0:00 - Introduction
0:08 - Reactions to Childhood Abuse
3:34 - Enabling Behavior
7:12 - Gravity of Past Trauma
8:40 - Analogy of the Lifeguard
12:19 - Lifeguards of Estrogen Lakes
16:56 - Mirror Behavior of Abusive Father
19:12 - Virtue as Extreme Sport
20:01 - Envy of Abuser's Power
20:49 - Question of Helping the Suffering
Join us in today's deep dive into the complex dynamics of abuse and its impact on individuals' behaviors and relationships. Through thought-provoking insights, we explore how past trauma can shape one's response to abuse, whether by replicating abusive patterns or becoming enablers in managing abusive personalities.
Delving into the concept of the devouring mother, we uncover how individuals raised by such figures may struggle in establishing healthy connections, leading to a cycle of over-pleasing and seeking validation. The discussion expands to highlight the repercussions of these early dynamics on future relationships, emphasizing the role of past experiences in shaping present behaviors.
We navigate through the intricate interplay between abused individuals, enablers, and abusers, shedding light on the underlying motivations and patterns that drive certain responses to abuse. Through vivid analogies depicting the dating pool as a metaphor for societal interactions, we examine the complexities of attracting and engaging with different personality types.
Reflecting on the repercussions of enabling behaviors, we ponder the significance of personal growth and self-awareness in breaking free from destructive cycles. The conversation extends to explore the blurred lines between helping and enabling, emphasizing the importance of fostering mutual, healthy relationships built on respect and reciprocity.
By challenging traditional narratives surrounding abuse and enabling behaviors, we invite listeners to explore the nuances of victimhood, power dynamics, and personal agency in navigating complex interpersonal dynamics. Join us on this enlightening journey as we unravel the intricate web of abuse, trauma, and resilience in shaping individuals' paths to healing and self-discovery.
[0:00] All right. Good morning, everybody. It's Stefan Melanie from Free Domain. Questions from freedomain.locals.com. Thank you, of course, for your great queries.
[0:09] And we're starting with, hi, Stef. I noticed that some people react to the abuse of their parents by absorbing the same behaviors, while others by, quote, reacting to it, slash becoming dependent to manage the same kinds of people. What do you think is the main driver to the different reactions? Thanks for your great work. and thanks for your great question. I had to read it a couple of times to make sure I understood it. I think I have it and hopefully this answer will make some kind of sense. Fingers crossed. We can always hope. So if I were to rephrase the question, I think you're saying that the most common reactions to being abused as a child are either to become an abuser or to end up managing abusers and this pattern continues right so a guy who is.
[1:04] Has an abusive mother he's going to end up managing crazy women for the rest of his life but not become a direct abuser himself in the same way whereas a man who has an abusive parent Parent, say mother, may actually become a screamer and an abuser himself. So I think a lot of times, if you look at sort of the modern cuck slash simp phenomenon, then what you can see is we have a lot of men who are heavily focused on over-pleasing women, right? Over-pleasing women. So, in general, the most common response for a man with an abusive mother and no father is for him to become a simp, right? A simps, it's not anything to do with human nature. It's not this sort of massive frailty thing or anything like that. A simps just come from having a devouring mother. The devouring mother is the mother who uses the child for her own vanity, for, you know, these kids in my life, my kiddos, you know, they're used as sort of vanity props to increase status, to help her play the victim. They're used to extract resources from others through the state or through other means, and that's the case. So a lot of it is, are you there to serve your mother? And if you're there to serve your mother, you're there to.
[2:29] Men, if you've had a mother like this, you know exactly what I'm talking about, that her needs come first, your needs are unimportant, and in any contradiction between your needs and her needs, her needs have to win, or you're a bad person and you will pay. You'll pay either through direct violence, verbal abuse, you'll pay through guilting, you'll pay through bitter withdrawal, door slamming, rage signals, all kinds of things. So yeah and and they don't know how to know this women as a whole they don't know how to negotiate so all they know how to do is escalate which is why they can't maintain relationships and this is why they're sort of like pinballs they're bouncing off a bunch of chaotic and destructive relationships when they're younger and then when their sexual attractiveness fades they just settle into a kind of haunting bitterness and rage that that which inevitably wasn't going to continue did not continue it's just kind of weird that people do this but they do but they do so the enabler.
[3:34] Versus the abuser the enabler is the person who seeks out an abuser and then works to manage and to quote fix the abuser and if you want to look at it the reason i call it an enabler is is if you want to understand the practical dynamics of psychological states of mind or neediness, just look at the resource transfer. I talked about this the other day, you know, how dare we talk about the corruption of the world when we serve and provide resources to the corrupt. So what I mean by this is if you look and you realize around the world there's good women and there are bad women. And all the men who take resources, time, effort, money, attention, romance, whatever, all the men who take resources and provide them to dysfunctional women, immoral women, corrupt women, all the men who do that are rewarding the corrupt and punishing the virtuous.
