0:00 - Introduction to the Journey
18:44 - Childhood Reflections
43:09 - The Parental Influence
1:12:39 - The Burden of Unhappiness
1:13:35 - Role-Playing with Parents
1:15:51 - Confronting Parental Ignorance
1:22:04 - The Weight of Criticism
1:26:30 - The Impact of Parental Dynamics
1:30:35 - Defining Real Relationships
1:35:57 - Choosing a Different Path
1:41:44 - Acknowledging the Past
In this call in, Stefan engages in a deep and revealing conversation with a caller about significant issues stemming from his childhood and ongoing challenges with relationships. The caller, reflecting on his upbringing in Western Europe, recounts his journey through education, feeling out of place due to being younger than his peers. He attended high school at the unexpectedly young age of 12, leading to a prolonged period of isolation and a lack of friendships. It wasn't until he moved into higher education in logistics that he began to form a couple of social connections, but those experiences yield a painful narrative of loneliness that persisted for years, not only in school but through his time in the army, which he left after only three months due to feeling miserable.
As the conversation progresses, Stefan becomes interested in uncovering the caller's family background, particularly his relationship dynamics with his parents and his brother. The caller describes his mother as dominant and aggressive, often resorting to yelling as a form of discipline, while his father was more submissive and non-confrontational. This disparity in parenting techniques created a turbulent home environment, leading the caller to often feel trapped between their conflicting styles. Clear examples are given, including a specific instance involving a seemingly trivial argument about yogurt that escalated into a significant conflict. The caller acknowledges having more personality traits similar to his mother, which potentially contributed to his difficulties in managing interpersonal conflicts.
Stefan queries the caller further about his childhood, exploring the discipline methods imposed by his parents, particularly the emotional impact of verbal chastisement rather than constructive engagement. The caller stresses that his father rarely intervened, further heightening his mother's dominance within the household. When asked about any emotional bonding or coping mechanisms with his family, the caller reveals an instinctual desire to avoid conflict, obeying his mother in order to keep peace at the expense of addressing the emotional turmoil brewing underneath.
A substantial shift occurs in the conversation when Stefan addresses the present, particularly the caller's frustration regarding his inability to pursue romantic relationships. The caller lists several qualities—financial stability, physical attractiveness, and personal fulfillment—that would ostensibly make him a suitable partner. However, he confides his struggles with low self-confidence and the inability to approach women. This self-doubt is linked back to his childhood experiences, hinting at deep-rooted feelings of inadequacy and fear that stem from being raised in an environment where emotional needs went largely unmet.
Stefan challenges the caller's preconceived notions about relationships, particularly how his upbringing shapes his current view. Through a series of psychologically probing questions, Stefan steers the conversation towards addressing the fundamental patterns of behavior that the caller internalized from his parents. The conversation delves deeply into how not only did the caller's parents fail to listen to him as a child but that the avoidance of emotional discussions is something he now inadvertently replicates in his adult life.
In a candid moment, the caller is confronted with the reality that his relationship with women may mirror the dysfunctional dynamics observed in his parents' relationship, where emotional abandonment and neglect became the norm. This realization leads him to confront the painful truth about his emotional landscape and the notion that he might indeed be replicating the same patterns of suppressing his feelings and needs.
As the call in unfolds, the caller openly grapples with feelings of helplessness and sadness regarding his familial relationships. Although he expresses a strong desire to break free from these toxic patterns, he acknowledges how deeply ingrained they are within him. The call concludes with an emphasis on the need for the caller to recognize and denormalize his parents' behavior as a way to enable personal growth and make healthier choices moving forward. Stefan encourages the caller to actively seek constructive relationships rather than falling back into familiar, albeit dysfunctional, patterns.
Ultimately, this conversation serves as a powerful insight into the intricacies of personal development in the shadow of childhood emotional neglect, revealing the ongoing struggle to reconcile past experiences with aspirations for a fulfilling future. The caller's journey reflects a broader narrative of the long-lasting impact of familial dynamics on adult relationships and the importance of acknowledging and addressing these influences to cultivate healthier interactions.
[0:00] How can I best help?
[0:01] Yeah, right. And I'll give you a brief recap of my life. Well, I grew up in Western Europe. Currently I'm in my early 20s. I was one of the youngest persons in my classes as long as I've been in school. I went to high school when I was 12. I was the youngest one there. I had no friends. For two years, and after two years, I finally got a couple friends.
[0:44] After that, I went to a sort of a bit of higher education into a logistics field i uh yeah i i just chose it because like yeah you need to do something it wasn't really like a big passion of my head at the time uh and well yeah afterwards i uh go if it happens i uh chose to go to the army, and I went there for a couple I prepared for a year for that and I left after three months because I was so miserable there, and then I started working at the company I currently work at and now things are looking well way better because I'm moving out this week, I'm starting promotion next month and uh yeah i like what i do that's uh that's the brief of it well.
[1:49] Uh what do you think is uh i'm always interested in what's missing from people's conversations about their childhood in particular or their youth what do you think is missing.
[1:58] Uh maybe the relationship with my parents and my brother yeah yeah.
[2:04] You just talked about your childhood and the biggest influence on our childhood as our parents. So what is the story there, my friend?
[2:12] Yeah well uh my big well my my mom was always very very dominant uh my bad dad was always very uh, kind of a bit more like submissive every time there was like a conflict he usually like he usually de-escalated and um he always uh basically just uh if he if he if my mother said a and he wanted b then he would just say he would say a but he would do b and that would also of course create a lot of conflict uh i um have more of the percentage of my mother and not always to my liking but i do uh and that's why i always i'm a bit more like um i escalate a bit more i always went into to like my mother was arguing uh i would argue back i would be the only one to argue back, basically and that's why we would get in a lot of fights with my mother my father was mostly just, nice to me and my brother also has a bit more of my father so he also never really went into any argument with my mom, okay sorry go ahead no no no you go ahead.
[3:32] How were you disciplined if you were.
[3:36] I was just yelled at. One time there was a physical thing, but my mom apologized a lot for that, like for even years afterwards. So mostly, but every time it was just like physically, like just verbally screaming at me. And my dad usually didn't really discipline me very much.
[4:04] So what do you mean by screaming?
[4:07] I mean, just like, yeah, raising our voice a lot. And screaming at me that, I don't know, sometimes thinks about my future. Like, oh, if you don't do this now, then you will be a deadbeat later in life or something. And yes, she was very much a hammer on that, that you need to do this. I can't really remember what it was about. It was, one time was just about like a cup of yogurt. I remember. And like, it's very, I mean, it's very fake to me. What it all was about because.
[4:48] Sorry, what is, sorry, I'm having a little trouble understanding you when you said something that's very fake to you.
[4:55] Yeah, it was vague to me. Like what, what's.
[4:57] Oh, vague. Sorry, vague. I got it. Okay. Okay.
[5:01] It was a vague to me what she was getting very angry at. that's uh so.
[5:05] Tell me the yoga story uh.
[5:08] Well my my uh brother uh, he wanted to eat some yogurt and my dad said like you already ate enough you don't need it, but he wanted it anyway and then my mom and my dad started like this well my mom like started getting really angry at my dad or something because it was because you don't want to make it dirty well because we put the yogurt in like a a cup and we don't make the cup dirty because the washing, the dishwasher was already on. And yeah, she got very mad at that. Because well, we yeah, because the dishwasher couldn't get run on time or whatever. It was yeah, I was very young so most of this I don't really like. It's not really like an active memory for me. I don't really think about this. at all, mostly.
[6:12] And so, sorry, go ahead.
[6:14] The present day is a bit more there. I tend to do a lot more chores around the house because mainly that makes, well, my mom also very less argumentative with me. So I just sort of surrender with that. So I do a lot of cooking now. I do a lot of yeah, like dog walks and stuff like that. And then the grocery shopping. That's also something I do.
[6:46] And how old are you now?
[6:49] I'm 23.
[6:50] 23, okay. And you're back home after the... How long ago did you leave the army?
[6:56] I left the army about three years ago now. A little bit less.
[7:04] But All right. And what are you hoping to get the most of out of this conversation?
[7:12] Well, mainly I can't seem to figure out why I don't have a relationship with a girl or whatever, because I would think, mainly I would do things right. According to most people, I'm physically fit, I have quite some money, I have a decent job, and I'm going to get even better ones very soon. But I can't get myself to talk to a lot of girls.
[7:47] Sorry, so you're saying that you sort of check off the list of what girls are looking for, but you can't talk to girls?
[7:57] Yeah, at least I think that.
[7:59] Sorry, what do you mean you think that? Do you talk to girls?
[8:01] I don't talk to girls.
[8:04] Okay, so that's not a theory, right? That's like a fact. You don't talk to girls, right?
[8:09] Yeah.
[8:09] Yeah okay i'm not criticizing i just want to make sure i understand if we're dealing with, uh subjective or objective things if that makes sense yeah okay okay and why do you think you don't talk to girls oh.
[8:26] There you there's this conversation a bit for um well why i i always think I have very low confidence. I just never think like, oh, am I like my perfect self right now? And always just never, yes. I'm never perfect. I'm never like the maximum I can get out of me at a given time. I can always be better. And that's what I think, even though it's kind of unreasonable because, you know, the girl's also probably not like perfect right.
