0:00 - The Problem with Dating
36:00 - Reflections on School Experiences
1:00:52 - Friendships and Relationships
1:06:37 - The Challenge of Social Introductions
1:15:30 - Bluntness and Rudeness
1:17:59 - Money and Relationships
1:19:13 - Trust and Financial Concerns
1:21:04 - Savings and Financial Responsibility
1:25:35 - The Role of Trust in Marriage
1:27:21 - Media Influences on Financial Perceptions
1:29:51 - Spending Habits and Status
1:34:04 - Women and Home Decorating
1:39:06 - The Nature of Love and Money
1:43:40 - Listening Skills and Communication
1:48:36 - Value Beyond Money
1:56:18 - Family Dynamics and Financial Stress
2:01:40 - Integrity vs. Financial Gain
2:24:36 - Reflecting on Family Influence
In this episode, Stefan engages in a deep and impactful conversation with a caller who is navigating the challenges of relationships and personal development in his late twenties. The caller expresses his concern about feeling behind when it comes to dating and forming meaningful relationships with women, attributing his previous focus on career advancement to his lack of dating experience. While he admits he has generally been happy and successful in his professional life, he now feels an urgency to address his romantic life, which has fallen by the wayside.
As they delve further, Stefan inquires about the caller's desire for a partner, discovering that he envisions a future with a family and shared responsibilities. However, the caller also reveals a tendency to prioritize economic efficiency and practical considerations over emotional connections, prompting Stefan to probe deeper into his views on love and companionship. The caller acknowledges a historical judgmental attitude toward women who do not fit his idealized version of a responsible partner, which seemed to stem from a lack of understanding and perhaps an underestimation of women's complexity.
The discussion shifts to the caller’s family background and upbringing, where he reflects upon how his parents' relationship dynamics may have shaped his perceptions of romantic relationships. The absence of open discussions about dating and relationships within his family became apparent; he notes that his parents rarely talked about these topics, which might have left him without a solid framework for navigating romance. Stefan encourages the caller to consider how this lack of guidance may have limited his understanding of relationships and the actions necessary to foster healthy romantic connections.
Throughout the conversation, the caller begins to identify patterns in his thinking—particularly how he equates financial success with self-worth and relationship viability. There is a recurring theme of mistrust regarding women’s financial habits, stemming from his observations of his mother’s values and his interpretations of those values in relation to romantic partnerships. Stefan challenges the caller's perspective, emphasizing the importance of loving partners for their character and virtues rather than their bank accounts, asserting that true affection transcends material wealth or financial status.
Stefan also addresses the significance of listening skills in relationships, observing that the caller frequently drifts into self-protective or defensive narratives and misses opportunities to genuinely connect with others. He highlights that productive communication requires both parties to listen actively and respond thoughtfully, providing the caller with actionable insights on how to engage better in his future interactions with women.
Moreover, as they unpack the complexities of the caller's relationships, it becomes clear that the caller's fears about women being financially irresponsible or predatory are rooted in his experiences and perspectives. Stefan recommends a shift from focusing on a woman's bank balance to observing her respect, integrity, and moral compass, reinforcing that these qualities ultimately determine trustworthiness in relationships.
In closing, the episode tackles the intersection of personal values, economic pressures, and relationship dynamics, serving as a profound exploration of how past experiences can influence current behaviors in love and dating. Stefan encourages the caller to redefine his view of self-worth, emphasizing that genuine love and partnership should not be contingent on financial statuses but rooted in mutual respect and shared values. The caller leaves the conversation with a renewed sense of direction, equipped with strategies to reconnect with his emotional side and engage more authentically in his pursuit of love.
[0:00] Just the history of me or what the problem is well.
[0:03] The problem is girls right.
[0:05] Yes yeah so i've the last couple of years or for my whole life i think i just focused on working working. I did not put time in it and now I'm behind on that and I'm good on the career stuff but very much behind on the girl stuff.
[0:38] Right, okay. So you're in your sort of mid-late 20s and so it's, you know, 10 plus plus years that this hasn't happened or worked for you and how much does that bother you i mean i know you're a happy guy in general but but how does that bother you how much does that bother you as a whole it.
[0:57] It didn't really bother me but now it's sort of started to i think i have to start on it or uh and then i realized how much i was behind or uh don't have any experience and um Um, so I thought what your advice was to panic about it. So, uh, it was, uh, so a little bit how I thought that it was a good idea. And I'm also a little bit panicked about it because, uh, otherwise, uh, I have to date girls that have like, had like a lot of boyfriends or are like left or I don't know, something like that.
[1:38] Okay.
[1:39] Yeah.
[1:40] And what is it that you feel you're missing or that you want out of a girlfriend or a wife? Is it like family and kids or what is it that you want?
[1:50] Yeah, family and kids and make my life better and easier. you in uh also yeah that that stuff like the family and kids and uh being able to i said that like uh split up the tasks and oh like.
[2:13] Yeah split up the tasks and it's cheaper to live as cheaply as one that kind of stuff right.
[2:18] Yeah but that's not yeah of course it's also the, love stuff or for the companion or something but not that much sorry.
[2:31] Say what you mean not that much what do you mean.
[2:35] It's not maybe that's sort of the question if I'm suppressing that that I want a companion or something or that I'm maybe I'm really super, businessy about it.
[2:54] Super business. Oh, so there's like the economic efficiency argument, right? And then there's the argument of love and so on, right?
[3:02] Yeah.
[3:03] Okay, got it. Got it. And when your friends were starting to get into talking about girls and dating girls and interested in girls and so on, were you at all part of that process or did you avoid it in your sort of mid-teens?
[3:22] Yeah i was part of it but i also was very much uh pushing it away so i was sort of busy with it but i never took any initiative initiative and i also uh every time you go when it started to go somewhere i thought like this was uh don't take too way too much time and i was very i think very judgmental judgmental about girls about how they live their lives, and now it's changed a little bit so you would judge mental.
[3:56] Girls how they would live their lives what does that mean.
[3:58] Yeah they would uh live yeah they were like a little bit slutty or something and they would never have they wouldn't have money or they, They didn't do anything with their time. That stuff. I didn't like watching Netflix in your free time.
[4:26] Right. They didn't have to read books or study history or have that kind of stuff, right?
[4:32] I guess, yes.
[4:34] So you couldn't find any intelligent women or women you could admire. Is that a fair way to put it?
[4:43] Yes. Yes, but when they are intelligent, they were like a little bit like depressed and I don't like depressed or like a little bit negative outlook on life. So I know a lot of intelligent girls, but they're a little bit more negative. I like the combination of happy and intelligent. That is not, yeah, not seeing much of that.
[5:09] Okay, got it, got it. now but but what's changed is not that the women have become better but or certainly you know the hormones in the teen years are a true force of nature not quite so much when you get older so it's not that the women have changed or that your desire has increased but, sort of negative or anxious thoughts about missing out is that more like what it is.
[5:33] Now more like that i really do need to put work a little bit aside because otherwise i'm just going to live with my parents forever and work all day and only work and sleep and i, Sorry, go ahead. I don't know. It's more things, more small things.
[5:58] What do you mean?
[6:01] I have some internal feeling that I have to start with a family or at least start with a girlfriend. And if I start at the point where I want to start a family, then I have only one chance. otherwise I'm getting too old or then it's like then you have like a girlfriend they have to break up and it takes sort of a feeling that that takes like a lot of years.
[6:31] Okay got it so whose job is it to teach you about dating and girls.
[6:39] Because I mean it's not innate right it's culturally.
[6:41] Different and so on right so whose job is it or was it to teach you about these things.
[6:46] I think my parents and I uh Yesterday, I also talked about it with him that it was like we talk about everything, but that's like a war thing you don't talk about or something. My brother and sister also don't talk about it, or sort of openly, only recently when I brought it up a lot, that it's a weird thing in our family that it's quite such a secretive topic, why, it's like you feel like you shouldn't talk about it.
[7:25] Okay, so your father didn't do anything to prepare you and talk about girls or the challenges, the excitements and so on regarding girls, right? And your mother didn't either, right? And did they, have they ever expressed anything over the last, I mean, most people start, you know, 14 or 15, they start, you know, it could be a little earlier, a little later, but in general, sort of 14 or 15. So, you know, we're talking 12, 12 or 13 years ago for you. so have your parents expressed anything over the last 12 or 13 years about this being absent.
[8:00] No also not so or my dad I think my dad once and my mom like very, surface level like like that I should go out have a beer and look for a girl or something super surface level but I recently talked about it with my mom and my dad and they said that or my mom at least she acknowledged that there because how their relationship started was uh like sort of that my mother sort of cheated on another on my dad with her longtime boyfriend sorry.
[8:40] Say that again your your parents relationship started because your father your.
[8:44] Father had my mother fell in in love with my dad while she had like a long-term or five-year-long relationship when she's from her 20s to her 25th right 25th then she uh fell in love with my dad and then she yeah slowly, yeah broke up with him and and it was like a sort of a painful thing does.
[9:07] She consider that something bad or wrong that she did.
[9:09] Yes or at least that's what she just said i i also don't know why that it's not i'm happy about it so uh so does.
[9:20] She have like does she feel she did something like immoral.
[9:24] Yeah or i didn't talk that long long because just recently so we didn't, we still had we still have to go like a little bit more in depth but it's um uh, Yeah, sort of. She felt like she did something a little bit bad, I think. At least, that's what I...
[9:48] Now, what do you think? Sorry, when did you first find out about this with your parents?
[9:58] It's sort of hanging in the air for a long time. It's not like a bad thing or something that there's no talking about, but we uh as the kids never asked about it because it was like a i don't know automatically don't talk about that but i i knew pretty early on i think but not that it was like um, uh and she was actually living with her boyfriend when she was in love and then there was like the, he didn't cheat on him she just was falling in love with my dad and moved out and then there were you know that so recently i got like the whole or more complete story of it of the timeline.
[10:49] Okay so she just broke up with her boyfriend and got together with your dad she didn't cheat right.
[10:54] No so i also think it's not that it's not really that bad sorry.
[11:00] Why i'm maybe i'm missing something but why is it bad at all.
[11:03] I don't know i yeah no.
[11:07] I'm just curious i mean i i can.
[11:10] Tell my particular thoughts.
[11:12] On it but the more important thing is why you think it might be bad.
[11:14] Um i don't think I think it's bad, but I have like a feeling that something else bad happened because she was like depressed for three years, for two years or something when she had with my dad because of it. Like she, because she broke up.
[11:33] Oh, so she thought it was really bad.
[11:34] Yeah. It was, it was, yeah. So it was bad in that sense that there was like a lot of bad feelings around it. And there was no fight or anything that they are still, they still are friendly with each other, like the old boyfriend or something.
[11:48] Oh, she's still friends with her ex-boyfriend?
[11:50] Not friends. She doesn't meet him or anything. But if she goes to a reunion, he is also there because they came from the same place. And so just like service level talk. So there was no, they didn't go separate ways with a fight.
[12:10] Okay. So why was your mother depressed?
[12:15] Yeah, that's a good question.
[12:16] I think why would your father want to be with a girl who's depressed for years?
[12:21] Yeah, that's also weird. I was thinking about it a lot. Why he would want to go with my mother in the States he was. But I think that was because my dad also started dating, I think, very late, like in his 30s or something. Or dad met my mother when he was, I think, 32.
[12:43] Well, but met your mother and dated is different, right?
[12:47] Yeah oh yeah they met and started dating I think that was very close together.
[12:55] No but so are you saying that your father didn't really date before he met your mother.
[13:01] I think so okay i my father's side is a little bit that's like harder to get the stories out of but he didn't have relationships before my mother okay and is there an age difference, yeah seven years oh.
[13:17] Okay so he's 32 she's 25 she'd been in a five-year relationship so it was almost like her high school sweetheart and then she.
[13:26] Left him.
[13:28] And then she got together with your dad what do you know if there was much overlap.
[13:33] And from what i heard yesterday it's like one year or something that she started to uh she wanted to get into graphical design with computers it's like a very long time ago and my dad already did that so she frequently started to visit him and help him with his work and he taught her how to do it so there was like a period where she still was with her old boyfriend and then but when she visited my dad frequently and then, so i think it was like two years or one year something like that or i heard it it was Six months.
