Stefan Molyneux speaks with a caller who is working through childhood trauma while wanting to help others. The caller thanks him for past discussions on mental health and then opens up about difficult early years with imperfect parents. At twenty-one he still lives at home, and those experiences have left him uneasy with confrontation and conflict.
He explains his worry about stepping in to support a friend whose brother is struggling with a serious addiction to psychiatric medication after a recent suicide attempt. The caller feels too young and inexperienced to handle something so heavy, and the situation has been weighing on him. Molyneux guides him through these fears, asking about his family relationships and how he reacts when things get tense. They talk about the reality that people often resist hearing hard truths, which makes genuine help difficult.
The caller describes his deeper anxiety that others might side against him if he challenges someone, especially on topics like ADHD. Molyneux points out the broader pattern of how people can collude to protect harmful behaviors instead of facing uncomfortable facts. He suggests thinking about intervention like medical triage: limited time and energy should go where they can actually make a difference, not to those who push back or refuse to acknowledge the problem.
As the exchange continues, the caller starts to see that pouring effort into unwilling recipients pulls resources away from people who truly want to grow. He begins to accept that his desire to help needs to be balanced against human resistance. By the end, the caller feels clearer about his own motivations and the practical limits of trying to assist others. He mentions his interest in future conversations about parenting and shaping the next generation.
0:00:00 - Opening Thoughts
0:00:51 - Seeking Help
0:02:12 - Childhood Reflections
0:03:19 - Language Barriers
0:05:38 - Navigating Conflict
0:06:18 - Understanding Suicide
0:08:11 - Professional Aspirations
0:09:19 - The Reluctant Client
0:11:24 - Exploring Interventions
0:14:10 - Fear of Confrontation
0:16:15 - Confronting Abusers
0:19:13 - The Nature of Fear
0:22:18 - The Impact of Evil
0:24:30 - Engaging in Disagreement
0:28:44 - The Ethics of Intervention
0:32:26 - Opportunity Cost
0:37:05 - The Cost of Helping
0:40:53 - Triage in Helping
0:43:35 - Recognizing Evildoers
0:47:47 - Fighting Fair vs. Dirty
1:03:29 - Understanding Your Impact
1:08:03 - Future Aspirations
[0:00:00] I am happy to help as best I can. If you want to read your message or tell me how I'm your best help, I'm all ears.
[0:00:07] Sure. I just wanted to check if my volume is too low, because sometimes I can't speak too loud or too low. Is it fine? Okay. So, yeah, hello. You can call me Luis or Luis. And I've been a listener for a couple of months, so not too long ago. And I mean, I'm not sure if you read the message. I don't have it with me right now. But I think the best way to sum up what I'm trying to talk with you is about healing from childhood trauma, like the effects of childhood trauma and trying to recover from them.
[0:00:52] All right. Sounds good. So tell me what's going on.
[0:00:55] Yeah. So to give you more context, I'm a young man. I'm trying to work helping people with their own issues. And I figured that I should talk with you because you are someone who has done a presentation before on mental illnesses, specifically one where I think it was taken down. You can correct me if it wasn't about mental illnesses.
[0:01:26] Yeah, well, pretty much everything was taken down over time. So I have certainly done the truth about mental illness for sure.
[0:01:32] Yeah, and I did it before and I'm trying currently to help someone. There's a very tiny chance that they might be listening to this. And it's not a problem. If they are, I just wanted to know that I really care about them. I want them well. And the thing is, I'm trying to help this person, but I'm also trying to, I think my own problems, I think my own issues are stopping me from being able to help another person and actually, you know,
[0:02:11] develop in my life. I think that's the best way to explain the situation.
[0:02:16] Okay, so tell me a little bit about your history, if you don't mind.
[0:02:20] Sure. Is there anything you'd like to know?
[0:02:24] Yeah, in particular childhood, what happened with your childhood?
[0:02:29] You know, the unfortunate but usual bad childhood. You know, my parents weren't that great, and I actually still live with them. So it's, you know, I'm still trying to separate.
[0:02:43] Well, that depends on how old are you.
[0:02:46] I'm 21.
[0:02:47] Okay, got it. So a young man. Okay.
[0:02:50] Yeah, so yeah, not a great childhood. Some ups and some lows. And just to start with my own issues, I feel nervous just talking to you. Like, for some reason, I feel like I'm not going to be able to talk with you, because English isn't my first language. So I'm like, oh, I'm going to sound weird and I'm not going to be able to express the situation clearly.
[0:03:19] Well, I understand that, and of course, I have great admiration for anyone who can speak a second language, so don't worry about that too much. If I have any questions or I'm finding something difficult to understand, that's not your fault. I mean, I don't speak your language either, so take your time on that, and I'll let you know.
[0:03:35] Thanks. Thanks for that, man. So when you're doing calls with people, I noticed that you're very inquisitive, if that's an English term. Like you make questions, you interrupt people, because they tend to avoid subjects and things like that. And this week, I had the experience of talking to someone, and I think they were trying to hide, trying to divert subjects. And then this comes to how I'm someone who's afraid of disagreements. I'm someone who's afraid of conflicts. I feel hesitant to interrupt people and investigate what's actually happening. And besides that, the fact that I'm young, you know, the fact that I don't have a lot of life experience.
[0:04:33] I feel like I don't even, I might not have the best answers for someone, you know, when I'm trying to help them. I just wanted to know if you have some insight into that. And specifically, I'm trying to help someone who has a brother, who is basically addicted to psychiatric drugs and recently has tried to kill themselves. And if you can stop me if this is gonna be like bad for YouTube and stuff you know talking about suicide and that stuff, uh yeah.
[0:05:08] Don't worry about that.
[0:05:08] Yeah i'm trying to intervene i'm trying to help and i think my own issues to stop me from being able to do my best uh the things i said you know afraid of conflict a play of uh actually like making the person not like me because i'm i'm starting to reveal, the facts that they might be not doing the best thing uh you know the we all
[0:05:35] know that people can destroy themselves, they can make bad choices. You can't literally force them into being healthy. But I also hoped to get some of your input on, like, what kind of stuff you do when you know someone and they're destroying themselves, you know? What do you say to them? How do you actually intervene in that situation? Like, you have a young guy, 22, addicted to psychiatric drugs, also trying to separate from his brother who has taken care of him, almost took a parental role. You know, it's a lot of stuff.
[0:06:18] Yes, it is. And help me understand, and obviously I appreciate your sensitivity about this issue and your desire to help, but why would you think you could help somebody who is suicidal and an addict.