[8:59] Right okay so what would be perfection for you and what would that look like.
[9:04] Uh being uh earning all the money uh having a nice house uh being very uh, very good looking with uh physically and uh oh yeah and having a success in the business world that I say this with that. That would be kind of like my perfection, I think.
[9:30] Got it. Okay. I think I understand. I think I understand.
[9:36] Yes.
[9:37] Okay. So do you think that it's reasonable to expect or want that at your age? I mean, men don't really hit their prime earning years until their 40s or 50s or whatever, right?
[9:52] Yes. Yeah, I know. But I know it just, I heard after listening to all the studies mainly, I know that it's important. And most people get together when they're like young. And I would like to have that. I would like to grow with somebody to a better place, if you understand.
[10:15] Right. Okay. Okay. When did you first start to become really interested in girls?
[10:28] Uh in the the physical attraction sense.
[10:32] Yeah uh around 13 about 13 okay yeah and it's your your brother is older is that right yeah.
[10:43] He's uh about four years older.
[10:45] About four years older okay uh and so when you began to get interested in girls in that sort of you know that It's obviously fairly, you know, hormonal and all of that, which is fine. But when you started to get really interested in girls, how did you experience that? Or what were your thoughts about that?
[11:08] Well, it was very, I mean, many physical. I felt like they were just very, very good looking. and yeah that's that was maybe yeah the hormonal aspect of it had a lot to do with it I'm.
[11:23] Sorry that was what the.
[11:25] Hormonal aspect had a lot to do with it it does.
[11:27] It does yeah I get that okay alright sorry go ahead.
[11:32] I don't really have much thought into that okay.
[11:37] And did you talk to anyone about this.
[11:41] About yeah I have with my brother and with a friend who's also originally a friend for my brothers. I also have a very good friendship with him now. So yeah, I have a conversation with them, but it never seems to lead to a lot of action for me. The closest thing I got to having a relationship with a girl was about a year ago. And there was a lot of self-sabotage at my end. Because I didn't even conceive what would happen if she said yes. I would just assume that she would say yes.
[12:18] Okay, tell me a little bit about that, if you can.
[12:22] Well, it was a girl. She had a lot of red flags, and I knew that from the start. But I was still into her. And after a while, I was finally like, oh, hey, want to go do something with me? And she said yes. But I just never thought that she would even say yes, that it just didn't come up to me. So I had no idea what we were going to do. And then we just never ended up doing it. And then she got a boyfriend and she moved on.
[12:59] Right. Okay. And so you tell me a little bit about that. So how old were you? And give me the sort of circumstances and details of that.
[13:10] I was just out of the army. I was 20. at around 21. So I've been working for there about a year, year and a half. And then she was also working there.
[13:25] Sorry, working where?
[13:27] Working where the company where I work at, a big logistics company.
[13:30] Okay.
[13:32] And she was also working there and we just kind of caught on. She complimented me because of a shirt I was wearing. And I was totally unaware aware of it i was just like oh yeah thanks whatever and i just moved uh but later on i was just oh hey then she actually gave me a compliment and then i went and talked to her and, well we kind of uh clicked for a bit okay so you talked.
[14:02] To her and then what.
[14:04] I talked to her it was nice for a while we just kind of like friendly and after a couple months So I asked her to do something. I asked her if she wanted to go out with me, basically. She said yes. We never ended up ever doing anything. And at some point, she just got a...
[14:21] Sorry, you asked her to go out with you, but you never went anywhere or did anything with her?
[14:26] No. Yeah, correct.
[14:27] And why did you not do anything with her, do you think?
[14:31] I always say because she did not have a very... She had a lot of red flags.
[14:37] And what were those red flags? Red flags.
[14:39] Well for once she actually had red hair like painted uh oh she.
[14:44] Had dyed red hair is that right.
[14:45] Yeah dyed red hair okay uh she uh had a nose piercing she faved uh she uh did uh some drugs occasionally with her friends she had a very extremely like a weird sleep schedule, where she would stay awake till one wake up at five to go to work and then she would like go to bed again, when she was done with the first shift basically right okay so I just knew like and she wanted to be an artist I wanted to have more of a, stable type of life I think yeah so I mean bullet dodged right, yeah basically okay, yeah you could put it like that well.
[15:32] I mean it is in a way right i mean if she was not going to be a good a good woman for you then you probably didn't want to get get involved right because once you're in right you're in right and it could be kind of tough to to get back out again.
[15:45] Yeah but i never had like an yeah but it was the first time i actually like felt i had the chance to get an in, right because that's actually the first girl i actually like had a long conversation a longer conversation with them and I very much clicked, which was of my age, of course, a girl of my age.
[16:03] Right, right.
[16:05] Yeah.
[16:06] And how long ago was that?
[16:09] It was about a year ago now.
[16:12] Okay, so we kind of went from 13 to 22.
[16:16] Yes.
[16:17] So what happened from 13 to 22? So you start getting interested in girls.
[16:22] I was about the lowest social ladder at my school, as you can imagine. For the first two years, I didn't have any friends. Or if I had some people I occasionally sit next to, but it made it usually did not end up like hanging out it was just i was always sitting alone i prefer to sit alone because i was always feel like i didn't really belong at that school.
[16:52] And why didn't you belong at the school.
[16:54] For well i was very sorry young i was like a younger than most people right i uh this made me very uh physically uh yeah weak i could very easily be overpowered i did not really think uh highly of myself so yeah i didn't have a lot of confidence.
[17:17] Okay i mean the size thing is not deterministic right i mean i was the youngest kid in my boarding school so um that doesn't mean that you can't be friends it's got to be something else you said there's sort of low self-esteem or whatever but that doesn't answer much.
[17:33] Yeah i never really wanted to have a lot of contact with them because i always think i was going to switch to a like a, bit of a higher education so i always thought like oh i'll be gone here in a year or in two years But I never ended up materializing because every time I would go home, the last thing I wanted to do is to be at school, to actually work for school. So I ended up getting up higher on the ladder, so to say. And after that, after two years, because it was like a cutoff date, after two years, if you don't have those grades, then you can't get it. so after two years I did not get the grades so I stayed there after that it was a bit more a bit better I actually ended up hanging out with a bunch of kids, and after that the next two years were just like hanging out with them and not much not much else not very many interactions with girls at the time also, Okay.
[18:44] And how would you describe your emotional state in your early teens?
[18:57] Sort of. prideful in a way if uh so i i always felt like sort of um, really superior to the others because i thought i was smarter so i was basically i thought i was better than than most people even though there was no indication of that, i um so that's really prideful i felt better than most of those people, Oh yeah, I was kind of frustrated that I had to be there all the time. I hated school.
[19:38] So you hated that you went bigger?
[19:42] No, no, no. I hated school. I just didn't like being there because if you don't have any friends for the first two years, then maybe you can understand that that's not a very nice place to be.
[19:54] And what efforts if any did you make to or did you take to make friends.
[20:02] Uh okay so I just went to hang out with this one guy who was we did a couple of group projects together we sort of clicked on uh, and afterwards I just sort of yeah went in with his with his group and then we were the four of us until uh, the end, basically, until I was done with high school.
[20:27] Yeah, no, I'm just talking about the, in the two years, or year or two, that you were trying to get friends. What steps did you take?
[20:41] I didn't really take any steps.
[20:44] So you chose to not have friends?
[20:47] Yeah, I chose to sit alone. long yeah i always i didn't like when people like would come to my i found a little corner at school where basically most people wouldn't go to and i always disliked people went there so i was very much a kind of a loner i usually did my school homework at that place in the the breaks so that i wouldn't have to do anything at home and.
[21:12] Did you miss kids or did you enjoy i guess more the feeling of superiority and so on.
[21:24] Yeah and i i think i felt that the superior feeling was probably felt a little bit it was a lot easier to cope that way i think so i think i i like that more sorry.
[21:35] But cope with what.
[21:36] Uh cope with that like a situation i mean okay but the situation that you're.
[21:41] In you had to cope with because you felt superior like if you feel superior and don't make any friends friends, then it's not, you can't say that the superiority, like it's what comes first, right? If the superiority comes first, then you feel superior, you don't make friends, but then you can't say, well, my superiority was a way of coping with not having friends. Does that make sense?
[22:08] Yeah, yeah, in a way it does.
[22:10] Okay, so you came in with a sense of superiority. And I guess my question is, where does that, where did that come from?
[22:20] Oh, I just thought I was smarter than most people.
[22:23] No, no, I understand that. I understand that. But where did that sense of superiority come from as a whole? Because you can be smart and still make friends. There are other smart kids around and so on, right? So the vanity, I guess. Where does the vanity come from?
[22:47] Maybe because I sort of got raised as higher class. Maybe that.
[22:52] I'm sorry, you got erased? I didn't follow that.
[22:55] Yeah, raised like in the class. You have like a working class. You have like upper middle class. I was sort of raised upper middle class. And most people were, most kids there were from like just working class. They were just, I, yeah. Yeah, it was maybe a bit of the way I was raised.
[23:12] Okay, so were you raised to be snobby that way?
[23:18] Well... Yeah, not by my dad at least. My mom maybe a little bit because of certain word choices in my language. A lot of people say certain phrases wrong. It's not actually how you properly say them. And my mother always corrected me if I said it wrong. So I always said it right. So I always thought, hey, I can talk better than most people.
