0:00 - Defoing Decision
5:13 - Unattractive Encounter
9:13 - Childhood Influences
12:02 - Emotional Healing and Defooing
19:23 - Relationship Dynamics
23:53 - Communication Dilemma
25:59 - Delayed Communication
28:04 - Personal Boundaries
31:29 - Manipulative Apologies
32:47 - Closure Resolution
36:48 - Inner Parents and Self-Protection
55:34 - Inner Father's Job and Aggressive Guys
1:07:08 - Needy Relationships and Chaos Handling
1:13:53 - Romantic Interest and Dating Intentions
1:17:23 - The Urgency of Moving Forward
1:31:48 - Embracing Responsibility and Free Will
1:40:47 - Judging Ourselves by Objective Standards
1:46:55 - Learning the Language of Safety
1:50:29 - Recognition of Magnificence
In this episode, we hear from a caller who has made the difficult decision to distance herself from her family permanently. She opens up about past struggles with people-pleasing behavior and the complexities of her family dynamics, particularly her ambivalence about cutting ties with her father. Despite the challenges she faces, she expresses a sense of liberation and newfound happiness in her decision.
Moving on, Stefan engages in a conversation with a caller who is hesitant to sever ties with their manipulative parents. The caller details the manipulative behavior, especially the mother's fake apologies and gaslighting tactics. Stefan encourages the caller to prioritize their well-being and consider blocking their parents for closure, even if it means cutting off contact completely.
Delving into a philosophical discussion, Stefan explores the concept of inner parents and their influence on relationships with a caller. They discuss how past experiences may impact behaviors and choices, particularly in romantic relationships with dysfunctional partners. Stefan encourages the caller to reflect on seeking control through aggressive partners and the role of the inner father in maintaining that control.
The speaker addresses a caller's nervousness towards forming relationships due to past experiences, emphasizing rational morality in assessing character. They offer empathy and guidance on navigating turbulent life changes, highlighting the importance of self-care, boundaries, and managing expectations in relationships during transformative experiences.
Shifting focus to a potential romantic interest, the main speaker stresses honesty and openness in building a healthy relationship. They advise against judgment, promoting mutual respect and equality in the budding relationship, urging the caller to be self-aware and proactive in fostering a positive connection.
Lastly, a caller shares struggles with low self-esteem and insecurity despite positive life changes, especially in social situations. Stefan advises focusing on objective standards rather than others' opinions, addressing negative self-perceptions and comfort in secure relationships. The conversation ends with Stefan praising the caller's strength and resilience, encouraging pride in their journey towards self-improvement.
[0:00] I will be defoing from my family this weekend, which was last weekend. My parents know I want time to heal and go no contact, however they think it's temporary. I think the truth is that I want to immediately cut contact permanently once moved, so I know they're out of my life forever.
[0:18] I'm not sure if this is very Russian rational, but if they were to die tomorrow, I would have no regrets, alongside having had no desire to spend time with them for a couple of years already, excluding obligation feelings and using them for resources i am not even sure if permanently defooing is the right thing to do the people pleasing has improved a lot since we last spoke however still significantly really significantly affects me on a day-to-day basis for example i keep choosing bad men and creeps maybe creeps a wrong word but i keep choosing bad men And I've had dishonest friendships and a relationship in which I people-pleased and was a voluntary in bracket slave, as talked about in real-time relationships. Now I only want honest friendships. And once I've healed more, which is hopefully not long now, meet a husband and build a family. But that feels like a world's away. I don't know what it would feel like to even just be happy and just have a happy relationship. relationship i have no idea what that would look like.
[1:31] Right right and okay i'm sure that there's more that you want to add so i can hear and if you could just just a minor technical thing if you could back off from the mic a little bit i'm getting some breath noises sorry no no problem yeah so i'm sure there's more What do you want to add? And I'm all ears.
[1:48] Yeah. Okay. So regarding men, I've been, I've spoken to a few men. So I had a relationship from December to July last year. And it was a completely dishonest relationship. He was less intelligent than me, still intelligent. And it was sort of like a safe haven. I was with him for the sake of being with someone so I was using him I then broke up with him because I realized oh my gosh we have nothing in common there's no deep conversations this is as dead as it humanly gets and then after my friend introduced me to a guy and I told him from the get-go I don't want a date or anything just want to be friends and then somehow we started doing things that That friends don't do. And. He knew about my people pleasing. But. It was still. Dishonest and passive. Whilst we were doing.
[2:58] Oh, I think, sorry, I don't know if you pulled a cord or something, but I heard a click and then you were gone.
[3:06] Is this okay?
[3:08] Oh, yeah, sorry. You just clicked and you're gone. Now you're back. Sorry, go ahead.
[3:12] Okay. So not sex, but intimate things. Not as, I won't go into detail. So, but I would even be like, I don't even, I hate this. I feel disgusted. and we would still do it even though i felt that way and i would openly say it during it sometimes.
[3:33] And i'm sorry to interrupt and i you know obviously i don't mean to pry i just want to make sure i understand did you feel disgusting just because you were having sex with a guy you didn't really like or was there it wasn't sorry go ahead it.
[3:48] Was kissing and i feel awkward going into detail of people going to hear this.
[3:55] No that's but it doesn't involve anything you're not comfortable with i absolutely don't but i just wanted to make sure i let's say it's just kissing we just say kissing plus or whatever we don't have to get into details yeah kissing plus so did you feel grossed out because of the kissing plus or because of him.
[4:16] Him i'm that's interesting i was never once attracted to him i actually felt embarrassed when we first met hanging out with him in public which is a really which is shameful.
[4:28] No no no okay sorry i hate to be annoying you know and you're doing great but if you could just hold off on the self-attacking moral judgments you know because they're kind of tough to listen to okay It's shameful. It's like, no, it's not shameful. What was wrong with how he looked that this was embarrassing or he was so unattractive?
[4:46] His face.
[4:49] Okay, so what was wrong with his face?
[4:52] It just wasn't. I don't know. I've never got this before, but there was just something that just looked very... embarrassing i can't put a finger on it was he like a chinless wanderer.
[5:12] Did he have weird hair or.
[5:13] Did he have that wasn't good okay but was he fat was he was no he had a very good physique okay but he didn't know how to dress okay.
[5:25] So he's a man.
[5:26] He was like a mother's boy okay okay so.
[5:30] Was it something in the eyes something in the demeanor like he just seemed like a loser or like what was it that gave you the ick so bad he.
[5:40] Was confident but he was just ugly okay.
[5:45] And he was ugly was it he was ugly for things outside of his control right like his facial structure is just his.
[5:52] Facial yeah right yeah okay he looked bellow about glasses on but he always wore glasses but yeah it was just out of his control i guess he could have controlled the facial hair a tiny bit more and they used on that before and the hair a teeny bit more and then he could address better and that would have made it maybe but yeah it was more so just, fingers out of his control okay.
[6:16] So and i'm sorry to stall right at the beginning here but i mean it's a very interesting thing that you're talking about i i my gut says it has some real relevance.
[6:26] So and.
[6:27] And you the the previous guy was not as intelligent how was this guy in terms.
[6:32] Of the smartitude oh yeah with my ex i did have sex which i regret so i've done it once like with one guy and how did he look much better looking he also went to the gym um he was a teeny bit chubby but i was also a teeny bit chubby but he had a like good physique he was strong he had a pretty face like yeah good looking guy and he had state not status status but he had friends and well i guess the other guy also had a lot of friends but sorry so what i'm sort of trying to understand is.
[7:06] You said that you're.
[7:07] Walking with my ex i'm sorry i felt good walking with my ex i felt embarrassed walking with the guy from September to, let's say, recently.
[7:21] Yeah, we can say ex and new guy, just so we can differentiate these two. Now, you said, did I get this right? You said your ex wasn't so smart. What about new guy?
[7:29] He was a network engineer, so he was intelligent. But he just was... Like any other human, no deep conversations, no depth, no passion, didn't read, didn't have any hobbies besides video games and going to the gym and drinking alcohol. And he was a typical British 20-something year old.
[7:59] And particularly kind of concrete, like an engineer, not much into abstractions and so on, right?