[0:06:35] Um, so, uh, I've been trying to work or I've been working with, uh, mental health and that stuff for some years now, but I still think that I don't have a lot of experience.
[0:06:50] Sorry, just help me understand what that means. Cause you're in your early twenties, right?
[0:06:53] Sure. Sure. Yeah. So I, I decided that I wanted to work with helping people with their mental stuff when I was 14 and I got certificated in hypnotherapy when I was 18 and since then I just started like ever since I was 14 I just started reading a lot of psychology books a lot of Jung specifically also I'm reading about Wilhelm Reich right now well yeah so I try to I helped people before But I never actually got to help or intervene with someone who is this, like, level of...
[0:07:41] No, sorry. So, just to make sure I understand. So, and listen, again, I appreciate your desire to help people. But is it because you want it to be your job or your occupation? Like, you want to become a psychologist or something like that?
[0:07:54] I actually get paid for that. Like, I'm not doing it for free.
[0:07:57] Oh, you get paid for it? Okay. Got it.
[0:08:00] Yes, his brother is willing to pay me, and yeah, I'm trying to help people with that, and also trying to gain money in the process.
[0:08:12] Okay, got it. All right. So you're asking me for help with a profession that you have, and people are hiring you as a hypnotherapist. Is that right?
[0:08:21] Not necessarily as a hypnotherapist, just a therapist.
[0:08:27] Are you a, sorry, because therapist, do you mean like a life coach or something? Because you sound too young to be a licensed practitioner.
[0:08:35] Yeah, yeah. I didn't do anything formal.
[0:08:38] Listen, I'm not negative. I'm not criticizing. I'm just trying to understand your general circumstances.
[0:08:44] Yeah, I didn't do anything formal besides that.
[0:08:47] Besides the hypnotherapy and some reading, is that right?
[0:08:51] Yes.
[0:08:52] Okay, so you put yourself forward as a life coach, which is, you know, whatever, that's fine. So you put yourself forward as a life coach, and people are paying you for that. And so the young man who you say is addicted to SSRIs, has he hired you or has someone else hired you?
[0:09:09] His brother hired me.
[0:09:11] His brother hired you. Now, the person who is the addict, does he want to be helped? Does he admit that there's a problem? Is he enthusiastic to be helped by the skills that you can bring to bear? Yeah.
[0:09:25] So it seems like he's not, yeah, I'm just going to say he's not interested. Like sometimes he accepts a bit of help, but in general, he's very unwilling.
[0:09:37] Okay. So can you help people who don't want to be helped? It's a big question for life as a whole, so I don't have any final answer, but what do you think?
[0:09:45] Well, I'd say no, you can't force someone to make good choices and be helped.
[0:09:50] Well, I didn't say force. I said, can you help someone who doesn't want to be helped? I didn't bring force into it?
[0:09:57] I guess you can, actually. I think you can.
[0:10:01] Okay, so you can help him even though he doesn't particularly want to be helped.
[0:10:06] I think, not necessarily, but yeah, I think it's possible.
[0:10:10] Okay, so how do you help people who don't want to be helped? And again, it's a big question, so I appreciate your thoughts on this. I'm curious what you think.
[0:10:19] All right, so I don't know if you ever witnessed a situation where someone's doing something that is bad for them or bad for others or just a bad choice in general. And they never asked or they even resist uh criticism help that stuff and then someone comes criticizes them exposes them you know just just basically uh tries to help them but by, confronting them and that actually can make them the person better you know it can actually help them. Like I've been helped in this way. I imagine I've had people come to me or I come to them and they told me what I was doing wrong, that I was doing something bad in the next area. And yeah, I think you can help someone even if they don't think they can be helped or don't want to be helped.
[0:11:20] Okay. And how long have you been working with the person who's the addict you say?
[0:11:25] This is very recent and the whole situation got me uh thinking that well i don't want someone killing themselves like i'd be very sad if someone i know kills themselves and i thought oh maybe i should talk to stefan you know he's he's helped me a lot like man uh i i wasn't i didn't say that before, but thank you for the stuff and the stuff you're doing.
[0:11:54] Oh, I appreciate that. Okay. So how is it that I could best help you with the time that we have? I just, I understand the general situation, but if you can give me some more specific guidance on the best way to help.
[0:12:05] Of course. So, uh. Why do you think I get afraid of confronting people or disagreeing with them? Like just this week, I had a disagreement and I felt really terrible. And like, how do you heal from that? Or how do you stop being like that?
[0:12:28] Right. Okay. It's a great question. It's a great question. And again, a big, big, big old challenging issue. Okay. So the first thing I think when it comes to fears is to try and figure out what specifically you're afraid of, right? So the question is, if I understand it rightly, your question is, why am I afraid of confrontation? Now, are you afraid of confrontation or is it something else that you're afraid of? And what I mean by that is, if you knew ahead of time that the confrontation was going to go well, would you be afraid of it?
[0:13:01] Well, that's a good question. I haven't thought of that. If I knew the confrontation could... And by going well, you mean like no one's getting hurt or no...
[0:13:13] Well, it just turns out to be productive. Sometimes confrontations can be like life-saving and very helpful to people, right?
[0:13:21] Yeah. Yeah. So if I knew that it was going to be productive, I definitely feel way less afraid, like way better.
[0:13:29] Right. So, it's sort of the question when people say, I'm afraid of heights. What are they really afraid of? Are they afraid of heights? Probably not. It's probably not heights in particular that they're afraid of. What are they afraid of?
[0:13:44] It's death.
[0:13:45] Yeah, they're afraid of death. They're not afraid of heights. They're not afraid of falling. They're afraid of falling and dying. Right? So, it's important to be specific about fears. So when people say, I'm frightened of spiders, what are they frightened of?
[0:14:01] Um, you, you think it's still death when it's something that's,
[0:14:07] I mean, yeah, spiders can kill you, but you know, most spiders won't. Do you think that's still death?
[0:14:12] Well, yeah, sure. They're afraid of, they're not afraid of spiders. They're afraid of poison. They're afraid of poison and death and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, as you say, spiders can kill you. So it's not irrational to be afraid of spiders. And a lot of women, of course, have a fear of mice and rats, right? And why do they have a fear of mice and rats?
[0:14:32] Well, because they are dirty.