[23:50] Yeah, yeah. My mom was like, well, I know that I say, can I do this? She says, well, I know that you can, but I don't know that you may. She always wanted to make me get the right phrase. So I get that.
[24:00] Yeah, stuff like that. Okay.
[24:02] So did your parents feel superior to people as well?
[24:08] Uh my dad certainly didn't but i was a bit of friends with everybody he can just talk to everybody he's very uh he's an extremely social guy and he also later in life he tried to actually help me get like uh i mean sort of introduce me to some girls at the gym because he just talks to everybody so he can also talk to the girls there uh and then uh and yeah so he tried I tried to help, but she was very social. My mother, well, yeah, I look a lot more like her personality-wise. So, yeah, I didn't really have much interest in a lot of people.
[24:50] So you felt that people didn't have much to offer you?
[24:53] Yes.
[24:54] Okay. Now, why did you go to a lower-class school if you were a middle or upper-middle-class family? I mean, normally it's the neighborhood, right? Like if you are in an upper-middle-class neighborhood, you go to kids with upper-middle-class students.
[25:13] Well i have um i have uh some learning this uh well basically i have dyslexia i'm not very good at writing i'm uh and i have uh adhd so i'm not very good at concentrating so those were kind of like a mix to get me into a lower end uh school because uh where you get judged by the grades you get sorry i don't understand.
[25:38] If you're very smart but you have these issues wouldn't you just go to an upper middle class school but get more help with those issues i'm not sure why you would be put into a lower class school.
[25:49] Yeah my parents thought this school was better for me because it was smaller like the the upper classes were a lot bigger and they thought i would not fare well in those still.
[26:00] Don't understand so did your parents put i mean can we just cut to the chase here did your parents put you in a lower class school so you'd get better grades and look better?
[26:10] I don't think so. No, I don't think that was the reason. I just thought they thought I wasn't going to get any help if I went to the other school. I could go to the other school.
[26:20] Sorry, but how would they know that?
[26:24] They just, because the school advertised about it, I think.
[26:28] Sorry, the school what?
[26:29] Where I went to, that school advertised, oh, hey, we're smaller, so we can give more intimate care to your child.
[26:36] And did that happen?
[26:39] Well yeah in a way they had helped a little bit but I don't think it helped much.
[26:46] Okay so I'm a little confused if your parents have a theory that if you go to the smaller school you'll get more help with your ADHD and your dyslexia but you don't really get much help then that theory is not true right it's false.
[27:02] Yeah and it took a lot of time for them to admit that but yeah Yeah, because my mom is very prideful and my dad just, I think, kind of just ignored the problem.
[27:17] So they put you in a school that was unsuitable for you. Based on the theory, it would help you with your dyslexia and ADHD, but it didn't really do that. And it took them how long to admit that and change the situation?
[27:29] Oh, they only changed, they never changed anything while I was at school. It's only, that conversation happened a couple months ago. So they never just admitted anything.
[27:40] Okay, so was it the case that you went to that school, the lower class school, like started to get five or six? Is that right?
[27:49] Excuse me what age did.
[27:50] You start going to that school.
[27:52] To that school i was about 12.
[27:56] 12 i'm so sorry and where did you go before.
[27:58] I went to just a local uh kinder so like yeah sort of child we have like a child school and a teenage school basically here you have high school and uh i don't know that yeah the other school yeah like a junior high school or something okay Okay.
[28:16] Like a primary school. Primary, yeah. And did you get along better with the kids at the primary school?
[28:22] Yeah, I did. I actually am still friends with one of them.
[28:25] Okay, so your parents took you out of the school where you had friends and put you into the school where not only did you not have friends, but you didn't have much in common with the kids, and they kept you there for the next half decade from 12 to 17. Is that right?
[28:41] Yeah, basically. But it was not really a choice. You had to move schools anyway. Like the primary school was done. You had to go to the high school.
[28:51] Yes, I'm aware that as you age, you have to go to a different school. I don't know why you'd need to tell me that, but it doesn't mean you have to go to that school, right?
[29:02] Yeah, well, I think with their decision-making was kind of, you know, yeah. Their decision-making to which school I was going to go to, it was a bit of like a lesser of two evils, I think. So at this point, it's probably better.
[29:22] And did they consult you and say, which school do you want to go to?
[29:28] I did not. I truly did not care. That was the thing. you don't care what do you mean hang.
[29:33] On hang on hang on.
[29:34] You've got you've.
[29:36] Hang on so you've got friends that are going to a different school and you don't care to follow them and go to that school you don't care which school you go to.
[29:45] Well my friends went to uh to a school that was uh for me a bit uh a lot farther away so i would most of the time i would, there are a lot of schools in my area so they i would go to a different one most likely.
[30:02] Oh, so you would have gone to a different school no matter what?
[30:04] Yeah.
[30:05] Unless you wanted to have more time on the bus or something, right?
[30:08] Yes.
[30:09] Okay. But you could have gone to a school that was more... that the kids were more like you. Like middle class or whatever, right?
[30:22] Yeah, yeah. I could.
[30:23] But you didn't care about that?
[30:26] No, I cared very little about most Most things, all I cared about was just be home. I just wanted to be home all the time. I didn't really want to have much else to do.
[30:42] Now, were you in...
[30:44] Oh, yes, safe.
[30:45] Go ahead.
[30:45] Be safe at home, basically.
[30:47] Be safe at home. Now, you mean, so was there bullying? Yeah.
[30:53] The first year actually everybody left me alone it was kind of like strange to me because you know in most of the movies you would expect some bullying uh but no most people just left me alone they don't care for me uh and at the third year there was a some bullying that was when i had some more friends and i actually stood up a little bit to the guy but he luckily he left very quickly into that year he got sent to a different school because well he was a bad kid okay.
[31:24] And did you talk to your parents about your unhappiness at school.
[31:29] Yeah a couple times they made me just I think they made me just ignore it, they yeah they they never really asked very much about it I would never really say much about it because I didn't want to talk about it.
[31:47] Do you think they noticed that you were unhappy for years?
[31:52] Yeah, you would think so, but no, they didn't notice.
[31:55] Sorry, how do you know they didn't notice?
[31:58] Well, because the conversation we had a couple of months ago, they basically said, oh, well, you actually had a pretty good time there. And I was like, no, I know I did not have any good time there at all.
[32:11] Sorry, I'm a little, sorry to be confused. So you're saying your parents didn't notice. Because they claimed you were happy.
[32:22] Not happy, just like not sad.
[32:25] Okay, so you're saying that your parents didn't notice you were unhappy because recently they said you seemed okay or you were having a good time.
[32:40] Yeah, and they never brought it up anyway.
[32:42] But why would you believe them?
[32:46] Because they defended it very very strongly they did not they basically said now we made the best decision we at the time we could have made and so because.
[32:57] Sorry because they defended their position very strongly they can't possibly be lying.
[33:04] Well they and they're very good liars and I already know them as very good liars so no I think they actually fully believed it Well.
[33:15] Okay. Did they make, in your view, did they make the very best decisions they could possibly have made?
[33:24] No, they could have definitely done some more.
[33:27] Okay, so when they're saying they made the best decisions they possibly could have made, that's not a true statement. Because if they don't even know that you're unhappy, how could they make better decisions? And if they don't ask you whether you're happy and check in with you about how you're doing in school, how could they possibly make the best decisions?
[33:52] Yeah. Maybe I'm a bit, I'm just a loss as you are here, I think.
[34:02] Well, but that's a false statement, right? It's a false statement to say we made the best decisions if they didn't even know how unhappy you were.
[34:14] Yes, that's false.
[34:16] So, why would they tell you that they made the very best decisions while also saying, we didn't even know that you were unhappy?
[34:32] They said, like, we did the best at our time, and basically, we did our best.
[34:37] Well, no, no, they can't possibly have done their best. Because if you're making decisions on the part of a child, it is pretty important to know if the decisions are making your child happier or unhappier. Now, if you don't even ask your child if he's unhappy, you can't possibly make the very best decisions. You can't even make decent decisions. Your decisions will all be terrible.
[35:08] Yes well yeah terrible was maybe very strongly put it uh but yeah.
[35:15] Well let me let me ask you this your parenting or the the decisions your parents have made have resulted in you being crippled when it comes to dating or you've had a pretty strong influence in that right i.
[35:31] Think that's So.
[35:32] This is about as terrible as it can be, because dating and love and marriage and children and romance and pair bonding, I mean, that's one of the two main ingredients in life's happiness. I mean, work and love, that's all we have for happiness, right?
[35:50] Yeah, they give me work, at least. But yeah, the love part is very much... They also don't really get why I don't do that. Because, well, basically, the checklist I talked about at the very beginning, they always say, oh, why don't you have a girlfriend? And I never have an answer to than that. Yeah. Oh, it's just a faith question.
[36:20] Okay. Let me ask you this. Do you know when other people are unhappy versus happy?
[36:29] If I know them very well, then yeah, I can.
[36:31] Okay. So what you're saying is that in a movie, you watch a movie, you don't know the actor or the character, you have no idea if the character is happy or unhappy.
