seems pretty solid, but, you know, of course, we don't know.
[21:40] We don't have all the evidence at hand.
[21:41] Sorry, what do you mean by seems pretty solid?
[21:44] Sorry, sorry, sorry. That's me opinionating.
[21:48] No, I'm not sure. Seems pretty solid is a bit ambivalent for me.
[21:53] Sorry, from what we've seen, like reports, like if everything they've said about him is true right then like all the stuff that the authorities have come back forward with thing I guess there is stuff around like some of the transcript stuff that they've put out which is like the chat logs they look a little strange so
[22:17] okay so he has not he's not entered a plea but he's certainly not said I did it
[22:23] That's right that's right and
[22:25] I assume he's not saying anything under advice of counsel, so I assume that. Okay.
[22:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I was saying. When I said it seems pretty solid, I meant the evidence that we've seen, or how much evidence have we actually seen? The statements that the authorities have been making, you know, if they're all true and, like, you know, backed up. If what they said is reflected in the evidence that they've gathered so far. That's what I meant, you know. But, of course, again, he's alleged You know, there'll be a trial if he enters. If he does enter a not guilty plea, it will be a trial. If he enters a guilty plea, then of course, we'll see where things go from there.
[23:04] Yeah, and of course, I would assume that, I mean, based on watching a couple of movies, I would assume that if they have him dead to rights, they'll say, we'll seek the death penalty if you go to trial. If you don't go to trial, we'll just do life in prison.
[23:16] Right, yeah.
[23:17] Because I mean, anybody can demand a trial for anything, and the question is, of course, I can think only 3% of things go through to the trial verdict, and that's because of all of this plea bargaining stuff, right? Now, of course, they may just go for the death penalty anyway, in which case it doesn't really do him any harm to have a trial. I guess it just delays things and all that kind of stuff. So if they just say, we're going to go through the death penalty no matter what, then his lawyer may say, well, you know, why not? But especially if he's ideological and wants to get his ideology out there in the world, then he may just decide to go for a trial. So then, you know, take the stand and be his rebellious self and get all of this stuff out into the world. And hopefully, you know, maybe he'd like want to get some other copycats again, assuming that this is his mindset and assuming that he's the guy. So we should see.
[24:06] Another thing I thought of, though, and I only saw whispers about this sort of thing. So this may just be like you know people just saying stuff because they can say stuff um so just take it with a grain of salt but if it's the case that people were saying you know saying that something's gonna happen to charlie kirk like they're saying ahead of time i think it was you know like you know charlie kirk dead at 31 that that that horrible stuff um if that means that there was a kind of conspiracy um you know and i mean i i didn't read that in the charges i don't think right i think there was just anti-just aggravated murder and like all that stuff so i don't know if you can add on to that you know like how easy that it is like if that's what the state would want to do
[24:50] Or if they feel conspirators and other people can do ahead of time and yeah all of that kind of stuff yeah for sure that's gonna
[24:56] Yeah i mean and that's it that could possibly be sorry go ahead no go ahead i was gonna say that that could be something to say you know the prosecution could use and say you know like leverage in terms of a plea deal it's like look you know we won't i mean maybe you'll get just life in prison or like you know 30 years until you die or something i don't know i don't know what what's good at this point like what kind of offer you would say if you work with us to uncover the larger conspiracy you know
[25:20] Right. Yeah i i think that the there'd be a quite a significant revolt against the government plea bargaining this this guy at all which is why he may end up going to trial but yeah hopefully in the process of all of that discovery they they find out everything else that's been influencing him and hopefully that will be i mean i don't understand obviously have a lot of hope for these things but uh yeah it'd be nice if they did actually find out how he got radicalized who was funding it and so on but uh we'll we'll see going forward we'll see going forward all right uh is there anything else that you wanted to mention about that
[25:53] No no that's uh all the court stuff is like you know all all stuff i'm just not familiar with so that's uh that's my understanding
[26:00] Alright uh so uh Thank you. Anti-vilification and Noah, if you guys want to unmute and, you know, we can, I guess, have a bit of a round table or a chat if there's other things Joel would want to talk about. I'd be happy to hear.
[26:14] Stefan, can you hear me?
[26:15] Sir, yeah.
[26:16] G'day, how are you going?
[26:18] Good, how are you doing?
[26:19] Good, good. Yeah, just hi to everybody else also in the chat. This is a very elite group right here. So I'd just like to let you guys know that. So, so important, every one of you. Um, so yeah, I would just like to add my little two cents to the, um, Charlie Kirk, um, sort of discussion, um, and something I've sort of been thinking about lately, um, which is, um, and I'd like to ask you about it, Stef, is, um, like, would Charlie Kirk have been shot if he was non-white? And because, uh, from my analysis, um, he was white. So therefore he, um, had his life devalued, in society's eyes and that kind of led to the response by what people refer to as the left or the wokies or whatever that kind of led to them sort of laughing it off whereas even if if Charlie Kirk was non-white and there's absolutely no way they would have laughed at it even if he said the identical things that Charlie Kirk had said throughout his career.