[14:18] Six-month overlap. Okay, so this is when your mother was attracted to your father but hadn't acted on it.
[14:23] Yes.
[14:24] Okay. So tell me what you think about the morals of the situation. From what we know. Again, we don't know everything, but from what you know.
[14:36] I can think of that as bad. Only that my mother stayed way too long with her old boyfriend because he was like, uh, I, or that's also what I heard yesterday. She was a little bit, uh, cheating on parties, like kissing and more, and she stayed way longer with it.
[14:57] And then sorry, the boyfriend was cheating.
[14:59] Yeah. The previous. Yeah. Yeah. So he was, he was, uh, or cheating, like kissing and stuff. And, uh, I think nothing much else, but he was like a big drinker and a smoker. Yeah. oh yeah party boy right yeah a very service level so uh who did sports and um yeah.
[15:21] And was he also older.
[15:25] It's uh i don't know that i think he was like not that much older than my dad hey i don't know older than your mom yeah i think he was sort of like the same age or maybe maybe two years older.
[15:36] Okay.
[15:37] That's what I think. I don't know.
[15:39] All right. I mean, I just, my thought is that if a guy hasn't committed to a woman after five years, it's open season.
[15:47] Okay.
[15:47] Well, I mean, your mother wanted to get married and have kids, right?
[15:52] No, she didn't, but my dad wanted to have kids.
[15:55] Okay, but she wanted something else or something different. Now, do you know that she specifically didn't want to or just she hadn't really planned for it or was she against having kids?
[16:05] She thinks herself that she consciously didn't want to have kids, but she unconsciously did want to have kids because she was on the pill, but she was forgetting it a lot. And that's why I was born. and I think my sister also ended up...
[16:22] Oh, so you also went against your mother's wishes? Is that right? I mean, her conscious wishes. We can get into unconscious stuff as much as we want, but against her conscious wishes.
[16:31] I think my parents are not that good at planning stuff. They're a little bit chaotic, so I don't think they had a problem with it or they had talked about it. She was still on the pill, bill but forgot to take it very recently very regularly okay from what i heard from her okay.
[16:52] So she she was she was happy having children is that right like she doesn't sit there and say.
[16:59] It's the.
[17:00] Worst thing ever or anything like that right.
[17:01] No no it was uh she was happy having children only she was acting like she didn't or at least like was on the bill and this kind of stuff.
[17:15] Now, did she want to get married even if she didn't want to have kids? Did she want to get married?
[17:21] No, they're still not married.
[17:24] Oh, okay, okay, got it.
[17:26] They're never married.
[17:28] Got it, okay. All right. So, yeah, I mean, to me, if there's no commitment in particular, if there's no commitment in particular, after five years, it's open season. Right, right, right.
[17:47] I think I sort of agree with that, or something.
[17:50] Well, I mean, and if the people aren't looking to get married, and they aren't looking to settle down and have kids, then, you know, what does it matter, right?
[18:00] Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's... Yeah, I also don't think there's much wrong with it.
[18:07] Yeah, honestly, I could care less. Nobody's initiating force. Maybe there was some falsehood involved.
[18:13] But if your mother and.
[18:15] Her boyfriend had not made any kind of life commitment then so what.
[18:21] Yeah that's also what I think and she said it she made it clear very early on that she was falling in love with another guy oh she told her boyfriend.
[18:34] That she was falling in love.
[18:35] With her dad yes and because she thought she had to say that and maybe Maybe she thought if I could do more stuff together or something, then it will slowly go away again. But it didn't go away because the boyfriend got a little bit distant after that, which is also understandable.
[18:58] Yeah, sure. Yeah, but I mean, it was a go nowhere relationship though, right?
[19:02] Yeah.
[19:03] I mean, he was drinking, smoking, partying. She was having fun, I assume. But I mean, it was nothing serious. It was nothing committed. It was nothing for the life. It was nothing for the children. And so to me, this is kind of like, it's sort of like, if someone has a contract, you know, like I've contracted to work with this place for the next two years, and I've signed a contract, and I've got my bonus, and I got my stock options, then you can't poach the employee, right? Because they're already signed up, and they're already like, then you're poaching them to break a contract, right? But if you meet someone and they're not really happy with their job and you want to hire them and you say, hey, you should come work for me and I'll give you this and I'll give you that and you're underutilized here and I can make you happier and I'll give you a more meaningful job with better pay and you'll have independence, you can work from home, and then the person leaves that job to come to you, have you stolen the person? It's like, that's just business, right?
[19:56] Yeah, I agree with that. That's true.
[20:00] True so so i mean to sort of be racked with guilt because you you got someone to change their job and work for you instead of some other guy who was under appreciating them i mean what's wrong with that that's just business oh.
[20:16] Do you think there's like more to the story i'm not getting out of them or.
[20:19] Well we don't know why your mother was depressed for two years.
[20:24] Yeah, she said because she broke up with her high school sweetheart kind of guy. So she knew a long time and stuff like that. She's, yeah.
[20:39] Right. And this is why, so basically she transitioned from this boyfriend to your dad, right?
[20:49] Yes.
[20:50] Okay, got it, got it. Right. So maybe she was just depressed because she didn't have time to process the previous relationship before getting into the new one, right? So they say it takes about half the length of the relationship to get over the relationship, right? So if she was together with him for five years, then, you know, two years sounds about right to get over the relationship, right?
[21:13] Yes. Okay.
[21:14] All right. So then the question is, why was your father interested in a girl who had a long-term boyfriend and who ended up depressed when she broke up with the boyfriend?
[21:25] I don't know.
[21:31] You do know, because they're your parents, and if you can't know them, you can't know anyone, right?
[21:37] Okay i have it a little bit in i think in myself too or something that i yeah it's, okay so why.
[21:49] Do you think they got together.
[21:53] Uh because my dad was more yeah okay that's from my mother's side so he wants probably for my dad's side i think my dad because uh he was like working all the time and then he had like a girl that finally really was into him or something something like that so he that was actually going for him i sort of as a guess i don't really know i think that, that he finally had a high status or something because he was making on that time a lot of money. And he probably was insecure before.
[22:41] Let's start with things that are a little more simple than all of these very complicated theories. How pretty was your mother when she was younger?
[22:51] Um... Really, I think seven and a half or something. She was pretty, but she was also very insecure.
[23:01] No, no, we're not talking about her character. Manner of visual characters, right? So how pretty was she and how attractive was your father?
[23:15] I think around seven and a half or something, both. so above average, maybe sevens above sevens.
[23:26] And so I mean you've seen pictures of your mother when she was younger, I'm sure you've seen her in outfits that would reveal her figure and I'm sorry to be talking about your mom in this kind of way but it's kind of where we all come from right? So when you've seen pictures of your mother when she was younger she would be considered attractive although obviously not a supermodel but she would be considered it attractive, right?
[23:48] Yeah, she wouldn't be considered attractive, but she's very long. So she's longer than my dad.
[23:53] Taller?
[23:54] No, my dad. Longer. Like, very long. How do you say that? Taller. Height? Taller, sorry, yeah.
[24:02] Taller. Okay, got it. No, I'm pretty sure that's what you meant. Okay, so she's taller than your dad, and most women want a guy who's taller than them. So your dad made up for it with income, is that right?
[24:15] Yeah that was an interesting job like that they were working they started working together so he hired her and that's also sort of when the relationship started I think so wait he hired her and then dated her yes, okay I do have some minor ethical issues.
[24:34] With that but that's.
[24:35] The dating started before that but they started working together and he hired her Yeah, but that was, I think they started dating and then he hired her.
[24:50] Right. So that's kind of nepotism, right? It means giving preferential economic incentives to someone for non-business reasons, right? Because they're a family member or you're sleeping with them.
[25:07] Yeah. it's kind.
[25:10] Of demoralizing to the other people working for your dad if your mom gets a job because she's sleeping with the boss.
[25:19] Yeah probably, I would think so but it was not like a super it was not like a super big company I think he had like one other he had like a secretary at that time and maybe one other, girl also working for him so.
[25:41] He wasn't very successful right.
[25:45] Oh, sorry. Did I say very successful? Yeah, he was sort of very successful, but it was in marketing, in making ads. So he didn't need a lot of people. After that, he...
[25:59] Oh, he just was the creative director and boss and all of that, right?
[26:04] Yeah. So he made good money, but he didn't need a lot of employees.
[26:09] Got it. Okay.
[26:10] At that time. After that he got a lot of employees.
[26:15] So they got together, he hires her, she's depressed, and how long after they got together did you come along? Are you the oldest?
[26:27] I'm the oldest. I'm the only one still living at home, so I think when she was 32 or 30. Yeah.
[26:40] Sorry, when who was?
[26:42] My mother was 30. 32 or 30. Yeah, so my dad was... Is that correct?
[26:49] So your parents were together for seven years before you came along?
[26:53] I think so. Wow. Or maybe five years. Maybe five years. In between five and seven years.
[27:00] Okay. I mean, that's not... Yeah, I don't want to fuss on the details, so... Okay, so they were together for a long time, and then you came along, and how many siblings do you have?
[27:09] Two. A brother and sister, little brother, little sister.
[27:13] Okay. Got it. And you guys, you don't have to give me the big details, but are you fairly close together in age?
[27:22] My sister is one year younger and my brother is more years younger. I think four years or no, I think he's, yeah, four years or five years. He's a lot later. He came a little bit later.
[27:38] Okay. Got it. And how was your childhood growing up? Did your mother work or did she stay home?
[27:47] She sort of stayed home. So I don't really remember. At least in the very early years, she was home. So it was very peaceful and isolated from stuff. It was like a sort of big garden for Dutch standards and a lot of playing outside. outside and yeah, arts and crafts stuff and not that much going outside the house but yeah.
[28:21] Right.
[28:22] Okay. Very peaceful.
[28:23] And so good and how were you disciplined if you were?
[28:30] Yeah, that didn't go really that bad or something. We didn't do bad stuff so they just talked about everything. thing but i did uh everything except for that part is like a good talked out uh a little bit like i didn't do much bad stuff.
[28:49] No it sounds lovely it really sounds absolutely lovely yeah yeah yeah that's great okay and your father did he work from home or was this when his business was becoming more successful and did he work out outside of the home uh.
[29:01] No he just worked at home Just like now, we just have the factory in the house. So, yeah. It's like, it's very fun work. So, it's, yeah.
[29:16] And you work with your father, right?
[29:18] Yes. My father and my mother is also in the company.
[29:20] Got it. Okay. Yeah, I mean, listen, I don't have any problem with family companies. I think that's great. But, okay. So...
[29:30] I also think it's great, so that's why I'm a little bit, I think it's super great, but it's a little bit too great or something.
[29:40] Right, no, we'll get there, we'll get there, I understand that. Okay, so did you end up going to daycare or kindergarten, or did your mother stay home until you went to, I assume you went to regular government school, is that right? regular.
[29:52] Government school and my mother stayed home for she only started working I think when I was eight or something or seven again.
[30:03] Or maybe.
[30:03] Earlier but then she slowly started working as she was always at home so.
[30:08] Yeah so she put some great effort into raising you guys and it sounds you know very nice and wonderful and great so I'm obviously that's a little out of the norm for some of these shows so So I'm completely thrilled to hear it, and how wonderful. And how was your father?
[30:24] That's why I think it's also a little bit weird why I didn't go to write him, because there are some... That's why I could not figure it out from listening to other call-in shows, because I had different problems.
[30:41] I appreciate the challenge. I do. I really appreciate the challenge. I appreciate the variety. Okay. And how was your father when you were growing up?
[30:51] Um so pretty fun not distant not uh yeah i i did like uh i bought building stuff a little bit with my dad he was like working a lot but it was at home so i could always go to him or yeah, and all the employees were also there so it was all sort of a fun and like yeah, yeah yeah i think um no it wasn't no my dad was just there like uh i think how you want a dad to be, he's still like a little bit maybe yeah only the only things you can say is that he's a little bit more feminine and my mother is a little bit more masculine or something like um my dad is a little bit emotional like high uh very big risks they he takes like a lot of risks um yeah okay and but But also in an emotional way or something. Like impulsive? Yeah, impulsive.
[32:00] Okay.
