0:00 - Setting the Stage
2:07 - Love, Loss, and Legacy
4:17 - Progress and Pitfalls
5:56 - Reflections on Relationships
9:12 - The Texting Dilemma
22:09 - The Path to Parenthood
24:53 - Seeking the Perfect Match
29:21 - Unpacking Relationship Dynamics
33:57 - Framing Relationships
36:02 - Lessons from Law School
37:45 - Recognition of Vulnerability
57:14 - Seeking Stability and Peace in Relationships
1:09:31 - Final Break from Family
1:12:41 - Contemplating Restitution
1:15:57 - Fear of Repeating Father's Fate
1:53:32 - Unwillingness to Delegate Judgment
1:56:50 - Surrendering Power and Trust
The caller provides updates on their life, mentioning progress in relationships, therapy, finances, and concerns about their career in prosecution and romantic life. They discuss struggles with bisexuality and forming lasting connections. The host questions their handling of recent dating experiences, prompting reflection on communication and relationship perspectives.
Stefan emphasizes communication and empathy in relationships, discussing dating, marriage, and parenting complexities. He encourages introspection and growth, using humor and feedback to foster understanding. Stefan guides the caller on vulnerability, aggression, childhood influences, and trigger management for healthier relationships and personal development.
The conversation delves into family dynamics, past traumas, and the impact of childhood wounds on relationships. They explore restitution for emotional damage and fear of repeating negative patterns. The caller shares experiences of isolation, concerns about his dating life, and potential impact on future relationships.
Stefan highlights trust, vulnerability, and delegating judgment in partnerships for functional relationships. He advises on interpersonal skills, revisiting therapy for issues like power dynamics, and managing assertiveness positively. The dialogue concludes with well-wishes and gratitude for honest reflection and growth opportunities.
[0:00] I'll just start then. We did the call in September of 21, society sides with abusers, and much has happened since then. In many ways, life has improved. The topics we spoke about, such as my relationship with my brother, my weed addiction, and my academic and professional prospects have improved. And most importantly, I did a year in therapy and made some significant progress, and gained a greater understanding of myself.
[0:31] I have also been doing well financially, as I have been able to invest in a year of private high-quality therapy, as well as having a savings pot of approximately £6,000, and I'm using that as a deposit to get a mortgage on a flat. There are two things that trouble me, however. That is what I would like to discuss with you. The first thing is my future career path. I have a law degree, and I'm about to start the final stage of qualifying as a solicitor. I'm worried about my first choice of field, criminal law, specifically prosecution, and whether it is moral, realistic, and desirable.
[1:13] Secondly, my romantic life has been far from ideal. I am bisexual and have had a string of one-night stands and short relationships, four women and eight guys. But when I look at my future, I wonder whether if I will be able to achieve marriage and a family, especially since there are some cultural, religious, and racial considerations that make the UK not so optimal for me when it comes to dating and marriage. Put it otherwise, I look ahead and see the potential to be an upper-middle-class prosecutor in the UK with a happy family. But then, I look ahead and see a future in which I abandon this plan. And don't meet the love of my life, and end up professionally and romantically lost, stuck in my soul-crushing 9-to-5 working in finance with no partner and no kids in my 40s.
[2:07] I'm also an agriculturalist. I have several allotments that I use to grow vegetables for myself and for selling to local businesses, and I have been able to modestly supplement my income. It is this that I would like to do for the rest of my life, and it is the one thing I would happily do for free, as I love working the land and growing vegetables.
[2:28] My father was also a farmer, and he failed at running a farm, so he had to leave Egypt to go to Eastern Europe for a new start. The reason his failure and fleeing from Egypt are stuck in my mind is because he died on the 6th of March this year, and he died alone and miserable, with no family, no friends, and not a penny to his name. Despite being exceptionally good at it, I wonder if my gravitation towards agriculture is me repeating a generational cycle that will end the same way. Since our initial call, I have been in one two-month long relationship that ended badly, and it was my fault, and as a result, have been unable to live it down, and I am tortured daily by the thought of what could have been. I feel like there is a sword hanging over my head, that I will do nothing and become nothing. Sometimes my chest feels tight, and I get a real sense of anxiety and impending doom when I think of my life three years from now. Despite the fact that I have a three-year plan which is realistically achievable, ambitious, and positive for myself and my community. Would you be able to help someone who feels lost and scared and is unsure what to do about it?
[3:43] We did discuss my relationship with my parents in the last call, and just to confirm, I'm still not in contact with my mother and have not been since March of 2021. She has since tried to re-establish contact, and I have refused because of the violent, verbally abusive, and neglectful nature of my childhood and her refusal to make any form of restitution. Please let me know if you need any additional context or information, and I hope we are able to have another equally productive call. Thank you.
[4:18] I appreciate the message, and congratulations, of course, on progress. Progress. Good, good. I mean, I'm thrilled to hear that. It's the major issue. I mean, the solicitor stuff, the lawyer stuff, and the dating stuff. Is that the major stuff?
[4:34] Uh yeah yeah those are the main two ah.
[4:37] It's only work and love what do they matter causing defroid.
[4:40] That's the only thing that matters.
[4:41] But all right no i get it i get it okay now did we talk about your dating preferences in the last show.
[4:48] No it didn't come up it didn't come all right or it did very very briefly i didn't want to which.
[4:55] Do you want to focus on first.
[4:57] We're about an hour into a call so you.
[5:00] Want to focus.
[5:02] On i'm gonna pick a lot more or love because you cannot love because that's more important i can make money anyway but love is love okay it matters more i would say wouldn't you agree uh.
[5:14] Well if i had to choose one i'd certainly choose love all right so tell me a little bit about the evolution of the bisexuality and that kind of stuff.
[5:24] Uh well i don't really know how it evolved i just I just went through my puberty and noticed that I like both. And I'm not turned off by the thought of masculine company, but I'm equally not turned off by the thought of feminine company. So therefore, a conventional label one would slap on such a state of affairs would be bisexual. Even though I don't like the label.
[5:55] Right. Sorry, go ahead.
[5:57] I had been very promiscuous. I have been very promiscuous. I have not achieved what I would hope to achieve. Since our last call, the body count has not increased drastically. It was 10 when you and I spoke. It's 12 now, so that's two in three years. Both of them short-term, but it's certainly not as bad as it was in the past. But obviously, there is a lot of progress to make.
[6:24] Okay. So, yeah, so you've only slept with two people in the last three years?
[6:29] Yeah.
[6:30] Okay. I mean, I think for bisexuality, that's pretty much celibate, isn't it?
[6:37] To be honest, when it comes to the gay side.
[6:41] Not always the most sexually restrained community on the planet, right?
[6:47] Well, that's putting it mildly.
[6:49] Yeah, I don't, there's no way to put it non-mildly. So, yeah, okay, I get it. All right. And did you have any untoward sexual experiences as a child? Inappropriate sexual experiences as a child? No.
[7:09] No, we covered childhood in depth in the last call, and the sexual assault was never a part of it. I guess I anticipated the question, so I did think about it. The most sexual thing, I would say, that happened would be hitting on the behind, whether with a hand or implement, but I was never actually molested or anything.
[7:31] Got it. Okay. Sometimes that is a factor. So, pair bonding. Let's talk about these two relationships that you had over the last three years. Do I have that math right? Yeah, three years since our last call, right?
[7:53] Yeah, but they're not relationships. They're religious.
[7:55] Tell me about these relationships. What happened?
[8:01] They are not relationship, just a night's entertainment.
[8:07] Oh, I'm so sorry. So the two-month-old was in the prior to three years?
[8:14] Yes, that was actually ongoing at the time of our previous call. It's since ended, but that was the only serious thing. The rest were just fun.
[8:25] Okay. Now, are you looking for a relationship and failing to find it or not looking for a relationship?
[8:36] I would say I'm looking again. I think once I start to expand, you're going to say, well, your actions don't exactly match your words, but I'm not going to try and put words in your mouth. So short of it, yes, I have asked people out since I have asked people out with the intention of seriously taking them on a date and treating them seriously. I was texting back and forth with someone about two weeks ago that didn't end well. I tried. I am out there. Try and put myself out there.
[9:10] So what happened two weeks ago?
[9:11] I've spoken to people, I've been on dating app.
[9:13] Yeah, what happened two weeks ago?
[9:14] Two weeks ago, I was talking to a guy, and we were getting on very well, but I was at work and at the gym, and in my garden and in church and very busy and I didn't respond to his messages in a very timely manner or I responded with some short emoji reactions, and did not flesh out the conversation. So, and again, not out of a dislike for the individual. I wouldn't have spoken to him if I didn't like him. It's just, I was a bit short. And because we had been texting for a week, I said, I can't keep texting all day with the phone in my hand. So I kept it short and he canceled and said, well, since you're not interested, screw you. I said, all right, your choice. but I didn't have anything wrong with you until you threw a hissy fit, but whatever. I'm not going to chase you up.
[10:08] A lot of pride there, right?
[10:10] For you. On my end?
[10:12] Yeah.
[10:14] No, I disagree.
[10:15] Your loss, hissy fits, you know, there's a lot of, a lot of pride there, a lot of screw you stuff, right?
[10:21] I disagree. I was perfectly in good faith and reasonable and ethical and engaging everything. Everything until he decided I had no choice but to say, should I run after you? Especially when I take this, it's a bit of a deal breaker and a red flag. Why should I have a thing with someone that's going to be temperamental whenever he doesn't get attention?
[10:54] But I mean, you're temperamental in his cancellation, right?
[11:01] Not really, don't carry it away you want to cancel you don't don't we hadn't met, so I don't feel I've lost a whole lot I'm not angry at the guy I'm not out to get him but yeah once you once you say you know since you're not interested, I'm not going to talk to you what can I do I wouldn't say I was prideful I would say I handled that quite well actually.
[11:25] What can you do I.
[11:26] Established some hang.
[11:27] On hang on hang on, If you're giving emojis back to someone, that doesn't indicate interest, right?
[11:36] Well, it doesn't initially. If they message you and you start reacting with emojis immediately, then obviously not. But if you've been texting all day, every day for multiple days in a row, and you have a job where you shouldn't be on your phone at work, and you're at the gym, and you're gardening, and you've got your hands in the mud, you can't be expected to be on someone's beck and call all day, every day. I wouldn't say I did anything wrong with react by reacting with emojis. I would not have taken it personally. If someone's still willing to meet, but they're responding. Sorry.
[12:11] I apologize for that. I apologize for not understanding this, the subculture, but did you say to him, I can't, I don't have enough time to text. I'm, I'm quite busy, but let's meet up. But like, did you explain to him why you were doing a brief responses?
[12:28] I didn't flesh out the whole thing, but I did say, yeah, I can't have my phone in my hand all day. And he said it was fine, but apparently it wasn't later on.
[12:39] Okay. So, so you were texting back and forth. How long were you texting back and forth?
[12:44] Uh, four or five days at the very most. Four, probably.