[8:04] Yeah.
[8:06] There is good or is it the soul? No poetry. Okay. yeah i've worked with people like that all right and so and so but somebody was saying wasn't smart at least that was my understanding and is that new guy or was the did i just misunderstand that completely um.
[8:21] X it's not that he wasn't smart i mean he has an average intelligence it's that i was just a lot smarter and into deeper things.
[8:30] Okay so he would be smarter at engineering but But you'd be smarter at other things like around wisdom and curiosity and life.
[8:37] Yeah, but I almost got into network engineering out of people pleasing and codependency.
[8:45] I'm sorry, I didn't quite follow that. Could you repeat that?
[8:47] I almost got into that sector. It was like, why not do network engineering? I was like, sure. And I studied for it and made notes. And then part of me was just like, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not going to do this.
[8:57] Right. Okay. All right.
[8:59] That happened with my first boyfriend. So in the UK, there were A-levels. And I was going to do psychology, biology, and geography. And my ex was like, no, they're such bad feminist subjects, whoever.
[9:13] So I ended up doing maths and computer science.
[9:18] Sorry, now, oh, this is the network engineer.
[9:21] That was the first boyfriend, the maths and computer science guy. Second boyfriend, network engineer.
[9:28] Okay, and then new guy. All right. So your first boyfriend said, don't do the psychology, geography stuff, do maths and computer engineering. So that's what you did?
[9:39] Yeah.
[9:40] Okay. And how did that work out for you?
[9:42] You I ended up dropping out of school at the next year but that was more so because, of I started speaking to a narcissist and I was young at the time and he was mid-20s so we had a big age gap this is when I was still in school and we spent all our time together and he had a massive influence on me I went from being in my parents control to being a slave to this narcissist slave as in I had complete free will to be there but I was treating him like a master and I was making myself a slave I have complete free will in that, yeah so.
[10:26] Sorry I mean not your fault because it's your life we're skipping around a little bit so the narcissist tell me a little bit about that situation how did that come about but he wasn't a boyfriend right?
[10:40] No, we actually talked about him in my first show. So he was my best friend at the time. He was all the way from another continent. We spoke every day for a year and a half, pretty much. And it started all nice. We'd have all these deep, amazing conversations. I didn't think there was anything like him in the world. And it just turned toxic at the end. I talked about betraying him on my last call but you thought back on the fact was that actually a betrayal or not but it turns out and then when he, ditched me and stopped talking to me because of a choice I made, when he stopped talking to me I was like oh my gosh am I the most selfish person ever and he just kept insulting me and called me a bunch of derogatory names.
[11:32] Right right okay He.
[11:35] Also introduced me to you.
[11:37] Right, right, right. It certainly is interesting, the variety of people who listen. I think some people listen to me because they want the truth, and the other people listen to me because they want to know how the human mind works so they can better disassemble it. That's sort of my rough guess. Okay. All right. So, with regards to what happened last weekend.
[12:02] Tell.
[12:03] Me all about it.
[12:04] I moved i'm here now i'm in another country technically right um it was smooth sailing i am old guy not old guy new guy helped me move but i did say beforehand i do not want to be friends with you after this and i wouldn't like to speak with you or hang out with of you even though he was driving all the way because we needed two cars to fit all my stuff i wouldn't have been able to just fit it in mine but this is the guy you said you.
[12:35] Only wanted to be friends at the beginning and then you ended up.
[12:37] Making out with him right yeah so.
[12:40] He may have been like yeah yeah sure we'll just be friends right.
[12:43] Whatever right yeah all.
[12:46] Right i know a little bit about how men work and uh we uh we sometimes are like i can fit like cats under doors i can fit through that i can get through that.
[12:55] So freaking passive go on no he was the most passive guy ever the pink like he was so passive he didn't even ever feel desire he only ever initiated for me once which was after i stopped talking to him and um the guy that introduced me to him for a short time um but that was the only time he ever initiated hanging out with me and he says he's He's never initiated with any of his friends either, and he simply forgets to initiate because he is in his own little world. And I almost got in a relationship with him. He asked me to be his girlfriend at like 1 a.m., 2 a.m. Completely impulsively.
[13:40] So he initiated that.
[13:42] Yeah, but it was at like 1 or 2 a.m. And it was out of more so feelings of guilt or I'm guessing because of the more intimate style things we are doing. Most of his friends are religious.
[13:53] Okay. okay so with regards to last weekend your issue was around the defooing which of course i'm very sorry to hear about it's always a tragic situation.
[14:05] Yeah so.
[14:06] I asked you what happened last weekend you said i moved.
[14:10] Oh i do feel that you could break.
[14:13] It out just a tiny bit more since that seems to be the core topic.
[14:15] Yes uh-huh i would say that would be like a 50 50 topic i'd like to focus half on the defu and half on the how do I not choose bad guys but for the defu so um I told my parents that I would like to go a few months not speaking um just to give myself some time and that oh I just want time to heal x y and z so I'm not speaking to them now and they're as far away from me as it gets but I haven't permanently cut things off yet and I feel so ambivalent so ambivalent about it I know regarding my father he is as lost cause and as no hope as it gets he can rot away there's I've tried I've spoken to them and confronted them not much only recently really when I finished start er I've only confronted them a couple of times like the past couple of months I um because I I mean I guess when I was a kid I confronted them all the time so I used to confront them all the time up until the age of 16 17 so I knew how it worked out I did it my whole life so.
[15:32] No wonder I held off but I did it again recently and this is how my dad's language went I say he hit me he say a light tap I say he screamed at me to the point the neighbors here he would say yell I say control me he would say oh we probably did you see he would he'd and then the only thing he took responsibility was I'm sorry I yelled at you sometimes that's wrong he is as lost hope cause as it gets there's not an ounce of me that ever wants to speak with him and he's actually been tell me if i'm speaking too much and you'd like to interrupt me um.
[16:15] No, yeah, don't worry. I'll manage my side. You do yours.
[16:18] Okay. So he's actually been a care home for a year and a half. My family situation is very disgusting and evil.
[16:26] Sorry, he's been what for a year and a half?
[16:28] In a care home for a year and a half.
[16:30] Oh, sorry. Okay, got it.
[16:31] My mom kicked him out of the house he's paying for. She lives there without a job and gets to do whatever she likes every single day. Meanwhile, he's in a care home yet paying for the house, and he's not even in that house. She doesn't even work.
[16:45] Sorry, but why is he in a care home rather than living in a department?
[16:48] He had a stroke in November of 2020-something, a couple of years ago. So it makes him living life harder. But yeah, so my mom gets to live her best life. She doesn't work. She just has a house to herself. She goes to the gym several hours a day, though right now she's unwell with something. thing but like she lives on her own little fairyland and complains and there's always a poor helpless victim vindictive bitch and um can i swear.
[17:25] You certainly can. I don't want you to self-censor, so go for it. If I faint, don't worry about it. I'll recover soon.
[17:34] Okay. Okay, so I feel so much happier now. I haven't had it in a long time. I'm teary-eyed.
[17:44] Oh, you mean as a whole or in this moment? Right now. Oh, good. Good. I'm glad. Well, I'm obviously glad to be talking and glad to be hearing. I'm not obviously happy about the content, of course, right? But I'm certainly happy to be having a conversation. And so, yeah, I'm yours for an hour or two. So, go for it. So, your dad's in the care home and your mom kicked him out.
[18:09] And my mom's in fairyland.
[18:11] I'm sorry. Why did your mom kick him out? Was it because he was unwell?
[18:14] Because he's hard to look after she didn't want to wipe his butt and everything now.
[18:19] He didn't recover much from the stroke is that right because sometimes.
[18:22] People can wrestle back walk a bit like with a stick like to an end of a corridor but like not much besides that but honestly i don't think he put the work in he should have there were hiccups and stuff and then i remember when he was at home my mom was feeding him unhealthy food we talked about this in the first corner, but she was fattening him up like a narwhal again because she's a thing evil.
[18:48] And now, sorry, how is his health outside of the stroke? In other words, is he going to live for a while, or is he decaying physically?