[27:29] And that even ties in, and even more traumatically, that ties in with the topic we were talking about earlier, which is about Erika Kirk's forgiveness of the murder, I see. So even she devalued Charlie's life to the point where she would get up in front of millions of people and forgive the killer for killing her husband. But in my opinion, I think, and I'd be interested to hear if you agree, Stef, if her husband was black, there's probably a significant less chance she would have done what she did and and and i think that
[28:10] so if her husband was sorry if her husband was black she would be less likely to forgive the killer?
[28:15] Yes because i think i think the reason that she forgave the killer was because uh like in that moment where she's like i forgive the killer she's sort of not really expressing Christianity, which was what you've been making the point a lot, which is fantastic. It's just so brilliant the way you shut down the Christian Stef. It was just...
[28:37] I'm not trying to shut down the Christians, honestly. It's not hostile to Christianity. I'm like...
[28:44] Exactly.
[28:44] But I was raised to read the Bible. I've read the Bible, and he says, you have to repent to be forgiven. God says you have to repent to be forgiven. There's no examples of God forgiving people without repentance. And so I'm like, how is this a thing? And, you know, I'm not trying to shut him down. I'm like, help me understand this.
[29:01] Yeah. It's because like the, the, what those people who are arguing with you were arguing for was actually anti-whiteism. They're not actually like they're, they're arguing a brand of Christianity, which isn't real Christianity. They're taught, they're sort of expressing, including Erika Kirk, which is so disappointing, but like what, what they're actually arguing for is cucked Christianities, anti-white Christianity, this idea that, you know, And so when Erika forgave the killer, she was sort of conforming with this anti-white narrative that says that white people have to forgive anything that ever happens to them immediately. And we have to sort of, rather than like project out and say, hang on, do you apologize for what you've done? Like rather than do that, which is actual Christianity, we sort of go back into our shell and say, well, what did we do to cause this?
[29:57] You know like oh no no i don't think she's doing i mean i don't think she's doing that i mean so i mean it's an interesting question about how much do how much of wokeism is anti-whitism and i know there's arguments that it is i think certainly think there's strong elements in it but uh you know i mean
[30:18] Candace Owens gets attacked a lot. Jesse Lee Peterson gets attacked a lot. And Milo, who's like, what, half Jewish and gay, you know, was one of the first people to be really savagely deplatformed. So I think in general, the left is like, okay, well, white males tend to be our enemies because, you know, small government, pro-free speech, you know, for whatever reasons. And so I think that they generally view white males as the enemy. And but i i think anyone who's identified as an enemy loses that loses that protection and so so the people who i mean so so for instance look at bill cosby right so one of the theories is that after the pudding speech uh after the speech where bill cosby was criticizing a black culture black community that that made it more likely for him
[31:09] he'd kind of lost the protection for his past the crimes that he was sent to jail for. And I know he got out, and I can't remember if it was a technicality or something like that. I don't think he was exonerated. But so they'll turn on him. So anyone who's a conservative they'll attack, is it more likely? I think it's generally because more conservatives tend to be sort of white males, or that's the impetus, or whites. I think that's the general trend, but it's certainly not the only thing. If Charlie was black and a white guy had shot him. I think obviously the results would be very different in terms of a protest and so on, but...
[31:48] And I do know, I've heard, although I don't know if it's true, but I've heard that every time there's sort of a white is murdered by a black and it sort of becomes public news, that there's quite a lot of pressure put on the white family to forgive immediately. And again, I don't know that that's been confirmed. I've sort of seen the rumor floating around that, you know, they get to sit down and, you know, you can't inflame tensions and you are Christians, you have to forgive. And I think there's a lot of that stuff. And again, just as a male, I find it repulsive. I find it clammy. It just feels like oily squid tentacles going up my spine. It just feels very manipulative and very destructive. And I don't remember a lot of Christians saying to the Ukrainians, well, you're being invaded, but you should just forgive. Or October 7th, well, you should just forgive. It just does seem to be, you know, whenever white males might get angry, it's, oh, forgive, got to forgive. There wasn't a whole lot of that in the summer of love in 2020, right?
[32:55] Yeah. Well, I'd like to touch upon how you said that, you know, white males are the prime target, seemingly, and then conservative non-whites seem to be sort of like lower on the scale, like because most conservatives are actually like white males. And the reason for that is because like conservativism, as we might call it, or Western civilizationism, you might sort of coin a phrase, that is because that is our natural like bio-spiritual like expression. That is our natural state. Like when you go to any Western country in the world, it's called Western because it's a community of white people who are living in the way that they instinctively know is the way that is going to create civilization. So the anti-whites know this. They know that white people just naturally create Western civilization and born out of jealousy because they're like, Other non-white races cannot create Western civilization as a natural expression. They can emulate it. I was talking with Drew Pavlou earlier about how Hong Kong is a really good example of a non-white group of people who actually mimic Western civilization.