[0:14:35] They carry disease. They can bite your children. They can give you rabies. They can also, of course, they can poop in your food, and then you have to throw out all your food, which means you might starve to death. So people are usually afraid of very specific things. And i think it's kind of important to know what your fear is more particularly than something general like conflict if that makes sense i mean some people love conflict i i like debating with people i like it when you know when people call into my show when they disagree with me i'll put them right up front you know especially if they really strongly disagree with me and really if they dislike me that's even better right so i'm i'm happy to have these kinds of conflicts um for a variety of reasons, which we don't have to get into. So whereas if somebody were to push me off a cliff, I'd be upset about that no matter what. So I think it's important to be aware of what people, what you're specifically afraid of. And it's not something as generic or as general as conflict, because there's nothing wrong with conflict. Conflict can be very healthy, it can be very helpful, it can be very productive. So what are you afraid of in particular?
[0:15:48] That's actually a question that I haven't been able to answer for a long time. Like, why is it that some people make me feel really afraid and some don't? And why is it that I feel so terrible after fighting some people and others? I don't. But particularly, I don't actually feel afraid or I don't feel bad for fighting my parents, for example.
[0:16:15] But strangers. Like, you know how you talk about the dragon with fiery breath that is protecting the princess and the man comes and saves the princess and the dragon is the abusive parents?
[0:16:28] Yeah.
[0:16:30] So I actually faced the abusive parental figure of my girlfriend. And I felt so bad after doing that. Like I literally wasn't able to eat properly for like four to three days after.
[0:16:47] Okay. And what happened with that confrontation?
[0:16:51] Well, she came to us because she wanted... I mean, I don't think it's important to say the whole context, but she came to my house looking to the parental figure. It's my girlfriend's older sister who took a motherly role because her own mother couldn't do that, and her father is way more abusive. Yeah, a bad situation in general.
[0:17:25] So yeah, the sister, the big sister came to my house, looking to talk with my girlfriend, I guess, or punish her, bring her home. I'm not sure what she was actually trying to achieve there. But my attitude in this situation was like let's see if I can negotiate with her let's see if I can reach a compromise let's see if we can actually reach an agreement and I was trying to be reasonable and now I actually regret trying to be reasonable with such a horrible person, but yeah I just invited her to sit down let's talk and she was just trying to humiliate me, like, you know, calling names. And even though rationally I know that I'm doing the right thing, or at least I think that I'm doing the right thing, when the situation ended, I felt really terrible. Is that enough context and details? Yeah. Or do you want something? Okay. Okay.
[0:18:34] Okay, so let's look at what you were nervous about. And again, this is a good question. So I assume that the sister can't do any particular harm to you. It's not like she's going to hire some guy to beat you up or she can't get you fired or whatever it is, right? She can't do any major harm to you. Is that right?
[0:18:53] I actually was afraid she might be crazy to that level, but realistically speaking, she ain't going to do that.
[0:19:01] Okay. All right. So, why are we afraid of people who can't do us direct harm?
[0:19:08] What are the stakes? Why are we afraid of people who can't do us direct harm?
[0:19:14] I don't know, man. I get so puzzled by this question. Why?
[0:19:18] Okay. Would you like the answer? I'm sure you would. I can give you the answer if you'd like.
[0:19:22] I'd like the answer, yeah.
[0:19:23] Sure. So, the answer is, and I'll talk about my own experience, not because I want to make it about me, but sometimes it's easier to just hear things that are more personal. So I was not afraid of being deplatformed. I was not afraid of that. I was afraid of people betraying me over being deplatformed. In other words, I wasn't afraid that bad people were out there. I was afraid that good people would betray me. In other words, my guess would be that you are not so much upset with your girlfriend's sister as you are the possibility that people will side with her instead of you and the true nature of your society will be revealed that your society as is the case with most societies that your society will side with bad people over good people and it's uh it's very i mean sad and disappointing when that happens.
[0:20:21] Yeah, I think you're correct, man. Because all the situations where I was most afraid was when I was challenging something that is a tradition or a collective belief. And it feels like a giant tall man just like looking down upon me and like, I'm going to smash the fuck out of you. Because it's a lot of people believing in the same thing.
[0:20:47] Right. Yeah, so in most of the people I've talked to, where they have confronted an abusive or negative family member. The problem is not that there's been an abusive or bad family member. The problem is that everybody sides with who? Everybody in the family tends to side with who?
[0:21:06] Or is the abuser.
[0:21:07] Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right. It is not the attacks of enemies that hurt us. It is the betrayal of friends. So when I was deplatformed, how many people stood up for me and said, we're not going to let them deplatform you. I'm going to invite you on my show. I'm going to, you know, do the right thing. You helped me with my career. I'm going to help you now that you're under attack. How many people did that?
[0:21:33] Yes, not a lot.
[0:21:35] Almost zero. Almost zero. And that's why I was attacked. I was attacked because the bad guys knew that my friends and colleagues weren't really my friends and colleagues. They knew that they could attack me because they understood that, my friends and colleagues a lot better than I did. I thought I would have some allies. I was wrong. And so the bad guys had a better understanding of the world than I did. And for that, I give them credit, right? They understood that people were going to not stand by me and so on, right? So I would assume with confrontation, it's not the confrontation. I mean, maybe it's the fear that the people you're confronting will do crazy
[0:22:16] stuff. And that's, you know, That's a real possibility. But I think what we're most afraid of when it comes to that kind of confrontation is we're afraid of what it reveals about our society. We're not afraid of confronting bad people. We're afraid of watching everyone side with the bad people against us.
[0:22:33] That is definitely part of what scares me. I don't think it's everything.
[0:22:39] Well, when did I say it was everything? Our feelings have complicated origins. I think it's a big part of it. I don't know what everything means. There's no one single answer for every emotion, right? Sorry, are you still with me?
[0:22:53] Yeah, I'm just thinking because so sure, we know that what's scary is seeing how much people would side with people. But like, what do we do about this? Like, why do I feel so anxious or even shameful when I try to confront people rationally?
[0:23:17] Okay so tell me tell me a little bit about a circumstance where that's happened.
[0:23:21] I i can actually tell you from this week it was really interesting because um i set up the appointment with you uh thursday and friday i had someone talking about adhd in the chat and social media, and I was like, oh, I don't think that that exists. I don't think ADHD exists at all. And they were like super, oh, it exists and a lot of text, a lot of arguments. And I was like, you know what? I think I'm going to try and argue with them, give some evidence. And I started giving evidence and stuff. And I like, what do you call it? And when the situation begins to start and develop and then I start to feel, uh, yeah, escalate and I start to feel like my, uh, hairs going up and, uh, my chest feeling bad, uh, like tight and, and it starts to feel like I'm doing something terrible,
[0:24:29] like I'm a horrible person.
[0:24:30] Mm-hmm.