[12:48] Okay. And then, uh, you were supposed to meet up and what happened before the meetup that had him canceled?
[12:59] My reactions to his texts, just not engaging enough, apparently. And he said, since you're not that interested, let's just forget tomorrow. And I said, okay, forget it.
[13:14] Okay, so you said, how else could I have handled it? There's tons of other ways to handle it. I don't know which one is right, obviously, but there's options, right?
[13:22] Okay, give me a few.
[13:24] Okay, so one would be, you know, I'm really sorry. Sorry. Yeah, I can completely understand. You know, I've been giving you kind of brief responses and I haven't really explained the details, but, you know, I do like you and I'm sorry that I was brief. Let's meet up and see if we connect better in person. If you don't mind, I apologize. Like, whatever, right? You could apologize and say something like that. That's one possibility, right?
[13:52] Yes. Could have been done that way.
[13:55] And did that cross your mind or no?
[14:00] Not really as soon as he cancelled i just said this probably isn't meant to be if it's this stressful before i even meet him i don't want to chance this i'm just gonna accept him cancelling and move on with my life because yeah if you're cancelling over not getting enough attention and imagine what it's going to be like if we're actually you know together for six months.
[14:23] Okay so so.
[14:25] The longest sorry.
[14:25] Let me understand this so the longest relationship you've had is two months.
[14:29] Yes and.
[14:32] You you're in your late 20s early 30s.
[14:36] 24 you're.
[14:38] 24 okay so you're 24 years old so you've been on the dating market for like eight years or whatever right you know mid late teens often we sort of start dating or whatever right so you've been on the.
[14:48] Dating market.
[14:48] Let's just say, for seven or eight years, and the longest relationship you've had is two months, and you have no doubt about how you handle things. I mean, you got to be kidding me, brother. Like, no doubt at all. You're absolutely certain you did the right thing. But if you're so good at doing these things, why can't you have a relationship?
[15:10] Well, I didn't generalize the principle, though. I never said I was good at handling things. I said I'm good at handling that one thing. If you read my message back, you'll see that I take full responsibility for how the two-month thing ended. And I'll be the first to admit that I really fumbled the bag on that one. I'm not someone who shies away from personal responsibility, but I am someone who will stand up for what he thinks is right. And in this instance, yeah, if someone cancels because you're not sending back and forth texts all day, it's a bit of a red flag.
[15:40] Come on, man. This is not accurate. Again, I don't think, I can't imagine that he canceled because you weren't sending him texts all day.
[15:54] That's what he said he said you clearly don't seem interested so let's just leave tomorrow.
[15:58] Okay so that's what he said now you you've characterized that as i'm not available to send texts back and forth all day yes.
[16:10] The all day is my bit yes i've added.
[16:11] Okay so so you understand that's that's adding your twist on what happened because i can't imagine unless he's genuinely insane in which case why would you be interested in the first place everybody knows that other people have lives and that there'll be times where there's not much that there's a gap between sending a message and getting a response right or you know there are times when if he texts you in the middle of a work day that you're busy and you're you're gonna have to be brief and then you know later you can say i'm sorry i was brief earlier i was stuck in a meeting or you know so so is it the case that he expected you to spend all day texting with him.
[16:50] Well no he didn't communicate that expectation so it would be unreasonable to assume it existed.
[16:55] Okay so when you characterize it and i did this may sound nitpicky but i think it's important so when you characterize it as well i just wasn't available to send texts back with him all day that was not his expectation and that's not why he canceled because because you weren't texting with him all day every day.
[17:13] Yes That would be fair to say That the all day bit Is my own addition.
[17:17] So why What were the What were the What were the interactions That caused him to feel That you weren't Interested.
[17:27] Him sending a message around usually something complimentary like it'll be nice to meet you you look good in this picture you know it's nice that you have this hobby this interest, and i would just see the message and give a quick emoji a thumbs up or a heart and get back to work right or get back to the gym or the garden or whatever and.
[17:48] Did you provide him any complimentary texts or longer texts after he'd sent you the stuff that you just emojied.
[17:55] Yes i did follow up several times yes there were times where i got home from the gym and texted him first after leaving him on an emoji yes there were okay.
[18:03] And so what was the interaction do you think well i guess you would have a record of it what was the interaction wherein he said it doesn't seem like you're interested let's let's not bother meeting up what was the interaction that occurred before that that you think had him cancelled.
[18:20] Uh i reacted to something he said with an emoji but i don't remember what i said what he said or okay what i reacted was something he said and i thumbs it up and a few minutes later he texts and says well you're not interested, okay and i was doing had you had uh.
[18:37] Had you had a lot of interactions with the emoji responses answers before or had you been texting him before that.
[18:45] Um mostly texting the emojis became more and more towards the end okay so he's giving you compliments trying.
[18:56] To engage and to some degree you're giving him emojis back right i mean not obviously put not not 100 but more than he right right?
[19:07] Yes. Okay.
[19:09] Now, I mean, I don't agree with his volatility, of course, right? But you could understand why somebody might feel that you're less interested.
[19:18] Yes, absolutely. And not only would I understand him feeling it from a distant empathy level, but I've also been in those shoes where you're texting someone, usually a woman, and she responds with emojis and you say, okay, I'll move on because she's not interested. So I've been in his shoes. So yes, I understand.
[19:34] This time now if you had if you were getting emojis back from a woman and and then you decided to move on and then she said i'm so sorry i've just been emojiing x y and z happened i really would like to meet and would you have appreciated a message like that absolutely so you understand why i'm asking this right yes.
[19:59] I do i didn't expect to be called out so early in the call i was hoping and it would wait till later. But yes, you have- Well.
[20:06] That's why I said there's a pride element here, right? Which is this guy gets upset a bit because he feels like you're not responding. And listen, even if you don't want to meet up with the guy, you can say, like, even if you say, you were to say to yourself, look, he's too volatile, he's too reactive and all, he's too emotional. Then you can at least say, like, I'm really sorry, you know, it wasn't a matter of not being interested, just X, Y, and Z or whatever, right? But yeah, I think in general, I mean, this is a basic, you know, ethics thing, right? I mean, not that you're an unethical person or anything, but we try to provide to other people what we would appreciate ourselves.
[20:41] Yes, I agree. That is one thing we should do.
[20:46] Right. Yeah, so, I mean, that's why I sort of pointed out that there's a kind of like, he gets upset and feels hurt, and then you just kick him to the curb and drive on, right? As opposed to, you know, you obviously like this guy, right? I mean, you were texting back and forth for a couple of days.
[21:00] Yeah, I did like him.
[21:01] So so then like the moment he's upset you're like get lost too bad move on kick to the curb kind of thing right now if if the moment that somebody else gets upset in a relationship you kick him to the curb you can't have a relationship i mean that's just a basic fact because people are going to get upset in relationships obviously right yes so if you say well the moment someone's upset i I just kick him to the curb and move on and to hell with them and screw them. And right. I'm not interested. And they, they have insane requests. Like if you make up all of this stuff and his, his request wasn't insane. Right. Because you've had that same request yourself and you're not insane. Now, maybe it was a little needy. We can say, but you know, whatever. Right. So if you want to have a relationship, you can't just kick people to the curb if they get upset. Now, did he handle it super well? No, I don't think so. Did you handle it super well? I don't think so. but the price of being in a relationship is you can't just write people off the moment they bother you.
[22:05] You're right.
[22:09] So, I mean, that's sort of my first question. My second question is you say that you want to get married and have children, right? Isn't that going to be a little tricky dating a man?
[22:25] Possibly, but I'm sorry.
[22:27] Possibly.
[22:29] Well, I do live in a Western country that I've stated. So it's possible to have kids through other means, surrogacies and adoption.
[22:38] Don't you want your own kids?
[22:41] I would like to have my own kids but the priority is having them if they could be my own the traditional way through a woman great but if not and i was to run into the perfect male partner that i thought i couldn't live without then i obviously wouldn't let the practical infrastructural difficulties get in my way but.
[23:05] Wouldn't it be i mean in terms of breastfeeding and stuff like that could we not consider it mildly advantageous to the child to have a biological mother?
[23:14] Not just mildly advantageous, stupendously advantageous, but what can I do? If I'm bisexual and I run into a perfect partner, I couldn't bring myself to just exclude half the dating market because they don't have tits. That's not what I'm wired for.
[23:38] But it would be for the best of the child, though. You just said it would be stupendously advantageous to the child, right?
[23:47] Yes.
[23:48] So if you were to act in ways that, according to your metrics, would be stupendously better for the child, wouldn't that be then what you would do in terms of approaching a partner? As you'd say, well, I'm going to configure things not for what's best for me, but what's best for my children.
[24:09] Yes, but there are other ways to do breastfeeding. There are other ways to have babies in general. There are wet nurses. There are lesbian couples.
[24:21] Bro, bro, come on. Let's not waste time here. You said it was stupendously advantageous. Did I say that there were no alternatives?
[24:28] No, you did not.
[24:29] You said, listen, you said, come on, let's not waste time. You said it was stupendously advantageous to your child to have a biological mother, right?
[24:37] Yes.
[24:37] Okay, so then that would make dating a woman a much higher priority for what's best for your children, right?
[24:45] Yes.
[24:45] Okay, so that's all I'm saying. But you just said about me, me and I and the perfect partner for me and this, that and the other, right?
[24:53] Well, at this point, finding someone is the consideration. Now, yeah, if I had to paint my perfect world situation, yes, a woman would be. The person I ended up with forever. But when you run into someone and you know it's right, I don't want to sit here and say no men. I don't want to have a no-man policy for the next 60 years of my life.
[25:20] Well, you're going to have to if you get married, aren't you? If you get married to a woman, aren't you going to have to have a no-man, or are you going to have an open marriage, or what's the plan?
[25:27] No, no, no, never an open marriage, never.
[25:30] Okay, so you're willing to have a no-man policy and a no-other-woman policy if you get married to a woman, right?
[25:37] And I'm also willing to have a no-woman policy if I were to get married to a man, because you need to understand the wiring in my head around men and women is the same. I see them as potential mates, or not potential mates. There's no distinction in my head.
[25:53] But they're not equal in terms of motherhood, by your standard, right?
[25:57] No, they aren't.
[25:58] Okay, so you don't have equal wiring if you take into account what's best for your children by what you say, right?
[26:05] Yes.
[26:05] Okay, just wanted to check that. Because, you know, the purpose of sexuality is the having and raising of children, not getting your rocks off, right?
[26:14] Yes, and the failure to realize that may be why we are having this conversation.
[26:19] I mean, listen, if you want to just go and have sex, get your rocks off, and then okay, whatever, right? But if you're talking about, you know, you said it's stupendously better for your children, right? I'm just going off your metric. Then men and women are not equal in terms of what's best for your children.
[26:34] Yes, that is true.
[26:35] Okay.
[26:36] Now, would you recommend a no-man policy? Would you recommend a no-man policy?
