"I am here to find the truth and repent. I told my partner that I wasn’t ready for the relationship as I was going through messy breakup but he was assertive. And now he says he wants ‘bad [me]’ to disappear and die as I cheated, don’t have any respect or appreciation for him. He says that I cannot blame his reaction because of my previous behaviour, I find excuses for my bad actions and keep doing the same, I need to stop lying and take full responsibility. Do I live in oblivion?"
Caller:
[0:00] Hello.
Stefan:
[0:01] Hello, hello. How's it going?
Caller:
[0:02] Happy. Hey, good. Thank you.
Stefan:
[0:06] Well, nice to meet you. Nice to chat. I'm sure we can do something useful with our time together, and do you want to just kick it off and tell me how I can best help?
Caller:
[0:15] Yes. Look, actually, my partner suggested that I should contact you.
We had so many fights, and he's just saying, I don't understand the reality.
I don't understand how to repent, how to regret for things that happened over the course of our relationship.
But I think everything is just tied to my past, what was happening in my past, and the actions I'm choosing to do now.
And I just don't see them as wrong.
I cannot fully repent because I stopped myself from feeling.
I don't know whether I should go in the past or present relationship and that's something that I wanted to discuss with you.
I wanted to start feeling, I want to start seeing the truth in my actions.
Stefan:
[1:09] Right, well I mean we can start from the beginning and it's probably good to get a sense of where you're coming from before we try and figure out what might be wrong in the present. Okay.
Caller:
[1:20] So I was born in Ukraine. I lived with my parents there.
Mom was very… she was screaming at me all the time.
She was devaluing me, always wanting something from me.
I remember only some days when she would be coming back from work and she would be happy.
Other days I would be just waiting for a scream or she would be like throwing a knife at me or something or hit me compared with someone and my father was avoidant so whenever this happened he would just whenever she would scream at him he would just go downstairs and didn't want to deal with any of this.
So then I had a relationship with my ex-husband he was asking me for a baby we had a, It just didn't do any good because we didn't have a good relationship.
He was always fighting with me.
So I decided to leave the country when my son was two years of age.
Because I didn't live with my ex-husband, I found out that he was cheating.
I just had a feeling because sex has changed.
And then he was doing some demands from me.
[2:46] Later on, I found out that he was cheating since my pregnancy, probably maybe even earlier.
He never actually told me that he was cheating, although I said, look, this is what I know.
This is what people are telling me, my parents. The woman you were cheating with, she reached out to me, but I didn't want to talk to her at that stage.
So I came to Australia to probably escape my parents, my family.
I could no longer be with my parents, that's my assumption, but I also wanted to study English.
I wanted to have a new life in the country.
So here I am learning English, then one day I'm receiving a call from my father saying that he can't financially support me anymore and I need to make a decision to stay in Australia or come back to Ukraine and obviously…
[3:49] Studying in Australia. By meeting one of the older guys, he started showing me some signs of affection.
I didn't have boundaries at that stage. I was very shy.
I was so shy that I couldn't even hold a phone conversation with someone or like enter the door or anything.
Then he bought me some clothes and then started making some moves during one of the evenings.
I don't know why, I didn't want that, but I accepted his invitation in bed basically.
[4:28] Since then he said, why don't you come and live with me? So I did.
In the mornings he would come and demand sex. And so I stopped sleeping.
I developed bulimia. I had bulimia for two years and my sleep was just…
I couldn't sleep at all at night.
So after some time, I don't remember, it was actually years, I realized that I just wanted to die to be honest.
And the only thing that was holding me was my son and the dream that we would be together here.
So I pushed. I was still staying with that guy because he was paying for my university.
I was like not staying, I mean sleeping with him.
He was paying for the university.
[5:22] And finally I graduated, found a job, found some disorganized relationships again. I was cheating all the time with other guys.
To me it was like I had to turn off my feelings because if I felt what I did I knew that it was wrong.
It would just destroy me. So I think I turned off all of my feelings one by one.
And then finally, when I broke up with my ex, I met with….
[6:03] Sorry, if we could just stay off the names, that's fine. Okay, I met with him… You can call him Bob.
Stefan:
[6:08] Yeah, call him Bob.
Caller:
[6:09] Okay, I met with Bob, and he was nice.
I told him that I'm not ready for the relationship yet.
I just broke up with my ex, and because I knew it was an on and off relationship, I wanted to make sure that it's not coming back again, because I wanted to stay away from cheating.
And then one night we had a conversation with Bob and I said, look, my ex called me and said that with his friends he was discussing us and he said that one of his friends, if he sees Bob in the lift in the building, because we were living in one building with my ex, If he says Bob, then he would do something to him.
And I told this Bob because I wanted some reassurance with him.
Maybe I was testing him, I don't know.
And it was a few weeks after we met.
But he was really pushy, Bob was really pushy too.
I think he liked me a lot at that stage.
And he just burst into argument and he said He said, no one can talk like this to people.
Then he became silent.
[7:38] He became silent for a few days. We had a trip planned in a few days and the trip didn't happen.
And he said, you didn't come, you basically, you destroyed the trip.
It was your choice not to come.
But I said, look, but how would I come if you'd stop talking with me?
And it's just constantly my fault now. And then I cheated on him with my accent.
I regret it. And the cycle just started.
Bob was still trying to teach me, educate me on different topics, was trying to give me love.
And I didn't return him this love, I didn't listen to him the way he listened to some of my childhood traumas.
And then he said, I worked on our relationship before, now it's your turn to work, I cannot be in this anymore.
It's now your turn to solve some of the issues that we had.
For example, one of the issues was during last new year when we went to a sailing trip and then he organized a restaurant and.
[9:04] I don't know how this happened, but I basically was looking after two kids on a sailing trip, my kid and my friend's kid.
I said to him, just wait, kids are going to be hungry, I need to cook for them, despite he organized his friends to look after them.
And I started cooking and then Bob became upset and then he started, after one of the kids left, my friend's kid left, he started screaming at me, calling names and I said no, I cannot, I just cannot tolerate it and I left the ship, the yacht to the shore and then he's saying And now he's saying it was my decision to leave the yacht.
He was waiting for me to talk to him on the shore.
But then I didn't approach him when he was on shore.
So they left on the yacht and then I got upset with him.
But he said it's all my actions. what I'm doing that led to him, to his anger.
[10:26] Everything that I'm doing, it just seems that provoking him.
I don't know how to apologize properly. I don't know how to stay away from conflict.
Whenever conflict appears, I'm just so scared when a person start screaming that I leave.
I just either ask that person to leave or I leave myself and I think it's just triggering what was happening with my mother.
That's pretty much it.
Stefan:
[11:02] It's quite a lot to take in, quite a lot of information.
Caller:
[11:06] I'm sorry.
Stefan:
[11:06] No, no, that's fine. No, I asked. I mean, I'm glad you told me.
I'm glad you told me. Don't apologize. I'm just telling you, it's a lot.
So we started off with your childhood. We spent, I don't know, 30 seconds on your childhood, and then we went to the dramas of the dating life.
Gosh, like, tell me a little bit more about your mother and throwing knives at you.
And like, what the heck was going on with that? When did that start?
Where was your dad? Like what was going on in your childhood?
Caller:
[11:35] Everyone thought that we are a nice family. Everyone in the city, it was all perfect because when friends would come over or outside, they would be just very nice to us, but then at home, it was always screaming, always, always.
I was wrong, whatever I would do, it would be wrong. like my mom would be calling me or asking me to prepare some food.
But then I didn't know how to peel a potato. I just didn't know it.
I didn't know how to cook something and she would approach me and hit me and scream at me.
But then what I realized years later is that she never showed me this.
She never taught me even how to peel a potato. I was like six or seven years old.
[12:33] Mom would just get angry to that extent. She would just throw anything that she was holding at me.
I was a second child. Mom lost her first child when she was pregnant. I was a second child.
Then my sister came on quite unexpectedly. We were always fighting with my always.
I think for them it was quite challenging to have two kids and it was probably too much for her.
[13:06] My father wasn't, he just wasn't there. They just wanted me to do whatever they felt like should be done.
If it's learning English, they would say no because my mom heard that, my auntie told my mom that I can learn English by myself and I was like 10 years of age and I wanted just a little bit of money to go like other kids to a teacher and learn English with them. My parents said no.
Then I wanted to learn math and go to a different university, but my parents said no.
They just persuaded me to learn physics, to study medicine at one of the universities.
They just did everything for me so I end up in medicine.
I hated it for six years.
It was the worst time of my life.
I don't know what I was doing and why I didn't leave.
[14:09] Probably because I was with my mom for such a long time, just sitting there in my shelf and just waiting for her to stop screaming.
I mean, a lot of the time I felt like I would just lie down on bed and I felt like something heavy is on me, like almost I'm under the road.
Like it was so heavy and I felt that pushing like tense sensation in my body.
That's what I was experiencing a lot of the time. It was a strange feeling, but probably again it was all emotional.
Stefan:
[14:48] And was this common in Ukraine when you were growing up, this kind of violence towards children?
Caller:
[14:57] I don't know, to be honest. I don't know what it's like to be in a normal family.
I don't think it was common among my friends because whenever I would come to their family, it was like parents were nice to each other.
They didn't scream. I didn't hear them screaming, at least.
If some of the kids wanted to stay at our place, it would be fine, but I wasn't allowed to stay at any of their places.
I found an exact copy of my mom, I think, in my ex-husband, who was very controlling and he was abusing me in the same way.
He was just screaming at me that I did something wrong.
So, I guess I would just find similar relationships as with my mom.
And to answer your question, I don't know.
Because our family dynamics were quite hidden from the eye of others.
Stefan:
[16:01] Right, no, I bet, I bet. And what's the status of your relationship with your parents at the moment?
Caller:
[16:09] Unfortunately, I am living with them because this relationship was so dysfunctional.
So previous relationship was with a BPD person.
He told me this and psychologists that I had at the beginning of my relationship with Bob told me to run actually.
They said run away. This person and probably also has PPG, he will destroy you.
[16:42] I didn't run. He told me that my psychologists, I shouldn't be having a psychologist.
He's a bad psychologist, I'm a bad psychologist myself. So I stopped talking to them. I had two jobs. I lost them.
In a way, I just became so overwhelmed with emotions that I was lost.
I lost my self-identity and then I listened to Jordan Peterson who was telling about what women should do in society.
I kind of agreed with him but I wanted to make that transition slow instead of just, leaving work or getting kicked out of work and having no job.
So I ended up living with my parents at the moment.
I've been here for a few months. I'm just trying to find myself again.
Unfortunately, I want to leave this household. It just gets too intense and I don't want them to damage my child even more because my child was staying with them for two years, sorry, since two years of age till seven years of age.
And then my child experienced these kind of relationships, my relationships with abusive, previous abusive partners.
[18:09] And I'm just trying to find that way out of this drama, control, out of this cheating, yeah, just a normal life as it should be.
Stefan:
[18:25] Sorry, I'm trying to figure out. So your son has been with your parents from the age of two to seven, is that right?
Caller:
[18:32] When I was in Australia, yes. Yes, I was learning English and trying, and then I was studying at the university, trying to get some residency here, like to apply for a permanent residency.
Finally, when I applied, I had a good visa for him to come and study at school for free.
And I also finally was accepted for one of the jobs.
And good jobs.
Stefan:
[19:00] How often would you see your son in this five years?
Caller:
[19:04] I was trying to come twice or once a year for a couple of months.
He was very upset because I couldn't even leave him.
I couldn't even leave him because I couldn't say goodbye to him.
So I would leave early in the morning, so I don't even say him goodbye, because it would be just too much.
Stefan:
[19:37] And how is your son doing at the moment?
Caller:
[19:43] He has big problems at school.
He's quite smart, but really big problems with his behavior.
