0:03 - Introduction to Sensitive Topics
10:54 - The Complexity of Choice
34:04 - Consequences of Decisions
49:27 - The Role of Society in Reproductive Choices
54:14 - Personal Decisions in Parenting
55:50 - The Nuance of Abortion
57:23 - The Impact of Society on Relationships
58:30 - The Role of Religion in Morality
1:03:10 - The Complexity of Rape and Abortion
1:06:55 - The Responsibility of Fathers
1:09:02 - The Ethics of Abortion Choices
1:13:07 - The Emotional Toll of Abortion
1:15:01 - Prevention vs. Cure in Society
1:21:37 - The Importance of Data in Discussion
1:26:41 - The Need for Nuanced Conversations
1:35:16 - Prioritizing Children's Well-being
1:44:37 - Finding Common Ground in Debate
The debate begins with a light, friendly tone between Stefan and the caller, exploring their perspectives on contentious topics, particularly the issue of abortion. The caller mentions that they have been discussing these topics with his partner who has reservations about some of Stefan's views, specifically those presented in his 5001st episode on Roe v. Wade. This serves as an entry point to unpack differing views on abortion rights, personal freedom, and the complexities of unwanted pregnancies, particularly in the context of difficult situations such as incest and rape.
The conversation explores whether a life is truly unwanted or not if there are couples wanting to adopt, as Stefan argues that many unwanted babies find homes through adoption. This perspective prompts the caller to discuss the complexities surrounding foster care and adoption, highlighting that while many couples seek to adopt, the foster care system itself can be problematic. As the conversation progresses, they delve into the rights of both mothers and fathers regarding pregnancy and child custody. Stefan emphasizes that the woman has more decision-making power over the pregnancy than the man, which becomes a pivotal point in their discussion.
As they navigate the legal and moral landscapes surrounding abortion, they touch upon the harsh realities facing women, particularly in abusive relationships. The caller shares insights from studies that indicate how access to abortion can allow women to leave toxic relationships more easily. Stefan acknowledges this but argues that those women should ideally have better instincts to avoid such relationships in the first place. The dynamics of choice, responsibility, and the notion of 'veter' potential partners become central themes.
The conversation also highlights the tension between the societal perception of abortion and its implications on relationships and parenting. Both parties discuss how societal changes, particularly the laxity in sexual mores, have influenced decisions surrounding parenthood and stability. They ponder what changes in behavior might arise from the recent legal shifts regarding abortion rights, suggesting that women might become more discerning in their partner choices.
As the caller raises concerns about the simplistic nature of the abortion debate, Stefan responds by critiquing both extremes of the argument—the absolutists for and against abortion. They recall studies attempting to correlate higher rates of abortion with societal issues, highlighting a societal failure rather than simply an individual one. The caller argues for the necessity of compassionate discussions about the implications of abortion laws, especially regarding circumstances involving rape and incest, recognizing the complications therein.
A significant portion of the debate is devoted to examining the psychological and emotional aspects of abortion on women and the aftermath of such decisions. Stefan insists on the need for a social structure that encourages responsibility and makes child-rearing a commitment grounded in stable and loving partnerships. He urges for more empathetic societal norms that cater not only to individual freedoms but also to the welfare of children, advocating for a cultural shift that returns to the values of serious commitment before parenting.
The conversation concludes with both participants recognizing the importance of discussing these complexities and nuances, emphasizing a commitment to pursuing further dialogue about how society can better support families and reduce unwanted pregnancies. They glean mutual respect for the shared desire to see fewer abortions while philosophically navigating the complications leading to that dilemma. Overall, the conversation represents a thorough and thought-provoking exchange on two sensitive but crucial issues, reflecting the broader societal struggles with personal freedom, responsibility, and ethical decision-making regarding parenthood and reproductive rights.
[0:00] Hi stefan hello hello how's it going uh.
[0:03] Very good thanks for uh thanks for uh calling.
[0:06] It is always a great pleasure to speak you can throw off your video i'm just going to do audio uh if that's all right sorry so no it's no problem nice to meet you i guess we have one person who likes me and one person uh maybe in the middle but probably a little bit more towards dislike which is totally fine totally fine i don't take it personally it's just it's just philosophy and it's reaction so i'm.
[0:30] I'm i'm i have no hard feelings either way.
[0:33] Oh give me a chance i can create some hard feelings come on just have faith i can do it i feel i can do it.
[0:40] And i i appreciate you taking the call because i know that he's wanted to to call in for a while and i do really appreciate that.
[0:47] So yeah i appreciate that thanks very much now i know that we have some topics to talk about but is there anything in particular that you wanted to start off with.
[0:57] I guess since i did the call i might as well uh explain a little bit further we've been dating for about a year and three months now ish and um we've uh i've been listening to your show regularly weekly and i guess we've had some disagreements between the two of us on a few subjects i'm not sure if [x] wants, to elaborate but what do you think? Okay, so I guess the recent one was I guess we've got I've got some concerns with your 5001th episode which was the Roe and Wade.
[1:34] Thing that's been going on and I guess we had a disagreement, or maybe we're in agreement but she has some contention with some of your positions when it comes to abortion um i think we're both in agreement that we're fine with plan b and in the first trimester and it gets a little bit more difficult in second and third trimesters but [x] thinks maybe it's a bit hypocritical to say that uh with freedom but then there's no freedom for women's right to choose in a very difficult situation, such as incest, rape, or just unwanted pregnancies, because it would lead also to children that are unwanted and perpetuates a cycle of unwanted children and the ramifications that come from that.
[2:28] Well, I mean, just because the children are unwanted by the mother doesn't mean that they're unwanted, right? I mean, for every baby that is put up for adoption, there are 33 couples who want to adopt a baby. Because, you know, there's lots of couples who have issues with infertility and so on, or for whatever reason. And listen, this doesn't mean that this is some clincher to the argument, because there is still the issue of enslaving the woman to produce a baby, which is no small issue and all of that. I'm aware of that. But as far as a baby being unwanted, no. I mean, the babies who are born have huge lineups of couples to adopt the babies. And so I would just say unwanted by the mother, but that doesn't mean unwanted in general.
[3:17] And there's also a huge want for them within the foster care system as well. And I know, especially within the United States, the foster care system tends to be abused. Um and a lot of and this isn't true across the board obviously but a lot of people who are fostering children don't go through the same um well no fostering though as far as i understand i'm.
[3:43] No expert but isn't fostering different from like adoption at birth.
[3:46] That's a whole different.
[3:47] Sort of situation so let's just talk about the.
[3:49] Birth stuff not not all not all children are adopted at birth and a lot of them are put into the foster care system because it doesn't require the same amount of stringent approvals that a lot of the adoption process requires. And the person who is fostering also receives a handout from the government to foster.
[4:09] Yeah, that's right. And I mean, it can be the case that it's really tragic when this happens. Of course, it can be the case that the... Mother wants to raise the child or is looking forward to it, but for whatever reason, it could be addiction, it could be illness, it could be sort of any number of things. For some reason, the mother is unable to raise the child and then you get the foster situation. But I think if the mother has decided up front that she doesn't want to have to keep the child or, you know, that's, that's a terrible way of putting it because, you know, that's a horrible decision for the mom to make. But if the mom has decided...
[4:45] Or the father, of course. If the father doesn't want to keep the child. Because this isn't just the mother who has created the child. It's also the father who has created the child.
[4:52] Well, that's true. But the women have ultimate say in this, right? The woman can decide not to keep the pregnancy, I mean, in many states still, and in a lot of places in the world. And the woman can decide to keep the child. But the man doesn't have any rights in this area, right? I mean, the man can't say, I want to opt out of parenting, like you can have the kid, but I want to opt out of my parental responsibility. So the woman can kill the child or give the child up for adoption with very little say from the man, no say when it comes to abortion, but the man doesn't really have any reproductive rights in this area. I mean, the woman can have the child and then even if the man said, oh, it was an accident or the condom broke, or you said you couldn't get pregnant or you said you were on the pill, the man is then, well, financially, almost enslaved for 20 years, right? And, you know, hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars. And he actually can't.
[5:51] As the woman would be.
[5:53] Well, sure. But I'm talking about it's the woman's choice, right? If the woman chooses to keep the child and the man doesn't have a say in that.
[6:00] Well, the man chose to have the child, right?
[6:01] I'm sorry?
[6:02] In that situation, the man would have chosen to impregnate the woman, no?
[6:08] Ah, so you're saying that the man is responsible for the consequences of impregnation. It's not his body, his choice, even if he doesn't want the child.
[6:17] If he's engaging in sex, wouldn't he have an equal weight of responsibility there?
[6:21] Well, but he doesn't have the equal weight of choice because the woman can decide to keep the child and then the man is on the hook for child support for 20 years. But the man can't make that choice himself.
[6:33] Not in all cases.
[6:34] Well, almost all cases, right? I mean, certainly if the woman wants to get child support from the man, the state will enforce that, right?
[6:43] Not in all cases can.
[6:45] You give me examples where that wouldn't happen.
[6:49] Where the court decides that the man is either unfit for child support can't give child support um any any slew of reasons that the court would decide that but usually if the man does have money he would be on the line well no if.
[7:06] The man doesn't have money he's expected to produce it i I mean, men go to prison for not producing child support. It's the only place in American law. It's the only place like they got rid of debt, debt is prisons many decades ago. You can't go to jail for a debt, except, you know, with the one instance of child support payments. Then if the man doesn't produce the child support payments, he can literally be jailed. And then it becomes very hard for him to get a job afterwards. But sorry, go ahead.
[7:37] But then what happens to a woman if she decides not to support her child and to keep the child but not to support the child wait to keep the child but to not support the child what do you mean yeah to have the child and keep the child but to not financially support the child in any way.
[7:59] I'm sorry i'm not.
[8:00] Again i'm sorry i just want to make sure i understand what you.
[8:02] Mean do you Like start of the.
[8:03] Child's death? Yeah, not provide for the child, not give to the child, would the woman be liable to consequences for that?
[8:11] If the woman decides not to support the child, the woman has a near infinite array of options, right? So if the woman decides, like, I don't want to have this child, I don't want to pay for this child, I don't want to have anything to do with this child, then she can drop the child off at any hospital or fire station or police station, and the child will be taken from the mother, no questions asked. And she is no longer has any responsibility for that child. She can give the child up to any social service or sort of government, uniformed official or whatever.
[8:45] Yeah.
[8:46] And she's completely off the hook.