[0:24:32] I'm just disagreeing with a guy.
[0:24:35] Right.
[0:24:35] It really isn't a rational thing.
[0:24:38] So you mean your fear is not rational?
[0:24:40] It doesn't feel like a rational feeling. Yeah, I remember that you said before, they are rational things. But I really don't see how it's rational to be afraid of a stranger on the internet or to confront a stranger on the internet.
[0:24:57] Well, first of all, our feelings didn't evolve with the internet, right?
[0:25:01] Yeah.
[0:25:02] So our emotions are ancient, of course, and they don't know much about the fact that the people we're arguing with are half a mile away or half a world away, right? They don't know anything about that, right? So our feelings evolved with conflict being in front of us, like right in front of us. Does that make sense?
[0:25:22] Yeah, yeah.
[0:25:23] So when you're in conflict, your feelings assume that it's happening right in front of you, that the person is there, right? Yeah. Okay, so you had an argument with someone about ADHD, and you said, I don't think it's a real thing. And they said, no, it's a real thing, and you need all these drugs. Is that right?
[0:25:43] They didn't say the person needed drugs but yeah it was basically a discussion about whether ADHD and I started, making the conversation about mental illnesses in general like saying oh I think people I mean you can delve into the conversation it's not a problem it's just, the point is I was afraid of disagreeing do you want to know the details?
[0:26:13] Well, do you know, was this person on ADHD drugs?
[0:26:18] I don't, but I was thinking later that day that maybe they had like some kind of investment. So maybe they knew someone who was on drugs, maybe they were on drugs, and that's why they were so irritated by my arguments.
[0:26:34] Right. So if somebody, let's say that this person was a parent and let's say, let's just take a real convenient scenario, right? So let's say that this person was a parent and was an abusive parent. And as a result, they had a child who had concentration issues because a lot of ADHD, in my view, comes from child abuse because it's pretty hard to concentrate when you are being abused, or you're in a situation where you're frightened on a regular basis, it's kind of tough to concentrate. So let's just say that it's possible that ADHD has something to do with child abuse. Okay. Now, if someone has put their children on ADHD meds, rather than deal with child abuse, either in the school or in the church or at home or something like that, then have they done the wrong thing?
[0:27:29] Can you say that again?
[0:27:31] Well, so let's say that ADHD might have something to do with child abuse. And let's say that someone has put their child on ADHD medication, or whatever, it's not really medication, it's just speed, right? But let's say someone has put their kid on drugs, rather than deal with the child abuse in the environment, whether it's at school, or at church, or at home, or something like that. If someone has put their child on drugs, rather than deal with child abuse, would they feel bad about that?
[0:28:01] Um... I mean, if they're psychopaths, they wouldn't.
[0:28:04] Well, I don't know about psychopaths, but they would feel bad about that. Like if you get mad at someone for swearing and then it turns out they have Tourette's and they can't control it and it's just like an epileptic tick or something like that, then hopefully you would feel bad about condemning them for something that was outside of their control. Does that make sense?
[0:28:26] Yes, it does. Yes.
[0:28:28] So if ADHD has something, might have something, not all of it, right, but some of it maybe has something to do with child abuse, then if you put people, if you put a child on drugs, when the child is in fact being abused, then you are not doing the right thing, I would argue.
[0:28:45] Yeah, I also agree. You don't put your kid on drugs just because they're having trouble or something.
[0:28:52] Yeah, and of course, we know that it's not biological because children who have ADHD can concentrate perfectly well on video games or movies or other things that they find enjoyable or interesting. So it also has something to do with being bored, right? And school is very boring, particularly for boys. And so I think it has something to do with that. And there's a bunch of other things. I'm certainly not any kind of big expert. But, you know, there's lots of things to look at, I would argue, before you would look at putting kids on drugs. You would look at their situation, their environment, if there's any abuse, if they're bored, maybe they're super intelligent and school is just really boring for them. I mean, there's a lot of things, I think, that should be looked at before that you put them on drugs. Now, let's say that this person you were debating with had done the wrong thing and had put his child on drugs, where the child may in fact just be bored or abused or something like that, right? Now, if someone's a child abuser, they would much rather that the children get drugged than the abuse be revealed, right? Does that make sense?
[0:29:59] Yes, it makes a lot of sense.
[0:30:01] So, again, I don't know anything about this particular conversation. I'm just looking at why you might feel nervous. We feel nervous when we are in the presence of potential evil. And feeling nervous is a good decision when you're in the presence of potential evil, because evil can be very dangerous. And the evil is twofold. The first is that you may be in the presence of a genuine evildoer. And the second is, if you are in the presence of a genuine evildoer, then it's unfortunate to realize that usually your friends will avoid the fight and side either with, they'll either move away or they'll side with the evildoer. And nobody likes to see that. That's kind of gross to see, right? And it's scary and it's unpleasant, right? So generally, if you feel nervous, the first thing that I would do is I would scan around and I would look around and say, okay, is it possible that there's an evildoer around? Somebody who's genuinely malevolent and destructive and narcissistic and abusive and maybe sadistic or any number of things, right? The first thing that I would do is look and see, is it possible that there's an evildoer around. And if it's possible that there is an evildoer around, then that would explain the nervousness, right? I mean, if you've ever been camping and you hear some snuffling and rustling around your tent in the middle of the night, would you feel nervous?
[0:31:26] Yeah, I feel nervous.
[0:31:28] Yeah, because, well, why?
[0:31:30] Well, it could potentially be a danger, a source of danger.
[0:31:35] Right. Or to put it another way, those of our ancestors who didn't feel nervous in the past, did they have a higher or lower chance of surviving?
[0:31:47] Of course, they had a higher chance of surviving. If they didn't, they were more likely to die.
[0:31:56] Yes, that's right. So the people who've survived are the people who have been pretty accurate in their detection of danger, if that makes sense. Now, of course, if you feel nervous and paranoid and frightened all the time, then that wears out your system, right? Like you end up with too much cortisol, it's bad for your immune system, it's bad for your system as a whole, if you are too nervous all the time, if that makes sense.
[0:32:26] So, our nervousness has usually tried to calibrate itself to when we're in danger, and we can do something about that danger, but not to be nervous for no reason, if that makes sense. So with nervousness i would say is there an evildoer in the environment now it's possible if you're debating with someone about something like adhd which is something that is put upon children i think it's possible that you are in the presence of someone who has done harm to children, whether their own or others or they've advocated for something even if they've never put anyone one that they know on ADHD meds, if they've been advocating for it and it turns out that they may not be right about it, then they've done some evil, wouldn't you say?
