Confront irrational behavior, find love, express feelings, donate, love-filled day.

2023, Stefan Molyneux

Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free! Get access to the audiobook for my new book 'Peaceful Parenting,' StefBOT-AI, private livestreams, premium call in shows, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series! See you soon! Shownotes


0:00:00 Introduction and book promotion
0:03:58 Appreciation for promoting philosophy and peaceful parenting
0:08:02 Trying to move forward and stay busy
0:11:32 Confrontation at the Bank and Threats of Violence
0:15:06 Driven to the Hellhole: A Mother's Influence
0:19:38 Prioritizing the wrong things, missing the obvious solution
0:28:27 Exploring the Concept of Attachment Style
0:29:24 Frustration with Different Treatment in Different Neighborhoods
0:29:58 Questioning the "Freaky Deaky" People
0:31:38 Choosing between a high-quality place or a meth den?
0:32:19 The Fear of Normalcy
0:43:27 The Unconscious and Resistance to Change
0:49:26 The Perception of Danger in Safe Environments
0:54:10 The Challenge of Breaking Out of Dysfunction
0:57:46 Lack of Cultural Reason for Long-term Planning
1:04:58 The Chaos Experienced by People with Continuity
1:09:36 Reactive vs. Proactive Mindset in Chaos
1:16:09 Open Forum for Questions, Issues, and Comments
1:21:08 Parents' Influence on Fear of Rejection
1:24:44 Navigating Public Perception and Relationships
1:29:21 Frustrations with Failed Relationships and Insecurity
1:33:28 COVID's Impact on People with Hypochondria and OCD
1:40:53 Parents' advice on anxiety vs. mother's struggle with OCD
1:50:46 Frustration over lack of effort and understanding
1:56:54 Decades of Failed Attempts to Solve Anxiety
2:00:05 Lack of Honesty and Emotional Connection
2:05:46 Hiding Feelings: Deception or Self-Protection?
2:11:04 Challenging the idea of taking away free will
2:15:23 The father's role in supporting the mother's behavior
2:17:59 Overwhelmed by Choices, Seeking Guidance
2:18:11 Exploring Options for Dealing with a Loved One's Anxiety
2:21:42 Confronting the Resistance to Treatment and Seeking Solutions
2:27:25 Destructive burden of irrationality in family dynamics.
2:30:37 Taking radical self-ownership in solving personal issues.
2:34:09 The importance of the pair bond and judging family dynamics.
2:37:47 Holding a friend vs holding a baby
2:47:27 Rejection and frustration over choosing craziness over reason
2:55:36 The Impact of Mother's Behavior on Relationships

Long Summary

In this part of the conversation, the main speaker reflects on the caller's relationship with their mother and the impact it has had on their life. They acknowledge the difficulty of confronting their mother's irrational behavior but emphasize the importance of doing so for their own well-being and the potential for a healthy future relationship. The main speaker encourages the caller not to let the fear of confrontation hold them back from finding love and happiness, as their mother's beliefs should not dictate their choices. They urge the caller to express their feelings to their mother and discuss the unfairness of her actions, emphasizing the importance of open communication. The main speaker also reminds the listener to assert themselves and stand up for what they believe in, but advises caution in choosing the right moment to address sensitive topics. They conclude by expressing gratitude for the caller's time and attention, encouraging donations to support the continuation of the show, and bidding the audience a wonderful day filled with love.

Brief Summary

In this part of the conversation, we reflect on your relationship with your mother and the impact it has had on your life. We understand that confronting your mother's irrational behavior can be challenging, but it is essential for your own well-being and the potential for a healthy future relationship. We encourage you not to let the fear of confrontation hold you back from finding love and happiness, as your mother's beliefs should not dictate your choices. It is important to express your feelings to your mother and discuss the unfairness of her actions, emphasizing the importance of open communication. Remember to assert yourself and stand up for what you believe in, but choose the right moment to address sensitive topics. We appreciate your time and attention, and if you'd like to support the continuation of the show, please consider making a donation. Have a wonderful day filled with love.


conversation, relationship, mother, impact, irrational behavior, well-being, healthy future relationship, fear of confrontation, love, happiness, beliefs, choices, express feelings, unfairness, open communication, assert yourself, stand up for beliefs, sensitive topics, time and attention, support, donation

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Introduction and book promotion

[0:00] Excellent. I think we are more or less good to go. So, you know, welcome to your Sunday, 22nd of October 2022 Uh 2023, sorry, and let's just get straight to listeners because it's all about, the you my friend.

[0:21] Uh, it's all about The you let me just actually sorry mike mike level's coming in a little hot a little hot there there. And just remember, of course, that you can get, we're on part five of the book on peaceful parenting. We're on part five of the book on peaceful parenting, which you can pick up at Also, I did a show on Smalltalk, using very little words obviously, I did a show on Smalltalk and we're using a new sort of process where you get summary time stamps and even a transcript so you can check that also out at just scroll a little down through the feed and you'll see or you can do a search for Smalltalk do a search for Smalltalk and that works out pretty well pretty well so just wanted to mention that now we are going to try a little thing here I like being able to do the chitty chat stuff, I really, really do like being able to do the ChittyChat stuff here, but of course the challenge is that we've been trying to find a way to get tips.

[1:34] Because, you know, I mean, I respond to incentives like everyone else, and when we can do tips, generally, that's where I'll move.
Now, of course, some of the platforms support tips, and some of them, well, don't.
And, just having trouble getting the file, James, if you wouldn't mind dropping the link into the chat for where people can give me the tips, on this gorgeous voice activated and inactive.

[2:05] Hey, I'm going to, um, re-mute before you talk. So I'm just going to, I mean, probably try to say a few things first.
So first of all, I just want to say I was going to advertise when I first answered the call, but I realized that that might not help because it was a direct feed link.
Because I've been sharing that link with like people like randomly that I think want to get help with just kind of upping their game per se.
And I actually bought, I just want to run this by you because I'm not trying to like hide this behind your back or anything.
I bought a hundred business cards and I put the direct feed link on there.
So I'm just hoping I'm not doing that to like undermine you.
When I was thinking about it, I thought that was a good idea, but I'm not sure if that's a good idea for you because I don't know if that's going to make you money and it might generate you a lot of haters.
So I can cancel those cards I just got them, I just ordered them yesterday. So I'm sure I could still cancel them. So I just kind of want to run that by you if that's, I didn't put your name on the card. And I put my.

[3:08] Phone number and name because I was hoping like, you know, if they wanted to talk or we could help each other, like, you know, become more close. Cause I actually consider myself a peaceful parenting advocate. So yeah, that's when I'm, that's like, kind of like my plan is just be one of the best peaceful parenting advocates I can possibly be, and that means a lot of different things, but I'll just, I'll hold here and mute myself so you can, so you don't get the feedback from your own mic, okay? No, listen, whatever you guys want to do to promote philosophy is fine with me. Obviously, I don't want you to put yourself at risk, I don't want you to get fired, you know, but whatever it is that you want to do to promote philosophy is certainly gratefully accepted by me, I'm sure we'll be gratefully accepted by the future, so I appreciate that and.

Appreciation for promoting philosophy and peaceful parenting

[3:58] Please feel free to do whatever you like. I mean, so I Have no issues with that and and I thank you for it And I hope that people will listen especially to the message of peaceful parenting. Of course. I hope that people will listen and, We'll see how it goes. So is there anything else that you, Wanted to add on that, Yeah, I just want to add to for people to kind of heed your warning at the beginning of the book, because there was a part where I couldn't control like my emotions at all. And I, I really cried, apart. And it kind of helped me a bit, but it was really kind of hard to handle through afterwards.

[4:40] So yeah, that's why I was trying to connect with other people because, Because, you know, it's kind of hard to, when you're in like, you know, not the best community, it's, it kind of triggers people just to like, you know, look a certain way or, you know, like, put your head at a certain angle.
For some people, it's just like, you know, who the hell is this guy?
So like, I've been heeding your advice, and I don't, I don't want to give up hope.
So that's why, you know, I do a lot to defend the show and everything.
So uh, I just want people to know that, you know, there is hope, it's worth fighting for.
Listen, I appreciate all of that, and I don't want to interrupt, but obviously you're feeling very strongly about things, and why don't you tell me what's going on for you?
What is giving you these very strong feelings? Not necessarily about the book, but just in your life as a whole, how are things for you, and what is giving you this passion?

[5:39] Well, um, I, uh, I had a daughter and, uh, I don't know where she is or anything.
And, uh, I don't know anything about her.
And, uh, so, you know, those memories came to my mind and, you know, just like so much frustration because like, you know, one thing led to another and, um, I'm trying to like improve my life. And so I actually, I went to court and filed restraining orders against both my parents, um, because for very strong reasons, they only granted my dad, uh, the restraint, the restraining order for my dad for, I can't really get into this very specific details, but there was a very good reason to do so. And then with my mom, I have a second hearing coming.
I'm getting ready to go to that. And I am prepared to hopefully have a lawyer help me, Hang on, I don't want you to get too detailed into illegal stuff that's upcoming but, what happened, you said you don't know where your daughter is, what happened with that?
I'm so glad you asked, thank you.

[6:57] And you know that the suffering of fathers out there is intense, right?
The suffering of fathers is intense, and one of the ways that you kind of wreck a culture is you render fathers powerless, you render fathers helpless, and I think the court system has something to do with this, and culture has something to do with this, so I mean you're part of a large gathering group of fathers who have been, you know, to some degree or another rendered helpless and powerless by, you know, a court system that often favors women and the women are wonderful stuff in culture as a whole. So I hope you don't feel overly alone in this but it does seem to happen quite a lot and the stories of course are out there by the millions of men.
And I tried, I tried, like, I'm sorry to interrupt, is it okay if I just, I was, I was walking from church, right?

[7:57] And I said, I'm just trying to do like the best I can with what I have now, like, I can't go back in the past.

Trying to move forward and stay busy

[8:03] And I know it's kind of an excuse, but you know, I just, I just literally, I can't go back in the past.
So, so I, um, I was, you know, I went to church, you know, and I'm looking into going back to college and like, I read, like, I've listened to your book, The President, I know I get like all that kind of stuff, but I'm just, there's only so much I can do.
So I'm just basically I'm following your advice to, uh, bury yourself with like, kind of like busyness and just become resurrected.
So that's what I'm trying to do with myself.

[8:31] So like, I'm just constantly doing stuff, finding stuff to do and just keeping busy.
And so I was walking. I appreciate that.
I appreciate that. And, and good for you.
What happened with your daughter?

[8:43] If you want to talk about it, if you feel it would be helpful.
Yeah, I do. I do. I do. I do. I definitely want to talk about it.
My ex-wife, we were married at the time, and from the hospital, she took our infant from the hospital and brought it to her mom's house, and she just basically kidnapped her.
Like from there on, there's like, you know, it was also a little bit more complicated than that one action.
I mean, she also had a rocky relationship with her older brother and she came, sorry, he came back from this other place, kind of far away, you know?
So then since in the hospital, he was like kind of like taking over the, you know, older brotherly role and just like trying to manage everyone and, you know, let me see the, I didn't get to hold my infant in the freaking hospital.
He held him, he has, excuse me, he held her and I didn't even get to hold my own infant when she was born.

[9:45] Everyone was holding her but me. This is terrible.
Like I can tell also that when they're like, you know, my wife at the time, she was telling me to go, like, go, yeah, go downstairs and get hospital food.
And like, thinking back, like I know she was talking to her sister who, you know, she's far away too, while she was taxing here and they were probably planning this ahead.
You know she was raised by a single mom so I should have known better I just you know I didn't my parents didn't warn me that about any of this stuff you know I came from a two-parent household she came from a one-parent household so I mean I mean I could get more detailed I just don't know how much we should which should be said live so you know I'm not sure I'm not sure all that I don't want to step on anyone's toes the wrong way. Do you know, this is not to agree with your wife of course but do you know what complaints she would have as to why she left with your daughter?

[10:35] Yeah, uh, basically what led to the rockiest part was a guy punched me in the face and then that's like when shit kind of hit the fan like, you know, her, uh, stepfather who was living with her.
I mean, I don't even know if they're the, cause they didn't get back.
That's not what they did. So her stepfather was like criticizing the goal.
Like you just let hit to some random guy, punch him in the face and he didn't punch back.
Back or anything. And then the same thing just happened today, actually, like a guy in the bank, he just like his kid tried opening the door. And I he said before he opened the door, the father said that I think it was the father. I'm not sure it kind of looked like it maybe is a dog. I don't know. But he he went to open the kid went to open the door. And before he did, and I saw the body language of the kid, I could tell like he was kind of like kind of sneaky. And I didn't really know if I I should trust him.

Confrontation at the Bank and Threats of Violence

[11:32] I know it's a kid, which is, I didn't know how to react to the situation the perfect way.
So that never happened before. So anyway, so then the father says, oh yeah, throw that out in the trash.
And I'm like, wait, he's using the bank just to throw something out in the trash.
That seems kind of sketchy to me. So he's, the kid is trying to open the door to keep you, just to keep you, you know, entwined in the detailed situation.

[11:54] The, sorry, I got snot on my phone. It's messing up. The, the bank has a part where you can put the card in to get in. And so that was the reason for the security thing. Because my card's going in and some random person's going in, what if they deface the bank? Because I'm liable. That's what I was thinking in the back of my head really quickly. And so I just went to close the door as he was opening it. And I didn't want to fight, obviously, he looked like he was 12 years old or whatever. I didn't want to fight a kid for the door, but I didn't think of it that way. I just said, okay, well, he's trying to open the door. I'm trying to close it. Only one of us can win. So I just closed the door. And then the father.

[12:33] I don't want to get into very specifics, but he basically slowly went apeshit. And no matter what I said, didn't matter. And so then he went in the bank. I let him go in the bank first and just kind of like deferred like, okay, you know, I understand, you know, you're like, you're reacting the way you are. Go ahead. And so he went to the bank and then I was like, I was waiting outside the bank. And I'm like, I can only wait so long. And I saw his kid like looking to the right and kind of staring at me. So I'm like, okay. And then I saw him like just, and what I wanted to start before this happened, I went to the bank after him. He said, what the, you know, like, what the frick, you know, you're, you're coming in this bank and you know, who do you think you are?
And all this kind of stuff. So I could tell he was going to get very aggressive physically.
So I left the bank. And then, so this, so that was the second interaction I had with him. So, the third part was where like, he was kind of taking a little long, so I didn't want to wait and I didn't want to be like freezing outside even though it's kind of warm out and so I went inside, just waiting like just okay it's fine like you know we had a bad interaction it's fine and so then he got in my face and you know again he went back for the words and I can understand where I kind of went wrong now I already talked to the police about and stuff but or one one cop and so so then uh I actually ran a dispatcher I guess so then so then the guy uh put me against the wall with his hands and said if this happens again I'm going to fucking break your neck.

[13:56] And so I'm like, you know, I'm trying to do the best thing I can.
And these fucking, it's like, I don't know, I don't want to be like a crisis actor or anything like that.
Like, you know, it's just, it's like, how do you cut a break?
I mean, I just made, dude, I spent like, people don't realize how much time I spent trying to fucking improve my life and society as well.
And like I spent like all night last night. Wait, society? Hang on a second here. Yeah. Society?
What are you trying to fix society for? Why don't you move to a better neighborhood?
Yeah, no shit, dude. That's what I've been trying to do. It's fucking hard.
Okay, well stop spending money on business cards. Listen, I appreciate it. I really do.
I appreciate it.
But you gotta save yourself first, don't you?
Yeah. I do.
I need to save myself first. You said you came from a two-parent household, and I assume, you know, at least a better kind of upbringing.
How did you end up down in this hellhole?

Driven to the Hellhole: A Mother's Influence

[15:06] Oh, God, like... Basically, I let my mom take over my head too much, like...
No, no, no, no, don't give me abstractions. I don't know what any of that means. Okay.
How did you end up in this hellhole and how are you gonna get out?

[15:24] Physically, how did I end up here? I was driven here by my mom, and now I just walk around outside and I look for places, but everyone, when I look for places online and stuff, I need more money, so that's why I'm just keeping it busy, because I know it's like maybe I should get a car instead and look for a place that way, but cars are hard to find.
What do you mean you were driven here by your mom? My mom was like, you know, we went to a social services agency together, and that's a whole other story.
It's too much work for you. It's going to be hard to boil this down.
Okay, so if it's too hard to boil it down, how are you going to get out?
It seems to me like this, this, uh, the pressure of your circumstances and your environment is kind of tearing you into, into a thousand pieces, isn't it?