[32:00] Sometimes when he has a lot of money, he buys stuff on the basis of debt. And then when he has little money, something a little bit like that. He was always working and never looking behind him if money-wise it's going okay.
[32:19] I mean, it's hard to begrudge an entrepreneur some spending, right? I mean, you've got to work for something, right? I mean, if your family is taken care of, why not have some toys? I don't know. It's just my….
[32:28] I'm also not judging him. I think it's a good thing.
[32:34] Yeah, yeah.
[32:35] So I cannot really come up with anything bad.
[32:41] No, I'm thrilled to hear it, and I'm certainly not going to try and create something bad. So I think that's great to hear. And look, I mean, as far as character flaws, we all have them. And, you know, sometimes they can be part of our charm, right? So, you know, it all sounds very nice and very positive. And that's great to hear. Okay.
[33:01] Yes. Yeah.
[33:03] So.
[33:03] Yeah, I don't know anybody with a better youth than I had.
[33:10] Right, right. It's great to hear. Great to hear. Okay. Okay, so you go to school and how's your school experience?
[33:18] Yeah that i think the most bad stuff comes from there so i uh it was like very boring so uh, yeah i don't know yeah also not that bad because i went to like a waldorf school so it was oh wow sort of it's only in the basic the like the i'd say that like preschool like the one where you go from kindergarten for 12 yeah kindergarten you like the one you have to go to uh there they were like some weird kids.
[33:50] No, sorry, not the Waldorf school.
[33:52] But some other place. What did you say? Sorry.
[33:56] Sorry, I got lost in the time frame. So you went to Waldorf school and then you went to government school?
[34:02] No, no, no. My high school was a Waldorf school, but the preschool or the kindergarten was, I don't know how it's in Canada, but you have like from four to twelve, you go to like the base school. Uh-huh. And then you have like the high school from 12 to, I think, sort of 18 or 19. Okay. And then you go study.
[34:30] A university kind of thing. Okay.
[34:32] Yeah. Okay.
[34:33] So are you, sorry, from grade four to, sorry, from the age of four to 12, you were in a government school and then you went to Waldorf?
[34:42] Yeah. And, yeah. Yep.
[34:44] And what, you said there was some negative stuff off in the government schools, which there usually is. And what was that?
[34:51] Yeah, a little bit like a little bit bullying. And I also, I think I got like pretty manipulative there, or at least like lying. I beat my pants a lot when I was younger there. And also on the whole side, it was pretty peaceful also. So I... remember yeah it's not it was not really that bad but there were like normal people so people had like a little bit harder life than me so they were like a little bit rougher, and what sort of bullying did you experience, yeah just getting uh i said like uh isolated like you couldn't be part of groups Like.
[35:44] Yeah, you were ostracized.
[35:46] Yeah.
[35:47] Okay.
[35:48] Yeah, because I was a little bit weird.
[35:51] You were a little bit weird, I saw.
[36:01] Very smart, but also very quiet and also weird interests, like, I don't know, making stuff and stuff like that. doing other stuff like gaming and sports. I was not interested in sports and computer games and also not really internet.
[36:27] Sorry, you weren't into sports and you weren't into computer games, or you were into computer games?
[36:32] I was also not into computer games. I was just into making stuff, like building stuff like air guns from PVC pipes and stuff like that. Oh, so engineer guy. Yeah, yeah.
[36:45] Yeah. How is that weird? That's pretty natural boy stuff, isn't it?
[36:50] Yeah, I would say. But I didn't, there were not anybody in that school I could relate to with that. There were no other people who were making stuff.
[36:59] Ah, okay, okay. Yeah, so they were all like video games and stuff like that. And sports, I guess, too, right? Yeah, sports and And so did you talk to your parents about negative experiences at school and how did they react and what did they do?
[37:18] A little bit, but I was also lying about it a lot, I think, because when I talked about it, I made it a lot bigger. They pulled down my pants, I remember something like that, and I got a guy who was bullying me lightly in big trouble, I think. because of that sorry you exaggerated.
[37:38] The bullying and got the bullies in.
[37:40] Trouble when I came out with it I made it like super big but I made it like it was like super weird big thing but it was just like being ostracized and, yeah stuff like that, and like just saying stuff about me.
[38:05] Right, okay.
[38:06] But it was like a very up and down, so...
[38:09] I don't have any particular issues with that. I mean, whatever steps you have to take to dealing with being bullied, and if the bully gets in more trouble, then maybe that helps with being bullied. I don't have any problem with that. I mean, once you're being bullied, I don't think you have much obligation to tell the truth.
[38:27] Okay.
[38:28] Because you're in a state of nature, right? Like, you can't have high moral standards for people who are bullying you, because they don't and have high moral standards themselves.
[38:37] Yes. That's sort of a nice thing. But at least I was like, I think a long time I felt like really shitty about it, that I did that.
[38:52] Oh, come on.
[38:55] Not really shitty, but I thought like, I cannot talk to anybody from that time because I lied about it.
[39:08] Okay so that's interesting if you could tell me a little bit more about how how you felt bad or in what way or what was the standard by which it's just like you have to tell the truth even if you're being bullied is that the standard.
[39:22] Yeah maybe uh um i don't know maybe because after that i also became like because i had like success with lying i think i did it way more at school or something or making everything like uh bigger or after that i yeah, I don't really know. I didn't have that much problem. I was just like super weird. It was super weird that I got away with it. And I think they all knew I was lying, but they just didn't say it or something. It was just like nobody talked about it after that.
[40:04] Okay. Can you give me more specifics about the lie that you told? Like what actually happened and what did you say happened?
[40:12] What happened was they were just calling me names and people, and I could not play with the people, and they were just not really taking stuff from me. But if I took a ball to school, they would keep it and not give it back and start playing with it. and I made like a story that when you have like the school you have that play yard and you have like unmonitored bushes or like a little bit brush where you can walk in and, where the teachers can't see you and I said like they pulled down my pants and were laughing about it like a couple of people like a couple of the guys because I thought that's like very bad thing to do, so i thought like i put it on them and that was okay so you were you.
[41:11] Were being ostracized or not played with or they were taking your stuff and you turned it into something kind of quasi-sexual is that right.
[41:18] And not really i or at least i that was not that was why i felt bad about it afterwards because then i started to understand it was like a little bit weird sexual stuff i pinned on them but i think they that all the teachers knew i was lying but after that i didn't hear anything about it and the bullying sort of stopped and i didn't hear anything i had two years or three years left on that school and, and over one year i don't really know when it happened but it was like really weird i I would think in a normal situation they would say to me, we know you're lying, or they really didn't know I was lying, or it was like two stories against each other, and they thought it was such a bad story that there should have been a part two of it, and they really punished that guy. I don't really know what happened.
[42:18] And sorry, how old were you?
[42:21] You have nine or eight?
[42:23] Okay, got it. Right, okay, so I mean, but you dealt with the politics, sorry, you dealt with the bullying, and it didn't happen again, right?
[42:36] Yeah, sort of, it was not a big issue anymore.
[42:40] Got it, okay, got it, all right. So.
[42:44] I don't really remember what happened, but there was some not good stuff.
[42:53] Sorry, not good stuff, that's too abstract, I don't know what that means.
[42:56] I don't know, like, they were doing stuff behind my back, like making, yeah. I was like the, yeah, you know, like the guy who, they want to eat worms and stuff, a little bit like that. Or sort of they were setting me up to do stuff and I was a little bit, I was very innocent back then. I think, what's oh yeah no I don't know anymore but that kind of stuff.
[43:44] Okay and if you could go back in time and give your younger self advice what would you tell your younger self to do, instead like if.
[43:58] You feel like.
[43:59] If you felt at the time that there was something bad or wrong what would you say now that you should have done.
[44:07] Um yeah i think probably what i did pretty good maybe make the story, better so i wouldn't have doubted that they all think i have a slight about it, something like that make it like a better less that there's not like a sexual thing on it because i didn't know at the time something like that i would i would do actually i would do the same i would not advise to swap schools because uh the other schools were also not that fun i think, okay so i think that it was a good solution only i the not good part about it is that i don't know if they knew I was lying. So every time I saw those teachers, I didn't know if they thought like they helped me or they thought like they sort of kept it under the rug, and they all just ran eyes to me because otherwise I would tell another such story.
[45:11] Right, okay. Okay. Now, do you remember talking about any of this with your parents at all?
[45:20] Um yeah not that much but that they were i think that's also what you talked about or i can remember what you talked about it that if your parents are not that close that you are like an easy pickable target for bullying so it was like a little bit distant times so i talked about it with, my mother and then she went to the teachers i think i don't really remember what happened after But then, of course, but then on school, I had to talk with the teacher and I told, like, this is a weird story.
[46:01] And but this was your own invention, right? I mean, this was what you did. This is the solution that you came up with for the for the bullying, right? It wasn't something that you ran through with your parents or decided with your parents or anyone else, right?
[46:20] Personal project it was yeah okay.
[46:22] Got it got it all right and so yeah you would say it's fine to tell a story but maybe don't make it so unbelievable or don't make it in this sort of half sexual way is that right.
[46:34] Yes yeah i would yeah but uh yeah so yeah like yeah that of course that doesn't do like damage to myself that i don't know who to trust anymore because i don't know if they know i was lying sorry say that again but um that uh that i don't know if i can trust teachers after that if they think i'm like a liar so they don't trust me at all anymore or yeah something like So after that, I didn't know if teachers knew that it was a lie. So I couldn't really talk about it.
[47:20] It's your word against his, right? So how would they know that, how would they know for sure that it was a lie? I mean, unless there was video of the encounter, how would they know that it was a lie? I mean, if you put yourself in the mind of the teachers and you come and say, oh, did you say it was more than one person who pulled your pants down? Is that right?
[47:47] Yeah, I think I pinned it on three guys.
[47:51] Okay. Okay, so three guys, you say three guys pulled your pants down, and do you mean that they pulled your pants down, but you still had your underwear on, or do you mean that they pulled your pants down and it exposed your genitals?
[48:03] I think it was my butt or something, what I thought. Well, you can't just do one.
[48:08] Right? I mean, unless they just pulled it down from your butt.
[48:13] Yeah, it was just like they were like... um, I should say that yeah I think just my butt or my genitals I don't know it was not really it was not really um, I thought it was both bad at that age I think it was like both bad thing, I didn't think of the sexual thing I had like a sort of an idea that it would be super bad to say it like that but I didn't understand it and I didn't really understand what was going on so yeah it's something like that okay so.
[48:54] How would the teachers know i mean obviously the the three boys said we never did that right.
[48:58] Probably but i don't know what they said well of course they would.
[49:03] Say they wouldn't admit to something they didn't do right for.
[49:06] Sure okay yeah but i don't know how far if they got yeah i don't know if they got away we know we know you don't.
[49:14] Know i get all of that you we understand i'm not talking about that so they would have said we didn't do it and you said they did do it right now did you have a history in the school of verifiable lies.
[49:30] I don't think so.
[49:32] Right. So you weren't known as a liar, right?
[49:36] No, I don't think so.
[49:38] Okay. So if you put yourself in the position of the teachers, what should they have done differently?
[49:49] Um i think they in my if i had i was like a teacher there i think i would make it like a super big deal and try to find out if it actually happened or um if it didn't happen and yeah make like a big deal out of it like not that it i had one talk and then afterwards i didn't hear much about it and then everybody was nice at me.
[50:13] How would they find out what really happened?
[50:18] Talking with a lot of other kids, saying is that like something they would do? Is there something did that happen?
[50:25] How would the other kids know whether that happened?
[50:29] For me I would put a little bit of social pressure on the kids who allegedly did it to ask around a little bit or something like, you don't think they yeah okay maybe they did that and they just didn't find out and they maybe you're right no.
[50:51] I'm trying I'm trying to figure out how when a kid says now they probably knew you'd been bullied right yes I mean either you had told them or your parents had talked to them about it or they had seen you be bullied right, yeah they see they probably see me being.
[51:11] Nice to me yeah yeah they uh of course they're not bullying in front of teachers but they seen me by being like a little bit outside and they're not being nice to me.
