0:01 - Introduction to the Conversation
18:48 - Family Background and Dynamics
39:06 - Current Relationship with Parents
1:04:25 - Vision for Future Parenting
1:11:05 - Dating Dilemmas
1:13:06 - Emotional Turmoil
1:16:17 - The Search for Connection
1:26:03 - Reflections on Relationships
1:29:39 - Struggles with Vulnerability
1:38:51 - The Impact of Past Relationships
1:48:14 - Emotional Accessibility
1:56:04 - The Quest for Passion
2:03:11 - Breaking the Cycle
2:09:25 - Embracing Change
In this episode, I engage in a profound call with a listener grappling with feelings of stagnation in his personal and professional life. He shares his journey of overcoming depression and substance abuse from his early years, revealing that despite significant progress, he finds himself stuck in recurring cycles within relationships and career pursuits. We explore his struggle with maintaining interest in friendships and romantic relationships, as well as the challenge of carving out a fulfilling work-life balance while seeking to invest in a future family.
The caller expresses his desire for a long-term vision, feeling that he often loses momentum when looking beyond short-term goals. We delve into his patterns of disengagement when projects become challenging and discuss the importance of clarity in pursuing both friendships and professional aspirations. He describes a tendency towards sarcasm and cynicism as a defense mechanism, revealing an awareness of the need to cultivate gratitude and positive thinking, even when it doesn’t come naturally.
As our conversation unfolds, the challenges of creating deep emotional connections become apparent. He reminisces about past relationships and the hesitancy to fully engage due to fears of rejection or failure. We highlight the idea that his binge eating, TV watching, and avoidance of hard work serve to protect him from facing the emotional vulnerabilities tied to intimacy and more profound connection with others.
Through this candid exploration, he acknowledges that despite his progress, significant insights could facilitate further personal growth. I emphasize the necessity for him to express and embrace his emotions as a pathway to achieving meaningful relationships, navigating past familial influences that may have hindered his emotional availability. Our dialogue also addresses his indulgence in superficial encounters, which he recognizes may perpetuate a cycle of disconnection.
Compelled to bridge the gap to his future aspirations of marriage and family, the caller faces the challenge of confronting the emotional barriers built from past experiences with parents who did not model healthy relational dynamics. We examine the implications of his upbringing on his ability to forge connections in adulthood and the significance of addressing these patterns to unlock potential for deeper intimacy.
As this insightful exchange draws to a close, I encourage him to reassess his approach to relationships, tap into his emotional self, and earnestly engage with his desires and values. This journey will not only enhance his interactions with others but also guide him closer to the life goals he genuinely wishes to achieve. I express my investment in his journey, urging him to keep me updated on his progress as he navigates these pivotal changes.
[0:00] All right, everybody. This is Stefan Molyneux from Freedomain.
[0:02] Of course, this is a man who has very kindly taken a private call and made it a public call, which is interesting. It's a little bit of window into how I work in private calls. And he didn't read his message to begin with, because of course it was a private call. After he agreed to make it public, he also agreed that I could read the message he sent me originally. So this is what he said. He said, topic, I keep playing musical chairs. Topic detail. After a lot of journaling, therapy, and other self-knowledge and growth work, I've made a lot of progress getting out of the depths of depression and drug use in my late teens and early 20s. I have a lot more ability to be social and productive now, but I still find myself running through these two related loops with friends slash dating and work. With work, I like to either make enough money to invest and homeschool without needing to work much to support my future family, or work my way into a position where I can earn a good living without needing to work in consistent 9-5 or 12 hour startup days. I have a couple of ideas on how to do that, but they're longer range and the path is unclear, which calls for working out more clear intermediate steps and working towards those. Something I've done before, but I've found that almost anything I plan on more than a two-week timeline, I'll start to disengage when the initial momentum starts dying.
[1:25] Thankfully, I found a way to a pretty good job and position that can lead to better future opportunities without being able to execute that clearly slash consistently on longer term projects. But I continually have a sense that I'm just about topped out there, that if I don't figure out how to stay engaged with a longer term project, I'll not be able to get a big win financially or increase my income while also having the kind of work-life balance I want for me and my family.
[1:51] With both friendships and dating, I found myself challenged to be interested in people consistently, both to go out and start conversations with people that might become friends or romantic partners, as well as staying interested enough to follow up. If I do that, like someone and exchange contact information with them, some ideas slash info that I think are relevant to both. I've noticed I tend towards sarcasm and cynicism as a way to protect myself from the risks of caring about someone or something, and that not being reciprocated or failing to lead to success. Conversely, I can look for the positive framing for a situation and find things to be grateful for, but they don't come naturally. I have to work at remembering to do things that way, to do think that way. To the musical chair's metaphor, I found people and projects to be interesting in and have worked at them for various lengths of time, but when they start to get difficult, doubt creeps in. I lose track of the why that makes working through that difficulty worth it and tend to slide back into what's easy slash familiar. Thus, for the next person or project, thus far, a next person slash project has tended to come along, but I feel the frequency of that slowing down in the last couple years. I take longer to find a new idea to work on or to get back out there and try to make new friends slash find new dates.
[3:06] The last three discrete behavior patterns that I engage in that feel disintegrated slash go against my conscience are binge eating, watching TV, and masturbating. I've gotten a lot better in all those. I don't do them as much slash as frequently as I did before, but they're still present enough that I think they still hamper my ability to feel thoroughly confident in and happy with who I am. Some less discrete patterns that I think are related to slash affect my ability to deeply connect with myself, others, and my work are hesitation, comfort seeking, avoidance of hard work, reactive avoidance of the pain of rejection, and failure. Having done so much work on these fronts, I'd like to believe there's more insight to gain that can unlock a next level for me. Not that one idea or moment will fix me, but that learning something new slash seeing something old in a new way will get me unstuck enough that I'll more consistently do the right thing or have just enough connection to a better version of myself that in the moments where I'm challenged...
[4:03] To choose the easy or the good, I'll start choosing the good more even when it's tough because it'll just be easier or I'll better tolerate the difficulty without reacting to escape it. I'm also considering the idea that there might not be an insight that does this, that the answer is simply I have to choose better in the moments and ways. I know I'm making worse choices. And if I choose better enough, I'll find my way forward. I've tried more mechanical approaches to making daily slash weekly habits to directly address some of the above e.g. Go out dancing slash to social events five times a week tracking what I eat and sticking to a specific diet this approach has definitely helped in a lot of ways but generally after weeks or a couple of months at best I'll either start to loosen up slash be less disciplined about them and slide back into old habits or I will have a sort of blow-up e.g. Slowly start to eat more junk food here and there one week to stop going out to be social and start watching tv again instead lastly in conversations like the one we might have i can tend to be abstract or obtuse i'll work to directly answer questions but please point out when i'm not, a number of years as a listener 15 years or more he's listened to call-ins before of course and so this is a private call and let's get started i've read your message and we don't have to go through it if it's going to be we'll aim for it to be a private call right so you don't have to read it, I mean, unless you want to, or we can just dive straight in?
[5:28] Yeah, I think let's just dive straight in. The TLDR on my side is been going in loops with relationships, both like friendships and dating and work-wise, where I feel like I'll get into things and I'll chase them down for a bit and then kind of lose steam and give up. And not in a like you try things and some things work and don't, but in that kind of musical chairs kind of way, like I mentioned in my message. Yep and part of me wonders whether it's just a discipline is a is a factor in life and i just need more discipline or choice is sort of a an essential element of life and it's just hey at some point you just have to decide and there's not there's not insider information or anything to do but that and part of me wonders if maybe i'm just i need more practice looking at um what what am i aiming for what's the positive vision i'm i'm looking at and part of me says it could be all those and i would like an outside perspective right.
[6:44] Right i mean the one thing that i got from your message and so on is i try i'm trying to sort of figure out the larger, perspective on your life so can you just give me you'd have to roughly you're in the late 20s early 30s or something like that uh what's your rough age.
[7:00] Uh i'm in my early 30s.
[7:03] Early 30s okay and where are you relative to your major life goals i mean do you want to get married and have kids.
[7:10] I want to get married and have kids and, Career-wise, it's a little bit more amorphous. I'm kind of okay with that. But, yeah, I'm not sure if there's a clear distance to an end point on that side, thanks.
[7:29] Okay, so if you want to get married and have kids, where are you relative to that goal?
[7:40] I don't know, 10 yards off the starting line.
[7:44] Okay, relative to what?
[7:47] Relative to, I don't know, 100 meters to ash. But I don't know that I'm sprinting.
[7:53] Okay. So, have you dated much?
[7:58] I have dated not anything that, some longer term, but not in a like, this is my girlfriend's official kind of, we're in a monogamous relationship. I've had relationships of like six months with a couple of people.
[8:14] Okay. so uh just if you can give me a bit of a history on your dating life uh make.
[8:20] A start from.
[8:20] Sort of teens teens onwards.
[8:22] Yeah i i went to a catholic school in a farm town so pretty small there were like 14 kids in my my eighth grade class um so like people in my in my school did do dating um, my class was pretty small so there wasn't a ton of potential to kind of do that early on and it It was a lot more like we're all kind of friends since kindergarten sort of vibe. Like the last couple of months of eighth grade, I had a girlfriend for the first time in high school. Asked a girl out freshman year to like go to the dance with me and then i asked her to be my girlfriend during the dance but almost right away i didn't feel interested in that so i don't know that was maybe like a month-long sort of ordeal sorry but what do you mean i.
[9:15] Just so you you were doing the dance thing and you just stopped being interested in what.
[9:20] Yeah so i asked a woman asked a girl uh freshman year of high school to like the homecoming dance, um and we went together to that at the dance i asked her to be my girlfriend she said yes but then like the next day the next week i felt disinterested in that and so the being, my girlfriend probably lasted for a couple weeks or a month.
[9:50] Okay and what do you think happened with that level of interest what do you think happened to make it less interesting.
[9:57] The on the face of it thing that i think even even in the high school years i thought this was i was just kind of horny at the dance and then afterwards i wasn't so horny and that motivation wasn't there i think there's more to it than that but that was like kind of the surface level so.