[16:29] Um, yeah, it is. So I just, my God, it's, it's so fucking, like, I don't like it.
I just, I just want to get out and I'm doing everything I can.
I just don't know how to get out. like, literally, like, I've tried, and every attempt I've made has failed so far.
So, like, I don't give up. I mean, that's the thing, that's the mentality I have.
Okay, I get it. I don't want to deal with your mindset, because we've got practicalities here, right? So, what do you mean you can't get out? Does that mean that you can't, you don't have the money to get to even one room in a house somewhere in a better neighborhood.
No I do.

[17:19] And so? Yeah. So, okay, so I guess that's the next thing I'll do, is just research how to find the...
Yeah, because people say, oh, I don't have the money, and it's like, dude, I... and again, I'm not trying to say, like, oh, look at me, but I mean, the reality is that I got...
I lived in one house, I lived in one room in a house with six other people in a decent neighborhood, at least it wasn't this kind of neighborhood that you're in, and it was dirt cheap.
So I don't quite understand the money argument. I mean, if you have the money to rent in a bad neighborhood, you have the money to rent in a good neighborhood, you just need a smaller space.

[18:06] I feel you on that one, true that. Okay, so why, you're a smart guy, it's an obvious solution.
So what is this, have you been so ground down by life circumstances, history and choices that this is what you feel you deserve, it's all you've got left?
Or is it that you are mad at yourself and you're staying in a bad neighborhood so other people will attack you so you can avoid your conscience, like what is going on?
Well the thing is, that's what happens is that I make these plans and then like it's really hard to execute, like I made the little commitment, you know like verbally at least kind of whisper it to myself that I'm going to go to college and like, you know, cause all the people that I admire, like they, they've tried and found a way to do it. And you know, I know in some ways it's probably easier for them because you know, my parents aren't college graduates.
So that's where it's kind of hard because it's like what you say with, um, I don't know, maybe it might be a mindset thing. It's just that, you know, what, what you say of, uh.

[19:08] Like what the hell you want to try to do better than your parents.
Hang on, hang on, hang on, slow down, slow your roll. Why are we talking about college when you're getting half-assaulted trying to deposit something at a bank in your neighborhood?
What the hell? Get out of the neighborhood! Like, what are you talking about college for?
I mean, you might not make it to next week!
Yeah, that's true. Yeah, you might be right about that.

Prioritizing the wrong things, missing the obvious solution

[19:38] I mean, you're like a guy who's bleeding out saying, well, I've really got to watch my cholesterol.
I'm like, you're watching your cholesterol spill all over the floor.

[19:51] Well, this is where, I don't know, you know, I know knowledge doesn't always help, but then do you want to know the truth or.
I'm not sure what to say about that question. I don't know what the truth is. I don't know whether you should say it. I have no idea. How am I supposed to know whether I want something or not that's completely undefined? What I do want to know is what's going on with your priorities, that getting to a better neighborhood isn't number one, and forget everything else for now.

[20:19] Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. No, that is...
It's just like all these complicated contractual things just like pissing me off and like people stop by randomly and like drop stuff and throw stuff out the balcony and like it's just like messing with my mind.
Okay, so you're wrapped up in a universe of static. Everything's complicated, everything's interdependent, everything's confusing, there's so many options, there's so many variables, right?

[20:52] I keep saying to you, don't tell me about your mindset, because whatever your mindset is, it's got you stuck in this violent neighborhood, right?
Okay, so simplify this shit down!
Stop overcomplicating everything, and you know in life it's called triage, right?
I mean triage is like, you divide the patients in an ER in a big accident into three categories.
Those who are going to survive without immediate attention, those who are going to die even if you try and help them, and those who need immediate attention in order to survive.
So you got a lot of stuff going on and it seems to me that something has short-circuited your prioritization engine.
Is that fair to say? Yeah.
Because you can't solve anything in your life if you fear assault at the bank machine, because.

[21:54] You're in a constant state of fight or flight. And if you've got complicated stuff and you're combining that with a constant state of fight or flight, you won't be able to solve much of anything.
I hear you. Okay.
I can't hear you. Okay. So boiling it down, I just... Okay. Move out.
No, listen, you're like a guy running from a bear who's calling me about whether he should go to grad school.
And I'm like, you know, maybe the bear thing first, and then, you know, maybe three months after the bear thing, when your fight or flight has cooled down, you can start to think about more of the abstract, complicated way things in the balance kind of stuff.

[22:40] Right. What needs to happen for your life to improve in a month?
Not five years, not ten years, not to get your daughter back. What needs to happen for your life to radically improve in a month that you can do? Or that you can imagine you can do?
Um, well, get the protection order from my mom approved. That would help just quell some anxiety.
Um, I guess the second thing is just, I think getting my own vehicle is more important.
Just like I for everything that I found it just I need to get a job first before that happens so that's been my number one priority for a while just getting a job and it's so hard to like actually find a job where someone isn't just bullshitting you to fill out an application it's like it's so hard just to find someone who just wants to hire someone who wants to work and be dependable it seems like that is not true that's no no no no no that is not That may be the neighborhood, that may be the people you're going to, but all I hear from people in the business world is how hard it is to find quality people who want to work.

[24:01] I was talking to a friend of mine just the other day who's like, yeah, hired a guy and, he went for lunch, never came back.
So yeah, finding quality. So assuming that you've got things to offer in the marketplace, which I'm sure you do, it's not that.
So, what did you skip over that we were just talking about in terms of improving your life?
Finding a room and a house.
Well getting to a safer neighborhood, right? Yeah.
So why did you skip over that? Do you, I mean, is it not important?
I mean, because you're like, well, I got to get this with the courts and I got to get a car and for that I need a job and like it's all these complicated things that take a while and aren't directly under your control, right?
So why are you skipping over the one thing? You might disagree with me, which is fine, but it seems like the most obvious thing, so why skip over it?

[24:55] Uh, well, it's just like, I'm one of those kind of like double down people.
Like once you put yourself on a goal, it's like every obstacle is just something to either avoid over, overcome in some way, or just, you know, just, that's kind of like where my head goes. So no, I just, I don't want to skip over it. I didn't, I didn't realize it.

[25:18] I've committed to live in this terrible neighborhood and I'm going to see it through if even if it means I end up in the morgue. I'm seeing it through. You can't deviate me from my task even if my task is leading me off a cliff.
Well that's to be more specific because I know that's it's great to give it just like you know I just kind of like was watching for a while living here.
I was just watching you know really degrading porn and I've stopped doing that and like you know my neighbors I don't think are as nice and easy going ever since I've stopped doing that.
Doing that so like I'm just that's where it's like I get more more balance out of what I'm doing in my life and I'm not just mindlessly watching porn. I'm almost too frightened to ask why your neighbor's behavior has changed based upon your porn consumption. Are they watching it with you? Are they listening in? No no. Okay then don't even ask that. I'm just telling you that's incomprehensible.
Okay, so tell me why, when we talked about you getting to a place of physical safety, you ignored all of that.
And I'm not saying I'm right, it just seems to me pretty important.

[26:28] Why, what's the barrier to getting to a safer place? Well, sometimes when I go to safer neighborhoods, I assume they have guns and that if I knock on the door, they're gonna like threaten me with the gun.
So I'm afraid to knock on doors.
And then I also have some memories of like being a sales agent.
Hang on, hang on. One step at a time.
One step at a time. No problem. So your sequence is, you move to a nice neighborhood and people will shoot you for knocking on the door.

[26:58] Is that your thesis? That's what I think, yeah. I know it's not actually going to happen, it's just that the emotionality of it kind of overcomes me once I'm in the neighborhood sometimes.
And so I just, I kind of talk myself out of doing it. A good neighborhood threatens something in you.
Now you imagine that that's a gun, but it's not the gun.
What does the bad, what does the good neighborhood threaten you with?
A good time? I don't know.
Um... Do you feel like you belong?
I do, yeah. In the good neighborhood? Yeah.
So you feel like you belong, and also that they're going to shoot you for knocking on the door.
I think you're going to have to pick one of those lanes, brother, because you can't straddle them.
Yeah, no, they won't shoot me for knocking on the door. And also, why you go around knocking on people's doors, what are you, you trying to give them copies of the watchtower or sell them a vacuum cleaner?
You don't need to go around knocking on people's doors.
So you feel a threat from a good neighborhood. Yeah.
What threatens you, and it's not the gun, obviously, not the guns, what threatens you about a good neighborhood?

Exploring the Concept of Attachment Style

[28:27] Maybe just the attachment style? Just like maybe that...
My God, you're an abstract fellow! The attachment style! What does that mean?
The tentacles that apparently people hold guns with in the good neighborhood houses?
What threatens you? What's upsetting to you about a good neighborhood?
What do you fear about a good neighborhood?
I don't see what I lost out on for so long, I guess. Well there's some kind of pain there, right?
You feel like you don't belong, whether there is a sense of loss, maybe you grew up in such a dysfunctional environment that normalcy is a great threat to your parents, it could be anything, but something's barring you from a pretty simple phone call and a bus ride to get to a better neighborhood.

Frustration with Different Treatment in Different Neighborhoods

[29:24] To the point where you're like, okay, well, it's true that I end up half getting beaten up by, Trying to deposit something in the bank, but boy, you know those people in the good neighborhoods They just shoot you for knocking the door and it's like, you know, that's crazy, right?
That's not even close to rational which means that there's some emotional need that's being served some fear of being around functional people.

Questioning the "Freaky Deaky" People

[29:58] I'm going to ask you the question that I have in my mind whenever I see the freaky deaky people.
I'm not putting you in that category, I'm just saying this is my thinking.
You know the people who've got like the weird hair and facial tattoos and piercings and, it's like, and weird clothing and so on, and I don't understand it and maybe you can help maybe this is the point of this this call but what's wrong with normal what's, wrong oh they're just normal I mean you have to be living among some real messed, up people I mean I've lived in some pretty rough neighborhoods I've never been half-attacked for trying to get to a bank machine like you got to be livid right down there at the bottom what's wrong with normal it's the same thing like if somebody's got some giant lip piercing or what's wrong with normal what why is normal so horrible that you're gonna do this.

[31:15] Yeah the guy had like front bottom missing teeth and stuff so just like okay I think it has something to do with like you know this sort of street gang life and oh no you're in the world of like oh meth then I'm sorry that's too high-class for me I'm gonna have to go a little lower.

Choosing between a high-quality place or a meth den?

[31:38] Can you repeat that I don't know if I understood that well I mean you're at the stage almost like where somebody offers you a place to live and you're like well what is it and you're like well it's a meth then and you're like, Now, that's too high quality for me. I have to go lower.
Meth den. Meth den? I can't go that upscale, man. What am I, a Rockefeller?
So, what's wrong with just having a normal...
Roaming a normal neighborhood in a normal town where you don't have to fear for your life, because you've got to deposit something? What's wrong with normal?

The Fear of Normalcy

[32:19] Everyone wants to be abnormal to the stereotypes other people set for them so I think you're kind of misconstruing it. You are a king of abstractions. I didn't mean this in the abstract sense. I meant what's wrong with normal for you?

[32:41] Well normal for me means that you know I'm just gonna I guess smoke cigarettes smoke weed and just be unemployed and disabled my whole life, which I definitely don't want.
No, that's dysfunctional. What's wrong, like you look at normal like it's going to shoot you in the face because you knocked on the door to ask for a cup of sugar or to introduce yourself to the neighbors.
So something is wrong with normal, something is terrifying or weird with normal to you to the point where you're staying in whatever hellscape you're in.
What's wrong with normal?
Well, normal here means that you're mentally ill, and so people, you know, they think when you say normal, they're like, oh, so that means you're mentally ill, and probably on — Please stay with me. I know that you want to go off into the Elysian realms of platonic idealism.
Keep your feet on the ground, I'm begging you.
So I said, what's wrong with normal for you? Normal being a safe neighborhood.
And you're like, well, normal around here is mentally ill. That's not what I asked.

[34:00] What's wrong with being safe? What's wrong with being in a neighborhood where you don't have to fear, go into a bank machine. What's wrong with normal for you? Today, right now, in this call.

[34:17] It means I'm going to be gay.
I'm certainly happy to hear this connection.
How does moving to a safe neighborhood make you gay? I've never quite heard this etymology.

[34:39] Well, the last time I tried moving to a nice neighborhood, I was, supposedly it was an accident on the plane.
A guy hit me twice, maybe with the luggage, and he said, I'm sorry each time, and then I turned around and looked at him and couldn't really say anything.
So I was like, okay, maybe it was an accident, maybe it wasn't, then I left.
And I was in the international airport, and then some guy came up to me and was like, know like do you suck dick or something he kind of said it like in a sly way like he wasn't talking to me kind of like looking in a random direction but I could tell you was coming up to me to say it and so I was just like in this airport I'm like what the hell am I gonna do from here because I had plans to just like you know get work and find a place to stay and just didn't pan out so I ended up leaving and I didn't I didn't feel patient enough to wait overnight, it's all daylight to go back out. Right, so sorry, some guy said something weird to you and that means you have to stay in this terrible neighborhood. I'm just curious if you think, just you know in general, do you.

[35:53] Think that people have ever said weird or mean stuff to me either in person or online? No and I get that that happens to me as well it's just that you know I've been in the dark for a while so I just I don't have like the social media...
Abstractions, abstractions, abstractions. Okay do you think that people have said weird or threatening stuff to me in person or online? Yes. Okay so by your logic what should I do?
Uh, stay inside your home? I guess stay inside my home and live in the worst neighborhood known to man, god, or devil.
And cancel all my future plans, shut down my website, never do a show again, hide under the couch.
Is that your theory as to how I should do what seems sensible to you?

[36:59] I mean, why would you, you know, you're not helping the world as a whole by giving assholes so much power over you, right?

[37:06] Because you're just feeding the beast and the jerks.
Sorry, go ahead.
No, that's why I don't tell people about the show, because I don't want to let you guys down, that's why.
Okay, I don't care about the show, forget the show, forget telling people about the show.
Why, I mean, I get that you got the legal issues with your parents and I sympathize.
But the problem is, the credibility that crazy people have in your head.
Yeah. Right? And listen, I'm with you brother. We are down in the same trench.
We are dealing with the same stuff.
I mean I was raised with pretty crazy people. you have to find a way to get to sanity, the crazy people have to lose credibility.
And when you get a crazy thought, as we all do, you get a crazy thought, you have to say, okay, what are the odds? What's the reason? What's the evidence? What are the facts?
You have to, I mean, to get, if you race with crazy people to become sane, the crazy people in your head have to lose all credibility because the crazy, like you're so used to defending against crazy and violence, you don't feel comfortable in a neighborhood where you don't do that every day.
All day. Every time you're out of the home.

[38:32] But the crazy people in your head say, Oh, well, you know, I can't move to a safe neighborhood because they'll shoot me in the face for knocking on the door.
Okay. Is that a rational perception? Is that a rational belief?

[38:46] No. Right. This comes from your childhood where I assume some pretty abusive parents wanted to make sure that you never had any allies or any friends that you could talk to that you might reveal the abuse to. So what your parents did, it's a very common control mechanism and obviously if I'm wrong, I don't want to tell you your life, tell me if I'm wrong, but your parents said, damn son you don't even know how crazy, scary and dangerous the world is. Out there people shoot you in the face for knocking on the door and they'll turn you gay for trying to move to a better neighborhood.
Out there is hell and we're keeping you safe in here. It may feel dangerous in here, son, but let me tell you, it's way more dangerous out there.
Out there, they'll rip your heart in two for asking for another packet of ketchup.
Out there are zombies and lions and predators and octopuses with scimitars in each one of their suction cups cops and they'll slice and dice you for holding the door open for them at the, bank machine. Out there is hell. In here we just prepare you for what's out there.

[40:12] It's horrible, deadly, hellish, violent, vile, and destructive out there. We're just trying to keep you safe. Did any of that happen when you were growing up?
Yeah, it's definitely a parable that explains it, yeah.

[40:33] So, how do you stop the crazy people in your head from having credibility?
It's a big question, it's the big question. Sorry, go ahead.
I was saying cynicism, skepticism, just, you know, ask for credibility. And that's the problem is that it's worth it. I guess that's one of my problems is I'm looking for credible people on like the worst part because I put that distinction in my head and I ask...
Abstractions, abstractions, abstractions. Alright. So you said cynicism and skepticism, right?
Right. Now, the voices in your head that's saying that the world is really dangerous, what are they there for? Are they there to harm you or were they there to save you?

[41:24] They never saved me. So imagine that you had, as a kid, you had gotten some allies, some friends, and some friends' parents, and your friends' parents, you'd finally told them about what was happening in the home, and your friends' parents had come over to confront your parents and said, you know, we hear there's some really dark and devious stuff going on here, you know, we want to talk to you about it, and your parents had understood that you had gone to an outsider to talk about what was going on for you in the family home as a child, and let's say that for whatever reason, your friend's parents were unsuccessful and you were left alone with your parents after that, and they knew that your friend's parents weren't coming back, what would have happened?