[4:38] And then they have the nerve to say, gee, women seem to be kind of crazy. It's like, well, if you take your scarce and precious resources and pour them into crazy women rather than sane, virtuous women, well, then you're not part of the problem. You kind of are the problem, right? In many ways. Now, I say this again, with all humility, I've gone down that road of providing resources Because if you've grown up with a crazy, needy, bullying mother and no father, which is usually the case, or if there is a male figure around, he's kind of the same as you, so it doesn't provide you any guidance except in the wrong direction. But if you've grown up with one of these crazy needy hanging by the fingernails woman right hanging by the facts or hanging by the fingernails it overwhelms the the barely holding it together and desperate and hysterical and you know a constant state of alarm and and hyper excitement and staggering from one problem slash disaster to the other if you've grown up with one of these kinds of women and you've had no choice about having to serve her as a child, then when you become an adult, when one of these kinds of women comes into your purview, comes into your life, it's almost irresistible.
[6:01] It's almost irresistible. Of course, you know, sleeping with a woman who is kind of like your mother is pretty incestuous, obviously. I mean, it's understandable in terms of patterns and copying throughout our evolution, but it is kind of incestuous, of course. So often if it's an opposite sex parent right so you think of the woman she the girl she grew up with a father who was chaotic and maybe a drunk and and constantly getting fired and and.
[6:34] Sentimental and teary-eyed and and volatile and so on so she has to manage that right she has to manage that as as a kid so then when she gets older she comes across a man who is chaotic and sentimental and aggressive and manipulative and self-pitying and she feels this irresistible urge to take care of him because that's how she survived as a child right if you've only survived as a a child because of a particular strategy, that strategy is overwhelmingly attractive as a young adult.
[7:13] I survived by appeasing and trying to work with and being willing to serve the vanity of a needy, violent, chaotic mother who did not think of my needs first and used me as a vanity prop, right? So when I would run into women like that, it's like a gravity well. There's this almost irresistible, almost, right? Almost being the philosophical part, almost irresistible urge. And for those of you who haven't had this experience, like, fantastic. I'm pleased. I'm really pleased. But you want to think of it like this, if you grew up with this kind of needy parent who exploited you. You got to think of it like this. So when you're a man and you grew up with this kind of mother and you get out into the world, there's this dating pool. And the dating pool is full of some, you know, secure, happy, content women. And the world is full of chaotic needy hanging by the skin of their teeth hanging by their fingernails women who desperately need quote need you right so the way that it works in the man's mind and just i'm sure this is true for the women with the chaotic fathers as well is like this you You are a lifeguard, and you are guarding a giant lake, the swimming area of a giant lake.
[8:41] And there are two female swimmers, right? You're a male lifeguard. There are two female swimmers in the lake.
[8:49] Now, one of the female swimmers is going back and forth confidently using her front crawl, and you can hear little snatches of her humming and she's muscular and glistening and oils with butter fat or I don't know, whatever people say, it's not that cold. So, but she's totally comfortable in the water. She swims like a fish and she's contented doing well. On the other hand, you see a woman who is screaming at the top of her lungs, such screams undercut only by her head plunging underwater. water. She's screaming out that she has a terrible, terrible cramp, that her foot is bleeding, that something's biting her in the water, and she's going to die. I understand. This is what the dating market is like for traumatized and exploited man-boys. Putting myself in that category in my 20s, putting myself in that category, no, not above any of this at all, at all. So as a lifeguard, if you were to swim past the drowning, bleeding woman, and you were to go and chat with the healthy, strong swimmer, that would be appalling, wouldn't it?
[10:11] How can you as a lifeguard swim past the drowning, bleeding woman.
[10:18] Screaming out for aid, which it's your job to provide as a lifeguard, how on earth could you possibly swim past the drowning woman to go and chat with the healthy, happy, strong swimmer? Of course, the healthy, strong swimmer, the question would be in this analogy, why would the healthy strong swimmer not go to the aid of the woman who is claiming to be bleeding and drowning and if asked the healthy strong swimmer the pearl davis perhaps in this analogy because she's a athlete the healthy strong swimmer would say the woman is not bleeding, she's not drowning she's in fact in three feet of water she could just stand up and be fine but she wants attention and resources and she wants sympathy and attention from the lifeguard.