[10:24] You were sexually attracted or and then you weren't.
[10:27] Yeah okay.
[10:29] Got it got it and was there anything about the women's or the girls i guess personality or that that was negative for you.
[10:38] I don't know no there wasn't she was maybe i didn't think this at the time in retrospect She was maybe nice in the negative way, not like a kind person, yes, but maybe too nice. But I don't remember thinking at the time that that was something I didn't like about her.
[11:02] Okay, got it, got it. All right. And then what happened after that?
[11:11] After that i, was interested in other girls in high school but didn't ask anybody out, towards the last few months of senior year of high school um but i don't know i started seeing someone i guess we had never like will you be my girlfriend like do that sort of thing but We started hanging out and kissed a few times and did some one-on-one stuff.
[11:43] Okay, and what happened from there?
[11:46] At the end of high school, we both stayed in the town that we went to school in. Yeah, I don't remember there being a specific moment. I think it fizzled out.
[12:03] Okay, and was it similar to the last girl that you were dating? Like you just fell out of luster?
[12:12] I think this one that one wasn't so lust driven that that was part of it and that was part of the interest but it wasn't like there's a moment where i was uh lusting after this woman and then like really pursued her and then that died off um but i think it was i think it was similar in that whatever initial interest there was uh faded fairly quickly and i i didn't put an effort in to rekindle that or further pursue or try to explore that more deeply.
[12:46] Okay.
[12:47] Or slender with her.
[12:48] Okay. And then?
[12:52] And then after school, I decided not to go to college. I'd gotten into smoking weed and drinking in high school, so there was a few months of that and some uh related personal and family chaos started working at restaurants, and yeah i think had some women that i was interested in to varying degrees but never i don't even like maybe some co-workers i talked to because we're co-workers but nobody i ever really pursued or went after until i think i was 25 when i started uh i got on tinder and like started going dates from dating apps so.
[13:36] Uh were you uh a virgin until you were 25 or later.
[13:41] Yeah yep.
[13:43] Okay so how did you i mean you've got i don't know like a lot of years of sort of teenage sexual lusts and needs i mean was it just masturbation or how did you um.
[13:51] How did.
[13:52] You deal with all of that.
[13:54] Yeah yeah just born and masturbation okay.
[13:57] Um did you ever um did it ever trouble you and you thought maybe this is not the way to, to launch myself into the dating market.
[14:08] Yeah, I think, um, Slightly tangential, but related. Yeah, when I first started smoking weed, it was maybe a couple months of the classic stoner excuses. It's not as bad for you. Maybe it's healthy for you kind of stuff. But pretty quickly, I realized. Yeah, pretty quickly realized within a few months, like, okay, I'm smoking every day. There's something not okay here. And I had started listening to you, I think, around that time and started getting into psychology. So I recognized this is a symptom. Of something that i need to deal with that i'm avoiding i think similarly like with porn and masturbation and dating that like i recognized pretty pretty soon let's say after high school like i knew it wasn't where i wanted to be and i it was a thing to be addressed but um, yeah i didn't didn't like really dig hard into it or try to solve it.
[15:08] Yeah because i mean i was just sort of wondering because you had this sort of you had this lust you have this lust for these girls and then it kind of fades away and i assume that it sort of you rub them out until it fades away so to speak right yeah so the woman would stimulate sexual desire you would satisfy yourself and then be less interested in the woman i don't me to be overly blunt, but is that sort of the sequence?
[15:34] Yeah, I don't think I... I think I did do that around particular women, but there was also a lot of, Yeah, I'm just, I'm not pursuing women particularly. Also, again, personally, just not in a kind of shape where I'm really that creative a person to date. And then obviously, like, watching porn just makes it easier to kind of stay in that. No progress, suck zone, I don't like this, but I'm not particularly motivated to solve it with any sense of immediacy.
[16:09] Right, okay. uh i guess the other question that i would have is, what was the value for you in women because if it's just sexual and you can masturbate then i suppose you don't need the women as much but is it um is it sort of the case that um, you couldn't think of why women would be valuable outside of sex.
[16:36] I think i was 19 when i was doing some who do i want to be who am i at work and and put father at, the not number one per se but like top three things that i was aiming at so that's been important to me at least from a what's the the list look like um perspective for a while I think too when I pretty soon after getting out of high school I started doing yoga again like started listening to you and getting into psychology midway through high school and I recognized after high school that like my dad's very cerebral I'm very cerebral but there's also, physicality and health are important so I started I started doing yoga to sort of kind of expressed that. I don't remember at what point I would have started to recognize that.
[17:40] Uh like in more recent years uh you mentioned like being lonely is like as bad for you as smoking and there's also uh i think some good data around um literally just being touched uh is important so i don't know when that sort of side of things i started to be more consciously aware of um but i think there are at least the roots of that even in those kind of late teens early 20s kind of like some some general awareness i wasn't i didn't think explicitly like women are only good for sex but i didn't necessarily have a clear both like conscious thought and emotional sort of draw to like it's really valuable to be in a relationship with somebody who's, a good person that you love and who loves you, Okay.
[18:35] So tell me a little bit about your parents' relationship.
[18:48] If I remember the timelines correctly I think my dad was 19 and my mom was 27 or 28 when they met, And they got married, I think, maybe five or so years after that. And then I was born eight or ten years after they met. Maybe not that long. My mom was like 35 when I was born, or 38 when I was born. So yeah, maybe that time. They're still together. They were the whole time I was growing up. I...
[19:30] Dad is, he's very, I don't know if narcissistic's the right word, like he's very cerebral and intellectual. If you have a conversation with him about emotions and how they work or like how relationships work beyond like you said you would take the trash out and you did or didn't do it kind of checkbox stuff. He like kind of he understands and is aware of that stuff but he doesn't tend to operate that way um my mom i think is, kind of more more typically a woman in that she inherently values and you can see that through through her actions like just being around people, being connected in a social network.
[20:28] Yeah. Okay. And how long have they been married now?
[20:45] Somewhere between 30 and 40 years, I think.
[20:50] Right and do you have uh siblings no hmm okay and um how was that sort of dealt with uh growing up uh in terms of like uh social life and and other kids and that kind of stuff, yeah um.
[21:15] I i grew up in like a residential development in the country so there were like there were there was like a block and there was like an area with with houses but then the town that we were like outside of was maybe a 15 minute drive a lot of kids that i went to school with a couple of them would be in town some of them would be in like farmhouses way out in the country so i had um had some like around the neighborhood um friends or relationships um friends who were like in my class in school almost all of them were a decent commute like couldn't bike ride or easily go there myself um i played sports pretty much my whole life growing up um sometimes through the school and younger years through like um like local like the towns baseball league or those sorts of things i was in cub scouts and boy scouts for various periods of time, so yeah i think uh largely through school there there were like um like sleepovers and like outside of school activities with friends and then doing sports and I think Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts, are kind of the main ways.
[22:43] And how close were you with friends?
[22:52] I think... It's been a while. Did you have sleepovers?
[23:01] Did you have giggle parties? Did you have whatever, laugh till you get goofy? Anything like that?
[23:07] Yeah, I definitely had that. Had sleepovers at other people's house for sure. My parents went through periods where we had a hoarder house. Um so like pathways through boxes to get places instead of like this is a hallway with paintings on the wall like a normal house um so there were like ebbs and flows to that um like months and years kinds of periods so i think we had three parties at our house for like friends of mine to my parents when i was growing up um and i think there i had a neighbor who was one of my best friends a couple doors down um and he like we'd hang out and he'd stay over sometimes um because we were pretty close so and his house also was kind of a order house so that didn't, uh scare scare him or his parents or my parents off but um that was definitely a limiting factor I think, to having people over and inviting them into MySpace more often.
[24:20] Where did the hoarding come from, mom or dad?
[24:25] I think it was a joint effort.
[24:30] And you don't have to tell me the details, but what occupation are your parents in?
[24:37] My mom was a dental hygienist and my dad is an IT consultant.
[24:43] Okay. And do you have, when did the hoarding stuff really begin to manifest in your life? How old were you?
[24:56] I don't remember specifically. I think what might have been the start of it getting worse was my dad started getting into a legal battle with the county. And that definitely, I think after that, my mom, what's the simple way to put it? I guess started having seasonal affective disorder. She definitely became a lot more reclusive because she was embarrassed about what was happening at various points in time and I think that also, I think it was after that that the hoarding type of behavior started for both of them, and I don't remember specifically but let's say what third grade, fourth grade maybe is when that started hmm.
[25:59] Um was it a very lengthy battle.
[26:02] It was eight years in total so i think it so eight years wrapped up yeah it like wrapped up shortly after maybe a year or two after i left school so maybe longer and just roughly.
[26:15] Was it what was the what was the content.
[26:19] The hoa that our our housing development um was under it did some hoa slash county politics stuff to basically kind of force through everyone getting um sewer systems and my dad um, was libertarian and had a rebellious streak and kind of a sharp guy and like solving logical puzzles so um and he had like a friend who was a lawyer so he just started getting into that's not right for my um my septic system works fine and i don't want to pay the 15 grand or whatever to get this done and they the government can't take my land kind of stuff so he uh yeah he decided to to sue him and try to stop that okay.
[27:08] And was your wife sorry was your mother on board with this kind of stuff.
[27:11] She is a lot more of a uh normie to use the the modern parlance so um yeah like cheerleader in high school still to this day will tell you stories about her high school time um was a very attractive young woman so kind of just not sure i guess what her her interest in in my dad because I think he was kind of weird, so to speak, when they met. But yeah, she definitely, like, she would follow the rules and check the boxes, I think. Or not for my dad not being that person.
[27:53] Okay. Okay. Got it. Do you know why they didn't have any other kids?
[28:02] My... My mom did have a miscarriage before I was born, and I think she had a non-carcinogenic, non-cancerous ovarian cyst and had one of her ovaries removed, so that was part of it. I think also, aside from those health factors.
[28:23] My impression is that she had a bit of a failure to launch, failure to grow up, sort of psychology early years. Um she was apparently also a bit rebellious in high school i found out um.