[34:20] Well, and better. As you know, I marched with the anti-communists, took the festivals of tear gas, and they're doing a better job i think of opposing creeping socialism than the west
[34:31] yeah, I forgot about that that was that was amazing man it was just
[34:36] It was vivid, it was a vivid day i'll tell you that
[34:38] what was that?
[34:39] it was a vivid day for sure
[34:41] oh, vivid, yeah yeah those protests were wild how many people ended up getting like disappeared in that one?
[34:49] oh yeah well unfortunately um the mr lee the guy who wrote the constitution who i interviewed i think he he vanished into the gulags and it was yeah it's just a just a pawn
[35:00] my goodness my goodness it just shows like what a heroic effort you've done since the beginning
[35:05] Oh much i mean he's the one in danger not me
[35:07] well yeah
[35:09] sorry is there i know that we got a i don't want to have a super long show here because i actually have a call tonight a call and show tonight so if anybody else wants to get this sort of uh thoughts across i would I'd love to hear.
[35:20] All right. Thanks, Stef.
[35:21] Thanks, man.
[35:22] I just kind of wanted to get your take on, I've only seen snippets of the, I guess it was the funeral for Charlie Kirk. Do you have any just particular kind of general opinion on Trump's statement of the, you know, so Erika forgave, you know, in front of everyone, Charlie's killed.
[35:43] He's like, that's not me, right? That's the same thing with Miller, right?
[35:46] Yes.
[35:47] Yeah.
[35:48] Yeah i was just uh i was just curious on what you uh took on that i didn't i mean i've seen a lot of people say how maybe that Trump was of course stoking the flames or
[35:59] I mean like the idea like the idea that there's any such thing as stoking the flames from the right uh you know like i mean the left just i mean it's been what two weeks of like savage violence from the left or their proxies which is the guy who kept getting released from jail who murdered poor arena on the light train but yeah so the idea that trump is raising the temperature i mean good lord i mean that that's that's mad i mean this is what's always you know we get to shoot you but if you complain about it then you're inciting violence and you're you're raising the temperature like that that to me is this long in the history that that's not a thing anymore uh but but you know i mean again not to pick on Erika because i mean again her suffering is is immense but the women get to forgive because the men have to punish. So if the men took the pages out of the women's book, right? If the men of the state said, oh, you forgive him? Great. Then we don't need to arrest him. Then the women would be like, whoa, no, I don't mean that.
[37:04] So the luxury of being able to forgive is because the men don't get to forgive. The men have to punish. The men have to go risk their lives to arrest these guys, to jail them, to try them, to keep them in prison and so on. So to me, this female forgiveness stuff, it's just a luxury belief that sort of squats and sits around in the shadow of men not forgiving these criminals. So she can say, I forgive, I forgive. But if her forgiveness was mirrored by the men, then she would immediately start forgiving, right? So if, and again, sorry to repeat myself, but if the men said, oh, shoot, you forgive him? Well, okay. Then we're not going to pursue it, right? Because that's what happens sometimes with the police, right? So the police go to some domestic dispute and they say, let's say the guy hits the woman or whatever, right? And then the police say, do you want to press charges? And again, I'm no legal expert, but my understanding is if the woman says, I don't want to press charges, what happens? Nothing. They let him go. So if that was the case here, that if the men said to the women who are forgiving everyone all the time without the person having to repent, and repentance in this case would be to go to jail for the rest of your life or to submit to the death penalty. That would be repentance.
[38:27] And so these women are all saying, I repent, sorry, I forgive, I forgive, but only because they know that the men are going to go and not forgive. If their forgiveness meant, oh, you're not pressing charges?
[38:39] Okay, we'll let this guy go. Then they'd be like, whoa, no, no, no. We don't, right? So it's just a luxury belief because men are doing the heavy lifting. James, can you just try unmeeting and saying something? Because I'm not sure if we're still on.
[38:51] Yo, can you hear me?
[38:53] Yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay. I guess he kind of came and went.
[38:56] Yeah. My screen got stuck on only showing me and the other James as speakers. But I've been hearing those other guys. It's fine.
[39:03] Yeah, yeah. Good, good. All right. Anything else that anybody wants to mention? I'm glad the tech worked here. And it was nice to have a good old chat about this. And of course, if there's anything that you would like me to do differently or better or worse, maybe not worse. But if there's anything you'd like me to do differently, I'm always keen to hear your feedback. You can email support@freedomain.com. Support@freedomain.com. And I would love to hear your thoughts. And I think that's it. Then we'll stop here. And I appreciate everyone's time today. And we will talk tomorrow night for Friday Night Live. Oh, maybe I should try and get a splitter so that I could actually take calls from everywhere at all times under all circumstances. We'll see. We'll see. All right. Thanks, everyone. We'll talk to you soon. Bye.
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