[42:07] I'm going to have to listen to this one on repeat, Steph. No, that's fine, I'll do it again.
I'll do it again. Okay.
Let's say that you had gotten some allies out there in the world who'd come back and confronted your parents and then left, what would have happened? What would your parents have done after you brought in people to confront your parents about how bad they were when you were a kid? They come, they talk, they leave, you're sitting alone with your parents, what do they do? Destroy me. Right. So, accepting that the world was dangerous, brutal, violent, and you were never going to get any allies, accepting that was an absolute necessity for your survival as, As a child does that make sense?
Yes, right How's it working for you now?
It's not working at all. So we tend to get mad at the quote crazy people in our heads and say, stop leading me down the garden path, stop saying crazy stuff. But it's only crazy now.
It's only crazy now. It wasn't crazy back then. It was entirely sane back then to accept that the world was a dangerous place because looking for allies could have got you killed or maimed or beaten or abandoned or whatever fears were going on. So, it wasn't crazy then, it's just crazy now.

The Unconscious and Resistance to Change

[43:27] And so, the unconscious, you understand, our unconscious is not programmed to process change.
Why? Because throughout most of human history, nothing changed.
You couldn't escape abusive people, you couldn't escape an abusive tribe, because being alone, meant you either died individually or your genetics died with you. So we're not processed to handle change. So the reason why these voices stay in our head telling us crazy stuff is because there was never any chance for sanity in the past. But now we have the modern world where we have options and choices and we can escape the crazy but our unconscious doesn't know that because our unconscious in no way evolved for the life we lead today where you can get away from crazy. I mean what are the odds throughout almost all of human evolution, that you or I would ever have been to able to escape the crazy people who raised us or people just like them?

[44:30] Nil yeah, I mean so nil that you wouldn't you wouldn't throw that in it's a possibility and of course now We can escape the crazy people, But in the past if we tried to escape the crazy people things would go very badly for us indeed either, ostracism expulsion violence or genetic death because the one thing we know about crazy parents is, they were sexually successful right they had kids and, And we imprint on sexual success and because our genes want to reproduce, our genes are always whispering in our ears or yelling or screaming or dancing or chanting or yodeling do what your parents did, do what your parents did, do what your parents did, do what your parents did.
Why? Because you exist and therefore your parents were sexually successful and therefore in order for you to reproduce you have to do what your parents did, do what your parents did, do what your parents did.
And that worked for almost all of human history until maybe the last 200 years.
When you could flee to the city, you could flee to the new world, you could travel, you could move to a new town, you could change your tribe.
And you know, we got a couple of billion years of nothing changes and our genes of course haven't caught up to, hey by the way you can change now.

[45:50] Nope. It hasn't. hasn't happened, right? So, how you lose credibility with the crazy people...
In your head, how do you drop their credibility? Well, you have to move to a sane environment.
How do you stop being frightened of lions? Well, you have to get out of the lion's den.
Otherwise, it's perfectly rational to be frightened of lions because you're in a lion's den, so the lions are dangerous.
But if you get out of the lion's den and you get to a hotel or wherever, then there aren't lions in the hotel room, so you can begin to calm down.
So, you've got to get away from the crazy so that you can begin to discredit the crazy.
But right now, the crazy people in your head aren't crazy at all.
You are in a situation of near perpetual danger. Does that make sense?
Yes, it does. So, they want to keep doing their job and you're used to managing crazy, you're used to managing violence, you're used to managing uncontrollable danger.
Am I wrong in that guess?
No. So, the only sense of power that you felt as a child was managing crazy dangers.

[47:06] And so, when crazy dangers are in your life, you feel like you have some control.
I know that this sounds kind of contradictory, but it does seem to be the way that it works.
And so, if the only control or sense of efficacy, competence or power you had as a kid was managing crazy dangerous, that's why you're in the neighborhood.
And you will feel out of control if you move to a safe neighborhood.
Because you know what happens to the crazy people in our heads when you get to a safe place? You know why they freak out?

[47:45] Because they don't have that sense of power and dynasty in their emotional...
Yeah, they get fired to some degree, but what they really freak out about is if you genuinely believe, that there are lions everywhere, right? You live in the jungle, there are lions, panthers, whatever, everywhere. What happens to your sense of danger when you say, Oh man, I can't see any lions.
What does your sense of danger think when they can't see the lions?
What do they think the lions are doing?
Waiting for the right moment to bounce. Sneaking up.
They're hiding. It's like there was an old joke at the Oscars, I thought it was kind of funny.
There was an old movie Crouching Tigers, Hidden Dragons and some guy said, I watched the movie and there weren't any tigers and there weren't any dragons.
Then I realised, it's because they're crouching and they're hidden.

[48:51] So if you believe and you have every reason to believe if you grew up with crazy violence, that there are predators everywhere, if you move to a place where you can't see any predators Your nervous system kind of freaks out because it's actually really dangerous.
If you can see the lion in the middle distance, okay, he's elite.
But when you can't see the lion at all, that usually means he's sneaking up through the tall grass and he's going to chew your ass off.
So getting away from danger heightens the belief in danger, the perception of danger, if that makes any sense.

The Perception of Danger in Safe Environments

[49:26] Yeah, that makes sense. So then...

[49:33] If you unconsciously believe or accept or have been programmed to accept that a lack of danger is the greatest danger because it means that you can't see the lions that are creeping up on you, then when I say what happens when you move to a safe neighborhood, you say, oh, they'll shoot me in the face. So when I said...
Well, let me just let me just tell you this. Yeah, I'm actually court-ordered to take medication and I, Tried my very best to fight it get check this out. I spent no no, no I'm not no philosophy has nothing to do with courts and it has nothing to do with enforced medication Okay, I can't do anything about that. That's not the realm of philosophy. I'm trying to give you some self-knowledge here, Right, and you're jumping in so I'm telling you here's the things that you can control and you're jumping And well, court-ordered medication is like, well, that's not something that's a free will issue that philosophy can decide, so we're going to go back to what you can control, because I'm not going to get drawn into a discussion about things I can't control, because then you're just trying to transfer your helplessness to me, okay?

[50:43] So I make the case that when you escape dangers, your nervous system considers that the greatest danger, and then I say, well, what happens if you leave the bad neighbourhood and get to a good neighborhood, you say, they shoot me in the face. Or I say, what happens, what else happens when you get to a good neighborhood? You say, well, a guy, hit me with the luggage on the plane, another guy made a gay comment, so I guess I'll be gay.

[51:11] So, that's why, probably, I think, I guess, I don't know, you're stuck in a bad neighborhood, because a good neighborhood feels even more dangerous because you believe that there are lions but you can't see them, so you can't ever relax.
At least here you might be able to relax a little bit in your room, but if you can't even see the lions, you could never relax.
So maybe you feel that this is the greatest relaxation you can get and moving to a good neighborhood would be more dangerous, that would be my guess as to something like what's going on.
So you have to, like, if you believe that all women are devious, manipulative, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?
And then if you believe that, right?
And then you come across a woman who seems to be genuinely thoughtful and nice and loving and mature and responsible, what do you fear deep down?
If you believe all women are bad and you come across a good woman, what do you believe?
You believe deep down, of course, oh man, she's really good at hiding it.
Oh man, she's really trying to lure me in. This is even more dangerous.

[52:29] And she's even more dangerous because she's hiding her female malevolence so well.

[52:38] Yeah i did actually come across i actually am. How are you if you go abstract on me i won't be happy i'm just telling you doesn't mean you have to make me happy i'm just telling you i won't be.

[52:50] I went to a comedy club because last time we talked you ask you know have you ever been to a comic club i said no so i thought maybe that'll help so i went to a comedy actually first i went to an improv club.
And then I actually planned a whole bit, and the second day that I went, I was able to get on stage, and then they weren't happy with my performance because I opted for the George Carlin sort of dark truth type comedy, which is more truth than comedy, and they were, I guess, very fearful of my performance afterwards after I talked to the director.
So I talked to him and he was like, yeah, that wasn't a comedy club, it was an improv club. So I was like, okay, that's not actually a comedy club.
So then on Friday, this Friday, past Friday, I went to my first ever comedy club and I actually felt good.
And then I saw these two women, they said they were from New Hampshire and I'm like, what you just said right now is poignant.
Poignant because I was like, well, they're probably trying, they're probably up to no good, but they, when I reflected on it, they didn't have, you know, all the markers that you discussed, like, and that I agree, mostly I agree with, they didn't have any of those bad markers.
So I'm thinking like, we've been talking for a while, I'm going to need a point to the story.

The Challenge of Breaking Out of Dysfunction

[54:10] Okay. The point is that, yeah you're right like about that I will assume the negative and the wrong woman and it'll be hard to find a quality woman eventually. Right, right so and you of course are a slightly more vivid example of a general principle, that we're not designed to break out of dysfunction. We can but it's hard.
And it's real easy to try and manage the predators by being in a place where there are predators, because when you get to a place where there aren't predators, what's the phrase when I was a kid? You're waiting for the other shoe to drop. You're just waiting for the person to turn on you. And the more reliable they see, the more they're going to hurt you when they turn on you. So virtue becomes something that's even the biggest predator, because it's going to lure you into a false sense of security.

[55:03] Right. All that kind of stuff. Right. So anyway, listen, I really hope that you get to a better place and I really do sympathize like with what's going on in your mind like holy crap that's that's tough stuff to be involved in all of this stuff stuff with your daughter stuff with your parents that's really hard and I, sympathize and I hope that you get to a better place if there's anything I can do to help of course please let me know but I'm gonna move on to other callers now at the moment but yes save your if you can cancel the the cards and save your money to get to a better neighborhood, I would be thrilled beyond measure. So I really do appreciate your time today though. Okay, thank you. You too.
Thank you. Take care. All right, thank you for your patience people. Let us move on. domain if you'd like to help out the show. domain. Let me just throw on my glasses here and get to somebody else. HH, my friend, you've been very patient. If you want to unmute, I'm all yours. Wow, that was quite a story, Steph.

[56:17] Yes, I agree. Massive sympathies go out to the guy and some very, very tough circumstances to try and get out of, but I'm sure he'll make it. Well, what's on your mind, my friend?
What's on my mind? Last week we talked about how men growing up seem to be taking less responsibility and how that was related to fatherlessness and I've, been thinking on the question and now it seems that the government isn't exactly purveying long-term plans either. They keep telling us that any moment now the world is going to simultaneously... I'm so sorry, could you just lean in or speak up a little? I'm just having a little trouble hearing you. Is this better? Yeah, just go ahead. Okay, and that with the decay of Christianity there's also a loss in in long-term planning. People used to build cathedrals, they started building a project they'd never seen the end of and people no longer want children, so that also leads to a loss of long-term planning. And we discussed wisdom and how wisdom is the application of morality to everyday life. Now my question is what are your thoughts on how it appears that there seems to be no cultural reason for long-term planning?

Lack of Cultural Reason for Long-term Planning

[57:46] Well long-term planning for what?

[57:50] I mean how many how many I mean this is a genuine question I don't know the answer. How many people out there look at our current society and say I would really really work, hard to defend its continuance. I'm just going to make sacrifices and so on.
Or to put it another way, how many people out there are going to take the general stuff that's out there in culture and government education and say, I'm really going to work hard to make sure my kids learn this stuff and fully absorb it?

[58:28] So, how many people out there will fight super hard to keep what is, knowing where it's heading?

[58:37] So, in terms of long-term planning, for what? I mean, you say, oh, well, for my kids and so on.
It's like, well, okay. But if you're teaching your kids not what is in general government education, I mean, obviously, the nuts and bolts, the reading, writing, arithmetic, and so on, but but maybe some of the more moral or cultural stuff, maybe not so much, then okay, so you're kind of teaching your kids that whatever the future is, you hope it's kind of different from what it is right now.
And it will be. I mean, I was reading some statistics on the pension plans in Canada, and I mean, you can look them all up yourself, but it's like, okay, so long-term planning, you know.
I mean, I remember over 40 years ago when I was in junior high school, and people said The teacher was saying, your pensions, your pensions, your government pensions, and we all laughed at him.
And we weren't even that good at math.
Come on, of course it's not going to be there, right? So in terms of long-term planning, I think most people are planning for some kind of change.
I don't know what that is. I mean, I know what I want it to be.
I've written a whole book about it, but in terms of people are planning for a change.

[59:47] Some people want more freedom, some people want more totalitarianism, but I think everybody understands that what is, is not particularly sustainable mathematically.
And so, in terms of long-term planning, I think people are doing long-term planning, they're just anybody who's got half a brain is not doing long-term planning for the current system. Does that make any sense?

[1:00:14] I mean, I'm not sure. If you look at most people's time span, if you ask them about how they imagined themselves in five or three years, they glaze over. I think most people don't even plan a year ahead.
Well, no, but of course they don't.
Of course they don't.
Listen. I mean, this could just be me. I don't think it's just me, but it could just be.
Haven't we all felt like basically something tied to the tail of a kite over the last, certainly over the last couple of years?
Over the last couple of years, the world has mutated, paroxysm, spasmed, epilepsed and Tourette's itself into virtually an unrecognisable state.
Families torn apart over mandates, Covid, restrictions, loss of rights, restoration of rights, nobody's talking about all the hell that went on socially and morally over the last couple of years.
There's no truth and reconciliation commission for this kind of stuff.

[1:01:25] And so the laws have changed, the rules have changed, society has changed, emergency acts are invoked, media has proven itself even to the normal person, I think the media has proven itself to be a slightly shy of 100% reliability, let's be as nice as possible.
I mean, de-platforming and threats and riots and...

[1:01:58] Chaos. Like world-transforming, unmanageable, dodgeball with a fiery ball chaos.

[1:02:12] Now of course this is the R-selected environment. K-selected environment is about predictability.
I'm hungry, I'm going to go hunt, I've got a reasonable chance of catching some food.
And it's all about predictability and reliability and stability.
Now the R-selected people, so to speak, don't do as well in the K-selected environments and vice versa.

[1:02:41] So the people who are more R-selected, people who are more spontaneous, and there's some creativity involved in all of that, so it's not good or bad necessarily, but the people who are more chaos-based, well what do they do?
They don't like the, this is what's wrong with normal, they don't like the stability, they don't like the reliability, they don't like the predictability because their sort of quicksilver hysteria, hyper, you know, brains don't work well in that and they have relatively low status.
When things stay the same, people who are good at predicting are high status.
When things change quickly, people who react spontaneously are high status.
People who are fluid and reactive and can turn on a dime and are 100% committed to the thing of the day, like I'm sure you've seen this meme where the NPC gets hypnotized with various media things.
Well that's not an accident.

[1:03:47] If things are changing rapidly, the people with little stability or integrity do better.
When things are more stable and predictable, then people with high predictive abilities and stable personalities and integrity tend to do better.
I mean the guy in a situation of our selected mating strategies, which is one night stands, short-term relationships, then the guy who can look at the woman and say I really care about you, I love you, I'm high-status and then sleep with her and move on and say the exact same thing to the next woman the next night or the next week, he does really well. He does really well. Nice guys finish last in, the R-selected dating market. In the K-selected dating market those guys are called players, or fops, or unreliable, and there's a whole 19th century genre of, novels that were specifically designed to warn women about these kinds of things. You can see this, of course, in Jane Austen and Samuel Richardson and other novelists.

The Chaos Experienced by People with Continuity

[1:04:58] So, the people who can commit 100% to the thing of the day, do a lot better in a chaotic environment because they don't experience the chaos.
Because chaos is only experienced by people who have some sense of continuity.
If you can remember what happened yesterday, right, like I mean the sort of famous example is the, you know, in the First World War, it was the war to end war.
The First World War, by gosh, I mean, it's worth all the sacrifice, because after this, there just won't be any wars.
Okay. So then the people who remember that are kind of surprised when there's a, cluster of wars in the twenties, and then the Second World War started again in 1939, which was really the First World War continued with a 20 year semi armistice.

[1:05:49] The people who were told the vaccine's a hundred percent effective at stopping COVID and stopping its spread. I mean people who have continuity look back and say, you, know that seems to have drifted a little, that seems to be not, you know, what you said, couple years ago is not what we're saying now. And so in a time of change, the people who remember get bewildered and screwed up. We get disoriented and it's easy to get annoyed at us. What are you bringing up?
That's all the knowledge they had at the time, but they didn't say it was a fact, they didn't say it was just their opinion.

[1:06:32] So in a time of chaos, people with continuity, people with memory, people with strong predictive abilities get messed up and disoriented.
People can handle being spun around, sober people can't.