[19:01] I rarely visit him, but he's not decaying. His brain's completely healthy. His body's He's, well, stroke-ified, but his body's okay.
[19:13] I guess.
[19:13] Like, it doesn't seem like he's going to die anytime soon or anything. So it seems like he's going to live a fair bit longer. But yeah, he's like just doing nothing every day, probably.
[19:23] And sorry, just remind me of your age range. You don't have to tell me specifics. I am...
[19:31] Early 20s early.
[19:32] 20s okay right so he could he could go on for another 30 plus years right yeah okay.
[19:39] Um but regarding the care home what i was going to get into is i never felt a desire to see him the only time i felt a desire was out of obligation because he paid for my car insurance and whatever else.
[19:53] Right.
[19:57] But, yeah, I don't want him in my life. I want him gone forever. And now I'm as far away as it gets. But I haven't told him I want to permanently stop speaking. I haven't yet sent him that message.
[20:11] Sorry, why would you need to send him that message?
[20:16] Because it would feel like the rope is cut. they're actually gone forever but.
[20:23] That's in your heart right I'm not agreeing or disagreeing I'm just you seem to be like it's an absolute I have to tell them blah blah blah right I mean so I'm not sure why because won't that just stir up a hornet's nest.
[20:39] Yeah but it still feels temporary I just don't it still feels like they're controlling me just with the fact I just want to be like, you're gone forever.
[20:52] No, no. But you see, if you have to send them the letter, they're still controlling you. It's a choice. It's an option. Maybe it's a good idea. Maybe it's not. I don't know. But if you have to send them the letter, that's not escaping their control.
[21:07] Why? I'm confused.
[21:09] You have to.
[21:11] No, I mean like out of my choice.
[21:14] Well, okay. And if it's your choice, that's fine. But you said have to. And have to does not indicate choice. You know, like I have to pay my taxes. That's not necessarily a choice. I have to go to the dentist because my tooth is hurting. That's not necessarily choice.
[21:34] I want to then. I want nothing to do with them. And I want them gone forever.
[21:38] I'm not disagreeing with you about that. Wanting nothing to do with them does not necessitate communicating that to them. Like if you say, and again, maybe it's the right thing to do, maybe it's the wrong thing to do, but it's not an obligation. so if it's easier for you and better for you then you can just say that i'm taking a break goes on and on right now if you do want to if you if it's closure and and so on but i suppose my concern is that is it easier sometimes to fade away or is it easier to blow the trumpets when you leave.
[22:15] I mean blowing the trumpets will cause havoc and fading away won't cause any havoc.
[22:23] Right and i i don't you know if the parents were with this bad and and so on i'm not sure that there's much of an obligation and to be in communication i mean will they respect what you're saying they.
[22:39] Respected that what i told them both that i don't want to speak for a few months and they were like uh yeah we're sad we wish you the best we won't contact you.
[22:49] Okay so what happens if you say never contact me again.
[22:56] It would blow trumpets horns, maybe. They would maybe get angry. I'm not too sure, but it would sort of give me that peace. Maybe it wouldn't and I'm fooling myself, but I'm thinking it would give me that peace that the rope is fully tied and I never need to speak to them again or have anything to do with them. But why would I need to tell them that? Can't I simply just ignore them?
[23:29] Well, I mean, you're on the other side of the world. You're in another country. I mean, it's going to be pretty easy to not have any particular communication, right?
[23:39] Yeah, very easy.
[23:40] Right. And again, I don't know, obviously, whether it's the right or wrong thing. My only concern was that you said, well, I have to send this letter. I have to, whatever, right?
[23:48] Yeah. It just still feels like they're there.
[23:53] Like I see their messages. They're not blocked. they're just there sorry what do you mean you see their messages as in i could go on to like messages and they'd be one of the messages on there because i haven't blocked them.
[24:07] So you said i don't want to be in contact for a couple of months and they keep messaging you i'm not sure i fully know.
[24:12] But i know i haven't blocked them though so they'd come up on my contacts list.
[24:23] But they're not messaging you?
[24:27] No. My mom did regarding clothes, but I just said, no, you can just do what you like. Please don't message me.
[24:36] Sorry, she said, your mother said, please don't.
[24:38] Because I had extra clothes and stuff in my room I didn't take with me. She just messaged about that.
[24:45] Okay. So they are not contacting you at the moment?
[24:50] Yeah, they're not contacting me. Okay.
[24:53] And your concern is they show up in your contacts?
[24:57] No, more so that they're just in my contact list still, that they're not blocked.
[25:05] Right, okay. And what's wrong with blocking them and then deciding in a couple of months?
[25:12] I could block them now. That would be nice.
[25:17] So why haven't you? Again, I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't, but why haven't you?
[25:21] I told them I wouldn't block them.
[25:25] And why did you say that oh because in case there's an emergency or something like that.
[25:30] I don't care if there's an emergency i don't care if they die tomorrow.
[25:36] Okay so that sounds.
[25:38] No that doesn't.
[25:39] No again i i understand the the temptation to oh that sounds terrible blah blah blah but but it doesn't well i mean it is what it is i was you know my sympathy is helpful yeah my sympathy is with you as the child because you were not in a chosen relationship your parents chose to have children, sorry.
[25:58] Sorry i'm interrupting you.
[26:00] There's quite a lot of that if i'm not sure if we have a delay or something like that but i feel like i start talking and then i get about three seconds if that makes sense and then you're saying and again i want to hear and all of that but it's a little tricky it's.
[26:15] Not you it's not a delay i i'm really bad at interrupting people No.
[26:20] Hey, I appreciate the enthusiasm. So that's totally fine. So if you don't want to hear from them, why did you say you wouldn't block them? And again, I'm not criticizing, I'm just curious.
[26:33] Maybe I think to make them less scared.
[26:37] Okay, got it.
[26:39] Or more calm about it.
[26:41] Right. Okay. Okay. So would your goal be to send the message, let's say in a couple of months, you haven't changed your mind and it doesn't sound like you will. Is your goal then to message your parents and say, peace out forever, and then you would immediately block them and they would have no way of contacting you? Is that right?
[27:07] Yes, but I would like to do that now rather than in a couple of months.
[27:16] And you don't because you said you wouldn't?
[27:19] And I haven't because, well, I'm waiting for a sim to come. But that'll come in two days and then I'll be out of my dad's control. Because he's still, like, my sim's connected to a family sim. But once I've got my new sim, then that's that. And I can just send him money I owe still being blocked because I have his bank details. And then my mum, I can simply just block now.
[27:44] Right, okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah, I mean, I'm just a little alarmed when you said, like, I have to send that message, and I have to do this, and I have to do that, and I don't think you do. I mean, if you want to send the message, great. If you don't want to send the message to me, that would be fine, too.
[28:04] I don't think you owe much to people who have been that negative in your life.
[28:12] No, you're right. And yeah, like I said, I was surviving a hell hole every day as a kid. Like before I'd go to bed, I'd literally, like they'd always come in my room right when I was asleep and check on me. So every day I felt like I was some surviving prey. My life was a literal terrifying nightmare.
[28:35] I'm sorry, why was it, I'm not disagreeing you again, of course, but why was Was it so scary when they would come into your room?
[28:41] I don't know. I just remember this terrifying feeling of them checking on me when I'm like, so I have to fake being asleep and I'm just terrified of them. I don't know. It just scared me. They'd always come in and check on me every night.
[28:57] And until what age?
[29:00] I think this was up until early teenage years. I'm not too sure what age it stopped.
[29:06] Right. Now, I mean, I've heard some pretty terrible things over the course of my conversations with people over the last, I guess, close to 20 years. My parents checking on me is not the scariest. And I, again, I just want to make sure I understand where you're coming from in terms of why it was alarming. And again, I'm not disagreeing with any of your instincts. I just want to make sure that I understand things from your perspective.
[29:31] Yeah. Yeah. Don't know why it was alarming.
[29:38] Well, more than alarming, you said it was terrifying.
[29:42] Like, I'd just be scared every night when they'd open the door and check on me and I'd be faking being asleep. I'm guessing because if they knew I was awake, it wouldn't be a good thing. I honestly have virtually no memories.