[0:33:16] Yeah, that's a pretty accurate assessment.
[0:33:20] Now, if you are in the presence of an evildoer, you are in the presence of danger. Because evildoers or people who can't admit fault or whatever you want to call them, right? They can be very destructive and very harmful, right? So, in terms of confrontation, if you might be exposing an evildoer, or you might be making someone more conscious of the fact that they've done some significant harm, then you are in danger. And it would make sense to be nervous, wouldn't it?
[0:33:50] Yeah, but in this situation that I mentioned, are you talking about social fighting, like reputation destruction, those kinds of things?
[0:34:00] Why would I be talking about any one thing in particular? I don't know. Evildoers have different ways of harming you. It could be reputational destruction, it could be direct attack, it could be poisoning you, it could be beating you up, it could be getting you fired, it could be any number of things could happen, right?
[0:34:20] So I feel like we should, not just that we should, but like maybe my imagination is a bit off, but a stranger on the internet can do harm to.
[0:34:34] But it's more limited.
[0:34:35] Right?
[0:34:35] No, no, again, I said our emotions did not evolve with the internet. So your emotions think that the conflict is happening right in front of you.
[0:34:43] That makes sense. Okay. That's false.
[0:34:46] And of course, people on the internet can also do you great harm. I mean, lots of people lied about me, which then ended up doing me some significant harm. And they lied about me on the internet and so on, right? So people on the internet can write lies about you they can dox you they can try and get you fired they can uh you know there's they could report you to the authorities like there's lots of things that people can do to do you harm uh if you get into conflict with them.
[0:35:11] Yeah i i'm i'm somewhat aware of how evildoers can be creative in harming people um, I felt like I needed to mention to you that I feel nervous just talking with you. I'm not implying that you're an evo-doer, but I really don't understand what about our conversation would be scary to me, even in the evolutionary psychology framework.
[0:35:42] Sorry, you don't know why talking with me might be scary or negative?
[0:35:46] Scary to me, yeah.
[0:35:48] Well um how is my reputation as a whole how is my reputation doing as a whole i.
[0:35:55] Think people see you as a crazy guy as.
[0:35:59] Oh no crazy would be a big step up they view me as an immoral as a bad guy right and so um so it would make sense that you would have some nervousness talking to me because you are having a conversation that is curious and sympathetic with a person who is socially attacked as a bad person, right?
[0:36:26] Mm-hmm.
[0:36:27] And so, yeah, it would make sense to me because then also you're finding out whether people around you believe lies, nonsense, and propaganda or whether they are honest and honorable people, right? Because if people around you say, look, if they ever found out, say, oh, you talked with that Stef guy, he's a bad guy, right? And if you were to say, no, that's just stuff, lies that people have told about him because he does a lot of work to fight evildoers and so on, right? Then you would find out whether people respected you, respected facts, truth, reason, and evidence, or whether they were just easily programmed NPCs who don't really have a soul, if that makes sense.
[0:37:05] And you would find out the moral nature of the people around you. Sorry, go ahead.
[0:37:09] That's a good reason to be afraid. I'm not sure if that's my reason why I'm afraid, because I actually do content for the internet. I'm not famous at all, but I do content in my native language. I say some things that are true and unpleasant. I'm not sure how far I can go before the overton window, you know, before people start crashing out and you know the the fact that i confronted people in my life and that i confront people on the internet you know i can put a front uh like a fighting attitude but inside i feel really bad yeah the fact that i did all of those things in my own personal life you know those uh gossiping adults being like oh you know the that guy in the family who's the who doesn't want wants a formal education and he uh doesn't you know follow the collective beliefs traditions and stuff all the gossiping all the reputations mirroring i think i've dealt with that enough in my life that it isn't really what scares me. Uh, but yeah, uh, your, your guess is not a bad guess, I think.
[0:38:37] Well, the truth is a very dangerous occupation. Can we agree on that?
[0:38:43] Yeah.
[0:38:44] Because almost all evil is based on falsehoods and lies and propaganda. And so if you're good at dismantling lies and falsehoods and propaganda, then you are also good at interfering with the goals and intentions of evildoers. Is that a fair statement?
[0:39:00] Yes.
[0:39:01] Now, one of the things about evildoers that is kind of foundational is they don't fight fair. Right, so evildoers won't debate you, they won't disagree with you, they won't argue with you, right? What will evildoers generally do if you are interfering with their goals and plans?
[0:39:19] They will lie, they will use violence or threats, they will cheat.
[0:39:25] Yeah they don't fight fair so it's not like you have a duel it's like they just kind of try and poison your reputation or find other ways to to get you banned or they lie about you and so so with with evildoers you generally don't have a fair fight on your hands if that makes sense, yeah so um and the reason that they do all of that is that people as a whole let them get away with it, So the reason that lying works is that people are too lazy to find out the truth. Especially now with the internet, right? So in the past, it was pretty hard to get a hold of the truth. Now with the internet, it's very easy to get a hold of the truth if you want it. And so the reason that evildoers do what they do is because it works, because people are lazy and won't find out the truth. And so the lies work. In other words, evildoers get their power from the laziness of people. Evildoers say, oh, this person is bad. And people are like, yeah, he's bad. You know, that kind of stuff, right? And so evil works because, I mean, I'm not talking about direct violence, right? Evil works because people reward it by believing the lies. And that's just a basic fact of nature. Sorry, go ahead.
[0:40:48] I'm following your logic. I never thought about it. this way how laziness beats evil.
[0:40:54] Uh yeah because i mean lies were and again i say this from direct obviously direct personal experience that people lied about me for many years and then those lies bore fruit in that i was deplatformed and so on and so yeah uh people are lazy they don't want to find out the truth they believe gossips and and rumors and all sorts of nonsense and that gives great power to evildoers. I mean, if everyone that evildoers attacked was defended strongly and, you know, was.
[0:41:29] The Streisand effect worked and, you know, people were given more truth and every time you attacked a good man, you know, the virtues of his good statements and arguments were further scattered, then evil would stop doing it, right? Because it would be doing the opposite of what they want, if that makes sense.
[0:41:49] So evil flourishes from the laziness of the people and from the fact that people like hearing about, they like in the most, they like hearing bad things about good people. They have a hunger to hear bad things about good people because if they hear bad things about good people, they can then feel that they have an excuse as to why they're not good people. You can't be a good person because everyone who's good turns out to be a fraud or a fake or a phony or something like that. So you can't, you know, there's no such thing as good people, you know, all of that. They love hearing bad things about good people. They love it when somebody who is considered to be heroic turns out to have flaws or is bad or something like that. And people love to engage and spread gossip about good people so that they can have an excuse as to why they don't do any particular kind of good in their own life and why they sort of live in this squalor of low expectations and bad company and so on, right? So evil is a shadow cast by the laziness of good people. Sorry, that was a bad way to put it. Let me rephrase that.