[1:06:59] So, when you sort of, even you can go back further of course, right, but you know just looking over the last couple of years, anybody with a memory, I mean doesn't it feel like we're going insane a little bit?
Because you know we all are going to measure our sanity to some degree by the people around us.
It's kind of inevitable, it's how we learn, like all of the words we learn from the people around us and so on, and the basic properties of reality we learned to some degree with the people around us, like our father would say, that's a ball and show us its properties and so on.
So, we are all social learners to some degree and when we are in a situation where we're surrounded by these sort of quicksilver mental smokestacks of people who drift any way the the wind blows and are 100% certain of something they were 100% certain of the opposite just yesterday and don't even notice the transition, that's a whole mindset.
I don't know how deep it goes, but it's a whole mindset.

[1:08:08] And for instance, the people who will say anything to win, I'm sure everyone's had someone like this in their life maybe even dated but people who will say anything to win and you know maybe you get this desire to record them and play back what they said not ten minutes ago because they'll simply adjust their story to win in the moment.

[1:08:37] And proactive versus reactive, the predator is proactive, the prey is reactive.
The predator stalks and circles and plans and teaches and trains their pups and the prey just wait to be leapt at and then jump away and then run away and then dive into a hole or whatever they can do to become safe.
So if you're proactive and you plan, you are going to end up in a situation of chaos, can constantly be bewildered and disoriented.
And you doubt yourself, you doubt reality and all of the things that you think make, your life controllable and efficient and you can prevent chaos and problems, all of that goes by the wayside because you're in a situation of dangerous chaos.

Reactive vs. Proactive Mindset in Chaos

[1:09:36] And all of the people who don't plan, do better.

[1:09:42] Like, you think of the antelope trying to flee the pride of lions, right?
The female lionesses.
Now, the antelope says, oh, I'm going to run this way.
And I say, oh, my plan is to run this way. And then she takes like 10 steps and then some lioness comes out from behind a bush that way. What does she do? Does she say, well, I had a plan, I got to stick to it?
No, because then she'll die. She has to immediately change her plan where she was fully committed to going north, now she has to go east. And then if a lion pops up on the east, she has to go south.
And she's 100% committed because she's reactive and just trying to survive.
Now if you were to say to that lion, sorry, if you were to say to the antelope, well wait a minute, you were committed to going north and then you suddenly went east and then you were committed to going east and then you suddenly went south.
Like make up your mind, like you've got to be committed to something.
Now of course if you say that, the antelope, if the antelope could speak, would say, no, No, no, no, my commitment is to survival.
If running north raises my chances of survival, great. If a lioness pops up behind a bush to the north, I'm going to run east and so on.
The purpose is not consistency, the purpose is not follow through.
The only plan is survival and everything else is subjugated or subordinate to that plan, because you're in a reactive state.

[1:11:03] Now if you compare this to, say, a squirrel gathering nuts together for the winter, well, the squirrel has to plan for months and months and months ahead.
It has to bury, it has to remember where it buried, it has to go back and dig up and survive and feed and so on, right?

[1:11:26] But in order for the squirrel to be able to plan, the situation has to be stable.
Or there are generations, it sometimes takes generations of butterflies to fly to places in Mexico or wherever they go in order to winter and reproduce.
But that has to be a predictable environment for there to be long-term planning.
The prey species, they're just eating.
And then they're eating, they're staying alert, and they run away.

[1:11:56] Whereas the case-selected are long-term planners, right? This is the grasshopper and the ant, which I've talked about a billion times before.
I won't repeat it here.
So in a situation where the rules keep changing, the laws keep changing, the perspectives keep changing, people you thought were friends now become enemies, families you thought were blood loyal now hate you because they're told to, and it's just chaos and unpredictability, and integrity becomes something that makes you feel crazy.
And quote mental flexibility which is a prey characteristic you just run whichever way the lion isn't and asking for integrity makes no sense the only integrity is to survival and a survival means changing direction changing your mind changing your morals changing your perspective loving who used to hate hating used to love just to survive you'll do that there's nothing to guide yourself by other than survival because there's no predictability in the future, I mean, the antelope runs where the lion is not, but of course the lion could be hidden.
The lion jumps out, the antelope changes its path.
It's unpredictable because you don't know all the variables.
And so, the sort of chaos mindset that's dominating the world at the moment has just introduced so many variables that you can't predict anything.

[1:13:12] Where are you going to live? What are your kids going to, what are your kids' life going to be like?
What can you predict?
Can you save? value of the American dollar has gone down by 17% in just three years. Yeah.
Did people plan for that? Well how could they? They didn't know what was cooking.
They didn't know what was coming.
So, the unpredictability means that the planning people are being assaulted in their essence, in their nature. And the chaos people are thriving.
Because the planning people are like, well wait a minute, yesterday you said, which to the chaos people makes about as much sense as nagging the antelope for changing direction but a lion popped up in its path.

[1:14:03] So as far as planning goes, yeah, I mean it's... I don't have much.
I mean I'll be straight up with myself, I used to. I used to.
But not only is change accelerating and chaos accelerating, but the change and chaos are, guaranteed to accelerate further.
Because you know all these people in power are saying we've only just begun for the chaos, right? So where are we?
Know where you are, you know, obviously everyone's in a slightly different situation, but for, me it's like, okay, let's try and see where the next lion is and adjust our path accordingly.
And when chaos rules over order, right, this is the old lawful versus chaotic alignment set in Dungeons and Dragons. There's a lot of real really important insights into that order versus chaos. It's a K versus R selection predictability versus adaptability.

[1:15:15] So for me it's like I don't know what's coming next. I want to do the best work that I can, but I don't know what's coming next. And you know to some degree I avoid poking around what what might be coming next because you know you're gonna get through the day and I try to avoid negative things that I can't control. There's not much point worrying about things beyond your control. So I hope that makes some kind of sense but those are sort of my thoughts on the subject.

[1:15:48] Well you always help to clarify what I'm thinking. You're... No that's too quiet I can't hear you.
You always help to clarify what i'm thinking your verbal intelligence explicit but most people know deep inside so thank you for that.

Open Forum for Questions, Issues, and Comments

[1:16:09] Sorry, I'm going to assume that that was a fairly well-loved kind of comment.
Do we have anyone else who has questions, issues, comments, criticisms?
Anything that is on your minds, I am more than happy to facilitate, my friends.
What is on your mind? How can I help?
You are on if you want to just... Oh, did I get that?
If you wanna unmute, all ears.
Hey, Stefan. Yes, sir. Hey, how's it going? Good.
Great, so I had a question for you. So I listened to a podcast of yours a little while back where you were talking about taking risks and how not taking risks is actually a bigger risk than taking risks.
And I felt like that one really applied to my life in particular.
And I just had a question because when I'm taking risks, it feels very scary to me.
Like I feel like an overwhelming sense of fear take over me.
And I wanted to know like how to get rid of that.

[1:17:19] Ah, yes, the old, I would like to saw off an essential part of my personality, but still remain me.
Excellent. Right, exactly. I think you've really understood the ecosystem.
All right. Okay, so first question, of course, and this is, you know, self-knowledge stuff.
So very, very useful and helpful.
So, first question, if you've got a...
A particular mindset that's troubling to you, a particular reaction, is to say, okay, and this is a question to you, what was your parents' reaction to you taking risks as a child?
Which is another way of saying, were you raised with a father? But go on.
Yeah, I was raised with a father, actually. But the funny thing is, is that they actually did encourage me to take risks when I was growing up. And actually said, you know, you got to take more risks. And, you know, my dad in particular was saying the kind of things you were saying in your podcast, but maybe not as eloquently as you are.
I feel like you actually hit me more when you were saying it because you explained it so well. Okay.
Good. I love that the obvious answer is not there. That's beautiful. That's fantastic.
Okay. Now, did your father live his philosophy? In other words, did he take reasonable levels of calculated risks himself and roll with the punches?

[1:18:32] Yeah. You know, like my dad did take risks. I can't say maybe they were the biggest risk, but he was a very successful, he is a very successful businessman.
He started companies at a young age, and I think he's pretty successful in life. Fantastic. Okay.
And when you were a kid, would you say that you had a heightened sense of risk relative to those around you, which can just be the way that you are?
I mean, there's morning people, there's night people, there's people who are slightly more susceptible to anxiety, which can be helpful to the tribe as a whole, people who are slightly less susceptible to that. So, when you were a kid, were you more risk-averse than the kids around you from the beginning, or was that something that grew, or how did that go?
Yeah, I really feel like I probably was. Especially when it would be things like, let's say, asking out a girl that you liked, I would definitely feel extremely nervous about doing something like that. Or if, let's say, there was some sort of competition or something like that I'd be like, you know, nervous to enter it.
And this was like riding a bike and so on, were you more nervous than those around you?
Well, actually physical things, I was actually more of a daredevil. So for instance, I actually learned how to ride a bike at the age of three years old and no training wheels.
So when it came to those types of things, it wasn't that didn't bother me.

[1:19:54] Okay, so was it more interpersonal stuff? Yeah, like if let's say I had a girl that I just give you an example.
Yeah. Okay, so there was a girl that I really liked when I was in high school, and I told my parents about it. And they were like, Oh, okay, you should, you know, try asking her out. And, you know, a couple weeks go by, I didn't do it yet. And eventually, coincidentally, my mom ran into her mom at a grocery store, and she invited their family over to dinner. And not that we knew each other that well, those just, you know, typical things like parent teacher conferences, stuff like that. And their family came over and my parents were trying to talk me up. We're having a good time.
And then my dad said to me, hey, you should say to this girl, you want to hang out with her again or something like that? And I was like, yeah, yeah, it's probably a good idea.
And then when they were leaving and the time came to do that, I just kind of like chickened out and it was like an overwhelming sense of fear came over me. And I was like, oh, So if she says no, it would be in front of both our families, and I just couldn't do it.

[1:20:59] All right. That's very interesting. Now, how did your parents react to this recoiling from what you wanted?

Parents' Influence on Fear of Rejection

[1:21:08] Yeah, they kind of knew that was my personality at that point.
And they were like, you know, you got to get over this. You got to just take the plunge.
To me, it kind of feels like, to give an analogy, it'd be like if you're afraid of heights and you're on the edge of a high dive.
And so I was like, oh, come on, just jump. You know, it's not going to be a big deal.
You're not going to get hurt. It's just water.
That's kind of how it feels to me. So their advice was to get over it and do it?

[1:21:34] They said, you know, I'm not sure if it was exactly that one thing, but something like that, right?
Yeah, I would say so. And how old were you when this happened?
Like probably 14, 15, maybe at most 16. I don't remember the exact age. Okay, so mid-teens. Now, how did it go for you, going forward with asking out girls? In other words, your parents identified that you had, let's say, a challenge or something like that, and, And they said well just get over it. Did they track whether you were able to and how that went?
Yeah, like we talked about it a lot and It was definitely an issue where I'd be like, yeah, you know, I like this girl and you know Eventually I get to the point where I could ask her out But one of the problems I had is a lot of times they'd say no just because I came off as so nervous So even when I did go over the problem, it didn't actually solve the problem So, you don't lack physical courage, but you're very scared of rejection.
Yeah, definitely is, it's like, I think it's probably somewhat irrational to your...
Yeah, I don't know, rational or irrational when it comes to emotions is, it's like, it's oil and water, they don't mix, right?
Because they're rational to something, you don't have emotions randomly, right?
They're not like epileptic attacks or something, so there's some reason for them.
Okay, so physical courage you've got no problem with, but rejection you feel very sensitive to, is that right? Yes. Okay. Did your mother stay home with you when you were little?

[1:23:03] Uh, it's kind of a, that's kind of a tough one. So she did stay home until I was ready to go off to school, and actually I had a younger sister too, and she stayed home with her until she was ready to go to school. And she was actually was a teacher, and she was teaching at the same school that I went to. So my sister was ready to go to school. Basically, we'd spend all morning together.
She'd drive us to school together, and then I'd just be in school, and then she'd drive us home and spend the rest of the day together.

[1:23:28] Okay. And how close are you to your mother and father? Very close. I actually work for my dad's business, so I see them all the time.
And did your mother take great pleasure in you as a child? You have sort of fond memories of playing together and enjoying each other's company and so on?
Yeah, I would say so. All right. And did your sister have any issues with, I mean, it's a little obviously different for girls, but with rejection and this sort of interpersonal stuff?
So my sister is like a very pretty girl and she's kind of a late bloomer though, she probably didn't get that way until she was like maybe 16, 17 years old.
And at that point she had like a lot of guys asking her out.
But I would say like before that she definitely had a lot of problems, but I'm not sure if he was actually trying to ask any guys out or he never talked about interest being interested in guys.
But she actually just got married recently and congratulations.
Yeah, so she has a family now, and I mean, I definitely had way more problems than her, but at the same time, it's definitely easier for her because she's a girl and she is, you know, like on a scale of one to ten, she's like a nine out of ten on, you know, physical things.
Well, it's not necessarily. I mean, we all have this fantasy that if you have more choice, life gets easier.

Navigating Public Perception and Relationships

[1:24:44] Yeah. It doesn't necessarily. I mean, because then you get pastured.
You have to be kind of cold in public so that you don't encourage guys and you get, you you know, some guys who are too interested in you and kind of stalky.
It's like everyone's fantasy, well, if I had all the money in the world, I'd be perfectly happy and never have any problems.
And if I was pretty or if I had abs, or, I just want to point that out, that it's not necessarily. Right, well, more to your, yeah, more to your point, like she did actually make a lot of bad decisions with guys prior to her current husband.
And I never even liked any of the guys that she dated prior to her current husband.
And I, you know, spoke my opinions and I actually got her to get rid of some of those guys in the past.
Excellent, good for you, well, way to keep her safe. All right.
So, what about when you were in school, how were you with making friends?
Oh, that's, I actually had a lot of friends, like I was semi-popular in high school, and I was like, it's funny, I was kind of popular with the guys, like I had a lot of guy friends, and I did not, like, do very well with girls, so.

[1:25:48] Okay, so we've narrowed it down further. You're not afraid of rejection from friends.
It really is just the ladies, right? Is that fair to say?
Yeah, I would say so well, what about looking for work and and feeling like you have something of value to offer in, intellectual or economic circles, Yeah, I think I'm pretty you know confident with that as well although you know, I am working for my dad So it's not like I took a huge big risk there But at the same time I feel like I'm offering his business a lot of value, right? Okay, and, Do you have did you have anything when you were younger that would give you insecurity with regards to your attractiveness?
You know, like some people have crooked teeth or bad hair.

[1:26:32] Was there something that made you feel sort of self-conscious with regards to attractiveness?
Well, I'm extremely, my entire life I've always been very skinny.
So it's like hard for me to put on muscle or fat.
And I was a bit self-conscious about that. Like for instance, my graduate high school, I was like 120 pounds at like five foot nine. So pretty skinny.
And I guess I had like, I had curly hair, but so I'd shave it off.
So it was like a buzz cut, so I didn't really have to worry about that anymore.
And did you do sports or weights or anything to try and counter the skinniness?
I did eventually, but not until like maybe 17 years older, so I decided to start lifting weights, and I actually got like big into bodybuilding for a while, and the highest I ever got in weight was like maybe 160 pounds, which is a lot for me.
Right, it's 40 pounds of muscle, man, that's a lot. That's a lot. Yeah.
I mean, it's my bicep, I get that, but you know, for other people, I'm just kidding. All right.
Okay, so how did things go for you when you began to work out more?
Did you feel more confident about stuff?
I did, yeah. And I started to get, like, more so in college, like I got a lot bigger, and I started talking to girls more, and I still had the same problem, though, where if I really liked a girl, it was definitely harder for me to ask her out versus, like, if I wanted to just go up and talk to a girl that I didn't really like yet, because I didn't know her yet, it was kind of like a lot easier.

[1:27:57] Yeah, I mean the cold approach is tough for all but 0.1% of guys, so I get all of that.
But even a cold approach for me for a random girl is a lot easier than, let's say, if I get to know a girl somewhat and then I want to ask her out.
Okay, do you have a good track record of choosing quality females?
Let's see, I would say definitely not bad because the girls that I wanted to get I never actually got them and a lot of them ended up in good relationships eventually.
You know, like let's say I'm friends with them on Facebook still, I see what their families are like, you know, so I would say most of them actually were probably quality girls that I liked.
The problem is, is that like it felt like it was very easy for me to get the kind of girls I didn't want.
Like what? Oh girls had problems like let's say they you know drank too much or you know had kids or something like that. Kids wow okay so you really did did go all in on the dysfunction okay. No I didn't go for those girls I'm saying those kind of girls. Okay but have you had reasonably long-term relationships yet?
No that's the problem is I haven't. And what's your age range? 30. You're 30 okay You have a... I'm sure you look as young as you sound. Okay.

Frustrations with Failed Relationships and Insecurity

[1:29:21] So you're 30 and what's the longest relationship you've had?

[1:29:26] Like a couple months. And even after all, I didn't even like her that much.
It was just more of like trying to get into relationships, see if I could, you know, do it.
And it just like... I just couldn't do it.