[8:47] That wasn't my question. That wasn't my question, though. If a woman was to keep the child and not support the child, you know, not provide to the child and still kept the child, would she be liable for child endangerment, for any consequences?
[9:03] You mean if she starved the child?
[9:05] Yeah.
[9:06] Sure.
[9:06] Yeah, if she did not provide for a child that she produced and kept.
[9:12] Well, no, because if she decides not to provide for the child, she can give the child up for... Of course, I'm doing a hypothetical situation.
[9:23] I guess what she's saying is if it was neglected. Yes. Is that what you're saying? To outline how there is still a parallel in what is expected of what a mother would provide and what the father figure would provide if he was out of the picture now of course it's not the same in all circumstances but there is an expected duty of care to a mother if she, is having a child yeah.
[9:48] Of course if you keep.
[9:48] The child right if you if you keep.
[9:51] The dog you got to feed the dog otherwise you're guilty of animal.
[9:53] Cruelty right exactly and that would take resources.
[10:01] Correct well yes for sure for sure and and the woman but.
[10:04] The woman can choose to keep.
[10:05] The child or not regardless of what the man says right.
[10:09] And the man can choose to be there raising the child or not no no hang on in terms of in terms.
[10:17] Of resource provision right so the woman if.
[10:20] She doesn't.
[10:21] Want to pay for the child, she can drop the child off at any place and the child will be taken into the system or taken care of or put out for adoption or foster care. So the woman can reject her responsibilities, or I wouldn't say reject necessarily, but the woman can decide not to spend any money to pay for the child, right? To drop the child off.
[10:43] And the man could also, conversely, choose to raise the child on his own.
[10:50] No, no, hang on. We want to talk about parallel situations here, right?
[10:55] So the woman can decide not to raise the child and she's off the hook, right?
[11:06] Mm-hmm.
[11:08] Is that, do we sort of share? I'm not trying to sort of win a point here or catch something out, because, I mean, we're obviously, you know, trying to find really good answers to these challenging questions, right? But the woman can say, I don't want to be a parent anymore, and can then stop becoming a parent at will, right?
[11:26] Mm-hmm.
[11:28] But the father can't.
[11:30] Well, you're speaking only financially, in some cases.
[11:35] Well, only financially. If you're faced with jail for not paying bills, and sometimes there are recessions, maybe the father doesn't want to get vaccinated and is facing job issues. Maybe there's particular issues in the industry. Maybe there's lots of competition from, I don't know, China or India or something. So there are times where it's tough for the man to pay the bills. And so saying it's only financial is, I mean, that's that's a pretty big that's a pretty big thing.
[12:06] I mean, I mean that the father wouldn't actually have to be in any way a part of the child's life beyond providing support.
[12:16] Well, okay, let's go back to the parallel situations. So, the woman can decide to unparent, right? She can decide to stop being a parent and have no further obligations, financial or legal or emotional or time or anything like that, right? The man does not have that right.
[12:37] Well, the man does have the right to not be a part of his child's life.
[12:42] No, he doesn't.
[12:43] In the emotional, physical way.
[12:45] No, he doesn't have because he still has to pay, right? I mean, sometimes, I mean, you know, some of these child support payments can get pretty sky high, right?
[12:54] That's not caring for the child in the day in, day out.
[12:59] Yes, but I'm not talking about that. I'm saying, hang on, I'm saying that the woman, hang on, I'm saying that the mom, the mom can choose to stop being a mother and stop supporting the child. The man does not have that right or that possibility.
[13:12] And is a citizen residing in that country, correct?
[13:16] Well, no, let's not overcomplicate it. I mean, again, I'm not trying to win points. I'm sure there's stuff that we can discuss.
[13:21] It's not in every single case. It's not clear cut.
[13:23] No, it's pretty clear cut. The man doesn't have the opportunity to say, listen, I don't want to be a father anymore. So I'm ceasing all of my legal and financial responsibilities to the child. He does not have the right to say that. Okay. Okay do i mean do we agree on that, sure you you sound like i'm trying to corner you so i mean i'm not trying to win a point here i'm just trying to deal with the facts here right i.
[13:56] I just know that there that that's not true across the board and that there are situations in which it's not, completely true so.
[14:05] For the most part i'd like to hear of a situation i'd like to hear of a situation where a man can say i don't want to pay child support anymore and has no legal like he can sign a document and saying i relinquish all blah blah blah and then he doesn't have to pay child support anymore i'd never heard of the situation but i'm happy to be educated if.
[14:23] A man isn't a legal resident somewhere if he's not a citizen and he decides to no longer stay within the country then he would not be necessarily legally held to that.
[14:35] Well no it's just that he couldn't be i mean he would be it's just that i i get that if he moves to bora bora then you can't, you can't get the money from him i mean i know this because my father uh you know left shortly after i was born and he went to africa and i mean it was pretty tough to get cash out of him but that's not because he didn't have responsibilities that was simply because they were you couldn't enforce them because of the disparate and distant legal system.
[15:04] So it's not necessarily always enforceable as you know not that it's not.
[15:09] No no i get that but he he he the woman doesn't have to go to africa to give up her parental responsibility she can just drop the child off at a fire station right so so it is certainly true that if you leave the country and go to some place without an extradition treaty and without complementary reciprocal legal agreements. And, you know, if you go to Bora Bora, then I guess you could escape your responsibilities. But I mean, come on, that's not, the woman doesn't have to leave the country. I mean, we can at least understand that this is not the same situation, right?
[15:41] I'm sorry, I didn't mean to touch on a sensitive subject. I didn't know the situation with your father.
[15:48] I'm sorry.
[15:49] Oh, my dad left 55 years ago.
[15:50] Trust me, it's not a sensitive subject for me. He was never around. So, no, no, but I'm just saying that the woman doesn't have to leave the country, and the man, I guess, in this scenario does have to leave the country, which means that there's still not equality in the situation, right? Now i sort of feel like we're not trying to because you seem to be kind of upset that i'm making any valid points and and what that means no i'm not at all let me finish that's not particularly how i like to have these conversations doesn't mean you have to conform to anything that i want but i'm just saying that if we have a mutual exploration of truth uh where we're like trying to come to good conclusions and so on i think that's a good thing if it's like well you know but if he goes to Bora Bora he's you know he can abandon his responsibilities or whatever that seems kind of nitpicky you know that the general principle being that the woman can give up her parental rights but the man can't.
[16:46] I see why you say that and it's not that I'm upset that you're making a point I am open to that I'm just making an attempt to explore.
[16:56] Is it a true statement that the woman can give up her parental responsibilities and the man generally can't?
[17:02] Well parental up to the point that she has the baby yes parental in that she has to care for and carry the baby to term without any complications that's a responsibility that is still parental and she cannot give off.
[17:19] Sorry um let me just make sure i understand what you're saying so you're saying so i was talking after birth right.
[17:26] Well but but before and after birth is still part of parenting i mean i agree i agree.
[17:34] I agree um but.
[17:35] Obviously the woman cannot the woman cannot.
[17:38] Drop off a 12-week-old fetus at a i mean we have to sort of work within the realm of reality right and when we can't drop off a 20-week-old fetus at a at a.
[17:48] Bus station or at a police station to survive outside of the womb at that point okay so we're.
[17:54] Talking after the baby is born when.
[17:57] When it's possible to to have a duty of care go ahead yeah we're talking so you go ahead okay sure thank you um up to the point of the woman actually being able to have the baby she would not be able to give up her parental responsibilities of caring for that baby within her meaning that she she would be liable for criminal charge if she was to have any sort of drug any anything that would potentially harm the child. And that is a duty of care to the child within her as a parental figure up to the term where the baby is born, that she would not be able to give up.
[18:38] So are we talking about the Roe v. Wade thing where the decision for the legality of abortion is returned to the states? Is that right? Yeah.
[18:50] In which respect?
[18:52] I'm sorry?
[18:54] In which respect? I'm just talking about an extension of our previous conversation.
[19:00] Okay, so because we need to, if we're talking about after birth, then we're talking about parental rights where the child can be moved, right? But when we're talking before birth, the only options are to kill the fetus or to come to term, bring the baby to term. Is that right?
[19:17] Yes, and if the woman doesn't have the option to terminate a pregnancy, she would have a legal responsibility as a parent to take that baby to term, which is also a financial responsibility. She might not be able to work. She might not be able to do an assortment of different things. It is a responsibility that you would legally have, similar to how a man would legally have to provide financially to a child after it's born. That is something you would not be able to terminate.
[19:51] Yes. So, okay. I just want to make sure. So, because we were talking about the after, and now we're in the realm of Roe v. Wade, and let's just say you're in a place where abortion has become illegal, right? Some state. I just want to make sure we're talking in the same arena, if that makes sense. Okay. So earlier, though, you said that a man must be responsible for the choice to have sex, right? Well, in particular, unprotected sex.
[20:18] Well, equally responsible. So if it's two people that are genuinely choosing to have sex with each other, the men would have as much responsibility there as the woman would have.
[20:31] No, but we just established that there's different levels of responsibility for men and women after the child is born, in that the woman can give up being a parent, but the man can't.
[20:40] But the woman cannot give up being a parent while the child is in the womb.
[20:45] No, no. Hang on, hang on. Sorry, sorry. I understand that. I understand that. We're on the same page as far as that goes. But we've already accepted that men and women have different levels of responsibility after the child is born, right? We agreed on that, right? That the woman can give up well actually women are also liable.
[21:04] To child care if the child is in the man's custody.
[21:07] I'm sorry we just i feel like i'm trying to make a point and you're kind of jumping on i know so just if we could just let each other talk and it'll be a wonderful discussion i promise.
[21:20] Okay can i finish my point please.
[21:22] Well i was in the middle of finishing a point but making a point but go ahead.
[21:28] So if the child is in the man's custody after birth, since that is the only level of parenting that we are taking into consideration here, if the child is in the man's custody, the woman is also responsible for child support payments if she is working and has the ability to do so.
[21:48] Yes um as far as i understand that is i mean it's a very very very tiny minority of of the cases but yeah i mean if if the man is the primary caregiver and the woman is working then but i mean certainly for the baby that is in general to the significant detriment of the baby because babies do much better with breastfeeding and if the woman is working and the man is staying home so, So.
[22:12] It would be best if the child is raised from the womb by the mother or by somebody who's breastfeeding.
[22:21] Well, yeah, the mother, hopefully, because I think there's a good compatibility.
[22:24] And it would be the detriment of the child to be given to a stranger who is not breastfeeding.