[51:23] Well you know just because they're not bullying you in front of teachers doesn't mean that the teachers don't see it and i say this because i worked in a daycare for years and i knew exactly the social status of every child i knew where the child was in the hierarchy i knew who the bullies were i knew who the victims were even though they did not bully in front of me you catch things out of the corner of your eye you overhear things around the corner you see things through the window like you as a i wasn't a teacher of course i was just a daycare assistant but you know everything yeah does that make sense so so they knew you were being bullied right, And so this fits that pattern.
[52:03] Right? Yeah. They just sweep it under the rug and make something like that.
[52:14] I'm not sure what that means, but let's just keep following the logic, right? So your teachers know that you're being bullied. Now, the question is, where do you think you came up with the pants pulling down thing?
[52:28] Think um i don't know where i came up with it but i think i heard some stuff about like another school where something sexual did happen and i thought maybe it would fit nice with my, persona on that school that i'm a sort of an innocent guy and i don't know too much about all that stuff if i make it that story because then i couldn't come up with it myself so so So that's a little bit how I made the story, or in my head, how it automatically went.
[53:01] Okay, so you'd heard it from somewhere, right?
[53:03] Yeah, I heard it from somewhere. I thought, like, this is not a thing I could have come up with myself. Or they don't think I could have come up with it myself. So I think I can get away with it and make it a lot worse for them.
[53:19] Him so it could be the case it could be the case that your bullies had also heard the story and maybe they had done it to some other kid that it could be verified because maybe that oh this is cool and this is neat and this is a fun way to humiliate kids or whatever so it could be that the reason why they believed you is a because they knew you'd been bullied b because you did did not have a reputation as a liar, and C, because maybe the bullies had heard about this and joked about it or done it to some other kid.
[53:54] Yeah, that is possible, but I would think that would, in my mind then, I would think that would be too risky if a lot of people knew about this story. I think I heard some other story and made like a different thing of it. Okay.
[54:15] All right. So let's say that. that, but still, if you're a teacher and a kid who's been bullied says that the bully's pulled down his pants, right? I mean, there's literally a word for that. I don't know what it is in your region, but in England, you get pantsed. Pantsed is when you pull down someone's trousers, right?
[54:46] Yeah.
[54:46] So this is kind of a known bullying thing. So if you're a teacher, do you like the bullies? No. Do the teachers feel sympathy for you? Yes. Now, there's no way to establish the truth of the matter because there's only witnesses, right? And every witness has their own incentive. Now, the bullies have already shown that they're not decent people because they're bullies. And you, who is a victim and who doesn't have a history of lying, is a decent person.
[55:23] Yeah.
[55:24] Okay, so the teachers, why would they even particularly care whether it was, quote, true or not? Because it gives them a good excuse to punish the bullies and hopefully get them to change their behavior, which it did.
[55:41] Yeah, but I never heard from it. I did never hear if there was like a punishment or...
[55:46] No, but the bullying for you stopped, right? so you you gave you gave the teachers a credible reason to punish the bullies, which they wanted to do because they didn't like the bullies, so why teachers why would the teachers really focus on trying to figure out the truth of something when they didn't like the bullies the bullies had already destroyed their credibility by being bullies, that's one of the prices that you pay for being a bad person, is that people don't want to believe you, and you don't have much credibility. So you, no history of lying and a victim of bullying, whereas the bullies, obviously a history of lying and history of bullying, and then you give the teachers a way to punish the bullies, and thus protect the other children.
[56:45] Yeah.
[56:47] So I'm trying to figure out why, would you have the standard that teachers need to find out the truth when they can't? The only way... So it's impossible for them to find out the truth.
[57:02] Yeah.
[57:03] But they have to look at the two situations and say, who has more of a history of lying and who has more of an incentive to lie? Well, you have an incentive to lie because it makes the bullies look worse, but the bullies are already known as bullies and therefore aren't going to be believed. Of course bullies are going to deny bullying. What the teachers look at is they see the bullies consistently lying by hiding their bullying. So, you know, like the bullies will kick a kid under the table where the teacher can't see. Or the bullies will bully where they think the teacher is not looking and so on. So the bullies are constantly lying. And that's why the teachers don't believe them. And they're lying by hiding their bullying, if that makes sense.
[57:55] That makes a lot of sense, actually. But I don't know why that clicked earlier in my life. I already dealt with it, I think, like seven years ago. I thought like, oh, yeah, that's a good thing to do. Or it was like a just thing to do. But before that, I had like a nasty feeling about it. To me that I did something really bad and nobody knows it.
[58:27] Right, okay. So this is not something that you think it was good and right now.
[58:35] Yeah, or at least I think it was neutral. It didn't really matter, at least for now. It was just like, it was not good or bad. It was just a thing you do in that situation, or I would do in that situation.
[58:54] So I think this is probably part of your lack of experience in relationships, that we just spent 20 minutes or 25 minutes on something that I think is important, because I think it has to do with your...
[59:07] Oh yeah, okay.
[59:08] And so, and now, hang on, hang on, and now you're telling me that it's not an issue, and all of the moral arguments that I've just made that you appear to be arguing against are not relevant to you, and you've already resolved it at all.
[59:22] Uh no they are very relevant to me only i don't feel it's like it's a sort of a light, i still i still felt like i did something wrong only now i don't sorry i thought you just said.
[59:41] That seven years ago you resolved and you thought it was a good thing that you did.
[59:44] No i don't i think it was a bad thing but in a bad situation and uh that's what i thought then to resolve it in my head but now i don't think i don't really know, yeah i'm sorry.
[1:00:01] I appreciate that how have your friendships developed over the years.
[1:00:06] Um on school it was friendships on school so um similar interests like uh building hoods in high school then i don't have any friends from uh like the base school like kindergarten, so in high school like yeah just sitting next to each other in class and then like making jokes and stuff and doing stuff after school like building stuff or, like that sorry into.
[1:00:45] Adulthood how's that been.
[1:00:53] Still yeah i.
[1:00:55] Mean you work with your family right you have siblings is that mostly your social circle or do you socialize much with friends outside the family.
[1:01:04] I socialize more with friends outside the family uh yeah i do i have like a couple friends before this also came by they live pretty far away but they or for Dutch standards they live pretty far away but we I do like every weekend I do some stuff with my friends or I don't and also a couple friends work as employees for me so yeah so I see a lot of friends okay.
[1:01:40] And are your friends in relationships.
[1:01:43] Yeah a lot of them are sorry yeah yeah a lot of them are or uh yeah yeah most of my friends always had had uh were always in relationships i didn't at last night not like in that sense like loser i have like one good friend who uh is in the same situation as me but he is like committed to not going into relationships but uh all other friends all had like relationships and uh, were busy with girls okay.
[1:02:17] And what do your friends think of you not having you haven't dated is that right.
[1:02:22] Uh dated as in just going out with the girls well.
[1:02:27] I mean sorry i mean i know you've gone out once or twice with girls so maybe three or four times but you've never been in a romantic relationship.
[1:02:35] Oh, yeah. Okay.
[1:02:36] And what do your friends think of that?
[1:02:41] Um, I think that's like, uh, sort of weird, but they also understand it because I'm putting all my time in work. So it's not, it's very easily defendable to my friends, but they also started recently, uh, talking way more about it.
[1:03:07] But these are friends, some of them you've had for many years, right?
[1:03:10] Right yeah so they know you don't.
[1:03:14] Date right yeah and do they do you say well i'm just working hard i'm in my you know mid late 20s and i could have been dating over the last 12 years i haven't really been dating because i'm working hard.
[1:03:28] Yeah and i also don't know things that girls would like to do i'd like way different things to do i think girls if i want to ask him out or something i don't want to go to uh like a bar or i say like a restaurant i, yeah just want to do like uh easygoing stuff well like what like uh walking in the forest and that kind of stuff. Or working on something, like what I do with my friends, like making something.
[1:04:14] Sorry, you want to go on a date and make something? Like what?
[1:04:19] I don't know.
[1:04:20] Sweet, sweet love! No, what do you mean? What do you mean make something?
[1:04:25] About anything, like spinning clay or painting or there are stuff that can do or making like robots or web shops, I don't know, anything, or something.
[1:04:40] Okay. so have your friends um tried to help you or encourage you or have they introduced you to any, girls because if they're dating then you know their their girlfriends or their wives have sisters and friends and cousins and like has has they said have they said uh you really should not work so much you should date a little and you know let's at least go out with this you don't have it doesn't have to be a setup like you know like you got a date but you know my my girlfriend friend has a friend who is single and let's all go out together.
[1:05:18] Not like that but encourage me to send text or, yeah like that like saying I should have this girl out or say something to that girl or stuff like.
[1:05:34] That so let's say you have half a dozen friends right.
[1:05:39] Yeah they are good friends yeah.
[1:05:42] So you have half a dozen friends, and each of your friends probably knows at least three single women.
[1:05:52] Yeah.
[1:05:53] I mean, whether it's other friends or family or whatever, right? So you've got six friends.
[1:05:59] Yeah.
[1:06:00] They know three girls each, and so that's 18 girls that over the last 12 years or 10 years or five years, you could have been introduced to, right? I mean you just throw a dinner party and it doesn't have to be awkward you invite you and some single friends right yeah sorry go ahead.
[1:06:25] Yeah but then it's not explicit like you said I think that happens sometimes, I probably didn't click with those girls.
[1:06:37] Yeah I don't know what click means but we'll get back to that so have you have your friends never said um i'm going to invite this girl to the dinner party or, to the robot battle or whatever you're doing i'm going to invite this girl to some social event you should chat with her i think she's nice.
[1:06:59] Um not that i can remember it feels like it happened but i cannot remember an instance.
[1:07:04] So So... Also, the women, right, so you've got six friends, let's say four of them have girlfriends or wives, is that right?
[1:07:18] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[1:07:20] Okay, so we've got 18 girls that your male friends know. Now, women know even more women, and women are constantly keen to introduce their friends to a quality guy, right?
[1:07:34] Yeah.
[1:07:34] Because women love to be matchmakers. and it's a great thing it's a it's a wonderful thing that women do.
[1:07:40] Oh yeah yeah okay it happened lately it happened like uh twice but not with my friends but with my neighbor she uh knew like a, very nice uh cash register girl down the street but uh so it it and she said that i should go there and ask her out because she was like a pretty high quality but what i heard the introduction, was not high quality so uh sorry the introduction was not.
[1:08:12] High quality what you mean.
[1:08:13] Yeah the introduction of my neighbor was uh there's a girl there she's very nice and sweet uh she just broke up with her boyfriend because he cheated on her and so you should go talk to her okay that was Sorry.
[1:08:29] You're not letting me do my part of the conversation. I'm talking about your friends, right? So your neighbor, some cashier girl is not part of what I'm talking about. So let's say that your male friends know three girls, six male friends, that's 18 girls they haven't introduced you to. Let's say that four of the girls of your six friends also, and they maybe know five, right? So that's another 20. So that's 38 girls that your friends and their girlfriends know that have not been introduced to you. So why aren't your friends and your friends' girlfriends in particular, why are they not introducing girls to you? Why are they not introducing you to girls?
[1:09:13] I think one guy says that I don't talk different to girls. So I should first don't talk like the weird stuff. like I don't know like be very I'm very open and direct about everything and they say I should not do that to girls so he said it like that and what.
[1:09:40] What example would he have do you think if I were to ask him what example does he have of you being open and direct to girls what would what would he say.
[1:09:49] Um talking about, directly comparing bank accounts like looking how much money you have on your account and like that stuff like jokey, stuff seeing how far you are but then like very direct with how much money you actually have on your bank account something like that you would.
[1:10:20] Meet a girl and you would show her on your phone what your bank account.
[1:10:23] Balance is I don't show it I would no no I would that's like one example oh you mean just but talking about so I would show and I'm not showing first I ask that's just in the conversation you I ask how much money just on that bank or her bank account or how big her study uh, debt is the total, total money okay so you would go.
[1:10:49] You'd meet a girl and you'd ask her her bank balance yeah And why would you do that?
[1:11:00] I have an idea. A lot of people don't have a good feeling of how everybody else's money works. And I also didn't have that until I started to do it. Now I don't do it anymore. I just wanted to know how other people's finances work. So I would just ask everybody how much money.
[1:11:19] No, this is a tautology, right? So when I say, why do you ask women their bank account? You say, well, I'm curious about their finances. But that doesn't answer the question. and you're just describing what you do. Well, why are you going north? Well, I want to go north. Yes, but why do you want to go north? So why do you want to know about women's bank account?