[36:41] Oh, no, that's very, yeah. No, no. That's very strongly portrayed, of course.
[36:45] It's very obvious, right? Yes. I mean, they're called comedies and tragedies for a reason, right?
[36:53] Correct.
[36:53] So for you, it's very easy to identify when someone is happy or unhappy.
[37:02] Yes.
[37:03] Okay. I mean, you had to identify that you were unhappy about something just to send me a message, right?
[37:09] Yeah.
[37:10] Okay. So do you think that your parents have no ability to tell if people are happy or unhappy? happy like they do they watch a movie and and someone is crying and and tearing their hair out and saying oh that person seems very happy or they they watch some justin timberlake dance video and they say those people are very depressed like they have no idea and no capacity to identify human emotions, Well.
[37:41] Yeah, I think that at the time when I was that young...
[37:46] No, no, no, I'm just asking this question right now. I mean, some people just have real mental or cognitive deficiencies in identifying emotions. They genuinely can't. They don't know that somebody who's crying is unhappy. It's like, I don't know, it's like half-autism or... Like, there are some people who have genuine brain deficiencies in recognizing human emotions. Do your parents have no ability in particular? Like, you watch a movie with them, and they're laughing at the tragedies, and they're crying at the comedy.
[38:18] No, no, they're not like that.
[38:21] Okay, so they have a good capacity to determine human emotion, right?
[38:27] Yes.
[38:28] Okay, so that means that they knew you were unhappy. Right.
[38:34] Uh, yeah, I think they had to know.
[38:38] Well, they had to know, right? I mean, did you get up and saying, oh, I'm so excited to go to school today. I can't wait. I'm going to meet my friends. I'm going to try out for the play. This is a girl I like. I mean, did you ever express to them joy or enthusiasm? I mean, maybe you're just a really good actor, right? And maybe you just have a signal.
[38:58] I never did anything remotely close. said I always went as late as I could possibly get before getting punished for being late to school. And I biked home as quickly as I could possibly can.
[39:11] Okay. And you never expressed any enthusiasm for school? Like you weren't trying to make them feel better by pretending to be happy?
[39:19] No. No, I didn't. Okay.
[39:21] So it's completely clear that you were unhappy.
[39:26] Yeah, I would think so, yeah.
[39:28] Okay. So, this is when I said they're lying. They're lying because they said you had a good time, or you had an okay time there, right?
[39:40] Yeah, maybe it's a lie they told themselves.
[39:42] Well, I don't care whether it's a lie they told themselves. That's mind reading. But it's a lie, right?
[39:48] Yeah, it's a lie.
[39:49] Because they didn't ask you, and you showed every evidence and every indication of sheer bloody misery.
[39:58] Yes. Yeah.
[40:01] So why did they not ask you why you were unhappy, why you didn't want to go to school, why you came home right away, why you didn't have friends? Why didn't they ask you?
[40:16] Usually when they ask me, I would say, well, be very evasive, I think.
[40:20] Okay, but you were evasive because why? Why?
[40:25] Well, because I didn't want to cause them very much trouble. I didn't want them to cause the school much trouble. I didn't want to be like a standout there.
[40:41] Okay, so you didn't want to cause your parents upset, which was the complete inverse of what parenting is supposed to be about.
[40:53] Yeah.
[40:53] Parenting is supposed to be about helping you with difficulties. Right? So let's say you have a big pain in your stomach and you happen to have your annual checkup or something, right? You've got a huge pain in your stomach. It's lasted for two weeks. And you go to the doctor and the doctor says, how are you doing? And you say, oh, I'm fine. Do you have any pain? No. And see if you say, well, you have this big pain in your side, your stomach. Why didn't you tell the doctor? Well, I didn't want to bother him. Would that make any sense?
[41:26] No, that would be ridiculous.
[41:28] Right. Right. Because the job of the doctor is to help you with that kind of stuff, right?
[41:36] Yes.
[41:38] And the job of your parents is to know how you're doing and help you to navigate life's inevitable difficulties, right?
[41:46] Yes. Yes. I think that they, I would say no. I was going to say, I think they could not really relate, but my mom was also very much like an outcast for the first part of her life.
[42:01] What the fuck would it matter if they could relate or not? Right. I mean, does the doctor need to have the same pain in his side in order to help you with the pain in your side?
[42:12] No.
[42:13] Does the dentist need to be having their wisdom teeth out at the same time as they're taking your wisdom teeth out? What does relating have to do with anything? You know your child is unhappy. You say, hey, what's going on? You seem unhappy. Let's talk about it. That's parenting, right?
[42:33] Yeah.
[42:34] So why don't they do that? And even now, you said a couple of months ago, you brought up that you'd been, oh, you weren't, you were fine. We did the best, we made the best decisions. You're wrong. Well, that's why you didn't ask them as kids, as a kid, right? Because they don't help. They just tell you that you're wrong and go on about their day. They tell you that you're wrong about a half decade of misery you experienced because of the decisions they made.
[43:06] Yeah. Yeah.
[43:09] Why?
[43:18] I don't know.
[43:19] Yes, you do. Yes, you do. Of course you do. I mean, you know your parents for almost a quarter century, right? Let's just say 20 years. If you can't remember the first couple of years, maybe. So 20 years you've known your parents. You know everything about them. Why did they not ask you why you were unhappy when it was very clear that you were miserable for years and years and years?
[43:44] Maybe they didn't want to put him to work. Maybe they didn't feel like they can do much about it.
[43:59] Okay let's let's take these excuses one at a time okay so they didn't want to put in the work right yeah okay do you know the best way to not put in the work.
[44:12] Uh don't do the work.
[44:13] Don't have children, yeah right i don't want to get up in the morning at five o'clock and go for a walk for an hour i I don't want to do that. I'm not a morning person. It's not my thing. Yes. So I don't have a dog. Pretty easy to not do that. Just don't have a dog, right?
[44:34] Yeah.
[44:35] Now, but if I have a dog, I have to walk the dog. Is that fair to say? Okay.
[44:42] Yeah, correct.
[44:43] So if they're too lazy to do the work, that's pretty easy. Don't have kids. If they don't want to do the work, don't have kids. But they chose to have kids. So if I get a dog, let's say it's a dog that really needs to be walked every day. It goes crazy if it doesn't, right? I get the dog, I keep the dog home. The dog is going nuts because it isn't getting walked. And I just won't walk the dog.
[45:09] If i enough we have a dog now and that's sort of like what's happening with.
[45:13] They walk the dog it.
[45:15] It doesn't get walked enough to say.
[45:17] Right i mean dogs really need to move right as to boys which is why they sometimes i think get adhd in my humble opinion okay so, if somebody says to you sorry somebody says to me hey your dog's going insane because it's not getting walked how often do you walk the dog oh i never walk the dog, and it's in a small apartment and it's an 80 pound dog yeah right and the dog is like biting things and then morose and depressed and anxious and trembling and right and and jumping all over the furniture and just going nuts right aggressive Impressive. And I say, no, the dog's perfectly happy, perfectly content.
[46:07] Yeah. Yeah, that would be a blatant lie. And everybody could see it.
[46:12] Right. So that's your parents.
[46:15] Yeah.
[46:17] So it's not that they don't want to do the work. If they don't want to do the work, they just don't have kids. Right? I don't have... I love dogs. I absolutely love dogs. I think they're wonderful. i just can't do that morning thing and it's cruel to the dark otherwise so i don't have a dog, plus i used to travel a lot and right so anyway okay so it's not that they don't want to do the work and what was the other thing sorry i should have jotted it down my apologies.
[46:48] They uh they didn't want to do the job uh yeah they uh, I'm.
[46:57] Sure it will come back so when you have a kid, you have to talk to that kid you have to find out what's going on with his emotions you have to help the kid with life challenges you have to do these things it's not optional so, why didn't they Do it.
[47:26] Maybe they didn't want to do it.
[47:28] Well, that's tautology, though, right? When I say, why didn't someone do it? Well, they didn't want to. That doesn't add any new information. Because that's by definition, whatever they don't do, they don't want to do. But why? Why don't they want to do it? Why don't they want to ask you how? Oh, maybe you said maybe they felt they couldn't do much about it. but they already put you in a school that was full of kids who you didn't have much in common with because they already made a decision about the adhd and the dyslexia that you'd get more help which turned out to not really be very true so they already did something about it so they could just change schools they could i don't know is it legal to homeschool in your country i.
[48:14] Don't think so and they would absolutely never want that that's one thing my mom never wanted to i mean she didn't want a kid for the longest time uh until basically my dad at some point she just yeah she agreed with it and then she had my brother and then they had me okay uh so she never wanted to have the homeschool was like totally out of the picture that they would never want to do that.
[48:37] Sorry they being your mother or both your mother my mom.
[48:40] My mom never wanted to do that and my dad had to uh uh yeah my dad also didn't want to and he was making the money at the time.
[48:48] Okay so if they felt they couldn't do much about it then they wouldn't have switched schools for you to get you more help because that's doing something about it right so clearly they believe they can do something about it, right?
[49:08] Yeah.
[49:10] Okay, so that's not the answer either. So why would they watch you trudging back and forth the school in absolute misery for half a decade and not ask you how you were doing?
[49:30] Yeah. They were just ignorance or something.