[11:11] Right she's not drowning if you lift up her feet she's not bleeding it's a lake what really is going to be chewing on her feet i guess there are some freshwater sharks in nicaragua but let's stay within the confines of northern ontario what's going to be i mean maybe a snapping turtle but it's kind of unlikely so she would say that woman is faking it she could stand up anytime she's putting on a show she's putting on an act in order to get resources and the strong swimmer would look at the woman who's faking it and say this is gross a it's gross and b it's super gross that men just flock to her like what is wrong with men that they can't see that the screaming woman is not bleeding, not drowning, just faking it. But if you genuinely as the lifeguard believe that the woman is drowning and bleeding, then you've got to go rescue her.
[12:10] You couldn't just turn up the volume on your headphones and ignore her or swim past her to the strong, confident swimming woman.
[12:19] You have to help her. And you understand that men who, as boys, were exploited by hysterical mothers are lifeguards on the shores of the estrogen lakes. We are lifeguards. We are trained to rescue and provide resources, time, attention, and money to drowning women. And women as a whole have a couple of choices when it comes to attracting a man. Women as a whole have a couple of choices when it comes to attracting a man. One is the hypersexual route, and one is the damsel in distress route. The other, of course, being the strong, confident swimmer, the strong, confident person. And every time, again, I say this with all humility, every time a man puts himself in the position of providing resources to crazy women, and I have sympathy for the crazy women. They were raised badly too, but I'm just talking about as men.
[13:20] Every time we provide resources to the crazy women, we are starving the virtuous strong women. We are providing resources, time, attention, money, sexual favors, and romance, and possibly even families and children too, the crazy women, you can't complain about that which you subsidize. I mean, you can, but it's ridiculous and corrupt to the core. You can't complain about that which you subsidize. And I think we've all had that fork in the road, haven't we, where there's been a sane, healthy, I can think about this in my 20s. Not crazy, but certainly under-functioning. Under-functioning is a big problem. A woman with big dreams who just wants X, Y, and Z, but that was my particular weakness, was women with big dreams who just needed some help getting there. So this would be, gosh, what was it, one woman who wanted to be, she wanted to be an actress, wanted to be an actress, but she felt she needed to get her teeth fixed. So she got some adult braces, she got her teeth fixed.
[14:31] And she'd met a woman who said, oh, if you want to, she was a woman who was an agent. And she said, oh, I want to be an actress. And the woman said, oh, yeah, well, you should definitely give it a shot and take some acting classes, do some regional theater. You know, you can do volunteer theater. See if you like it. See if you have a connection with the audience. See if you're good at it. And that way you can come in with some kind of resume when it comes to trying to do auditions or doing auditions. Right. And so this woman ended up, the woman I knew, she ended up going, she got her teeth fixed, but she never actually quite got around to acting. And then she went back to this woman. That's so embarrassing thinking about it so many decades later. But she went back to the agent and and said hey remember me for a couple of years ago i got my teeth fixed so i'm ready and the woman of course said well i okay i guess that's that's good but have you actually done any acting well i wanted to wait until my teeth were fixed and she's like i don't know if i don't know if you can act i don't know if you like it i don't know if it it works for you like go anyway so it was one of these one of these interactions where.
[15:44] The the gap in expectations is so wide and this was not this was not a kid right the woman i knew she wasn't a kid the gap the expectation the gap was so wide that it was like it's the awkward pause where you don't even know what to say you know it'd be like somebody i don't know emailing me and saying in their 30s right emailing me and saying i'm i want to be the co-host for your philosophy show i'm like oh have you studied philosophy no but i did take some voice training and it's like well i i i guess taking some voice training is fine i i have but you haven't studied philosophy you have no experience you have no resume and i'm not sure why we're talking like Like, again, the expectation gap, it's like me going to apply for a job as a neurosurgeon, right? I have a podcast. Really? On neurosurgery? No. Philosophy. Like, what?
[16:40] Maybe I'm missing something, but why are you here? Like, I don't understand what's happening. I don't understand what's happening here, right? So who did I give my resources to? Anyway, it wasn't a long relationship, but it was not a wise relationship for sure.