[1:11:39] Because I don't get women finances. Then I didn't get it. Now I sort of get it. It's different for how they get money and spend it and what their balance is. I was just interested in, because they do like a lot of different stuff with their money.
[1:12:03] Okay, but why? You're just saying I want to know, but why do you want to know? On the first date or the first meeting or whatever. And I'm not critical. I still want to know. You have to have a theory that you want this information for, because you could ask the woman for just about anything. But you ask about the bank account, which must mean that you're suspicious of something, right? I mean, let's just be honest, right? You think she's a spendthrift, you think she's heavily in debt, and you don't want to pay her bills. Is it something like that?
[1:12:32] No, it's not. I don't think it's something like that. But after I heard most of the women's stories, it is something like that. My interest is not, there's not much interest left at that moment after it. Maybe that's really bad interest, or I talk about studies.
[1:12:52] Okay, so I still don't know what you mean. So you would ask women about their bank account, right? Now, I mean, I don't know your culture intimately, but certainly where I came from, that would be rude.
[1:13:10] Probably. I don't know if it's rude where I come from.
[1:13:14] Well, your friends consider it rude, because I asked for an example of how you were too blunt and direct with women that your friends criticized, and this was the example you gave me. So you have some idea that it's rude, right?
[1:13:26] Yeah probably but not in my direct circles i.
[1:13:30] Know your friend said i asked why haven't the 38 women your friends know been introduced to you and you said well one of my friends said that you're too blunt with women and i said well give me an example and you said asking about bank balances, so i'm just going with what you said but i mean it's kind of annoying that you'd say well no no no, my friends don't think it's rude, when you gave me this as an example of what your friends think is rude.
[1:13:58] They accept it from me, but they don't think I should do it. Yeah, they think it's rude then.
[1:14:04] Okay, so why are we bouncing all over the place here? I don't understand. This is like, we're just going in circles, right? I ask you for an example of what your friends think is rude, and then you give me that example, and I say, well, that's rude. And then you say, well, my friends don't think so.
[1:14:21] Because they don't think so if i ask it to them i think i don't know maybe they do.
[1:14:29] Your friend says you're too blunt with women yeah okay so i asked for the example you give me the example and then you say well my friends don't think that too blunt with women.
[1:14:40] Yeah but they also i'm yeah okay two women with two guys you can say you can be very blunt.
[1:14:49] What are you talking about I've never met a man and asked him his bank balance oh okay, I've never heard of such a thing.
[1:15:02] Okay is it interesting.
[1:15:03] And I would consider it extremely strange if I meet a guy and he's like hey my name is X how much money do you have in your bank account yeah, why do you want to know I.
[1:15:19] Go to the toilet very quickly hello.
[1:15:24] Yo yeah.
[1:15:25] I think I think I'm very blunt.
[1:15:30] Well my question is why do you want to know people's bank accounts when you further because.
[1:15:54] And you know sort of like a important detail about them but how they uh how to talk with people how they uh not how they talk with people how they behave themselves financially or.
[1:16:16] So you, you, is it that you find out whether they save or spend money?
[1:16:23] Yeah. And when they do it, what, what comes in, what goes out. Also, I think it's also to compare myself to, to, to think of a, am I, because you don't really hear that much about it or what is normal or what is normal spending behavior or what is not normal. most depending behavior okay.
[1:16:47] So why do you want to know how much a woman saves and spends.
[1:16:53] But i also ask it to guys it was it was like a very very it was a specific thing uh because i sort of find it okay but so you want to talk about dating.
[1:17:08] Or men and women.
[1:17:11] About what oh no sorry okay i have women because um, um um then you and you can sort of know from that if they're uh like uh if they like to spend a lot if they have like a little bit money if they directly spend it on uh wine at the at the restaurant or if they uh save it because they want to buy a house later or uh or if they have like insane amounts of debt because they went to school. I don't know. It feels like it's very personality bound, but are you going with money? Are you dealing with money?
[1:18:00] Okay. Now, why do you think you can't judge a woman's character by how she interacts with you and you need to see her bank account instead?
[1:18:16] I don't trust them or something. I don't need to see their bank account. Yeah, then you can see how she's doing financially, for sure.
[1:18:33] Okay, so you want to get married and have kids, right?
[1:18:37] Yeah.
[1:18:38] So a woman's bank account is not, I mean, the debt may be, right? But the woman's bank account is not hugely relevant. Her earning potential is not particularly relevant if she's going to stay home and raise your children, right?
[1:18:51] Not earning, but spending more. Because if you have like 70,000 debt or you're like...
[1:18:58] Okay, we have to cast aside the debt. Okay, forget the debt. Because we're just talking about bank balances, right?
[1:19:04] Yeah.
[1:19:04] Okay. So it doesn't matter how much money she makes hugely because she's going to stay home and raise your kids, right?
[1:19:13] Yeah.
[1:19:13] Okay. So are you trying to figure out whether she's going to spend all your money if you get married?
[1:19:24] I'm starting to think that that's why I asked, but yeah, a little bit, yeah. If it's just going to nothing, to doing like another study or, I don't know, stuff like that okay.
[1:19:39] So you're concerned so i assume you make good money right.
[1:19:44] Sort of yeah i'm starting now to make like good money okay.
[1:19:47] So and you have saved your money.
[1:19:52] Um yeah or i'm i'm uh i did save last year i saved a lot and uh before that i always had like a lot of money but um because of the company uh was going like very uh very bad at the moment i put in like all my savings also to keep paying the salaries and stuff so that's why my savings dried up i had like a little bit of crypto but that's what i still have or i re bought it uh i think four years ago or two three years ago but I had sold like everything to, to be paid okay yeah got.
[1:20:36] It okay so you don't have much in the way of savings I'm not trying to be.
[1:20:42] Critical I'm just curious yeah yeah I know I have I've, I think I have like now in like savings, I have 50,000.
[1:20:54] You don't have to give me the exact amount, but it's not like in the millions of euros, right?
[1:21:00] No, no, no. It's like they're starting now.
[1:21:02] Okay, so you're starting to save.
[1:21:05] Yeah.
[1:21:06] So if a woman were to look at your bank account and you've been working for half a decade or more, would she think that you are good with money?
[1:21:20] And no, but that's the, I think, fun to talk about, because I had till recently, we had like a lot of debt, we still have like a little, but now it's gone pretty well.
[1:21:34] Sorry, we as a business?
[1:21:36] Yeah, and me, no, I didn't have any debt, but I, I don't know, yeah. It's interesting, sort of, I think. was like a big risk or something to put all my savings also into it and, i don't know i i'm always curious if other people are also doing that or is it or is it like super stupid or i don't know stuff like that so.
[1:22:09] How do you think a woman perceives you asking her her bank balance when you first meet her. How do you think the woman experiences that?
[1:22:22] I don't know.
[1:22:23] Yes, you do. Because you've done it to the point where your friend has commented on it, right? So how do you think women experience this?
[1:22:34] No, no, no. That was, you asked, what would he say if I were to think of something? And I think something like that.
[1:22:42] Okay, I'm just going with the example you gave me. Let's not nitpick. I'm going with the example. I don't have any other information about you other than what you've told me. So how do you think women experience this kind of bluntness? Hey, nice to meet you. what's your bank balance i.
[1:22:59] Think very judgmental and but that was still really i don't do that anymore i'm not really.
[1:23:07] Okay oh you keep bringing up these problems and then you say it's not a problem so i i don't want to waste your time if you keep bringing up problems and then you say but it's not a problem okay.
[1:23:18] I do still have that i do still do that.
[1:23:20] Maybe it's not this bluntness Maybe it's something else, but we're just going round and round here, right?
[1:23:26] Yeah. But I think bluntness is a very big problem. But I'm not sure because I feel like it's a personality thing of me. I'm very blunt, but maybe I... But yeah, I still do that, and I think that's a problem. How do they react?
[1:23:52] No, not how do they react. How do you think they experience it internally?
[1:23:58] Very judgmental, or that I sort of don't trust them, or that they're hiding something from me or something. Yeah.
[1:24:12] Well, I can't know for sure, but I would imagine that women would generally say, okay, so this guy works in his father's business. He's an entrepreneur. He wants to know my bank balance because he's afraid that I'm a gold digger. Or he's afraid that I'm going to try and chisel money out of him. Or we're going to get together and I'm going to ask him to pay my debt as my husband. You're concerned that they would be financially predatory in some way. yeah and i think that's an accurate observation isn't it like they're not wrong in that you are afraid that the woman is going to be financially predatory in some fashion you're going to end up having to pay off her student debts or or she's going to spend you uh so she's going to spend so much of your money as your wife that you're going to have to work two jobs or that there's some predatory aspect to female romantic desires.
[1:25:08] Yeah and I ask about a lot of that kind of stuff so not money related but I think in it's because I'm, super nice if you if you get close to me so I have to filter out like a lot of I have to be very blunt in the beginning with people very direct, and I think that's sort of but i do a little bit.
[1:25:36] So your concern is that you're too nice and that's why you have to tell women immediately how suspicious you are yeah.
[1:25:44] Because if they get through the barrier then i don't know if i have like a lot of defenses.
[1:25:50] Okay let me repeat what i just said here because i don't think you heard it so you have to tell women or you have to because you're so nice you you immediately have to tell women how suspicious you are of them robbing you blind.
[1:26:08] Yes.
[1:26:08] Okay, do you think it's nice that when you first meet someone, you tell them that you're afraid that they're going to rob you blind?
[1:26:16] No.
[1:26:17] So it's not nice, right?
[1:26:19] It's not nice.
[1:26:21] So the idea that you're doing all of this because you're so nice is not true. If I meet someone and I immediately put my wallet in a buttoned pocket because I say, listen, you are probably going to try and pickpocket my wallet so I'm going to need to protect myself from you, is that a nice way to come across in the world?
[1:26:44] No.
[1:26:46] So where does the fear of female spending come from?
[1:26:54] I don't think it comes from my mother, because she is like from my parents the most responsible. Maybe not.
[1:27:10] Does it come from internet content? Because there's a, you know, there's a big internet movement of, you know, predatory women. Women just want your money.
[1:27:21] And some women, you know, like you see this Cardi B stuff and all they play out, just give me the money kind of stuff. Is there maybe some movie or some movement or some videos and so on that you've absorbed a lot of which talks about female financial predation?
[1:27:37] No, I don't. I think in real life. so i know i like most women i know not all but uh very much women i i think are smart in the first if you look at them and you talk to them are like uh if they get like a little bit of money they spend it all on clothes and wine so yeah.
[1:28:04] And this is true of your friends girlfriends as well.
[1:28:11] Not of that particular friend he i think he has like a.
[1:28:15] No no your friends as a whole not a particular friend do your friends girlfriends generally spend their money on dresses and wine oh i mean i don't mean that specifically but on stuff that's not maybe very responsible, or is this something your friends on average a.
[1:28:38] Little bit on average a little bit.
[1:28:40] I'm sorry.
[1:28:42] On average a little bit.
[1:28:44] Okay a little bit but you spend money on robots yeah right I mean look we all have a little bit of stuff we spend money on frivolously so to speak right I mean that's natural, yeah otherwise you're just like this financial machine like a spreadsheet with no pleasures you're like a robot yourself right you have to spend some money on some things that give you happiness and pleasure right otherwise what are you working for i mean before you have kids in particular right yeah.
[1:29:16] I don't really do i also don't really do that i don't really spend a lot of money on stuff that gives me pleasure because.
[1:29:23] I get that i get that but you said you said hang Hang on, but you said your friends' girlfriends spent a little bit of money on wine and dresses, and now you're saying, well, I don't spend a lot of money, but that's a different category.
[1:29:38] Uh yeah i spent and spent like very little money on uh stuff that makes me happy or something or no i do because i do i uh spend it on the business okay.
[1:29:52] So is it fair to say that you don't spend money at the gym you don't spend a lot of money on clothing you don't spend a lot of money on skin care like would you consider these things frivolous.
[1:30:03] Yes uh not really because gym is good and good but I don't spend any money on that.
[1:30:12] On what?
[1:30:14] On skincare how do you say that? The fitness.
[1:30:18] Yeah so exercise and skincare and what about clothing? Do you spend much money on clothing?