[29:59] So if you were awake, they would be upset at you for being awake, is that right? angry angry at you for being awake okay yeah.
[30:07] My dad had raging anger issues.
[30:09] Right okay okay uh so i i think i understand okay i just wanted to make sure that i was uh on board with that okay all right so is there anything else that you want to talk about with regards to your parents and what happened last weekend yeah.
[30:28] So again part of me still feels like Like, I want to say peace out forever now. But my mum so manipulated when I confronted her. Like, she would be like, oh, I'm sorry. I don't have memories. I don't remember this, but I'm sorry if that happened. Maybe I did this because of this. And then she would just be like, oh, I was probably just in such an unhappy marriage. And I'm sorry you felt that way. And like, what can I do to make a relationship right? Right. And then the next day she would be angry at me and bitter at me, as always. So it's all fake manipulative apologies. And you actually said like all the lines she said at the end of real time relationships. You literally got her points spot on all her arguments. It's like you were speaking for her.
[31:22] Yeah, defensives are just like NPC programming. It's pretty easy to figure out what people are going to say.
[31:29] Exactly. And so it's all gaslighting manipulation, which is what's stopping me. But I don't want her in my life. I want to say peace out forever, but I haven't yet.
[31:44] And what's wrong with that?
[31:47] Because she's still there.
[31:50] Do you think there's a way? Tell me what you mean by still there.
[31:53] In my head, it's like a rope cut tied. Even though I'm far away from them physically, there's an elastic band that can go from Antarctica to the other one. I don't know what it's called.
[32:07] Arctic, yeah, yeah.
[32:10] And I want it cut.
[32:13] You want it cut. So what does that mean?
[32:15] I want nothing to do with her. to like i i just want the fact that i will never speak to her again to happen because i know in a few months i'll have to speak to her again so it doesn't feel over well.
[32:32] Again this is back to my first question why do you have to speak to her again i.
[32:38] Don't but i feel obligation i i just want to say goodbye forever Okay.
[32:47] But saying goodbye forever is in your mind. It is not in a conversation. Necessarily. Sorry, go ahead.
[33:02] Okay, I could simply just block them and never unblock. But I don't like that idea.
[33:11] Why don't you like that idea?
[33:13] Because they might email me or try to get a contact of me to quote-unquote see if I am okay.
[33:21] And?
[33:24] I don't want them to try getting contact. I'd rather say goodbye forever. I will be safe. So they don't use that excuse.
[33:32] Okay, but are they going to respect your decision? Or if you say, I don't want to talk again ever, However, are they going to escalate and be intrusive?
[33:49] I mean, they might escalate and be intrusive, but they will know I've not died in a car crash or something. Whereas if I just blocked them and be like, oh my gosh, what has happened? She just blocked us without saying goodbye.
[34:03] Well, but if, I'm sorry to interrupt, but if you blocked them, it's unlikely that you died in a car crash. I mean, if people are dying in a car crash, what they don't generally do is block people on their phone.
[34:18] They might not know i blocked them.
[34:22] Uh yeah i don't know how that works technically on.
[34:26] Whatsapp for example you can't see if someone's blocked you like the messages will still send it could just look like they never read it.
[34:34] Right okay okay so listen i mean philosophically speaking the the technicalities of whether you You get contact or whether they know you've blocked them, and that's not a philosophical topic. That's a sort of technical issue with regards to how you're going to manage it. But here's what I don't want, and here's where I think your thinking may be a little bit on the wishful side, which we all have, right? But it's something like this. So your parents are in your head. Well, yeah, that's called being a human being, right? I mean, I haven't talked to my mom in a quarter century. She's still in my head. now i mean now she's helpful right because my mom my inner mother was developed to protect me from danger and so my inner mom is pretty good at protecting me from danger in fact it was my inner mother who said stop doing politics right so i've you know i wouldn't say i've tamed her but i've enlisted her in in as a helpful aspect of my personality so she's still in my head and And you can't undo that. It's like saying, I'm going to live like I never learned English. But you can't do that, right?
[35:50] Yeah.
[35:52] And it is, in a sense, a wish for self-erasure to say, I need to get my mother out of my head. Because she is a part of who you are. And your inner mother is not your enemy. Your inner mother is your friend. Now, your external mother sounds like pretty horrible. But your inner mother, she's not your enemy. She's there to help you. And so saying, well, I want to get rid of my mother in my head is getting rid of self-protection. Because this is tied into how do you choose good men. So your inner mother is there, was there, and is there to protect you from danger. So you have, I assume, an inner father as well that makes you anxious when people get aggressive, right?
[36:42] When people get... I'm not sure, actually.
[36:46] Well, you must, because otherwise... I don't see a question mark.
[36:49] Hang on, hang on, hang on. Please, I mean, just let me finish my thoughts. You must have an inner father who makes you anxious when people get aggressive, because otherwise you wouldn't be the slave, as you refer to. You wouldn't have taken computer science because some guy told you to. You wouldn't have obeyed the narcissist that we talked about last time. Right, so when people get aggressive or assertive or tell you what to do, you must have, I assume it's an inner father, could be inner father and mother, who says, well, you better obey or you're in danger.
[37:29] Ah, I see. So the inner father would be obey, because I would obey to my real father, and if I didn't obey, that would lead to punishment and escalation.
[37:40] And danger. Yeah, great danger. So you have an inner father who's there to protect you, from dangerous people who have power over you. Right, so if a guy in prison gets beaten up by a guard every time he looks the guard in the eyes, he's going to lower his eyes, right?
[38:08] Yeah.
[38:10] And so you have an inner father who tells you, you better obey people, otherwise you're in grave danger. And that's the slave part that you were talking about, if that makes sense.
[38:23] Yeah, that makes complete sense.
[38:26] Now, your inner father may feel like a bully, but your inner father says, hey man, or hey lady, I know how to manage aggressive people. You comply and you're safe. You better not look that guard in the eye or he's going to F you up, right? Right.
[38:54] So your inner father is not an aggressor against you. He is a protector of you in that he has internalized your father's trigger points and warns you ahead of time what will make your father angry so you don't do it and thus get aggressed against or abandoned or neglected or whatever horrible things happened like when these skills evolved, right? Like, all of our evolutionary psychological mechanisms evolved during a time of massive infant mortality and literal child murder. Infanticide, child murder to the gods, to the ancestors or whatever. There was not enough food, so you really had to be a favorite. You could not piss off your parents without risking real death throughout most of our evolution. That's where all of these mechanisms of survival came into us. So when you're faced with particularly male aggression, your inner father kicks in and says, comply or die.
[40:16] And throughout almost all of your throughout almost all of her evolution your inner father was totally right, so he's there to help you your inner mother is there to help you, and this is tied into how to choose better men but I want to make sure this part makes sense When you say, like, I've got to tear up my inner mother and I don't want her to have any influence over me, or I want to not have her in my head, I'm like, oh, no, no, no. You really want your inner mother and your inner father in your head.
[40:54] To clarify, when I say inner mother, I don't mean inner mother. I mean her on my mind. Real mother on my mind, in my head.
[41:04] No, there is no real mother in your mind. She can't get into your head physically, right? No.
[41:12] No.
[41:13] So this is your thoughts. So are you saying that you have repetitive thoughts about your mother that you want to get rid of?
[41:24] More so just the looming fact that I've not cut contact yet out of, oh, is this a bad choice?
[41:34] Well, okay. So is your belief that if you cut contact, you won't think about your mother as much?
[41:43] Um no my belief is that if i cut contact they're gone for good what.
[41:49] Do you mean by gone though from where from your mind.
[41:55] But I won't need to talk to them again.
[41:59] Okay, but we're talking about different things here. Are we talking about talking to your parents, or are we talking about your inner parents? Are we talking about the choice you have to make?
[42:11] I think what you said about inner parents is really true. I never actually thought about that regarding my inner father before. I hadn't thought about that, but I was more so speaking about them being out of my life. and by stopping by cutting contact forever they would be out of my life.