[22:29] Well, no, I mean, that's a kind of, so, I mean, we're kind of jumping all over the place, which is fine. But as far as what's best for the child in general, I mean, and very statistically and specifically, what's best for the child is to be raised in a two-parent household that's stable and monogamous and, you know, hopefully married or has some level of commitment that's similar. So, you know, the kids who are raised in a single-parent household tend to do much worse than children raised in two-parent households. So, yeah, what's best? And I think in general, eye contact, breastfeeding, skin on skin contact and so on, breastfeeding has been shown to add IQ points and create wonderful immune systems and all kinds of juicy stuff that, you know, we evolved to do. So, yeah, I think that's the best environment.
[23:17] Yeah, I absolutely agree with you there. And I think we also agree that that parenting should be a very conscious choice. It should be something that's done very consciously, done carefully, done with great care, done with great preparation.
[23:35] Yes, I mean, it's the second biggest decision you make in your life after who you choose to marry. So, yes, I certainly agree with that for sure. So if we go back to the Roe v. Wade thing, I don't like any government involvement in reproduction. Just so you know, I'm not a government guy. I'm sure that you've heard governments violate the non-aggression principle, which is you should not initiate force against others. So whatever solutions that are imposed by the state, I tend to find just terrible. And so the idea of harassing women, arresting women, throwing women in jail for attempting to terminate a pregnancy, I consider an abhorrent solution to a complex problem. So I'm not cheering on the Roe v. Wade decision. On the other hand, I think that not having any positive social interventions in trying to save the life, if it's possible, right, trying to save the life of a fetus, I think is also pretty, pretty bad. I mean, as you know, the vast majority of abortions occur not because of any particular medical reasons, not because of rape, not because of incest, but because of inconvenience or personal choice or particular preferences and so on.
[24:53] Or the ability to raise a child.
[24:56] Whether it be financial.
[24:58] Whether it be emotional.
[24:59] I get that. But, you know, when we live, and I can completely understand that in the past, but, you know, we live in the modern world where you can get condoms for free at any health clinic. Women have access to 18 different forms of birth control. There's, you know, there's oral sex. There's lots of things that you can do for sexual activity and enjoyment that don't involve semen to egg at the right time of the month kind of thing. So as far.
[25:26] As birth control is not completely effective.
[25:29] Well, it's pretty effective. I mean, it's it's very effective. I mean, if you combine birth control, but if you combine the pill with a condom, there's no way. I mean, that's like the second coming.
[25:42] But also not a woman can be on the pill.
[25:45] Yeah, I understand that. And that's why there are 18 different forms of birth control.
[25:50] Mm-hmm. And yet, all of those together are still not completely effective.
[25:57] Well, how do we know?
[26:01] There have been studies done. And I think also some people are unreliable. They can't control their birth cycle. How would you control your birth cycle?
[26:10] Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean.
[26:11] Well, they're not going to use birth control because they're not thinking.
[26:17] Well, now, but that's a different matter, right? That's the, oops, I forgot, or whatever it is, right? I forgot to take my pill or something like that. But, I mean, that's a different matter. That's not a case of birth control not working. That's a case of the person not doing, like, not following instructions, right? That's no problem. No, but for people who don't want to, I mean, I've had, I don't know, thousands of conversations with people on this course of the show, and many of them have been involved pregnancy. And every single time, this is not statistics, this is not data, but I've had a pretty wide set of conversations with people about this. And every single time, every single time we talk about the whoops, pregnancy, there was a very, very good reason why it happened. Every single time. Right? Oh, I got pregnant. I didn't think I could get pregnant, but I turned out to get pregnant. Were you having unprotected says? Yes, I was. If the man is using a condom, do you check the condom that it's not broken before ejaculation? Well, you should, right? I mean, if that's your only thing, right? Or women who've been told by their doctorate they have low odds of pregnancy but still continue to have unprotected sex even though they still have the equipment that appraise. So just in my experience, I've not had anyone who has said that there was an unplanned pregnancy that wasn't engaging in risky behavior.
[27:45] Sure. But what happens to those people who engage in risky behavior? They have to face the music, don't they? And then have to give birth to the child now in these states.
[27:59] Well, I'll be very brief about this, but there's this whole area of study of human decisions called public choice theory. And it says, like, so for instance, right, that the welfare state back in the 60s was supposed to eliminate poverty, but it hasn't eliminated poverty at all. Why? because if you give people more money, fewer people want to escape from poverty. So, and you've seen legions of these posts all over social media where women are saying, that's it. You know, if there's no Roe v. Wade, I'm done with hookup sex. A man is going to have to be stable and reliable and financially independent and hardworking in order for me to, I'm done with this hookup culture. I'm done with casual sex because Roe v. Wade has made it too difficult and too risky to just go bang some tattooed drunken whatever hot guy with abs and a motorbike and and no t4 right so when when the environment changes people change their decisions i mean up here in canada they cut in the 90s they cut welfare and they could track this very easily people just went oh okay i'll just get a job because you know welfare was paying way more than jobs were and so when they lowered welfare to below jobs people just went and get jobs now it's not a hundred percent solution but in the roe v wade situation people will simply change their they will engage in less risky activities because the consequences will be stronger well.
[29:28] There there's also the issue of underage sex and children who do not have access to not only information but to any measures to control birth so no access to condoms no access to sex education no access to any of these things but are still young enough to make impulsive decisions.
[29:53] I'm sorry despite not having sorry i'm sorry i'm sorry to interrupt but i'm just a little confused i mean isn't there a lot of sex education in schools.
[30:02] Um there are in certain schools but in a lot of areas that are more um traditionally christian there's very restricted sex education and the primary sex education is abstinence um and a lot of the information is withheld from from younger children.
[30:25] What information as all of that.
[30:29] How exactly pregnancy happens, the mechanics of it, how to prevent pregnancy.
[30:36] Oh, no, but if they're Christians, the parents would be talking about, I can tell you that for sure. I mean, I know a lot of Christians. So the Christians will sit down and talk about the birds and the bees and how conception occurs and what pregnancy is.
[30:47] It depends on the parents. It truly depends on the parents. And also, what about people that are more promiscuous because Because they come from broken homes or situations where they are going to engage in sex at an early age.
[31:02] Well, hang on. So we've got two separate situations here. One is a lack of education and the other is promiscuity. So I don't want to conflate the two.
[31:13] Sorry. Yes. And not only a lack of education, but also a lack of access to resources like condoms, like contraception. And cases where the child is unable to obtain that on their own, of their own volition.
[31:34] Now, I don't know what the laws are, but I mean, I remember being a teenager and being able to get condoms no problem. I'm not sure what, is it illegal to buy condoms if you're under 21 or 18 or something?
[31:47] It it may be severely punished by very traditional families to have condoms to, if it was found it would be something considered contraband if it was found in in certain school settings it would be punished oh but the child and the child.
[32:05] Could buy condoms if they want is that right the teenager.
[32:08] I i i don't know if there are any restrictions on that And I'm not sure if they're... And I know that you're of the belief that it's going to change in the future, the behavior of people. But right now, we have a lot of promiscuity going in society. And I feel like these people, young and old, are going to make brash, rash, stupid, unprotected sex decisions.
[32:30] Well, but for, I mean, for almost all of human beings. Evolution and history. I mean, the problem of teenage sexuality is as old as, I mean, gosh, I mean, it goes into the primates, right? I mean, of which we are a particularly bald version. So the problem of teenage hormones and teenage sexuality has been around since the dawn of time, and most societies have dealt with it in a fairly productive manner. I mean, to find some way to restrain and focus wanton teenage sexuality. But of course, the worst thing you can do if you want to have people make better decisions, the worst thing you can do is take away the consequences of those decisions. I mean, this is parenting. I mean, I would say parenting 101 sounds kind of annoying and condescending, but if you continually take away all negative outcomes.
[33:23] Of bad decisions, people just make more and more bad decisions. I mean, you can see here in Canada, this is true in America too as as the government gives more health care for free people just make worse health care choices I mean they just get fatter and you know they don't exercise and because they're not paying for anything and in you know when unemployment insurance came in people just quit their jobs more because right so if you just take away the negative consequences of bad decisions then people just statistically from what I've seen and certainly this is true in my own personal life. People just make worse and worse decisions. So saying, well, there's a lot of promiscuity and therefore we have to allow for abortion.
[34:04] It could be a reversal of the cause and effect. Could be. I can't prove it, obviously. It's a possibility that the reason we have a lot of promiscuity is in part because of the prevalence of abortion.
[34:19] The prevalence of what? Sorry.
[34:20] I'm sorry, the prevalence of abortion. And so what you would do, of course, is you would look at, I don't know, like the 1950s. And of course, it's very tough to measure. But what was the prevalence of abortion before 1973? And I've heard a bunch of different data and so on. But we're in the realm of consequentialism, which is, I mean, it's real challenging because I can make up a scenario where teenage sexuality becomes more restrained and more focused as the result of abortion becoming harder to obtain. You can, and you could very reasonably, and I wouldn't deny you this capacity at all, you can create a situation where the repeal of Roe v. Wade results in really terrible things happening. And so this is consequentialism, and it is a form of magical thinking, although I think we should explore it, because we really should make our decisions based upon morality, particularly what involves life or death in this particular situation. In other words you know like back when they were trying to abolish slavery there were people who said well you know gosh if we don't have slaves nobody will be able to pick the food or the fruit or the cotton and we'll all freeze to death and starve to death and other people were like no no wonderful things will happen and that's consequentialism but you know the real question is is slavery moral or not and that's slavery hasn't.
[35:42] Really been done away with.
[35:44] But But formal human beings owning human beings, slavery has been abolished. Now we're, you know, we get to choose our own occupations, get taxed to death. But in terms of direct human ownership.
[35:55] Whether or not we have a child.
[35:56] I'm sorry?
[35:57] And would also consequently be able to choose whether or not we have a child.
[36:02] But you can choose whether or not you have a child.
[36:06] Well, I can not living in a place where it's illegal, but people who live in a place where it's illegal may be in a situation where they do not have a choice.
[36:15] Oh no, you can absolutely choose whether or not to have a child because you can engage in sexual activity that doesn't result in conception.
[36:22] So people always choose whether or not to engage in sexual activity.
[36:29] Well, if we're talking choice, yes. If we're talking rape, then they did not choose that, right? If we're talking about whether people can choose to have a child, if they're in a situation of choice, well, sure, they can choose.
[36:41] Yeah, I'm talking about situations in which there wouldn't be a choice.
[36:46] So we're talking rape and so on?
[36:48] Yeah.
[36:49] Okay, so rape is what? I think it's about 2% of pregnancies. And also, of the women who are raped...