[28:43] I i didn't like walk during the graduation ceremony um because i got in trouble for smoking weed and um they didn't let me do that and i found out then senior high school that my mom also didn't go to her graduation high school ceremony um so had some rebellious streak as a teen went to college and ended up moving back into the house that she grew up in her parents moved down to another house in another state so she wasn't still living with them per se but she lived in that house i think until she met my dad and they got married, um and again if i remember the timelines correctly she was like 28 when they met um and he was significantly younger than her so i think there was some hesitance, from her to kind of commit to being and becoming an adult and um so i think that kind of, pushed the timeline out of like wanting to have kids and then obviously the biological side and her personal side starts to kick in as well okay.
[29:55] Got it and would you say that you were close to your parents.
[30:09] I think so there was definitely there were at least moments of closeness for sure there's also, like doing an ASUS core I can check the neglect box, and I think that's fair but there were definitely like hugs and kisses and I love you's And I'm genuinely feeling that, I think, mixed in with not listening to me, not trying to understand where I'm coming from, going, and kind of hiding in your various places and not playing with me and those sorts of things.
[30:49] And it's hard i know it's hard to sort of gauge these things but sort of minus 10 total indifference plus 10 and sort of good good good um engagement where would your parents fall on that spectrum overall uh four a plus four right yeah okay got it got it, all right and did it change over time was it fairly consistent or some parents are better when the kids are younger, some parents are better later on. Was it fairly, consistent over time or did it kind of come and go?
[31:33] I... With my mom... I think it was fairly consistent, not disengaged, not super engaged. There was, again, that drop-off where kind of around the time that that court case thing started, she started being more reclusive in general. Yeah, I think it was probably fairly consistent with both of them, maybe kind of more engaged when I was younger. I do remember getting, even in fourth or fifth grade, but into middle school, kind of feeling like my dad's still trying to play with me like I'm a little kid. In retrospect, I think fifth grade is still okay to kind of like play like you're a little kid. Not like a four-year-old, but you can still horse around and stuff. But yeah, starting to feel like, oh, I'm too old for dad to keep hanging around. And by high school, that wasn't as much of an issue because I went to school like 40 minutes away and kind of started to develop my own friends and stuff like that.
[32:50] Okay. Now, when you sort of hit puberty and you went through the big changes and you got interested in girls and so on, how did your parents respond or react to that process?
[32:59] There... I don't think there was ever a specific and general conversation. Definitely not about this is what sex is and how it works. But also I think about, hey, you're growing up and what does it mean to like girls and have a family and all that kind of stuff. Didn't have a conversation like that. But when I had that eighth grade girlfriend, she had a bit of a reputation, so to speak. So there was some specific conversation about mom wasn't too happy about that. And yeah, I think that was about it. I think there might have been other kind of conversations, but there wasn't nothing that kind of stood out as like, oh, yeah, we had this talk and I remember my parents. I learned this from them about that.
[34:18] Okay. What do you think of the fact that you were kind of left to figure things out by yourself in what is, you know, arguably the most complex area of human relations and certainly the highest stakes? If you get it wrong things go very badly in your life as a whole what do you think of your parents' lack of communication about these things.
[34:43] I think that's not the kind of parent that I want to be, at this point, I do feel a little bit of anger about it like right now in general, I think having done enough therapy and thought about that. And I'm also like, I've been technically an adult, um, and physically an adult for a long time now. It's like, I think I'm mostly settled on, yeah, that they should have taught me more about that. And that's not okay, but that's who they are. And, um, i mean it would be nice if it was different sorry go ahead it'd be nice if it was different but i like i i don't don't expect that they wouldn't be given history and conversations that we've had and the thinking and trying to talk to them that i've done.
[35:50] Oh so you've talked to them about these areas where they could have been deficient.
[35:55] Not specifically about dating but i've i've pushed other important conversations about our relationship specifically and um not made progress that i'd be happy with there so it's sort of like i guess by proxy like i i wouldn't bring this up to them now i don't think because i've seen how these conversations have gone in other arenas and don't expect to find Sorry.
[36:23] What do you mean by that?
[36:31] As a teen, being in the kind of personal, emotional situation in life where doing drugs was attractive to me and fairly quickly realizing that something's not okay here.
[36:50] And like listening to you early on about you don't get a pass to not be a good person just because you're biologically related I like started, pushing the issue of like hey I don't like where our relationship's at I don't like where my life's at something's wrong here I want to talk about what's going on didn't, in those early days it was, argumentative and dismissive and didn't really sit down and have a heart-to-heart conversation where there's some new understanding or, at least consistently like let's work on this together and then have that progress get made. And then when I eventually moved out and started living on my own and had some of the pressure of being 19 and not going to college and needing to sort my life situation out and not be a young adult still living with his parents. Got some of that distance some of the, tension and kind of chaos personally and again with our relationship living together starts to subside like brought these up or brought hey I'm not happy with where our relationship's at here's what I think here's what I'd like what do you think.
[38:16] Had maybe gotten a little bit more reception from them on that but still not, I had a conversation where it feels like they've kind of embraced it and made a change or even tried very hard to get deeper into that.
[38:39] Okay. Have they retired yet?
[38:43] My mom has. My dad hasn't.
[38:53] And how would you characterize your relationship at the moment.
[39:07] For maybe like five years ago for a few years I used the term armistice I don't, That doesn't feel exactly right now, but I don't have a good new word that I've come up for it. I don't talk to them that much.
[39:36] We would go on holiday vacation every year since I was a baby down to the condo that used to be my grandparents, and now it's my parents. So I've still done that. I moved away from where I grew up three, almost four years ago now, when I still lived in the city area that I grew up in. I'd see them about once a month when I moved away for a couple of years. I talked to my mom maybe once a month or so. And then last year, I made a somewhat conscious decision to not try to make a point to call my mom every month just to see how that felt and how they responded. So I didn't talk to them, I think, a couple times last year and then spend a couple weeks at the family condo. And it's about the same this year. last year.
[40:40] So it's like the communication level yeah I think, the last thing that I sort of left them with from that vacation was I still, not happy with I would like our relationship to be better, but I feel like I've put in, all the effort I care to put in to making it better on my side for now and like i'd really like to see you guys do something to at least try it doesn't i don't know what would.
[41:15] You what would you like to see them do.
[41:20] This is really, I don't know, the mechanical, I just don't have another idea thing that I suggested to them is try going to therapy and seeing if that shifts something for you. And you can reach out and tell me about it, or maybe you'll come with some new thought or idea or emotional expression. Because, yeah, I don't know. I guess I don't know. I still feel a little bit in between, I think I mostly accepted they are who they are and they're probably not going to change I don't know that I'm emotionally like yeah that sucks but it's been whatever 20 years and I don't really care that much about it so there's maybe still a little bit of hope or maybe still some grief or some anger or something to process there but it was kind of genuine when I told them I feel like I've tried to have these kind of conversations with you guys for years, and pretty much all the energy for that comes from me and then you'll say, you want things to be better but then I give you like, here's a thing you can try to do and then you don't do it so I don't know, I don't feel like I can keep putting in effort when you guys aren't.
[42:39] And why do you think they don't do what you ask them to do?
[42:50] I think both of them, the first thought that comes to mind is that I don't think either of them have a strong sense of.
[43:08] Being, I don't know, being able to, affect a close relationship for the better. I don't, my dad's pretty cagey about talking about his personal history, but from what I've gathered from him and a couple of his siblings, it seems like his mom was pretty terrible, like screaming, punchy, kind of frightening, loud, abusive woman. And his dad, I don't think was that level, but obviously enabled by not stopping that um so i think he grew up in a pretty chaotic keep your head down, stay isolated to protect yourself kind of environment um and so i think that and i feel like i see some of that passed on to me is like just an assumption of you can you can argue with people and try to outwill them or you can just completely disconnect and forget about it stop caring about it but there's not an in-between space of like negotiating to build something together or fix something together right.
[44:23] Okay it it is a certain lack of caring at its foundation right because if you really care about someone like if my wife really wants me to do something or change something then i would really work to do or change that because i care.
[44:36] About her want her to be happy.
[44:38] And so on she doesn't make unreasonable requests and you certainly doesn't sound like you're making unreasonable requests so it could it be i mean not as simple as but could it be just like a lack of uh caring and i don't mean like some maybe they don't have.
[44:54] The ability.
[44:54] At this point in their life but something like that.
[44:56] I think um i think that's fair if we just take like behavior is the most important like highest signal um sort of way to to suss this out yeah it's like if you cared enough you would try harder um and part of the proof Sorry.
[45:17] This is not a try thing. I mean, if you say, mom, dad, I feel like our communication is not great, and I would really appreciate it if you'd go and do some therapy. I mean, you just go and do the therapy. That's not a try thing. You know, if it would be like, dad, I need you to become an expert chess grandmaster, then he would have to try to do that, if that makes sense. But just asking saying to someone can you go to therapy because that would really help our relationship uh they would just go to therapy or not now maybe there'd be different levels of trying in therapy but it's not a trying thing like they would just go to therapy now again maybe it would work maybe it wouldn't maybe they do the homework or maybe they wouldn't but if if you were to say to me hey can we can we meet at seven o'clock to go and see a movie and i would say well i can try, Well, that would be kind of confusing, right? Yeah. Are you going to be there or not, right? Are you going to agree to be there or not? So if you're asking me to do something, can you meet me at seven for the movie? And I said, well, I guess I could try. That would be baffling. It's not quite the right word, if that makes sense.
[46:35] I think, and this is part of, I think, some of the maybe final sorting it out on my end, is emotionally getting clear on this point. Because I think what you're saying is fair. It's not like, can you try to get to the moon? Well, there's a lot of rocket science involved, and I'm not sure I'm going to be able to pull that off in the next 10 or 20 years. But I can see for them in part because I think this is part of the musical chairs kind of pattern for me where, it is like an emotional battle for them it's not as simple as make an appointment or show up to the grocery store on Sunday at 10am there is like this might actually, force up some emotions that aren't comfortable or press the matter of like where we're at and where you've been.