[1:30:24] No actually I think nothing. I do have nice clothes but I, get clothes yeah I buy if I buy it it's not that expensive recently I started to buy more expensive clothes but I always like, like cheap clothes and I look I do like pull-ups from like a wooden thing so I don't spend money on fitness, maybe a little bit of time and I I do everything very cheap outside of for the business.
[1:31:05] Right, okay. So, do you know what a woman's fear is, or one of the great fears of women is, if she marries a guy and he makes the money, right, because that's just typical, right? She marries the guy, he makes the money. Do you know what a woman's fear is, a pretty significant fear is, if she marries a guy and he controls the finances?
[1:31:33] That he cannot provide enough or that it's not stable?
[1:31:37] Sure, but I think it's fair to say that you are able to do that, right? Like you are able to provide.
[1:31:45] Yeah, okay, yeah. I'm able to do that. That I spend like on a very expensive car or something.
[1:31:50] Well, yeah, that's true. But if you make enough money, whatever, right? So a woman's big fear is that she is responsible for running the household and her husband is really cheap. okay do you understand.
[1:32:09] Um starting to a little bit I think.
[1:32:11] Okay so imagine if some company bought your father's company and then put you on and said you have to cut costs 75% how would you feel, um
[1:32:33] Probably the answer you want to hear is bad, but I don't really know how I would feel. I would be interested in how...
[1:32:40] No, no, no. You have to figure it out. You have to cut all of your overhead, your costs, your salary, your rent, your taxes, all of that stuff. You have to cut everything 75%.
[1:32:51] That wouldn't be nice because we already try to keep costs very low now to get out of debt. So that would not be good.
[1:33:00] Right. Right, so that's a woman's experience of a cheap husband who controls the finances. That she's spending all of her time fighting with him to get things she needs for the household. And maybe some of those things are frivolous. Right, so women love to make the house into a home. Right, you need a woman to make the house into a home. You know that old meme that bachelors can live on a futon with a big screen TV and an Xbox. box, right? I mean, they don't care about any of that. They don't care to make things pretty, they don't care to make things nice.
[1:33:39] And so women, the women love to beautify their environment. And the reason for that is that women spend a lot more time at home than they do at work when they're raising children, right? So women spend all of their time at home, and they want to see beautiful things around, right? So women will want to beautify the house, and that costs money.
[1:34:04] Now, one of the reasons why women want to beautify the house is that it confers high status on the man. It's not a crazy thing to do at all. Because in the business world, I mean, I don't know, I mean, you've been in the entrepreneurial world for most of your adult life, I guess. But certainly in my experience, if you want to do business deals with someone, you want to go to their house. Do you know why?
[1:34:33] To see if they are making money.
[1:34:38] Yeah to see if if they have a quality wife to see if they have uh not crazy expensive like you know gold sinks and toilets like trump style or something but they have nice stuff that they neither they're in the middle of the bell curve when it comes to spending because if you're an overspender that indicates a personality disturbance if you're an underspender that that indicates a fear of the future. Because spending money is recognizing that you're mortal and you can't take it with you. It's having a balance in life as a whole. If you don't spend any money, that's not healthy. If you spend too much money, that's not healthy. It's like food. If you eat too little, you're malnourished. If you eat too much, you're obese. And so, also, if you get involved in someone in business, I personally want to see their house because I want to know if they trust their wife.
[1:35:41] Now, your first question upon meeting a woman is, I need to figure out if I can even have the possibility of trusting you. And what that means is that you don't trust yourself to pick a quality woman. That you need some objective numerical marker as to whether a woman might even remotely be in the category of trustworthy. And that means that you... Let me finish. Let me finish. And that means that you don't trust yourself. self. So, when I was in the business world and I was evaluating who to do business with, I would go to their house. Now, if their house was filled with nice stuff, then I would recognize that this is a person who trusts his wife. If the wife says, we need X or Y or Z, he's like, I trust you. I love you. I want you to be happy. Here you go. Take the money, spend it, enjoy. That's a trust thing, right? If the wife is not trusted by the husband, then I can't trust him. Because if he doesn't even trust his own wife, how is he going to trust me as a business partner? Does this make any sense?
[1:36:47] It makes a lot of sense.
[1:36:48] So a woman spending money on decorating the house is making her husband money. It's a status play that shows my husband has chosen a quality woman, he trusts me, I want to make the place beautiful, he trusts me to do it, and because he trusts me he knows how to evaluate and trust people so he's going to be a good person to go into business with.
[1:37:12] Yeah yeah but i think i think not on the money side alone where that's like in overall the problem i don't trust myself to pick a quality woman.
[1:37:24] Well sure that's what i've been getting at yeah you don't trust yourself yeah that's why i said why do you need to see the bank account why can't you judge the quality of her character, Yeah.
[1:37:36] I don't know, because I don't know what's...
[1:37:42] Well, you're trying to find external markers for internal morals. And, I mean, there are there, but they're not about bank accounts. So, for instance, you say that your friend's girlfriend spends frivolously on clothing, but they don't, unless it's in the extreme, because a woman knows that the man is going to be judged by how she looks. And let's just be frank about this. A guy with a hot girlfriend who's dressed nicely is high status.
[1:38:21] A guy with a girlfriend, even if she's physically attractive, who dresses badly, is low status. So a woman who dresses nicely, spends money on clothing, is raising the status of her husband or boyfriend. In the same way that a man with a fat girlfriend is low status. I mean, a man with an overly muscular girlfriend, I don't know, seems in a whole different category. it's not particularly high status, but a man with a fit, attractive, slender girlfriend or wife is high status. Because a woman who gets fat in a marriage does so at the expense of her husband's desire and affection, which means she doesn't really care about him.
[1:39:06] And if you're willing to marry someone who doesn't really care about you, how can you have a successful business partnership? So you think that it's all this, Well, you know, maybe the wine, I don't know. I'm not a big fan of alcohol. But you say, well, they spend frivolously on clothing. And I would argue, no, they don't. Any more than a woman spends frivolously in picking up nice knickknacks for the house.
[1:39:32] Yeah, but I also don't care about that thing. What thing? Vacations, but vacations is also status.
[1:39:43] This so i'm sorry i'm not understanding what you're saying and.
[1:39:47] I don't really mind them spending money on clothes.
[1:39:52] Okay so we're back to this thing where you bring i asked you for an example hang on we're back on these things this is a real pattern for you and i gotta tell you it's really frustrating for other people yeah right it's it's like to take an extreme example it's It's like, because you're calling me because you're panicking a little, right? And then I'm asking you, what's the problem? You say, well, here's a problem. And then I go into the problem. You say, it's not a problem.
[1:40:19] Okay.
[1:40:20] It's kind of like you call emergency services. I need an ambulance. And then the ambulance comes over and you say, no, I'm fine. And then the ambulance goes away and you call and you say, I need an ambulance. And then the ambulance comes back and you say, no, I'm fine. It's an odd game that you play. I agree. Are you calling me asking for help? I'm asking you what the issues are. You identify the issues, we talk about them, and then you say that they're not issues.
[1:40:53] Yeah, okay, they are issues. The issue is that two, for me, I think it's a little bit of a battle in my head between the two. On the one side, I want it, and on the other side, I don't want it.
[1:41:07] It being what?
[1:41:11] Um like a girl who spends a lot of money on clothes and of course i want a girl who spends a lot of money on uh making the house look nice on the other hand for some reason i don't want it i don't really know it's it's like that that's either all the issues we're talking about are like the ones i cannot figure out what i actually.
[1:41:35] Want because you're if this is solipsistic this is just all about you what do i i don't want this and i want that no maybe i don't want a woman who spends too much on clothes but i'm okay with a woman spending oh my gosh man you're missing the point a relationship is when you love someone and if your wife wants to buy something it's good because it makes her happy and you trust her not about what you want you want her to be happy, So if she wants to buy something, right, you trust her, and it makes her happy, so go for it. But you're all about, well, I don't know how I feel about this. It's all I, me, me, I, right? There's an isolation in this mindset. My wife buys things that are incomprehensible to me, but I like them. You know, there's no man alive who looks in the cutlery drawer and says, I really need all of this to match. Am I right?
[1:42:44] Yeah, you're right.
[1:42:46] Okay. Women like stuff to match. How many men look at an empty room and say, we need a big table here and a lot of chairs and candlesticks that we rarely use?
[1:43:01] Yeah. I'm trying to get what...
[1:43:06] Men don't care about dining rooms because we're out there They're building things. Men don't care about all these decorative pillows, and they don't care whether things match, or they don't care about whether the end tables have the same wood consistency. We don't care about that stuff. But women do, and we love the women, and it makes the women happy, and it actually is nicer when it's all done. Like, if you could snap your fingers and have your place look beautiful, you would, because it's nicer. But we don't put the effort in, because that's what women do.
[1:43:40] Yeah.
[1:43:41] So if you love a woman and she wants to buy something, even if it's incomprehensible to you, you say, go for it, because you trust her. In the same way that you might need to buy some part for some robot you're building, does your wife understand it?
[1:44:00] No, but... No, hang on, hang on, let me finish my point.
[1:44:05] So you want to buy something your wife doesn't understand why you want it, right? yeah okay is it okay is it hang on again.
[1:44:17] I was i was thinking too hard.
[1:44:18] Is it if you want to buy something your wife doesn't understand right yeah is that okay can you buy it yeah.
[1:44:30] Of course and in reverse also i would also not have a problem with that oh.
[1:44:37] My gosh so we're back to you saying that there's a problem that you're suspicious of hang on you say that you have a problem that you're suspicious of women spending too much money and now you're telling me this it's not a problem at all, this is great honestly like you're a force of nature brother, the number of times you're setting me up you're setting me up to solve a problem and then you tell me it's not a problem I don't have a problem with women spending money that's why I ask them about their bank account, Do you see what you're doing here? Over and over. Steph, I have a problem. Oh, well, let's look at it this way. Well, no, it's not a problem. I don't have a problem with women spending money.
[1:45:25] Did I actually say that? Sorry, I'm sorry.
[1:45:28] You said, I said, if you are, hang on, I said, if you're spending something your wife doesn't understand, is that okay? And you said, yes, and it's fine the other way too.
[1:45:41] Yeah, and that's like in reverse of, because I said, like a time ago, I said that it's not okay. I'm a little bit confused.
[1:45:53] Well, so you're trying to find out if you can trust a woman, right? And in your trust of a woman, the first thing you want to do is look at her financial habits when she's young and single, right? yes okay and from that you're hoping that you can extrapolate as to whether you can trust her to handle the family's finances when she's raising your children.
[1:46:25] Yeah, that I can trust her with.
[1:46:32] Your money with the money you make when she's raising your children and running your household yeah Yeah.
[1:46:41] But I don't, yeah, yeah, that's, yeah. I, yeah, yeah.
[1:46:48] You can't use that as a metric as to whether you can trust someone. Because a woman can easily fake being more responsible with money until she gets married to you and gets her hands on your money, and then she can start spending like crazy. It is not a metric by which you can judge someone perfectly or enough to trust them on other matters. also a woman might spend more money and she should she's going to spend more money when she's single why yeah.
[1:47:23] Because she's going out and uh.
[1:47:24] She's going out to try to meet a man she's getting her hair done she's getting her nails done she's getting her mani pedi she's getting her teeth whitened she's she's you know getting makeup she's getting nice clothes she's presenting herself well, so of course she's going to spend more money when she's young and single, so you can't judge her by that. But like her judging you when you're investing into your company last year, well you didn't save a penny. You're like, no, no, no, I'm investing. And then you look at these women's bank accounts and you say, well you're not saving much money. That's because they're investing in their appearance in order to find a higher quality male.
[1:48:04] Yes so you.
[1:48:05] Can't judge women according to their bank accounts.
[1:48:10] But then I'm going to say I think something that is going to do the same so I'm trying to think of it what I said in the past.
[1:48:24] Okay how did your bank balance.
[1:48:26] Look last year how did your bank balance look last year bad right How.
[1:48:31] Did your bank balance look last year?
[1:48:37] Last year, two years or three years ago, it was bad. Three years ago.
[1:48:41] So could a woman judge you by that?
[1:48:49] Yeah, I think that's also a problem because I felt like it would be appropriate to judge me by that and also before that. because I was not having going forward.