[36:58] Is that pregnancies carried to term?
[37:02] I honestly don't know. I don't think so. I don't think at all.
[37:05] I'd be curious to see what that statistic is and where that comes from.
[37:11] Okay. I mean, I don't think it's pregnancies carried to term. I think it's from a... Oh, no, actually, I know what it is. This is pregnancies that are aborted because there have been a number of questionnaires. I think it was 1.9% or something like that of the women who said, I'm aborting the baby because I was raped.
[37:30] And what is this based on?
[37:33] Surveys of people coming in for abortions.
[37:36] Surveys done by whom?
[37:39] What? I don't know. What does that matter?
[37:42] I'm curious to read and to learn.
[37:45] Well, look, it doesn't hugely matter. I mean, in terms of the exact numbers or who did it, but it's a very low percentage. And of course, of the women who are raped, 80% of them are raped by someone that they know.
[37:57] And that makes it okay?
[38:00] I'm sorry, are we just going to get completely antagonistic here? Do you think that I'm trying to justify rape? No, listen, how much are we going to fight here? I want to know. Because if you think that I'm saying something in order to justify rape, then we can't have a civilized conversation because it's an abhorrent thing to say.
[38:15] Well, I'm wondering why that would be a category of rake that is minimized.
[38:25] Did I minimize it?
[38:30] Well, I'll let you finish saying what you're saying.
[38:33] No, no, no, no. Let's back up here.
[38:34] I mean, maybe I'm wrong.
[38:35] I need to know how antagonistic we're going to get. Because if it's just going to be like, if we're mutually trying to solve problems, I think that's great. But if you're going to try and have me wear a mantle of justifying or minimizing rape, then that can't be a fun conversation. And it won't be productive, right?
[38:52] Well, I'm just asking questions.
[38:53] Have I? No, no. Come on. Come on. That's not an innocent question at all. I haven't done that to you. Have I impugned any negative motives for you?
[39:04] I'm not saying you have any negative motives.
[39:06] Of course you are. You said, does that mean it's less important justifying or minimizing a woman getting raped? You don't think that's a negative statement?
[39:13] Well, if the woman is raped by somebody she knows, does that imply that she is making a choice to be raped by that person? What is that implying?
[39:23] See you can ask the question but if you start painting on minimizing or justifying that's a pretty horrible thing to say.
[39:30] Well you had a very strong reaction to that question so maybe i should yeah because it's an appalling thing why i'm asking i'm not accusing you i'm asking a question okay.
[39:40] Well you are accusing me.
[39:42] Because that's not come on that's.
[39:45] Not an innocent question.
[39:46] Are you justifying right this is a neutral question that's not what i said, that's not at all what i said and i don't intend to be argumentative i don't intend to accuse you of anything i'm wondering what the implication is of a woman being raped by somebody she knows oh yeah well i can answer that responsibility in that what is what is that implying no.
[40:13] No no In terms of responsibility, no. The woman who's being raped is always a victim, and it's always abhorrent, and the man should be jailed for life. But the issue is that if it's someone you know, then it's slightly more avoidable. This doesn't place any moral responsibility on the woman for being the victim, but it's slightly more avoidable.
[40:34] Well, how would you define that? How could it be more avoidable if it's somebody that you know?
[40:42] Well, okay, so let's say it's date rape, right? Okay, so if it's date rape, then it's possible, though the man could be some perfect chameleon who has absolutely no signs of his violent and criminal nature. But if it's date rape, then if the woman ended up going back to a man's place, maybe she was drunk, maybe he was drunk, she doesn't know him very well, These are risky situations. This doesn't mean that the man, it doesn't mean that the rape is any less horrible. It doesn't mean the man should spend any less time in jail. And it doesn't mean that the woman is responsible for being raped. But it's kind of like this. If I decide to walk down a bad neighborhood, dressed in a very expensive suit with a very expensive watch, ruffling my money in the air, then whoever robs me is absolutely wrong. And it's absolutely wrong. And I'm still the victim. But it's slightly more avoidable than if somebody breaks into my house in the middle of the night.
[41:44] So just within this line of thought if it's somebody a woman knows maybe it's a parent maybe maybe it's well.
[41:55] That would be.
[41:55] A member of the family yeah that would be and rape as well but that would be and there isn't a clear line between them and that's something that is largely, much, much more, much harder to avoid than.
[42:13] Say, if you were to go out and... Well, yes, but I understand. But we can't just switch categories like this.
[42:19] It's not a category switch. Rape happens within intimate living situations.
[42:25] So I'm talking about situations where it may be slightly more possible to avoid the situation, and you say, well, here's a situation where it's not, which I completely agree with. But the rape and the incest are two separate categories in the analysis of abortion. So, for example, in the questionnaire... Sorry, you go ahead.
[42:45] But there isn't a clear-cut line between them. So it can be both rape and incest, or it can be incest or rape. So there can be consensual sex between two people who are related to each other, which is incest. Or there could be non-consensual sex between people who are related to each other, which would be rape.
[43:06] But there are, I mean, just because there's some overlap doesn't mean that there's no, that it's all an overlap, right?
[43:13] But there is a distinction between just incest and incest that is forced. And in most situations where it is incest, there is some level of coercion. Whether or not it is deemed to be rape is a gray zone that a lot of courts don't go.
[43:36] And I'm sorry, I'm a little, I don't really quite follow some of these categories. So are you talking about sex between a brother and a sister when they're adults? That's consensual?
[43:49] I'm talking about any consensual sex between people who are related and are of age and able to make that decision.
[44:01] Yes, but I think I don't want to speak for you. My perspective would be that any sex between blood relatives when they're adults would be almost certainly the result of pedophilia or child rape or sexual assault when they with children, because you just wouldn't grow up wanting to have sex with members of your own family, which is pretty abhorrent to just about every section of the animal kingdom, unless you had been exposed to perverse sexual practices as a child.
[44:31] I'm sure. And I'm sure that people who grow up and rape people that they're not related to, also do so as a result of abhorrent childhoods and potentially having been abused themselves and that there could be a confluence of different things in their past that could lead them to make that decision.
[44:51] Yes, yes, yes. So with regards to whether you know the man or not, I mean, one of the things that I've continually talked to women about in my show is, you know, here are the warning signs, here are the red flags, here are the things to look out for, here are the situations to avoid and so on. Because, I mean, you and I would love it if the world was less filled with rape. I mean, not that it's massively filled with rape, but we would certainly like to reduce it anywhere humanly possible. So, as far as that goes, trying to educate women and men, of course, who get raped as well and in significant numbers. But anything we can do to point out red flags and don't get involved in these situations, don't go home with a guy you just met, don't meet a guy at his place off Tinder and so on. These are, I think, good things that would be street proofing for women. Sorry, go ahead.
[45:47] I also wonder about what the other side of that, in that, what are we teaching boys and what are we teaching men to prevent them from, and also women, from preventing them from making damaging decisions like to rape another human? What is it that we're street-proofing them against? How are we educating them to make better choices, to not be coercive?
[46:22] I'm sorry, I'm not sure if that's a rhetorical question, and I don't mean that in any mean way or negative way. I'm not sure if that's a rhetorical question or something you want me to jump in on.
[46:31] You could take it either way.
[46:33] Yeah. So, I mean, for me, what we need to expose children to is, you know, mature adult loving relationships, the sort of two parent household and so on. The traditional, you know, doesn't have to be traditional, but in general, the sort of just statistically the father and the mother, because if a boy and a girl or both grow up in a situation where the father and the mother are.
[46:56] Loving and gentle and kind and thoughtful with each other than, I mean, barring some bizarre brain tumor or some brain damage or something like that, it's inconceivable to me that the child would then grow up to be a rapist or something like that, any more than a child who's never exposed to Japanese ends up speaking Japanese somehow, right? So I think that, you know, where we keep the family as solid and central as possible, we do as much as we can to reinforce the the pair bonding, monogamy, child's raising, and so on, because I do think that if a boy, if more men rape than women, of course, if the boy grows up without seeing that, seeing maybe he's got a single mom and there's a succession of nasty, creepy guys going through the place, then he's going to get the wrong impression of masculinity and so on. So I think as much as we can promote this sort of modeling, I think in general, men and women are predestined to peace and it takes a fair amount of negative stimuli to make them more aggressive, if not downright violent. So I don't think, I mean, I think if the children have healthy, positive relationships modeled for them, I think that's the way they'll go.
[48:11] Yeah, we absolutely agree there. I just see that when people are having children before they're ready, the child will likely grow up in an environment that is not as pair-bonded It's not as healthy The parents aren't able to devote as much attention and as much time to the child as they might be able to if it was something that they were able to plan for.
[48:42] Well, again, it's very easy to plan for, and I think if we can just focus on the choice situation, right? The criminal stuff we can discuss, and I think we have, and that's sort of, to me, a separate category. But it is very easy to plan to have children. I mean, I dated lots of people, didn't have any children until I was happily married, and now have been for like 20 years, and I've been a stay-at-home dad, and it's all been great. So, it's pretty easy to not have kids if you don't want kids. And I guess somewhat of my concern is that people just become less focused on prevention when there's this abortion stuff around.
[49:28] Do you think that people should have access to abortion if there is criminality involved?
[49:36] I mean i will i will tell you my solution because i i don't like again as i said i don't like the whole government thing at all so i think that we should try to have a society look i know this sounds really pompous and annoying and i know that we agree on it and it sounds almost useless to say so just give me a sec though i think that we should have a society that promotes birth that promotes keeping the fetus alive as much as humidly possible. Now, if a woman...
[50:08] Does the right stuff, but just gets pregnant, then to me, you know, one of the big barriers, and you sort of said this earlier, I'm not trying to catch you. I just trying to catch in on something you said that I agree with. You said, well, the foster parents get money, right? So I think one of the problems, it's really, really tough and expensive and difficult for a woman to, you know, to be pregnant, sorry, to be pregnant, to give birth and so on.
[50:34] And so what i like is the idea that the woman can be compensated by couples who want the baby, i mean we have this in terms of surrogacy there is this aspect of surrogacy and so i for me i think that in a truly free society i think that we should provide every possible incentive for the woman to give birth if the woman doesn't want to give birth i would not throw her in jail but and we don't have unfortunately we don't have a society it's all it's all sticks and no carrot it's all like when you go to jail if you there's none of this how how great can we make it for the woman to give birth because i mean i don't know if you've talked to people i'm sure you have but who've had abortions but it's pretty rough on the heart right i mean it's pretty rough on the soul to to have the the dnc or to have the operation and take the life out there's always that what if you know there's that oh this would have been his birthday and and so on particularly if you end up not having kids for whatever reason. You just can't find the right guy. You can't settle down and, you know, sail into your forties and fifties with, uh, you know, less dating because it tends to be a younger market. And there's a lot of, I mean, there's a lot of regrets and a lot of pain. So it's not like, well, you can just get, you know, get rid of the baby and then just wait for the right time. It changes women and it changes men too, to know.