[49:40] No, that's not the answer either. Sorry to be annoying. I really apologize for this. No, that's not the answer because of the information that you gave them a couple of months ago, right? A couple of months ago, you said, Dad, Mom, I was miserable, right?
[49:55] They were delusional?
[49:56] No, no, they got the information. Now, first of all, you can get the information very easily, right, by just asking your child. It's very simple to get the information, right? Are you happy? No, right? That's easy, right? I'm not saying, you know, it's emotionally whatever, right? But as far as facts go, right? I mean, let me give you an example, right? So let's say that your parents bought a lottery ticket and then gave it to you for safekeeping.
[50:31] Yeah.
[50:32] And then it turns out that lottery ticket won a million euros or dollars or whatever, right? What would they do?
[50:41] Well, my...
[50:43] No, would they say to you, where's the lottery ticket?
[50:48] Yeah, they would have anyone. They would, right?
[50:51] They wouldn't just sit there and say, well, we don't want to bother him, we don't want to... So if you have the winning lottery ticket somewhere, and you've been told to keep it safe, and they find out they've just won a million euros, they would come to you and say, where's the lottery ticket, right?
[51:08] Yeah, they would.
[51:09] Okay, so when they have incentive, they can ask you questions.
[51:13] Yeah. Maybe they didn't want to be... parents they didn't want to do the job, Maybe that's just the way for beating myself.
[51:29] Well, I mean, if you say they, you said your father wanted to be a parent, right?
[51:34] Yes.
[51:35] Okay. So then he would ask, even if we take your mom out of the picture that she was somehow bullied into becoming a mother or whatever, right?
[51:43] Yeah. Yeah, I don't know why I didn't do very much more.
[51:55] Sorry, I'm not sure what you're saying.
[51:57] I don't know why my dad didn't do much more.
[52:03] Sorry, much more than what? I thought he didn't.
[52:05] But he did. And if he did ask me, why didn't he follow up on why didn't he?
[52:10] Sorry, did he ask you if you were unhappy at school?
[52:13] Yeah, a couple of times, I think.
[52:15] Okay, so he would say, are you unhappy at school? Or are you happy at school? Or something like that. And then you would be hesitant to answer, right?
[52:24] Say I'm fine. I would straight up just say no, I don't like it.
[52:30] So sometimes you would say no, I don't like school? Sorry, go ahead.
[52:34] My brother also didn't like school. So I guess maybe I thought it was sort of normal. But most kids didn't like school.
[52:43] Oh, so sometimes they didn't ask you because they couldn't relate and then sometimes they couldn't ask you because they could relate. Do you see how this is not really much of an answer either way, right?
[52:53] Yeah.
[52:55] Okay, so your father says, do you like school? You say, no, I'm miserable there, and then what?
[53:04] Then, if... What are you saying? he would basically uh just uh basically give me some basic advice and then uh that was it maybe i maybe i would try it for a little bit.
[53:35] And what sort of advice I know it's hard to remember but.
[53:37] If you can what sort of advice would it's very hard to remember all of this it's sort of I don't really want to remember this because it's not a very nice time I hope you can understand that but, yeah basically just wait how to be a better conversationalist and why I maybe that's not an indication of this call very much but I can actually talk very well with most people, and that I partly attribute that to him, to the ways that I can talk to people.
[54:14] Sorry, so you would say, I'm unhappy, and he would say, you just need to be better at talking to people, and here's how to do that?
[54:23] Indirectly, yeah.
[54:25] Okay, I get that. Okay, so then he would say, here's some advice on how to talk to people, and that's what you should do, right?
[54:34] Yes.
[54:34] Okay. And then you would try that or not try that, and then what?
[54:41] I would uh well i mean he would.
[54:45] Circle back and say how's my advice working.
[54:50] Um yeah and if he would i would probably have i might have lied to him uh or i would have uh, just again switch topics they want to talk about it and he would never really and he would never really hammer things home because well he just just like the relationship with my mom he's kind of used to just uh surrender just like oh okay you don't want to talk about it okay it's fine.
[55:19] So he was.
[55:20] Passive yes very much okay.
[55:23] So he'd give you advice but would never check and see really whether the advice was helping or not.
[55:27] Yeah even if it was followed or not okay.
[55:33] And did you ever talk to your mother about being unhappy at school?
[55:41] Did I?
[55:42] It's not a criticism whether you did or didn't. I'm just curious.
[55:50] Well, I did talk to her about school because she would help me with group projects that I would do on my own because I didn't want to work in a group. But no, she would never really ask about that very much. She would never really ask, why don't you bring any friends over? Yeah, how was school? I didn't want to talk about it.
[56:18] And when you would come home, well, technically it's not that you didn't want to talk about it, it's that you didn't want to be not listened to about it. So you'd come home from school, and were you a latchkey kid? Like, your parents were both working, or what happened when you came home from school?
[56:39] My parents were, they were both working at the time. When my dad got fired from his job, it was actually one of the worst times in my childhood. I remember that very vividly. That's where the yogurt fight came from, that they fought all the time. I thought they were going to go to the force.
[56:59] And sorry, how old were you when your father got fired from his job?
[57:03] I was about 10, I think. Okay.
[57:05] And do you know why your father got fired from his job?
[57:09] The job was sort of, he worked sort of in a loophole in the law, and that loophole got badged, and yeah, then his job was kind of obsolete now.
[57:19] Okay. And what did your parents fight about?
[57:23] Bad uh everything everything you can imagine like even things uh if i if i if i think about it it's just kind of strange how can you even fight about certain things like missing a turn in a when you're driving or something then my mother would like would curse so much it's it's weird how much would just blame herself if she did something wrong like that, and yeah constant and about everything you can imagine they would basically fight about everything uh mainly because my dad didn't do like a chore and around the house okay yeah that was it yeah all right uh maybe my dad my mom would say hey can you do this can you do that then he would say uh yeah whatever yes i wouldn't do it and then they would get in a fight Right.
[58:14] Okay. Got it. And what do you think they were really fighting about?
[58:21] I think my mom was very frustrated that my dad didn't work because she values that extremely highly, that when people work. It was certainly strange because my brother, for the longest time, he didn't have a job when he was studying. She got very angry at him, and it was so noticeable when he got a job when she actually stopped just bothering him about most stuff.
[58:44] Hmm i'm a i'm a tiny bit confused so you would say that your mom is is hardworking and doesn't like lazy people uh.
[58:53] Yeah i would say that.
[58:55] But wasn't she just about the laziest parent on the planet.
[59:01] Uh, yeah, I don't know.
[59:04] Didn't even bother to ask her kids for half a decade how they're doing, whether they're happy or not. Didn't even notice whether they were miserable. When you go to your parents with an issue a couple of months ago, they just wave you off and don't even discuss it and won't listen to you. Like, that's the laziest parenting known to man, isn't it?
[59:26] Yes, yeah.
[59:27] So, sorry, I'm a little confused about the work ethic. I think, I mean, I understand workaholics, but work at your company.
[59:34] Basically.
[59:35] I'm sorry?
[59:35] If it's working for a company, then she is a workaholic. She truly values that extremely highly. She values more the gratitude she gets from her boss or customers. She values that more, the gratitude she gets from them, than the money she gets from the company.
[59:54] Oh, so in order to get your mother to try and do even a halfway decent job, you have to pay her. So the problem with the parenting is that you couldn't pay her.
[1:00:07] Yeah, maybe. Or couldn't compliment her enough about her good parenting, maybe.
[1:00:13] Well i mean yeah i mean so you could not provide her a positive experience of flattery or money so she didn't really care about parenting at all because parenting good parenting would benefit you, whereas her boss pays her so it benefits her to do a good job, Yeah.
[1:00:38] She always wanted to be more independent.
[1:00:42] Sorry, what did you say?
[1:00:43] She always said to me that it's important for, if you're an adult, that you can always stand on your own feet, that you don't have to be reliant on somebody. And that's why she always insisted that she was going to work, even though it costs more money to have the babysitter for two of us and a second car than actually what she was getting from the job at the time.
[1:01:07] Oh, so she lost money working?
[1:01:11] Yeah, when we were very little, yes. I think she did.
[1:01:13] So how on earth does that make her independent?
[1:01:17] Well, if my dad decides to leave her, then she can get the money on her own.
[1:01:26] And do you know why she was willing to sacrifice her relationship with her children? Because she was afraid your dad would leave her. Do you know why she thought that he might leave her?
[1:01:40] Well, because my dad is very social. and every time she would sometimes jokingly say this that he could always very quickly get a new, wife basically because he's so good at talking.
[1:01:56] Ah okay so she didn't feel valuable to your dad she felt replaceable.
[1:02:06] Yeah basically but I think it's totally unjustified that she felt that way why do you think it's unjustified because there was never any indication that he would do such a thing, he seems like kind of I mean what you just said like about that he didn't really have much thought through with me that he didn't want to put in the work as a father and it would be, also difficult to put in the work as a cheating husband, so I don't think he wanted to Well.
[1:02:39] No, so he was too lazy to divorce, is that right?
[1:02:42] Yeah, maybe, yeah.
[1:02:44] Okay. But your mother feels that she doesn't provide much value to your husband, and you don't feel like you can provide much value to friends or a woman, right?