[42:30] Okay i just feel like we're going in circles here and i'm not sure why because it seems like the definition keeps changing because you keep talking about your thoughts my concern is that if you think that if you block your parents you you don't talk to them again that they won't show up in your mind as much or Or, you know, it's almost like I'm tortured by my parents, but as soon as I do this thing, all that torture will be gone, or it'll be closed, or there'll be peace afterwards. But that's not, I don't think that's how it works. Now, if you're just talking about, well, I don't physically talk to them, okay, well, that's not a philosophical topic, right? I mean, if you block them and they can't get in contact with you, then yeah, I mean, but that's not a philosophical topic, right? That's just a technical thing about blocking people, if that makes sense. So let me ask you this. Have you ever known people who get divorced and continue to complain about their ex?
[43:36] Often.
[43:37] Right. That's very common, isn't it?
[43:40] Yeah, really common.
[43:41] Now, even if they haven't talked to their ex in years, even if they have separated, and the legal separation, the marriage is all done, the divorce is done, they're still talking about that person, right?
[43:53] Yeah.
[43:54] Right. So them, cutting all contact, having no ties to them at all anymore, they still can't stop talking about it or get it out of their head.
[44:06] Mm-hmm.
[44:07] Does that make sense?
[44:09] Yes. So even if I do block them, they're still going to be there.
[44:14] Well, the question is, how do you harness your injuries rather than try to get away from them? Because you can't get away from your injuries, but how do you use them to protect yourself?
[44:34] I see. Okay.
[44:42] So, I think what's going on with you and the boys, the guys, is probably, and this is, you know, to some degree out of RTR, right? So, managing dysfunctional parents was the only control you had as a child.
[45:04] Yeah.
[45:05] So, you couldn't control, and the example you gave of bedtime now makes more sense to me. So you couldn't control whether your parents came in at night. You couldn't control whether they might be upset if you were still awake. You couldn't control any of that, right?
[45:23] Mm-hmm.
[45:24] You couldn't control whether your dad would yell. You couldn't control his mood. But you could control whether you pretended to be asleep.
[45:35] Mm-hmm.
[45:37] So you can't control them. you can only control yourself. You can't make them be reasonable, but you can pretend to be asleep. Does that make sense?
[45:48] Yeah. Right.
[45:52] Now, what that means is that your only sense of control is managing crazy people. Now, we all like to have a sense of control, don't we? Nobody likes to feel out of control or helpless. Yes. But if the only sense of control that you have is managing, let's just talk about the male side. If the only sense of control that you have is managing dysfunctional men, then if there aren't dysfunctional men around, you're out of control.
[46:26] Maybe that's why I feel out of control. I see.
[46:34] So, go on.
[46:36] That makes sense because um ever since the move-in even like at times when there's no guy around i'm just point blank confused like after the new guy we were speaking about there was actually another guy on fdr i was speaking to i don't think he was a terrible person but he had a lot of issues He needed to work one still, and eventually I got disgusted. That was for a couple of months. But it's like guy to guy to guy to guy to guy.
[47:13] And they're dysfunctional.
[47:16] Yes. Right.
[47:17] So managing dysfunctional people, managing dysfunctional men, is your sense of control. It's sort of like if you've ever done a walk where it's crazy windy and you end up leaning like 30 degrees into the wind. See, I can say 30 degrees because you did math, right? So you're leaning forward like 30 degrees into the wind. And if for some reason the wind stops, you just fall over, right? So you have control, dysfunctional men, manage dysfunctional men, that's your job. That's the only thing that you had power over. You can't have control over dysfunctional people because they don't control themselves.
[48:08] Can I say another thing you might have forgot? My dad, I talked about it in my first call-in, but I'm guessing you forgot. So I was showered by my mom until the age of 11, and then my dad would impose crazy rules upon me, like, oh, I'm not able to decide if I have a bath or not on my health when I'm 16, but he would enforce crazy, tyrannical rules on me.
[48:35] Right.
[48:36] He was a tyrant.
[48:37] So you couldn't control any of the rules or inflicting them, but you could try to manage in some other way. Avoid the topic, say I showered at school or at the gym, like just find some way to manage the situation because you can't manage the person.
[49:02] I would, I would fight back. I would like shout and fight and fight and like, I wouldn't give up. I would spend ages fighting back, defending myself and protesting for freedom.
[49:20] Because the one thing, and that is disgusting behavior, and the one thing that you have said is about a couple of these guys is you're disgusted.
[49:32] Yeah, I felt disgusted feeling after doing stuff.
[49:36] Right. Right.
[49:38] And just like, oh, I spoke to them. Not I spoke to them, but just of the stuff we did and how codependent I got. I was an infant with some of them, not with some, only with a couple of them. So two guys, I ended up being the narcissist and then the FDR guy. The two FDR guys, one was from March to, let's say, May. And one was from the year and a half when I was younger. I ended up becoming more depressed binge eating getting into bed basically fattening myself up so I'd be ugly to them and being depressed in bed so I'd be ugly to them and then my ex and then the new guy I was still going to the gym so I guess with the new guy I wasn't like I was still going to the gym and living life normally but they were less intelligent they weren't part of they weren't dumb they were still smart they were um but they weren't part of FDR so they weren't deeply intelligent and curious and poetry and all. So with the two FDR guys, I ended up coming in bed like a kid again. And with the non-FDR guys, I ended up, I was living normally.
[50:55] Okay. So, have you met a guy where there's been romantic interest on either of your part, who you would not consider gross or disgusting?
[51:09] Recently. recently um but i have told him i don't think it's right for me to date for a few months he's also part of the fdr community but he lives 10 minutes away sorry.
[51:20] And this is somebody we haven't talked about yet right.
[51:23] No i we started speaking recently okay got it and um i stopped because i I keep interrupting.
[51:37] No, no, go ahead. Tell me more. No, you know what? He's not in the convo, so maybe let's not drag him in. But, okay, so the guys before were kind of gross or disgusting, and this new guy is not.
[51:54] Yeah, I guess my ex wasn't gross. um yeah my ex wasn't gross the network guy yeah okay, but just kind of under.
[52:10] Stimulating or undeep right.
[52:12] Yeah and i guess a new guy well there's a lot of guys oh my gosh this is so bad huh okay um, I have to number them now.
[52:28] You have to what? Oh, number them. Right, right. But, you know, we're not going in exponential, so that's good.
[52:37] And at least I've only had sex with one person.
[52:39] Right, right.
[52:41] Okay. I feel embarrassed.
[52:47] You don't have to say if it's embarrassing. I mean, that's totally fine if you don't want to talk about it.
[52:53] It's okay. I should because I should but I felt disgusted about the FDR guy I spoke to for two months and then I felt disgusted from new guy the guy from let's say September to March, but not about my ex okay.
[53:16] Got it, okay.
[53:28] Sorry, I'm just collecting my thoughts for a moment. So, the question is, your inner father can protect you from... Disgusting guys, or guys that, you know, are creepy, or weird, or negative, or not appropriate, or whatever, not compatible, could be any number of things, right? But here's the problem, every inner alter ego wants a job. Because they've evolved for a particular reason or purpose. So every internal alter ego wants a job. so you have an inner father who's designed to protect you from aggressive guys but the only thing he knows how to do is to comply so the only way he gets his to keep his job is if you have, aggressive guys around in fact he will try to summon aggression in guys by you being dithery and flaky and helpless to try and summon aggressive guys or aggression in guys so that he has a job you.
[54:50] Know oh can i interrupt.
[54:52] Yeah or.
[54:52] Not um so at the start for calling i was like debating being like to you i feel like you're gonna attack me instantly and like give me like a bunch of like oh and like i'm gonna get called out into oblivion so.
[55:05] He came.
[55:05] Out immediately at the start of his school and as well and it's like i was just expecting attack attack attack from you.
[55:10] Right right and and you did say like i'm really really nervous which you know is honest and i appreciate and understand that but you know i think in general i'm pretty nice and helpful in these calls so i don't usually rip into people so your inner dad needs aggressive guys around in order to keep his job.
[55:34] So it's kind of like if you have a security guard that's there to protect your warehouse, you've got some warehouse, right? Now, does the company that hires out security guards, do they work really, really hard to make sure there aren't any criminals around? They're selling you protection from criminals. So do they work really hard to reduce the number of criminals in the world?