[51:50] I mean, most women that do have abortions end up having children later on.
[51:56] Yes, that's true. Of course, not all, which you've said before and I've objected to, so I'm with you there. But I think it is a very sad thing. It is a very tragic thing. And whatever we can do as a society to minimize it, do I think that women should be dragged and thrown in jail? Absolutely not. But I think that we should have the freedom to promote as much positivity towards birth as possible. Now, it is a little tough because you know i get the sensitivity of paying for a baby i mean it seems it seems weird it seems almost like trafficking and i get that and but to me it's better than a death if if it's.
[52:30] Possible uh and so i think that's a possibility in surrogacy like you said and it's something that's beneficial for both parties um but also in situations where it's where the baby might not be viable it's extremely painful for the woman to have to carry a non-viable baby to term if it won't survive outside of the womb and that could be an emotional struggle that she'll carry with her through her entire life as well look i mean you mean like ectopic pregnancies and you mean sort of ectopic.
[53:05] Pregnancies and so on.
[53:08] There are a lot of different reasons. That fetus might not be viable. The pregnancy might be ectopic, as you said, which means that it would be growing outside of a habitable environment within the human body. Or some serious deformity, maybe? And if it is ectopic, it would more than likely pose a huge threat to that woman's life. A lot of women die from this if it's not treated quickly.
[53:35] And the baby can't possibly survive, so you're not killing something that can't survive. You're not killing a viable baby there. I mean, so to me, I hate to sort of reduce it to this, but that's more in the realm of cancer, right? I mean, of course, you cut out a tumor, and if it's going to threaten the mother's life and the baby can't survive, I don't view that as abortion at all because abortion is, to me, the determination of a viable pregnancy, not the baby has nine heads or it's growing in the fallopian tube or something.
[54:04] What if the child does have significant deformities or there's going to be significant problems? What would be the philosophical answer there?
[54:14] Well, I mean, I don't know the answer to that because that's such a personal decision. There are some people who get great pleasure out of caring for children who have problems.
[54:27] Genetic issues. And they find it rewarding, they find it enriching. But there are other people who would find that horrible. I honestly don't think that I would be a particularly good father to a child with significant genetic abnormalities, particularly in thinking. I don't mind particularly the physical stuff, but the thinking part would be more of a challenge for me. So I think that people would have to make that decision themselves. Again, I don't like dragging people off to jail I prefer to create a situation of incentives. So one of the reasons why people have, you know, if you have a baby that costs $100,000 a year just to keep alive throughout the course of the baby's life, I mean, I don't know, in the US, it's probably a little different. But, you know, in Canada, it's all handled by the state and the taxpayer. And so the decision is kind of blurred by the lack of financial responsibilities. I mean, that's a situation where it's like, I simply cannot afford to spend that much on a baby. And I think we can all have sympathy for that kind of decision. But again, I'm all for if people want to adopt, fantastic. If they want to pay people for the difficulties of pregnancy, I think that's fantastic. But to me, if the baby has significant genetic abnormalities and the resources simply aren't there and the person really like, I can't be a good parent. And if there's nobody who wants to adopt, then again, And I'm not going to be dragging people off to jail for that.
[55:51] Something we're in agreement is there's no nuance now in the states that are going to shut it down completely. There's no room for plan B, you know, the morning after pill. There's no, uh, there's no nuance for these situations or in the first trimester. Or in, in situations with criminality. Yes.
[56:09] Well, but the, but the situations with criminality are also challenging. Because if the woman is only allowed to get an abortion or the man, sorry, of course, you have to mix these things up these days. But if the woman is only allowed to get an abortion for cases of rape, then some desperate women will say they were raped when they weren't. Again, these are the really challenging incentives that change when you put these kinds of situations in.
[56:36] And that also comes down to a lot of court cases where the woman is forced to prove that she's been raped. And if there aren't any, if there isn't any physical proof, if there isn't a video or a direct witness or anything like that, then she can't prove it.
[56:53] Well that's that's a standard we want i hate to say it but that is a standard we want in criminal trials so proof beyond a reasonable doubt is absolutely essential for criminal trials because you can't send someone to prison on a he said she said situation so yeah if there's no violence if there's no tearing if there's no semen if there's no evidence then the woman says that she's been raped the man says i didn't rape her and there's no proof either way i mean this i mean then the woman has.
[57:18] To have the baby even if it was because of a rape.
[57:21] Well that's the situation.
[57:22] I'm talking about.
[57:23] And all of this unbelievable mess, right? And it is a terrible mess. Absolutely appalling mess. This has all come about to a large degree because we have abandoned the idea of.
[57:36] Young people finding a good person to settle down and get married to with hopefully their well-married parents' feedback and wisdom and guidance and so on. And then being in a pair bonded relationship with a good person and recognizing the value of having kids younger rather than older for reasons of energy and fertility and so on. And so because we've just abandoned all of that, we have people out there hooking up all over the place. We have massive of STD increases. We have lots of unwanted pregnancies. We have, you know, 60 million babies aborted, which is, you know, given a big cause for mass immigration, which also has its own challenges. So, you know, we've just kind of given up. And I understand why. I mean, it's partly the fall of religion and it's partly the welfare state and, you know, the fall of any central ethos that keeps society in a debating room that's productive.
[58:30] But it used to be that we would just try and solve these things by saying, okay, so you have a sex drive and you have a drive for intimacy and you have a drive for companionship. That's all wonderful. That's what we're a pair bonded species.
[58:44] So yeah, we'll find someone good for you. You'll find someone good for you that we approve of or whatever, however it comes about, we'll get married. And, uh, you know, maybe you have kids younger if you want and, and, and there's value in that. And that way, so many of these problems are bypassed. And I sort of feel like we're like, the plane has crashed and we're like doctors picking through the rubble trying to figure out who to save and i'm about let's try and keep the plane in the air by preventing a lot of this stuff from coming about if that makes sense.
[59:13] Yeah but that's also kind of operating within this idealized picture of how things could be and unfortunately we do live within reality um.
[59:24] That's a bit condescending to be honest well i don't i don't need but i'm questioning that reality it's, I mean, if you look at the black community, they used to have 15% illegitimacy in the 1920s and the 1930s when racism was a lot worse than it is now, I think we can safely say. And now the illegitimacy is up to 75%. Now, if you're going to say, well, we have to live in reality. Well the reality is that the illegitimacy in the black community is 75 and it's fast.
[59:57] Rising in in the hispanic community and the white community and the and the asian community yeah so i i say, incarceration rates within those communities and they're they're correlated i'm not going to say there's causation there but there is a correlation between the incarceration rate and and that so Well.
[1:00:18] Sure. The incarceration rate is highly correlated to the illegitimacy because single moms in particular seem to have a great deal of difficulty raising men who turn out well. And I wish it wasn't the case, but the data is, I mean, completely irrefutable across a wide variety of cultural and geographical contexts. So, the issue of criminality is also associated. It's not just, well, there are single mothers because men are in prison, but men are also in prison because there are single mothers. And so, yeah. And so, what I'm saying is there were things that worked in the past, and we should really try and figure those out rather than playing whack-a-mole with all the problems that our brave new world has created.
[1:01:07] What's the solution to rape that happens in these states where abortion is now illegal.
[1:01:14] Well, see, I mean, this is the intransigence of the Christian community. And I like a lot of Christian values. I'm not a Christian myself. I like a lot of Christian values. But because the soul created by God is placed in the fetus in the moment of conception, then we have a life force that has questionable scientific, I don't believe in the soul, right? And so we have an intransigence and an absolutism in the moment of conception being when the soul enters the body and it's now a human being.
[1:01:52] So, you know, that is very tough. That is a very tough situation. I don't know any particular answer to that. I would find it. I mean, of course, there are women who say I was raped. I had the child. It turned out to be a good experience. But I can't for the life of me imagine saying to a woman who's been traumatized by a rape. Now you must carry the child to term i i i couldn't you know i i was trying to eyeball it like could i say this to somebody's face and and and so on i just i can't imagine that i think that the standard of rape has to be proven and and so on but uh it is uh uh i i can't i can't picture that i i can't you know i have a daughter like i can't imagine that that's not an argument that's just a complete appeal from like i i get it emotionally but i can't imagine saying to a woman oh you've been raped now you must carry this child to turn or go to jail uh i just to me that would be appalling that's unfortunately.
[1:02:50] What we're facing here.
[1:02:52] Right and that's because we have a a government solution without and government solutions almost always lack any kind of nuance because it's just like black and white it's the law and that's it.
[1:03:01] Yeah and i think if people do have their own religious values that they want to uphold, that should be their choice.
[1:03:10] And they shouldn't be forcing that on other people.
[1:03:16] Right, right. Now, I'm just curious, because as far as the Roe v. Wade stuff and all that goes, I think for a lot of men, I think this is true, I think with regards to vaccination, the sort of COVID vaccinations, I think more women have been vaccinated than men. And I think that a lot of men, you know, you've probably seen these memes of like women, like my body, my choice when it comes to, um, pregnancy. And I think the vaccine mandates, and I'm not saying that, you know, I don't know. I think, I think slightly more women support the vaccine mandates than men. And I think men, men have a tough time with this as a whole. And I don't want to speak for all men, but you know, I think I have some idea having spoken to so many. And it goes something like this. Okay.
[1:04:06] If it's my body, my choice, Why am I forced to pay for a child I don't want if you can abort a child that you don't want, right? And you can abort the child for free, I have to pay for 20 years. And again, I don't want to get into the debate about it. I'm just sort of saying this is men's perspective as a whole.
[1:04:22] Men also say well wait a minute i have to register for the draft and you don't, so when it comes to my body my choice if you're focused on only your rights then good luck i don't care about them that much because women don't seem to again there's some exceptions this for sure but women don't seem to be quite as passionate about getting rid of the draft as they do about retaining the right uh to to get an abortion and this is not a moral argument i'm just saying in terms of, I think it would be more persuasive for women if they focused more on, well, you know, 95% of workplace deaths are men, and it's not just because men are careless, and men pay significantly more in taxes than they receive in benefits, whereas women in general receive significantly more benefits from the government than they pay in taxes. And so, women have been, I think they haven't sat there and said, oh my gosh, we've got to reduce the tax burden on men because it's totally unfair. So I think if men sort of feel attacked, unappreciated, exploited through the tax system and forced to fight in wars if the government decides and so on, and then if more women seem to support vaccination mandates and then claim my body, my choice, I think there's just been a splintering. I would like it if men and women would unite more on this issue, but I think for that to happen, I do think that women need to work a little more on the ways in which men's bodily autonomy and financial autonomy is violated, if that makes sense.