[1:02:55] Yeah, basically, unless I give them something more. So if I do more stuff for them, if I pay...
[1:03:01] But that's straight off your mother's behavior, that you'll get my loyalty if you can pay me or flat me, right?
[1:03:08] Yeah. Yeah.
[1:03:09] Okay. So do you know what it's like to have someone treasure you for who you are? Just for who you are.
[1:03:22] You mean a relationship where just just an equal amount give and take.
[1:03:26] No no forget that just somebody who enjoys your company for who you are you don't have to flatter them you don't have to pay them you don't have to have abs you think somebody who just enjoys the operations of your mind and is thrilled to be around you because of who you are my.
[1:03:45] Brother uh and uh yeah two of my friends, I would say.
[1:03:52] Okay. So let's talk about your brother. How did your brother handle it when you got interested in girls but weren't talking to them when you were 13 and he was 17 or so? I mean, did he transfer his skills? Did he help you talk to girls? Did he practice with you? Did he know you were unhappy? Did he advocate your cause of unhappiness to your parents? Like, if he cares about you enormously, then there would have been real signs and indications of that when you were a kid right.
[1:04:17] Yeah well i think well he he also he said he still is also not very successful with girls and at the time he also had no experience, so he also had like said i have the same uh thing even though he was a bit more popular than me but he also just like me hated school he went actually to the school i was so i was probably were you going to go to if I didn't went to this school? And he had basically the same issues. Not everything. He had more friends. He was a bit more popular. He didn't really hate it as much as I, as me, I think, at least. Okay.
[1:04:58] So did he, when you were 13 and he was 17 and unsuccessful with girls, did he say, whatever you do, you got to work on this being unsuccessful with girls things because it's really tough for me?
[1:05:11] No, he didn't.
[1:05:14] Okay. If you were more unhappy at school than he was, did he know how unhappy at school you were?
[1:05:23] I mean, he probably knew that I was very unhappy, but then again...
[1:05:27] What do you mean he probably knew? What are you talking about? Your brother. You talked to him, right? He knows that you're unhappy. Unless your brother can't figure out who's happy or unhappy in a movie.
[1:05:37] Yeah, he knows.
[1:05:39] Okay, so he knew you were miserable. And he knew this for year after year. And so what did he do about it?
[1:05:49] Well, he didn't do it. He had most of his own problems to care about. So I didn't think he had much time to help me, especially if he doesn't have very much success and how are you going to help somebody else get successful?
[1:06:03] No, that's not what I was talking about. I was talking about he knew how unhappy you were at school and you were more unhappy than he was, right?
[1:06:12] Yeah, I think so.
[1:06:12] So did he talk to you about your unhappiness?
[1:06:17] At the time, no. I don't think so.
[1:06:19] Okay. And did he ever... Sorry, go ahead.
[1:06:23] I rather talked about anything else in school.
[1:06:26] I'm sorry. I didn't quite catch what you were saying.
[1:06:28] I rather talked about anything else than talking about school.
[1:06:33] But that's because nobody was listening. It wasn't some choice of yours, like you just decided to hide your unhappiness. it's because nobody cared. So rather than have one burden called I'm unhappy, you would then have two burdens, which is I'm happy and the people who claim to love me don't give a rat's ass. It wasn't some decision you made to not talk, well, I just hid things. No. It's because nobody was asking, nobody was insistent, nobody was figuring out what was going on. Nobody was noticing. So it was not your choice. to not talk about things. It was because nobody cared. So what's the point?
[1:07:22] Yeah, nobody cared.
[1:07:26] See, this is what I want you to zoom out and think of five years, half a decade, a third of your young life was spent in misery and nobody asked much or did anything really about it. And that's your template for relationships. People just live together and don't care.
[1:07:51] Yeah.
[1:07:52] That's what you think of, and it makes perfect sense to me, but that's what you think of as a relationship.
[1:08:01] Yeah, fair, yeah.
[1:08:02] Right?
[1:08:03] Yes.
[1:08:04] So why would you want to get involved with a girl? So you could just live together and not care?
[1:08:13] Yeah.
[1:08:14] Why would you want what your parents have? See, everybody faces an existential crisis if they don't want what their parents have. Because we evolved in small tribes where you couldn't choose anything different from what your parents had.
[1:08:31] Yeah.
[1:08:32] But now you can. We have relative freedom, relative independence. We can choose different values than the ones we grew up with, right?
[1:08:41] Yes, correct. Correct.
[1:08:45] So, if you ended up in a marriage like your parents, would you be happy or unhappy?
[1:08:51] I would probably divorce.
[1:08:53] You'd be miserable, right?
[1:08:54] Yeah. Okay.
[1:08:56] So, you don't...
[1:08:57] I could not be in such a thing.
[1:08:58] Sorry, go ahead.
[1:08:59] I could not be in such a relationship, I think. I would...
[1:09:03] Right. But what else is there? Have you de... This is why I ask these questions. Have you denormalized... what your parents were doing and realize how screwed up it is so you can make a different choice.
[1:09:21] Well, now, talking to you this way, I think I have.
[1:09:24] And that's why I'm trying to shake you out of these excuses and all of this nonsense. Because to make a different choice, you have to recognize that what your parents did is not foundational to human relationships. It's not the norm. It's very specific, very weird, very harmful and toxic choices that they are responsible for. because you see we can never have more free will than we assign to our parents, so if you say well my parents didn't have a choice and this is the way they was raised and my mother was an outcast and they couldn't do this then all you're doing is saying i have no control over my future and if you have no control over your future and you don't want what your parents have but they had no control over their future you're just going to end up like your parents i mean if you're on that train track that leads off a cliff the best thing you can do is not start the train, right?
[1:10:20] Yeah, right.
[1:10:22] So you won't start because you know the destination. You don't want the destination, you don't know how to jump the tracks.
[1:10:31] Oh yeah. I, well you might figure it out. I don't know, you might figure out a solution here.
[1:10:41] Well let's get to the emotions of what I'm saying first because this is your first flash of emotion that isn't mostly sardonic. So So what is, does it make sense what I'm saying?
[1:10:52] It does, it does.
[1:10:53] Okay. So then you get interested in this girl with the...
[1:11:00] Red hair.
[1:11:01] Red hair and the vaping and all that, right? And you get interested in this girl and then you're like, oh, I can't ask her out because I'm going to end up in a messed up relationship, right?
[1:11:15] Yes.
[1:11:15] And so... I don't think you know how specific in particular your parents' choices are and how much they were choices. Now, you can say, well, but they didn't actively choose. It's like everything in life is a choice. This is what I really try to get across to people as a whole. Everything in life is a choice. Everything, everything, everything in life is a choice. So, if you say, well, I'm just going to avoid asking my kid how unhappy he is, that's a choice yes right i'm gonna avoid getting on the way scale because i don't want to know how much weight i've gained okay that's a choice i'm not going to go to therapy to deal with childhood issues that's a choice everything in life is a choice the choice not to choose is a choice right you can't you can't escape it now unless your parents have specific brain injuries or the kind or autism where they can't recognize human emotions or whatever, that's why I was asking you about that stuff, then they have choices, right?
[1:12:27] Yes.
[1:12:27] And you have choices. But you can't have more choices than you're willing to give to them.
[1:12:36] Yeah. So I have to give them full ownership on what they did.
[1:12:40] Full responsibility. Now, when you give your parents full responsibility, as I was doing in this sort of Socratic question about the motives of your parents, If you give your parents full responsibility, what happens? What do they do in response?
[1:13:02] Well, what they would do? They would be confronted by the bad decisions they made. And that's maybe a burden too hard to handle for them.
[1:13:17] Right.
[1:13:17] Okay.
[1:13:21] So, let's take this for a little test drive, if that's all right. So, do you want to play your mom or your dad? Or both?
[1:13:35] Play my mom. Okay.
[1:13:37] Mom, I've got to talk to you about something. I hope this isn't going to be too uncomfortable, but I know that you want me to tell the truth and you don't want me to lie. I've really been thinking about my teenage years and like I was like miserable for like gosh like half a decade and hated going to school I always wanted to come home I didn't have any friends I've never asked a girl out, and I'm upset about it I'm mad about it I mean I think you guys should have noticed that I was unhappy and talked to me about it and I think the fact that you didn't do that has really caused a lot of problems for me, Well.
[1:14:16] We did the best we could at the time with the information we had. We did our best, and you didn't end up that bad, as I see it. You have a good job. You're getting out of the house very soon. Things are good looking. You have pretty good things going for you. So I think we did a pretty good job, what we did.
[1:14:45] So you don't think that there's any validity to any of my experiences or thoughts? I'm just wrong.
[1:14:54] Basically, yeah. Okay.
[1:14:56] So you said you did the best you could with the information you had, right?
[1:15:02] Yeah.
[1:15:02] So why wouldn't you ask me how unhappy I was? Or whether I was happy, or what my experience at school was, good or bad, or, like, wouldn't that be information that you should have?
[1:15:21] Well, yeah, maybe I should have asked you a little bit more, but if you want, I'll pay for your therapy, if this is such a big issue for you.
[1:15:35] That's kind of insulting, right? I mean, the fact that your child was unhappy for half a decade, shouldn't that also be a big issue for you?
[1:15:46] No, but you're in charge.