[26:41] Well, I'm not trying to recommend anything. I'm just going by what you say. If you say that you want to have children and you want to do what's best for your children, and having a woman is stupendously better for your children, having a female mother is stupendously better for your children, then it's not what I'm telling you to do. It's what your own values are telling you to do, if I understand them correctly.
[27:03] You're right. Yes.
[27:06] Now, you say, if I meet the perfect man, right?
[27:09] Mm-hmm.
[27:10] So is it your belief that there is a perfect person out there with whom things are going to be easy and great?
[27:22] I don't believe in the concept of a soulmate, that there's one person destined for you, but I do believe in the, yes, fundamentally when you say perfect, you mean easy, where I don't have to stress, where the relationship is not work, but instead alleviates some of the stresses and tensions that come with the rest of the work in life.
[27:44] So, it's not that you're deficient or prideful or volatile in your relationship skills, is that you haven't met the person who fits, wherein you won't have any problems, really, with the relationship. Like, you just have to have the right jigsaw piece puzzle that fits with you, and things are going to be great.
[28:03] I have never said that.
[28:06] I'm not trying to argue with you here. I'm trying to understand you. I feel like we're in court here. So you said that if I meet the right person, it's going to be easy. That was my understanding.
[28:19] Yes.
[28:20] Okay, so when I repeat back to you that you just need to fight, it's not a lack of relationship skills or volatility or pride on your part, it's just that you haven't met the right person, I am repeating back to you what you said.
[28:30] It is to say that with a development of my relationship skills and an acknowledgement and an improvement around my flaws, I can have a relationship that is easy, but I have never discounted or disagreed with any of what you're saying about my personal flaws. And they are abundant and i would love to spend time dissecting them because i do believe they are the main cause as to why i'm not happy in a long-term relationship right now i've never said that society is to blame or others are to blame i accept fully that i've made stupid decisions, and i have displayed some very negative traits it's just i would also say that if those are addressed and overcome, there will be an easy relationship out there.
[29:22] But you and I are having this rather aggressive and fractious conversation a year after you've been in therapy, or after you've been in therapy for a year working on your relationship flaws, right? Because, I mean, you and I are having a relationship at the moment, right?
[29:37] Yes.
[29:38] I mean, and how do you think my experience of this relationship is in the time that we've been talking?
[29:46] Maybe you felt i have not shown enough good faith and i have maybe taken what you say is accusation instead of opportunity yeah.
[29:57] I'm trying to understand what what the issues are and i'm i'm getting a lot of combat and and reframing and falsification of what i'm saying i'm just from my experience right it's not him it's a huge criticism i'm just sort of telling you my experience So.
[30:13] In that case, allow me to clarify that I don't think that was appropriate of me, and I'll move forward in good faith.
[30:26] Yeah, no, I mean, I'm not giving you, I mean, I want you to be honest about what you think and feel. So I'm not, I'm not giving you any, any sort of big criticism here. But I am saying that if this is after a year, I mean, we talked a couple of years ago, and you've done a year of therapy, and you're still kind of prideful and punchy and kind of aggressive and, and you do reframe stuff, right? So I repeat back to you what you say, and you say, well, I never said that. And then I said, well, here's what you said. Okay, I did. You know, it's just kind of punchy, right? Right. And I appreciate this and I appreciate your punchy nature. I'm a little punchy myself, so I'm not going to make some big criticism on your punchy nature, but it does make it tricky to communicate. I mean, I can see why the legal field might be quite appealing to you because it's a little bit in your nature to hair split and to be kind of punchy. Right. And that's very helpful in a lawyer a lot of times.
[31:17] You're right you i have a tendency to be combative and to pick up on things that you know i maybe read into a bit too much or reframe what others have said or what others interpretation or repeating of what i have said and i would yeah when you.
[31:33] Were talking about the texting guy basically you said i did everything perfectly and he did everything wrong right i mean you really said that i mean that wasn't even that's not even a paraphrase like i handled it perfectly and he did everything wrong. And then, you know, we talked about it a little bit and, you know, I don't think he handled it perfectly and I think there's things you could have done that could have been slightly better. It wasn't any sort of big thing, right? But that's kind of a change from your initial position that is quite rapid and quite unremarked upon, right?
[32:08] Well, yes. this the change i would say is spurred on by your wise highlighting of my inconsistencies and and, flaws and i accept that and i'm willing to take it on the chin and move forward if we can in a productive way right.
[32:30] And has your therapist talked to you about you reframing things so that you're right and the other person is wrong? Is that something that you guys have talked about? And listen, you don't have to talk about anything. Therapy is very private, so I don't want to lift the veil on anything you want to keep private, but I'm just curious if that's come up. Because if it has, then I'll move on because that's something your therapist is already working on. And if it's not, maybe we could spend a bit more time on it.
[32:53] What we worked on was the fight or flight response, the tendency to take things in a negative way. And if someone's laughing, they're laughing about me. If someone's joking, they're joking about me. And if someone's knocking on my door, it's going to be the murderer, police, drag me off. Nothing's ever positive. Nothing's ever happy. Always thinking the worst. Part of that is obviously what you've highlighted about the punchiness and the pickiness and the pridefulness. And part of it was greater than that. But yes, fight or flight is fundamentally what a lot of the therapy was spent on.
[33:30] Right. Because, I mean, the guy you were texting with, he really liked you, right?
[33:36] From what I understand, yeah.
[33:37] Well, I mean, he was very clear about that. I mean, he complimented you. He wanted to text you with you a lot. And he really, he put his heart on the line in a way in terms of saying how much he liked you and how impressive you were to him, right?
[33:53] Yes.
[33:54] And so there's ways of framing things in relationships, right?
[33:57] And we'll call this a relationship because it certainly was and there was hope in it, right? Right. So if somebody says, look, I mean, you're not giving me much response. So clearly you're not that interested. So let's not waste each other's time or whatever he said about not meeting up. Right. Now, you can say it matters what you say in your mind about that. Right. Because what you say in your mind is going to be depending is going to is going to condition your response. So if what you say in your mind is, oh, so he's so desperate and needy that because I'm not available to text with him 24 seven. He's just going to have a hissy fit and be a little bitch about it, right? Then you're going to condition your response, right?
[34:38] Yes.
[34:39] And that's sort of, to some degree, how you framed it. Now, of course, if you say, wow, this guy really likes me and he's really put his heart out there, obviously he's feeling pretty rejected and vulnerable and he's afraid that he's going to get involved with someone who's not that interested in him. Like, obviously, he's somebody with a great capacity for attachment, and he's concerned about the lack of reciprocity, and maybe he's been burned in the past, and so on. So, maybe I don't meet him, maybe I do, but at least I can, you know, address his concerns, right? Right. Now, so whichever way you frame it is going to be how you respond. And I guess, are you aware of how you frame things and how that is going to condition your response?
[35:28] Well, I've certainly had an inkling that my reaction to people's, you know, opening themselves up to me in past has not always been the most wiser, productive. And I'll accept that in this instance, it was the same, yes, by me coming out to be the one that was doing everything wrong. It did inevitably condition my response into one of negativity, where it could have been something more productive, something more open-hearted, I'll admit.
[36:02] Right. Now, your first day of law school, right?
[36:07] Yes.
[36:08] So you didn't really have much experience in law, and you didn't really know. I mean, you've seen a couple of shows, I suppose, and all that sort of stuff. But your first day of law school, can you imagine ferociously arguing with a professor who has 40 years experience in law?
[36:24] Well, none of them do, because we get all the... I understand your argument, just some lighthearted humor. But yes, fundamentally, when you go in, you go in with an attitude to learn and not to preach.
[36:39] Right. And so would you consider me somebody who has some success in relationships and in some self-honesty and so on? I mean, I came from a two-divorced mentally ill household, and I have been happily married for like 21 years or whatever. I have some, and I've written entire books on relationships, and I've counseled thousands of people or given them feedback on relationships, which has been fairly successful. So I think, you know, and I've been 40 years in philosophy, right? Right. So when I'm sort of asking questions or trying to understand something and, you're kind of half ferociously arguing with me and telling me I'm wrong, then to some degree, it's a little bit like if there was a guy in your law class who was telling a professor with 40 years experience or 20 years experience that the professor was wrong about everything he was saying, how would you feel about that student?
[37:42] I would consider him an arrogant pompous prick.
[37:46] Well that might be harsh but you know you'd say that that may be not the wisest approach to trying to learn right, yes absolutely right so the way that i frame it is um, that that you you have challenges with vulnerability and the fact that this guy I was showing some real vulnerability, probably aroused a bit of aggression in you. And so I sort of framed it that way, whereas I could have easily framed it in my mind to say, well, this guy wants to call me up for advice on relationships, and whenever I start pointing out things about his relationships, he tells me he's perfectly right and I'm wrong. And like, so this guy is not calling me up to get any advice, he's not calling me up to get any feedback he's just calling me up he's going to justify everything he's doing and say that he's perfectly in the right not take any feedback he's you know a jerk and i'm gonna not bother spending any time with him like you can understand how somebody might have that response right yes.
[38:49] I i understand that i have not begun this conversation in the most willing with the most willingness to learn and i could have been more receptive to an alternative approach instead of saying.
[39:01] He has a hissy fit. You're calling me for advice?
[39:07] Yeah, you're right.
[39:08] And so listen, I'm not, you know, but the funny thing is that you can't show vulnerability and you get really mad at a guy on the text messages who's showing vulnerability, right? Because saying you don't appear to be that interested, let's not waste each other's time is clearly showing vulnerability because he's saying, I like you more than you like me, which is a vulnerable position to be in, right? So it's kind of, I mean, you understand, it's kind of interesting to me that you get mad at the guy for showing vulnerability, and then you call me up for advice and are unable to show any vulnerability. You know, it's kind of a circle, right? And I don't mean this in any negative way. I've just, it's an interesting pattern, right?
[39:49] You're right to highlight it, and I'd like to investigate it further and see if there's any possible improvement there.
[39:59] Right, right. Okay, so what is it that you're looking for in a relationship? What what will how will the relationship.
[40:10] Make your life better, more than anything i would say a sense of stability and peace that i can come home and have someone who's happy to see me and i'm happy to see them and whatever we do go somewhere or watch something or eat something it's done with an understanding that there's no need for a confrontation or stress or drama because fundamentally part of breaking the cycle for me would involve happiness at the sound of a key turning instead of sheer terror which my, childhood was right and of course i just hugely.
[40:51] Sympathize with that i just wanted to mention that there's a terrible a terrible way to live as a kid i was just talking to somebody the other day who's like yeah she has a sibling or two and whenever the father's key was in the lock they'd They'd all scatter. Like they just leave, leave the house, leave the, go to their rooms, go to the bottom of the garden just to stay away from them. It's a, it's an awful way to live. And I really do want to sympathize with, with that way that you, you grew up.
[41:13] I appreciate that.
[41:14] Right.
[41:14] I'm grateful for that. That means a lot.
[41:18] So peace, right? So you want, you want peace, right?