[0:43:05] Evil is a shadow cast by the indifference and greed and laziness of the average person. Evil does what it does because it can rely upon lazy people to spread rumors and to believe everything that's bad about good people and so on. In other words, the people in Athens took Socrates to court because they knew that the people would believe all these negative things and put him to death.
[0:43:33] If they didn't believe that, they wouldn't have done it. And they were right, as they usually are. and so when i was deplatformed the bad guys knew that most people like almost nobody would defend me and that everybody would pretend i didn't exist and they would be able to thwart my message and so on and they were right and they understood the nature of people as a whole and they they did what they did not because of some innate power of their own but because they accurately assessed the integrity and honor of the average person and knew that all of my colleagues would flee from me, even those colleagues of mine who knew that I was completely right about my analyses of things, that I would be hung out to dry, that I would be tossed aside. And so in terms of being nervous when you are in conflict with people who might be immoral, I don't think it's irrational at all.
[0:44:28] Evil people have a better understanding of human nature, certainly than I did. I remember thinking about this even way back in 2006, no, 2008, when I was first attacked.
[0:44:39] By the media, I remember thinking about this, and I also remember thinking that my mother had a better understanding of human nature than I ever did, because she understood that she could do all the evil that she wanted in the household, and nobody would do anything about it or say anything about it because people, don't, in general, do anything about evildoers. They will collude with them if necessary. And we can get mad about this. We could say, well, it has evolutionary reasons or something like that. But it is just a basic fact of life that you will be betrayed by most of the people who claim to care about you unless you have really good people in your life, which is not the easiest thing in the world to achieve, if that makes sense.
[0:45:19] Yeah, that is making a lot of sense. And I take it as like a warning that in the future, I should expect more and more to, you know, meet people who are too cowardice, to defend virtue, you know, to defend the truth.
[0:45:35] Well, they will not just not defend it, they will spread those rumors. They will collude with the evildoers to harm the virtuous, because that way, they get to avoid the responsibility of trying to be good.
[0:45:48] Well yeah so we we can reach the conclusion that it's not irrational to be nervous but is it, a good thing to be as nervous as i guess because i i mean maybe it is from my perspective it feels like an overreaction it feels like it's it's exaggerated like it's that's how it looks to me.
[0:46:13] All right and how would you judge that i mean i'm not saying you're wrong maybe you're right i don't know, but how would you judge whether your feelings are exaggerated?
[0:46:22] Because I see other people confronting, criticizing, fighting, and whatever, and they don't show the same level of nervousness that I do. You just mentioned that you really like confrontations, you like disagreeing with people. It's something that's like a sport. No, no, but only if.
[0:46:43] Oh, sorry, I said I like debating and things like that. I like having conflicts with people who are going to fight fair. I don't like having conflicts with people who are going to fight dirty because it's not a fair or honest conflict. It'd be like, let's say I was a boxer and I liked boxing. Say, oh, I really like boxing, man. It's a lot of fun. But if somebody is going to drug me instead of fight a boxing match, they're just going to drug me. Well, I don't want that. Like, I don't like that. I like boxing. I don't like being drugged. And so I'm fine with conflict if it's a fair fight. If on the other hand it's not a fair fight but it's just lies, reputation, destruction or other negative things then I don't like that, I don't particularly want to engage in because it's not a fair fight, it's not a reasonable interaction if that.
[0:47:33] Makes sense let me ask you something so would you say that this follows correct me if I'm wrong but you have spoken about how you shouldn't try and fight fair
[0:47:45] with people who don't fight fair. So I have to learn how to recognize evildoers and fight dirty with them back.
[0:47:54] Well, I mean, I'm not sure about fight dirty, but I don't feel... I prefer not to get into conflicts with evildoers as a whole. I mean, if I have to, then sure, I'll do whatever, right? But in general, I prefer to try to prevent evil rather than cure it, because curing evil is often something that requires violence, and I'm a philosopher, not a warrior, if that makes sense.
[0:48:21] I guess. I think you can do a lot of good with your tongue, using your tongue as a sword, not anything physical. Because you talk about balance.
[0:48:33] Well, come on, I've been a podcaster for 21 years. I mean, you don't have to tell me that I can do good with my tongue. I mean, that's exactly what I have been doing.
[0:48:42] Yeah. People haven't been fighting you fairly. I figured that maybe you learned how to detect people who are evil maybe you learned how to attack them back in some kind of chess game of ideas Sorry.
[0:49:03] But the evil doers, they're not fighting a game of ideas.
[0:49:06] They're straight up going to.
[0:49:08] The physical things They're just going to try and take you out of the game They don't fight fair It's not like if you and I have a running race, they won't fight fair. They'll just tie my shoelaces together or they'll put itching powder in my shorts or they'll drug me. It's not going to be a running race. It's going to be something else completely, if that makes sense.
[0:49:37] Yeah, that makes sense. So, I feel a lot better about the situation overall because, you know, trying to help people and trying to expose the ways they might have done something wrong. And the reason that I'm afraid is because they might turn against me and might collude with people who I thought were my friends. That's all clear, I think.
[0:50:02] Good, good. I'm glad.
[0:50:04] The second question I tell you is, do you think when someone is doing bad choices, you know, like someone is trying to destroy themselves, but accepts some kind of help or, you know, just accepts help in general? No, I didn't probably take the question really well. I'm not sure if it's a good thing to intervene with people. I'm trying to get to this concept of like, how much do I actually try to intervene someone's life if they are doing bad choices? Because, you know, there's this dynamic that, of course, with the person I'm trying to help, which is that they've been taken care of a lot. His brother is taking a lot of care of him, but it's to a point where he feels humiliated because it's like, oh, so you're saying I can't do it by myself, I can't take care of myself.
[0:51:06] The brother you're trying to help is feeling humiliated.
[0:51:10] Yeah. And he's like, I'm going to distance myself from you. I'm going to go live with a friend I've met on the internet for a year. The guy just met someone on the internet for a year and just says, okay, I'm going to travel and go live with them, like crazy stuff. You know, when someone's pride stops them from being helped, like, oh, you think I can't take care of myself? I'm trying to ask you something along the lines of, how do I know when it's a good choice to intervene or not? Because there's always this lingering fear of like, well, if I don't do anything, they They might harm themselves more, and I want to prevent that.