[1:29:37] Right. So I assume porn addiction because you're 30 and not in a...
Oh, no, no. Actually, definitely not. Oh, good for you. Okay. All right, so...
Where is your level of desire for girls? Because we all fear rejection, but it's the hormones, the lust, and the desire that drives us onwards. I mean, what's your level of desire?
Well, I have a pretty high desire now, although the city I live in is not that big and there's not that many opportunities anymore at my age to find girls, even within, let's say, five years of my age.

[1:30:18] Thank you.
Well, but I mean, if your desire were higher, you'd have moved.
Oh, you're working for your dad, right?
So your dad actually encouraged you to pursue a very low-risk career strategy, which was to work for him, right?
He didn't encourage me to work for him. Well, he let you work for him, didn't he?
Yeah, that's true. I mean, what's he going to do? Say, no, you're not allowed to work for me? Of course.
I guess that's true. I mean, he does encourage it. If he values and he's encouraging you to take risks, just about the least risky thing you can do on this planet is work for your dad, right?

[1:30:51] Yeah, I mean, that's true, but, you know, it's not like you're saying, oh, you got to work for me, it's great working for me. He was kind of like, yeah, you know, you should try to do your own thing. And, you know, if you want to work here, you can do that. If not, that's cool, too. And how long have you been working for your father?
Since I graduated college, which was like, seven or eight years ago.
All right, so your father has been watching you for eight years pursue a very low risk lifestyle, right? Yeah. And what has he said about it? He's definitely like encouraged me to try to, you know, maybe move or go do something else. Like, he thinks I'm a pretty smart guy. He said to me, he's like, look, you're twice as smart as I am. If you took more risks in life, I think you'd be extremely successful.
And why does he think you're twice as smart as he is?
I just use when we talk about various things, like a lot of things, I'll say I've heard on your show, like, you know, if I talked to him about, let's say, a stateless society, you know, things like that, he will not, let's say, understand all the philosophical arguments towards it.
And it's not like he disagrees with me, necessarily, he's just like, look, you may be right, you may be wrong. Honestly, this is kind of above the kind of things that I think about.

[1:32:07] Okay, and what about your mother? What does she say about you being 30 and never had a relationship really?
Yeah, I mean, obviously she's not happy about that either.
Yeah, I didn't ask what her emotions were. I asked what she said about it.
What she said about, is this a family emergency? Is everyone all hands on deck?
Your sister, your father, your mother, or?
Yeah, she's definitely like tried. And so is my sister. We're like, you know, my sister's like, oh, let's go to a coffee shop. And well, you know, maybe you could try to talk to some girls there.
Like my mom will, you know, say like, hey, what if you tried doing this or that?

[1:32:49] And how do your mother and father get along? They're going pretty well. I will say that my mom does have obsessive compulsive disorder, which may be made genetically where I kind of get my extreme cautiousness to some circumstances.
So I don't know.

[1:33:12] Sorry, I just felt like we were onto something there and then you kind of faded on me.
Yeah, sorry. Uh, yeah, so my mom does have like random, uh, like irrational fears. I'll tell you a big one was when COVID hit. She was like totally freaked out about that.

COVID's Impact on People with Hypochondria and OCD

[1:33:28] Oh, COVID was brutal on people who were hypochondriacs or have OCD or, yeah, it was just horrendous.
I mean, it really, really tortured them. And it drove a lot of social discourse, that kind of stuff.
Right, exactly. So you could say to her, let's go do this. I'm like, oh no, I'm afraid of that place because there's a lot of people there and COVID and blah, blah, blah. And, you try to explain to her, no, that's not how it works. And her brain just turns off when you're trying to explain that.
It's a little bit how it works, right? I mean, airborne, more people means more airborne, doesn't it?
Well, no, even if there was a lot of people there and then they left and then we want to go afterwards or something like that, you know, like she'll think it's on the surface like three days later. Oh I see, okay, okay, got it, got it. And has she ever sought treatment for this? She went to therapy for it. I think it, I think my dad said that like at one point it was worse and then it got better but then it got a lot worse with COVID. And did she seek to re-enter? Because you know OCD is, I'm no expert on it, but my understanding is it's it's pretty treatable with the right therapist.

[1:34:35] I'm sorry, what was your question? I couldn't hear the first part.
Did she go back to, after it was reactivated during COVID, did she go back to try and get help with her OCD?
She did not.

[1:34:50] Right. Okay, and so what is the problem that you're trying to solve in terms of remaining single?
And the reason I ask, it's nothing critical. It's like, okay, well, you've been 15 years, right?
Years right you first got interested in girls 14 or 15 years old so for 15 years you've been single and it's been okay enough that you haven't really dug in to try and solve it. Is there anything in particular that's changed that equation?
I mean if you've been relatively comfortable with something for 16 years or 15 or 16 years is there anything that's changed that's made it higher priority? Well I guess the older you get you know the more you start to panic.
Was it turning 30 or was there any incident in particular?

[1:35:31] No incident in particular. It feels like a gradual thing of like thinking like hey you know at 20 it feels like everything's fine and then 25 I'm starting to get a little nervous and then 30 like okay time to panic.
Okay got it got it. So it wasn't anything that made you like I chickened out with some girl or like yesterday or something? Well I tried for the past year I've I tried like a little, a lot harder with dating.
And like, so I know you've said in the past that like this is probably not the best way, but it's so hard around here to find dates any other way.
So I joined some dating sites and I did not get a single date in the past year.
Like I got even very few matches and like it just kind of made me panic even more.
It was like, oh wow, if this is not working, then you know, it's just seems that much harder.
Right, right, okay. So, how can I best help you, do you think?

[1:36:29] I really don't know. I guess... If I do have a magic wand, which I do seem to at times, where do you want me to point, it?
If you had a magic wand that could just, like, you point it at me...
Yeah, like, what is it that... It takes away my anxiety...
Yeah, what's the biggest barrier, do you think?
Right, I guess getting over that anxiety of, let's say, approaching girls and especially girls that I'm really interested in and, you know, acting not nervous around them.
How was vulnerability handled in your family when you were growing up?
If you were afraid of something, if you were nervous about something, if you had anxiety, how was that handled?
Let me think.
You know, I guess my mom would probably, you know, be very nurturing, I guess maybe try to talk about it.
Your mom? Wait, what? I'm sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but your mom with OCD was telling you how to handle anxiety?
Did I miss something?

[1:37:36] Yeah, I was, I'm trying, I'm not saying it was just my mom talking to me, but obviously she's gonna say something. Hey, you brought up your mom, I'm not trying to drag her into this.
Right, right. Okay, well, didn't you say... All right, so let's talk to my dad.
Um, let's see. You know, he... I guess he would try to encourage me if it was an irrational thought to get over it. I don't know...
I'm sorry, your dad who married the woman with OCD is telling you how to get over irrational fears? Could he help her? I mean, what... I could...
I mean, what's the... With your mom, what was the demonstration about anxiety? It's insolvable. It's unsolvable.
So your mom couldn't control it. Your dad married someone who was anxious.
Yeah. And was unable to solve it. So if they can't solve it in your mom, if your parents can't solve it in your mom, how are they going to solve it in you?
Right. To be fair, though, to my dad, she did not, like, exhibit the extreme OCD that she did after they were married, because I asked him about that, because I was, basically, he said to me, oh, she's always been sort of a nervous person, a lot of anxiety, but it started to get worse after we got married.

[1:38:42] Right. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything because...
Oh, no, you said you married... No, I'm talking about your experience as a child.
Your experience as a child was, I assume, you noticed that your mom was kind of nervous.
Oh yeah, and I thought that was like, you know, in my mind it was a lot more normalized.
Like I look back at certain things in my childhood, I'm like, oh yeah, there was the OCD there that I didn't really realize at the time.
Can you give me an example?

[1:39:08] Example? I mean, it would just be a little things like she would, she would have like certain fears.
For instance, for some reason she was terrified of a, what was it?
A laundry detergent, like of getting it in her eyes or getting it like in her mouth or like absorbing in the skin or something.
So my entire life doing laundry growing up, my mom would be like, Oh, be careful when you're using the laundry detergent.
And I thought that was like maybe a poisonous thing. Like maybe it was like some legitimate concern.
And then I found out later, like, yeah, you could touch it like normal soap.
That's not going to kill you.
Harm you, right? Yeah, so I just didn't know. I assumed that she was correct about that.
I mean she was hyper concerned with like, you know, when you're handling food, let's say chicken you get, or eggs, you get salmonella from that. And you know, everyone is cautious about that, or they should be, but she took it to like an extreme, you know, like where she's like scrubbing down the countertops, like extra careful, like scrubbing her hands, like after touching things.
So like she just took it extremely seriously. And what was it that prompted her to get treatment when you were a kid.

[1:40:05] Guess because it just got worse. So I don't know. I didn't know she got treatment for it or that She had it until more recently I just thought she had a nervous personality type and then like my dad finally told me that she had OCD and then I was Like I think it's just kind of clicked into place, Right, okay So your parents were unable to solve the problem of anxiety in your mother right, So I'm not sure what they were. I mean did they say listen And we're the last people to give you advice on how to handle anxiety because we can't manage your moms.
I mean, sorry, I'm just going back with some annoyance to your dad.

[1:40:46] Oh, that's annoying as hell. I'm just telling you I'm annoyed.
I'm not saying there's anything objective. I'm just telling you my emotional experience.

Parents' advice on anxiety vs. mother's struggle with OCD

[1:40:53] Do you know where I'm going back? Which part?
You said when you were 14 or 15, your parents invited that family over because you liked the girl right? Yep. And you're like I'm too nervous to ask her out and what did your parents say? They were basically saying if you want to have relationships in life you got to get over that. Yeah just get over your anxieties. Right. What the fuck? I don't know I mean like what else could they say I don't know. No no no do you know why that's annoying? Because my mom couldn't. Well did it work did that advice work on your mom? They're totally Simplifying is saying, oh, if you have anxiety, just get over it.
And your mom is wrestling for decades with OCD and anxiety.
I mean, they didn't take it with the seriousness to which it's intended, which is, holy crap, you know, your mother has OCD. Maybe you have a little bit of that.
No, they threw you under the bus. They knew that there was this thing which may have a genetic component called anxiety, and you've got some of your mom's characteristics, and they're like, they didn't tell you about, They said it's your fault, just get over it. That's messed up.
Well, I don't think they said it's my fault. Yes, they did. No, they did because they say it's your job to get over it and if you don't, that's on you.

[1:42:16] Well, what kind of advice should they have given me? Oh, yes, your mother has an anxiety challenge.
So maybe it's genetic or maybe it's environmental or yes, we have a problem with anxiety.

[1:42:30] In this family. Right but that's not advice that's just you know stating facts.
Well it it's not lying to you because they lied to you about this core issue, and they said the way to solve it is you just get over it which they were utterly unable to do, with all of their they they told you at 14 to just get over it when your mother at 40, and 50 or wherever she is now has utterly failed to get over it and as you point out it's getting worse. So your mom at 50 or 40 can't just get over it in fact it's getting worse but you at 14 well you're just supposed to get over it kid.
So you're saying that that lie of omission was part of a big part of the problem.
A problem. Rather than trying to figure out what I'm saying, tell me what you're feeling. Yeah, you know, I definitely think that I feel that they should have told me that a lot earlier. I don't know why they didn't. Let me give you an example, all right? Let's say that in my family, heart disease and heart problems, are very common, right?

[1:43:58] And let's say my kid is complaining of chest pains and I say, oh, it's probably just indigestion, maybe change your diet, maybe exercise a little more, it'll be fine.
Is that fair? No, because you should have warned your kid that there's heart problems in the family. Yeah.
Your mother, I assume, I mean tell me if the word crippled is too strong and I don't want to be too strong, I don't want to have hyperbole in the conversation, but are there times maybe even during COVID when your mother was half crippled by this for years?
That's the only time I've ever seen her that way. That's why I didn't pick up on it more at first because up until COVID hit, like she just seemed like, you know, a more nervous than average person.
Right. And I assume your sister doesn't have any of these characteristics, is that fair to say or does she?
Maybe a little, but it'd be like relatively low compared to, you know, let's say me or my mom.
And do you know, are there any patterns to your mom's anxieties?
I mean, obviously it sounds like germ stuff, illness stuff, dangerous stuff.
Yeah, it's very health related.
I can't think of anything else that's beyond like health related or safety or whatever.
Right, okay.

[1:45:25] So your parents were utterly, they told you to just get over something that they were utterly unable to get over?
I mean it's not like they just said get over it, like we definitely had like a lot of talks about it.
They tried to like, you know, I had, we had a friend of the family who was like kind of like a ladies man type guy and they're like oh let's talk, you could talk to him about like maybe get some advice from him like they i feel like they tried a lot it wasn't just like oh just get over it no but they tried everything that had utterly and completely failed for them that's the problem i have, Did you follow?
Yeah, but I mean if they couldn't solve that and I mean obviously that the problem was that they should have just told me that, You know been more honest with me about the OCD thing, right? What do you mean more honest?
Or obviously they actively covered it up, The diagnosis or the issues or the problems it wasn't more honest that's I'm sorry, that's a weasel words, right.

[1:46:29] Yeah, they should have been honest with that. They should have been honest and they should have been honest and said, we don't know how to solve it.
Right. Because then... Yeah, my dad... No, go ahead. No, go ahead. It's your life.
You go ahead. Yeah. No, I guess my dad has told me like he doesn't know how to solve it.
He said, you know, he basically at this point thinks it's just like a part of her personality.
Okay, but apparently, your anxiety wasn't part of your personality, but a problem that was fairly solvable, right? You just have to do this, you have to do that.
We'll get this person in who's a ladies man to tell you blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?
Yeah. Well, why didn't your dad get someone in to talk to you?
Why didn't your dad get someone to call in or talk to your mom about her fears with COVID and get the facts?
Because, you know, apparently facts and they just solve anxiety, right?
So why didn't he do that? No, he knew that that wouldn't work. Right.
He do, that wouldn't work. So you cannot be rational about these kind of fears.
It's an irrational fear, you know, when you have OCD.
Okay, so you can't be, well, I don't know about you can't be rational, but let's just say, no, but let's just say that reason and evidence and tips and techniques or tricks or whatever don't work, right?
Right. And what did your parents say would work with you?

[1:47:56] I mean, they didn't claim to have an answer. They didn't say...
Oh, yes, they did. Oh, no, no, no, no. Okay, we could revise the past, but we can't pretend it wasn't said, right?
Of course they had an answer.
I mean, they talked to you about it. They said, and I know we're paraphrasing to some degree, they said, get over it.
They absolutely had, and we'll get the ladies man to come in and talk to you, and we have an answer to you being nervous to ask a girl out, and the answer is, we'll invite the family over for dinner and talk you up and they have tons of answers. Come on.
Don't gaslight me, bro. No, no, no, I understand that but that was before the problem was identified. Which problem? The anxiety with girls, like they didn't know that before. Let's say, you know, they thought everyone's nervous when you're asking out girls when you're 15 years old, so that didn't seem right to them at first. All right, do we really have to go back over this? Okay, so So you're saying to me that your parents never claimed to have any answers, right?
No, they did claim to have answers but I mean like they they couldn't have possible solutions It's not like I have the concrete definite answer. It's like you try things, Well, and Did your parents ever tell you that they're trying all of these things for the second time because they failed the first time?
Because they failed to cure your mother.

[1:49:21] Yeah, I really doubt they would have like seen the correlation between those two things because it's so different, you know, being afraid of germs versus, you know, being afraid of rejection.
What? You don't you think that's very similar? I'm sorry, anxiety is anxiety, isn't it?
Um, I mean, you have a rational and rational anxieties, right? I mean, you should have.
But I mean, an irrational fear of germs and an irrational fear of rejection, I mean, you're saying that they couldn't see any correlation between these two things?
Because did they say, your fears, while having a rational basis, are too strong for the situation?
Did they say something like that? Yeah, they did say that, yeah.
Right, okay, so isn't that exactly your mom?
Yes, Salmonella is dangerous, but your fears are too strong for the situation.
Yes, you don't want to snort laundry detergent, but your fears are too strong for the situation.
Yes, maybe you should have some concern about COVID, but not three days after the place has been empty.
So isn't it exactly the same? You have some legitimate fears of rejection, but your fears are too strong and they're paralyzing you. And your mom has concerns about health, but the fears are too strong and they're paralyzing her. Right.