[1:05:49] Yeah, and I think that you touched on something really important there, and that is the tax burden. And when a child is left to the state, that is a significant increase in the tax burden on the men of the country, and that's something that will be compounded. So, As it occurs through generations, and children were raised without good models of, as you said, you know, the supportive mother and father who are well pair bonded, peaceful, all of this. If they're raised without that, it does tend to create a cycle. And there have been studies on this, and it's a significant increase on the tax burden to not have access to abortion.
[1:06:46] Well, okay. Now, I mean, this is really tricky stuff, because I get where you're coming from, of course. But if we start to say, if they cost society too much, we can kill them.
[1:06:56] Oh, oh, that's a slippery slope. I don't even want to get within a light year off, if that makes sense, because there's lots of people who end up costing more to society than they can possibly generate in taxes, but saying that they're now expendable, I can't get there. That's just such a slippery slope, even if we take out the equation of the baby and say, well, maybe that's okay, but the general principle of they're too expensive for society to keep alive, oof, I can't get there.
[1:07:22] That's not what I'm saying. That's not what I'm saying.
[1:07:24] No, that's a principle saying that, well, if the babies are born, they tend to be very costly to society. Well, then we're saying those who are too costly to society are expendable, and that I can't get there.
[1:07:34] If you're also familiar with the Freakonomics team, they did a very interesting study into the link between abortion and the lowering of crime over the years because more unwanted children weren't born, thus leading to a life of crime. It was very compelling.
[1:07:51] Well, okay, you should look up rebuttals to that. So for me, whenever I find an idea really interesting and it goes with my whatever preferences or fits my worldview, I'm like, okay, but I've got to read the rebuttals. There's some really good rebuttals to that. And the other thing too, of course, is that, why were a lot of illegitimate children being born? Well, the answer is the welfare state, right? And we see this, again, happening all over the place where I was reading this tragically funny thing where women had posted, said, we all got together this weekend. And what we did was we said, okay, we're on a sex strike because like no more Tinder, no more hookups, no more date, one night stands. If a guy wants to have sex with us, He has to be responsible and has to have a job. And basically, they just reinvented the concept of marriage, which is like, I guess, only fans, but with one person who's your fan, so to speak.
[1:08:46] And so I think that the problem with abortion is I don't think it solves problems in society. Now, it does solve the problem of pregnancy for a particular woman, which then changes how she decides and who she decides to have sex with.
[1:09:03] And i think that we do have to recognize the complexity and the nuance like everyone who says well life begins at conception and it's a soul and that's it full personhood it's like ah you know, i mean that's not how science works right so science says okay when does life end right if you want to know when life begins i think you should look at when life ends and science says it used to say more like okay science says that life ends when the heart stops beating, And obviously, stays stopped beating. Okay, well, so you can get a baby's heartbeat at 18 weeks. The heart begins to form at 18 weeks. So, okay, that's pretty short. If you look at...
[1:09:48] Like EKGs or electrical brain activity, that starts at around 40 days. Sorry, 18 days, not 18 weeks. The heart begins to form at 18 days for the baby, which would eliminate, of course, if you say that's the beginning of life, that would eliminate a significant number of abortions. If you're talking about brain activity, I know that when a friend of mine's mother died, they did the brain activity thing to figure out. So brain activity starts at around 40 days for a fetus. So, for me, it's like, okay, if you're just going to say like a magical elf jumps into the egg and the sperm, the moment of conception, and that's a soul and that's a full person, that to me is not nuanced. That's more on the lines of superstition. But if people say you can have an abortion right up until the baby is being born, and that's not an argument, but that can't be right. That can't be right that the baby is totally killable one second and then absolutely protected the next. You know, that to me is not like, so I think that the nuance needs to be had and ways in which we can work to reduce the prevalence of abortions to me would be the ideal, but that means a whole social re-engineering of how we deal with poverty and charity and make it more voluntary and so on. To me, that would be the way to go. But I just, I always get annoyed, not in this conversation, which I think has been good, but just the lack of nuance drives me crazy. yeah.
[1:11:12] And and it's something that's difficult in these decisions which are so black and white is that they completely wipe out that nuance um and wipe out the room for discussion about it um when it's either legal or illegal um.
[1:11:30] Yeah i think we can all be pretty horrified at anybody who says a woman should be thrown in jail for trying to get an abortion I think we can also be pretty horrified at the women who celebrate abortion and consider it empowering because, I mean, whatever it is, it's a bloody tragedy. I mean, whatever we want to call it, it's something that we want to have a whole lot less of. And it's a very sad thing. And so this chest-thumping empowerment stuff is, for me, it's just morally repulsive. Let's not celebrate it, for God's sake. Let's try and find some way that we can work to minimize it and protect the women who, obviously, through absolutely no choice of their own, ended up pregnant and so on. But, oh, yeah, just this, you know, it's my right. And, you know, women running around with bloody fetuses, like pretend bloody fetuses on a stick celebrating it. That's just kind of demonic in a way. I mean, I'm not even religious, but that seems kind of demonic to me. And those extremes, I think, are shouting down the more rational discussions.
[1:12:30] Yeah. And I think that's unfortunate because it creates this kind of caricature of that demonic woman who is really looking to have an abortion, looking forward to an abortion. Yeah. I see how it's a knee-jerk reaction to people who try to vilify abortion.
[1:12:50] Yes, and there are women who do use abortion as a form of birth control, and that's pretty repugnant.
[1:12:56] Well, also keep in mind that an abortion does take a huge toll on your body. So it's not something that even women would go into blithely.
[1:13:08] You know it's it's something that it hurts it's painful um it can cause complications or health risks it's not something that is enjoyable it's not something that's a nice decision you know it's not something that people are really looking forward to unless they're really sick and twisted and i don't know and for the most part, People that have to go through something like that in their body are not going to be really excited about it. But if it's necessary, it's something that they'll endure.
[1:13:47] Right. And, you know, there are some women who get talked into it. And this is not to take away women's agency, but, you know, some guys can be pretty persuasive and so on. And I think that they then, you know, they say the guy says, well, I'm not going to be with you if you're pregnant. She wants to stay with the guy. And then he ends up dumping her anyway. And she's left with this abortion memory. I mean, things can, yeah, can get pretty unpleasant. And I've always said, you've not listened to the show, I think, much at all, but I've always said, like, for me, philosophy is about prevention, not cure, right? So if you're having a heart attack, you don't call your nutritionist to say, hey, what should I eat to deal with this? The nutritionist would say, well, maybe if you change your diet 10 years ago, but right now you need to call an ambulance because a nutritionist isn't going to do you any good, right? And so same like if you i don't know you're old and you haven't exercised and your bones are brittle and and you fall down and you break your hip you don't call the personal trainer saying what exercise should i do to strengthen my hip it's like no no no maybe if you'd exercise 10 years ago so for me it's all about prevention and and not the cure part i'm a nutritionist not a a an er surgeon so to speak and so when i look at yeah i mean there's there's way too much abortion there's way too much abortion but i don't.
[1:15:02] I don't think that the cure to that is not having abortion i think the cure to that is having more access to sex education more access to contraceptives or access to education families that are able to grow, their children with love and care and in stable, healthy households. I think that's all the solution to this, and that the solution isn't just taking abortion away.
[1:15:32] Well, again, throwing people in jail is not my preferred solution to just about any social situation. But I don't agree with you about the education stuff. I mean, first of all, education is readily available to anybody. I mean, you've got the whole world in your pocket, right? You can just look up how to get pregnant, how to avoid pregnancy. This is pretty easy. I mean, as far as I understand it, people do look up sex quite a bit on the internet. You know, they can find a lot of information about that. And also, sex education has certainly expanded significantly since the 1960s. And there's much more sex education in schools now than there used to be, but I don't think the prevalence of abortion has gone down.
[1:16:08] In more progressive areas. And there are things like child locks that will prevent access to any websites like that so within certain certain age groups it is something that kids might not have access to as easily as you and i might have access to especially if they're in a very religious family or in a very strict um community but.
[1:16:29] Again so what you what you have here is such a rare situation where the child has no access to sex education somehow it's not in their school it's you know they.
[1:16:38] Can't borrow a friend hang on let me finish.
[1:16:40] Let me finish, let me finish, let me finish, let me finish, and then I'll be quiet. Right, so you're talking about a kid who has, who's a teenager, right, mid-teens, no access to any form of sex education, their friends don't tell them anything, they can't borrow a friend's phone, and their parents have told them absolutely nothing about conception. I mean, that is such a tiny, tiny percentage of the population that I don't think it's something we can use as a general yardstick.
[1:17:03] I mean, you have to look at the areas in which this is being outlawed. I mean, A lot of, I mean, within our communities, perhaps it's not like that. In a lot of more progressive areas, there is a huge expanse of sex education. But if you look at a lot of Catholic schools, if you look at a lot of public schools within more religious areas, they're not allowing that. The parents are generally not allowing that.
[1:17:30] Sorry, but have you checked that? I mean, have you looked at the curriculum that kids are going through? And have you, well, there's two questions I have. One, have you verified that? Like, have you looked at the curriculum and said, okay, there's absolutely nothing about sex education here at all? Or, and also in the progressive areas where we've increased or the school board has increased significantly the amount of sex education, has there been a lowering of STDs and unwanted pregnancies?
[1:17:56] I don't have data on how many districts this occurs in on the specifics of the curriculum, but I do know that it is mainly focused at prevention. It's mainly focused at abstinence. It's mainly focused at preventing sex as an occurrence and not focused on how to have sex in a healthy way that will not result in a baby, specifics of how to not pass on STDs. It's kind of like how condoms were vilified by missionaries in Africa and then Eids spread like wildfire and you would.
[1:18:39] Also apply this criticism to the Muslim community is that right?
[1:18:44] I don't have data on that.
[1:18:47] Right yeah I mean I think it would probably be I mean I would assume it would be all fairly fundamentalist communities not just Christians right?
[1:18:56] I honestly don't have data on that.