[16:57] So in general, if you're a man who grew up with an abusive father, you're likely to end up mirroring your father. But if you're a man growing up with an abusive mother or a girl growing up with an abusive father, mother, you're likely to be an enabler. I mean, the other thing that I would say is that, yes, sorry, just back to the same thing, because it's really big on the internet these days, getting mad at simps. It's like, okay, well, who raised them, right? Who raised them? Well, the moms. So simps are produced to some degree by devouring mothers and absent fathers. They are, yes, well, but it's the family court system. I get all of that. I get all of that. I really, really do. Blame the system, blame the environment, blame this, blame that, blame the other, for sure. But then you're saying that virtue is impossible until the world becomes perfect, but the world cannot become perfect unless virtue is achieved. That is the major problem. We're blaming environmental factors, and there are environmental factors, absolutely. But blaming them means that nobody can really take full moral responsibility until the world becomes perfect. Men can't choose good women until the family courts are reformed. It's like, well, so then you're never going to have a good world I mean just give up give up on lecturing anyone give up on morals give up on virtue give up on exhortations give up on criticism give up on blame give up on holding anybody accountable because there are these environmental factors that mean that virtue is impossible.
[18:25] Okay so then give up on it because if virtue is impossible because environmental factors but environmental factors can only be improved if people become virtuous to us? Then.
[18:37] There will never be any such thing as virtue, and you're just nagging people to try to become unicorns. Damn it, you need to be a unicorn. If you're not a unicorn, you're just a terrible person. Well, that's just abusive.
[18:49] Abusing people while also saying the environment is deterministic, morally exhorting people to become better while saying that the environment dictates morality is just brain-twistingly revolting and abusive as a whole. I mean, other environmental factors, sure. But it's your choice as to whether those environmental factors make you worse or better.
[19:13] I'm a better parent because I was abused as a child. I'm a better husband because my father left. I mean, not just the family, certainly not just me, but the entire hemisphere. So, yes, I'm a better person because that's so, you know, hardship makes you better or hardship makes you worse. And so, I don't, you know. Anyway, so I chose to drop tens of thousands of dollars on talk therapy, and I chose to journal, and I chose to really strive to understand myself, figure out what made me tick. And then when the right woman came along, I was ready. I mean, you understand that virtue is an extreme sport you better damn well train for, or you're going to get toasted. You're going to lose, and lose big, and lose bad, and lose hard.
[20:01] So i just wanted to mention that now another reason why people end up emulating their abusers rather than managing them or becoming virtuous themselves is if you envy the power of the abuser.
[20:17] Then you will likely become the abuser right so to manage an abuser is to say the effects of abuse are bad i got to work to minimize them that becomes a bad habit that follows you it's a good Good habit as a child becomes a bad habit that follows you as an adult and puts you in the position of the lifeguard who has to save the pretend drowning woman. Oh, but what if the woman really, really is drowning? What if the woman really is drowning? Then don't you have to go and help her? What?
[20:50] I mean, that's the fundamental question of, and it's a fundamental question to me too, if you see a woman suffering and you're a noble, heroic, white knight of a man, don't you have to go and help her? Don't you have to reinforce what's best about her and help manage her problems and catastrophes and so on?
[21:13] Well, that's just being a slave though, right? There'll always be dysfunctional people in the world. And you have to take the long view on dysfunction if you reward dysfunction you get more if you, don't reward it you'll get less you're not and you're not helping her by the way like just so you know like if a woman is floundering around and or a man right so the women if a woman is floundering around and you come and you give her recess time attention money and so on you're not helping her you're you're paying her for being screwed up you're rewarding her for dysfunction function. It's not about managing her. It's not about helping her. It's about managing your own feelings of anxiety and fear of attack when being in the presence of female chaos. That's all. That's all it is. You're just managing your own anxieties from what happened to you as a child. You're not helping her. You're not helping you.
[22:02] It's just being around a chaotic female. You can't tear yourself away, but then you have to manage your anxiety by, quote, helping her, but you're just exploiting her to manage your own anxiety. You're not helping her and you're rewarding her in the same way that men rewarded your mother for being chaotic by giving her attention, assuming she was reasonably attractive and so on, right? And the other thing, of course, is that the concept of mutuality, like a mutual exchange of benefits, the concept of mutuality is incomprehensible to exploited people, right? So it's a one-way relationship, right? The woman's chaotic, you give her resources, the chaos does not get resolved. In fact, it often spreads. And then when you are down and need time, attention, resources, whatever, the woman is not available.
[22:57] In fact, she might even roll her eyes and scorn you. So it's not mutual. And if it's not mutual, it's corrupt, right? If it's not win-win, when it's corrupt. So yeah, if you envy the power of the abuser, then you will become an abuser. If you want to manage your own anxiety about being around an exploiter and an abuser, then you will end up spending the rest of your life managing crazy people and getting hollowed out yourself. So I hope that helps. Let me know what you think. And I'm happy to get more questions, it's freedomain.locals.com. If you find these segments helpful, interesting, useful, if you could let me know, I'd appreciate that. And if you could support the show, I would appreciate that as well. If not more, freedomain.com slash donate. Bye.
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