[1:49:05] Okay, so it would have been good for a woman to reject you a couple of years ago when you didn't save any money because you were saving your business.
[1:49:15] The answer is no, but what I want to say is yes. It would be a good idea to reject me for that.
[1:49:24] Okay. So your desirability goes up and down And your trustworthiness and desirability goes up and down depending on the fortunes of your father's business. Your quality as a mate is utterly dependent upon whether your father's business is making money or losing money. So a woman should date you when you're making money, hang on, a woman should date you when you're making money, and then break up with you when you lose money.
[1:49:58] Can I try to explain what I think it is? it was I there was not much sort of trust from outside that I could do something that would make money or that I would be if I didn't study then it would go all go wrong and I wouldn't make any money and I just do what I do it wouldn't work out and so that was a little bit what i felt till it and that was also what was happening so it was like really going bad and the thing i wanted to do to make money so i didn't i it was more like to um i didn't think okay you know you're You're just rambling.
[1:50:52] Right?
[1:50:53] No, okay.
[1:50:54] Yeah, you're just rambling. That's just a bunch of nonsense.
[1:50:56] Am I rambling?
[1:50:56] No, you're just rambling because you're not answering my question. I mean, you called me for feedback, and I'm trying to give you feedback.
[1:51:03] Okay, so I was trying to explain something in the middle.
[1:51:06] Yeah, I understand that you invested in your business. I respect you for that, for what that's worth. Good for you. But you said that the woman should reject you a couple of years ago because you didn't save any money. In fact, you probably went into debt in order to save your father's business, right?
[1:51:23] Yes.
[1:51:23] So you should be rejected or accepted based upon the business conditions of your father's balance book, balance sheet, right? If your father's business is making money, then you're a desirable mate. And if your father's business is losing money and you invest just to keep it afloat, then you are an undesirable mate, and that's bad. And you agreed with that? that the woman should reject you if you were doing badly financially.
[1:51:50] Yeah.
[1:51:54] So, in other words, if you are making money, hang on, if you're making money, she should date you. If you're losing money, she should break up with you.
[1:52:05] Yeah, that is like the core of the problem that I feel like that I have like that I am worth something when I can do that, when I can actualize my ID. okay so my wife should have my.
[1:52:22] Wife should have left me when i got deplatformed is that right, no well why not my.
[1:52:30] Income went down enormously, um it was um i'm trying to put it in a sentence uh i did not prove then that i could make something thing that would be able to make money that i on my own i didn't feel like i was worth it now i do but i okay but the business could go badly again right yeah but then at least i know that it's, solvable now i at that time it was not i could not uh get my head around if it was solvable or if okay so sorry.
[1:53:14] If the business problems are not solvable then you lose value again is that right.
[1:53:21] Um um, I feel like the feeling I have is yes, but the correct answer is of course no. But that's like the problem I have, I think.
[1:53:38] The problem is you don't know what value you had to add. Sorry, you don't know what value you have to add except money.
[1:53:48] Which is why you ask for the woman's bank balance and are eager to talk about yours. That's crass. It's kind of trashy. to say that the major value that I provide is money. Now, as a provider, you have to provide money, for sure. But the major value you have to add is not money. Because any thief or central banker can provide money, right? You could counterfeit money, you could steal people's crypto. But that's not good. So it's not that the mere provision of money is the major value you provide. and you're trying to find a way to buy your way into a woman's heart rather than have her admire you for your virtues. So the reason why the bank account thing is offensive is because it's saying to a woman, I want to buy you and I need to compare our balance sheets because in this corporate merger, I don't want to take on excessive liabilities. it's just about money, it's not about love it's not about desire it's not about virtue it's not about honor or dignity or integrity it's about cold hard cash and that's going to make women run for the hills and they should.
[1:55:16] I think also.
[1:55:17] So why is, a marriage whether you get married or not we'll just talk about the term why is a marriage about cash, You got to get that from somewhere, right?
[1:55:38] What do I have to get from somewhere? The cash?
[1:55:41] Well, the idea that the primary, if not the sole value that the man brings to the table is a stack of money. You got to have that idea from somewhere. Did your mother marry your father for money?
[1:55:56] I don't think so.
[1:55:58] Well, he was older. He was a businessman. man, he was successful and he hired her. So was his income far higher than hers at that time?
[1:56:09] I think so. Yes, I think so.
[1:56:19] Okay. So she made money in a sense by getting married or by getting together with your dad.
[1:56:27] Yeah.
[1:56:33] How has your mother weathered the downturns in your father's business which are inevitable.
[1:56:40] Um actually think not good but also not that bad but not it it was not like a thing to break apart over i think but it was like it was stressful but it was not uh, they are still together now and it went like super bad a couple years ago okay so.
[1:57:06] What what does she do when the business went through its tough times which all businesses do right but what what did your mother do how did she react.
[1:57:13] Um she uh came and helped okay you said i'm.
[1:57:24] Looking I was looking for the negative stuff, sorry, I was unclear. You said that she had some negative experiences when your father's business ran into tough times.
[1:57:36] Yeah, I think they, but they don't fight a lot, so they probably had, like, a little bit more.
[1:57:43] Brother, brother, listen. I asked how your mother handled it, and you said, not well.
[1:57:49] Oh, oh, sorry, did I say not well? I meant, like, not really, it was not that bad, the handling, sorry, not well. Sorry, did I?
[1:58:05] No listen i understand there's a bit of a barrier so i'm not going to nitpick my understanding was that you said i said how did your mother handle when your father's business went uh went went had trouble and you said not well now maybe it's meant to say not too badly or it was fine or but was it was it negative for her in other words was there any diminishment of affection or any kind of diminishment in commitment or or anything like that yes.
[1:58:32] Yes yes okay sorry Sorry, yes, yeah, and yeah, I think, yeah. But I'm not like totally sure on what level it was. It was like you could feel it a little bit, that there was like a little bit less attraction or something.
[1:58:48] Okay, so then your mother dials up and down, to some degree, your mother dials up and down her affection based on how much money your father is making.
[1:59:01] Probably, yeah.
[1:59:03] Okay. So that would explain why you view money as the fuel for pair bonding.
[1:59:13] Yeah, maybe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think so. I also think so. I am the one who is now the only one who is actually focusing on money in the company and making spreadsheets. and when we can pay off the debts and stuff and how much money will be left in...
[1:59:38] Sorry, what does that have to do with your parents?
[1:59:41] Now that I'm hyper-focused on money now recently because if I didn't, then...
[1:59:49] Sorry, if you didn't, what would happen? Okay, so let's say that your father's business goes bankrupt.
[1:59:54] Yeah.
[1:59:55] Right? What happens to your parents' marriage? And we just call it a marriage for whatever. It's been together so long.
[2:00:03] I think they would stay together. Only my mother would not be that happy about it, and my dad wouldn't really mind living smaller than my mother would.
[2:00:14] Okay. So, your father, to some degree, has to pay for your mother's love.
[2:00:21] Yeah, maybe. Yeah, that's a good... That's a... a pretty harsh point. I'm trying to...
[2:00:29] That's why I said, to some degree. I'm not saying a hundred percent, but to some degree.
[2:00:34] Yeah, to some degree, but not, uh, yeah.
[2:00:39] Okay. Let me ask you the most essential question about your parents' marriage or any relationship. If your mother, hmm, let me find and figure out the best way to put this, right? If your father came to your mother and said, we can maintain or increase our standard of living, but I'm going to have to do some questionable things, not totally illegal, not totally bad, but I'm just going to have to make some promises I'm not sure I can fulfill. I'm going to have to do some kind of shady stuff that I'm not super comfortable with. And if I don't do this stuff, our income is going to get cut by 75% or 50%. would your mother rather have the money at the cost a little bit of your father's integrity or would she say, I'm willing to give up half the income in order for you to keep a clean conscience?
[2:01:40] I would think she would go for the money. Right. Because that is sort of what is happening. Yeah. A little bit.
[2:01:52] No, because everyone faces that in business every day. You know this. Everyone faces that in business every day. Do I tell the truth and lose money, or do I bend the truth and make money? I mean, I think I, of most people in the world, have most publicly made that choice, right? I told the truth, and it cost me, well, a lot, right?
[2:02:15] Yeah, very cool.
[2:02:16] Well, I mean, the people around me would infinitely rather I have a good conscience and less money than more money and a bad conscience.
[2:02:31] Yeah.
[2:02:34] And I would give up a lot to have a good conscience. because if I don't have a good conscience how can I be loved? I mean having a good conscience means that you are happy and pleased with yourself, and you respect your own decisions and you can't ask more affection from others than you're willing to provide to yourself you can't ask for more respect from others than you have for yourself, So if your mother would choose money over virtue, then you have a problem, and this is why you don't date. The reason you don't date is that you want to not end up in the situation that your father is in, where you have to throw money at a woman, in part, to get her affection, because that's kind of gross.
[2:03:34] Yeah, that's very gross.
[2:03:36] Okay. So you are going to have to criticize that in your own mind and heart. It doesn't have to be to your parents. You just have to know in your own mind and your own heart, that's not what I want. I don't think it's particularly noble for a man to buy his wife's love.
[2:03:56] No.
[2:03:57] And so you don't have a way to trust women because you're viewing every woman through the lens of your mother and you're saying well if i want the love of a woman she better not be in debt because if she's in debt i have to give money to whoever i have to give my money to whoever lent the money that's less for her so she'll love me less she better have a bank account because she's She's a spender. I'm going to have to subsidize that, or she won't love me. Now, this goes back to your mother. When she was 25 years old, she'd been dating this guy who was the drinker and the smoker for five years. Now, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the 32-year-old entrepreneur who was your father made a hell of a lot more money than the partying, drinking, 25-year-old high school boyfriend of your mother's.
[2:04:51] I have to be honest I don't actually think yeah maybe at the time it's true I think now that guy makes more money no.
[2:04:59] No no I didn't say now I said we're going back.
[2:05:00] Forget now so she made the.
[2:05:04] Decision to jump ship okay her boyfriend was he better looking than your father.
[2:05:12] Um yeah by one point Okay.
[2:05:17] So she gave up some looks in order to go for the guy with more money.
[2:05:27] She says that it's because it was more interesting because it was not that service level. Because my dad talks about more stuff and he is more like a farmer.
[2:05:41] Her okay right i'm not saying that's the only reason that she was attracted to him i'm not saying that's the only basis for their relationship but she dials up and down her affection based upon his business success and honestly to me that's just kind of gross and that makes a man feel like a workhorse who's loved only for the money he hands over, And it turns the woman into a little bit of a word I won't mention here, but I'm sure we can all figure that one out. A little bit, right? Because you have to love the virtue in the person. Because there's great insecurity in being loved for your money, because there's always a richer guy.
[2:06:26] Yeah.
[2:06:27] Right? And even if you're the richest guy, Elon Musk or something, there's some other guy who's going to give more time and attention because he's not working 18 hours a day. So if you are loved for your virtues and who you are, essentially, then you can weather these storms and there's much less up and down in your marriage.
[2:06:49] Those are the three good points, I think.
[2:06:53] So you need to find a way to trust women outside of your ability to provide. Because your ability to provide is kind of out of your control directly. Let me sort of explain what I mean by this. So, in order to love someone, you have to trust them. Now, you can't trust someone if what you love about them is not under their control. So, for instance, whether I tell the truth or not is under my control. Whether I act with integrity or not is under my control. I mean, there's pressures and there's influences and pluses and minuses, but it's fundamentally under my control. Does that make sense?
[2:07:35] Yeah.
[2:07:37] Now, how much money I make, I have some influence over it, but it is not directly under my control. Okay.
[2:07:48] True. I agree.
[2:07:50] I mean, the economy goes up and down. Interest rates go up and down. Inflation goes up and up. There's COVID. There's lockdowns. There's deplatforming. There's any wide variety of things. The economy as a whole can go hard, which is tough then for everybody's income, right? So how much money you make, you can influence it, but it's not directly under your control. Your virtues are under your control.
[2:08:17] Yeah very true so.