Frustration over lack of effort and understanding

[1:50:46] I feel like I'm doing all the work and I don't I don't sure if you even care about this guy, I'm trying to I'm not I'm not trying to be mean or anything like that It's just I I try I don't care about people's lives more than they do, And I I feel like i'm trying to battle to make connections and you're just fogging and dematerializing. No, I I do see I do see the connection. Um, Like if if I let's say let's say let's say let's say this right let's say i'm 300 pounds, right?
Right. And I've tried the all-bread diet, right? And it's caused me to gain weight.
And my daughter is concerned about her weight and I say you should try eating nothing but bread. Am I being a good parent? No. Now if I say to her, hey man I've tried the all-bread diet but it just, I mean it's completely failed on me and I've gained weight, would that be important for her to know? Right, yes. So Did you see what I'm getting at here?
Right, yeah, they definitely should have told me about that.
Okay, I wanna make sure we're on the same page here. What should they have told you about?
They should have said to me very early on, or at least when they noticed the problem, they should have said, look, we need to tell you that your mother has OCD and that this is something that you might have similar problems with.
Okay, what did they do instead?

[1:52:11] They didn't tell me. They said, we know how to solve the problem of anxiety and we're going to tell you to do all the things that have failed to work on in the past.

[1:52:23] Right. So why would they do that? I don't know.
Yes, you do. I mean, it's cute when people try this with me after so many years. It really is great.
I'm sure you've heard these college shows where people say, I don't know, of course you don't. The typical answer is that they want you to fail.
But that doesn't seem like from all the other stuff they did, that that would be the case.
It's just like one thing that they did wrong.

[1:52:56] One thing that they did wrong? Yeah, well if you if you're if you're like, you know Talking to your son about how to ask girls out and inviting her over dinner and talking him up and doing all these things It sounds like pretty good. And then you don't mention two, but you don't mention one thing about your mother having a problem, You know, I doubt they definitely should have told me that, I you know, it's wild man. I mean you're a nice guy But you're absolutely impenetrable, because you keep repeating the same thing that's not what I'm saying. Okay. So, I don't know if you I mean if you want to continue we can continue but I'm gonna need you to listen. Right. So is my major issue that they didn't tell you about your mother's OCD? I thought so but maybe not. I've now said at least three times my major issue is that they gave you advice which had utterly failed to work on your mother, and in fact she got worse.
Right. That's the issue.
Okay, but I just don't understand. Are you with me there? I am with you there, I just don't understand what they should have done. If they didn't know how to solve that, what makes you think that they could solve this?

[1:54:13] I'm sorry, I don't understand. No, I understand. If I don't know how to do something, should I just lie and pretend I do?
Well, they never said they know how to solve it. Oh, okay.
I don't even know if we should continue here. Honestly, it's just, it's a complete dead end everywhere I turn.
Did they give you indications that they had good ideas on how to solve your problem?

[1:54:43] They would it wasn't that it was just like hey, let's try this. Let's try that and he never claimed to have the answers.

[1:54:53] Well, I mean at this point I honestly don't know what to say I mean if if If your parents tell you oh, yeah, I mean if you like this girl, we've got a solution which is you know Make it easier for you to ask her out. We'll invite the family over and it's going to make it easy We'll talk you up Oh, and yeah, you should just you should get over it or if you're having trouble approaching girls We'll get this guy in who's a real player and you know, we'll talk about this. We'll talk about that, Yeah, I Mean all of that is an indication that they have some idea how to solve the problem, So for instance, my neighbor calls me up and says I'm having terrible chest pains Do I say oh try this with a spoon or try that or maybe walk up and down the stairs or maybe?
Drink a glass of water or what do I say? I don't know how to solve that call the doctor call the ER get an ambulance Right.
Because I don't know how to solve that. They did tell me that though.
They said we don't know how, they fully admitted that they, you know, didn't know the answer.
But they were trying things.
Okay, but you have to pick, one of those two is not true. If I don't know the answer, like if somebody gave me a complex math question that I don't know how to solve, and I just write random fucking numbers down, am I trying to solve it? No, I'm pretending I can solve something that I can't solve.

[1:56:15] Right. I guess in that analogy it would be more like, hey, let's sit down, try to solve it, and then after many attempts you don't solve it.
No, it's not like that at all. Because your father and your mother had had at least 14 to 15 years to try and solve the problem of anxiety, and everything they had done had failed. So it's not the same at all. If I've been trying to solve a math problem for 15 years and utterly failed, how the fuck do I get to lecture other people on ways to solve that math problem?

Decades of Failed Attempts to Solve Anxiety

[1:56:54] They had, and your mother had had decades longer of experience trying to solve this and had failed. Your father had, after marriage, I don't know how long they were married, before you and your sister came along, but you know, 15 to 20 years he'd been trying to work on your mother's anxiety and everything they had done had failed, right?
So, if you've had decades of experience trying to solve a problem and failed, and you withhold that from someone you're telling you have some expertise in solving the problem and you're going to try this, that, the other, either they were trying things they'd tried before which had utterly failed, or they were trying things they hadn't tried before which, is incomprehensible. Because if they had something that they thought worked, they would have done it with your mother!

[1:57:43] So, really what they should have done is been more honest and said, been honest.
There we are, there we go. It's worse that they lied.
It wasn't that they weren't honest, they lied.
And look, I'm not saying this is conscious, I'm not saying that they're bad people, I'm just talking about a sort of transactional analysis. Maybe it's all unconscious, I don't know, it doesn't really matter.
But they claimed to be able to solve a problem or have some idea how to solve a problem that that for decades they had completely failed to solve.

[1:58:20] And, and they put a heavy, heavy burden on you, because they said, we're here to help you solve your problem when they'd been utterly unable to solve your mother's problem.
So they were saying you at 14 can solve this problem that we at 40 have completely failed to solve for 15 or 20 years.
Like if I had some crazy crossword puzzle that I'd been working on for 15 or 20 years and completely failed to solve, and then I gave it to my 14-year-old daughter and said, yeah, you can solve this.
Just look some stuff up and here's the internet and, right? Right.

[1:59:10] Or if I'm a mathematician working on the same problem for 20 years, can't solve it.
In fact, I'm further away from solving it than when I first started.
And I give it to my 14-year-old kid saying, oh yeah, try this, try that, without telling him that I've been working on this problem. Like, do you understand? This is weird.
Right. And again, I'm not trying to be mean to your parents or anything like that.
My concern here is not with your parents, but with you.
That you're carrying a burden called, you even said I chickened out.
I failed.
I'm deficient.

[1:59:51] Yep, that's how I felt. And do you know why you felt that?
Because your parents said, this is your problem to solve, we are happy to help.

Lack of Honesty and Emotional Connection

[2:00:05] I know that sounds like, well, what parents dare say we're happy to help, but it's not fair.
Right. It's not fair, because your parents utterly knew that there was an anxiety issue in the family that they'd utterly failed to solve for 20 years, And so they should have sat down and said, you know what, this is an issue, we have, your mom has this issue, we've not been able to solve it.
We don't know, everything that we could say to do, we're the last people you should come to.
I don't know how to solve this.
Because if we knew how to solve it, your mom wouldn't be so anxious.
Right. Now, maybe this is a spur that we can all sit down and try and figure out what we can do.
Maybe this is the kick in the pants that we needed.

[2:00:52] Great. Yeah, I definitely agree with you that they should have not called that out.
Then it wouldn't be your burden.
It wouldn't be your failure. It wouldn't be your burden.
And you know what else they would say, I think, in sort of the peaceful parenting scenario? They would say, oh man, we are so sorry.
We are so sorry that we failed to deal with your mom's anxiety to the point where it may have infected you.
Great. have needed this kick in the pants that you're too anxious to ask out a girl that you like because you grew up with an anxious mom and we never sat down and talked about it we never discussed it we never explained that this is not normal we never and we never tried to solve it before it passed on to you and now that it's negatively affecting you now only now are we gonna sit there and say let's deal with this. Right. Like we're so sorry.

[2:01:43] Yeah, this is not good right, But they have they even now said I, Can't believe that we put this on you as a problem to solve and we are just, Helpful advisors with answers to solve it or we'll try this and we'll try them We never told you the truth that we completely failed to solve it and we didn't deal with my dad, My dad expressed regret that he didn't tell me about the OCD thing earlier, Did he also express regret that he pretended to have an answer that he didn't, which put the onus on you to solve a problem that he was utterly unable to solve?
No, we didn't talk about that. And again, because I can't see you, I mean you could be knitting or playing a video game for all I know.
I mean it seems like this is pretty important stuff, but I'm not getting any sense of emotion from you.
I'm not accusing you, I'm just saying this is like my experience, right?
I mean, I'm working, like I'm literally working myself into a mental fever sweat trying to help you solve this problem, because it's not obvious, right?
Right, yeah, no, I appreciate it. And I'm just not like a very emotional person, you know, outwardly, so...
That's just my personality, I guess, just the same as the nervousness, you know?

[2:03:05] Wait, did I say... Are you getting from this that your nervousness is just your personality?
Didn't you say that there could be a genetic component to it?
Okay, okay, does that mean that that translates into this just your personality?
Did you hear me say that it's as far as I understand it it's eminently treatable?
Yeah you did say that, but you know it's also part of, I do believe it could be both, right?
But the two things are not the same thing at all.
The fact that something may have a genetic component has nothing to do with whether it's treatable or not.
There are some things that have genetic components that aren't treatable, right?
I mean, there's no pill you can take or therapy you can take to change your height, right?
Or your eye color.
Right. Right.
Right. So a genetic component has nothing to do with whether it's treatable or not.

[2:04:11] And if there's some genetic predisposition to maybe some level of anxiety, and maybe there is, maybe there isn't, I think a lot of things have some genetic component, but, that doesn't have a relationship to whether it's treatable or not.
No, I was relating it to being a part of your personality. So like, you know, just typically I don't show that much emotion, even if I am, like they'll say extremely happy or extremely upset about something. And do you think that that emotional distance from others is making you more dateable or less dateable? Yes, probably less dateable. What does a woman need to have a child with a man? What's the number one thing she needs? And it's not resources. What's the number one thing she needs from a man to have a baby with him? She needs to know that he's going to be there for her, not abandon her like an emotional connection.
She needs an emotional connection. She needs pair bonding.
Now is pair bonding intellectual or emotional?
Emotional. If a woman doesn't have much access to your feelings, will she ever feel safe enough to commit to you?
Right, that's true. Because if you're not passionately devoted to her, you could just drift off.
Yeah, I definitely hear you on that.

[2:05:36] So where are the emotions in you?

Hiding Feelings: Deception or Self-Protection?

[2:05:46] I don't know how to answer that question, you know. Do you? You said externally or outwardly, I think was the word you used.
Does that mean you feel strongly on the inside, but you don't show it on the outside?
Or you don't feel strongly on the inside? Yeah, exactly. Right, exactly. Yes.
So you feel strongly on the inside, but you don't show it on the outside.
Right. So why do you hide? This is a form of deception, right?
Yeah. It's a form of falsehood.
Now I'm not saying that you gotta wear your heart on your sleeve and you know cry in everyone's shoulder or anything like that, but if you feel strongly and you hide it from people you care about, it's a form of camouflage or deception. Right. So why are feelings, I mean I know the answer to this in your history I think, why are feelings difficult, dangerous, or unmanageable and need to be kept at a distance? I think maybe because you see it as a weakness because you know or for instance, let's say you're trying to ask out a girl and you appear outwardly nervous or something like that, then you don't want to display that to the girl.

[2:06:58] What value, and I'm not saying there's none, please understand this, I'm not trying to diss your mom in any way, shape, or form.
What does your father love about your mother?

[2:07:12] I mean, she is a very good person, very nurturing, like, especially with raising the kids, you know, me and my sister.
Let's see. She's a...
I'm trying to think of actual virtues and not just, you know, the same crap everyone falls into. I appreciate that. Yeah, I think that she's just like a very nurturing and very, like she really cares about us a lot. Like if there was, let's say, ever a situation when like I was being bullied or something like that, my mom would be like super upset about it and you know take actions into our own hands and uh whatever, but isn't oc doesn't ocd involve bullying to some degree that other people are responsible for managing your emotional state that you have to change your behavior because your mother's anxious, that you can't touch the laundry detergent and you have to be super careful about the salmonella and it doesn't don't you have to change your behavior because your mother's anxious Isn't there some bullying involved in that? Because it's not rational.
It's not rational, but she thinks it is.
Does she? Or...

[2:08:38] So she doesn't even identify it as a problem then, because she's just being rational.
It's hard to talk about, it's hard to talk about with her because it feels like her brain just shuts down when you try to have a rational conversation about one of her fears.
So like if you're trying to explain to her that if someone touched the door handle three days ago and they might have had COVID, that COVID's not there anymore.
And you try to have the conversation and you could tell her brain is just like not getting it.
So she rejects you if you try to reason with her?

[2:09:12] Yeah, she rejects evidence and facts and uh- No, no, no, no, no, you can't reject evidence and facts. You can only reject people.
When you try to talk to your mother, she chooses to distance herself because she's anxious rather than listen to and stay connected with you.

[2:09:33] Right. So where's the nurturing? is when you stay connected to people when it's uncomfortable, right?
You need the pair bonding when things aren't going well, when there's a distance, like that's what pair bonding is.
It's not a fair weather friend that we're close when it's convenient, when it feels great and we're all laughing and like you don't need pair bonding for that, you need pair bonding for when you're challenged and you want to run away, right?
A man doesn't need pair bonding when he's orgasming, he needs pair bonding when he's tempted by some other woman or tempted by workaholism or whatever it is, right?
So the pair bonding with your mom is like, your mom is like, oh my gosh, I have to stay in this conversation because I care about my son and that's what pair bonding is for.
But if she just dumps you and her husband and your sister and whoever, when you make her uncomfortable, She just distances and cuts off the bond.
Where's the nurturing?

[2:10:37] Right, no, and I hate to take away her free will in those situations, but it's like literally a part of her brain just shuts down when you try to talk about something that she has extreme anxiety over.

Challenging the idea of taking away free will

[2:11:04] Oh Sorry about that. So your argument is that you don't want to take away her free will and you do that by taking away her free will yeah, well it does seem like I, Yeah, I don't want to do air agency or whatever but it does seem like she's just not capable of it in that moment, Well every moment, right How so every moment because this is a consistent problem that's getting worse, right, Yeah, but I mean, like 99% of the time, she's fine. It's just in those like, when she has those, like, fears in her mind, that it's like she Oh, come on, man. Oh, please stop. Stop. Just stop. Yeah. Are you saying 99% of the time with COVID she was fine? Oh, no, not during COVID. But I'm saying the rest of the time. You're talking about like, maybe a year or two that she was just like, you know, having major problems. Okay, so 99% of at the time when she's, I mean, have you ever, have you ever done laundry for a large family?
No. Have you ever prepared food for a large family? Right.
So she's concerned about laundry. She's concerned about food.
Apparently that just doesn't happen much at large families.
Like you don't deal with that, that's not a thing.
No, I'm not with her when she's doing laundry, you know, like when I'm spending time with her, it feels like 99% of the time.

[2:12:32] And, do you know why 99% of the time she seems fine when she's with you? I don't know. I know!
Because you don't bring up this stuff!
Right. Yeah, no problem!
Yeah. And is that something that I should be bringing up? I mean, why would I, you know, if she, if that gives her so much anxiety, why am I gonna start talking about COVID?
Is that, sorry, that's a genuine, I wasn't sure if that was rhetorical or not.
No, it's a genuine question.
I mean, should I bring up topics that bring someone a lot of fear?
Well it's certainly not your job to fix your mom.
Right. My issue is not that your mom has OCD, although as I understand it's eminently treatable.
My issue is not that your mom has OCD.

[2:13:43] My issue is that your mom breaks the pair bond when OCD comes up and then tells you that she knows how to manage anxiety and you should just do this or that or the other with girls.
And the fact that she chose, To break the pair bond when something uncomfortable came up means that it's very hard for you to trust females.
Do you follow?
Yeah, I do. Your mother chose OCD over you and your happiness and your security and your connection and your bond and your trust.
Fact, empirically. I'm not trying to throw her under the bus, I'm just telling you what happened based upon what you've told me, and if there's anything incorrect, please correct me.

[2:14:48] Your mother chose to threaten you with ostracism and to withdraw from you emotionally, Whenever she got uncomfortable which has become increasingly so over the years, And she is choosing, To ostracize you and to reject you rather than confront her fears and deal with them, Right and your father goes along with it Your father enables and supports this.

The father's role in supporting the mother's behavior

[2:15:23] He's supporting it by, are you saying because he didn't tell me earlier, or because he doesn't talk to my mom about those topics?
I'm not sure why we'd have to limit it to some binary proposition.
No, tell me, how does your father support this behavior in your mother?
Well, my dad is like, tries to be a very logic and reason based person.
So like, it's kind of funny, because I mean, this is gonna, you know, go back to what you were saying earlier about, you know, trying stuff that doesn't work over and over again.
But like, to this day, he tries to reason with her about, you know, these type of things when she has an irrational fear.
Oh, so your father does it, but you so your mom can handle it when your dad does it?
Oh, no, I mean, like, she, she shuts down.
Like you could just see like there's like this blankness in her eyes when you try to talk to her about it when When either me or my dad like I'm not scared to talk to my mom about this kind of stuff But I've just gotten to the point where it's like, you know, why even bother trying anymore? It's not gonna work, All right.