Psychologists told me that he has ADHD, so I have ADHD as well, and he has ODD, Oppositional Defiant Disorder.
When they ask him to do something, he would just refuse, he would just say no to everything that he doesn't want to do.
So if it interests him, then he would do it. He's perfect at it.
But if it doesn't, then he is not paying attention and he's just not marked for it.
And I'm constantly picking him up from school.
It would be, I don't know, at least once a week. And then he gets suspended from school.
Stefan:
[20:36] Right, okay, okay.
And how's his relationship with you, your son?
Caller:
[20:46] Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad.
Sometimes he listens to me, sometimes he doesn't. When he says no, it's very hard to overcome his no, but then I'm trying to distract him.
I'm trying to do a lot for him, to sign him up for different activities, so he develops.
But I feel it's wrong. I need to develop that bond with him through conversations, and not only conversations but games.
And because my parents… I don't think they ever played a game with me. Never. I think never.
So I don't know how to play games with him. I don't know how to be like, you know, some people are just cheeky and nice and they have this kind of charisma. and, don't have these things. I just don't know how to play.
And I feel that I'm very serious. I think a lot of people are serious in Ukraine.
They don't smile. It's just all seriousness. And that's what I feel he needs from me.
He wants to be a little bit playful, and.
[22:06] I cannot give it to him. And I can't give him discipline because I don't have discipline myself. I am so easily distracted to other different things.
I would be working on a task, for example, remotely from home, and then a thought pops up in my head, oh, I need to replant something, like a strawberry, and I would go to the balcony and start replanting it.
And then I would be thinking in my head, oh my god, what I'm doing right now?
I'm in the middle of the task for my job and I'm replanting something.
Or we agreed with my parents to go to the gallery, and then my sister would want macarons.
And I say, okay, fine, I will go get some, then come back to the gallery, let's go together on a tour.
And then I would get distracted by a bookshop.
I would go there and start searching for books, knowing that they are waiting for me.
So that's my dynamics as well with myself.
Stefan:
[23:09] And what is your, I suppose your son has seen a psychologist or therapist and so on, and what is their prognosis about this?
What do they think is going to happen with your son going forward?
Didn't give me any promises i didn't ask i assume that there's some idea about what you should do or how to approach things.
Caller:
[23:37] They must talk with him they didn't talk with me as much i don't know why they.
They just were talking about emotional regulation, but I believe that it's not about him.
It's about me and what I'm doing day to day with him. They discipline everything, the things that I'm telling him.
Sometimes I scream at him and then I stop myself, apologize, and I'm saying, no, I don't want to be like her.
I hate this version of me.
And I stop and I try to relax and talk with him and explain him things, why this is challenging when he's saying no to important things that I'm asking from him, but psychologist didn't give me any advice how to move forward I know that school believes in him because they are telling me how smart he is and they don't want him to be expelled.
They want him to study and they see that they can help him.
One of my ex-partners told me that Tim with his behavior would end up in prison.
Stefan:
[25:00] Well, I mean, that's not exactly an expert opinion, but… And what has been happening with your son at school?
What is it that is causing him to get labeled with this oppositional defiant disorder?
Caller:
[25:16] It's mostly things that he's asked to do.
Say, he would be doing some inappropriate behaviors.
He would pick up a stick and chase other boys, and other teachers would tell him, you have to stop, you cannot do these behaviours at school, this is prohibited here.
But then he would refuse it, or he would give a stick but he would refuse to come to the office for example.
So it's this constant just saying no to things.
And then in class he is not doing activities.
So when a teacher asks him to do something, he wouldn't. he wouldn't do an assessment or he wouldn't do his writing.
So they are trying to find an approach to him, like give him a task a little bit different or let him just continue with whatever he's doing at school.
So he might be just busy sharpening his pencils for example and they just let him be because he's sharpening his pencils but he's also listening on the background.
But the school explained to me that this kind of listening and learning works for him when he's little.
When he goes to high school in a couple of years he will not be able to comprehend the information this way.
He would have to find his focus.
Stefan:
[26:44] And how do you know, do you know much about, I mean if your mother was screaming at you and throwing knives at you, do you know what your son's experience was in the half decade he was with your parents?
Caller:
[26:57] I think what was happening is they would send him to kindergarten.
He didn't want to go but what they were doing they were just letting him to watch cartoons and distracting him.
So in the morning he wouldn't want to go to kindergarten but they would turn on the TV and then my mom would be talking to him while dressing him up, feeding him from spoon and then my father would take him to kindergarten and come back to pick him up at 6 p.m.
Then he would be watching TV again and TV during the weekend.
Or my son would be just doing something, either helping them out, like my father out in the garage or…
I don't exactly know, but most of the times he was in the kindergarten or watching TV.
Now he has kind of dependency on the laptops and phones, games, YouTube.
So I had to help him with what he could do, because even if he watches a little bit or plays a game, he becomes uncontrollable.
Stefan:
[28:10] I'm sorry, you just cut out for a second there, if you could just repeat that.
Caller:
[28:14] My son has dependency. He becomes quite dependent on games.
If he plays a game and then I stop him he would just start screaming and next day or next few days or next week depending how long I let him play for how many days.
I mean he might play hours and hours and hours. He would play all night and then he would just become not like a normal child.
He would just become so easily irritated because sometimes he hid his laptop and played all night and then I found out and started taking the laptop from him.
And now when he's asking me to watch YouTube it's very very limited because he just he cannot control himself after watching YouTube.
He just becomes so distracted from reality.
His ODD becomes so bad that he would just start crying about things I ask him to do and start screaming at me that he's not going to do it.
Stefan:
[29:24] And do you know if your parents were verbally abusive, like screamed at him or hit him or threw things at him?
Caller:
[29:31] I don't think they threw things at him or hit him, but my mom definitely was abusing him in the same verbal way.
She also was very pushy with food.
When I was growing up, everything was around food.
You have to eat this, you are going to die almost if you don't eat.
And even now, my mom hasn't changed.
[29:58] We became vegan with my son. It was a very interesting decision.
And my partner, Bob, was vegan for, has been vegan for 10 years now.
And I was making that decision.
I was considering that decision for a couple of years before even I met him.
So he helped. and mom was very… she couldn't accept it.
I think the only way she accepted it is because for the health of my sister.
My sister had bowel cancer when she was 28 or 29.
Then it came back So they came to Australia.
She hadn't received a doctor. She doesn't have anything since then.
But it was a metastatic cancer.
She cannot have kids anymore.
[31:01] She believes that it happened because of the stress with her ex-partner, or maybe with mom as well, with parents.
Stefan:
[31:16] And sorry, just remind me, the father of your son, where he is at the moment?
Caller:
[31:24] He's in Ukraine.
Stefan:
[31:25] And does he have any relationship with his son?
Caller:
[31:29] No. He told me when I was breaking up with him that it's either I'm staying with him and he's involved in the child's everything or I am just living by myself and he's not involved at all.
He started fighting for my child when I left to Australia because he made some…
I don't know. He just started fighting. He went to the court to take the child from my parents.
But I knew that he didn't want this child because he had a relationship with a woman who was older than him, who had two kids.
[32:22] He wasn't involved in when my child was a few months of age, he would just go to her because he was always disappearing, always.
And he was lying to me that he was with his parents at his parents' place.
And then finally, after a few months, when I called his mom and dad and I said, what's happening? What's happening? Why?
How do you not understand that I need him? He cannot work at your place, help you, I need him.
And they were shocked to hear this. They didn't reply anything to me.
I didn't know what's happening.
And only after I found out that he was with her all of this time, most likely, because he wasn't in their place, they didn't have any idea.
And his father was also cheating on his mom.
And I knew it. My parents told me this. Everyone in the city knew it, that his father is cheating.
Stefan:
[33:24] Right, okay, okay. I'm trying to sort of figure out, like I'm trying to find some sort of connection.
I mean, your son seems to be, I'm obviously no psychologist, but your son seems to being pretty, it's pretty bad, isn't it?
I mean, how, it's your boy. How are you feeling about that?
Caller:
[33:48] So when I found out, when I have a good relationship stable until it goes all wrong, all bad, he becomes really good.
He just, he listens, he behaves, he does everything because he almost needs this male figure in his life. That's why I was pushing for a relationship with Matt.
Stefan:
[34:10] No, no, no, no, no, it's all analysis. Like, how is your heart?
I mean, he kind of got smashed up, didn't he, when he was little?
Caller:
[34:19] Yeah.
Stefan:
[34:20] So what are your feelings about what's happened with your son?
Caller:
[34:28] I am angry with myself that I couldn't find And a para-decision.
And I just, I don't know how to care for him.
I don't know now what to do with him.
I'm trying to develop myself to show him what I know because I see the changes in him when I change, when I explain him things.
I'm talking with him, I'm explaining to him what mom is doing is wrong.
Sometimes the things that I'm doing, I'm screaming at you, Stop me, please, because I don't want to be like your grandma.
It's, I want to become someone.
Stefan:
[35:17] I'm not trying to make you feel bad, but you did leave him for five years with known child abusers, right?
Caller:
[35:27] I didn't know that it's child abuse.
Stefan:
[35:29] I'm sorry, say again?
Caller:
[35:30] Until I didn't know that it's child abuse until a few probably years ago.
Stefan:
[35:36] Wait, wait, come on, they threw knives at you. You can't imagine that's totally normal or healthy, right?
Caller:
[35:44] I think I turned off my emotions to that extent that I didn't feel anything.
I would just, mom would be screaming at me because she was screaming so often daily that I would just dissociate. I wouldn't hear her.
I would be just looking at her as she's opening her mouth and screaming at me and asking me to die.
She was telling me I want you to die. You made me have all these diseases.
You made me have higher blood pressure etc. She was almost dying in her bed.
She was lying there crying, blaming things on me and my sister.
I couldn't tolerate this as a little girl, so I had to turn off my feelings.
I was just looking at her and I wouldn't know what to do.
Stefan:
[36:42] And of course, I absolutely sympathize with all of that that happened with you as a child. Absolutely.
That's awful beyond words.
But I'm trying to figure out where your heart is relative to your son.
Tell me, what was the decision around having a baby when you were young?
Caller:
[37:06] I didn't want a baby. I wasn't ready. I wasn't, but my ex-husband…
Stefan:
[37:12] Was it a sheer accident or were you having unprotected sex?
Caller:
[37:16] It wasn't an accident. It was my decision.
He wanted a baby. He was asking me a baby for Since I was 17, we were dating from the age of 15 or 16.
His mom had him when she was 14, probably.
He always wanted to become a young parent and have a few kids, three, four kids.
And I never felt that I'm ready. But then we had a big fight.
And then we didn't speak for a long time. And then I came back.
And then he said, again, I want a baby. So I was like, okay, let's have a baby.
It wasn't responsible at all for me.
Stefan:
[38:01] And just remind me what the warning signs were about him. Like what was alarming you about his behavior?
Caller:
[38:11] It's just constant on and off relationship.
He would always scream at me, abuse me verbally, saying bad words at me and then he would blame everything on me and stop talking until I ran back to him, apologized, just tell him how much I want him back and then we would start again.
That was always, like, constant.
Stefan:
[38:50] And how long were you together with him for?
Caller:
[38:55] Five or six years.
Stefan:
[38:58] And what was the final straw or the what caused the end of the relationship?
Caller:
[39:06] So when I became pregnant my parents often asked to leave at our place and, then I don't know exactly what happened I think his parents asked my parents to buy a property, like invest in property next to them, but I think they wanted my parents to give them money to purchase it, even like that.
And then when my father said no, because he was even happy to give this money to them, but he said no because he was busy with helping with my child, he was helping me with my child, He was looking after him in the morning because the child was always crying.
He was crying day and night.
I had maximum of one or two hours of sleep a day.