[47:36] But that's different from just going to therapy. Right, so how you deal, with what's going on in therapy is a different matter. Agreeing to go to therapy because it's important to you is what I'm talking about.
[47:57] Mm-hmm.
[48:02] And i i think it's worth spending a minute or two on this distinction.
[48:08] Like it's easy.
[48:09] Going to therapy there's not a trying it and yeah going to therapy you make a phone call right it's like going to the dentist it's easy you make a phone call and you go to therapy right you maybe call a couple of people until you get someone you kind of gel with or vibe with or i don't know whatever the words are these days but uh going to therapy that's easy, you just you just go to therapy, now you know what comes up in therapy blah blah blah that's it's sort of like um uh if if you have a parent who is uh very unhealthy right and just unhealthy okay well uh then you say to the parent hey uh i need you to you know get a personal trainer go to the gym like whatever you need to do and start exercising because you know that's it's really unpleasant if if you don't and then i gotta sort of take care of you and all this that and the other right so so going to the gym, like just choosing a gym paying for the gym going to the gym that's easy if that makes sense, now when you go to the gym maybe you have a tough time working out maybe it's bringing up some stuff for you, like whatever it is, right? But that's a different matter though. These two are not the same or, and they're not even really close, if that makes sense.
[49:33] If you say to your parents, I want you to go to therapy, it's easy for them to go to therapy. You just literally pick up. I mean, they've got time, right? That's why I asked if they're retired, right? So they've got time. They can make the phone call, right? They can go to therapy because that is an action. You're asking them for an action. Now, asking for a goal is a different matter, right? Dad, can you become a really excellent guitarist? Well, that's different, right? That's a goal. But you're asking them for an action. Right? And actions are eminently achievable. Goals, that's a different matter. Like if you were to say to them, I need you to become really emotionally skilled, well, that's a goal, right? And that's a different thing. But if you're to say to them, I just need you to go to therapy, that is an action. And actions are a whole different animal actions are eminently achievable, they they are easy does this sort of make sense.
[50:47] Yeah yeah it's um.
[50:49] So you're you're putting the two together though right and you're saying to your parents uh i need you to go to therapy to become very emotionally skilled right or something like that right.
[51:02] I didn't that in this latest round um because i i know what you're getting at and i've done this for a while i didn't even put that on i said.
[51:13] Something to paraphrase therapy to achieve some goal right you don't want them to go to therapy just to waste time and money right it would be to achieve some kind of goal i.
[51:24] Think that's the the desire but i i said something to the effect of i don't know that this is going to fix anything but this is like go try going to.
[51:35] Therapy and let's see if something.
[51:37] Happens and just.
[51:38] No i get that i get that i mean this is not None of that gainsays what I'm saying.
[51:43] Okay.
[51:47] So, it would be two things. So, let's say you're a big fan of Chinese opera. I'm not. I really dislike Chinese opera. But, yes, so you're a big fan of Chinese opera. And you would say to me, hey, man, I really want you to come and try and appreciate this Chinese opera thing. Right? And you would say, listen, I'll pay for your ticket, but it would really mean a lot to me. If you came down and you tried to like you came to watch some Chinese opera okay so the action is I come down and I sit, in the audience with you and I watch and listen to Chinese opera can I do that.
[52:32] That's an action right i can do that it's as easy as falling off a log i can do the action, no problem agreed yep now if you were to say and i want you to really like chinese opera well that's a whole different thing isn't it, and the two are not the same now one is necessary but not sufficient for the other so i'm obviously not going to really get to like or appreciate Chinese opera if I never go, right? Like I have to go to Chinese opera in order to develop or at least listen to it in order to have the potential to develop some kind of appreciation, right? So when you say to your parents, I want you to go to therapy, it is with a goal, right? You would invite me to go and watch Chinese opera with the goal of having me like and appreciate it, right?
[53:35] Yeah.
[53:36] Now, I can tell you, I can go, right? I can tell you, yes, I can go to Chinese opera. I cannot tell you that as a result of going to Chinese opera, I will really learn to love it. Because one of those is a voluntary, controllable action. The other is not a controllable goal, if that makes sense.
[54:09] Yeah.
[54:10] So the reason I'm saying this is if you say to your parents, I want you to go to therapy, they can do that tomorrow they can go to therapy now whether this achieves the big goals that you i mean i don't know but it's necessary, i mean they could go to uh they could go to the um therapy and they could spend their whole time arguing with therapists or disagreeing or this is stupid like whatever right in the same way that i I could go to Chinese opera, you know, stick my fingers in my ears and yell loudly how trashy it was or whatever, right? Some, some declassé thing, right? But it certainly is the case that I can control whether I go to opera or not, right?
[55:02] And that's my issue with your parents is that they are not willing. To just go to therapy which they can do very very easily right, what would come out of that is hard to tell but we know that nothing's going to come out of it if they don't even go right, So that's sort of, I'm sorry for the Venkthi, like that's sort of what I'm trying to get across.
[55:45] So why wouldn't they go? Look, they've had mental health issues, right? Hoarding is bad, right?
[55:54] Yeah.
[55:55] I mean, hoarding, especially that's why I asked how old, right, how old you were. Because hoarding is particularly bad for kids because it's scary. And by the way it's also dangerous and unhygienic right.
[56:07] And i'm.
[56:10] Sure that at some point or you may have expressed expressed some discontent with regards to the pigsty you were living in right i mean how bad did.
[56:19] It get what.
[56:19] Sort of stuff are we talking about here.
[56:20] Yeah um i forget this actually came up recently it it was never particularly dirty like there wasn't just like moldy food sitting in a bowl next to the couch in a living room but it was definitely like, there are piles of boxes and not just like some old mail got left by the door for a month but like one box gets put down some other stuff gets put on top of it like dining room becomes unusable, kitchen is functional enough but the seating like um what do they call it the breakfast nook, table is not usable there's a path to the couch um every every like hangout space you're amongst piles of things, so i'm not sure i'm not sure what the official uh hoarder scale so it wasn't like.
[57:17] There was mold and it wasn't spores and and bacteria and and growths and all of that so it wasn't.
[57:23] Yeah Physically dangerous.
[57:24] Is that right?
[57:26] No, I mean, yeah, the closest is maybe like some piles of boxes that have fallen over, but nothing like that happened. And it wasn't like insects are infesting things. It was usually paper or just like a bunch of this thing was on sale. So we bought five of them and didn't need one of them.
[57:52] Okay and i mean what percentage of the house what percentage of the room could you see the floor like what percentage was covered and so on.
[58:05] Maybe like, I don't know, let's say 30%, whatever's like, again, it was usable. Some rooms got completely set off, but we had a pretty good-sized house, didn't need access to the third bedroom or whatever. But yeah, every room had stuff piled up in it. And in a lot of cases, again, it wasn't like, this is a hallway with maybe a bench to put your shoes on. It's, here's a path through boxes in a hallway, or you're stepping over something to get to the couch. But then, like, there's foot space in front of the couch.
[58:49] And, sorry, you said, which parent was more susceptible to this mental problem?
[58:57] They both contributed I'm not sure, who maybe instigated, my mom like my mom will definitely have mail from years ago that's definitely not needed and they both like, getting stuff on sale so there was definitely like buying way more things things we didn't really need. So I don't know, it feels maybe about equal.
[59:32] And sort of how long did this reign of crap, um, last? Is it still, I mean, it's not as bad an issue now. Is that right?
[59:41] Yeah, it's not. There's definitely still my, uh, there's still some versions of that. Like when I go down to this family condo, I, um, in part reactionary reactionarily and part, um, just choosing to be a different person. Like I don't put stuff on the floor that doesn't belong on the floor. But when I got onto that family condo, it's definitely not anywhere near as bad as like paths or boxes, but there's still just like, why is there just piles of paper and these wires sitting on this desk that could just either be trashed or gotten away? Like there's still little bits and pieces of that.
[1:00:19] And do they acknowledge it as a problem as a whole?
[1:00:26] My mom will. She will complain about my dad doing it. He doesn't seem to care that much. And my mom still does it on the herself. And she'll come up with excuses for why she needs to be keeping these piles of papers in her space.
[1:00:49] Is that a mail from years ago, right? Yeah.
[1:00:52] Okay.
[1:00:52] So they haven't acknowledged it as a problem other than it's a mild annoyance to them when the other person does it, which is, of course, not a massive amount of self-knowledge, right?
[1:01:04] Yeah. Okay.
[1:01:11] Okay. All right. Do they acknowledge that then they haven't acknowledged any particular failures in parenting is that right.
[1:01:28] They have started to in bits and pieces, but not in a meaningful way. The general pattern is my mom will, she'll emotionally react to me bringing up some interpersonal issue and pretty quickly, make it about she's sorry and she was not feeling well and this XYZ thing about her do they track.
[1:02:02] Sorry go ahead please finish your thought.
[1:02:04] Yeah, and then on my dad's side, he will tend to either start to get argumentative or just kind of dissociate, like stop responding, stop talking in the middle of a conversation.
[1:02:21] Right. Okay. All right. And have they tracked any of your goals as a whole? Like if you want to get married and have kids and you're in your 30s and this hasn't happened and doesn't seem to be anywhere close to happening, do they track that at all? Do they follow that it's not happening in the way that you want or is anything like that going on?
[1:02:53] It's not going on. And before I give my immediate reaction, I will say this points back to your going to therapy as an action and they could just do it. My mom has tried that to some degree, and I've just not been, and I remove the word just, I have not been that receptive to it because I didn't feel like sharing that stuff. So I think she's kind of less and less been asking about that.
[1:03:24] So what does she ask? How does she bring it up?
[1:03:31] When she would more regularly do that, it would usually be about friends or dating, not so much work and career. And she'd ask about how's this friend that she knew that I had from high school or whatever. Or are you dating anyone and maybe I'd give her a little bit of information if there was any on that front.
[1:03:59] Okay. And nothing larger than that. So just a couple of questions that are kind of easily batted off. Is that right?
[1:04:08] Batted off or answered like, hey, have you talked to so-and-so in a while? Yeah, he's XYZ. okay great end of conversation hey are you dating anyone no, okay end of conversation.