[2:16:25] So you understand that this gives you a difficult relationships a difficult relationship with emotions, Because you can't express the frustration and anger you feel towards your mother at this, Issue and its Impact on the family Yeah, I mean I've told her I'm extremely frustrated by it by it and that she's being irrational But, you know, I don't know what else I could do at that point.
What do you mean, what else you can do? You know, I can't solve the problem.
I tell her the problem, but I'm not going to be able to solve it.
Again, I'm not sure what you... So you feel helpless?
I mean for that particular issue, yeah, Right, What you're not helpless Right, you never helpless nobody's ever helpless. I mean unless you're I guess thrown in a dungeon or something, right?

[2:17:38] In what way are you not helpless if somebody doesn't listen to reason and and cuts their pair bond with you whenever you, quote, displease them what are your options?

Overwhelmed by Choices, Seeking Guidance

[2:17:59] I mean, there's there's so many options. I'm just I'm not sure what I should be doing.

Exploring Options for Dealing with a Loved One's Anxiety

[2:18:11] Okay, so hang on. So what are the options?
Um, I mean, this is obviously the most extreme is like, okay, I'm not gonna, you know, spend time with you if you're not going to talk about this. And then you just remove them from from your life. But you know, this is not like that huge of a problem that I would ever do do that and you could suggest different things.
You'd be like, hey, why don't you try therapy? Again, why don't you try this?
Why don't you try that? You could, I don't know.
Well, I mean, you could look up the facts about effective treatment for OCD, and you could say you got better in the past, you need to go back.
Right, well, to be honest, she is getting better again since COVID hit because it was just bad.
It was really bad when it was in the media nonstop. And I would even give her suggestions, like, just please turn off the news. Like, this is just not good for your mental health.
But she would not do it.
But now that like, it's kind of out of the news cycle, now she's so much better than she was like a year ago.
Which means what? It means the next time that there's some news cycle that causes her anxiety, she's right back where she started. Right.
So there's not a solution?
Right. Tell me something!

[2:19:31] So she should get treatment now, you're saying? This is your life, man, what are you putting it all on me?
You're saying this, you're saying that, what do you say?
No, I think she should. Where's your pair bonding?
Your mother is trapped under something she clearly is not able to manage or is choosing not to manage at the moment.
The moment would your mother be happier if this were treated? Oh yeah of course.
So why don't you stand in love for your mother and get her to treatment? Oh well I can't control that. So? You make your case as strongly as possible. This needs to be dealt with. I don't want this passing to my kids. And it's a little embarrassing bringing a girl home.

[2:20:20] Yeah.
Do you, I mean, ah, I'm so sorry, do you know what it means to truly, truly, truly love, someone? It means you don't defer to their worst instincts.
Are people 150% standing up in true love for your mother's better nature and refusing to let her get dragged down by this problem, which I believe, I'm not an expert, please do your own research, I believe is quite solvable.
Right, but I mean, the fact that she did try treatment and it didn't work, so.
No, you said she, no, no, no.
You said she got better. You can change your story, but don't pretend you didn't say it.
You said she did treatment, she got better, and then COVID made her worse.
I don't know when she did the treatment relative to COVID, but you said she did some treatment and she did improve.
Right, no, what I meant by that is that like, obviously the treatment wasn't a long-term effective solution. And it just, you know, yeah, she got, I don't even know if that's what made her better.
I don't really know the whole history.
Okay, I understand that, I understand that.
Yeah. Okay, did your parents just suggest one thing when you have your anxiety with women?
No. No, they said try this, try that, try the other. Okay, how many things has your mother tried?

Confronting the Resistance to Treatment and Seeking Solutions

[2:21:42] I actually don't know. Well, you only know of one, right? Yeah, so far I only know of one.
I could ask my dad more questions about it and, you know, get more answers.
What decade is your mom in, is she in her 50s, 60s? Yeah, 50s.
She's worried about, she's got some low-grade paranoia or anxiety about health, right? Yeah.
Question, do you think as she ages, this is gonna get better or worse, as she starts to get the inevitable ailments associated with aging?
So is it gonna be easier for her to deal with this in the future?
You know what though, at the same time, none of her fears are based in reality, so I'm not necessarily sure it's gonna get worse.
No, no, no, no, what do you mean none of her fears are based in reality?
Are you saying there's no such thing as Salmonella or that COVID is never dangerous to anyone?
No, but she's never, it wasn't like she got Salmonella and then she got super worried about it.
Oh, come on, look, bro, if we're gonna operate at this level, I have no idea what we're doing.
We just had this whole conversation, we had this whole conversation, that these are legitimate anxieties pushed to extremes.

[2:23:11] Remember, you're legitimately afraid of rejection by girls, but it's pushed to an extreme, right? Right.
And that, yes, there is such a thing as food-borne bacteria that can be dangerous.
It just goes to an extreme, right?
Right. So now you're saying none of her fears are based, like, you're just changing your story.
Because you don't want to confront your mom.
It's not based on her personal experiences, is what I meant.
For instance, she actually got...
No, I am not slicing and dicing this way. Are you saying, are you literally going to tell me, because I won't continue the conversation if you do, because you're too smart for that, and this is an insult to us both. Are you going to try and tell me that your mother's anxieties, are going to be lower when she experiences health problems herself directly.

[2:24:01] Than when they're just abstract things that she's concerned about in general?
I'm not saying it's lower. I'm not saying it's lower, no. No, it's going to be higher.
There. Because if she's worried about abstract health things, she's going to be way more worried when they're actually real and in her own body.
No, but when she had COVID, she wasn't worried. That's the crazy thing. It was like she was way more worried about getting it than actually having it.
Right, because once she had it, it didn't turn out to be that bad, I assume.
Right. Yeah, she was like, you know, it was like a mild cold.
Right. And of course, of course, the anticipation is worse. The whole point of anxiety is that anticipation is worse than the thing itself. We suffer more in the expectation than in the issue, mostly. So is your mother's anxiety about health issues when she is afraid, like you get aches and pains as you get older, right? And is your mother's anxiety going to be higher or lower when these are health issues that could manifest, might be there, but are going to affect her directly or when it's it's theoretical salmonella? Higher when it's actually happening. I think so. Right.

[2:25:13] I think so. So your entire process with your mother is defer to her craziness and let her get worse.
And then you wonder why you're nervous of women? Yeah, you understand that we all have crazy stuff, right we all have crazy stuff everyone right and you know what your partner does, Pushes back on the crazy stuff and doesn't accept the crazy stuff and make sure you deal with the crazy stuff. That's what love is Because crazy stuff is like a predator, and you wouldn't sit there and watch a loved one get taken down by a predator when you could lift them into the bus, right?

[2:26:06] To be a servant to a woman's crazy, which is kind of what you are with your mom, a slave to your woman's crazy, does that make you wanna get married?
Because your wife's gonna be crazy a little bit here and there and so are you.
And if your whole training is, well, you just enable and support that craziness and let it get worse, my God, of course you're single.
That's why I'm probably very unattractive to girls that have this sort of like nervousness in them.
Well, or God forbid you're incredibly attractive to girls who have this kind of nervousness because you're gonna support and promote it throughout the course Of their life and get eaten alive slowly. No, I I could never do it. Trust me. Well, you're not doing it, Great, you're not doing it, but you're not in the game at all, right?
Because you have not got the principle that you stand for saying no matter what, You stand for truth no matter what you stand for reality no matter what I don't care if people get ill I mean, you're talking to me. You think I get that upset if people get mad at me for telling the truth?
I couldn't even do this gig. I would have folded 20 years ago.
Oh, 40 years ago if it wasn't like people were totally happy when I was telling the truth when I was 17 either.
Right. So you got a show here with me where it's like, yeah, you stand for the truth.

Destructive burden of irrationality in family dynamics.

[2:27:25] And the truth is, your mom's got some irrational stuff that's really destructive, and it is destructive because it threatens the pair bond, and it's destructive because she put the burden, on you to solve something she's utterly unable to solve, which puts a heavy weight on a kid and lies about her competence. And your father did the same thing.
So that's, look, I'm sure you've got a great family as a whole, and I'm not, you know, This is nothing negative as a whole. I'm just saying in this particular issue, this is pretty effed up.
Yeah, I agree. And you know, my dad definitely definitely regrets not telling me earlier because he told me that.
Okay, I'm not going back to this thing where suddenly your dad's absolved because he told you your mom has OCD. That's not my issue. Okay, so I know that you're... Listen, come on, man, let's just be honest. How afraid are you of confronting your mother on this and your parents as a whole.
Oh, I've confronted, on the OCD issue of my mom, I've confronted her.
I've talked to her and said, like, you know, No, you haven't.
No, no, you've begged and you've made requests.
That's not confronting.
Oh, please, mom. No, it's not rational. No, you should, you should drop this.
No, the evidence doesn't support it. No, no, that's not, that's not confronting.

[2:28:44] But what's confronting it?
Well, confronting is, this is really costing me. You need to solve this.
You have to, like this is not an option anymore, you have to solve this.
You have to go and get treatment, you have to deal with this.
Not please, please, please, you must. Because you've got to stand up to crazy in women so that you can feel confident with women in your life? Yeah. Do you see what I mean? Yeah, I agree. How can you be strong, with women that you might want to go out with if you're weak with your mom?
It's funny that you're calling me weak, because I always felt like I was, you know, up until you said what you said, I felt like I was strong about it, because I refused to, you know, lie to her about it, or, you know, comfort her on this.
I would always be like, no, this is irrational, these are the facts, and try to explain it as well as I could.
No, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you what strength is, my friend.
Sorry to be annoying. I really apologize. I know this comes across all kinds of irritating, and I apologize for that, but I'm just going to be straight with you.
Yeah. Strength is when the problem is fucking solved.

[2:30:11] Okay. A good salesman is not someone who talks to a lot of customers. What is a good salesman? Someone who closes the deal. Right. When the signature is on the line and the money's in the bank account, that's a good salesman, right? Because the money's there. So you think that strength is talking to people in circles while nothing ever gets solved and you never get anywhere, right?

Taking radical self-ownership in solving personal issues.

[2:30:37] No, of course not. Well, no, but that has been to some degree your definition of strength.
No, my definition of strength is not to give someone comforting lies versus the harsh truth, is what I was trying to say. Strength is when the problem is solved.
I couldn't solve politics anymore. I'm not in the relationship.
I'm not saying about you and your mom, I'm just saying my own personal experience, right?
I couldn't solve corruption in business, I'm out of the business world.
I couldn't solve things with my family of origin, I'm out of that.
I can solve things with people in my life, so, great!

[2:31:20] The problem must be solved because I believe the problem is costing you relationships.
The problem must be solved. You are in 100% control of solving this problem.
Me personally?
That's surprising to hear you say that because you always say take radical self-ownership.
So wouldn't it be my mom to solve it? I mean.
No, you are 100%. Okay, I'm not gonna talk about you because it's too personal.
Let me talk about me, all right? Okay.

[2:32:01] Am I 100% responsible for solving the effect of my mom's craziness in my life?
Yes. Right. Well, so what do I do? I say to my mom, you need to do X, you need to do Y, you need to do Z.
Do I have any control over whether she actually does those things?
No. I do not. What effect does that have on whether my mom's craziness is in my life?
I have 100% control over whether my mom's craziness is in my life, right?
Right. Do you see what I mean? Sort of.
I mean, you did say that the success is defined as actually solving the problem.
My mom's craziness in my life?
No. Solved! Baby! 100%! Right, but you didn't solve her craziness.
I'm sorry? No, but you didn't solve her craziness. But I can solve her craziness.
No, of course not. But that's kind of how I felt about my mom's OCD, is like kind of an unsolvable problem.

[2:33:08] Let's go back to me. Can I solve my mom's craziness? No. Can I solve the effect of my mom's craziness on my life?
Yes. So I am 100% responsible for my mom's craziness being in my life?
Right. You follow? No, I agree with that part.
So my conversation with my mother was basically, hey, you know what, your craziness is not going to have any effect on my life going forward.
That can happen one of two ways, you stop being crazy or you stop being in my life.

[2:33:44] I hope you'll choose not being crazy, I really do, I'll support you 150% on that.
But if you choose you're crazy over my happiness, I'm not going to pretend we love each other.
Again I'm just talking about me, I mean your mom's not crazy like my mom, so I'm not, right?
I'm not putting them in the same category or anything, I'm just talking about the principles.

The importance of the pair bond and judging family dynamics.

[2:34:09] My mother chose her delusions over my needs and happiness, which means there was no pair bond.
You follow? Yeah, I do. I mean, if there's no pair bond, I judge her not as my mother, because what defines the mother is the pair bond.
You follow?
If there's no pair bond, I judge my mother as a person, not as a mother, because the mother is defined by the pair bond.

[2:34:45] Great. Does it make sense? Yeah, I mean. Hang on, there's one more.
Hang on. Imagine some guy comes into your life and he says, I'm a cousin, right?
So you're gonna afford him particular, you know, benefits, right?
You're gonna go meet with him, going to spend time with him, you know, if he needs to borrow money you'll be more likely to lend it to him because he's your cousin, right?
Right. Because, you know, blood is thicker than water family, you do for family, right?
Does that make sense? Yes.
Now let's say after you lend him $5,000 and he hasn't paid you back and you've paid for a whole bunch of dinners and you've spent lots of money, time and effort and resources because this guy's your cousin, you find irrefutable proof that he's not in fact your cousin, just some guy. Yeah. What would you do? Well, it's a different matter, right? Yeah. It's a different matter. So for my mother, I was like, if we have a pair bond, I will judge you as family, as a mother. Now, the way I know whether we have a pair bond is I ask for something that's reasonable, and if you have issues with it, you overcome those issues because we have a pair bond.

[2:36:03] Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. Because that's what the pair bond is, is overcoming difficulties to maintain the connection. So with my mother, I said, you claim special privileges because you're my mother, right? Because if she was just some woman, I wouldn't have anything to do with her because she's crazy, right? So I said, you claim special privileges because you're my mother, okay? So you want me to judge you in the category of mother, and the category of mother means pair bond, which means overcoming bad feelings to maintain the bond, especially when I ask for something reasonable and legitimate, right?

[2:36:49] My mother is consumed by hatred for X, doesn't really matter what X is, but and I said I'm tired, I really don't want to talk about X all the time. I'd like to, have other topics that we could talk about, maybe be some of the stuff in my in my life or whatever, right?
So I asked my mother, this is just one of the couple of conversations I had with her about stuff.
So I asked my mother, could we please not talk about X and your hatred for X all the time, every time?
And this is not an exaggeration, like it was every time, all the time.
I would like to expand to other topics because I don't really wanna talk about this every time.
So I asked, and now, if we have a pair bond somebody asks for something reasonable, that's what love is, right? You're then going to say, well, geez, you know, if you're asking for something, obviously it's reasonable, and I love you, so I will work to provide it, right? Right.

Holding a friend vs holding a baby

[2:37:47] I mean, if you had a friend who was over who got stinking drunk and kept crying out in the middle of the night for you to come and hold them and give them hugs because they were having the the spins, what would you do?
Um, I don't know. Probably not, right? Should I hold them? Yeah.
Be like, dude, you got the spins, that's tough, maybe don't drink so much next time, right?
Right. Yeah, okay. But if it's your baby, that's a different matter.
You'll get up and go take care of your baby, right? I gotcha, right.
So if family wants to be considered family, beautiful, absolutely.
But they better show a pair bond.
And a parent-born means that they will listen to and work to provide your legitimate requests, right? Right.
So, your mother wants to be judged as a mother, which I think is beautiful.
She did give birth to you.
My mother wanted to get special privileges because of the category called mother, and that's fine.
But with privileges comes responsibilities, right? I mean, I've felt this my whole life.
If I have a good brain and I'm good at explaining this stuff, I have a responsibility to do so, right?
Right. So, your mother, my mother, everybody's mother, father, they claim privilege is based upon family. Okay, great.

[2:39:14] My mother wanted to be treated as a mother, so then she needed to be pair-bonded with me.
In the same way, if your cousin says, lend me $5,000 because I'm your cousin, he better be your cousin, otherwise he's just ripping you off, right?
Right, right. So obviously giving birth to someone is not a moral action.
I mean there are female serial killers who gave birth and giving birth is not a moral action. What makes it good is the pair bond. And the pair bond is you and me no matter what.
No matter my fears, no matter what happens, no matter this, that, the other.
Right? I mean this is, that's the pair bond and that's what marriages is in better and in worse in sickness and in health till death do us part.