[41:23] Peace and stability. Yes.
[41:26] Now, you know that your punchiness is not likely to get that no matter what someone does, right?
[41:33] Of course, if I'm combative and I come home and I'm asking these prosecutorial questions and taking everything as an affront, yeah, of course it's going to be a problem.
[41:46] Do you think that you need to find more peace in yourself in order to find peace in a relationship? Or do you think that a relationship will bring you that peace? I mean, and I'm not saying whether it's rational or not, but what do you feel deep down? Do you think that the woman is going to bring peace to you? Or the man i suppose.
[42:03] I would say i would say no one must be peaceful first because you will not attract a peaceful person if you are yourself not peaceful right and crazy comes to attack crazy so yeah so.
[42:17] What do you think is uh keeping you punchy.
[42:23] It's a lot of the fight or flight response things that i've covered in therapy that you've expanded on in brilliant detail in your show the bomb in the brain in particular comes up in my mind right now it's a sense that because in childhood every conversation was a prosecutorial inquisition and every interaction could end in explosive violence that i've maybe carried that with me where you don't know if mom is going to come home with a bag of crisps or a knuckle sandwich right right yeah right it's uh i'll be the first to admit that i have carried that legacy forward and even when you hear someone laugh in public that's the cliched example but it's absolutely true when i hear people laugh in public i turn over my shoulder why are they laughing at me i don't care about you stop making it about you yeah i was actually talking to a.
[43:16] Guy this morning who wouldn't go to the gym because he was afraid everyone was going to look at him, and it's like no no no you go to the gym everyone's looking in the mirror they're not look at you that's a different thing everyone's narcissistic not not uh combative that way anyway i'm just kidding right but yeah so so so if you know that right if you know that about yourself like the punchy stuff the fight or flight stuff the inquisition stuff the cross-examination the the the aggression and all of that.
[43:49] So, if you know that, how do you catch yourself when you do it or when you have the impulse to do it? Because, I mean, you didn't catch yourself particularly, from what I can tell, you didn't catch yourself particularly with me. And I'm not trying to, again, I'm not trying to blame you. I'm glad that you were honest and direct, right? But you didn't hugely catch yourself with me until I sort of, you know, kind of patiently and persistently pointed it out. Yeah. So if you have, this is, I mean, this is the big question of self-knowledge and I don't have any magic answer to it, but the big question is self-knowledge is, okay, I know this about myself. Now what? Right. So I know that I'm kind of punchy and, and it's, it's a fight or flight, it's kill or be killed. It's a counterattack or be destroyed. I mean, so if I know that about myself, then what? Right. Cause I think that's the big question for you, knowing this about yourself. You've done the year of therapy, which is fantastic. You've worked on self-knowledge, which is fantastic. So now you know about the punchy side of yourself. Now what? How do you catch yourself?
[44:54] I was hoping to rely on some of your wisdom for this.
[44:58] Right. But is that something that is on your list? And I'm not saying whether it should or shouldn't be. I just want to know, is it like, okay, now I know this about, I know this punchy side of myself. So how do I catch it?
[45:12] I would love to work on that. Yes, I believe the fight or flight response is something that I have worked on. But to hear your thoughts on it and to give me some pointers to work on going forward, I think would be invaluable. Yes.
[45:29] Okay. So the way that I've worked on these kinds of things, and obviously I don't know what would work for you. I can just share what's worked for me. but the way that I've worked on these things so I have a habit of taking things personally or I used to I think I'm mostly done with it now but I have a habit of taking things personally, so the way that I do it in my mind and in my interactions is, if I'm taking something personally I'm wrong until proven otherwise.
[46:10] I'm wrong until proven otherwise. That's very liberating for me. Now, sometimes people are saying things personally, and that's important. But in general, if I have a particular trigger, the way that I work with it is, I'm absolutely, completely, and totally wrong until proven otherwise. So if you have a feeling that somebody's laughing in public, they're laughing at you, You, I think you assume that unless they're pointing at you and laughing and telling all their friends and they're pointing, like, I don't know, you've got some toilet paper hanging out of your shorts or something, I don't know, whatever it is, right? Somebody put a kick me sign on your back or whatever, right? So if somebody laughs in your vicinity and you say, oh, they're laughing at me, you say, no, no, no, I'm totally wrong about that until there's clear evidence otherwise. Does that make sense?
[47:04] It really does make sense because a lot of the times I'll have a tendency to take things personally. I mean, frowns, when they're walking past and you think the frown is about you.
[47:14] Sorry, you're moving around a little bit and your audio is kind of coming and going. It's a little hard to follow what you're saying.
[47:21] Sorry, I am walking about. Sorry. Yeah, I would say that's definitely something that is true. through my tendency to take things personally. And it would be right to say that, assume you're wrong until proven otherwise, because most of the time, 99% of the time, it's not about you. If someone frowns at you when they're walking past you, I personally would have a tendency to say they're frowning at me, but they might not be. They're most likely not. And it would would be reasonable to assume they're not frowning at me unless they were to walk up to me and tell me why they are frowning at me. So yes, I absolutely agree that to start off with the position of I'm wrong and so let's learn what's right is a lot more productive than screw you, I'm going to be punchy.
[48:13] Right. But there's an even bigger level. So let's say somebody frowns at you and then they They walk up and they say, I'm frowning at you because X, Y, Z, whatever, right? I don't like your beard or whatever, right? You understand even that has nothing to do with you.
[48:31] It could be with their particular ghosts and demons and childhood and dysfunctions, I'll admit. Yes. Right.
[48:39] So, I mean, obviously people have said some horrible things about me publicly. And it's not about me, though. Even though they say that Stef did X, Y, and Z, therefore Stef is bad and so on, right? So it's not about me because anyone who said X, Y, and Z, they'd be mad at, right? So it's really about X, Y, and Z that they're upset.
[49:07] Yes.
[49:08] Right. So if I say women have smaller brains than men, right? I mean, that's true. I mean, it doesn't necessarily mean anything about intelligence. I mean, elephants have larger brains than people, but they're not smarter, right? But if I say women have smaller brains than men, then people will say, oh, this terrible misogynist, he hates women, whatever it is, right? Now, it's not about me. It's about the fact that I'm stating. People are getting angry at facts.
[49:39] Now, people who get angry at facts are mentally ill or corrupt or, you know, maybe they're just malevolent and evil. But people who get angry at facts will be viewed as some of the most corrupt people in history. So, of course, when Tycho Brahe and Galileo and Copernicus all started to advance the idea that the Earth was not the center of the universe, people got very angry. And, you know, people were killed, tortured.
[50:09] Mutilated, exiled, and so on, because of facts. It's a fact. It's a fact that the Earth is not the center of the universe. And people who get angry at facts are some of the most corrupt people around, and obviously some of the most malevolent and immoral people around. And sometimes it's just emotional or whatever. So they're not angry at me. It's not about me. Even though they say, Stef is a terrible guy because he said X, Y, and Z, well, these things, what I say is true. I mean, the facts that I say are true. And so they're not angry at me, they're angry at facts. They're enraged that the Earth is not the center of the solar system because they have an ideology that says the Earth is the center of the solar system in the same way that some people's religious belief was contingent upon the fact that the Bible says the Earth is fixed and does not move. And so for them to say that the Earth is not the center of the universe and the universe doesn't rotate around the earth and so on. To say that is blasphemy.
[51:10] So they're fundamentally like the causality, and this is why, this is how you undo the causality in your mind. The causality is people who are angry at people who say the earth is not the center of the universe. They're not angry that the earth is not the center of the universe. They're not angry that this contradicts certain interpretations of biblical teachings they're not angry at any of that stuff they're not angry at the person who says it they're angry because, At the people who lied to them. Usually their parents. Usually parents or trusted teachers and so on, right? So people aren't mad at me for what I say. They're actually mad at the people who lied to them. Now, they're taking it out on me because I've revealed that people lied to them.
[52:06] So it's not personal to me. It's actually, you're not, they're not fighting me. They're fighting the people who lied to them. And in the same way, the reason I didn't take your punchiness with me personally is you're not fighting me. It's not personal to me. It's not about me. You're not even disagreeing with me. It's just that if you're in a situation where your status is lowered, you're about to be physically attacked. So you have to maintain your status. You're avoiding the fists of your parents. You're not fighting with me. Does that make sense?
[52:42] It does it does i'll be the first to highlight that the punchiness yeah it does come from childhood and it does come from reading people's minds assuming that their minds are in any way shape or form similar to those of my parents but god forbid that be the case well but of course Of course.
[53:03] You called me because I'm not like your parents, right?
[53:08] Absolutely.
[53:08] So here's your challenge. When you feel punchy and you feel the urge to fight and hair split and defend and attack and reframe, when you're punchy, you're wrong until proven otherwise.
[53:29] That's a wonderful stratagem to keep in my back pocket.
[53:32] I'm not saying keep it in your back pocket, because that's out of sight. I'm saying keep it a little closer to your conscience than your back pocket. And it's tough.
[53:43] I will post it noted on my forehead.
[53:45] Yeah, yeah, because it's tough, because that's a primary survival mechanism is now to be discarded. Discarded which feels i don't know like if if you've seen some of one of these cheesy jurassic park movies where the guy goes into the paddock when he's going to command the dinosaurs with his voice and he's going to teach them to sit and back and i'm like that's not going to work like okay it's a fantasy obviously fantasy movie and so on right but it's like it's like the baby baby, it's like the baby zebra approaching the hungry lion saying, no, I'm not going to run. I'm going to make friends. Well, you're going to make friends with their bellies, right? You're not going to make friends with them. So the reason why it's so hard to do is an absolute survival mechanism, which for you is being punchy and fighting back, because otherwise, if you show vulnerability, they'll tear you apart. So for you to say, my primary defense mechanism that has kept me alive, lo, these many decades, I must now go in to the lion cage called the world with no protection whatsoever. Oof. That's tough, right?
[55:00] Yeah. It really is.
[55:03] So, yeah, when my mother would sort of attack me or say that she hates me or put me down or something like that, I had to take it personally. I had to. That was survival. rival. Because if I'd have said, like, my mother would be yelling at me and calling me terrible names or whatever, right? It's great how things change in life. But when my mother would be yelling at me and calling me terrible names, I would have to pretend that what she was saying was true. I would have to take it personally. Because if I said, look, you're just a sad, lonely woman in her 40s who screwed up her life, won't take responsibility and hates her own choices and is taking it out on me, right? If I'd have said something like that, what would have happened violence oh yeah like and and violence like i could have been killed she was that violent right so so i had to take things personally and i had to internalize because if i didn't take things personally and i just rolled my eyes like yeah yeah yeah you're just making a bunch of noise you're just some woman who can't get a decent guy and you won't take any responsibility and you're aging out of your looks and you know i it's it's a sad pathetic life and like if i'd done all of that i mean when i was a little kid right which is all pretty obvious right i mean.