[1:04:25] Huh, I mean how different is that going to be from your ideal parenting.
[1:04:50] I would like to, be a lot more engaged and involved and have my kids want me to be engaged and involved in their lives like that.
[1:05:10] Okay. All right. I mean, I'm sure that your parents, if they were on the call, and I would say to them, you realize that being hoarders means it's almost, it's impossible for your kid to bring a date home. Like you were crippling your son's ability to date. What do you think they would say about that?
[1:05:43] If we presume the first thought that I had is the one that they would have, they would say, well, when I was younger, and my grade school, middle school was in the town 20 minutes away versus the city 40 minutes away. When I was younger I didn't seem that interested or like I wanted to be dating someone or maybe I would have been too young for that kind of thing or we should go out for ice cream or do something, I'll pick you up and take you to the whatever the pool or something versus, 12 year olds 14 year olds coming and being in one of their houses.
[1:06:33] Right so they would just kind of hedge and dodge right, and why do you think it would be impossible for them to say you know what in hindsight that really wasn't ideal because it was kind of tough for you to bring dates over it was also kind of tough for you to bring kids over as a whole because it's kind of embarrassing right.
[1:06:53] Why do i think it's possible um i think my for for my mom it's i don't know let's just the kind of blanket statement call it like the narcissistic thing she she is emotional and she understand like she implicitly intuitively kind of feels other people i think to some degree but it all gets translated into being about her, and i think my dad can will intellectually comprehend the contents of a message or conversation like that but emotionally if it's anywhere near anything that he's uncomfortable or unresolved about he he'll be pretty guarded okay.
[1:07:47] So i appreciate that and i just i know we've been doing a deep dive and we're almost done uh can you just tell me a little bit about dating in your 20s. You said you had one six-month relationship. And was there anything else that I need to know about that?
[1:08:04] Yeah, that was mostly just sleeping together and maybe going out and doing a couple things, but we did not really integrate into each other's lives. And when she asked for that, I contemplated it for a bit and then broke things off with her.
[1:08:30] This is the six-month one, right?
[1:08:32] Yeah.
[1:08:32] And what was it that she was looking for?
[1:08:38] I think she said specifically she wanted to properly date me.
[1:08:45] As opposed to you just using each other for sex and a little bit of companionship. Is that right?
[1:08:50] Yeah.
[1:08:51] Okay. And so this went on for six months that you basically were just friends with benefits kind of thing?
[1:08:58] Yep.
[1:08:59] Okay. And she said she wanted to have a proper relationship. And you said, basically get lost, right?
[1:09:11] Yeah that's the the trite way of putting it i was a little more sensitive well but i mean that's the effect of right yeah i mean when when she.
[1:09:18] Says uh when she says i want a date and you say uh no then you're basically just saying well no i just i just want sex, yeah okay got it all right i.
[1:09:35] Did after the last time we met and i said that to her i did, cry a bit, which is not to make me look better because it's still as bad as you put it but also at least part of me kind of recognized, that wasn't who I wanted to be or a situation I wanted to be in I did something, that wasn't with integrity.
[1:10:04] So tell me a bit more about that, I'm not sure what you mean by that Yeah.
[1:10:09] So it, like, again, looking at the behavior and choices, like, I definitely slept with a woman who I was not interested in dating and didn't see from pretty much the beginning as somebody that I would want to date and get married to. And I made those choices and we engaged in that behavior and suited for a while as well. But I didn't I didn't have like some brush it off or alpha sort of mentality of like yeah I just you go out and you bang women because that's what successful guys do kind of thing. During or then after when I ended it I wasn't like well okay well that was fun or oh yeah well screw her because she wanted to try to have a real relationship with me here.
[1:11:06] And what was it that you disliked about her?
[1:11:19] She, the shallow thing that is the honest first thing that came to mind is she wasn't that attractive. The slightly less shallow second thing that comes to mind is she, sorry, way to put it, I don't know, kind of inert. Which i think was attractive in it this is this will be easy to have a friends with benefits situation because she won't put pressure to demand more from me or from that but as far as like somebody i actually would genuinely love and care about that's not somebody with a little more figure.
[1:12:00] I'm sorry what do you mean by she was in her i'm.
[1:12:03] Just like at like passive like oh what do you what do you want to do and i don't know like women like when men decide what to where to go for dinner they have the options but just like kind of everything was go along to get along and not, still up with any sort of substance or oh let's let's go do this or oh i disagree with that let's let's figure out how we think about these things okay.
[1:12:31] Got it all right so um you told her you didn't want a relationship um and i mean that's that's rough on her right.
[1:12:41] And.
[1:12:42] Did you i mean how did you feel about that basically saying you're fine to be used for sex but i don't want to spend any actual time with you.
[1:12:52] I was sad about it for a bit.
[1:13:06] Sorry but i'm not sure if you're going to say more.
[1:13:08] Yeah i wasn't sure either um yeah i was sad i was sad about it for a bit and it's, not still not a good thing that i did um, and I think for the most part I moved on and didn't think about it much thinking about it again now I feel, a little bit of sadness and some part of me is kind of trying to shut that down too.
[1:13:48] Okay um what is it that you are trying to um shut down.
[1:13:52] So you're feeling, sad about, what i did interesting or what happened go on, And there's, I think there's a part of me that doesn't want to feel sad about it because that part doesn't want to change. And there's another part of me that, thinks I tend to be sad and mopey more than, excited or invigorated or angry or driven and doesn't like to feel sad because it seems like I'm just going to keep being a mopey sad guy if I keep feeling mopey and sad.
[1:15:11] Okay but tell me tell me how many understand the sadness, was she was she less intelligent than you.
[1:15:29] Not not noticeably so okay.
[1:15:32] And how do you know that i'm not disagreeing with you i'm just.
[1:15:34] She was a, she worked on her math, masters, I think, of physics. And just between that and talking to her, I don't know, it's maybe like whatever, a 125 to a 135, if that. But not clearly like, oh, this is an average intelligent person who I will really get frustrated with not being able to have a deep conversation with.
[1:16:05] And did you have deep conversations with her?
[1:16:17] I think we, laid at the surface of them but i wanted to stay emotionally distant so didn't really deep dive and.
[1:16:31] Why did you want to stay emotionally distant? Because, I mean, you gave me this impression of this sort of inert woman, but she's actually doing a master's in physics, right? That's not a note, is it?
[1:16:47] No, maybe, I don't know, maybe passive is a better way to put it.
[1:16:51] No, it's not passive either. I mean, you can't be passive and going for your master's in physics, right?
[1:16:59] Yeah.
[1:17:01] So that's interesting.
[1:17:05] Maybe to not find the right adjective for it, but maybe we can find it after this. As a better example, if I started on a topic like what's the relationship between who we are as adults and our childhood experiences, if I talked for 10 minutes, she would just let me talk, and I could kind of dominate a conversation like that. Does that make sense?
[1:17:38] Right. So she wasn't particularly philosophical, which would be part of the STEM thing, right? I mean, if she talked about a lot of physics, you wouldn't have a lot to add either, would you?
[1:17:50] Yeah.
[1:17:54] So, I mean, that's specialty stuff, right? I mean, there's stuff my wife talks about that, or my daughter talks about that I'm not particularly good at or knowledgeable about. And I'll just listen and try to, you know, maybe contribute where I can or whatever. But you're not the same as her. She's not the same as you, of course, right? So the fact that you'd have some stuff that you preferred to talk about and that she didn't have as much to add to uh is um the same for both of you right yeah okay so i don't quite understand how that's bad but i'm i what was wrong with her do you think that you didn't want i mean she's obviously very intelligent. She's certainly interested in philosophy. She's willing to sort of listen to it and so on. She has initiative. She has ambition. And this doesn't mean you date everyone who's got a master's in physics or is aiming for that. But I'm trying to sort of figure out, because when you said, you know, she was kind of inert or whatever, I don't think that's necessarily true. So what do you think was missing?
[1:19:02] Yeah, and I can see how, I tried to put a label on it to protect myself emotionally, I think I think, The next thing that comes to mind for me was I wasn't attracted to her, but I did want somebody to sleep with.
[1:19:33] I'm sorry, but was she physically unattractive? What was it that was unattractive?
[1:19:38] I don't know. She's like five. um i've had uh emotional i've been an emotional eater so depending on the state that i'm in i'm i don't know sometimes maybe i'm extra fat in a six but on my best days i'm a seven maybe an eight.
[1:19:58] Okay so she was not now did she was it stuff she could control uh i mean was she overweight or or flabby or you know no exercise or was it something like she couldn't control like her hair and her face.
[1:20:13] She didn't exercise that much i don't think she's she's very like skinny and not i don't think she worked out that much of it all but so she was slender.
[1:20:24] But she didn't work out.
[1:20:24] Yeah and i think uh there's also like stuff she couldn't control like her face yes.
[1:20:33] I mean you can't really blame someone for that right.
[1:20:35] No it's not her fault yeah.
[1:20:37] Of course of course okay so um there's stuff that she could have done a little bit more. Uh, and then there's stuff that she, uh, couldn't, couldn't have done. Right. Okay. Uh, all right. And, um, how did you guys get along in terms of values? Did you both value sort of similar things? Um, I mean, I assume that with regards to philosophy, you value the kind of stuff we talk about on this show. Uh, was she relatively positive with that kind of stuff?
[1:21:09] I think uh relatively as the qualifier yeah yes i.
[1:21:15] Mean relatively right i mean uh.
[1:21:17] Yeah well i i guess meaning like i didn't again because i think of what i was aiming for in that relationship i didn't i didn't like really press to get into like where's where's an area where maybe there's potential for disagreement and we could we could figure out if we can navigate that so i didn't, didn't really try to dig for hey when it comes to, the really important things in life, are we aligned how do we interact in that space.
[1:21:46] And how old were you and how old was she when you were dating.
[1:21:55] Yeah I was 25 or 26 and I think she was like a couple years younger okay.
[1:22:01] Got it now was that the last long relationship that you had.