[40:05] So he dismissed this request.
Then my ex-husband would become very avoidant of me.
Then he would ask me, we have to go and live separately in an apartment.
And I said, I cannot because the child is always screaming.
I wouldn't be able to look after not only you, after myself, because parents were still helping me to cook food, prepare everything clean.
My mom would help me to do this stuff.
[40:43] Because whenever I put my son to sleep, he would be just crying after 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 30 minutes, and I would be so tired that I didn't even understand what's happening because I just had so little sleep.
But then eventually I said, okay, let's try, but you need to help me.
So he took me into this apartment and then he would just disappear and go to work.
And I told him, look, I cannot drive to the supermarket anywhere because the child is just crying.
I cannot leave him crying in a car, for example. I cannot even go to the supermarket because he would be just crying.
And then he went to his father's birthday and I said, look, Please don't go.
Be with me. I need you right now." But he went, and it was…
[41:37] Something that made me come back to my parents. And then he said, okay, you came back to your parents, but again, come and live with my parents, but you have to beg them on your knees. You have to apologize.
And I said, look, I don't know what to apologize for.
I actually, I don't know, even to this day, I don't know what I should have apologized for.
But what I know is he had an affair.
I think his father knew about the affair because he was telling my parents how many girls are around him, etc.
And yeah, this girl just messaged me later on, saying that she would like to meet with me.
But I said yes initially.
But then I thought I made a decision to break up with him after people started telling my parents that he was having an affair all this time since my pregnancy.
And I made a decision that I would go to Australia to fully break up with him, to just run away basically from my parents, from all this situation.
And that's how I broke up with him.
Stefan:
[42:58] Okay. Got it. And then he's never had anything to do with your son since, is that right? Other than trying to get custody?
Caller:
[43:06] Yeah. Yeah. I was considering whether I should keep talking to him or not, and because of the visa and I needed his permission for my son to come to Australia, I would be nice to him and polite.
Also I spoke with a psychologist and she said no matter what happens in the relationship, It's good for a kid to have a foundation, to have both father and mother as a good image that can support him if something happens.
So I never told my son a story, what happened, the truth about his father, what was happening.
I said, you can always call your father, he's a good man, just sometimes relationships don't work. So, they have just a phone relationship probably once a year now.
They didn't have it often, they didn't have any conversations more often than every couple of months.
Stefan:
[44:16] And how old is your son now?
Caller:
[44:19] He's turning 11 in a week.
Stefan:
[44:21] Oh wow, is he getting big? Is he doing the grow-up puberty stuff yet?
Caller:
[44:29] Because I put him in different activities.
He's doing jiu-jitsu, he's doing sailing.
His mind is occupied with just more like technical things and I'm trying to make him busy with everything else.
So that's what he's doing. He liked a girl but she wasn't nice to him and I explained to him, this is not the right girl, those are the reasons why she's pushing you away.
Stefan:
[45:05] So we had a- Wow, a girl at 11, that seems kind of early, but alright.
Caller:
[45:10] He just liked her, he didn't have anything, he just liked her, he wanted to buy her a bicycle for her birthday and do just nice things to her and take her shopping.
I don't know where he got all this stuff from.
Stefan:
[45:23] And where does he get the money for, or how do you pay for jiu-jitsu and sailing and other things like that?
Caller:
[45:31] I had two jobs, so I saved some money, and now because my parents are paying for the house here, I'm still paying for his classes, but obviously money is not infinite, so I'm Sorry, you have two jobs, currently?
I had two jobs. So I said, yes, at the same time, I don't have a job.
I had some savings and now I am going to apply for some jobs again.
So I'm going to do some translation services.
And also I'm thinking, what can I do? What can be more feminine to do?
Because everything what I was doing before was like a more masculine job.
I just didn't feel it right. It wasn't aligned with my heart.
Stefan:
[46:28] What do you mean? What is a masculine job?
Caller:
[46:32] I mean, I wanted to become a surgeon, for example.
And every surgeon was telling me, this is not good for our family.
You have a son now, you have responsibility. You don't have a man to take care of the son.
Because normally if the woman decides to become a surgeon or to become any busy doctor for example, then a lot of the time it's a responsibility for her man to look after the child because, when you work as a surgeon I worked in the hospital before and I had an au pair who was looking after team and I would just when I would just come from work I would be so tired like eight nine.
He would be either sleeping already or I wouldn't have any strength or capacity to look after him, even read him a bedtime story.
I would leave to work very early as well so the au pair would have to take him to school.
Sometimes I worked on weekends so this is not a job for a female who is a single parent.
[47:49] And also I worked in IT. I was doing some computer science tasks and I feel it's more analytical and I feel it's more masculine job.
For a woman it's what is aligned with her heart.
So once I started feeling a little bit more, started feeling different emotions, started living by myself without a partner, that's what I wanted to make the transition.
Because before, I saw these kind of jobs like, say, baking some pancakes, for example, for living, for example.
I saw it as not… They're just not, how to call it, professional enough.
You are not valued, for example.
I didn't see small talk as valuable, like with your friends, or playing with a key even, playing games, being silly.
I was always strict.
This is how it's going to be done. These are the steps I need to do.
Try to be very logical and strict. But this has changed.
Stefan:
[49:11] And what's your son's relationship with your parents these days?
Caller:
[49:18] It's good. I'm sorry, you said it's good?
It's not good. It's not good. It's an important difference.
Stefan:
[49:26] Sorry, go ahead.
Caller:
[49:28] Yeah. So mom would be asking him to do something, like feed him again, but I ask him please don't when he doesn't want to eat don't ask him 100 times don't push him but she would push, and ask him different things if she doesn't like it her way she would just go upstairs and close herself in the room he would scream back at her and then he would scream at my father as well because he's watching mom screaming at my father and he's doing exactly the same thing you're just repeating.
Stefan:
[50:04] Well, then you said that he'd been verbally abused as a kid himself, right? So that's what he would be used to I guess, Okay, well I appreciate it again, I'm really really sorry for all that happened to you as a child It's really really terrible and my huge sympathies for that.
So what is it that prompted you to send me the email?
Caller:
[50:27] In the relationship with my current partner.
We also had an on and off relationship and he said that I do not know how to apologize, I don't value him, I don't respect him.
I basically killed his respect with my actions, that his love was dissolved with me, that I don't feel any He's also saying things like, it's dangerous for me to be with you.
Stefan:
[51:04] I'm sorry, dangerous how?
Caller:
[51:06] He just said it's dangerous to be with you, like for him it's dangerous because I am triggering him with my actions to be with you.
Stefan:
[51:16] Okay, so he has some pretty awful things to say about you, right?
But why would you be with him if he thinks of you this way?
Caller:
[51:31] Because I'm trying to understand where is my fault.
Stefan:
[51:39] No, no, hang on, hang on, hang on, sorry, sorry, okay.
Does he like you as a… I mean, I'm sorry to be so obvious, does he like you as a person?
Caller:
[51:51] This has two people in me, a bad person and a good person, and he has a bad person, but he loves a good person. The bad person needs to die.
Stefan:
[52:05] Sorry, you cut off at the end there.
Caller:
[52:10] The bad person needs to die.
Stefan:
[52:14] So he thinks that part of you needs to die in order for you guys to get along?
That seems a bit sinister, doesn't it?
Caller:
[52:26] Yeah, I told him that I'm whole and with his actions he's punishing not only, bad side of me but the good side of me as well.
Stefan:
[52:37] Yeah, I mean, so I'm gonna ask the question again because I got a bit of a run around, which is fine, but does he like you as a person?
And this dividing into good and bad and there's two people, like, does he just like you as a person?
Does he care about you? Does he respect you? Does he like you?
I don't know about the love word, because the love word means a lot of things to a lot of different people, but does he like you as a person?
Does he enjoy your company? Does he enjoy your conversation?
Does he find you insightful or funny or all of the above? I mean, does he like you as a person?
Caller:
[53:12] From what I understand is we enjoy spending time with each other, enjoy having deep conversations on different topics.
We like challenging each other with this kind of conversations but he also says that he lost respect towards me and I don't respect him.
Stefan:
[53:36] Okay I'm gonna ask for a third time.
Does he like you as a you know, you don't know how to apologize, you're a bad person, half of you is bad, and I don't respect you, and you're killing my self-esteem, like all of that, whatever, I don't know, like all the stuff that he was saying.
Well, that's the language of someone who doesn't like someone, isn't it?
So, why is he with you if he doesn't seem to like you that much, or at least consistently?
Caller:
[54:23] Maybe he believes that I can change.
Stefan:
[54:27] Okay, how long have you been dating him?
Caller:
[54:31] More than a year.
Stefan:
[54:33] Okay.
He knows your history, right? That you were significantly abused and terrified as a child, and that you've had a number of abusive relationships, and like he knows all of that, right?
Caller:
[54:47] He knows some of it, yeah.
Stefan:
[54:49] Yeah, I mean, all of it, who knows what that means, right? So he knows that you have a history of being verbally abused by people, right?
And what does he do with you when he tells you all these terrible things about yourself? What is he doing?
Caller:
[55:06] He's abusing me. Right.
Stefan:
[55:07] So he knows that what's done you the most damage, I would imagine, is verbal abuse.
Right? Now, when we tell things about ourselves to people, right, we are giving them our vulnerabilities. We're telling them, look, here's where things really hurt, right?
Like I remember many years ago, I went to go and see a movie, I tripped, and my ribs fell into the arm of the movie theater seat.
And it just, it didn't crack my ribs, but it bruised like crazy, right?
And so of course, when I met up with people, they wanted to give me hugs and so on, I said, Listen man, my left side is really tender and I'd tell them what happened, right?
I mean, that makes sense. Now, if I had a friend who kept thumping and pushing in the sore spot, what would that indicate?
Caller:
[56:04] Yeah, it's not good.
Stefan:
[56:05] Well, he's an asshole. Because look, I'm telling him, this is where it hurts in me.
And if he's like, doosh! Oh, I hit you where it hurts, right?
He's kind of psycho, right?
Caller:
[56:17] What he says is actually that I started all of this, because he says that…
Stefan:
[56:22] No, no, no, no. I've given you a lot of time to talk, right?
And I've really appreciated you giving me all these details, right?
But just follow this with me, right? So you've told him that verbal insults and put-downs and massive existential criticisms of your being, was incredibly painful to you and probably did more harm to you than just about any other single thing.
So your boyfriend knows this, right?
Caller:
[56:50] Can I just add one more thing?
Stefan:
[56:51] No, you can't. That he keeps the pigeons. No, no, wait, wait.
I'd really appreciate it if you would answer the question.
Caller:
[56:58] If he knows this.
Stefan:
[56:59] Okay, so he knows this. So he knows that verbal attacks are the things that hurt you the most. And then what does he do?
He verbally attacks you.
Caller:
[57:11] He is verbally attacking me.
Stefan:
[57:12] Right.
Caller:
[57:12] Yes.
Stefan:
[57:14] So he's hitting you. You said, this is where it really hurts in me and he just keeps pounding back. Right? I mean, if I'm wrong, tell me. I don't want to be unfair.
Caller:
[57:22] No, it is true.
Stefan:
[57:23] Okay.
So why?
Why you know this hurts you so much? You also know that you have to be a good example for your son.
Right? So, why are you letting yourself be put down if you want to be a good example to your son?
And why do you say to your son, well, this 11-year-old girl, she's not very nice to you, so you probably shouldn't be interested in her, right?
You give good advice to your son, how about you take some yourself?
Hey, that 11-year-old girl, she's not very nice to you, you might not want to date her. Let me go back to the guy who says I've stripped him of his will to live, I feel a lot of guilt I don't know.
I'm sorry. I care, but I don't care Because I need you to just help me understand, Why you're doing what you're doing?