[56:18] I would have been taking my life in my hands. So you have to, yeah, yeah, oh gosh, you know, I'm so sorry, blah, blah, blah. You have to take it personally, you have to internalize it. And so, but the problem is, of course, that when you take things personally, and you react to the world as if you're still a child, then quality people will stay away from you and dysfunctional people will be attracted to you.
[56:48] I've noticed I have that tendency.
[56:50] Right.
[56:52] To attract the unattractive.
[56:54] Right, right, right. So my guess is something like this. So in your family, if I remember correctly, and listen, brother, please tell me if I go astray, right? So it's your life and we had the convo before. So if I go astray, please tell me, because I don't want to get anything wrong about your life.
[57:13] So in your family.
[57:15] Status was very important that if you were higher status you were a little safer and if you were lower status you were toast.
[57:21] Yes because it was fundamentally about power right because the status was based on i can kick your ass and you can't say or do anything about it and i'm i'm basically willing to defend the status with violence which is why the power dynamics and and the status shifted when I got too physically big to hit.
[57:43] Right, right, right. Then it usually shifts to more emotional stuff and so on, right?
[57:48] Yes, absolutely. Status certainly was a thing. Even just asking good faith questions, like where were you, or what were you doing, or why did you do this, you would get a snapback, a nasty response. What do you care? Why do you want to know? Don't worry. It's just this punchiness. that I've adapted.
[58:10] Right. So if high status is safety and low status is danger, then when you got the sense that this guy was more interested in you than you were in him, you became higher status.
[58:28] You could say that, yeah. I would agree with that.
[58:30] Well, generally, in a power dynamic, the person who has more desire is the person who has to make more compromises. Like, if you're desperate for a car and it's the last one on the lot, the guy knows he can charge you more and you'll pay it, right?
[58:47] Yes.
[58:48] So, when he... Wanted you more than you wanted him or showed more interest in you then you withdraw because if you show equal numbers if you show equal levels of interest in him then you don't get high status and therefore you're not in power you're not safe you're not secure, so in a sense i think with this guy texting he became you as a kid and you became your parents.
[59:21] That's a powerful observation and i i am partially speechless which is rare but yeah yes i i mean the dynamics did kind of shift in my mind when i got the sense that i was being more the recipient of attention than the giver of attention yes things the variables and calculations in my head that change, yes.
[59:49] So this means the more someone wants you, the less you want them. Because the more someone wants you, the lower status they become, and lower status is bad.
[1:00:02] I'll keep that powerful observation in my front pocket.
[1:00:07] And that's why relationships are not sustainable, because the more someone wants you, the more they tempt you into being distant. Because you are tempted to be dominant when somebody is submissive because of your family. And when someone wants you more, they're in a lower status position, which translates into submissive. So the more someone wants you, the more you're going to reject them. And it seems to me that that's why I wanted to spend some time on the text messages, right?
[1:00:37] Yes, but can I also highlight the fact that this might just be a form of conventional self-sabotage? Parents trying to keep me isolated so they can say we were right about you being a shit kid. Because if I do push people that like me away, and I end up 40 and having pushed all the people that liked me away, and there were plenty of opportunities believe me then suddenly my mother can look up from her grave hopefully by then and say i was right about you wow or my father it's been a while since someone.
[1:01:09] Wished for the death of a mother but i i kind of i totally get where you're coming from i totally get where you're coming from it's.
[1:01:15] Not necessarily wishing i i i will admit i misspoke that that's that's malevolent i should not have said that i apologize listen listen listen if.
[1:01:23] If that's what you feel, I'm not going to fault you. I mean, the woman was pretty horrendous. So I'm just pointing it out that, you know, maybe that isn't conversation for the first date. I'm just saying, you know, this isn't our first date. We're not on a date. But, you know, I understand that level of aggression towards parents.
[1:01:39] When my father died, I felt nothing. I felt nothing. Because his last days were slow and he was in hospital and there were opportunities to talk to him. And someone did offer to pass me the phone. And I said, no. No, I don't want to talk to him. Whatever happens is on him. And he died without us ever having a final conversation.
[1:02:00] Well, because to want something from your father would have been low status, right?
[1:02:05] Well, I don't think a status thing was there as much as there was a hate thing of I won't give him the joy of a goodbye because he never gave me the joy of a good childhood. When I left my country of origin and we said our goodbyes, I felt joy. And when he died, I felt nothing because it's self-inflicted, all his problems, all his wounds in life.
[1:02:34] Listen, my friend and my brother in childhood suffering, I say this with all compassion and empathy. That's just not true. You can't feel nothing when your father dies. I mean, if you have an enemy who dies, I mean, I learned something the other day, I won't get into details, but I learned something the other day about someone who did me some significant harm in the past and they came to quite a bad end. Now, this was not a relative. It doesn't really matter the details. And this has happened quite a bit over the years. People who...
[1:03:09] In personal or public life?
[1:03:14] It's not getting to details. I don't want to make this about me. But I have noticed that the people who've done me harm don't generally come to a good end, right? And because it's never a good faith thing, right? So my point is that when I heard that this person had done badly or something bad had happened to this person, I felt so good. I felt glad. I felt satisfaction. I felt that the universe was inevitably arcing towards justice, that the unconscious and the conscience gets people who do corrupt things. So I, yeah, I'm, and to feel nothing. I think my father died and I had, relative to you, I had almost no relationship with the man, with you, with your father. So nothing, that's a power play, right? You kind of felt nothing. If you hated him that much, you had to be happy he was gone. But you kind of felt nothing.
[1:04:17] There was a conflict, a stirring of emotions. Emotions i i felt several things but fundamentally when i say nothing i mean i wasn't, in any way beset by this it didn't change my routine or my schedule i didn't take a day off whatever i was okay so he died.
[1:04:39] Was it a year last year.
[1:04:41] 6th of march this year 6th.
[1:04:44] Of march so recent right okay a couple of months ago so what is the stirrings of emotion what what did you feel.
[1:04:52] Well, first and foremost, I felt sad that it ended with zero legacy. And when I say zero, Stefan, I mean zero, not even a phone contract, a Wi-Fi, a car, a will, a pension, a friendship, some best friend of his that should know that this happened, nothing. Nothing it's it's as though he never existed it's literally i mean except for obviously me being here the man had left nothing and and that made me sad because i said for all my flaws i certainly hope i don't end up as the man left nothing.
[1:05:33] Again i hate to be mr contradiction but he left pain and trauma didn't he.
[1:05:39] He did he really really really did i.
[1:05:43] Mean it's like if a if a if a giant asteroid hits some place it leaves a big crater i mean there's nothing there of the buildings but that's a crater right.
[1:05:52] Yeah yeah he left nothing but fear and pain and anger and every negative emotion you can list when i said nothing obviously i meant a physical presence on the earth but But you're right, he did leave misery, and I think that cuts for a lot more than many physical things. So yes, you are right.
[1:06:11] For how long did he know he was likely to die?
[1:06:16] Well, I'm not clear on the whole situation, because it was a continent away, and I got this all through middlemen. I didn't have a direct contact with him.
[1:06:27] No, but he wasn't hit by a bus out of nowhere, right?
[1:06:29] No, yeah. From what I understand, there was a health incident. And after that health incident, it was about a month that he died. So roughly a month, presumably, he would have known that the end is near.
[1:06:41] And before that health incident, did he consider himself to be in good health?
[1:06:48] Good health but he was you know physically moving around independently in his 70s he didn't need a living assistance of any kind no nurses oh i forgot yeah i'd forgotten sorry.
[1:07:02] I'd forgotten how old your father was okay.
[1:07:04] Yeah he had me in his 50s so yeah right okay so he had a.
[1:07:10] Month where he knew things you know it's time to make your peace with the world right right?
[1:07:17] Yeah.
[1:07:18] And he didn't reach out at all?
[1:07:21] Well, not directly, because a health incident, it really did screw him up. I mean, he wasn't...
[1:07:28] Oh, he had a stroke. ...sitting.
[1:07:29] In bed for... Basically, yeah.
[1:07:32] So he couldn't really communicate.
[1:07:35] He could, but he couldn't. From what I understand, again, this is all through middlemen, is he could make out who was near him, and he could say, you know, hi, and how are you, and all these things. But a deep conversation about our childhood, my childhood, would have been impossible, yes.
[1:07:51] Is that because his brain had been damaged by the stroke?
[1:07:57] Presumably, yes. I don't know much of the medical details because there was a continent away. I'm giving you all I know.
[1:08:04] No, but it wasn't just that his communication abilities were damaged, but his brain as well? From what you know.
[1:08:11] Yes, everything was damaged. is from what i know it was physical mental everything just went it was a bad one yeah.
[1:08:20] So so the hammer blow of a stroke put him into a semi-vegetative state right.
[1:08:23] Yes yes he was kind of the way it was described to me was a baby like or a toddler so there was nothing like what are people.
[1:08:33] Handing you the phone what's the point of that.
[1:08:34] Well it was more about for me to say goodbye by something about hearing your voice for the last time kind of thing like him hearing your voice.
[1:08:46] Are you hearing his voice.
[1:08:47] Him hearing mine but also it might have been that he probably would have recognized me because he recognized other relatives with whom he had less contact so right i doubt that if i had spoken to him he would have had zero idea who i am he might not have been the most lucid and for how i don't know sorry for how long for.
[1:09:11] How long had you not had any real contact with him before the stroke.
[1:09:15] March of 21 was the default from both of them okay.
[1:09:21] So for three years he didn't.
[1:09:25] Contact you.
[1:09:25] Or didn't really make an effort right.
[1:09:27] Not really no.
[1:09:32] Right. Now, with your separation from your family, which is really tragic, and I'm really, really sorry you had to go through that, but with your separation from your family, was it, and I know it's not clearly one or the other, but was it more, I'm registering a protest, I hope they recognize it, or was it like, I'm totally done, I don't want them to contact me no matter what?
[1:10:02] Away no it was the second one it was the second one because we had the conversation this was just in the previous call with you and i my mother and i had the conversation where i sat her down and i said you did this and you did that and how many times did you hit me and how many times did you scream at me and why was i always afraid in childhood and why did you burden me with financial and legal problems that an 80 year old couldn't do shit about why did you include me in the worst moments and exclude me from the good moments and I sat down and I presented everything that I was carrying in my childhood and I got just not only not a stone wall but the Golden Fleece I mean a reflective mirror it was you were a bad kid and you were stoned all the time and you didn't care about school and how dare you criticize me and I was a good mother and this and that and it was just it was enraging I remember sitting there thinking if this wasn't a frail old woman and this was a man my size, I might actually lunge at him. Like this was that level of rage that I felt. And so it was fundamentally when I left that space that I was sharing with her, where we had the conversation and I said, I'm just not going to visit her and talk to her again, because that was fucking unacceptable, to be honest. I'm sorry for my language.
[1:11:22] No, that's fine. Honestly, the last thing I care about is the language. Sorry about how much you suffered.