[1:22:05] And that was the only, pretty much the only long relationship I've had.
[1:22:11] And what's happened since then?
[1:22:14] After that, went on a few more dates and slept with some other women, mostly from dating apps. And then I moved cities. And the people on the date, for some logistical reasons, the dating apps didn't work as well in that new city, so I used that as an excuse to stop leaning on those and go figure out how to talk to people, including women in real life. I think, did I go? I don't know that I went on I went on maybe a couple dates and when I moved cities I went on maybe a couple dates from a dating app and then stopped doing those and I don't there was one, one woman we never really went on a date, but we did end up half sleeping together once and then another woman who I also slept with for six months or so but didn't really date well properly or I don't think I dated many people out of a couple of dating updates and those two people.
[1:23:43] Right, okay. Okay, so is that similar to the relationship with the physicist?
[1:23:50] Yeah yeah it was not some something that i got into thinking this is maybe a woman who i would like and want to marry okay.
[1:23:59] Got it got it so you you kind of use women for sex.
[1:24:02] I have.
[1:24:05] Well what else is there, And what else have you described? I'm not trying to be a jerk. I'm just trying to look at something I've missed.
[1:24:17] Well, part of doing this call is I want to change my ways.
[1:24:23] Right. Now, do you know what was missing? Hang on. Do you know what was missing when I was asking you how you felt about how you had dealt with women? You talked about being sad.
[1:24:36] How they felt.
[1:24:37] Yeah. why do you think that was not there?
[1:24:49] I when I said that and you asked that I felt and still feel some anxiety.
[1:24:58] Go on.
[1:25:00] Anxiety and a little bit of a like dissociation it's kind of one of my patterns for uncomfortable feelings.
[1:25:09] Okay so why do you think that you don't feel any guilt about how you've used women, because it's it's hurt them right, and it hurts women in a way that it doesn't really hurt men as much yeah because now the woman has to look back and say i thought there was a relationship potential with this guy he had contempt for me and just used me for my flesh yeah like a like a toilet yeah, I mean, that's really harmful to women, right? And so, I mean, imagine that you become a father, right? And you have a beloved daughter, right? And your daughter, you know, dates some guy. She really wants a relationship with him. But then the moment she says, can we do something other than have sex? He dumps her.
[1:26:04] How would you feel about that with regards to your beloved daughter I would feel angry at that guy.
[1:26:23] I would not like him.
[1:26:24] Okay, and what would you say to him, if you had the opportunity?
[1:26:38] That's a really shitty thing to do.
[1:26:43] Well, and clearly you'd be taking advantage of a woman who did not have any protection, right? She didn't have any wisdom. She didn't have any adults, parents looking out for her. She didn't have any brothers. She didn't have anyone who was looking out for her and trying to make sure that she was kept safe in a fairly predatory world, right? So you were a lion, in a sense, taking a lamb. Because you know because if if if you had a daughter and your daughter was dating some guy and your daughter was like you know he only ever wants to get together to have sex what would you say to your daughter.
[1:27:25] That's not somebody you should have any sort of relationship with.
[1:27:30] Okay i mean would you be more emphatic than that.
[1:27:43] I don't know.
[1:27:44] I would. He's a selfish user. He's an exploiter. He's older than you. And, he's counting on the fact that you're not going to have anyone giving you good advice and keeping you safe. And he's a dangerous guy. He's predatory, in a way. Because, I mean, you kind of scarred these women just to get your rocks off, right? That's pretty bad. Now, listen, please understand, I'm not, you know, being some big moralist here. I mean, Lord knows I haven't always been the ideal boyfriend and all of that. So I'm not trying to, you know, launch any big moral missiles to you from some height of perfection. But we do have to be honest about our capacity for being kind of an asshole, right?
[1:28:56] Yeah.
[1:28:59] And I think if, and you're still doing it, right? I mean, you did the six month thing with another woman you just used for sex. You did that just more recently, right? You did it with the physicist girl in your 20s, and then you just did it again, right?
[1:29:16] Yeah, that ended, I think, roughly the beginning of last year, and I haven't slept with anybody since then.
[1:29:26] Good. And you've been listening to what I do for 15 years, right? So, do you have any excuse?
[1:29:38] Not a valid one.
[1:29:40] Okay, what's your invalid one?
[1:29:55] The best one, which maybe has a little bit of validity to it, is I'm worried that I don't know, I haven't figured out how to find something in a woman that I'm drawn to and want to pursue about her that is more than that lustful feeling. And again, I've done drugs, so I'm very aware of the devil's deal of, well, just go after the lust and maybe you can help something good comes out of that. And most of the time, if not all the time, it doesn't. but if i don't but if i if i turn away from that then i i will just become one of the what do they call them in japan the grass eaters or whatever and just give up on having any sort of relationship.
[1:31:09] Okay so so you've been dating now you're in your early 30s you started middle-aged teens, right? So let's just say 15, 17 years, right? And you've yet to find a woman. Do you want to do anything other than just bone and discard?
[1:31:30] I found... I found bits and pieces of that with people, and I think generally been afraid to get closer and go deeper when I've spotted that.
[1:31:55] Okay. So you know ahead of time that you're not going to get close to these women, right?
[1:32:06] The ones that I've just slept with, yeah.
[1:32:08] Well, I mean, or any women. I mean, have you been close to any women?
[1:32:20] Not for an extended period of time other than the varying levels of closeness that i had with my mom, well i mean let's not count your mom okay now if we're talking purely in the romantic sense not for any extended period of time okay.
[1:32:37] I'm happy to if you if you're going to lead me into fogland, I'm going to turn on the sonar. So what does a non-extended period of time of closeness mean? Help me understand what that refers to.
[1:32:53] Maybe certain conversations, maybe in moments over the course of a few months.
[1:33:03] Listen, I don't do maybe because this is your life.
[1:33:05] Yeah.
[1:33:06] Right? So either it's happened or it hasn't. I don't know what maybe means. You know, if you say to me, hey, Stef, were you born in Ireland? And I would say, maybe. What would that mean? You made a claim and again I'm not trying to hassle you I'm genuinely curious right you made a claim, and you said that you've been close to women for non-extended periods of time and I'm just understanding what that means and then if you go maybe maybe I have doubts that there's any truth in what you're saying.
[1:33:49] I think maybe, sorry.
[1:33:54] That's kind of funny, right? I don't do maybes. First response, maybe. Anyway, go on. It's kind of funny. Go on.
[1:34:00] To, yeah, to be clear and add some nuance that might also be dodging the question. Like the clear yes or no is no.
[1:34:11] No, bro, it's not a nuance thing.
[1:34:13] Okay.
[1:34:13] You said you've been close to women for non-extended periods of time, and I'm just asking what that means. There's no nuance. Oh okay right if i say you say if you say to me Stef have you been working out for long and i say well no not very long and and then you say well what does that mean and i say well i need a lot of nuance in this it's like no it's just like a week a month like it's just an answer you've been close to a woman but not for an extended period of time i just want to know what that means were you close for a week a month i don't know what that means and i'm just asking.
[1:34:43] Okay to use the the workout metaphor it's like have you worked out yeah i like lifted some 10 pound weights a couple times over the years.
[1:34:52] Okay so i'm just asking for an example let's say there's an example i lifted some 10 pound weights so i'm asking for an example of when you were close to a woman for a non-extended period of time like what does that mean what did you do what did you say what happened, and look if it if you were just saying look if you're just saying something and it's not really a thing that happened that's totally fine i don't want to waste your time or money i just want to know when you say.
[1:35:29] Yeah i've ended.
[1:35:29] Period of time i don't.
[1:35:31] Know what that means i think the perk for the purposes of let's be clear and stop fogging let's just say i haven't.
[1:35:39] Okay i don't know what let's just say i haven't means i mean have you i haven't you being.
[1:35:43] Close okay to try to try to answer your last question and and admitting up front that this is foggy I've I can recall a particular woman who, I don't remember a specific conversation in the specific content but having conversations that I felt like we got into deeper conversation and that was a felt thing not just like okay Okay, and so what happened with that woman?
[1:36:17] I mean, was she available for dating or friendship or anything like that?
[1:36:26] No, no, she was pretty toxic.
[1:36:31] She was toxic? So you were close and you had good conversations, but she was toxic in what way? okay so.
[1:36:41] So maybe the what i'm calling closeness is sort of uh some sort of drug like it felt one way but this is just.
[1:36:49] Okay did you you just maybied me again misleading listen let's let's just i mean let's just cut the crap you've never been close to a woman no okay good let's just like it's this kind of getting embarrassing right and it's fine listen we all we all hedge and fudge okay all right So, you're in your 30s, right? Early 30s. When do you think it will be impossible for you to have a healthy relationship with a woman?
[1:37:21] 10 to 15 years from now.
[1:37:24] Really? I don't think that's true at all, brother. And I say this like really wanting to help. I really do. Oh, my God. Are you kidding me? Okay, so you're saying in your mid-40s, it might be too late.
[1:37:41] Yes that's what i.
[1:37:42] Okay so you need to listen and i'm sorry that you haven't had this but i think this is what you're calling me for so i've done a lot of listening here's where i get blunt if that's all right with you yeah.
[1:37:51] Let's do it.
[1:37:52] Yeah okay so you haven't had the view from outside and i got this from your very first message that you sent to me which is it's all very internal ruminations and i think and i feel and right you i don't think you have a view of yourself from the outside no okay what's your favorite female name favorite female yeah xena warrior princess is taken but what's your favorite female name ashley ashley lovely name lovely name okay so let's say that ashley is a a strong moral healthy mature woman right, yep and ashley comes into your life okay what does ashley see that she's going to want to commit to that she's going to be attracted to that she's going to trust, what is she going to see in you.
[1:38:48] Nothing that i would say to answer that.
[1:38:51] Well she's going to see that you've been in the dating market for 15 years and nobody wants to date you yeah right think of it like an employee right you you're you're a you're a seasoned experienced hiring manager and somebody's been in the workforce for 15 years they've had two jobs for six months where they stole from their employer and that's it, do you want to hire that person no right do you think it's going to be better in 15 years, no right do you do you want to hire that person right now if they have almost no work experience and the two places they did work they were lazy and stole things and then when they're when their boss said i need you to work harder and stop stealing things they just quit, would you want to hire that person right now no okay do you still use pornography yes.