Caller:
[58:26] But that's what I'm trying to say.
Stefan:
[58:27] No, no, but because Okay, so how about this, so hang on, no the reason I don't care is let's say your son said to you, well I feel really guilty if I don't buy her a bicycle, right?
You wanted to buy her a bicycle for Christmas, right? She say, he says, oh mom, she's nice, she's cute or whatever, but she's really mean to me and I want to buy her a bicycle and you say, well, you know, if she's mean to you, you might not want to buy her the bicycle, and then he says, oh, but I feel really guilty if I don't, what would you say?
Caller:
[59:02] That's exactly what I told him, she's mean to you.
Stefan:
[59:05] Right, no, but if he said, if he said, I know she's mean to me, but I feel guilty if I don't buy her the bicycle, what would you say?
Caller:
[59:13] She's mean, you have to leave her.
Stefan:
[59:15] Well, you'd say she's probably manipulating you into feel guilty, so she gets the bicycle.
It's not real guilt. It's not genuine guilt. It's not honest.
She's just playing you. Oh, I so much want a bicycle. I really wish some handsome, strong boy would buy me a bicycle.
I feel so sad if I don't get a bike. Like, she's just playing you.
So this is why I don't particularly care about the guilt that you feel, Because if you've got a guy who's verbally abusing you, when he knows how painful that is to you, I don't imagine any of your guilt is genuine.
Because guilt would just be part of the verbal abuse.
Caller:
[59:54] But he says I started it, when I didn't accept his childhood traumas that he was telling me about.
Stefan:
[1:00:00] Okay, okay. Hey man, let's say he's completely right.
Let's say you're just such a mean, terrible person. I'm kidding, right?
But let's say you are just this evil witch who won't accept his childhood trauma, right?
You're just terrible. Yeah, right. Let's say that just for the sake of argument.
I don't think it's true, but let's just say that okay So then what?
Then he should say oh this terrible woman won't accept my childhood trauma.
So maybe I should date her But you don't sit there and say well you're doing all these terrible things I'm going to keep dating you and then keep telling you how terrible you are and then say that you're at fault and I'm the victim, I'm sorry, you're breaking up again.
Caller:
[1:00:48] You'll have to repeat that Why he's trying to change me why he is why he keeps abusing me and at the same time Trying to change me.
Stefan:
[1:01:00] I'm sorry. Why would that matter? Did you say to your son with the 11 year old girl?
Did you say well, you know, it's really important that we figure out Why she's being mean You know, you've got to talk to my family. You got to interview her relatives You've got her case history her life history.
It'd be great if we could throw her into an MRI for a brain scan We've got to just figure out why she's being so mean Did you say that to her? to him?
Caller:
[1:01:30] Of course not.
Stefan:
[1:01:31] So what does it matter why he's doing what he's doing?
Caller:
[1:01:40] Because of attachment, I think, maybe I'm just attached.
Stefan:
[1:01:44] Attachment to what? To a guy who tells you you're half-evil?
Caller:
[1:01:53] But what if it's true? What if I am evil?
Stefan:
[1:01:58] Okay, let's say you're half-evil. Okay, no, no, that's fine, that's fine, let's play that out.
Okay, so let's say, I don't know, I'm sorry, you're half-angel and half-devil, right?
Let's say that he's right, okay?
So is he sleeping with you?
Caller:
[1:02:21] He stopped sleeping with me.
Stefan:
[1:02:23] And when did he stop sleeping with you?
Caller:
[1:02:26] He told me about his previous relationship, that he stopped sleeping with his ex and then they broke up.
And then he stopped kissing me in my lips, I noticed this. and he stopped sleeping with me.
He would just say, I don't…
Right before one of these cycles again started.
Stefan:
[1:02:53] Okay, help me out, sister. I don't know what one of these cycles means. Give me a month, a week.
When did he stop kissing you?
Caller:
[1:03:03] It happens every couple of, like, every three, four weeks.
Stefan:
[1:03:06] All right, I'm gonna ask again, make it simpler. Okay, hang on.
When did he last sleep with you?
Caller:
[1:03:16] A few weeks ago.
Stefan:
[1:03:17] Okay, so for a couple of weeks he's been withholding affection, right?
He's punishing you, and he's also threatening you in a way, because he said, oh, the last time I withheld affection, my relationship ended.
Caller:
[1:03:31] Yes, I know that he's withholding.
Stefan:
[1:03:31] So he's manipulating you by withholding affection, right?
So that's mean. He also knew that you grew up with cold parents, angry parents, parents who rejected you.
So that being rejected and having affection withheld from you is also very alarming and scary for you, right?
So he knows all of this.
Caller:
[1:03:55] He should understand this, yeah.
Stefan:
[1:03:57] Yeah, so okay, but let's go back and let's say you're half evil, okay? You're half evil.
I don't know what that means, I really don't. It's like saying to someone, you're half healthy.
Caller:
[1:04:10] It's like because I'm giving him justifications for my actions, say I don't accept that it's my fault that we didn't go somewhere like that he planned.
Stefan:
[1:04:21] Okay, so you're rejecting that something is your fault, right?
Caller:
[1:04:24] I'm rejecting because he didn't come with me. We planned something.
Stefan:
[1:04:29] Okay, hang on, no, no, no, no, no, no, see, this is what, I'm confused, and I'm sorry to interrupt you, I really do apologize, but we're trying to work with the idea that you're half evil, right?
And then you say, well, apparently the evil part of me is the part that doesn't want to take responsibility for everything that goes wrong. Do I have that right?
Caller:
[1:04:47] That's correct.
Stefan:
[1:04:47] Okay, so that's not evil.
Caller:
[1:04:49] Yeah.
Stefan:
[1:04:49] That's sane. So what is the evil that you think he might be right about?
And it's not, I don't take responsibility for everything because that's not evil, right?
So yeah, and and even if you are responsible for something and you don't take responsibility for something That's still not evil.
It may be dysfunctional. It might be a little messed up, but it's not evil.
You're not like Shooting seagulls and you know, no growing children off cliffs or something, right?
Okay. So what is the evil?
That you've you have fears he might be right about what is it that would make you so bad.
Caller:
[1:05:29] I think the cheating, that I didn't give him, I didn't apologize.
Stefan:
[1:05:37] Sorry, you didn't apologize for cheating on him?
Okay, and sorry, just remind me, did he ever cheat on you?
Caller:
[1:05:46] No.
Stefan:
[1:05:47] He didn't cheat on you, okay. And if you can, I'm sorry to ask about this, but if you could just remind me the circumstances of your cheating, how did you end up cheating?
Caller:
[1:05:56] It was, I told him that I'm not ready for a relationship.
I told him that. It basically was a warning to him, but he decided to enter this relationship.
He was pushing me almost into a relationship, but then I made the decision, okay, fine, I will not see my ex, this is my future, I want to stick with it.
But then once he became so angry with me for things that when I need reassurance from him, That's when my ex still was chatting with me, that's when I cheated on him.
Stefan:
[1:06:36] Okay, so you slept with your ex?
Caller:
[1:06:40] I did.
Stefan:
[1:06:40] And how long into the relationship with the new guy did you sleep with your ex?
Caller:
[1:06:45] A few weeks after. It wasn't…
Stefan:
[1:06:47] No, no, hang on. A few weeks after what? It wasn't even a relationship.
Wait, wait, wait. A few weeks after what?
Caller:
[1:06:53] Yeah. Dating. After meeting him.
Stefan:
[1:06:56] So a few weeks after meeting him, were you boyfriend girlfriend at this point?
Caller:
[1:07:01] He says that when people meet each other for the first time They know that they like each other and might want to build a family So he considers this as cheating, but it wasn't only once when I slept with my ex It was for like months or something when I slept with him longer.
Stefan:
[1:07:17] I'm sorry So you kept sleeping with your ex was it while you were dating this new guy?
Yes, right. Okay So he knew that you have, and sorry, you obviously kept it from the new guy, you didn't tell him and all of that, right?
Caller:
[1:07:35] Yeah, I don't know. I think my ex told him that I slept with him.
Stefan:
[1:07:40] Okay, that doesn't matter to me. Now, were you sleeping with both men at the same time?
And did your ex know about your new guy?
Caller:
[1:07:50] He knew some that I met him. I told him that I want to break up with him.
Stefan:
[1:07:55] No, no, but did he know that, sorry, did your ex know that the new guy was your boyfriend?
Caller:
[1:08:01] With me, no.
Stefan:
[1:08:03] No. Oh, so your ex didn't know that you were sleeping with these two men at the same time and neither did your new boyfriend, right?
Caller:
[1:08:10] No.
Stefan:
[1:08:11] Okay.
Caller:
[1:08:12] Like, it wasn't not, it was not at the same time, actually.
It was that I started sleeping with him and maybe I slept like once and then second time. So it wasn't that I was like seeing them every day. No.
Stefan:
[1:08:27] Sorry, I don't know what that means. Let me ask you more clearly, did you sleep with both of them, I don't mean at the same time like in the same room, did you sleep with both of them while the relationships were overlapping, like when the new guy thought that you were his girlfriend?
Caller:
[1:08:49] Yes, that was once I slept with him, yes.
Stefan:
[1:08:53] Yeah, I'm not sure that once makes a huge difference. And so How long into the relationship with the new guy were you still sleeping with your ex?
Was this a couple of months?
Caller:
[1:09:04] Well, I mean I was seeing him for a few months, but I slept with him once I'm sorry, you were seeing the new guy a couple of months or your ex?
My ex, so I still I was talking with my ex.
I would consider this as cheating as well. So I would still have nice conversations with him.
And I was also, I kind of accepted the relationship offer from my new guy.
Stefan:
[1:09:32] And sorry, did you only sleep with your ex once when you were dating the new guy or was it a couple of times?
Caller:
[1:09:39] It was once. That's what I consider before the relationship.
Stefan:
[1:09:45] Okay, but if I were to ask your ex how many times, sorry, if I were to ask your boyfriend now, the current boyfriend, how many times he perceived you as having cheated on him, would he say once or would he say more?
Caller:
[1:09:59] I think he would say that, I don't know actually. I don't know what he, ex told him because I never talked with him.
Stefan:
[1:10:08] Oh, so your new boyfriend hasn't said you cheated on me three times, or he just says you cheated on me once?
Caller:
[1:10:14] He didn't say this, he just said cheated.
Stefan:
[1:10:17] He just said cheated, okay. So you consider the conversations kind of cheating and you slept with your ex a couple of times but only once when you and your current guy became boyfriend and girlfriend, is that right?
Caller:
[1:10:30] Yes.
Stefan:
[1:10:33] And how long into dating, like the boyfriend, girlfriend stuff with your new guy, how long was it in there that you slept with your ex?
Caller:
[1:10:44] Dating?
Stefan:
[1:10:45] Yeah, so when you and your boyfriend became boyfriend and girlfriend.
Caller:
[1:10:51] It was a few times.
Stefan:
[1:10:54] Sorry, what was a few times?
Caller:
[1:10:55] Because it was very short.
Stefan:
[1:10:58] No, no, sorry, what was a few times? I don't follow.
Caller:
[1:11:00] I don't know, three times, two times, I don't remember.
Stefan:
[1:11:04] So two, sorry, I thought it was once, so it's two or three times that you slept with your ex when you were the girlfriend of the new guy, is that right?
Caller:
[1:11:12] No, just once, and before that I slept with him.
Stefan:
[1:11:17] Okay, so let me ask you again, so at the beginning, you and your new boyfriend, you dated, and And then at some point you became boyfriend-girlfriend, right?
Okay. And it was after you became boyfriend-girlfriend that you slept with your ex?
And how long after you and the new guy became boyfriend-girlfriend did you sleep with your ex? Was it like a day, a week, a month?
Caller:
[1:11:43] It was a day.