[1:11:28] I truly appreciate you on this Stefan your compassion for a bad childhood is second to none and I think that it takes a fellow survivor to show that so I would reciprocate any sympathy and love and of course extend the same well wishes to you thank.
[1:11:45] You thank you right so they did not do much to try and resolve anything in the couple of years right.
[1:11:58] The resolutions were always centered around me. I actually got an email from my mother several months ago. It would have been early 24, late 23, where it was a long-winded email, kind of like the one I sent you. But one of the sentences in that email, without getting into detail, was, it's not too late to realize your mistake.
[1:12:17] Right.
[1:12:18] That was literally.
[1:12:19] Right. Boy, she should have really sent that to your dad, because it was almost too late. And this is why people shouldn't put these things off, because he then got a stroke and the choice was removed from him to resolve anything.
[1:12:39] Yeah.
[1:12:42] I would say I'm partially receptive, but it's not going to be easy if she was to reach out and say, I apologize and I'm willing to try and move forward. I don't know what I would say. First of all, restitution is impossible because I tried working out the money side of things and put a number on it. Again, you can never really do that with something like a childhood, but in a civil law suit, you'd have to. So I sat down and I theorized about lost income, money spent on drugs.
[1:13:18] Yeah, therapy.
[1:13:19] About lost social opportunities, lost romantic therapy itself and future therapy, which I'd like to get back into. It runs into at least 200,000.
[1:13:28] And that's pounds.
[1:13:29] That's like real money i wouldn't call the pound real money stefan you haven't seen this i'm in canada so it's.
[1:13:37] More real than my.
[1:13:38] Monopoly money okay yeah right but yes it's in the six figures that she would have to give me for me to start thinking that she's serious about restitution obviously she doesn't have six figures so what can she do i mean when you're talking about oh i'm going to flip the childhood script and instead of offering you negative shittiness I'm going to offer you love and support well it's too late, that's not restitution it's too late you're 24 years too late for that I don't accept the restitution that isn't I thought about this because sorry I'm going to make it.
[1:14:08] About me as well but for me if my mother sat down and told me the honest truth about her life I would consider that a form of restitution, And because it would answer questions, right? I mean, it could well have been that my mother was just so smashed up as a probably victim of endless rape in the chaos of bombed end-to-end Nazi Germany that she just... But the problem is that she wouldn't have the ego to be able to say anything about that. There wouldn't be anything left.
[1:14:39] I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I just sat on a shard of glass. I'm sorry. Can you please repeat the last bit?
[1:14:43] It i'm sorry you sat in a shard of glass well do you want to take care of that i don't know let's deal with that no.
[1:14:49] No no it's gone it's gone it's gone i'm just in uh abandoned nature area house.
[1:14:54] Are you okay are you bleeding yeah.
[1:14:56] Yeah i'm fine no no no no no it was just prick pricked my.
[1:14:59] Thigh but i'm fine.
[1:15:00] I'm fine please continue.
[1:15:01] You know this is just a reminder don't put shit in your back pocket that's just the glass trying to impress upon you the importance to not keep things in your back pocket um yeah no i was just saying that if i got a real honest you know if i got a real honest uh explanation from my parents about their own childhoods that would i won't get that from my father my father told me more about his life but not about his childhood really and i don't think my father was honest about his childhood and my mother certainly hasn't been very honest about her childhood other than sort of vague hints here and there but i would consider that a kind of restitution can't get it from my dad and i'll never get it from my mom so because i wouldn't trust anything she would say about anything because she all she does is manipulate So, yeah, that restitution is impossible. But that would go a long way, or would have gone a long way towards really relieving things. So, okay, so the feelings you had about your father's death.
[1:15:58] The second one after sadness was fear. Fear that I would end up like that. A genuine, genuine fear because I saw how he died alone with nobody holding his hand, with nobody willing to go the extra mile for him. It's just heartbreaking. Is that my future? Is what I thought to myself.
[1:16:22] So what were the top five or top three terrible things about your dad's older life?
[1:16:30] I would say number one, two, and three would be the isolation. Just loneliness. Nobody wanted to speak to him, to be around him. Nobody wanted to do business with him. Nobody wanted to play sports with him. Nobody wanted to have a conversation. With him just always off-putting to other people very off-putting and unpleasant friends would come family friends they would come around for a month or two and suddenly they stopped oh whatever happened to those people i don't know they were being dicks they were being arrogant he thinks he knows better than me yeah screw that guy i remember actually one of them was over what do you call it the video pranks real real time camera whatever they call it and it was a show on tv and my friend my family friend my father's friend was arguing with my father about whether or not it's scripted whether those pranks are scripted and this argument just exploded into and never speaking again because my father was dead dead dead set on all these real camera pranks the they're all fake They're all scripted. They're all bullshit. And this friend was like, no, some of them could be real. You never know. I mean, the reactions look real.
[1:17:48] Now, hang on. So do you know why your father was so adamant about that? Because it seems like a crazy thing to be adamant about. But why was your father so adamant about that?
[1:18:02] I'm assuming it would have something to do with the fact that no pleasant or positive interaction could ever be genuine.
[1:18:12] Well, it's because everything your father did was scripted. So he's raging against spontaneity and living in the moment. So he's saying they're all actors, everything's scripted because he's so reactive and defensive that everything he does. Is scripted and so it's it's a personal attack on him to say things can't be spontaneous and genuine he feels criticized so he's going to fight to the death to retain the fact that it's all scripted and fake because he's full scripted and fake.
[1:18:51] I would agree i.
[1:18:53] Mean my mother used to rage against shows oh there there's all commercials now it's just all commercials now and it's like yes so the the actual art the actual humanity of the show is being replaced by commercials and this is a time when she was getting nose jobs and using lots of makeup and so she was just advertising herself and her personality was being eclipsed by physical vanity and so she was enraged at the shows where it was all commercials right you understand that there's a weird thing that people do deep down where they get like as it doesn't make any sense until you think that you remember that really selfish people interpret everything to be about themselves. And so I would assume that that would be why your father would bust up a long-term friendship over something so ridiculous, because it's not ridiculous. It's about him. It's about him and his nature.
[1:19:48] I'm inclined to agree, yeah.
[1:19:51] Okay, so what else did you feel? You felt anger, some sadness, fear?
[1:20:00] Mm-hmm. That's about it, really. Fundamentally, I would say there was a sense of not happiness, not joy, just a sense of, justice has been. There's a sense of contentment that all of the toxicity and negativity and unpleasantness, reasserted itself in the sunset phase of his life. Yes, so this is what you did to me in childhood and you died alone.
[1:20:41] Well, not just died alone, but he lived largely alone too, right?
[1:20:45] The last few years of his life, after my sibling and I left him and my mother left him, he was alone, isolated.
[1:20:57] Right. So your fear is isolation, right?
[1:21:02] Yes.
[1:21:03] And yet, you yourself are isolated.
[1:21:14] I wouldn't say completely yet but when I look hang on no no no no.
[1:21:20] See that's a straw man right, you inserted the word completely did I say completely.
[1:21:28] No yeah well if it's one of those things that's either completely or not completely because I do have friends I do have a social circle I'm sorry did.
[1:21:37] Your father not have people who occasionally you said people came by and visited and he'd fight with them and he wasn't completely.
[1:21:42] This was early this was in my childhood no no towards the end he was completely isolated i mean this was early in my childhood when my mother and brother and i were still around and living in the same house but after the three of us left the last i think three years of his life from the lockdown until he died basically he was yes isolated completely oh no if he left my house, if he left the house once a week it would have been a miracle I swear if I'm in the middle of isolation it's something you've never seen because I asked my brother I asked so what does he do where did he go, the answers I got were just oh no he sits home TV he'll call me occasionally, that kind of thing but yeah when I say complete isolation I mean, as close as one can humanly get to that because yeah the last three years of his life I feel pretty much a monk. So, yeah, I'm not a monk yet.
[1:22:42] But that was because he'd retired, right?
[1:22:46] I don't know if it has to do with retirement, whether your kids and wife leave you. But, yeah, retirement did play a role. They're not working in general. It's going to limit the interactions you have.
[1:23:00] But he would have seen people if he'd been working, right?
[1:23:05] Yes, if he had been, yeah.
[1:23:07] Sorry, if what?
[1:23:09] If he had been working, yeah, he would have had human contact, but he didn't.
[1:23:16] So, he would have had human contact if he had been working. He would have had human contact if he'd been going to school.
[1:23:24] Yes.
[1:23:30] But he didn't have human contact from his family, and he didn't have human contact from a romantic community. companion?
[1:23:43] No, his family. Hello?
[1:23:52] I'm sorry, you just cut out for a second there. Go ahead.
[1:23:55] Sorry, yeah, he didn't have human contact with his family. No, they abandoned him.
[1:24:01] Okay, so no human contact with his family and no life partner?
[1:24:07] No.
[1:24:08] And you have no human contact with your family and no life partner.
[1:24:14] Well, I do have a brother. Sorry, you have a brother.
[1:24:17] True, true.
[1:24:20] But yes, the life partner thing is a pattern that him and I have in common. Yes, which is why I'm calling you in the hopes of breaking it.
[1:24:28] Well, I just, here's the thing, though. I mean, if your father would have had human contact from work and school, and you have some human contact from work and school, then that's not a variable that separates you. And if your father has no life partner and you have no life partner, I mean, I don't mean to alarm you, but it's not like, gosh, what if in the distant future I end up like my father? I would say that the danger is that in some ways you are there. And that's a good thing to panic about.
[1:25:11] Yes, can I offer a small counterpoint? not to be punchy but this is worth mentioning if my father had been at work and at school there is an argument to be made that his dysfunctions and his particular demons would have meant that the human contact he had would have eventually dried up and turned into nothing whereas i have held jobs for long periods of time have completed degrees have sustained contact with fellow students for years it's uh yes we would have had human contact but the quality of that human contact is significantly different i agree i'm able to keep did your father have a girlfriend sorry.
[1:25:53] Did your father have a girlfriend by 24.
[1:25:57] I don't know him and i never discussed it he only told me one incident of romance before he met my My mother.
[1:26:05] And how old was he when he met your mother?
[1:26:10] Would it be in late 40s, early 50s? I couldn't tell you.
[1:26:16] And your mother never talked about it, obviously, right?
[1:26:19] No. No, my mother is the same thing. She gave me a few glimpses into romance before my father, but never delved into anything serious.
[1:26:29] Interesting. So, you don't know anything about your parents' dating life before they were in their 40s?
[1:26:37] Just a few stories here and there. One, for me, really, but yeah.
[1:26:47] And do you know why your father married so late?
[1:26:53] Well, he never told me. I think no matter what he said, it probably would have been bullshit anyway. But if I may offer a theory, it would be that he was quite hedonistic and impulsive. He traveled the world and lived in various countries, had various careers, various businesses, just jumping from one thing or place or person to the next. And I think maybe in his 40s, it was the panic mode, desperation, settling that kicked in, if I had to guess.
[1:27:28] So it sounds like then he would have most likely been promiscuous if he was traveling around and making money in various places and so on.