[56:10] I don't know. Like, some just stand around. Yeah, they work to make sure they're not around.
[56:16] No, not the individual guards. The company that hires out the guards.
[56:20] Yeah, they work to make sure there's no criminals around and they focus their business on that.
[56:24] No, they don't work to make sure there are no criminals around. They make sure there are criminals around so that you have to hire their security guards to protect your property.
[56:33] How does that work?
[56:36] Well, if I am selling protection from criminals, if there aren't any criminals, I have nothing to sell.
[56:49] Uh-huh.
[56:49] Make sense?
[56:51] Yeah, that makes sense.
[56:52] So if i'm selling a cure for a disease i don't want that disease completely eliminated, because that's my business is selling the cure for the disease right i mean this is why you know have governments taught all the bomb in the brain stuff and had really great parenting classes so that we end up with much fewer criminals in the world well no because the government is selling you protection from criminals and so if the criminal population gets reduced by 90 or 95 percent, the government can't frighten you with criminals into complying and paying your taxes, right? In the same way, nobody buys, insurance against smallpox anymore because smallpox has been eliminated. So the people who are selling you treatments for smallpox are not the people, who work to eliminate smallpox. Nobody works very hard to eliminate their entire industry. Does that make sense?
[57:50] Yeah.
[57:51] Okay. So what that means is that, Your inner father needs the aggressive guys around in order to have his job, to get paid, in a sense, to have authority, to have a need for him.
[58:14] Yeah.
[58:16] So that means that you will tend to be drawn towards aggressive guys, or you might be drawn to guys who have absolutely zero aggression, which means they're passive. Like the recent guy with the funny face, right?
[58:38] Yeah.
[58:39] So like, okay, he's safe because he has no aggression at all, right? yep now a man with no aggression though i'm sorry to say is unappealing very unappealing right because you need somebody who's going to go out there and wrestle and fight and win resources and bring home the food and right compete with other men and right you need a guy, with a little bit of vinegar as well as the sugar right, So, you either end up with a guy who tells you what to do, and your inner father knows how to deal with that and manage that, and he's really needed, right? Or you are kind of with a guy who has no assertiveness or aggression, but then you're not attracted to him. So you have to keep moving.
[59:43] Yes.
[59:44] So it's the Aristotelian mean, right? Aggression in men, and in women too, but just in terms of men, aggression needs to be in the middle. You need to have the capacity for aggression, but you also need to have good control over your aggression. Because women want men who are aggressive when facing outside the home, but gentle when inside the home, right? Does that make sense?
[1:00:17] Oh, yes, that makes sense.
[1:00:19] Okay.
[1:00:19] I was just conscious of interrupting and speaking too much. Well, if there's a pause.
[1:00:23] You're not interrupting, I mean, by definition, right?
[1:00:26] Yeah.
[1:00:27] Interrupting is when I'm trying to say something and you're talking over me. If I've paused, you can speak. So, this is, I mean, you see what I mean? This is like the middle ground, right? So, you're either talking over me or not saying anything. Like, that's not a middle ground. It's not a middle ground kind of thing, if that makes sense.
[1:00:44] Yeah, it makes sense.
[1:00:45] And I say that with great affection, and it's just an interesting thing, right? Well, and that's part of the compliance, right? Which is, you were talking over me, which, you know, was fine for a little while, but then we sort of pointed it out, and I asked for that not to happen too much. And then you're like, meekly curl into a ball and don't say anything. Yeah. Yeah.
[1:01:05] Right. Can I?
[1:01:10] Yeah, go ahead.
[1:01:12] Can I add another guy into the equation?
[1:01:15] All right, I'm going to need to open up a spreadsheet here, but go ahead. Actually, maybe a database. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. Go on.
[1:01:28] I don't know why I'm laughing at this. Okay.
[1:01:32] Let's find out together. Laughing at SiriEyed.
[1:01:34] Yeah. Guy number one million. Okay. So, so, so, so. A month ago, someone from FDR messaged me. And it turns out he's living, he was living 10 minutes away from where I'm moving. and so we met up um the day after I moved and sorry I touched my mic by mistake and so we met the day I moved and the entire time it's like what I talked about at the start of the call in I felt so nervous like I know I felt so nervous and I didn't know what a normal happy secure friendship or relationships like I didn't know how to be it's also new and foreign and so um i don't trust him yet i'm still worried but he's done nothing to prove me that he's a virtuous guy he's very um i won't go into details i'm conscious of time but um he's done nothing to show he's a virtuous guy and but my brain like the time we met i was just like oh my gosh i'm so boring i have nothing to say and then i faked facial expressions which i mentioned at the end And he could tell that my tone of voice would be different to my facial expressions. I just didn't know how to have a good time with him. I was so sort of ambivalent.
[1:03:00] I'm sorry, how are you supposed to have a good time with someone while going through a brutal separation from your family?
[1:03:07] Yeah, I know. I did express I may not be happy and stuff. I did express that. And he had complete sympathy and said he just wanted me to show up with whatever feelings I have.
[1:03:19] Mm-hmm.
[1:03:21] I was still trying to fake things but yeah I just wasn't happy I don't know what it's like to sit and live normally like nothing's ever just okay and I can relax I don't know what a happy relationship just interaction looks like I felt so nervous like what if I'm so boring and have nothing of a human possible land of words to say and this goes very deep-rooted because in school I had no friends for a time and I was hiding in the toilets and I'll be like oh my gosh what do I say and it's just this anxiety that haunts me like all of them boring and i was just like and then the other thing would be how can i know if i can trust him how can i know if he's a good guy how can i know he's not a creep or an aggressive guy or meat guy how do i know how can i know if i can trust him because he seems virtuous but i don't know truly i have no idea no clue in the slightest. How am I meant to know if he's virtuous?
[1:04:23] I'm sorry, is that not a rhetorical question, right?
[1:04:28] It's not a rhetorical question.
[1:04:36] Well, how do you know if someone is virtuous? What would the most philosophical answer you could give be?
[1:04:45] Actions.
[1:04:46] Well, okay, but that's not action. The word action doesn't explain very much, right?
[1:04:51] Okay, so you would hear their moral values, and you would see that they stick and oblige to it every single day. Not every single day, but you know what I mean. they stick and oblige to it so they're honest integrity courage and they apply it and if they don't and you bring it up they like oh yeah you're right that doesn't feel like an answer though it feels like no that's that's.
[1:05:20] So i mean how you know if someone is virtuous virtuous, is they have rational morality and they follow it.
[1:05:32] Yes.
[1:05:36] Now, oh, he's going to dislike me, but that's all right. That's all right. Now, how pretty are you? Just remind me again.
[1:05:46] I don't know.
[1:05:48] Oh, yes, every woman knows. Come on, let's not have some idea.
[1:05:52] The thing is, I was an ugly duckling.
[1:05:55] Yes, was.
[1:05:56] I would say I'm like six or seven. So I'm like, I'm pretty.
[1:06:05] Boy, that was quite a yodel. Pretty. I don't know.
[1:06:13] I have a tiny bit more weight to lose. I go to the gym so I'm bulky and chubby at the same time right now. But let's say I lost I'm pretty.
[1:06:23] Okay.
[1:06:24] But not attractive, attractive. Like, it's probably my personality that gets...
[1:06:31] Sorry, go ahead.
[1:06:33] It's like my brain's probably more attractive to me than my looks. Guys wouldn't just come and ask me out.
[1:06:42] Right. Okay. Got it. So, we'll call this guy Jake. Right? The new guy, right?
[1:06:53] New guy, Jake.
[1:06:54] New guy, Jake. All right. Now, you're going through quite a bit of chaos at the moment, right?
[1:07:02] A lot.
[1:07:03] Right. A lot of chaos at the moment.
[1:07:08] So, if you were an elderly gentleman, would Jake be your friend?
[1:07:24] He's a young guy. Well, do young guys be friends with an elderly gentleman?
[1:07:28] Well, if it's just personality and quality of character, an elderly gentleman I hope so. Hang on.
[1:07:33] I hope so.