Stefan:
[1:11:45] It was a day?
Caller:
[1:11:47] Yes.
Stefan:
[1:11:48] So you become boyfriend-girlfriend with your new guy and the next day you sleep with your ex is that right?
Caller:
[1:11:56] Not the next day.
Stefan:
[1:11:58] Oh, I thought you said it was a day. Sorry, I don't know what you mean.
Caller:
[1:12:01] No, no, no. It was like two weeks. I don't know. I don't remember.
Stefan:
[1:12:05] Okay, got it. And then how long was it before your ex told your new boyfriend about you sleeping with him?
Caller:
[1:12:14] I think a few days after.
Stefan:
[1:12:16] Okay, so very early on in the relationship with your new boyfriend and you You were sleeping with your new boyfriend at this point, is that right?
Okay, so very early on in the relationship with your new boyfriend, like two weeks into the relationship or three weeks into the relationship, he finds out that you're sleeping with him and you're sleeping with your ex, right?
And this was about almost a year ago, is that right?
Now, just out of curiosity, If I found out that a girl who was sleeping with me was also sleeping with her ex-husband, what do you think I would do?
Caller:
[1:13:07] Leave her.
Stefan:
[1:13:08] Well, sure, I mean, it would be disappointing, it would be upsetting, but I would be like…
Caller:
[1:13:13] At least talk.
Stefan:
[1:13:13] Yeah, like, no, I wouldn't say let's talk. I wouldn't say let's talk.
There's nothing to talk about.
I mean, no, I'm not trying to be mean or anything, I'm just like, I wouldn't… And I don't think any, I don't think any man with self-respect would say, let's keep going, but now I'm going to start insulting you.
Caller:
[1:13:34] But he didn't talk with me about that. He was just giving me hints that something happened and then he was angry. He didn't approach me.
You slept with him. This is what I know. Let's break up.
Stefan:
[1:13:47] Let's deal with it. Okay, so he used it to have power over you and to put you down.
That's a pretty terrible person, right? So he knows that you slept with your ex, he won't even tell you, he's just angry at you but won't tell you why.
But he doesn't want to break up, right?
Caller:
[1:14:07] He wanted me to apologize and…
Stefan:
[1:14:10] No, but he didn't tell you for what?
Caller:
[1:14:11] Probably.
He was hinting me, like, oh, if this person does this, or if they cheat, they need to tell the partner.
Stefan:
[1:14:19] Oh, so he wanted you maybe to confess?
Caller:
[1:14:23] To confess, yes.
Stefan:
[1:14:24] And did you know that he wanted you to confess or did you get a sense of that?
Caller:
[1:14:27] I had the sense of that, yes. I was terrified. I didn't even want to associate myself with what I've done.
Stefan:
[1:14:35] And what were you scared of if you told him, yes, sorry, I slept with my ex.
Probably, you know, this is not a good time for me and I'm really sorry to have hurt you, but we shouldn't date, right?
Caller:
[1:14:49] It's like almost to accept that I am a terrible person.
Stefan:
[1:14:56] I'm sorry, I don't follow. What do you mean?
Caller:
[1:14:59] It's to think, to start to understand that I'm a terrible person. This is what I've done.
Probably I was scared to have the same feelings that I had years before when I was sleeping with men, and I wanted to die at that stage.
I just, I lost all respect towards myself.
Stefan:
[1:15:25] A great promiscuity?
Caller:
[1:15:29] Promiscuity and no sleep and bulimia.
I just was terrified to feel again what I was doing and…
Stefan:
[1:15:42] Well, no, sorry, if you were terrified of the time when you were having too much sex, then sleeping with two men is not… That's not a way to solve it, right?
Caller:
[1:15:52] It wasn't too much sex, it was just I would see a guy, different guy, like I would have two guys and I would see them once a few weeks, for example, but they didn't know about existence of each other.
So I wasn't sleeping much, something like that.
Stefan:
[1:16:12] Okay.
Caller:
[1:16:12] But still, it was terrible.
Stefan:
[1:16:15] Right. Now, since you started dating, I know your first husband, you started dating when you were 15? Did I have that or was it 17?
Caller:
[1:17:00] I feel like that i'm scared that i don't have a family that.
I can't rely on myself probably that my son needs a father in his life i just keep pushing this ideas in my head.
Stefan:
[1:17:19] So, the idea of, let's say for some reason, you said, I'm going to be single for a year.
I'm not going to look, I'm not going to date, I'm not going to be dated upon or whatever, I'm not going to let guys ask me out, I don't know if you have to dress in a burqa or whatever, but if you were to say, I'm just going to be single for a year, what are your feelings or what feelings come up in that idea?
I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't be single for a year, but if you even think about it, what feelings come up?
Caller:
[1:17:53] Kind of a loss, because I want more kids, I want a stable family, and I feel like my time is running out, and I'm losing something.
Stefan:
[1:18:08] Are you in your early 30s at the moment, is that right?
Caller:
[1:18:11] Yes.
Stefan:
[1:18:14] I'm sorry?
Caller:
[1:18:15] Yes, I mean my own sins.
Stefan:
[1:18:18] Okay, so you want more kids and you want a stable family.
Do you think dating a guy you cheated on who thinks you're half evil and puts you down a lot, do you think that's a foundation on which you can build a happy stable family?
Caller:
[1:18:35] Of course.
Stefan:
[1:18:36] So then what are you doing? You have a goal and you're doing the opposite of that goal, which means you don't really have that goal. you.
Caller:
[1:18:47] I don't know what I'm doing.
Stefan:
[1:18:51] Now, what does your boyfriend hope to get out of you and I having a conversation today? What's his goal, do you think?
Caller:
[1:18:59] He wanted me to see, to take responsibility for my actions, to probably see the world as he signed.
He signed that he sees the world objectively, and I need to discover the truth about myself.
Stefan:
[1:19:15] But if he wants, so he wants you to be quite different, right?
I'm just curious why he doesn't choose someone who's already different rather than choose someone who's kind of traumatized and try and change them.
Like that doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Like if I want a convertible, like in a car, I want a car where the top goes down, I don't buy a station wagon and start sawing off the roof, right?
Caller:
[1:19:40] He said that he saw that he has power to help me to change and that's why he…
Stefan:
[1:19:50] He's like a white knight, he's Mr. Salvation, he's going to save you, he's going to fix you, is that the idea?
But why doesn't he choose someone that in his worldview doesn't need to be fixed?
Caller:
[1:20:09] I don't know.
Stefan:
[1:20:10] Sure you do. Yes, you do. You absolutely, you know this one.
Why, if he says, well, I'm going to take this girl who's messed up in my view and I'm just going to, I'm going to fix her, right?
And the way that I'm going to fix her is she's really traumatized from verbal abuse.
So the way I'm going to fix her trauma is to verbally abuse her.
Caller:
[1:20:33] Oh, we are going through silent treatment at the moment.
Stefan:
[1:20:36] Well, that's another form of abuse, though. It's another controlling mechanism, right?
Okay. Does it make sense to take someone who's been verbally abused and neglected and then try and fix them by verbally abusing and neglecting that person?
Caller:
[1:20:56] No.
Stefan:
[1:20:59] So he doesn't have a clue how to fix people. He doesn't have a clue how to fix people.
Why did he choose someone he views as broken, and then try to break them even more?
Why did he choose someone who he views as broken, and then try and break them even more?
Caller:
[1:21:17] I don't know. I just feel like he's punishing me for my behavior, for my shire no hi.
Stefan:
[1:21:23] Does punishment make hurt people better?
Caller:
[1:21:29] No. I'm just hurting so much now, so much more.
Stefan:
[1:21:34] But it's like taking someone with a broken arm and repeatedly hitting that broken arm with a baseball bat, saying this should fix it.
Caller:
[1:21:42] That's what he's telling me, that's what I'm doing to him. He's saying, you're just banning me on my childhood traumas every time you're doing something to me.
Stefan:
[1:21:51] Well, I don't know. I mean, if I had him on the line, maybe he would make that case.
But I do know that he's absolutely using your childhood trauma against you.
Like that I know for sure.
I mean, because you were verbally abused and neglected and he's verbally abusing and neglecting you, right?
Caller:
[1:22:10] So yeah he doesn't know in my view i just asked him to come to my asking to come to you as well i said let's go together and he said.
I will take a girl.
When we have a next when i have next normal relationship with a girl i will come to the show will take you to the show that also he's saying he's not gonna talk.
Stefan:
[1:22:33] With me or with you and me together because.
He's gonna get a nice normal girl on his next relationship and that's who he's going to…
Caller:
[1:22:43] And he will come to show you…
Stefan:
[1:22:45] Okay so he's breaking up with you isn't he?
Caller:
[1:22:49] We had this many times so I don't know when is the last breakup… is it this breakup?
Stefan:
[1:22:54] Yeah but if he's saying I'll talk to Steph when I have a nice normal girlfriend not with you he's saying that he doesn't see a future in the relationship right?
All right?
So why would you put up with this?
Why would you put up with being manipulated, have affection withdrawn, get the silent treatment, be verbally put down, be told you're not worthy, you're not good enough, he's gonna get a nice normal girlfriend next time and like, help me understand why, why is this okay with you?
Why is this something that is like compelling to you or even interesting to you?
Caller:
[1:23:38] Because it was always happening in my past. I think with my mom, she was always putting me down, withdrawing affection.
Stefan:
[1:23:46] Right, so you know how bad that is. That's what I don't understand.
Like my mom was crazy, so I don't, I didn't get married to a crazy woman because I know how bad that is. That's what I don't understand.
Right, so saying, well, my mom yelled at me and put me down, so when this guy yells at me and puts me down, it feels familiar.
Like, I get that. It's called a repetition compulsion, I suppose.
Or I talk about it in my book, Real-Time Relationships, Simon the Boxer, like a guy who's beaten up as a kid, ends up becoming a boxer because the only thing he knows how to manage is how to get beaten up, right?
That's the only thing, the only power he knows.
So you know exactly how painful it is to be yelled at and put down and neglected, right?
Caller:
[1:24:31] I also feel that he's controlling me because I think he wants me to listen to everything that he's telling me.
So how to behave with a dog, like, don't touch the dog.
He needs to lie down in a room. You cannot let him out.
Stefan:
[1:24:47] Okay. Does he? Okay. Don't talk to me about controlling men. Okay, please.
He's not controlling you. Is he? Unless you're currently chained to a radiator in the basement. Is he? Has he locked you in?
Can you get out? How can you? No, you're living with your parents, right?
Caller:
[1:25:01] Oh, he just gets so upset.
Stefan:
[1:25:02] No, no, no, okay. He gets upset. That's not control.
Caller:
[1:25:04] I don't listen to him.
Stefan:
[1:25:06] He doesn't control you. He says stuff.
Sorry, I don't know what that background noise is, but it's a little distracting.
I don't mean to control you. I'm just asking. Kind of, eee, screaming in the background, rusty pipes or something.
So yeah, he's not controlling you. What are you talking about?
I mean, the people who got kidnapped at the Raven Israel on October 7th, yeah, they got controlled.
You're not controlled.
I mean, so he gets upset. I understand from your history that getting upset, that somebody getting mean with you is very scary, but that's exactly why you shouldn't put up with it.
Right, so there's something I'm missing, I don't understand, and I genuinely mean that, like it's something I'm missing.
You know how bad all of this behavior is, you know how much it hurts you, so why are you doing it? Why are you putting yourself through this?
Caller:
[1:26:13] Probably because it's familiar, and I just kept repeating all the time.
Stefan:
[1:26:21] Okay, so if you prefer what is familiar over what is healthy, what's the problem?
Right, so if you want this sick, abusive, manipulative, whatever, right?
If that's what you want, because that's what's familiar, then why are you calling me?