[1:15:47] Right? You're in charge of the household, so why are you saying it's just a big issue for me?
[1:15:51] Shouldn't it also be a big issue for you that I was unhappy for half a decade and you never really asked me about it?
[1:16:06] No so it's not a.
[1:16:08] Big issue for you that i was unhappy for half a decade and you never really asked me about it.
[1:16:11] Well maybe he put it like that but no i i did not think at that time so.
[1:16:21] Sorry you did not what at the time.
[1:16:23] I did not think i i didn't know it at the time and i I could not have known it because you didn't come to me.
[1:16:29] Okay, so you as my mother...
[1:16:31] Sorry to interrupt.
[1:16:32] Let me just... I don't want to... Let's not do the Gish Gallop thing. So you as my mother, you're saying that for half a decade I was miserable, never wanted to go to school, always came home immediately, never showed any enthusiasm for school. And you're saying that as my mother, from the ages of 12 to 17, you had no way to know that I was unhappy.
[1:17:02] No, I just thought you were like that.
[1:17:05] I'm sorry?
[1:17:07] No, I just thought you were a bit, you were just different from the others.
[1:17:13] So you didn't know that I was unhappy?
[1:17:18] No, I didn't know.
[1:17:19] Okay. So as my mother, and as someone I've seen you watch movies, and you know, you cry at the sad parts and you laugh at the funny parts, so you are perfectly capable of identifying human emotions in actors and other people, but what you're saying is that if you see someone at the park bawling his eyes out, you have no way of knowing they're unhappy unless they come up to you, tug on your dress, and say, I'm super unhappy.
[1:17:52] Well, that should be co-informed, but I never saw you cry like that.
[1:17:57] No, I'm asking on principle. If somebody's bawling, do you need them to say, I'm unhappy?
[1:18:06] No.
[1:18:07] Okay. So when you say that I didn't tell you that I was unhappy, that is not an answer. Because you're asking for a 12-year-old kid who's still, I'm not even halfway to full brain development. So you're asking a 12-year-old kid to understand his own emotions, to be able to verbalize them in a way that gets through to you, and to process them in that kind of way. Now, you understand that's really asking the impossible of a little kid, right? It's really the parent's job to see that the child is unhappy and to try and figure out what's going on.
[1:18:52] Yeah. She would probably, if you're still role-playing, my mom would probably just, she would evade the question, and she would most likely walk away.
[1:19:04] Okay, and then I would say, Mom, this is a really important conversation to me. I would appreciate it if you would finish it.
[1:19:12] Well, then she would just ignore you, and she would still go away.
[1:19:17] Okay. And then I would say, mom, if you choose to walk away, you are doing irreparable harm to our relationship. Because I do have to have the right to talk about things that are upsetting to me. And of course you have the right, I'm not going to chain you to the chair, right? You can walk away. But I'm telling you that if you do walk away from a conversation that's really important to me, then you are doing irreparable harm to our relationship. I don't know how to repair it.
[1:19:47] Well, then we don't know how to repair it. We don't have to be here together.
[1:19:54] Okay, so you would rather do sort of permanent damage to our relationship than have a conversation that you're uncomfortable with?
[1:20:05] Yeah, and she did the best to.
[1:20:10] Okay, so clearly I don't mean that much to you. because this level of discomfort is how could you say.
[1:20:17] I'm doing all these things for you.
[1:20:19] Okay good good then you've wanted to all these things for me then stay and finish this conversation i appreciate that thank you i shouldn't need to ask right i mean you you criticized me a lot as a kid right i mean you you literally screamed at me on a regular basis uh telling me that i was doomed to disaster unless i did xyz or abc or whatever it is right so you had a lot of criticisms of me as a kid, and I have one criticism of you that I'm talking about here.
[1:20:48] And so, if you say, well, you do all of these things for me, that's great. So, I listen to years and years and years of criticisms from you. I have a criticism of you, so you can handle it. You're a big girl, right? If you can dish it out, you can take it, right? And if you can criticize me for years and scream at me for years about things I'm doing wrong and scream at dad for not doing the chores and you've got all these standards and people don't meet them and you've got to rail at them and rage at them, I'm having a reasonable conversation with you about a deficiency that I experience. You have had, I've seen you, I mean, not just in my brother, dad, me, you've railed and raged at us for years about things we're doing that are deficient to your standards.
[1:21:29] So, right, you wouldn't want to be one of these people who can bully children and then runs away in a panic the moment they're criticized back. Like, you don't want to be one of those people who can dish it out but can't take I mean, that would be really sad, right? That would make all of your parenting a complete lie. It would make it just bullying, right? So you have these standards that other people in the family fail to meet, and you scream at them. Now, I'm being a lot nicer than that. I'm not screaming at you. But you're not meeting a standard that I have. And I think it's a reasonable standard that if your child is unhappy, the parents should ask what's going on and try to work to resolve it.
[1:22:05] so and so i'm just saying live up to the standards you've imposed for years on others, and i'm not screaming at you i'm not bullying you i'm not threatening you i'm just saying i really want to talk about this so you know sit sit down and listen.
[1:22:27] Yeah, then she would say, or if she wouldn't walk away, she would just listen, and she would just take it and just make it very obvious that she was the son of this.
[1:22:37] That she was what?
[1:22:38] That she was just, or she would stay, make it obvious that she was ignoring whatever you said.
[1:22:44] Okay, but then I would say, you know, if I say something, she would ignore it and say, well, I need a response from you.
[1:22:52] Then she would just give a response, like i you you ended up pretty well uh you're not very well you uh have a lot of things going for you now.
[1:23:01] Well but okay even even if that's true so and she would say that so i'd say well first of all you're telling me my experience of life which is narcissistic in the extreme, right i mean you're saying that your opinion of my life is totally correct and my actual experience of my life is completely wrong right that's not that that's that's a little crazy right, yeah right i mean if you say i have a toothache and i say no your tooth is fine that wouldn't make much sense right because i'd be saying my opinion is more important than your direct experience right that that wouldn't make much sense so i don't really understand what you mean by that? And secondly, if, you know, when you got mad at me or at dad for not doing some particular chore, right? And we were to turn around and say, hey, you know, so I didn't make the bed or I didn't do the dishes or I didn't vacuum the carpet. Come on, mom, your life is pretty good. You've got your health. You've got a job. You know, your kids are all healthy. You're you're doing fine. Don't be upset. Would you have accepted that and said, yes, there's no reason for me to get upset because you didn't do it. Sure. Because my life is in general fine.
[1:24:20] No, of course you wouldn't.
[1:24:21] Of course you wouldn't, right? So let's stop with this silliness, right? And actually have a conversation, because what you're saying has no reality to it.
[1:24:34] Yeah. Yeah, if you would say that, then she would probably just be speechless. And then after a day or so, So we should pretend that it didn't happen.
[1:24:51] Well, and then you'd come back and say, well, you know, when you had a criticism of me and you would say you're not doing your chores, if I continue to not do my chores, you'd bring it up again, right?
[1:25:03] Yeah.
[1:25:03] Okay. So when I say I want this conversation, we have the conversation, then you completely ignore it. I'm going to bring it up again because you taught me well. And if someone is not meeting a standard, you don't just mention it once and then ignore it for the rest of time. you keep bringing it up until the standard gets met, right?
[1:25:19] Yes, correct. Right.
[1:25:23] So, what's the upshot of all of this? What happens, if you keep bringing this to your mother's attention?
[1:25:34] I think our relationship would slowly but surely end, especially now that I'm moving out of the house.
[1:25:40] Right. So, I mean, and I'm really sorry for all of that. I can't imagine... cratering an entire quarter century relationship because someone had some criticism i i can't conceive of that i can't father fathom that i can't follow that i can't understand that at all but i do know that that's what a lot of people do, which means that to the price of being in a relationship with your mother, is to not exist as an independent person to not have your own thoughts and preferences differences that's the price of being in a pretend relationship with your mother is you can't really exist at all, And that's why you can't attract a woman.
[1:26:31] Because you're still in the womb of delusion, so to speak, right?
[1:26:39] Yeah, I think you're right.
[1:26:41] Tell me what you're feeling.
[1:26:44] Well, I feel very sad, that and yeah yeah it's your path where I can make more of it it doesn't yeah, I that's the way she is.
[1:27:08] And I'm really sorry for that it's a very difficult and painful thing to to deal with but women will sense this about you, And no woman of quality wants to get in combat with a really selfish and destructive mother-in-law, if that makes sense.
[1:27:31] Yeah, you said that's probably why I haven't tried it.
[1:27:35] Well, there's really, what can you do? What can you say? Right?
[1:27:41] Yeah.
[1:27:44] How can you attract a quality woman if this is how things are with your mother?
[1:27:55] Probably can't.
[1:27:56] Well, I think it's tough, right?
[1:28:00] Yeah, it definitely is.
[1:28:04] And and if we have you know selfish uh parents as a whole then this is a battle that we all have to deal with and i'm really sorry that this is the battle, but it is a reality that one of the reasons why you have trouble attracting both friends and lovers is because your definition of relationships is where you don't exist, where you're not allowed to have your own thoughts, where if you have your own thoughts and preferences, you will get attacked and ostracized and your own mother would rather cut off relations with you rather than listen to some reasonable criticism of her actions.