[1:27:38] I genuinely don't know. I couldn't tell you either way. He told me only one relationship before my mother. That's the only one he's mentioned. I don't know if there were others or how many there were. I wish I could tell you, but I really can't.
[1:27:51] Okay. Okay. Got it. All right. So, as far as the work thing goes, the solicitor thing and so on, that's pretty specific advice. And if we can get to that, we can get to that. But my major concern is with your heart and your capacity to love and be loved. So let me ask you this. Let me ask you this. So let's say that I'm a guy who knows a lot of women, right? And you're trying to sell me on introducing you to the very best woman I know. The most moral the most virtuous like they're just the very very best woman i know you say give me give me the top tier the greatest best woman you know and i would say okay so um what are you what are you bringing to the table and why why should i because you know i mean you know how it is in the business world if you make a recommendation you're kind of putting your reputation on the line right.
[1:29:00] Yeah so.
[1:29:01] Why why would i what would uh what would you say how would you sell me on you.
[1:29:09] I would say i've got two brain cells to rub together.
[1:29:14] No no come.
[1:29:15] On seriously be serious okay no intelligence is something i would highlight but that is serious.
[1:29:25] I would say I've accumulated some wealth that I'm not rich by any means but I'm certainly ahead of where other 24-year-olds are these days.
[1:29:37] I would say I'm quite well achieved academically. I've been able to show some good achievements. I would say I can offer a sense of consistency. My routine is very consistent and pleasant, I would say, to someone to be a part of that, to share what I do, generally speaking, in terms of agriculture and exercise and nature exploration and literature. I would say I've got interesting hobbies. bees i would say i can offer you a good future because career-wise i'm on track to make a decent amount of money and connections so i would say i've got plenty to offer certainly materially now personally and spiritually i would say is where i might be less able to offer as much and outcompete other men but still i would say i can offer you safety physical safety because i don't know how to fight i do mma and i've been doing it for five years i train with people who fight professionally, so nobody will touch you when you're with me nobody will slander you.
[1:30:59] I can offer you a friendly ear at the end of a night at the end of a day sorry Sorry, in a quiet night, someone to talk to and have your opinions and concerns listened to. I'm not a bad cook either. I can offer some nice culinary skills. Yeah, that's about... I can think of them, yeah. Sorry if that was a bit long-winded.
[1:31:31] No, no, this is the summation of your value in the dating market. It could be as long winded as the, I want a resume that goes on to nine pages as long as it's not padded, right? Okay. And drawbacks? Would you want me to mention anything to her about things to watch out for?
[1:31:52] I'm a smoker. A lot of women tend not to like that.
[1:31:55] I think I thought I heard a lifer a couple of times at the convo. Okay, yeah, yeah.
[1:32:00] Yeah, smoking cigarettes. I am away a lot. I tend to spend the majority of my days outside the house rather than in.
[1:32:15] I would also say I expect a lot from a woman especially. I come from a more traditional background and I think my personal, approach towards a relationship with a woman would be one that is more traditional where she's expected to not have any male contacts, she's expected to not show a lot of skin, she's expected to not drink in any large amount. I would say, If that's too controlling, maybe the traditional stuff in the modern West, especially, that might be viewed as a drawback. I would say, obviously, lastly, is the childhood that I'm carrying. The heightened fight or flight response, the misinterpretation of innocent things to be malevolent, The tendency to, you know, slip sometimes into anger mode where I should maybe be more willing to forgive or forget or where there is a fundamental incompatibility to just disengage and say, you know, I don't have to get angry, but I don't have to be around you either. I can be peaceful in how I depart. Yeah. Those are the main drawbacks, I would say.
[1:33:41] Hmm. Okay. So, it's odd that you'd be both traditional and bisexual.
[1:33:51] And promiscuous, I might add.
[1:33:53] And promiscuous. So, you know, I mean, if you want to be Mr. Traditional, help me. I would just say, like, help me square that circle that you're promiscuous, bisexual, and also very traditional. Because those two things wouldn't necessarily all go totally hand in hand, right?
[1:34:09] Well, I said traditional when it comes to women, because men and women are not the same. Promiscuity affects us differently. me. So if I was to show up into a relationship with a body count of 12, it's not the same as a woman showing up with a body count of 12. So my own body count of 12 would be a deal breaker in a woman. And I don't think that's hypocritical. I think that's a recognition of our natural differences. So I do think when it comes to relationships with women, men, even if they are not the most traditional themselves, do have the leeway to demand a bit of extra adherence to tradition.
[1:34:49] All right.
[1:34:50] Because you need to know your baby's role. You need to be able to protect her from other men.
[1:34:56] So the traditions that give you the most liberty are the ones that you tend to prefer?
[1:35:06] Well, yes.
[1:35:08] Okay, I'm just pointing that out. I mean, I'm not saying that's the final answer, but that's something to explain. Now, let me ask you this. So, as a traditional man, would you feel comfortable with your wife going away with a bunch of men for a night out or for a weekend away?
[1:35:30] Never, no.
[1:35:32] Why not?
[1:35:36] Because I know how men think and act. And I know if she's there with a bunch of men, I might be innocent. You know, they're just close to my friends. In their mind, they've already pictured you naked. And if you give them the opportunity, if you're with them alone, it's more than likely one of them will proposition you. Or if not proposition you, then certainly flirt with you. and I'm not okay with that.
[1:36:08] Okay, so then you can't have male or female friends as a bisexual man, right? In a marriage.
[1:36:17] No, because I'm a man. I'm allowed to have fun before marriage.
[1:36:22] No, no, no, after marriage. Right, so after marriage, would you consider it okay for you to go away with a bunch of female friends or to spend a night out with some female friends?
[1:36:35] Eh, well, not where there's an overlap of preferences. So if my future wife were to hang out with a gay friend or a straight woman...
[1:36:47] No, no, I'm not talking about... I'm just talking about...
[1:36:49] I wouldn't have a problem.
[1:36:49] No, not a gay friend. So would you, as a man, be allowed to go out in the traditional context with a single heterosexual females or heterosexual females?
[1:37:04] No no no no i this is something i support mike pence on okay that if so so as a bisexual man it doesn't.
[1:37:11] Matter whether they're male or female right, so you can't go out with a night with the guys either right for your wife.
[1:37:20] Of men but if it's a straight guy and there's no chance of anything happening then yes, it's in the same way that i would be okay with my wife having a gay best friend, If I know that there is zero chance of anything happening, it's fine.
[1:37:37] Okay, so if your wife would be straight and your wife would out be socializing with a group of lesbian friends, you'd be fine with that?
[1:37:47] Not really, no. Because I know what they want.
[1:37:50] So you would get a little tangled here, right?
[1:37:53] I think LGBT+, whatever label you want to put on it, has a tendency to get everyone tangled into knots.
[1:38:00] Right. So I'm just saying that the bisexuality is a complication for a wife. Because, I mean, obviously.
[1:38:17] It's more people you can cheat with.
[1:38:19] So to speak, right?
[1:38:19] Possibly. Yes. And not only more people you can cheat with, but what if you woke up one day and decided that you couldn't live without, you know, male company for the rest of your life? It's not just the adultery, but the decision-making, where you might just decide, nah, I don't want to forego half the data market.
[1:38:40] I mean, Freddie Mercury... It's not just adultery on the outright end. I mean, Freddie Mercury started off... Straightish, then went bi, and then went gay, and left the woman, Mary Austin I think her name was, left her. It's a slight complication, to put it mildly, right?
[1:39:00] Yes. It is a complication.
[1:39:03] Okay.
[1:39:05] The last woman I was with didn't mind.
[1:39:07] I'm sorry?
[1:39:08] I'll remark on that. The last woman I was with did not mind, and I told her on our first date So there are women out there. It's just going to limit my options because there are women out there for whom it would be a deal breaker. But there are women out there for whom it would not be. So I still have prospects, I would say.
[1:39:28] Yes, but that relationship didn't work out. I'm not saying for that reason alone or maybe not even that reason specifically, but it didn't work out.
[1:39:37] It didn't work out because I was a twat. It has nothing to do with my bisexuality. That didn't come up in any conversation beyond the first date.
[1:39:49] Okay.
[1:39:50] It was barely a factor in why and how things ended the way they did.
[1:39:53] Right. Okay. Okay. So, I think one of the things that would make, the danger for you is power, right? And listen, it's the danger for all of us. The danger for all of us is power. You know, when I became a father, man, it's just incredible how much power you have over your kids. It's mind-blowing how sensitive they are to your thoughts, your moods, and how much they want to please you. Like, it's a crazy amount of power. And I think, based on your upbringing and your culture to some degree, maybe a little bit of your nature and just being a man, I think, you know, the first thing that has to happen, I think, for a woman to feel secure with you is she has to feel that you will never misuse your power. Because, man, falling in love is giving someone power over you.
[1:40:48] And maybe that's a little bit what bothered you with the guy with the texting that he gave you too much power too soon it seemed maybe needy i mean i get all of that but when you're in love with someone their approval means everything to you their continuance of the relationship, means everything to you you know i mean when people get attacked in public it's really the relationships that they're attacking i mean there is the income and and the reputation and so on But they're also going after the relationships. So the question I think for you is, how are you going to be vulnerable in a relationship and really need someone and love someone without recoiling from that into wanting to feel safe and secure, which for you, I think, means superior and distant?
[1:41:43] I'll need to let go of my tendency to view things in that frame and instead move towards a more productive, ethical frame.
[1:41:55] I think so. And the big challenge, of course, is that which is unconscious to us. So I don't know what you should do. If I were in your shoes, I would say, if I met someone that I really wanted to date and be in a relationship with, I would say, I have a tendency towards punchiness, a little bit of arrogance, to thinking I'm right. So I'm going to work on that, but I'm going to ask you for a tiny favor. Maybe it's not a tiny favor. I'm going to ask you for a favor, which is I'm going to give you a word. I don't know, maybe a word in Arabic or Swedish or some word, right? I'm going to give you a word. We'll call it verboten. Let's go German, right? We'll give you a word, verboten. Now, if you see me doing this, I want you to stand up and say, verboten, and then that'll be your safe word for when I have a bad habit coming on, and I will absolutely surrender to your perception and stop what I'm doing. And that way, somebody has power over you that is, they have full authority to stop you in your tracks and then getting used to someone having power over you is really important my wife has immense immeasurable power over me is.
[1:43:10] It not a bit too much though.
[1:43:11] Too much what seems.
[1:43:13] Like you're giving away power.
[1:43:16] If i tell someone you can just stand up that's what love is you're giving away power. You have to trust her judgment to the point where she says verboten and you stop what you're doing. And you trust her judgment. Because if you don't trust her judgment, why would you be with her?
[1:43:40] It's a fair point. It might be a wise strategy to compensate for my, ability to remark on that tendency and stop it in its tracks, it does seem like a power that can be abused but fundamentally the trust that i would have going into the relationship should serve as a guarantor that that trust will not be abused otherwise i mean obviously she has to trust.