Caller:
[1:26:45] Because I want to change.
Stefan:
[1:26:46] Okay, so you want to change.
Caller:
[1:26:49] I want to find out the truth.
Stefan:
[1:26:51] All right, so you want to change. Now, what's the key to change?
Caller:
[1:27:02] I guess, stay single for a while.
Stefan:
[1:27:05] Well, I don't know. I mean, that's more a prescription. I don't tell people what to do, obviously, and you shouldn't listen to people who tell you what to do, except maybe a lawyer.
Caller:
[1:27:14] Until I'm healed. Until I'm healed at least.
Stefan:
[1:27:17] Well, healed is just another word. So, no. The key to change is you draw a big line in the sand, right? Big lion in the sand.
And you say, never again.
Never again. I've been yelled at for three decades, never again.
I've been manipulated for three decades, never again.
I've been put down for three decades, never again.
We're done with that. That's over, that's past, that's not happening, I'm not doing it, never again.
Is it okay for someone to tell you you have a fundamental flaw in being a good person? You're just you're a terrible person, right?
Is that okay if someone claims to care about you?
Caller:
[1:28:23] Okay, yes. If someone wants to care about me, then yes, it's normal.
Stefan:
[1:28:29] It's normal for someone who cares about you to tell you that you're a terrible person?
No, it's not. See, either people don't know you, in which case, who cares what they say, or they do know you, in which case, they better treat you well.
Now, treating people well doesn't mean you can't be tweaked, that you can't do things a little better. That's fine. That happens, right?
Caller:
[1:28:53] I just feel like whenever he was giving me love, this is what I wanted to give him back.
I just needed a little bit more time.
Stefan:
[1:29:02] Did you just bring the L word into a guy who manipulates and puts you down?
The hell are you talking about? Love?
What what are you talking about love? Oh, you mean he gave you affection like you give a dog a treat?
He gave you approval so that you'd get addicted to his approval so he can troll you or try to by taking away his approval and giving you disapproval and rejection and coldness, right?
Caller:
[1:29:27] Yeah, is that love? That's that's not love.
Stefan:
[1:29:30] That's not love.
Caller:
[1:29:31] She gave me a fortune.
Stefan:
[1:29:33] That's not love. Love is when you say to someone, I don't want you to change a thing.
I don't want you to change a thing.
Can you imagine being in a relationship where you didn't have to change anything?
Caller:
[1:29:54] I cannot.
Stefan:
[1:29:56] Right. Now, are there things in your life you need to change?
Sure, I think so. I mean, it's true of all of us, right?
You probably don't want to be living with the people who abused you as a child and all of that.
You probably want to get your son out of there too, that kind of stuff.
Exactly. You can't be in a healthy relationship where someone says there's something fundamentally wrong with you.
That's not being loved, that's being judged and abused.
And you, my friend, don't have a choice about this.
None of this is really about you. None of this is really about you.
Who's it all about? What's it all about? Who do you have to change for?
Caller:
[1:30:47] For him.
Stefan:
[1:30:48] For who?
Caller:
[1:30:50] For him, he wants me to change for him.
Stefan:
[1:30:53] Are you talking about your boyfriend?
No! Who do you have to change for?
Caller:
[1:31:01] For my son, I have to change.
Stefan:
[1:31:03] For your son. You cannot model dysfunctional relationships for your son.
You can't. Like you don't have a choice, Because you have to do what's best for your son, And every day he sees you being put down or yelled at or ignored or neglected or, Manipulation and all this kind of stuff his respect for you goes down and down and down now How easy is it to parent if your child doesn't respect you?
Caller:
[1:31:36] He doesn't respect me.
Stefan:
[1:31:37] How easy is it to parent if your child doesn't respect you?
Caller:
[1:31:41] It's not possible.
Stefan:
[1:31:42] Well, it's hard, right? Very hard. What happens to your son if he doesn't respect authority?
Caller:
[1:31:53] He ends up in that license.
Stefan:
[1:31:55] He could go to jail.
Caller:
[1:31:57] Exactly.
Stefan:
[1:31:58] Now what would you do to keep your son out of going to jail?
Caller:
[1:32:02] Stop having dysfunctional relationships.
Stefan:
[1:32:04] Well, stop having shitty relationships.
Because you need to, you want your son to change, right?
You want him to stop being so defiant and all of that, right?
You want him to stop being so addicted to screwing, Like you want your son to change, right?
So you have to change.
Because you'll never be able to get your son to change if you don't improve.
Now, if you turn things around and you go from having bad relationships to either no relationships or good relationships, and usually you have to go from bad relationships to no relationship to a good relationship, usually it's a bit of a desert you have to cross, then your son will see, oh wow, look at that, look at what improvement is possible.
Look at what my mom's been able to do.
And then he will start to translate to himself. Wow, if she can do that, what could I do?
You can't make a fat child lose weight if you're fat. All you can do is lose weight and hope to inspire the child. Does that make sense?
Caller:
[1:33:07] Yes, it does.
Stefan:
[1:33:09] So every time you let the boyfriend put you down, manipulate you, chill you out, neglect you withhold a faction and you run around chasing after this guy, what's it doing to your son?
Caller:
[1:33:24] He is seeing this and of course that's what he will do in the future.
Stefan:
[1:33:32] Did you give your son, your parents, to chase a man?
Caller:
[1:33:42] Say it again, sorry.
Stefan:
[1:33:43] Did you give your son when he was two to your parents in order for you to chase a man?
Well, why did he end up with your parents then? I thought you had moved to be with some guy. I'm sorry if I misunderstood this.
Caller:
[1:33:57] No, I went to Australia to learn English and to become a doctor here.
Stefan:
[1:34:02] To become a doctor?
Caller:
[1:34:03] I wanted, yes, I was a doctor and I wanted to work here.
But from what my psychologist told me is, I was actually escaping my parents.
Stefan:
[1:34:14] I'm sorry, I thought you said you hadn't been single since you were 15 years old.
Caller:
[1:34:19] Oh no, I mean, I was with my ex. Then when my son was born, then we split with my ex.
I was probably single when my son was born, but then in Australia, obviously, I had relationships. So I wasn't single.
Stefan:
[1:34:36] And why didn't you, you didn't bring your son with you because you wanted to be a doctor?
Caller:
[1:34:42] Because I needed to work and study.
Stefan:
[1:34:45] No, no, you can, no, no, hang on, hang on.
You can work, wait, wait, you can work and study and still be with your son.
Caller:
[1:34:56] I mean, I wouldn't have enough finance to cover the cost, his school costs.
Stefan:
[1:35:02] No, your son was two, what school costs?
Caller:
[1:35:09] Like, I mean, I wouldn't be able to take him to English school with me.
Stefan:
[1:35:14] I understand that, but even if you had had him around and your parents had taken him when you went to school, I mean, you're living with your parents now.
Would it have been better to live with your parents and maintain the bond with your son when he was two?
Caller:
[1:35:27] Of course. Of course. I shouldn't have left him.
I shouldn't. I made a terrible decision. I should have learned English in Ukraine, and I should have become financially independent and take my son with me, and then maybe together come to Australia.
That would have been a much better decision.
Stefan:
[1:35:48] So why didn't you bring him to Australia?
Caller:
[1:35:54] Probably because at that stage my parents were saying to me, yes, you leave, we will look after your son.
They were trying to be supportive.
Stefan:
[1:36:06] No, that's not why you didn't bring him. That's how you were able to leave him.
Why didn't you bring your son to Australia? I'm not saying whether it's the right or wrong decision, I just would like to know.
Caller:
[1:36:17] I just didn't know how I'm going to be able to look after him when I have to be in a college from nine to three, every day.
Then, yeah, like that.
Stefan:
[1:36:34] All right. No, I can certainly understand that's a, can't exactly bring a two-year-old into your college classroom, I get that.
Okay, that's just, so you went to Australia to learn English and to study to be a doctor, is that right?
Caller:
[1:36:48] To pass exams to become a doctor.
Stefan:
[1:36:52] And why couldn't you learn English and study to be a doctor in Ukraine?
Caller:
[1:36:59] Well, I studied to be a doctor in Ukraine, and I should have learned English there, but I decided to…
I thought it's going to be faster, it's going to take only a few years for me to pass all exams and get to work and take my son, but it was much more challenging.
Stefan:
[1:37:24] You can study medicine and you can study English in Ukraine, and whether you have your parents or some other friends or groups or something like that to help with your son, you could have stayed in Ukraine and stayed with your son.
Caller:
[1:37:41] I don't know. I think I was escaping the situation, to be honest.
It was probably so terrible.
I don't remember the way I was feeling.
Stefan:
[1:37:50] And the situation, what do you mean by the situation? Do you mean your ex or your son or your parents?
Caller:
[1:37:56] I mean everything, to be honest. I just didn't know what to do at that stage, where to go, who to become, because it wasn't my choice.
It was never my choice. to do something, to do anything, I would be judged if I decide, say, to go and work as a barista.
They wanted something, parents wanted something, and they wanted full control over me. So if I step aside, I would be judged.
Stefan:
[1:38:28] I'm not sure what step, what does step aside mean?
Caller:
[1:38:32] Not listening to him, to them.
Stefan:
[1:38:34] Okay.
Caller:
[1:38:36] Like making a different choice.
Stefan:
[1:38:37] I mean, I assume, I'm sure this wasn't any particular causality, but I also assume that it was a lot easier to date in Australia without a two-year-old around.
Caller:
[1:38:53] Yes, but I wasn't dating as much. I was working and learning English, so say I would come back home after 3pm and I would prepare for the exams till night.
And then it would happen daily the same. And then I would have a job and prepare for the exams since from 6 a.m. to 12 p.m.
So my dating was on the weekends sometimes, I was spending time.
Stefan:
[1:39:21] MG And did you become a doctor?
Caller:
[1:39:23] IR I did.
Stefan:
[1:39:24] MG Oh, wow.
Caller:
[1:39:25] IR And then I had another I.T. degree.
I worked, I couldn't find a job in medicine here because I still had overseas qualifications.
For a year I couldn't find a job.
Stefan:
[1:39:39] Sorry, you went to Australia to become a doctor and then you moved to a place where you couldn't be a doctor?
Caller:
[1:39:47] I wanted… Well, it was my parents' wish for me to become a doctor.
Stefan:
[1:39:51] No, no, no, you're an adult. You can't just say my parents, right? You're an adult.
Caller:
[1:39:55] Yeah, yeah.
Stefan:
[1:39:56] So you moved to Australia and then you left Australia and moved to a place where your degree was not recognized.
Caller:
[1:40:04] No, no, no. I studied medicine in Ukraine, then I came to Australia to prove my qualifications, but also I needed to get residency here.
So I was studying nursing at the same time to get my qualifications when I was working and preparing for my exams.
I was receiving a degree, but then I I realized I cannot work as a nurse, like two semesters I believe, in the study, because it was just way too painful for me to watch people losing independence.
So I decided to study IT.
I graduated with an IT degree, and then I received a job offer from IT company.
Stefan:
[1:40:52] So that's when I was able to- Okay, sorry, sorry, I wanna make sure.
You qualified to be a doctor in Ukraine, right?
Caller:
[1:40:58] Yes.
Stefan:
[1:40:59] And then you move to Australia to study to be a nurse.
Caller:
[1:41:03] Just to get the residency here, to be able to live in this country.
Stefan:
[1:41:07] If you could practice as a doctor in Ukraine, what was the reason for not doing that?
Caller:
[1:41:13] I had a feeling that the war is going to, like, it's going to come much worse, become much worse.
Stefan:
[1:41:19] Oh, the war.
Caller:
[1:41:21] Yeah, because since 2013, it was just all mess, and I just had a feeling that, I don't want my son to be in the country who is in a war state.
And I had multiple opportunities to come back.