[1:18:59] And what about reductions in STDs and abortions where increases in sex education have occurred in the schools?
[1:19:09] I'd be curious to see how that actually, if we actually have data on that A, and what that skew would be. So you make a class, but you've got no data.
[1:19:23] No, you're making the claims. I hate to be annoying, but, you know, the person who's making the claim has to, I mean, you're making all these claims about education and all of that. And if you don't have the data, that's not ideal, is it?
[1:19:37] You're asking me about data for fundamentalist islam which is not no no no no this is the one about progressive schools or sex education having lower rates of abortion and stds, i don't have the data but i i mean it's kind of logical i i would say that stds and uh abortion is higher in progressive communities well.
[1:20:02] No it's not logical at all because you could absolutely say that exposing children to more sex education normalizes sex for them, makes it more acceptable for them to perform, and therefore they will go about it more, and you'll get more STDs and more unwanted pregnancies. So if, I mean, because your answer, and sorry to be annoyingly critical here, but your answer was, well, we just need more education to reduce the prevalence of abortion. And I'm like, okay, well, if that's your answer, I'm sure you've checked it. But just saying it seems logical is not much of an argument, right? I mean, you'd want to prove that causality. And maybe it's there, but I've never heard of it. And if you do come across that information, I mean, I'm a big fan of education. It's kind of what I do, educate the world in philosophy. So I'm a big fan of that. But if you do come across that information, I think that would be very Very good. I think that'd be wonderful to know that education does decrease STDs and does decrease unwanted pregnancies or other negative sexual outcomes, if that makes sense.
[1:21:10] Yeah, I would agree that it increases it. That's just my... But is that based on something? Or is that just based on a feeling? That's just a feeling.
[1:21:25] Okay, well, listen, I mean, I think we've solved just about all the world's problems. I'm sorry, go ahead.
[1:21:31] I mean, you asked for data. I can bring up data for you right now. Or we can look into it.
[1:21:38] If there's data, great.
[1:21:40] Yeah. Positively correlated with teenage pregnancy and birth rates.
[1:21:51] I'm sorry, I didn't catch that.
[1:21:53] Would you like me to send this to you?
[1:21:54] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I would love to see it.
[1:21:56] So you could give it a read?
[1:21:57] Yeah.
[1:22:00] I'll send that over. What was it in a nutshell, though? Basically, the data supporting my claim.
[1:22:07] No, that's wonderful. That's great.
[1:22:09] Yeah. Yeah. So I'll send that over. And if you have data against that, I'd also be curious to see that as well.
[1:22:19] Excellent. Excellent. Yeah, I'm a big fan for more education. I personally have never been a huge fan of government teaching kids about sex. I just think it's kind of creepy. And I'm, you know, here in Ontario, the sex education was actually developed by a pedophile, like a convicted pedophile. Like it was really nasty. And I'm, you know, I almost have a little bit like, hey, I really want to talk to eight year olds about sex. It's like, really? And I get, you know, education and all that, but I have, you know, it's just a bit of a skeptical reaction to that.
[1:22:49] Yeah, I mean, within the bounds of biology and hygiene and health, not within practice, not anything suggestive in that way, but basic hygiene, basic health. I mean, even just a generation ago, my mother had no idea what was happening when she got her period. You know, and this is just a generation ago. She thought she was dying.
[1:23:12] Is your mother Carrie from the movie? Because that's the scene in Carrie. I'm so sorry. That's just appalling.
[1:23:18] No, but this is something that is a common experience of women who have not had, of just one generation ago, not knowing. What's happening with their bodies, not knowing what causes things, not knowing basic hygiene, health care, just basic biology and how things work. And that's something that has expanded greatly within progressive areas, but not necessarily within areas that are not as progressive.
[1:23:50] Right, right. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, obviously, it's appalling what your mom went through. I have no idea how common it was for women to think they were dying when they first got their period. I mean, to me, that was the only thing. That's why I made this terrible joke about the movie Carrie, because I think that was a scene where she's in the shower and she's bleeding and all of that. I thought it was rare enough that it would be in a movie like they don't put the most common stuff in, but wow, that's really bad.
[1:24:15] It's something that people didn't talk about. It's something that was taboo. I can vouch that happened in my mom too. Yeah, it's a very common experience. And it's something that people didn't talk about until, Sex education became something that was a little bit less taboo, just on the basis of biology, how things work, hygiene, and things like that.
[1:24:38] I mean, that to me is perilously close to the concept of child abuse, to not let your child know, in particular for women, that's, by the way, you'll be bleeding for a couple of days. I mean, to not prepare a child for that, it's really close to, if not right over the line of abuse to me.
[1:24:55] Exactly. And to also be restricting access to that, especially now that we do have access to information like this, to restrict access to that, also to me doesn't sit well.
[1:25:08] What do you mean?
[1:25:12] If a community was to restrict access to knowledge about biology, about health, about things like that, just because it has to do with a sexual organ.
[1:25:26] Right, right. I mean, but I think they don't teach you necessarily digestion or, you know, like foot issues and so on. I mean, this is a pretty powerful and foundational topic, right? It's, of course, sex education. I mean, because it's such a value-laden thing, right? Because there are some people who are like, hey, man, sex is just a natural biological function and it's fun and it's great and you should do it. And it's like, you know, that very permissive stuff, I think, does lead to a lot of broken hearts. It does lead to a lot of people who have casual sex to the point where they lose their ability to pair bond. And it's pretty tragic for society as a whole. And as you say, there are, on the other hand, these, you know, Quaker suited people who are like, if you touch yourself, your hand will fall off. And, you know, only when God is watching in a marital bed, you know, whenever you need a child. And I think those two extremes. You know, that's the whole problem in society these days is like the nutty extremes have just taken over the debate to the point where you just, it's, I mean, I'm not, you know, I think this conversation is very different, but man, it's, it's tough to have any kind of nuanced discussion these days. So we sort of mentioned before, because yeah, these two extremes and, and they caricature, they caricature each other to the point where if two, if two people are shouting themselves horse, how can you have any kind of discussion that that's productive?
[1:26:42] Yeah, I agree. And I think also with kind of extreme decisions like this, cutting off all access, it doesn't leave room for that kind of grayer, you know, where there isn't a clear cut decision. Moral, where there is moral ambiguity. Right.
[1:27:06] Now, let's talk predictions, though, because, I mean, if we consider ourselves somewhat knowledgeable on the topic, what do you think is going to happen? Now, I have a, I'll go first, because to give you time to think, or maybe you've thought of it already, but I think that people's behavior will significantly change. I think that women's behavior in particular, right, so women control access to sex, men control access to relationships in general. There's lots of exceptions. But I think that women's behavior will change in particular, and they will start looking for more stable, reliable, down-to-earth, loyal, hardworking guys in order to have sex with. I think that they will fundamentally change their behavior. Because a lot of women have said, in the course of this show and just in private conversations and so on, they've said, And, you know, oh, you know, the story is like, oh, he seems so wonderful. He was so great. And he seemed perfect. And, you know, then I found out he wasn't an airline pilot and he wasn't even employed. You know, he didn't have a Maserati. It was just a friend of his. And, you know, it's sort of a silly extreme example. But a lot of women will say, he seemed great. He changed. He betrayed me. He left. He and all that kind of stuff. Right. He abandoned me.
[1:28:16] Well, you could agree that men do peacock to a certain extent when approaching.
[1:28:22] Sorry, men do what?
[1:28:24] For lack of a better term, peacock, to a certain extent.
[1:28:28] Oh, we lie. Yeah, we lie. Absolutely.
[1:28:29] Yeah, when approaching a partner, especially for sex.
[1:28:32] But so do women. It's called makeup.
[1:28:35] Yeah, but men tend to do it with respect to how they portray their personal lives, how they portray their financial stability, how they portray their emotional intelligence, how they portray their job security, and all of these things. Men tend to embellish that more than a woman might in a similar circumstance. The woman might embellish her fertility by makeup and how she dresses and all of that, but would probably, of course, I don't have data on this. This is just based on how I see the sociology of this unfolding, but women tend to not lie as much about those core things as men would when approaching a partner for sex.
[1:29:28] Well okay so the the traditional trade in all of the animal kingdom is a man trades his excess resources for the woman's fertility right so a man who lies about having excess resources is i mean in a sense biologically equivalent to a woman who exaggerates her fertility as you know makeup is designed to exaggerate fertility and sexual arousal right yeah you know clear skin bright eyes, the lipstick is orgasm, the rouge is a woman's flushed face from orgasm, and so on. So a woman who is exaggerating her fertility and sexual availability is no different foundationally and evolutionary from a man who exaggerates his resources.
[1:30:12] But they would have different consequences in that a woman, if she wasn't fertile, would not be able to bear a child. But a man who is not able to provide or has misrepresented who he is as a person in that way would then not be able to be a supportive partner, a good provider and all of that.
[1:30:39] Well, no, but it's pretty terrible for a man. Hang on. It's pretty terrible for a man if he dates a woman with exaggerated fertility markers and gets married to her and commits to her and gets into a lifelong legal contract with her and then finds out that she's not able to have children. That's a huge disaster for a man.
[1:30:56] But fertility markers are not necessarily indicative of fertility. Women can be infertile and be the hottest woman in the world. And maybe she didn't eat enough and she was infertile from that. I mean, there's so many different reasons.
[1:31:14] Well, sure, but you vet.
[1:31:16] Right?
[1:31:16] So the man, you know, there's this old joke about men is like, go swimming with the woman. You know, find out what she really looks like without all the makeup. And the same thing is true for women to vet men. The women should vet the men and make sure they actually have the jobs and actually have, you know, whatever the resources that they claim to have. So, I mean, the markers...
[1:31:34] And does all of that happen before sex?
[1:31:36] Well, it used to.
[1:31:38] Yeah.
[1:31:39] It used to. And I think certainly for me, the adults are less important than the kids, you know, because it used to be that you would vet someone and commit to that person significantly, if not downright to marriage before you would have sex. Now, of course, this was a time when birth control was largely unavailable or inefficient. They used sheep's bladders and weird things like maybe thinking of Margaret Thatcher. I don't know. But so there was a time, of course, when people did vet each other before having babies, significantly vet each other before having babies and have a lifelong commitment, because, you know, we are a crazy expensive species to raise. Like it takes 20 plus years to reach brain maturity. It's ridiculous how many, like we have the slowest growth and end up the most complex, as is usually the case in nature. And so for me, if I sort of look at, okay, well, we've given up vetting, you know, people falsify their income, people falsify their fertility markers and so on, or their attractiveness as a whole through makeup and other things.