[1:28:57] Yeah, yeah, most likely be it.
[1:29:01] And that's really tragic. And I'm, you know, obviously desperately sorry about all of that.
[1:29:11] And, uh, I think my dad would, if you want to know what he would do, he probably would hear me out. He probably would, uh, partially take it to heart and then just sort of accept that this is the new dynamic. Because he was actually, uh, I could actually convince him that I was having a bad time. He was actually open to it.
[1:29:36] Well, okay, but would he still accept that it was his job to know you were having a bad time in the past?
[1:29:48] Yeah, he probably would.
[1:29:49] And your dad would probably be fine until one particular circumstance or situation where you would say, mom's threatening to cut me off if I continue to talk to the stuff about the stuff with her, I need you to take my side. I need you to tell her that that's absolutely unacceptable and she owes me good contact and conversation. Now, if in a sense you set your father in a collision course with your mother's selfishness, that's where things would probably begin to fall apart. I'm not certain of that, but that would be my guess.
[1:30:25] No, I think that's a very accurate statement.
[1:30:36] But it's only when we can be honest in our relationships that we can actually call them relationships. Otherwise, it's just empty conformity and complying with bottomless selfishness and entitlement. And it's not a real relationship. If you can't be honest, it's not a real relationship.
[1:30:56] No. No, it isn't.
[1:31:01] Yeah, tell me what you're thinking, what you're feeling.
[1:31:06] Damn it. Damn it, man.
[1:31:10] Doesn't it suck to get an answer sometimes?
[1:31:13] Yeah, sometimes. Oh, man. When I emailed you, I did not expect this.
[1:31:27] I mean, I say this as a, you know, I obviously always try not to project my own experiences onto other people, But I tried this with my mother to say, I need to have some preferences in this relationship. We can't just talk about your lawsuits and your health, like it needs to be about other topics and so on. Just from time to time, I'm happy to talk about those things, but not all the time. I had some honesty, you know, I know everyone portrays themselves as like, oh, I was just fine, I didn't do anything wrong. But I mean, really did, I mean, work with that to try and get some decent answers and some preferences in the relationship. And it was just not possible. I just, she would not have it. She would not have it. And I was like, okay, so, I mean, it's really sad. I think it's really sad.
[1:32:16] But my mother, she was my past. And my, you know, my fiance, my girlfriend, my wife, my, you know, the mother of my child, that's my future.
[1:32:26] And it generally is a very bad idea to sacrifice the future for the sake of the past. In other words, to give up on a great girlfriend, fiance, wife, mother of your children for the sake of appeasing a woman or a man that you never chose to have in your life and who who had complete control over you, and exercised some fairly aggressive authority over you. And then when you try to have any say or standard in the relationship as a whole, they just threaten abandonment, which is a brutal thing for parents to do. Of all the people that threaten abandonment, parents are the worst, because you can't survive without your parents. And even though you're an adult now, it is very tough. And of course, the survival, like evolutionarily speaking, the survival of your children would be hampered by a non-involvement of your parents. So it is actually, it's a very, very powerful, powerful threat. And the fact that parents do that is, it's kind of jaw-dropping to me. I just, I find it shocking. I still find it shocking, if that makes sense, because they just have so much power. And where you have the greatest power, you must be the most sensitive and delicate with it. And the fact that it would be like, Like, you know, screw you, kid. You don't get to criticize me, even though I've spent 20 years blowing your head off with screaming. You don't get to criticize me.
[1:33:47] You don't get to have any preferences that interfere with my immediate happiness. I'm like, okay, that's brutal to see and hear. And I'm really sorry if that is the situation. But it sounds a little bit like it, because when you talked to them a couple of months ago, they brushed you off, right? If I understand this correctly.
[1:34:09] Yeah, basically.
[1:34:10] Rather than so. So you say, well, why didn't I tell them as a kid? Well, you told them as an adult. And how did that go?
[1:34:17] Yeah, well, probably about the same as a kid.
[1:34:20] Well, but worse, because as a kid, you didn't have, I can move out.
[1:34:26] Yeah.
[1:34:27] As an adult, you do, so. Yeah, it's a very sad situation. You know, I mean, obviously, I've told my daughter, like, there's nothing that you can say or do that is going to break the bond. There's nothing.
[1:34:40] Yeah.
[1:34:41] And, you know, any, like, the most aggressive criticism of me that you can have, I will, you know, it will never break the bond. And same thing's true with my wife and, you know, other friends and so on. So, but the people who were like, hey, if you do something I don't like, I'm going to threaten the bond. Oof, man, that is, that is brutal.
[1:35:04] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's probably why my oldest friend was from primary school still. I also never really talked to him about anything very serious because I don't want to run the risk of destroying what we have.
[1:35:23] Oh, right.
[1:35:24] Yeah. Yeah, I see that now. I just say that I do see it at some more points in my life. this pattern yeah right.
[1:35:40] Well, I mean, I, you know, as far as solutions go, um, I think denormalizing it in your mind is very important that, you know, no matter what you say to your parents or anything like that, um, I think denormalizing this is really, really important.
[1:35:58] Uh, this is, this is not right. This is not how relationships are supposed to go. This is not how parenting is supposed to be. And then you can choose different. You can choose different. and you know whether you talk to your parents or not any further it is just important i think within your own mind to say uh this is really wrong and this should not have happened this way it should not be the case right now and because you denormalize it then you can choose differently you know like if you didn't know that you had a secret mole you could push to fly you wouldn't fly because it's not an option right yeah i could walk i could take an uber i could drive i could bike or i could push my secret mole and fly well if you don't know you have the secret flying Well, you can't choose to fly. And so more knowledge gives us more choices.
[1:36:45] And the way things are with your parents, and the way things were between your parents in this time when your father lost his job, through no particular fault of his own, but the fact that you did, that your parents did behave in this kind of way, it absolutely in no way shape or form has to be that way for you at all even a tiny tiny bit and when you can choose differently then you can pursue a woman without the albatross of.
[1:37:21] I can't disagree with women, I can't have any opinion with women, I am a servant to women's narcissism, I can't ever upset them, because then you can't be any kind of leader in the relationship, you can't be any kind of authority in the relationship, and you're only going to attract women who are highly dysfunctional and bullying, maybe like your mom a little. But you can choose differently once you've identified the dysfunction. Sorry, go ahead.
[1:37:46] Or women that are highly passive, maybe. Like my dad, maybe.
[1:37:52] Yes, except that then, no, because women who are highly passive, you would then have two people not acting in the relationship, which means it probably wouldn't be a relationship, right?
[1:38:02] Right.
[1:38:06] So does that make sense as a whole again i obviously can't tell you what to do and i mean some talk therapy i think would probably be a good idea but just really want to get across what i really want to get across is i'm really sorry that you weren't listened to as a kid no kid should be languishing in misery for half a decade and nobody lifts a finger to help that's that's just appalling beyond words and i'm really really sorry for that it shouldn't have happened that way it should never happen that way unfortunately it does quite a lot but you can view that as an apparition and choose differently but it does require some that you criticize the choices your parents made.
[1:38:44] Right yeah Yeah. I think you're right. I also, last time, I'm in the process of moving out. So my mother screamed at me because, well, there was a chore that needed to be done. And I didn't do it i didn't do it immediately and she immediately uh went like i'm gonna then then you don't just don't get this food right now and wow i was so willing because well i i have like the apartment right now i was just so if it was done i would i would have just i felt it immediately like i've just gone up and left right yeah it's just it is like yeah not healthy in a way, the way of communicating to uh especially to childhood or to your own child that way yeah.
[1:39:51] It's terrible and you know the fact that your father didn't work harder to transfer his um his uh social skills to you also i think is is pretty pretty reprehensible um but uh, yeah it may just be time to to just denormalize this and and learn how to because you've got good friends so you can learn how to be more honest in your relationships not that i'm saying you're a liar or dishonest but you can work to become more honest in your relationships um.
[1:40:22] Practicing this kind of honesty with your friends and i'm sure they'll be relatively okay with it and and so on but and and listen what you're going through is is very common i mean it's it's tragically and sadly common you know i mean you you can probably read online all these people, who are saying uh oh you know i uh my my friend brought up the trump assassination and said gee i wish they hadn't missed right and and it's like okay so you want people shot you disagree agree with politically, right? That's pretty rough. And so a lot of people are going through this kind of stuff. People went through this with COVID, like, oh, you want my rights taken away because I don't want to take this experimental whatever it is. And so there's a lot of people who are finding out just how kind of unimportant they are relative to other people in the context of ideology. And, you know, narcissism, if that's an accurate way to put it, is one of the ultimate but ideologies. So you're certainly not alone in this. And I really do sympathize.
[1:41:21] All right. Yeah.
[1:41:23] Will you keep me posted about how things are going?
[1:41:26] I definitely will. All right.
[1:41:28] Thanks, man. I really appreciate the call and I hope you'll stay in touch.
[1:41:32] Thanks for all the time. And thanks for everything you've done. Like you, you also, even before this call, maybe you didn't realize that this was not normal and it's not how things should have, should be.
[1:41:44] Oh, Oh, you're absolutely welcome. I'm glad to help any way that I can. All right, brother. Take care. Keep in touch.
[1:41:50] All right. Thank you. Bye.
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