Stefan:
[1:41:36] But sorry, didn't your son stay in the country?
Caller:
[1:41:41] He stayed, yeah, but it was constantly just becoming more aggressive.
And I wanted him to give an opportunity to also learn a different culture, learn English within this environment, because I realized that he's probably not, will not be able to, have another language if he, if we stay in Ukraine.
And I wanted him to come to school and start school in Australia.
Stefan:
[1:42:12] So you've not, you've not practiced as a doctor, is that right?
Caller:
[1:42:16] I did practice for a few months. So I received a job offer from IT company.
I worked for four months and then I received and then I received an offer to work at the hospital as a doctor. So I worked there for four months.
I had an au pair who was looking after my son, but then my son just spiraled down at school at home.
I couldn't work with him. So I had to come back to work.
I had remote work most of the time. So I was able to take him to school, take him to activities, look after him during the day.
Stefan:
[1:42:56] So all of the education that you pursued didn't really add up to much because your son was acting out, right?
Like, you couldn't practice as a doctor because your son was unmanageable, is that right?
Caller:
[1:43:14] No, it's not because of my son, like, he added to this, but I didn't think that that's right.
Stefan:
[1:43:19] Sorry, I'm getting a little lost here, I apologize. So why did you only practice medicine for a couple of months, being a doctor?
Caller:
[1:43:30] Because I compared this with IT, the salary was the same, and the challenge was the same.
I liked challenging tasks.
And then I felt that in medicine, I'm just in constant rush to see people.
I didn't feel that I can properly help them. Um, I feel that a lot of things that people have, like medical problems, health, health issues could be avoided by changing their lifestyle.
And I didn't like, uh, pharmaceutical companies are pushing medicine.
I just didn't want to do. I need to have anything with this healthcare.
Stefan:
[1:44:21] It's kind of tough for society to spend huge amounts of time training you as a doctor and get a grand total of a couple of months of doctoring out of you, but that's neither here nor there I guess.
Okay, so how can I best help you as we sort of get to the closing part of the conversation? What do you think would be the best thing to focus on?
Caller:
[1:44:43] How to get my self-identity back, just understanding…
Stefan:
[1:44:47] No, you know how to do that. No, you know how to do that. So you need to not be around people who are abusing you.
I mean, am I wrong about that?
Caller:
[1:45:00] No, you're not.
Stefan:
[1:45:01] Yeah, so if you have had a lot of verbal abuse in your life and manipulation and all of that, then it doesn't make much sense, I think, to spend a lot of time around people who keep poking their old wounds. They never heal, right?
If somebody keeps hitting your arm with a stick, your arm is never going to heal.
Caller:
[1:45:21] Yes.
Stefan:
[1:45:21] So that you know what to do. What else?
Caller:
[1:45:31] I just don't know. I don't know how to focus on my child. I don't know how to…
Stefan:
[1:45:35] No, no, no, you don't focus on your child. You focus on yourself.
Caller:
[1:45:39] Probably, yeah.
Stefan:
[1:45:40] Yeah, you focus on yourself, right? You know the old thing in the airplane, you gotta put the mask over yourself before you help anyone else?
Yeah, I don't imagine there's much you can do, I'm no expert, obviously this is just my amateur opinion, but I don't know that there's much that you can do to help your child before you help yourself.
Caller:
[1:46:02] Yes, exactly.
Stefan:
[1:46:04] Because if you tell him, don't be in abusive relationships or don't be in relationships with people who are mean, and then you're in a relationship with someone who's mean…
It's a little confusing for the guy, right?
Have you have you tried talk therapy at all?
Um, I had psychologists in the past and how did that go for you?
Caller:
[1:46:30] They were giving me good advice. I started changing a lot Then that's when I realized I don't want to be a cheetah.
This is so terrible and even now I Don't even want to talk to guys and if they talk to me I said I and I don't want relationship.
Like, you can talk to me, but I am not cheating anymore.
Stefan:
[1:46:55] And the guy, he's still your boyfriend, right? The guy?
Caller:
[1:46:59] Well, he's giving me silent treatment, and he wants to break up with me, so I guess ex-partner, partner, I don't know.
Stefan:
[1:47:07] Well, why are you being passive?
Do you want to be in this relationship?
Assuming nothing changes, like we have this fantasy about I want to be in this relationship if this, this, this, and this is totally different, right?
That's fantasy, it's a fantasy.
Because then you're rejecting the person by being with them, saying I'll be with you as long as you're not you or half of you, the evil half or whatever is gone, right?
So you're rejecting the person while you claim to care about the person, which is why there's no point being with someone you want to fundamentally change because you're rejecting who they are while saying I like you but I hate you but you're really worthy but you're unworthy but I love you but you're not worthy like it's just crazy it drives you crazy, right?
Caller:
[1:48:10] I guess it's also he's sending me some quotes and one of the quotes was by Jordan Peterson and he was saying that if you are in relationship, if you're married, I think he's talking about marriage and my boyfriend doesn't see different relationship and marriage.
He's saying that you need to work through this together.
If everyone has demons inside And if someone opens up about their demons, you need to be there.
You need to help the person, not break up with them.
Stefan:
[1:48:52] Yeah, well, I don't know. I mean, let's not get into Jordan Peterson and what happened to him over the last couple of years.
Drug addict, coma, whatever, right? So, yeah, this idea that relationships are tough and you're fighting these demons and you gotta wrestle and that's all nonsense.
It's all absolute nonsense. What that is, is difficult people saying, you have to put up with my shit or you're an immature person.
That's terrible.
You know how many demons are in my wife? Zero. Zero!
She's not possessed. She's not… Jungian shadow does not take her… like, it's nonsense.
You love each other, you're virtuous to each other. I mean occasionally you might have a little chafing here and there, but…
It's great.
You ought to wrestle with these demons. No, no, there are enough demons out there in the world. You don't need them in your marital bed.
Caller:
[1:49:57] Yes, I agree with you.
Stefan:
[1:50:00] I mean, I can't imagine what my wife would say to me if I said, I want to put pictures up of genocidal tyrants all over our house.
You imagine waking up every day and you're staring up at Stalin's armpit? Jesus.
Caller:
[1:50:17] No, I need to refocus my energy to my work and everything else apart from relationships.
Stefan:
[1:50:26] Well, I don't know about work and this and that, but you need to be a moral hero to your son.
You need to be a moral hero to your son. If you want your son to give up his bad behavior, you need to give up all the bad behavior in your life.
Caller:
[1:50:47] Yes.
Stefan:
[1:50:48] Otherwise, you're stuffing your face with chocolate saying to your kid, don't eat candy.
Caller:
[1:50:55] Exactly.
Stefan:
[1:50:56] He's just looking at me and doing the only thing that I can tell you It's focus on what's moral. What's good? What's virtuous?
Now it's not virtuous to let people put you down, It doesn't help you and for whatever that's worth it really doesn't help the other person, You indulge you indulging your boyfriend's manipulative side is not helping him you giving him power over you It's bad because he can't handle power. He uses it in a bad way.
[1:51:31] I mean if he's so wonderful and healed and perfect and mature, then why on earth would he be dating someone who slept with her ex and him?
So he's messed up too, frankly. I mean if he wants to call me, I'll say this to him directly or whatever, but he'll probably call me and just give me the silent treatment so it'd just be a solo show anyway, right? Be a monologue.
Maybe he'd give me hand puppets, I don't know, some sort of sign language, probably two fingers.
But yeah, he's no one to give you advice.
He's no one to say you're inferior. He's no one to say, boy oh boy, you just got to fix yourself and be like me.
I mean, yeah, while I give you the silent treatment, I won't kiss you, I break up with you and I'll talk about oh I'll have a call with Steph with my next quality girlfriend.
Sorry that's just being a jerk and there's lots of other words I could use and I'm sure that there's great things about him maybe he's smart maybe he's well-read and maybe he's a good conversationalist but as far as someone to trust your heart with? No.
The moment someone tells you here's what I'm vulnerable to is the moment if you care about them at all you swear you're never gonna do that, right?
[1:52:49] If I have a friend who's really sensitive about his height, I'm not gonna mock his height. Because that's being an asshole.
It doesn't toughen people up, it just breaks them down. And he knows you've been verbally abused, neglected, and what is he doing?
Verbally abusing and neglecting you, right? Being punishing and rewarding.
Like, no, you just, you don't do that. You don't do that. That's not right, that's not moral, that's decent, not decent, it's not caring, it's not loving at all.
I don't know, is he tall and good looking? Is that what does it for you?
Caller:
[1:53:28] He's good-looking. We have good conversations.
I think he's more smart than other people.
He's smarter than other people.
Stefan:
[1:53:42] Who cares about intelligence? What you need for love is wisdom.
Because here's the thing, without virtue, intelligent people are really fucking dangerous.
Really dangerous, I don't need to tell you this. If they're not virtuous, they're really dangerous.
Like the amount of damage I could do out in the world with my language skills is enormous.
I could be a world-striding sophist and just disassemble the planet.
I could do really terrible things with my verbal abilities and my capacities to role play and like so if you've got a really smart guy, he's really smart.
It's like that's dangerous unless he's really virtuous.
Caller:
[1:54:22] He's smart. He's smart. He was in debating club and I was I'm feeling I am in the baiting club debating club every day.
That's how it feels to be intelligent.
Stefan:
[1:54:32] It's not supposed to be used as a weapon to get you laid or to dominate other people, or like it's supposed to be there to bring wisdom and insight to people so that they can live better lives.
That's what intelligence is for. It's not for winning, it's not for dominating, it's not for manipulating, it's, I mean, you can do all of it with that, but that's, um, that's pretty shitty.
Caller:
[1:54:55] I like how you described it, it's so much so true.
Stefan:
[1:54:59] So yeah, people who are really witty, good debaters, smart and well read and it's like, yeah, that's got real potential, but you got to keep a huge eye out for whether they're using their forces for good or not.
Caller:
[1:55:13] It's just he believes that he's quite objective. He says, oh, I listened to Stefan and I know or crate and I know psychology and I am objective, other people are not and I think that's where he's wrong.
Stefan:
[1:55:27] Okay, so is he objective because he views objectivity to be a great virtue and a value, right?
That's good, it's good to be objective for him, is that right?
Caller:
[1:55:39] What he's doing right now is not good.
Stefan:
[1:55:40] No, no, no, but does he, he views objectivity as a good thing?
Caller:
[1:55:45] Yes.
Stefan:
[1:55:45] Okay, does he think you're objective? Then why is he with you?
If objectivity is a good thing and makes him better and wiser and trustable and all kinds of good stuff, then why would he be with someone he says is subjective or very subjective, right?
Caller:
[1:56:05] Yeah, who is evil.
Stefan:
[1:56:08] Well it's, if objectivity is a virtue, then why would you get involved with someone who you call subject.
I mean, I think rationality is a virtue, so I wouldn't date witches, right?
I wouldn't date mystics, I wouldn't date, you know, mediums or seers or all this kinds of nonsense, right?
I think maturity is a virtue, so I wouldn't date someone who just yelled whenever they got upset because that's stupid it's immature.
[1:56:49] So if he is so objective and he is so wise and so smart, then why is he with you?
Well, he's with you because he feels dominant relative to you.
He feels superior and he puffs up his ego by putting you down.
And it's all very sad. It's all very tragic.
And it's all very hollow. Like it's not real.
He just gets self-esteem by feeling superior to you.
Again, unless I'm missing the mark in the relationship as a whole.
But you don't claim you care about people and then put them down.
That's just awful behavior.
But yeah, you need to aim for virtue.
And that means not letting people put you down, being self-critical where appropriate, that's fine, not self-attacking or anything like that.
And not having people around you who put you down is pretty important, I think. And it's especially for your son. I'm sorry?