[1:32:43] And what's happened is now we have a lot of sex, we have a lot of STDs, we have a lot of broken marriages, we have a lot of unwanted births, we have a lot of abortions. But the people who suffer the most are the kids. And so for me, I always think, okay, let's, if we had a dream society or ideal society, which is a real thing, you know, people had to have an ideal society of no direct human ownership slavery before you could achieve it. People had to at least start to focus on the equality of women's rights before it could be, however, haltingly tried to be achieved. And so for me, I'm like, okay, let's invert this pyramid and say, okay, what's the best for children? What's the best for children? Because the children are the people in society who have no choice. They didn't choose to come here. They don't choose their environment. They don't choose their parents. They don't choose their race. They don't choose their gender. They don't choose their income level of their parents. They don't choose their neighborhood. They don't choose their schools. I mean, they're just dragged along like the tail of a kite in our society, in most societies, really.
[1:33:39] And so I'm sitting there thinking, and I just wrote a whole novel about this, so I'm sitting here thinking, okay, if we were to design a society entirely focused on what was best for children, how would we design that society? Well, we would design a society where people vetted each other and had a significant commitment before having sex. Now, can you enforce that? Of course not, because you can't throw people in jail for having sex outside of marriage. That would be appalling and a violation of the non-aggression principle. but if we were to say forget everything else forget what the adults want forget what media wants forget what hollywood wants forget what our loins want and our hormones what's best for the kids because if we can't design a society that's best for the kids it doesn't really matter what else we do because it's not going to sustain anyway it's not going to last because the kids are going to grow up with no loyalty to their society which is like antifa and school shooters at the extreme and nihilists and you know porn addicts and video game addicts in the middle and you know, everybody else. So for me, I'm like, okay, what, what, what can we do that'd be absolutely best? And I did, you know, huge amounts of research and I interviewed, I don't know, dozens of experts on parenting and child development into all of these people that's, I've done this years ago on my show. And the conclusion is, yeah, you need two parent bonded families to raise kids well. And you need, you know, strong, universal, good, debated and debatable moral values and all that kind of stuff.
[1:35:05] We don't have that society right now. In fact, we have a society that's kind of going in the opposite direction. And if we can't find a way to turn it around, you know, we're going to go the way of the Romans, which is not a good way to go at all. So...
[1:35:17] For me, if it helps the kids, and I'm sorry, this is kind of an annoying argument. It's for the children. But that is, you know, if it's good for the kids. Now, if abortion, easy access to abortion all the way up to birth, if it means that women don't have to vet men as much, well, that's just not good for kids. It's just, it doesn't help children. In fact, it harms children in many ways. I balance that with the fact that I sure as hell don't want to throw anyone in jail for getting an abortion, which is why I try to look for the positive incentives to prevent these kinds of situations. So I think my prediction is that women's behavior will change and men's behavior will change as well. You know, men will pull up their pants and go and get jobs and women will pull up their pants and vet men better because the consequences have increased. I don't think that there will be the back alley abortions. I mean, they were to a significant degree, at least according to these statistics that i've looked up very rare like a couple of dozen women a year dying and that's terrible of course but women die in abortions too so you know we can't have a perfect world that way so yeah sorry for the long speech i know that's kind.
[1:36:21] Of that's okay but that's my passion you touched you touched on something that that's interesting um and that's in women vetting their partners more if abortion is not available um and there's this one study i it's called um the turn away study um that follows women who um went to a clinic to have an abortion or returned away because who wanted an abortion but were turned away um because it was slightly too late um or or for for whatever reason it was um and it showed that women who were in an abusive relationship um, Um, and looking to get an abortion so they didn't have to stay with that person. Um, generally did not stay with that person. Um, uh, if they were able to get the abortion and went on to have children in a more stable way later on. Um, and then the women who were in an abusive relationship and had the child tended to stay with that abusive person.
[1:37:24] Sure.
[1:37:25] So it's not, it's not necessarily changing. I mean, it depends what the access is, of course, but if women are able to also have a decision, even up to that point, with who they're having the child with, that is going to impact that level of planning also for the stable person, for who they're choosing to have the child with.
[1:37:55] Well, but if the women vet the man more, then they'll be less likely to choose to be in an abusive relationship. And it could also be that the women who didn't get the abortion didn't get it for religious reasons, which would also cause them to stay with the man for religious reasons. So it may be correlation, not causation.
[1:38:15] But also, if you're thinking in terms of an abusive relationship that does involve a lot of coercion, and it is something that... Is is harder to leave um if there are children involved.
[1:38:31] Oh absolutely yeah absolutely for sure and that's around prevention rather than cure right so what i've done many many times is like come on there are always signs there are always red flags look at his history look at his criminal record look at his family has he gone to therapy does he have self-knowledge does he act out is he thoughtful is he gentle like there's so many like there's this thing that goes on and sorry this is my tiny rant against women. It's nothing to do with you. But it's this thing that it's really annoying to me that women... So women have evolved to choose good mates. We couldn't have survived as a species if the vast majority of women or significant percentages of women chose layabouts who did nothing, lazy guys or violent. We couldn't have survived because human children just require so many resources that without a dedicated father who's loyal and so on. So women have developed these incredible instincts for sorting out the liars from the truth-tellers. The peacocks was a great phrase that you use. The peacocks from, I don't know, whatever that is not.
[1:39:35] Women have developed these incredible instincts, and yet a lot of women will say, I had no idea. It's like, but we couldn't have survived as a species if women could never possibly or had very little chance to choose good guys. I think there are lots of really good guys out there, And I think women do have the capacity to choose them. And I think trying to get women, and I've done this for men too, like here are dangerous women because there are dangerous women out there and there are dangerous men and trying to tell people about, you know, I mean, I've been to both sides. I mean, I've had not great relationships and I've now been married very happily for 20 years.
[1:40:10] So if we could just get people to choose better partners and that rewards the good and stops rewarding because there's no bigger reward than sex. There's no bigger reward in the animal kingdom. And you see these crazy birds, they clear half the forest and do these weird dances with feathers coming up their ass and stuff just to get access to the female's eggs. There's no bigger reward than sex and it just troubles me that women are just handing out sex which is the greatest conceivable reward so to speak not to be too obvious a pun to to guys who are just terrible as a whole and then complaining and said they had no idea it's like it can't be that we've evolved with women having no idea who were good maters i.
[1:40:51] Mean with with abuse and this is true for women as well who are abusers um it tends to be insidious um and it kind of creeps in it's not something that happens right away um and it's something that can be a sort of jacqueline hyde thing so um, Abusive people can be very good at keeping up a facade, keeping up looks for their friends, for their family, and still perpetrating abuse. And this is true for women. This is true for men. This is true for anybody who has this kind of inclination. It's something, it's kind of like having a frog in boiling water. You know, if you just throw a frog into boiling water, it'll leap out. But if you slowly turn up the heat on the water, the frog will just stay in it until it's dead.
[1:41:47] Actually, that's a great analogy, but it's not biologically true. Although it is a great analogy, frogs do. My daughter loves frogs, not that she's boiled any, so she's looked this kind of stuff up. And I totally agree with you. There's a cat and mouse game to encroaching abuse. And some people are going to get caught for sure, but women also have to be pretty good. That's like saying, well, you know, the lion creeps up in the tall grass before it jumps at the zebras. It's like, yeah, but the zebras are aware of that. And most of the zebras get away. A few, one or two will get caught maybe over the course of a week or a month so that the lions can eat. So I agree with you, but the cat and mouse game of encroaching abuse has got to be something that women are attuned to figure out. Evolutionarily speaking, they've got to have instincts for that because otherwise we could.
[1:42:28] Respond to a certain degree but but also what women look for and this is not true across the board but evolutionarily are looking for somebody who's assertive who's strong who's commanding and presence who is able to get resources all these things so they might have instincts for that but it might be coming out in ways that aren't healthy um so i know that i'm sorry it can't just be put down to um, instinct upon first meeting you know well that's.
[1:42:59] I mean and and.
[1:43:00] That is true for men as well yeah yeah no and this is something that drives for duty for for um in some cases um, And that can also be used to cover up a person's darker side.
[1:43:23] Well, modern women do like the darker side in many ways. I mean, Fifty Shades of Grey is like the best-selling novel in history. And it's like, sure, you can beat me up, but you better have a helicopter. And so there is this sort of modern aspect. I don't know how long it goes back and so on, but it's a little alarming for men to see the hunger with which women pursue this kind of abuser. and find it erotic and sexy and positive. And this is true. Like, so for women, again, I've had lots of conversations with women about this. I'll keep it brief, but it's like, you know, I wanted a man who was dominant and assertive and would win and was, you know, cold and ruthless in his pursuit of resources for the family. But I also wanted him to cry at romantic comedies and be emotionally available. It's like, I'm afraid you're going to have to pick one of those too because, or it's like, I want a lot of resources. I want a big house. I want cool stuff. I want lots of vacations. But he works a lot and he's just not available. He's not around. It's like, you've got to kind of balance these things out because you can't get all of this stuff at the same time. You've got to have to make some compromises because one personality structure doesn't always accommodate. In fact, rarely does. The exact opposite.
[1:44:38] It all right all right all right good good listen i mean is there anything else you wanted to mention i've really enjoyed the conversation i really appreciate you guys taking out the time tonight and i will definitely look over those articles and i really think you've got some fantastic arguments and i really appreciate the the feedback yeah.
[1:44:52] I appreciate you taking the call i know this is something he's wanted to do for quite a while so i i really appreciate that yeah anything else you. Just being able to discuss just a fraction of some of the topics we've got, it's been really helpful that you're able to get us on the call just because, you know, we've had some discussions and I think we're kind of all on the same side, more or less, when it comes to these things. It's just working out the nuance and being able to talk it in a rational and philosophical manner. I'd really appreciate it.
[1:45:22] Yeah, I mean, I think we can all agree that we want less abortion. We don't want to throw people in jail who've been raped. We want to minimize rape as much as possible, and we all want what's best for the kids. I mean, I think if, you know, and how we achieve that, we can have great discussions because I certainly don't have all the answers to that and probably don't even have half of the answers. So I think that's great. And where we find this common ground, I think, is where the really productive stuff occurs. And it was nice and fiery, and I appreciate that as well.
[1:45:52] Likewise.
[1:45:53] All right, guys. Well, thanks very much. I appreciate that, and I'm sure we'll talk again, but yeah, have yourselves a great evening, and thanks again for the chat.
[1:46:00] Thank you, Stefan.
[1:46:01] Bye.
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