[0:51:54] Right. So your question is, when should you help people and when should you not help people?
[0:52:00] Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
[0:52:01] Yeah. Okay. Well, have you ever heard of a triage in a hospital?
[0:52:08] Uh, triage? I don't think so, no.
[0:52:11] Right. So triage means, it's from tree, it means tri, it means three. It means dividing people into three categories. So let's say that there's some big mass casualty event, some bombing, some shooting, or something like that. And there's like a hundred people who've been badly injured. And they all come to the hospital at the same time. So what do the doctors try to do?
[0:52:34] They try to see the person that's worse in their wounds. Something like that?
[0:52:42] No, not the worst. So they try to divide people into three categories. The first category is people who are going to die no matter what. Like no matter what help you give them, they're going to die. And then there's other people who will die if you don't treat them in the next 20 minutes. And then there are people who can last at least 20 minutes or more without getting help. You might bind their wounds, you might do something, but they can survive for 20 minutes. So they focus on the people, the people who are going to die right away, right? They've lost an arm, they're bleeding out, like you can't save them. So, those people, you just, you send the priest over, but you can't do much to help them. And please understand, I'm not a doctor, so this is just my amateur understanding of how this works, right? So, triage is, we are going to not help the people who can't be helped. We are not going to help the people right away who could be helped later. So, let's say somebody has a broken arm, but they're not bleeding. Now, a broken arm will not kill someone, probably, in the next 20 minutes or half an hour, right? So, let's say, yeah, they can wait. They can wait to get their bones set, and it's not going to destroy them, if that makes sense.
[0:54:02] So, that's the tree. So, people, let's say someone comes in, and they're just almost dead, they're bleeding out, and you can't save them. Then you, unfortunately, have to let that person die. Well, not let that person accept that they're going to die. Now, on the other hand, if someone comes in and they have a broken arm, they can be dealt with later, right? But if someone comes in and they're bleeding out, but if you cauterize the wound, you stitch them up, I don't know, give them blood, what am I, I'm not a doctor, like whatever you do that's going to help them, then they have a pretty good chance of surviving, right? And that's a pretty good approach. I mean, that's been, that's certainly, it's going to save the most people, if that makes sense. So, with regards to, with regards to who, sorry, go ahead.
[0:54:49] You're telling me that I should be able to discriminate when someone is able of receiving help and not.
[0:54:57] Well, my point is that it doesn't, you're looking at who you're helping. What I'm saying is, look at who you're not helping. Because if you spend a lot of time effort and energy into helping someone who can't be helped really it's not so much that you are not helping that person it's that there's other people that you might be able to help that you're not helping who could in other words you're spending your time trying to you're spending the next 20 minutes trying to save someone who can't be saved and as a result five people die who could otherwise have been saved does that make sense yeah so it's the seen versus the unseen the question isn't who are you trying to help the question is who are you not helping by helping this person does that make sense yeah so you have a limited amount of time you have a limited amount of time in this life and a limited amount of energy, and what that means is how many just roughly how many hours would you say you've spent trying to help this guy who's the addict and whatever self-destructive?
[0:56:04] So since the, his brother seeking me for help, it was a very, very recent thing. I haven't spent lots of, lots of time with this. Uh, so I'm still on the process of deciding if it's a solvable thing or not, because, you know, I still have to talk with, with the older brother and stuff. Like talk more like get get more details into this no i understand so just roughly how much.
[0:56:33] Time would you say you spent on it.
[0:56:34] I think um it's it's not an easy answer because of course i spent like two hours speaking with the older brother but i also occasionally think of the situation and i think okay uh what what is the best choice i think i should ask Stefan I mean, the guy did a whole presentation on mental health and, you know, he's enlightened me on a lot of stuff regarding this. So we can even say that the time I spent with you here is time spent on this particular situation. It's not really easy to, you know, count how much time specifically.
[0:57:19] Okay, just roughly 10 hours, 50 hours, five hours, just roughly.
[0:57:24] Let's say four hours.
[0:57:25] Four hours, okay. And you're trying to decide on spending how much time?
[0:57:30] I never decided on a fix at a multiple times.
[0:57:34] Well, if the person is very self-destructive and is an addict, it's going to be tough, and it's going to be a long time, right?
[0:57:39] Mm-hmm.
[0:57:40] Is that fair to say?
[0:57:41] That is fair to say, yeah.
[0:57:42] Those are not easy. I wouldn't take on something like that. Of course, I'm not a mental health professional. I'm just some guy on the internet. But, you know, when people, if this guy would email me, I probably wouldn't have anything. because I'm, you know, that's a giant issue set to try and solve. Yeah. Probably would require some pretty specialized expertise. Sorry, go ahead.
[0:58:03] So, yeah, as you said, I've helped people in the past with mental stuff and it's a dirty battlefield. That's how I described it to my girlfriend. It's a muddy work, type of work. It's a very dirty, like, you get your psychological hands dirty because, you know, it's not for the faint-hearted because you hear a lot of bad stories.
[0:58:30] Mm-hmm. So the question is, if you take on this person as a client, that's another client you can't take on.
[0:58:41] Yes. Not that it stops me from taking another, but it definitely will consume some of my time.
[0:58:50] Well, yeah. Look, I mean, I'm not saying you can't take on any other clients, but if you take on this guy, let's say you spend 100 or 200 or 300 hours trying to help this person, that's 100 or 200 or 300 hours that you can't spend helping someone else, right?
[0:59:07] Yes.
[0:59:08] So it's not so much who you are helping as who you're not helping that matters.
[0:59:14] Yeah, I'm learning that lesson right now with you. That is a new thing to me. That is a new lesson to me. That is a new thing I'm learning about this with you right now in this context.
[0:59:26] Oh, good. Okay, good. Yeah, so I could spend my time roaming around the mall and trying to find people who were interested in philosophy. Right and then all the time that i spent roaming around the mall trying to find people who were interested in philosophy i'd find some people maybe once in a while but it would be it would be rare right right so i don't do that because all that time that i would spend roaming around the mall trying to find people interested in philosophy is people i would not be talking to who i know are interested in philosophy because they're calling into my show does that make sense.
[1:00:05] Yeah it's it's not efficient.
[1:00:07] I'm sorry it's what it's.
[1:00:10] Not efficient to look for people who are interested in philosophy at the mall.