Caller:
[1:57:46] What about repent? He's asking me to repent.
He says that I you have to repent for your past actions You have to do it Otherwise, I think he's just quite scared that I'll repeat it again.
Stefan:
[1:57:59] What your boyfriend?
I'm sorry. Are we still talking about your boyfriend having credibility with you?
Okay, so if he thinks you've done really bad things in the past that you need to repent for right Then you can say what are your past actions that you need to repent for and what would he say?
Caller:
[1:58:23] That I started all this.
Stefan:
[1:58:25] So he would say only you have past actions to repent for, I have no past actions to repent for Because I'm perfect. Is that what he would say?
Caller:
[1:58:33] No, he will say that you started this behavior. You cheated on me first.
You didn't appreciate my childhood.
Stefan:
[1:58:40] No No, if you stay you don't get to criticize That's a basic fact of life.
So yes, you cheated on him. That was bad. You cheated on him. But he stayed.
So if you stay, you give up fundamental criticisms. That's just the deal.
So if he says, well, you cheated on me, it's like, hey, you stayed.
You're responsible for staying. Now, if you stayed, you didn't stay to just bitch at me. You didn't just stay to put me down, because that would be kind of psychotic. right?
So you stayed, so I don't have anything to apologize for because I was clearly good enough for you to keep sleeping with, for you to keep dating, for you to keep going out for dinners with and having all these big and deep conversations.
So I don't have anything to apologize for because you chose to stay.
I mean, if I keep going back to the same restaurant and there's hundreds of restaurants around, I keep going back to the same restaurant do I then get to say this restaurant has so much to apologize to me for?
Caller:
[1:59:54] It's insane.
Stefan:
[1:59:55] It's insane. It's insane. He's just trying to grind you down.
He's trying to boss you around. He's trying to feel Well, I'm in the right and you're in the wrong and I'm good and you're bad.
Oh, so boring. It's so boring.
Do you have things that you regret in your life? Yes, everybody does.
Everybody does. Now, if he wants to inspire you to apologize for things that he's done wrong, what should he do?
Let's say that he really thinks you've done something wrong and he wants to inspire you to apologize.
Caller:
[2:00:33] He needs to apologize.
Stefan:
[2:00:34] Yeah, he needs to model behavior. He needs to show you how great apologizing is.
Look, I apologize and I'm happier for it, so, you know, you can do what you want, but I'm telling you, right, he's the fat guy yelling at you to stop eating.
It's like, hey, if stop eating is so good, put the fucking fork down yourself, chunk-a-thon. one.
You model the good behavior.
And if other people like it, great. And if they don't like it, okay, then I've still got the… Like if I'm losing weight, I've got a bunch of fat people around me, I lose weight.
Let's say they get really mad at me and they, oh, you're making me feel bad, oh, you think you're so much better, oh, you're wasting away.
It's like, okay, well, then they don't lose weight. So what?
I've still lost weight. I'm still better off, aren't I?
You can't lose by doing the right thing, but you'll always lose by bossing other people to do the right thing while being hypocritical yourself.
Caller:
[2:01:30] Yeah, of course.
Stefan:
[2:01:32] So yeah, when people come to you and say, you've got so much to apologize for, it's a funny thing.
Caller:
[2:01:39] But you have as well. I told him you have as well, so many things to apologize for, and he's just, he's missing it.
Stefan:
[2:01:47] Okay, yeah, so so I thought I mean this is just the you're all playing hot potato with disliking each other look come on, If there was no sex involved if he was a woman if he was not if he was like 70 years old and fat and bald, Would you hang away I would stay with him Look, it's just lust it's sex.
It's looks and all of that and and I get that.
I mean that's important in life But if you make that the basis of your relationship, that's just terrible hedonism, right?
Caller:
[2:02:21] That's why you asked me this question, why I'm staying with him.
Stefan:
[2:02:24] Right, yeah, because he's good-looking, I'm sure there's good sex, and you know, there's fun times, and yeah, okay.
But you know, life is not a funfair when you have a kid, right?
It's not a circus. You've got to actually do the right thing.
Caller:
[2:02:39] Yeah, and my everyone that I know hates him and everyone, Including his mom Is asking me to leave him Everyone my friends his family my family my sister.
Wait, his mom is telling you to leave him Yeah, and you still gotta call me, What, Like when we had a big fight, like he had a big fight with me at her house, she said Lena, it's best for you if you leave him.
Stefan:
[2:03:19] Yeah you could have mentioned that a little earlier.
Caller:
[2:03:24] I should have listened.
Stefan:
[2:03:25] No, no, no, keep trying, come on, what does his mom know about him? He only raised him.
I'm sure you know way better than his mom does what he's like.
Yeah, I would say you really got it.
Caller:
[2:03:43] He was physically abusive as well. And he didn't apologize for this.
He was physically abusive.
Stefan:
[2:03:50] What does that mean?
Caller:
[2:03:55] He hit me, put me on the floor, and then poured some water over me.
When I was walking, I heard his fist, like I heard the sound of his fist almost hitting my head, but he didn't hit me, he missed me. I got quite scared.
Stefan:
[2:04:11] Sorry, he did hit you or he didn't hit you?
Caller:
[2:04:15] He, like, dropped me on the floor, and then he dropped me on the couch, he was like shaking me, and…
Stefan:
[2:04:22] Oh, so he put his hands on you in anger?
Caller:
[2:04:25] He did, yes.
Stefan:
[2:04:26] Well…
Caller:
[2:04:26] He almost hit me, almost.
Stefan:
[2:04:28] And he's the guy who says you have so much to apologize for?
Caller:
[2:04:33] Yes.
Stefan:
[2:04:34] Okay, so are you going to wait for things to escalate? Is that what you're waiting for?
Caller:
[2:04:39] He said that it's my fault.
Stefan:
[2:04:42] No, no, of course he says it's your fault. fault. Of course he does.
Of course he says it's your fault. That's what abusers do.
So what's the plan? Are you going to wait for him to hit you for real?
Are you going to wait for him to put you in the hospital?
Are you going to wait for him to give you a black eye or break your arm?
Or like, what's the plan here?
Caller:
[2:04:57] I just feel like I'm going to end up in the hospital after just a little bit more. Just in some psychological facility.
Stefan:
[2:05:06] Well, you know, we can make up all the scare scenarios we want, but you do have a physical threat which is a guy who's violent physically, right?
Now, if your son, when he gets older, he gets involved with a woman who pushes him on the floor, who pours water on him, who's physically violent, who pretends to hit him, what would you tell him to do?
Caller:
[2:05:32] Leave immediately.
Stefan:
[2:05:33] No, why? She's really pretty, mom. She's a good conversationalist.
She, she, she reads Jordan Peterson.
That's enough, isn't it?
Caller:
[2:05:45] Listen, Ron.
Stefan:
[2:05:47] No, but she's got a nice figure, mom!
Caller:
[2:05:53] Doesn't matter.
Stefan:
[2:05:54] Why are you not taking advice you would give to others? Why is your son so worthy of protection, but you're not?
Caller:
[2:06:08] I have to. I have to. and this is so ridiculous that I allowed so much guilt to enter my mind.
Stefan:
[2:06:21] Well, it's more than a lamp, right? You pursued this out of, and hopefully you'll get a chance to read my book, Real-Time Relationships, about this sort of why we get drawn back into these scenarios like we are as children.
You're used to managing crazy people, you're used to managing verbal abuse, and you kind don't know what to do in a relationship if that's not happening. You get a lot of anxiety.
Because if you denormalize being treated badly, all your relationships where there's bad behavior will be really challenged and it's a tough process to stop being abused.
It's a tough process because all of your relationships where you were abused and continue to be abused mostly fall apart.
Yeah I mean I hope that you can get a chance to talk to a good therapist and you know please you have a child you cannot put yourself in physically dangerous situation. You can't do it.
Like it's it's not allowable when you have a child to put yourself in physically dangerous situation.
Caller:
[2:07:34] I understand, I see grown-up males now who have this kind of, who had this kind of family dynamics and they just, they just torn apart their lives also, they are ruined.
Stefan:
[2:07:51] Your son is going to grow into a man who dates, sorry, your son is going to grow into a man who will be like the men you date.
I mean, that's what he will do because he'll look at mom and he'll say, well, mom had me.
I want to have kids. That's what his biology does, whether he wants to have kids consciously. His biology says, well, my mom was successful at reproducing.
What kind of man did she choose? Okay, I should be that kind of man.
Because that's what it means. No, no, that's what it means to be successful at reproduction.
I have to be like the men mom dates in order to successfully reproduce because that's what evolution tells us to do.
Caller:
[2:08:40] I am glad that he tells me I hate him. I hate your relationship.
Stefan:
[2:08:45] Yeah I get that but that's because he's not reached sexual maturity yet.
Once he becomes an adult he will say I have to be like the men my mom dates and there's nothing eatable about it it's just that they are the template of sexual success of reproductive success.
Whatever women reward with sex is what men gravitate towards and he's going to be like well I mean sorry to talk about your boy this way but when he gets to be a young adult he's gonna be like well I want a date I want to have a girlfriend I want to have sex and the template he's gonna have is you and your boyfriends.
So who does he have to be in order to get a girlfriend? He's got to be like your boyfriend.
Well there's only one way to stop that.
Caller:
[2:09:40] I have to stop dating abusive guys.
I have to change first.
Stefan:
[2:09:47] Now there may be something you have to apologize for to your son, like I'm sorry I gave you this bad template and I'm Sorry that I let my lust interfere with what was healthy for you.
I understand what is but this is healthy but kind of wanted to hear your view because i felt so much guilt and he still didn't understand, am i wrong to that extent that i need to apologize because i started yeah no no that's all nonsense no that's all nonsense the only people you should let improve you are those who lead by example the only people you should let improve you are those who lead by example not those who nag and bitch and moan and complain and put you down, like that's terrible.
That's about pathetic self-esteem trying to prop themself up on someone's old wounds.
The only people I let improve in my life, the only people I let try to improve me are those who lead by example.
Caller:
[2:10:49] Yes. And I feel that, I just feel it, it's correct because when he was giving me love in the beginning, that's when I had the biggest change.
Stefan:
[2:10:58] Are you gonna use the L word again, really? Are you really gonna use the L word again?
Caller:
[2:11:03] Affection. Affection.
Stefan:
[2:11:05] Yeah, but no, it wasn't even that much of affection. It was like, well, I know that you need affection, and men know that women like affection a lot, so…
Caller:
[2:11:14] Yes. And that he was doing.
Stefan:
[2:11:16] Well, no, yeah, so he gives you, this is like a cult with the love bomb, right?
They call it love, but they just, oh, you're the greatest, you're the most wonderful, and women do it by giving sex to men, because men know that women like affection, and women know that men like sex, so you just cross-pollinate each other, and then you just end up manipulating relating each other.
Caller:
[2:11:34] This is what happened.
Stefan:
[2:11:38] All right, well, we've had a good old long chat. How are you doing?
Caller:
[2:11:45] I'm centered, put it this way.
I found a good, solid foundation to stand on.
Stefan:
[2:11:55] Good advice. I mean, hopefully you can think of some talk therapy.
I'm a big fan of it, but because it's a big thing you're taking on.
But obviously I wish you the best.
I'm really incredibly sorry about what happened to you as a child.
I mean, that's not your fault.
Absolutely nothing to do with that was your fault and it's really terrible what happened to you and I hope that you can get to a place, I'm sure you can get to a place of peace and reason with people and I hope that you will keep me posted about how things are going and I wish the very best for you of course and your son as well.
Caller:
[2:12:30] Thank you, Stefan. Thank you so much for listening to me and giving me advice.
Stefan:
[2:12:33] You're welcome, my friend. Take care.
Caller:
[2:12:36] Okay, thank you.
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