[2:08:19] If you love someone for her virtues then you can trust them because they have shown reasonably consistent good moral decisions nobody i mean i don't know what perfect moral decisions are i don't think that standard exists but they've shown reasonably positive and consistent moral decisions and so what you love about them their virtues is under their control and they They have a good track record. If it's money, though, it comes and goes. It comes and goes. Sometimes you're up, sometimes you're down, sometimes you're sideways, right? I mean, I have a lot of entrepreneurs, as you can imagine, in my social circle, and, you know, it's quite a roller coaster. I mean, I have friends who invested in, I won't even say what it is, but something that turned out to be completely destroyed by COVID. Now, could they have seen that coming? No. So if the woman, if the wife in that relationship loved her husband because of its ability to make money, well, the fact that COVID and lockdowns and all this nonsense hit meant that he couldn't make any money. So does that mean she's not going to love him? It's not his fault. It's not under his control that COVID comes along, right? Right?
[2:09:32] Yeah. No, I totally understand it. It's like the most stressful thing to be judged for because it can fall away or it can be super high.
[2:09:41] And sometimes you give up money in order to maintain your virtue.
[2:09:52] Yeah.
[2:09:52] And so, if your mother would choose money over your father's integrity, she's actually choosing that, which is more variable, which means she can't trust him or herself. And she's also actually costing herself love. She is selling her love for money. yeah because because if your father ends up compromising some business integrity or some virtue for the sake of making money then she will actually love and respect him less, and this is probably why he has a more feminine role in the relationship as a whole as you you mentioned right yeah.
[2:10:36] Yeah it's not like um it's true but it's not like um, like a hundred percent true it's not like the black and white but it's uh.
[2:10:52] Okay do you think do you think do you when i've listened brother you've got to listen to people it's it's crazy what you're having a conversation with yourself do you remember how many caveats i put in to some degree a little bit right do you remember me saying all of that.
[2:11:08] Yeah you do.
[2:11:10] And i do remember i very clearly said i'm not saying that's the only reason they got together oh okay Okay, so this is the problem, is this is why it's hard for you to have relationships, because you don't listen sometimes. I'm very careful in what I say. I put a lot of caveats in. Do you remember all of those? Saying there's no way it's 100%.
[2:11:33] It's only this degree.
[2:11:34] It's only a little bit, it's only a factor, right? And then you come back at me saying, well, Steph, but it's not 100%. When I was very careful over the last 20 minutes to tell you exactly that it wasn't 100%.
[2:11:46] You're right, you're right.
[2:11:51] So when I put that much effort into being clear in my communications and then you pretend to completely misunderstand me, do you know what most people do? They say this is too much work, he doesn't listen it doesn't matter what I say, he's just going to hear what he wants to hear this is not a two-way street, he's not listening to me so why would I talk? and this is what women will experience with you, I guarantee you, women will say you stuff that they very carefully say, they carefully make sure they're being fair, and you just take it to a ridiculous extreme and rebut a total straw man. Because I never said it was 100%. In fact, I was very, very careful to say it was not a huge factor, it was a small part. So then when you come back and say, yes, but Steph, it's not 100% when I've already said it's only 10% or 20% maybe, or something there too, what you're telling people very clearly is, is I don't listen. I'm having a conversation with myself and what you say doesn't really matter.
[2:12:47] Now, is a woman of quality who wants to have a great conversation for the rest of her life, which is that what marriage is. Marriage is a great conversation for the rest of your life. Is a woman of quality when you clearly express, well, first of all, you complain about problems and then say that they're not problems, and then you rebut something that was never said, which shows you're disconnected from the actual conversation. Is a quality woman going to look forward to that for the rest of her life? no so that's what you need to fix and you can't fix it by asking for a woman's bank balance that's my point.
[2:13:23] That's a very good point.
[2:13:25] So learning to listen without being defensive without, fighting a fight that nobody's fighting except you right i never said your parents were 100 based on money in fact i was very careful and then you come back and it's good that you did I'm not mad that you did that because that's the challenge, right? So, in your family, and we can sort of, I know we've talked for a long time, we can close on this point, but in your family, how good is the listening?
[2:13:53] How good is the listening?
[2:13:54] Yeah.
[2:14:04] I would say it's good, but I don't think it anymore works. no so i don't really know.
[2:14:12] Yeah i mean because probably three or four times i i pointed out that you kept bringing problems to my attention and then saying that they weren't problems but you just kept doing it remember i sort of laughing and said you're like a force of nature with this repetition yes.
[2:14:25] I remember that.
[2:14:26] Right so that means you're not listening to what i'm saying and saying oh well this is not productive and it's annoying so i should stop doing it you You just did it. You just kept doing it, right? Which means that the giving and receiving of information is not great in your household growing up. It kind of been, because otherwise you'd be better at this. And I'm not criticizing in any foundational way. I'm just saying that this is a skill set that's not very advanced, if that makes sense.
[2:14:54] That's very good to hear. That's a nice, concrete thing to start to fix.
[2:15:01] And can you imagine how great it's going to be in the business world if you improve your listening skills as a whole?
[2:15:08] That would be a good uh i.
[2:15:11] Mean you can make a fortune if you if you're a competent businessman and you can improve your listening skills then because customers are telling you what they want all the time right yeah and if you genuinely are listening then i mean the way that i work these conversations is you've listened to these call-ins before so i know for certain that everything you're telling me that is provocative is a cry for help because you know i'm going to call you on it right so when i say it's only a small factor and you say well it's not a hundred percent you know for a fact i'm going to call you on it right and i'm not going to do it in a mean or abusive way but i'm going to be pretty direct does that make sense uh.
[2:15:46] That makes no sense that's why i called because.
[2:15:49] Yeah yeah it's.
[2:15:51] The good stuff um yeah so.
[2:15:56] If you if you listen to a woman she will tell you whether she's trustworthy or not but because you have trouble sometimes listening which we all do. I mean, please understand, I'm not perfect at this either, without a doubt, right? So I'm right down there with you, right? So people tell you everything you need to know about them in the first few minutes. So if you really, really listen to a woman, you will find out very quickly if you can trust her or not. Does she show genuine interest in what you say? If you say something that's false or annoying, does she push back in a reasonable and positive manner, right? Right? Does she generally make good decisions in her life? Or if she's made bad decisions, which we all have, has she learned from them?
[2:16:40] Does she have a reasonably clear moral map of her life? In other words, people who did the right and wrong things, just as she did the right and wrong things, just as you and I do the right and wrong things, does she have a reasonable moral map? And what I mean by that is, if she had a father who beat her and never apologized to her, does she say, but I love him and we have a great relationship, right? That would be a bad moral map. That would be like, well, the lion keeps mauling me, but I go and feed it and hug it anyway. Well, that's just not having any sense of danger and, in fact, putting yourself in repetitive danger. Is she like an NPC? Does she have talking points? If you bring up something unusual or something original, does she kind of skid to a halt and, like a train, jump in the tracks and just go crash into the ditch or something? Does she have the ability to think and process information in real time? Is she easily offended? Right? which means that she's substituted propaganda for a genuine emotional life. So, I mean, these are just ways in which you can talk with people. Is she an open listener? Is she curious about you? Does she reveal things about herself that make sense? Like, I've always wanted to be a writer. Oh, what have you written? Well, nothing really. Okay, like just things that don't add up or make sense. Is her life generally consistent? I mean, these are just sort of rough guidelines, but all of these things are going to give you way more information than her bank balance. Sorry, go ahead.
[2:17:59] Yeah, I think the negative part of listening is actually pretty good for me. Only the positive, like hearing like the positive stuff is not good or something. Is that possible or am I just doing the same thing again?
[2:18:16] I'm not sure what you mean by the negative part.
[2:18:19] Like all the negative stuff you just said, I always hear that in listening to girls. I always hear those things like they go to like a thing that you always hear on the news or they have like some weird thing that happened in the youth that they still love. Parents, that's always stuff I hear. But I think I'm not good at hearing the positive stuff.
[2:18:47] But if you heard and were able to identify the negative, then you wouldn't need to ask for the bank account.
[2:18:56] Okay, okay, but that's, yeah, okay, okay, I'm not going to.
[2:19:00] So if you ask for the bank account, it means you still have doubt as to whether they're responsible. Now, the fact that people repeat stuff from the news, the fact, like, you're a young man, and so a young woman your age, roughly your age, she's going to have inconsistencies, she's going to have a somewhat muddled moral map, and she's going to have some NPC talking points. Why? Because you do, because I do, because everyone does, particularly at that age. So we don't listen for, oh, there's an inconsistency here, and therefore we abandon, right? Because that's to say, I'm perfect, and everyone else is flawed. So you have inconsistencies in your mind map, so will the young. And that's just a feature of youth. And there's nothing wrong with that, because it's one of the things that allows young people to be fearless and ambitious, is that they're a little bit delusional and sometimes that delusion stuff can produce great things right so i have no problem with that but the problem is if you're sitting there being in a judgment position right if you say well this woman she she said something from the mainstream media right she talked about i don't know uh trump told people to drink bleach i don't know whatever the equivalent would be where where you are right so some talking point okay so so So she's got a talking point. So what? So do you. So do I sometimes, right? We're all completely free of the talking points. So it's not, does she have talking points? I write her off.
[2:20:25] No, I mean, yeah. Ideological. You can hear if somebody is super like...
[2:20:29] Well, you just, what you do is you provide some counter information and see how they handle it. And if they're like, well, that can't be true. But, you know, maybe you're right. Let's look it up together. And oh my gosh, that is right. Oh my gosh. Trump didn't tell people to drink bleach. Well, that's interesting, right? I didn't know that, right? So it's not whether they have these talking points or whatever. It is a question of how do they deal with new information? Now, if they're just like, well, here's a counter talking point, and they say, well, you're just a far-right fascist. It's like, okay, well, then you don't need to ask for their bank account because you don't want to be in a relationship with them because they're already in a relationship with their boyfriend is the media, right? And they'll never cheat with you. They'll never cheat on the media with you. so it's I guess I would be concerned that the moment you see any kind of red flag you ditch or you bail or you judge or you distance.
[2:21:28] Now, only very unhealthy women would chase your approval in that way. Because when you judge people as woefully deficient and so on, and never give them a chance because they put one foot wrong, well, that's not attractive. Because, you know, you put feet wrong, I put feet wrong, we say things that we regret, we say things that are wrong, we say things that are mistakes. I've got a whole series called I Was Wrong About... So, I can't be in a relationship where I have to be perfect, perfect because that's kind of vainglorious on the part of the other person because they're only judging me because they have this weird delusion that they're perfect and that's just not true and i don't want to bother pleasing people who are deluded and i'm not calling you fundamentally deluded i'm just saying that if you have this judgment side then part of it is communicating you're deficient which means i'm way better right like if you go and learn tennis it has to be from somebody who knows tennis really really well right so yeah and they'll be judging you and you'll will accept their correction but that's not a relationship of equals and a confident woman does not want to be in a subservient relationship to a guy who thinks he's perfect because that's just exhausting and and the person will never grow and they'll just be judging you forever and that's no fun right.
[2:22:37] Now okay that's uh that's a good point okay okay the the and uh and i have The last thing is that I have to couple the making money stuff away from my worth.
[2:23:03] Yes. I mean, you do have to provide money to a woman and children, right? You do have to do that. I mean, if you're going to work and she's going to stay home, assuming she's not independently wealthy, you're going to have to provide some resources but you can't be loved for your money because the money is not directly under your control and in order to trust someone they have to love you for who you are because who you are is kind of permanent and you know you'll make good or bad decisions but you'll generally will correct your course right but the money is not under your control and sometimes the two are at are at odds so sometimes you have to give up the money in In order to retain your integrity. And if the woman loves you for your integrity, she will tell you, don't take the money. Walk away from the money. Give up the money. We'll find a way to make it. But I don't want you to get paid to cross your conscience. So a good woman will tell you, walk away from the money. I want you. And I want you to be happy. And I want you to have a good relationship with your conscience. And I want to admire you. I don't want the money. Now that, to me, is real love.
[2:24:24] And also what I want, so I don't know why I have this right. I just like that.
[2:24:37] Well, I mean, I think you'll listen back to this, and we did talk about your mother and your father, that your mother has a bit more of a love for money than integrity, integrity and that may be something that that you can examine within your own family of origin because that's the template through which i think you would view women as a whole.
[2:24:55] Yeah okay thank you very much.
[2:24:57] Thanks a lot bye.
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