[1:00:14] Right right in fact i may actually do damage to the reputation of philosophy because people would say oh man there was this crazy bald guy at the mall who just wanted to talk about philosophy like it was really weird right and so i may end up um, harming the reputation of philosophy, if that makes sense.
[1:00:37] That does make sense, yeah.
[1:00:39] So, yeah, I would say that look at who most wants to help, who most wants to be helped, if that makes sense. And if there are people who really do want to be helped and are really keen to do the work and are like, man, I'll do whatever it takes. I'll do as much homework as you can imagine. I'll read whatever books you want. I'll write down my dreams. or whatever it is, the people who really, really are going to want to be helped. Those people, I think, are important to spend time with because they're going to do a lot of honorable work and they're going to really dig in. I mean, when I was in therapy, I just did a lot of work. I kept a journal. I wrote down my dreams. I did just about everything that I could imagine, right?
[1:01:32] Sorry, can I interrupt you a bit?
[1:01:34] Yeah.
[1:01:35] So when you say you were in therapy, you were receiving therapy, right?
[1:01:41] Yes.
[1:01:42] Okay. Because I might believe that you actually gave therapy.
[1:01:46] Oh, no, I'm not a therapist. No, I'm not a therapist. I was receiving therapy. Yeah, I'm not a therapist. But I did as much work as I possibly could in that situation, if that makes sense. And so I was very hardworking. I did three hours of therapy for two years and got a great deal of value out of it and so on, right? So, whereas my therapist could have spent all of that time, effort, and energy in somebody who didn't really want to change at all. And because if my therapist had taken on another client, she wouldn't have had the time for me. I mean, at least she wouldn't have had that time for me. And so, yeah, the important thing is not should I help someone. The important thing is, should I help someone compared to what? Like, so should you help someone who doesn't really want to be helped, who doesn't really believe in therapy, who doesn't think they have a problem? Well, I would say no, because you're not choosing whether to help that person in isolation. You're choosing to help that person relative to someone else who could really be helped, if that makes sense.
[1:02:56] It does. Is this the best use?
[1:02:59] Yeah, is this the best use that you could possibly do with the limited time you have in this world? Because everyone you help is everyone else you're not helping, right? And so I think that's the big question that is important to answer, if that makes sense.
[1:03:19] That makes the situation really more clear and simple. You know, I never tried applying opportunity cost to my time.
[1:03:29] And in the context of working with people.
[1:03:33] Right. But I think that's a very important thing to do. Sorry, go ahead.
[1:03:38] That makes me even more willing to dig into the situation because, you know, people can avoid talking about things. And if they are too avoidant, then I can go on and say, oh, that's a waste of time. Then you don't want help, actually.
[1:03:54] Right, right. And it's sort of an insult to the people who do want help. If you spend a lot of time, effort, and energy on people who don't want help, or who aren't willing to get help. You know, like it's sort of like if you were trying to help people lose weight, there are some people who will listen to your advice and will really try and lose weight. And there are other people who they don't really want to lose weight. They're just there to waste money or time or, you know, they just find it kind of funny to talk about or something like that. And all the time you spend on those people, of course, is time that you can't spend on the people who actually are going to lose weight. So you end up with a more fat population, if that makes sense.
[1:04:32] Yeah. Like, just... I think you've gave me enough insight into the situation.
[1:04:40] Oh, good. Okay, great.
[1:04:42] If there's anything really that I would ask, I think I've asked enough of you.
[1:04:50] Okay, great. Well, I appreciate that. And I certainly do appreciate your interest in helping people. And congratulations on it's going to be a satisfying life to do that, I think. But yeah, you do have to be careful about the opportunity cost for sure, I would argue.
[1:05:05] It is a satisfying life. I actually feel really peaceful with my choices. I feel like a happy person, you know. I feel loved. I know that you've talked about love before. You've talked about how there's been a recent video on subscriber questions or something like these lines. And someone asked, do people have a hard time accepting UPD because they have a hard time accepting that they're not loved? And I think you said, yes, well said.
[1:05:37] That was good. I love getting listener questions, especially from donors, because they tend to be really great.
[1:05:45] So, yeah, I'm pretty satisfied. The only questions I would still have are regarding the show itself and, you know, becoming a donor, not really the subject I planned on bringing.
[1:06:01] Well, sure, if you want to ask me a question or two about that, I'd be happy to help.
[1:06:05] So, is it safe to assume that this is going to be on YouTube? That's not an issue. I just wanted to know because, I don't know, maybe you do some calls that don't go public? Or maybe do you pick some calls?
[1:06:19] Yeah, certainly there's some calls that go just for donors only and so on. So yeah, that does happen for sure.
[1:06:25] Okay, yeah. I will definitely become a donor. I just need to earn more money, man. I know that you've been to Brazil before. I learned about you from a video of you debating a guy in Brazil.
[1:06:41] Safatley, Professor Safatley. Yes, that was great.
[1:06:45] Vladimir safatli that's right yes, then i still have to read your book about uh universally preferable behavior yeah that's that's about the situation.
[1:07:01] Also, there's a book, Essential Philosophy, which you can get at essentialphilosophy.com. It's free. And the last third of that is a pretty quick summary of UPB that's incorporated a bunch of criticisms. So all of that hopefully makes sense.
[1:07:22] I definitely want to learn about peaceful parenting. That was one of the things that interested me more. Because, you know, I'm not, I don't pretend on having children yet, too young, but like having a rough childhood, man, that makes me want to learn how to not, you know, give a bad childhood. I think people really underestimate the importance of your work.
[1:07:49] I imagine that would be, I think that's true, that people do underestimate the importance of my work and the work that the listeners do, such as yourself, in really helping people to understand these things. So I appreciate that. Thank you.
[1:08:03] So yeah, you might see me becoming a donor in some kind of near future or long future. We'll see. I don't really have much to say anymore. Do you have any final thoughts?
[1:08:16] No, I appreciate that and I really do thank you for your interest in philosophy and, you know, the fact that you'll be bringing good rational principles to people who are struggling in their lives, I think is fantastic. And I hope you'll drop me a line and let me know how things are going.
[1:08:31] I mean, I'm not sure how I could contact you. That's one of the things I was a bit confused.
[1:08:37] Oh, sure. You can just email me, yeah, support, support@freedomain.com. S-U-P-P-O-R-T. Yeah, support@freedomain.com.
[1:08:45] I see. Okay. Yeah. I'll send you an email.
[1:08:50] All right. Well, thanks very much. I hope we get to talk again at some point.
[1:08:54] Thank you.
[1:08:55] All the best. Take care. Bye-bye.
[1:08:56] Bye-bye.
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