[1:44:12] You on some things as well too right like if she has a male.
[1:44:16] Friend and you say.
[1:44:17] That guy wants to sleep with you, you know, she's at least got to listen to you make your case, right?
[1:44:23] Yes, I will.
[1:44:24] And how do we know that he wants to sleep with her? Because he's a male friend, and that's what male friends do. They circle around like half-gay cuttlefish trying to sleep with the girls. I mean, that's what male friends do. So she would obviously trust you on some things as well, but surrendering to somebody else's authority is one of the great powers of marriage. I mean, it feels like vulnerability, but it's so much better. I mean, if you had somebody, I don't know if you watch football, right? But if you had somebody who came out, gave you a yellow flag every time you started to get pointlessly punchy, that'd be kind of helpful to you, wouldn't it? Oh, shoot. Yes, thank you. Sorry, I'll stop this. Not a good, right? So it would just be a way of outsourcing your conscience and having course correction on the things you can't see, which I can't see in myself. And like, it's really hard to see yourself, right? So, being able to outsource your conscience to a partner gives you much more liberty of action because you're not constantly stopping and having to check yourself, am I doing the right thing? Am I doing the wrong? Like, being able to outsource it to someone who can see clearly, right? I mean, think of, you know, if you need to check, you're a young man, right? When you get older, you need to check your skin from weird moles, right? Now, if I didn't have a wife, right?
[1:45:37] With a mirror, you know, some weird yoga position and, you know, like contortionist thing. I'm looking like pink kanji or something like that, right? But with a wife, you can just say, can you have a look at my back? She just looks at your back, right? I mean, there's an old joke about married couples, right? Like, you send your wife a nude selfie and she's like, which mold do you want me to check? You know, that's what it's like. So, So in terms of watching your back, if you have someone to watch your back, that's just so much easier. You can then outsource your conscience to someone else. Someone else can outsource your conscience to you, right? I mean, so with parenting, mothers tend to be too cautious and fathers tend to be not quite cautious enough. And somewhere in the middle is a good balance. So sometimes when my daughter was younger, sometimes I'd say to my wife, she should try this risk, like my daughter should try this risk. And sometimes my wife would say, that's too risky. And through that negotiation, you end up with a very safe environment for your children. Safe, but not so safe that it becomes dangerous because they don't learn how to assess risk. Does that sort of make sense?
[1:46:47] Yes, yes, a push and a pull.
[1:47:15] Parenting and bubble wrap children because they don't have men to say, no, it's fine. She falls, she'll get back up, right? She'll be fine. So, it's the same thing with the conscience and self-knowledge. If you have someone who truly loves you and understands you, your strengths and your weaknesses, then you have someone who's truly watching your back. And then you don't have to watch your back as much because you get that kind of feedback and you can really let rip in life. You can really just go for it, knowing that if your wife isn't saying anything, you're fine. Because if you weren't fine, she'd be saying something. thing.
[1:47:51] And it's very, very productive and very, very helpful. But to do that, you have to absolutely carve off part of your conscience and hand it over to your partner. And they have to watch your back. And if they're saying everything's fine, everything's fine. If they're saying there's a problem, there's a problem. And that's part of the strength and power of the marital relationship. But that does mean a surrender of your own personal authority. And of course, I understand for you to surrender your own personal authority, really goes against your instincts because your parents would abuse that power, on a regular basis, and teachers often do as well, and other authority figures and so on, right? Oh, are you concerned about the environment? Well, we're going to tell you the planet's turning into Venus, and we can fix it if you give us a bazillion dollars in taxes. You know, nonsense like that, right? So that, I think, would be useful, and that's why I'm not saying you would literally have a word that the woman would stand up and say verboten it's just an analogy but if she says i think you're being defensive you have to say okay i'm going to assume that's true now again doesn't mean that she runs everything and you can never say anything but uh you have to trust her to that degree and if you don't that's pretty important to the relationship and i think.
[1:49:14] People like to feel trusted i mean if you have something to say to your wife i'm just going to say wife maybe it's going to be a man or whatever right but if you have something to say to your wife and you're absolutely certain you want her to listen right and it would be pretty efficient if you were to say you know that guy who you think is a male friend he just wants to sleep with you, and it would be very efficient if she just said okay you know you mean you you know men i'll trust you on that. And she would have just, as opposed to arguing with you, no, no, he's just a buddy. He doesn't care about that. And you know, anything like that, that would just be, especially when you know you're right. So yeah, just surrendering your conscience to someone else is really tough for children of abuse and neglect. But it is pretty essential, I think, to having a functional relationship, because otherwise you just spend a lot of time trying to avoid the judgment of someone you claim to trust. And that's usually not very productive. You know, this guy on the text, he said, you're giving indications that you're not interested, right? That's what he said. And you're like, you're crazy. You're paranoid. Forget it. You know, I'm not going to meet up with you, right? Or he said, we're not going to meet up.
[1:50:27] He was the one who canceled. Yeah, he canceled.
[1:50:29] I get that, right? So he said, you're giving off signs that you're not interested. Now, if you were, I'm not saying after four days of texting, but if you were in a relationship, relationship. One of the things about being in a relationship is your partner is right until proven otherwise.
[1:50:48] And that's a tough thing, you know, for us go-it-alone kind of guys, that's a tough thing to have in our heads, to just surrender and say, you know, like, when I started getting back into the business world, my, you know, I was used to being the owner of the company and so I could dress however I wanted. When I started getting back into the the business world, my wife was like, you know, man, you've got to revamp your wardrobe, right? And I was like, no, I know what I'm doing, blah, blah, blah. And eventually I just had to say, you know what? Maybe she's right. And as it turns out, she was right. She was right. And she's been right about a lot of things that I was certain about and was wrong about. And that's great. I mean, I don't consider that humiliating. I consider that like, wow, how smart am I to choose a woman who's got judgment that good. And how great is it for me to just, for my wife to say, you know, X, Y, and Z, I'm like, yeah, okay, I'll just do it your way.
[1:51:44] It's not my particular way, but I trust your judgment, and you're right, and she was right, and it's wonderful, but it does feel like surrendering power, and then that's always resulted in humiliation in the past, like in childhood and so on, but if you can't surrender power, you can't pair bond, because pair bond is trust, and whenever you don't surrender power to someone, you're saying, I don't trust you. I don't trust you. You're going to misuse this power. You're going to abuse me. You're going to neglect me. I won't let you have power over me, and it's like, okay, then stay alone, right? Because the whole point is to trust someone. That's what pair bonding is, just trust.
[1:52:20] And trusting that the person is not telling you to do something in order to bully or humiliate you or have power or control over you, but because they genuinely want to help you, right? Like, I mean, if you say to your wife, this guy you think is your friend, he just wants to sleep with you, it's because you want to keep her safe and you want to keep her protected. And you want her to not be in embarrassing, difficult, compromised situations. And you, you know, maybe you don't have much sympathy for the guy, but it certainly is better for him to take his mangy ass somewhere else and go pursue a woman who's not your wife or girlfriend or something like that. So you're just desperate for that person to take what you say as gospel. And if you can do that, then you're pair bonded. And if you can't, then, you know, life, you know, life doesn't get easier. You said you want the peace, right? Hey, man, I understand that we all want the peace and the peace comes about because we trust our partner and you know basically when they say jump we say okay how high and they do that with us in some areas too so i hope that helps in terms of trying to get you the peace that you want which i think is great.
[1:53:32] I would agree that one of the things that has held me back, not only in terms of relationship, but friendships too, is the unwillingness to delegate judgment to others. Yes, that when a situation arises where it's, I'm right and you're wrong, my unwillingness to reconsider has been a problem. And I do have a tendency to say, I know best, or that I'm not going to do what you say because, yeah, to do so would be a form of submission.
[1:54:19] Definition right and.
[1:54:20] That is an unproductive attitude and and it's it has cost me.
[1:54:25] Well especially because you also want the woman you do want the woman to or the man whoever let's just say the woman for the sake of argument you do want the woman to submit to you right and to your arguments and perspectives in some areas and.
[1:54:39] Yes exactly not fully not a slave relationship.
[1:54:43] But But yes.
[1:54:43] I do expect to be taken at my word, at face value on certain things. Right.
[1:54:50] Right. Right. So it's one thing if you say, I want submission, but I won't do it. That's going to be tough for someone, right? Because then it's like, okay, so you just want power, right? But if you want power over someone and you want things to be equal, then you have to surrender power to them as well. Well, otherwise, you're just going to end up with somebody who's kind of broken and half-enslaved, and I wouldn't recommend that. Because a woman who is smart and respects her own judgment, she's not going to want to fight with you on everything.
[1:55:29] Yeah, you'll also be able to engage in the give and take of a relationship, which are some skills I would definitely benefit by sharpening. And again, not just in romance, but in everything, in friendship, in business, in everything.
[1:55:50] So, yeah, I think that's most of what I wanted to get across, if that helps out. Is that a decent place to start?
[1:55:56] No, it's a wonderful place to start. And I did have going back to therapy on the back of my mind. So, the punchiness and the power relation thing, it's, to be honest, I'm kind of mad at my therapist now for not bringing it up. Because we covered fight or flight related to the childhood and my tendency to miss certain things. But that's a brilliant expanding on the concept of fight or flight and the consequences of a broken fight or flight mechanism that I think any half-decent therapist would have been able to expand upon. So I might go back just not to that same therapist.
[1:56:35] Yeah, I obviously can't speak to what happened in your therapy. But also, you may not have fought with your therapist in the way that you fought with me, so it might not have been as obvious. I mean, it's funny because it's almost like you go to the dentist, you say, my gums are bleeding and they say, well, you need to floss. No, I don't. I floss. I floss perfectly.
[1:56:50] Right. It's like, well, if you're going to go to your dentist, then you might want to listen to your dentist. So like the fact that you were punchy with me, I love you for it. Like, I'm really, I'm really thankful that you did that. That was very honest and direct. And it certainly pointed me in the right direction of ways that I think our conversation could be most productive. And, and, you know, don't, the punchy stuff is great, man. Like, don't, I'm not, don't lose the punchy stuff. You know what it's like? It's like if you're really good at throwing a spear and taking down a boar, man, you throw that spear, you take down the boar, you just don't hunt your family at home with a spear, right? The punchiness is for outside. You know, we are a lion outside. We are a lamb at home. And I think that's the best way to work it. So, yeah, I respect the punchiness, man. I'm the last guy to say don't be punchy. I'm punchy as hell, but just not at home.
[1:57:40] No, yes, yes, you're absolutely right. The punchiness is a useful tool, but not every problem is a nail, so to speak.
[1:57:47] Yeah, the course is not in session at home. All right. Will you keep me posted about how it's going?
[1:57:52] Thank you so much, Stefan.
[1:57:53] Take care.
[1:57:54] Thank you. Have a wonderful day and God bless.
[1:57:56] Bye-bye.
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