[1:07:35] Did you just try that again, right? So, if you're saying it's my personality, right, then elderly gentlemen can have wonderful personalities, right? They can be very wise and helpful and thoughtful and transfer great knowledge and wisdom, business experience, like any number of things, right? or even if we don't want to say elderly, if you were a guy right i assume that jake's not gay right so if you were a guy would jake be working to defend you.
[1:08:13] Um i don't know because right now i felt awkward in social interactions but i do think i have i would be a good friend but.
[1:08:23] I but right now Now, you're going through a lot of chaos, right?
[1:08:26] So I'm like not super great in social interactions.
[1:08:30] Well, listen, and this is not anything negative towards you, but when you're going through a lot of turmoil and chaos, you and me and everybody else on the planet tends to be kind of needy, right?
[1:08:44] Mm-hmm.
[1:08:46] And so you can't reciprocate too much in terms of friendship at the moment, right?
[1:08:54] Maybe that's why I notice I've been struggling asking people questions about themselves.
[1:09:02] You're going through one of the biggest and most wrenching changes a person can go through. And again, for which you have my enormous and deepest sympathies. And this just happened last weekend. Right?
[1:09:20] Yeah. Yeah, but I guess it felt like, it doesn't feel like it because they were dead to me from like when I was 16, from before. They've always been dead to me.
[1:09:33] Yeah.
[1:09:34] I've always hated them.
[1:09:35] I get that. I get that. But you emailed me saying this happened last weekend.
[1:09:41] Yeah, last Sunday. Okay. Exactly a week ago. I just arrived.
[1:09:45] So it's one thing to have it kind of abstract and feelings-based and still be in contact. It's another thing to move continents, right?
[1:09:57] Oh, it wasn't continents, but yeah, I moved like 5,000. Okay, but moving a lot.
[1:10:00] Right? You're not up the road. You're not three blocks over. You're a long way away.
[1:10:05] Right? Definitely not far away.
[1:10:10] So it's hard for you to be reciprocal at the moment because you need a lot of resources, a lot of TLC, a lot of focus, a lot of attention, or time on your own to process and so on, right? But it can't be a particularly equal exchange of attention because you're going through this massive wrenching change.
[1:10:37] That makes sense. I agree. I have been sort of thinking things along the line of that or had an incline.
[1:10:44] Yeah, I'll sort of give you an example from my own life. So when my wife and I had our daughter, my whole life changed. It's never been the same. Parenting is forever. There's the before and then there's the after. And when you actually have to keep a tiny person alive, which is not You know, I mean, they're not rabbits, they don't just grow on their own, right? So you really have to work hard to, not just in terms of health and food, but, you know, interaction and, you know, dealing with a couple of leftover demons from my own childhood and so on. now when I was going through that change, you know my friends would be calling up and back then and saying oh yeah you know I'm having this I'm having a bit of difficulty at work and blah blah blah right now you know to be honest I didn't really care.
[1:11:45] Because what was going on in my life was so big and such a big change not just because I mean not just because of the, my daughter but because i'm doing this whole peaceful parenting thing i've got to plan all that out and so on right so i'm engaged in this massive project and this huge change and people would be like talking about you know relatively little things compared to all of that and we just wouldn't have that much in common or you know when i was undergoing a lot of media attacks and stuff Stuff like that. And, you know, people would say, I don't know, I'm having a bit of trouble with my girlfriend. And it would just be like, you know, I just, sorry, I'm going through so much turmoil. I can't really be there for you. If that makes sense.
[1:12:32] Mm-hmm.
[1:12:35] And it's quite a common thing when people have kids that they drift away from the people who don't have kids because your life is just too different. so you're going through a huge amount of turmoil, which I sympathize with and it would seem to me that you couldn't quite get really focused on somebody else's life at the moment, if that makes sense so, so let's go back to, you met this guy for the first time right uh you didn't really know him before right.
[1:13:25] Um we had called a few times and talked about like dreams and just talked about who we are and i also expressed that like we both expressed that like obviously guy and girl speaking that would be romantic guys and girls can't really be friends if they're both single obviously but that i'm not ready to date for a few months because i need to you know do the work on myself process my trauma and be able to not choose a bad guy so.
[1:13:50] Is he romantically interested in you.
[1:13:53] I'm sure that's the only reason he's speaking to me have.
[1:13:57] You talked about that.
[1:14:01] Um i guess like i brought up like i'm like the second convo to do with me like when i'm peeled wanting to like would you want to you know do anything and he said he would ask when it's the right time okay.
[1:14:17] So in general i would assume that he finds you attractive now listen there's absolutely.
[1:14:23] Nothing wrong.
[1:14:24] With that of course it's why.
[1:14:25] We're all here.
[1:14:26] Right so this isn't this isn't anything sinister or negative at all but he is you know probably around for the possibility of dating.
[1:14:35] Yeah but is for exactly what it is okay.
[1:14:39] All right all right so that's and you know the way, the way that you can figure that out is not too too complicated you just imagine in your this is true for everyone right so if he's not around for dating then if you meet a guy Bye. and you start to really fall for this guy, there's a lot of chemistry or whatever, right? Then you should have no problem telling Jake about this guy.
[1:15:08] Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. He's definitely around for dating. I've known that from the get-go.
[1:15:13] Okay. Got it. All right. But he knows, of course, or respects that you're not in a position to date.
[1:15:19] Yeah, respects it and agrees, and he said he would only ask if it's right.
[1:15:26] Interesting. Okay. Okay, and so you said a couple of months.
[1:15:30] I said a few months, but I said it could be more, it could be less when I'm ready.
[1:15:35] I wonder if this has any driving or motivating factor to tell your parents you're not going to talk to them again sooner rather than later.
[1:15:52] Hmm. Interesting.
[1:15:53] If he's in a bit more of a hurry, and you know, guys, if he had the choice, he'd rather date you sooner than later if you were up to it, right?
[1:16:01] Yeah.
[1:16:02] So maybe some of the urgency and maybe some of the confusion that we had earlier is because he wants this band-aid off so he can make his move.
[1:16:14] Yeah. Like, sort of like, oh gosh, I need to do the work quickly.
[1:16:19] To comply. fly he has needs he has a preference i gotta move this along and i'm not saying they're coming from him right and this is nothing negative towards him felt.
[1:16:34] It's never felt rushed or anything yet.
[1:16:37] Then do you have it could be your desire as well like i want to get this dealt with because he's a great guy i want to explore the possibilities it may be coming more from you but there was something odd about what we were talking about earlier and maybe it has something to do with this i think.
[1:16:53] You're onto something maybe.
[1:16:54] Yeah maybe this need for speed thing is is kicking in because if he's a great guy too you know maybe he'll find someone too.
[1:17:03] Picture right picture books like not picture books like by by like what you'd hear sounds almost perfect.
[1:17:10] Right so maybe he's a great guy yeah maybe he's a great guy and and And maybe he'll get snapped up in six months or over the next six months. Okay.
[1:17:21] Exactly.
[1:17:23] Okay.
[1:17:23] He has like everything to do back easily.
[1:17:26] Okay. So then that makes a bit more sense why we were going back and forth over the parental stuff. Because there's a kind of jetpack strapped to this thing that I didn't know about, if that makes sense. Okay. I got it. I got it. That makes sense. I always like it when things make sense. That's sort of the job, right? So I appreciate that. Okay. Okay, so how do you know if he's a good guy? Pardon? Sorry, I think we kind of came and went for a second there.
[1:18:00] You said, so how do I know if he's a good guy?
[1:18:03] Yeah, so how do you know if he's a good guy?
[1:18:08] I am a lost lamb.
[1:18:10] There you are, bringing that helplessness to the table, so I get assertive, right?
[1:18:15] Yeah.
[1:18:16] Yeah, yeah. Good, good. I got it. We'll just speak in buying from now. buying all bad fortune okay so, your focus on him being a good or bad guy is a control issue, it's being a coach and seeing if he can make the team What the heck? We just keep getting these noises. Can you hear anything? Or is it just me?
[1:18:54] Tess, Tess.
[1:18:54] Yeah, I can hear you.
[1:18:55] Hello?