[2:40:01] So, for my mother, I'm like, okay, hey, I'll give you special privileges, you will absolutely get special consideration.
But we better have a special relationship.
But if you attack me for legitimate requests, for reasonable requests, if you attack or reject or ostracize or get all cold on me, which is manipulation, right?
Your mom getting all cold on you, that's just manipulation.
Right, you think that's a- It's not a seizure, right?
No, but you're saying she can consciously control that?
I can't possibly might read your mom. But it's not a seizure, right?
No, it's not a seizure. Okay.
Does your mother have any capacity to control emotional distance when she's upset.
Does she have any capacity to say, this is really upsetting to me, but I know it's important to you, so please tell me more?
Well, if she doesn't have any capacity to do that, then there's no pair bond.

[2:41:17] And then you judge her as a person, not as somebody who's pair bonded, at least logically, You want your logic, you want your rationality, right?

[2:41:29] Right. You treat me well because of the, you treat me, you give me special privileges because of the pair bond, and the pair bond I can sever and destroy anytime I'm upset.
Anytime I'm uncomfortable, anytime you say something I don't like, I will completely destroy the pair bond.
And it's like, okay, well then you also destroy your special privileges, and I judge you just as a person then.
Because if the pair bond can be destroyed at any time, do you feel safe getting married?

[2:42:01] No. Isn't that the big MGTOW family court stuff that is really terrifying is, well, what if the woman just wakes up one day and she just doesn't have a pair bond? What if the pair bond is optional? What if the pair bond is not something you have to will and choose and reinforce and it's a standard you live by? What if it's just a whim and if the woman's upset she could just break the pair bond and then when I please her she's happy with me again? That's not a pair bond! Right. That would be like me only pursuing philosophy when it felt good. Do you Do you think, just out of curiosity, do you think there've been times where I pursued philosophy when it felt horrible?
Oh yeah. Of course. But that's called commitment, right? Commitment is when things are shitty. Right.
Pair bonding is for when people are pissing you off. Pair bonding is when people are pushing your buttons.
Pair bonding is when people are annoying the hell out of you.
Do you think I'm committed to this conversation?
Yeah. Do you think I've been annoyed at times? Yeah.
No. That's commitment, brave baby. That's commitment, my brother. Yeah, right. Yeah.

[2:43:08] I hear you. Your mother should be saying to you, tell me more. Tell me about the effect this has had on your life. Tell me how difficult it's been for you. Tell me how frustrating it is. Tell me more. Tell me more. Tell me more. Right. Well, one thing I've never done One is, it should be obvious to her, of course, is say like, hey, you know, this is how it's affecting me.
You know, I always try to, you know, make it like I'm trying to help her.
I talk to her. Right.
Yeah, you're trying to take a father role rather than a child role, but you are in fact your child and it has had a big effect on you.
The fact that your parents put the burden of solving this problem they couldn't solve on you is very unfair.
The fact that your mother threatens the pair bond every time you bring this up is very unfair.
Right. And it's frustrating and it's upsetting.

[2:44:05] And don't, I mean, you absolutely know, you know that this stuff being unconscious in your mind has left you fearful of women.
Look, we all fear rejection from women. That's the male standard. And women feel rejection from men.
We think women have it so easy. No, because if you're a higher quality woman, you just want a higher quality man, which means you're fearful of being rejected by the higher quality man.
It's like every model feels ugly at times because their standards for beauty are so high.
But the reason that we overcome our fear of rejection is to gain lifelong companionship and pair bonding, right? No, I don't know if mm-hmm is like, do you agree or are you just hearing what I'm saying? The prize for overcoming rejection is lifelong pair bonding, right?
Right? Right. Where it's you no matter what, you can say whatever you need, you don't tiptoe around the person, you're not bullied by rejection, right?
You have an honest, connected, true, vivid, open, committed relationship.

[2:45:17] It doesn't matter if you get sick, it doesn't matter if you get arrested, I mean, not like it doesn't matter, but it won't kill the pair bond, do you follow what I mean?
Right, yes. It's the pair bond.
So the reason we overcome our fear of rejection is so we can get the pair bond, which means we'll never be rejected again. Do you follow? I will never reject my wife.
She will never reject me. It doesn't mean we don't disagree.
It doesn't mean we don't, right? But we're bonded. I will never reject my daughter.
Do you follow? Yes, I do. Okay.
So the reason we overcome our fear of women is on the other side of that fear of women, is never being rejected again.
But you don't have that.
Because your mother rejects you all the time.

[2:46:12] And your father supports that. And your father is rejected by your mother all the time because she chooses her craziness over listening.
So, for you, why would you bother overcoming your fear of rejection of women, because you'll just be perpetually rejected for the rest of your life when the woman is displeased?
I understand. Man, you were a tough nut to crack, I'll tell you that, straight up, brother.
In what way? Well, come on, tell me this isn't that incredible stuff I'm pushing out here.
No, it is. You know, I'm trying to digest and internalize it.
No, you're trying to avoid feeling it.

[2:46:57] You're trying to intellect it. You're trying to intellectually and analyze it. Yeah, that's what I do. Yeah. Yeah, I get it.

[2:47:04] Yeah, because passion hasn't helped you because passion drives people away if you were really passionate about helping your mom, And you put it all on the line Your great fear is your mom would choose her craziness even over a relationship with you. Is that right?
If you say mom, you've got to get this fixed or i'm out of here I'm, not saying you should or shouldn't right? I don't know, But if you did say to your mom mom, you got to get this fixed because I can't stand this anymore.

Rejection and frustration over choosing craziness over reason

[2:47:27] I can't stand constantly feeling rejected every time I bring up the truth.
I can't stand the fact that you choose this crazy stuff over the rational, empirical, logical, sensible, caring arguments that come from those around you in your life.
I can't stand that you keep choosing your craziness over me.
Yeah. It's killing me. Now, if you were to say that, and you were to say, mom, I need you to deal with this, or I'm out of here, isn't the great fear, and tell me if I'm wrong, isn't the great fear she'd say, bye?
Yeah, I did have a giant argument with my mom when I got COVID actually, because I followed all the guidelines, what was it, like quarantine for 10 days and whatever.
And then when my quarantine was done, I wanted to go over to see my mom for some reason.
And she's like, ah, maybe we should just wait another couple of days.
And I just like had gigantic argument with her where I just like confront her, like, this is crazy.
Like you cannot live your life in fear like this.
And I feel like I was telling her the truth as much as possible.
And she did, to her credit, eventually that day meet up with me.
So I feel like I'm not a total pussy about all this.

[2:48:35] What so you made her sane for a day? This is your big victory, Yeah, no, that's what that's why I always I felt like this is just like an unsolvable problem That's is like just part of her personality. No, so when you say no when you say it's an unsolvable problem You're saying that if you push it to the line and you say you got to choose one the crazy or me, You can't get both, That she's gonna choose crazy. That's your consent, right?
No, because she did choose me that time I did that, you know, when I said, look, I don't have COVID anymore, the 10-day quarantine's done. Right, but she didn't solve the problem.
Right. So if you say, you gotta solve this problem, you gotta choose the crazy or me, what do.

[2:49:20] You think she'd choose? No, she would definitely go do something about it, if I put it to that degree, like there's no way she would say, oh, I'm gonna choose crazy.
So why haven't you done it?
Because she'd be happier if she wasn't anxious this way, right?
Yeah, no, definitely. So why have, like, where's your pair bond that you gotta do the uncomfortable thing to help the other person?
Yeah, I mean, I guess I figured since she's tried solving in the past and it came back, I figured, okay, this is just something that she's gonna have to deal with.
Like, everyone has their problems. That's how I looked at it.
But that's not what you were doing when you were yelling at her about being sick from COVID.
Um, no, I know that I mean, obviously, okay, so let's not give you a let's not do all of this quote reasonable stuff about how she's got to live with it because you sure as hell fought like tooth and nail about the COVID thing, right?
Yeah, I did. Okay, so you fought tooth and nail with the COVID thing.
And you just you got to fight for what's best in your mom.
I mean, I think that's isn't that pair bonding? You stand up for what's best and you don't let people get pulled down by the predators of craziness.
Right? Right.

[2:50:34] I mean, that's family to me, is you stand for what's best in each other and you don't let them get taken down by their worst natures. Right.
You gotta, it's like this family just needs to learn how to love or something. I don't know what it is, but that's what love is, isn't it?
Yeah, I mean, honestly, like I assumed that since, you brought up a good point that you said, look, just because COVID's over doesn't mean the next crazy crisis is going to throw her back into the spiral, but she's been doing so much better lately.
You know, I kind of like put it out of my head lately.
So yeah, I mean, you gotta, maybe it's better to try to tackle it now before the next thing comes and then she's just totally rational. It's not about, oh man, okay, the last thing I'll say, because it's been a long call. Okay, it's not about your mother. This has nothing to do with your mother.
Right. I mean, you're 30 years old. Where's your wife? Where's your kids? Where's your family?
Where's your girlfriend?
Right. It's not about your mom.
It's about your future wife. Right. Yeah, definitely. It's about your future wife.

[2:51:44] Are you going to be a slave to women's crazy and rejection, because you won't confront your mom in the way that solves the problem?
Then you won't be able to overcome your anxiety about asking women out because there won't be, a no rejection. Like, why was it worth pursuing my wife? Because now I've had 21 years with her, we've never rejected each other, we get hopefully another 30, no rejection. Half-century, no rejection. Full acceptance, full love. Never any concern she's gonna walk out, never any concern I'm gonna walk out. 150% committed, no rejection. Do you know what an incredible thing that is? Yeah. That's worth the relationships I had before that didn't work out. It's worth it a million fold.

[2:52:34] But you got to stop deferring to female irrationality.
Otherwise, you're just going to find... Otherwise, deep down, you know, you're just going to find another woman like your mom.
That's probably not going to be great.
I think that, no, there's more of a chance of just being alone because I would never do that.
Right. Okay. So that's not good either, right?
Right. Exactly. That's letting literally your mom's craziness cut your balls off.
Like, you don't get to be a father, you don't get to be a husband, you don't get to be a, lover, you don't get passion, you don't get pair bonding.
Why? Because your mom won't go to get the help she can get?
That's not it. And here's the funny thing is that you say, well, my mom's got these, you know, these irrational beliefs and you're like, well, I would rather give up being a father myself and having a family and a pair bond because I don't want to confront my mom.
But you know, my mom has these crazy irrational beliefs.
It's like, you know, that's you, right?
In fact, your mom's beliefs are way saner. It's you and your dad and your sister, the crazy ones.
Why is my sister crazy? Because she's not doing it either. Oh, yeah.
And now she's got grandma around her kids. Oh, you're gonna wipe your mouth.
Oh, oh, don't touch that. Oh, wash your hands. Yeah.

[2:54:00] I mean, your mom's crazy, didn't prevent her from becoming a mom, but your lack of bonding and your deferring to crazy is preventing you even from getting a family!
And you think she's the crazy one? Do you know what I mean?
Sorry, I didn't...
Right. I mean, you've given up everything that's worth anything in this life, because you don't want to confront your mom. I mean, that's not a good deal, is it? You're not going to sit back, let's say you're completely alone at 80, saying, well, I'm sure glad I never confronted my mom, who's been dead for a half-century now, or dead for 40 years or 30 years or whatever.
I'm sure glad I gave up my family and spent the whole life alone, increasingly depressed.
I'm sure glad I never confronted my mom and solved that problem. Oof, that was great.
I'm glad that my mom, dead for 30 years, didn't go through any discomfort and solve that problem.
What a great deal that was. I really, boy, am I a great trader." Right. Wow.

[2:55:05] If she's your mom, she's pair-bonded with you, she cares about you, she will choose you over the crazy.
And if she doesn't, if she chooses the crazy over you, you'd be crazy to choose her over your future! Right.

The Impact of Mother's Behavior on Relationships

[2:55:36] Yeah, I guess I always just looked at it as one problem that she had with a relatively good mother compared to most mothers.
She never hit me, never verbally abused me. You look at the score, I can't remember what it was called, the score of one to ten, I'd be a zero on that scale, always taken care of.
So it never occurred to me that that was a selfish thing or a terrible thing to do.
Of course, I mean, I want to respect the good that your mother has done, absolutely.
But there's a reason you're still single. Right, right.
And your mother, in my view, I can't prove anything, but in my view, your mother bullies and manipulates you, so that she doesn't have to confront her craziness.
Right, so you're saying like she has- And I think that's incredibly unfair and I think that emasculates you, and I think that makes you hard to date.
It also means that your passions are threatened by the cutting of the pair bonding, which means it's hard for you to show any feeling, which means it's hard for someone to connect with you, which means it's hard for someone to date you.

[2:56:54] And I think the cost, if she knew the cost, right, she's just acting in the moment to avoid anxiety, but if she knew the cost to you, and you need to be honest with the cost, I think, If she knew the cost to you, I'm sure she'd do the right thing.
But you've got to get passionate and tell her what's going on, and your dad.
And then maybe there is a how dare you tell me how to solve my anxiety when you guys can't solve your own.
How dare you put that load on me?
Come on. How dare you hide from me the fact that mom has anxiety issues?
When I say I have anxiety issues, and you're like, well, we've got a friend to help you. We know what to do.
Come on. Yeah. And mom, how dare you cut me off emotionally when I do something you dislike? How dare you?
And how dare you do that and then claim privileges as a mother?
Privileges as a mother means you listen to your kids. I don't care how much it hurts.
Do you think everything my daughter has ever told me has been wonderful and sweetness and light and perfect?
Do you not think that she knows me well enough to give me some well-aimed criticisms from time to time?
Absolutely. And do you know what I say? Right.
Tell me more. Right. Do you think I'm just freeze her out?
Do you know how brutal that would be? How bullying that would be? How ugly that would be? To freeze, someone who loves you out from giving you any feedback? That's pathetic!

[2:58:13] Right. And destructive. Because it says, if you disagree with me, you're dead to me in that moment.

[2:58:26] Okay, so you can only be with someone if you agree with everything they say and never upset them.
Good luck pair bonding, kid.
Well to be fair, I do upset her when I do that and she doesn't threaten the pair bond or anything like that, she just kind of freezes out.
That's exactly what I'm saying. That is exactly what I'm saying about threatening the pair bond.
She freezes you out.
In other words, she treats you like you're a stranger. It's like, okay, well if you're a stranger, I'll treat you as a stranger and I'll judge you as a stranger.
Which means I'll judge you only for your moral qualities, not for the pair bonding, not for the history, not as a mother. If you're gonna cut me off like I'm some stranger on the bus who's saying something crazy, if you're just gonna freeze me out, okay fine, then I will not judge you as a mother, I will judge you just as a person. And do I want this person in my life, who freezes me out whenever I say something they dislike? Well, I'm afraid if you're gonna not treat me as a son, I'm not gonna judge you as a mother, I'm gonna judge you just as a person. I mean, with my wife, even if we had no history she'd be a a wonderful person to spend the day with.
Right. So if parents wanna say, well, I get special privileges because of the history, it's like, okay, then you better not ditch the pair bond because the pair bond is the only thing that gives you those privileges.
Anyway, I know I'm repeating myself, so. And also, I mean, I'm just dying on the vine here because I'm the only one feeling anything, it seems like, at this call, and it's your life, not mine.

[2:59:50] Yeah, I appreciate all the help you've given me today. And you know, I definitely next time my mom is, which is, you know, a relatively minor thing. Oh my God, you didn't just say, you didn't just say this.
Oh my God. Well, I didn't finish my thought. No, it doesn't matter.
No, it doesn't matter.
You said next time.
I'm talking about 150% ownership and genuinely caring about someone to the point where you don't let them get surrendered to their own crazy.
And what are you saying?
Passively, next time something comes up, I'll be sure to say something.

[3:00:29] So, I should preemptively do it. I'm not going to tell you should, I'm just saying that self-ownership means not being passive and waiting for something to happen.
I'll just wait for the right girl to drop into my lap.
I'll just wait for the perfect job to materialize.
I'll just wait and when it comes up and... You see, it's very cruel, because when it comes up, your mother's already in a tense state, right? So you're doing it at the worst conceivable time. Like, you talk about your kid's tantrums when they're not having tantrums, you understand?
You talk about someone's anxiety issue when they're not currently going through an anxiety, panic moment, right? Right.

[3:01:16] You don't wait for it to... Anyway, you understand. Yeah, I gotcha.
All right. All right. Well, keep me posted about how it's going. I really do appreciate everyone's time today. These are very interesting calls and very, very interesting conversations and I really do appreciate everyone's time and attention. We are talking! slash free domain. slash free domain. I think I remember that right. If that doesn't work, forward slash donate. I like doing the calls but I have to see obviously the donations to support that, otherwise I'll go back to just reading the texts, which, and I prefer the calls in many ways, I think they're more vivid, but I have to be responsible for the income of the show, particularly now I have these lovely people to work with, so, forward slash donate, have yourselves a wonderful, wonderful day.
Lots of love from up here, I'll talk to you soon, bye.

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