[1:39:51] I have recently and have committed to stopping.
[1:39:54] We don't have to get into details. So a woman with any sense and maturity looks at a guy who's single in his 30s and sees a pornography addict, which you are, in my humble opinion, because you use pornography. This is why I was asking earlier, right, about the girls you lost interest in, because you use pornography instead of having a relationship.
[1:40:19] In other words the pornography is between you and a productive relationship with females which means it's having a hugely negative effect on your life and behavior which you continue which has a hugely negative effect on your life in my amateur understanding of the word is an addiction so we got a a porn addict with no history of any kind of successful relationship with women and if you're honest about your prior relationships she sees that you use women for sex and then dump them when they want more so what does and listen i'm not saying you don't have positive qualities i'm not at all but you do i mean you're very intelligent and uh you have a lot of training and experience in philosophy and and you're a hard worker so i mean there's positive of things right but we're looking at right right if you go to the doctor and you say my elbow hurts he doesn't say well your knee looks fine right we're looking at the parts that are the problem does this sort of make sense okay.
[1:41:26] Now then she also looks at your family ashley looks at your family why does ashley look at your parents.
[1:41:36] It's uh it's a good proxy for what i might think is normal and acceptable and.
[1:41:44] Well to some degree what's more practical though that's again i know you you warned me that both you and your dad are very abstract so yeah i take that warning to heart and what what in a more practical sense would her concerns be about your parents those.
[1:42:00] Are grandparents i might not be able to count on or what around.
[1:42:05] Well they're she's marrying the family see women marry families men date individuals but women marry families because women like a man gets married and usually doesn't have that much to do with his in-laws historically speaking evolutionarily speaking because what's he doing he's going off to hunt he's going off to work he's going off to war he doesn't have to deal with the in-laws however traditionally a woman marries into a man's family and you know the the the the brothers-in-law the sisters-in-law the grandparents they're all over right because they've helped and raised the kids they're like community right so she's going to look at your, parents and say okay i got 30 years with these people or 20 years or however long or whatever however long they live and they're going to be integral to the raising of my children they're going to be integral to the success of my marriage and what's she going to see with regards to your parents and she's going to go and visit your family right she's going to drop by right.
[1:43:03] And what's she going to see hoarding right, and real emotional disconnection right and parents who don't have a good relationship with you and who don't seem to care and she also is going to know that your parents didn't really give two shits about your biggest goal which is to get married and have children or teach you anything about dating and are fundamentally indifferent to you in very foundational ways, what's that going to mean with regards to her children? They're going to be about as useless as tits on a bull. And in fact, they might even interfere, might be negative, right?
[1:43:43] Yeah.
[1:43:45] So when I'm saying you need to see yourself from the outside, are you in demand at the moment? Listen, I can see your picture, right? You're a good looking guy, right? I agree with your assessment, eight plus or a good day, whatever, right? So you're a good looking guy. You're single. You're in your early 30s, which is where a lot of women do want to settle down, right? Are you in demand? You've been on the dating apps. Are you in demand?
[1:44:14] Not particularly okay.
[1:44:16] To help me understand and i want to know what that means.
[1:44:21] I moved to yet another new city 10 months ago almost right away like went to some meetup networking events um you.
[1:44:32] Mean for dating.
[1:44:33] No like business or just not dating specific events and chatted with people and got a couple of women's numbers, asked them out, went on a date or two that way. Have been on a couple of dates from dating.
[1:44:49] Apps as well. When you go on a date, after the date, do the women pursue you?
[1:44:58] No.
[1:44:59] Why not? I mean, are they roughly your age or late 20s, early 30s?
[1:45:09] Yeah.
[1:45:10] Okay, so they want to settle down. Right? You're a good-looking guy. You're relatively successful in your career. Right? You're very intelligent. Studied philosophy for 15 years. I think that's a plus. I hope that's a plus. So you're a good-looking guy with reasonable levels of success. You're fit. You're healthy. Why don't they pursue you? It's a fair question isn't it.
[1:45:39] Yeah have.
[1:45:41] You have you asked yourself this.
[1:45:45] My current best i can come up with so far answer is i'm, I'm not clear on what I am bringing to a relationship or what I want from a relationship.
[1:46:05] No, this is the inside out stuff that drives me crazy in this conversation. I, I, I, me, I, my thoughts. Why are they not pursuing you?
[1:46:21] They don't find me attractive in a non-physical sense.
[1:46:27] Why didn't you buy the house? Well, I didn't want to buy the house, but that doesn't answer anything.
[1:46:31] Yeah.
[1:46:32] Why don't they find you attractive enough to pursue? I mean, let me ask you this. So after you go on these dates, do you get messages from the women saying, had a great time, let's do it again?
[1:46:43] I've gotten at least a couple of those.
[1:46:45] Great. Okay. And how has that gone from there?
[1:46:48] The one that I can remember most clearly and recently, um i i asked her out a couple times and she was busy maybe legitimately the first couple times but then.
[1:47:01] No no no that's not how it works no that's so that's not a woman who wants to date you yeah yeah because i mean you know how it works right yeah if you ask a woman out she's don't propose well no she will she will suggest another time oh i'm busy friday but how about sunday, So she's just telling you she's busy, right?
[1:47:20] Yeah.
[1:47:21] Okay, so she doesn't want to date you. Okay, so why don't women want to date you when you're a good-looking guy, reasonably successful in your 30s, which is a hotspot for women wanting to settle down? Why don't women want to date you? I mean i could tell you why but i'm just wondering if you know yeah.
[1:47:43] I'm i'm trying to to dig uh just to see if i could come up with it but i yeah i don't know.
[1:47:49] Oh because you have no emotional accessibility none that i can see i mean i've been talking to you for an hour 45 other than a little giggle here and there and one report of passing sadness we've had no emotions um whatsoever You kind of speak in this monotone that is kind of hypnotic and shows that you're just, there's a devoid, there's a distance from your own emotions. Does that make sense to you?
[1:48:14] Yep. Yeah.
[1:48:16] And if you're distant from your own emotions, women don't want to date you because you don't have the kind of passion that could lead to pair bonding that can lead to security for women.
[1:48:28] Yeah, that makes sense.
[1:48:29] I mean, I crave my wife. You know, every time we're around, I'm giving her a hug or a kiss, and I crave her. So she's perfectly secure in the relationship, right? But you're going to have to have some feelings for women to want to date you, because they can't date distant robots. They can't date men who don't have passion, because without passion, there's no possibility of reliable commitment.
[1:48:59] Yeah. Yeah.
[1:49:01] So you keep yourself either you don't have emotions which i doubt i'm sure you do or you keep yourself emotionally very distant because you mentioned a couple of times that you push down negative feelings right yeah okay so why why do you i mean if this assessment is roughly correct why do you think you don't express or demonstrate a feeling.
[1:49:27] Like for myself by myself or to other people.
[1:49:33] Come on man don't hedge well what are we talking about here we're talking about relationships right and dating yeah so why on earth would you need to ask me if this involves other people when we the entire topic of this conversation is other people and dating you're you're stalling.
[1:49:48] Okay i i'm afraid.
[1:49:51] Okay go on.
[1:50:01] I'm afraid if I feel and act without being guarded or trying to suss out who's this other person and what can I say or what can I feel and not, that either I'll be rejected fairly or because I have this history of being afraid to be emotional and connected with people, the emotions that will come out and the way I'll act will be the intended effect. They'll be emotional instead of distant, but it'll be like snipey or trying to push them away by not being a fun, caring person, but like a snide, sarcastic kind of person.
[1:50:59] So you're concerned that you might come across as snide and sarcastic.
[1:51:07] Yeah i think that's the.
[1:51:12] Why would you be um why would you be snide and sarcastic.
[1:51:21] To then be able to keep the cycle going i will see i was i was honest with this person and they didn't like my jokes so what's the point in being emotionally available in forthright.
[1:51:35] But what does what does jokes have to do with being emotionally available jokes don't don't mean that you're emotionally available do they.
[1:51:52] Not in and of themselves.
[1:51:54] The most emotionally available people around, which is the case, right?
[1:51:57] Yeah. I guess when I think about what does it mean to feel and express and share emotions with other people, the the two the two scenarios that i see that are here's here's my non-valid excuse for why i shy away from that is one if i say something genuine like i, i believe that, it's important to be a great parent because that's how we actually fix the world.
[1:52:42] But it's a lie hang on hang on okay that's a lie though you don't believe it's important to be a great parent are your parents great parents no now they're still welcome in your life and you still don't confront them and you don't have any requirement that they learn to express any emotions with you because they basically say f you to go into therapy so that's just sentimental that's not that's not what you actually do that's not how you actually live right, i mean again i'm not trying to be harsh but i'm trying to be sort of blunt and and direct that's fair so when you say i think it's important to be a great parent well your parents weren't and that's not a big deal right, Um, if you're just saying stuff rather than saying, is this what I actually believe empirically, then people will, you'll just come across as inauthentic, right? And, uh, a pretentious opposer. I mean, if I was surrounded by liars and I said, I think that honesty is a really important virtue, wouldn't you roll your eyes?
[1:53:50] Yeah.
[1:53:51] I say, well, geez, this guy's just talking to himself. he's just posing to himself because I can see that he's surrounded by liars and yet he tells me repeatedly how important truth telling is, and isn't that kind of exhausting I mean who's going to want to really get really involved in trying to solve that or you know undo that riddle, nobody well especially if this is where you are in your early 30s after 15 years of philosophy. If you are in the place where you can still just say stuff that you don't really believe without noticing the contradiction, people are going to find that a bit wearying, right? I mean, kids lie, right? I'm not calling you some big liar, right? I'm just, this is one example, right? Where there's an inconsistency, which we all have, but, with regards to kids, kids are going to lie, right? And they're going to lie a lot, right? That's kind of how kids do things. That's, you know, not the end of the world or anything. But for a guy in his 30s to not really know when he's not telling the truth, that's kind of rough, right?
[1:55:02] Yeah.
[1:55:06] So to go back to our good friend Ashley, who's very honest and direct, if you say nonsense like, I think great parenting is really important, and then she meets your parents, she's going to be like, what? Why would he tell me that he thinks great parenting is really important when his parents are kind of not good and he's fine with that, I mean you see the challenge right yeah, So, what does it cost you to be passionate and to show emotions? Like, what's the harm in it to be, even if you're mistaken, which emotions and passion sometimes are, but they're still kind of what make life worth living. So, what does it cost you to be sort of passionate?
[1:56:05] I mean, has there ever been a girl or a woman that you really, really wanted to pursue?
[1:56:25] No.
[1:56:27] Okay, so you've probably met hundreds of women over the course of your life, and you've not met one that you're passionate about. And that's what women will get, that you can't connect, you can't be passionate, you can't peer bond. So women in their late 20s, early 30s are looking to settle down and have kids, which means they can't waste time with an emotionally unavailable guy. Now, why do you think you've met hundreds of women and never been passionate to pursue one? Come on man just just tell me i don't know what these pauses are like these pauses are like you consulting 3 000 in a lawyer so that you get yeah yeah i'm trying to exhausting why i'm.
[1:57:11] Trying to fend you off before.
[1:57:13] Now why don't you like any women take sex out of the equation which is what the women say right not take sex out of the equation but you and and like they want more than just sex then you say basically get lost so what's is it the fault with all the women the hundreds of women no okay so what's the problem i.
[1:57:35] Didn't i haven't wanted to be a good boyfriend.
[1:57:43] Or husband well what does that mean if.
[1:57:50] If we, if we got into something that's important and not just about sex and lust i would be uncomfortable with that and i've.
[1:58:03] Chosen yes i know i know that you'd be uncomfortable with that okay i gotta i gotta cut to the chase here right so the reason why you can't show any passion is passion meant nothing to your parents your passions your feelings your preferences meant nothing to your parents. It adjusted nothing. They did not change their behavior. You didn't want them to be hoarders. They kept being hoarders. You wanted them to talk to you more. They didn't talk to you more. You want them to go to therapy. They don't go to therapy. They don't care about your preferences, your passions, your emotions. So how do you survive in a relationship? You're an only child, right? How do you survive in a relationship where your parents don't really care about your feelings and your preferences?
[1:58:51] Stop having them.
[1:58:53] Yeah, you've got to stop having them because it's too painful. Because having feelings and having preferences shows your parents appalling deficiency in connection and love and affection and caring.
[1:59:07] It shows them to be cold. And for children, having your parents revealed as cold and uncaring is terrifying because it means you can't trust them to take care of you and to keep you secure so you hide your feelings because your feelings were like death to you having passion having preferences is like death to you because whenever you would express them and your parents would be indifferent you would feel death anxiety like they're not going to take care of you they're not going to protect you they could just wander off in the middle of the night and leave you behind in the woods if you're inconvenient if right, this is why when i asked you earlier i said you know have you had these conversations with your parents and you said well kind of tangentially or a little bit or whatever and that means that you've tried and they're just cold right yeah right and i say this with deep sympathy please understand this is not a criticism but i'm saying this with massive and deep sympathy, that if your parents don't care about your passions you have to abandon your passions when you're a kid. Not when you're an adult. When you're a kid, you have to abandon your passions. They are too dangerous. This is like you've got to throw your goods overboard in a storm on the sea, right?
[2:00:24] So for you to express passion and attachment and lust and need, desire, well maybe not lust, need and desire for another person, is terrifying because when you were growing up as a child with regards to your parents and maybe others that was a path to absolute disaster.
[2:00:50] It's like leaning over a cliff you don't want to go anywhere near the cliff edge because leaning over the cliff is really dangerous, you can fall forever, parents are there to facilitate the success of the legitimate desires of their children right you have a legitimate desire to get married and have kids your parents don't give a shit they didn't teach you about girls they didn't teach you about dating they didn't teach you about sex they didn't teach you about connection they didn't teach you about marriage they didn't teach you and they barely inquire now your mom a little bit and she's mostly stopped doing that right yeah so they don't care they don't care.
[2:01:36] I mean, if my daughter really wanted to get married and have kids and she was in her early 30s and single and had never had a real relationship, I can't even tell you. I'd be like turning myself inside out. I mean, I would never in a million years let it get that far, right? But they don't care. They're cold. They're cold. And because they're cold and they're still unconfronted and in your life you're still deferring to them and their power and their power is don't you fucking bring up any needs don't you have any preferences that go against what we want and what our preferences are we win, you lose, and we will escalate either neglect or aggression if you show any needs because it's incredibly inconvenient to us and it pisses us off. So you can't have any needs and that means you can't pair bond at the moment, right? You can't, this is why women can't attach to you. This is why you're not in demand despite being a good looking guy in a highly desirable demographic. Because women sense that. This guy can't have needs. If he can't have needs, he's only going to have lust. He's going to use me for sex. I won't be able to pair bond with him and the moment I ask him for more, he's going to run back to mommy and daddy and take refuge in the boxes of the trash house.
[2:03:03] And I say this again with great sympathy, great sympathy.
[2:03:12] So you've got to just start expressing needs.
[2:03:19] You've got to start pushing needs and preferences and desires away. You've got to start pushing that away. I mean, you don't have to, but you won't connect with Ashley or a quality woman because she'll sense that about you. There's a certain amount of selfishness in going on dates and never expressing any desire or preference afterwards. Right now you've kind of become like your parents in a way and that you're provoking needs in others and then denying them right because your parents provoke needs in you just by being your parents right and and now you are provoking needs in women like this physics girl or the other girl six months you provoke this need in them you're around you're having sex and then they say i want more just as you said to your parents i want more and what do you say fuck off yeah get lost you're not going to get anything from me too bad and then you go to another woman and you date her and you have sex with her you provoke this desire in her right so you're doing what your parents do to you you're doing to others that's why it's an emergency like it's a serious emergency because if you keep doing it you'll lose any capacity to pair bond that's why i kind of barked in horrified laughter when you said 10 to 15 years from now it's like no brother it's fucking now now yeah it's now, it's now whenever have you done therapy yeah okay and did your therapist try to help you with emotional experience and expression.
[2:04:45] Some have some haven't.
[2:04:47] Okay and uh have you got that as a project in your life that you need to do and work on.
[2:05:01] Not specifically.
[2:05:05] You're still doing fog and ink like a squid. I'm startling in the water. Not specifically. Generally, in some vague interstellar option, it might be the case. But you know what I mean? You also have to start answering things directly.
[2:05:20] Yeah.
[2:05:21] The hedging stuff is really annoying. Ashley will rather chew through her own brass ear than be with a guy who keeps hedging everything. Because you can't have a kind of a conversation or a communication with people who edge stuff when everything's all just far half of this half the other yeah yeah well no you don't you don't because otherwise you'd have worked on it specifically and directly or you'd say to me you know i i recognize that i'm coming across as kind of emotionless and and this has been something i've been working on for a while and i'm like you hadn't you didn't tell me any of that right no and again not a big criticism i'm just telling you my experience right, and if you want to get married you're going to have to pair bond and to pair bond you're going to have to feel very deeply and you're going to have to express that express those, yes a woman will not want to be with a guy who cannot express, who cannot feel or express his feelings any more than you want to marry chat GPT, and you don't want to have kids and she doesn't want to have kids with someone who's not emotionally available because then the kids are going to go chasing the way that you had to go chasing after, your parents right yeah.
[2:06:48] I don't don't want that for them.
[2:06:49] Right right, i mean do you do you experience loneliness much Okay.
[2:07:09] And I've recognized this, too, with these dates. I've gone on a good amount of first dates in the last few months, and only first dates. And recognized, I'm not feeling compelled to pursue them. And that is definitely something they're picking up on.
[2:07:34] Right, right. so and and this is part of the the humor and and the distance and the flatness i mean listen back to this call and see you're more animated now but you know for the first hour it's like one tone just monotone and that's tough to connect with right yeah, okay yeah.
[2:07:57] I got i got called out in high school for being monotone and i was reading Hamlet or whatever Shakespearean play.
[2:08:05] Right, right. Oh, yeah, so you know that to some degree, right? And I assume that part, I mean, I'm quite animated in my voice, and maybe that's part of what you appreciate or enjoy about the show.
[2:08:16] Yeah. For sure.
[2:08:21] Okay. All right. So, yeah, as far as emotions go, Nathaniel Brandon has some good sentence completion workbooks, as just John Gray. And I would just say, though, when you have a feeling, and I remember this from, I won't sort of get into the details, but many years ago, sort of having to work on this. If you have a feeling, a negative feeling, don't push it away, man. Just take a deep breath, let it in, accept it. I would say, assuming it's safe, and it sounds like it is, have a real conversation with your parents. Don't be afraid of their negative opinions because you're an adult and you have reason, to complain you have good reasons to complain and if they're the reason why you can't express your feelings to others express your feelings to them and if they get mad and they reject you and so on experience that pain you'll survive it you'll survive it you're not five or ten or fifteen anymore.
[2:09:26] You'll survive it. And once you've survived people close to you rejecting your passions, you will no longer have to reject your passions yourself, if that makes sense. All right.
[2:09:39] Thank you.
[2:09:40] You're very welcome. Is there anything else that you wanted to mention at the end here?
[2:09:45] I don't think so.
[2:09:48] Yeah, please keep me posted about how it's going. I really, I really appreciate the conversation. I'm heavily invested now. And listen, the reason I I've got very blunt and passionate as you have an enormous amount to offer. And I just want to make sure that you find some way that you can offer all of that to a woman. All right.
[2:10:04] So do I. And I appreciate that.
[2:10:06] All right, man. Keep me posted. And I'll talk to you again, I'm sure.
[2:10:12] Yeah. Thank you.
[2:10:13] Take care.
[2:10:13] Have a good rest of your day. Bye.
Support the show, using a variety of donation methods
Support the show