[1:18:56] Yeah, can you hear me?
[1:18:58] I didn't hear a thing you said.
[1:19:00] You did hear or didn't?
[1:19:03] Did not.
[1:19:04] You did not, okay.
[1:19:05] I messaged saying I lost you.
[1:19:07] Okay, just let me know if we're still cooking.
[1:19:12] You're back.
[1:19:12] Okay.
[1:19:13] You're back.
[1:19:14] So... You wanting to know if he's a good or bad guy is like you're the coach and he is trying to make the team. Or you're the job interviewer and you're trying to see if you want to hire someone. It's a position of authority. It's a position of judgment, if that makes sense.
[1:19:43] Mm-hmm.
[1:19:46] So, what you do, and you're also, you are taking the position that he is potentially extremely dangerous and toxic, and you need to evaluate him very carefully and very closely before moving forward with anything, right?
[1:20:06] I am wary.
[1:20:08] Yes, wary, that's right. That's right. I don't particularly... Oh, gosh, I don't know what's going on with this.
[1:20:22] Hello.
[1:20:23] All right, let's try that again. Let's try that again. All right. So, if you distance yourself from this guy and evaluate him critically, you're treating him as a threat. Or a potential threat, right?
[1:20:42] So if i don't evaluate him i'm treating him as a friend.
[1:20:47] No if you if you are evaluating him are you a good guy are you a good guy then you are treating him as a potential threat is that fair to say yes i am okay yeah now that is to say are you like my father, which is letting the lens of your father dictate your interactions with this man. Now, saying, are you a creepy, nasty person is not particularly complimentary to somebody who is a good guy, right?
[1:21:30] No, it's not.
[1:21:34] And it's also relinquishing control to your inner father to do all of this cold-eyed evaluation, which means that you're going to be a little distant, a little skittish, and a little unavailable, and also because you don't know exactly how to judge. It's going to be hard to know when that process ends, right?
[1:21:57] Yes, spot on. I felt disconnected, like skeptical, couldn't really just relax.
[1:22:02] All right. Would you like the solution? He asked rhetorically.
[1:22:06] Oh, yes. I'm so, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
[1:22:09] So here's the solution. I'm going to give you an analogy, right? Right. So if you want to know if someone is a good runner, right, let's say you're a very good runner and you want to know if someone's a good runner, you have basically two choices. One, you can stand around with a stopwatch and time them and test them and see how fast they run.
[1:22:39] Right.
[1:22:40] That's one option. The other option is you can run like hell and see if they can keep up. So you want to evaluate him from the sidelines and see if he's good or bad or right. But you're not running. So he doesn't get to evaluate you. Because all you're doing is judging him from the sidelines. So, in other words, if you're the coach and you're timing someone's running, does the person you're timing know whether you, the coach, are a good runner or not?
[1:23:20] No, you can't.
[1:23:21] No, you don't.
[1:23:22] You can't be swale again.
[1:23:23] That's right. However, you're looking to join this person in a virtuous relationship. But if you're judging them and evaluating them, they can't judge you. Sorry?
[1:23:40] You want together.
[1:23:40] Right so what is i mean that's very abstract and you sort of understand it but what does that mean in practice what that means in practice is you focus on being as honest direct and virtuous in this budding relationship and see if he keeps up.
[1:23:59] Ah. I see. Okay. I think I've been doing that a little bit. I can give an example.
[1:24:11] Sure.
[1:24:12] I noticed when I was saying goodbye to him, I gave a fake smile and I was super fake enthusiastic. I'm very good at being fake enthusiastic because of my jobs, like my previous one and my current one. So I'm amazing at being fake.
[1:24:27] I know, man. I don't even know if you're enjoying this conversation or not. No, I'm just kidding. Sorry, go ahead.
[1:24:32] But, no, no, no, no, no. I cried in like a couple of minutes. I laughed and I rarely, rarely laugh. Like, you don't get it. I laugh once every millennia. This is probably the first time I've genuinely laughed in like 52 years. And I'm not 52.
[1:24:49] Well, you are an ancient soul. Okay, an ancient bitter soul. Okay, got it. All right. So, you gave him some fake enthusiasm at the end of the meeting.
[1:24:58] Him like the next day or however long after i was like hey i noticed when i said goodbye i um i would put on a fake smile on a fake this and i noticed and he pointed out also like oh how my tone of face was different during whilst we were speaking he mentioned this like my face was different to my tone of voice but i'd bring up that right okay so i think that's an example of me being honest. Like I told him, I fake to smile, fake to enthusiasm.
[1:25:28] I think that is a good approach. The next stage, of course, is when you have the urge for a fake smile, what do you say?
[1:25:38] I feel like I sort of need to fake smile right now because you're smiling. So I sort of like need to join in almost. Right.
[1:25:49] So, and if you have an urge to comply, you would say?
[1:25:54] I feel like I need to agree with you here or not question you more. That brings me up on something I want to actually ask that I've not pressed on more.
[1:26:06] Sorry, was that a real question that you wanted to ask, or was that part of the...
[1:26:09] No, rhetorical to myself, sort of. Right.
[1:26:12] So, and the other thing that you would add is, I feel the urge to comply with you, which is unfair, because you're not asking for compliance.
[1:26:25] Mm-hmm.
[1:26:27] I feel the urge to give you a fake smile, although you've really only asked for authenticity. does that make sense like then because it's one thing to say i feel the urge to comply with you, but you also need to not just be honest but just and fair which is to say i feel the urge to comply with you which is not coming from you right it's history it's you know habit but it's not coming because you're not asking me to comply.
[1:27:04] Definitely, it's to do not at all his fault.
[1:27:07] Right. So rather than saying, how do I judge if he's a good guy? I think the question is, how can I be as honest and virtuous as possible? And then if he's a bad guy, how is he going to react to you being honest and direct and curious?
[1:27:29] Ah, so the more virtuous I am, the more good guys.
[1:27:38] See, the problem with judging someone's morality is that you may very well attract insecure masochists who like to be judged negatively.
[1:27:53] Can you stop this? Ah, so the problem with going and judging them and being on the sidelines is that some people like negative judgment and being judged.
[1:28:04] Yeah, some people like it because maybe somebody grows up with a hypercritical mother and then you're like, well, I'm going to need to judge you. And they're like, oh, I know this one well. Oh, I can work with this. Oh, yeah, this is totally familiar to me.
[1:28:15] So it's like two buds. So codependency again and an unhealthy relationship like an RTR for two people.
[1:28:25] Right, right, right. Right, so everything that you do that is not aimed at virtue will almost always end up in dysfunction.
[1:28:39] Because the other thing, too, is that if you're putting yourself in a situation where you judge the other person, you're putting yourself in a situation of hierarchy of power. Now, a good guy will also want to judge you, but he's going to be being virtuous. And he's going to say, can you keep up? Now, because you know what a relay race is, right? So a relationship is like a relay race. Both people have to run. and so if you say I'm the coach you're saying I'm not the runner now the runner is being judged by the coach and it's one way right the runner is not judging the coach is running the coach is judging like people always used to say this in American Idol right like they'd sing not too well and, Simon Cowell would say you sang badly and they'd say sometimes well you try coming up here and singing it's like no that's not his job his job is to evaluate not to sing right, So if you go and judge guys, then you're putting yourself in a superior or hierarchical or power position relative to them.
[1:29:49] And confident guys, assertive guys, won't particularly like that because they'll say, well, if all you're doing is judging my running, but we're supposed to be running in a team, when do I get to evaluate your running? When do you stop being the coach and run with me? and we see how fast we can go together.
[1:30:18] Yes, that is completely making sense and I'm like still sort of on the sidelines assessing.
[1:30:26] Right, right.
[1:30:28] Ward, how would it feel to just run the race together?
[1:30:34] That's And now, if you start to run and he flakes out or trips you up or, you know, whatever analogies you could make, he takes out a cigarette and starts smoking and blowing smoke in your face. Well, then you know, right?
[1:30:51] I'll leap a race.
[1:30:52] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then you'd be like, okay, I need to look for another runner because you're not running with me, right? So, yeah, don't be a coach because a coach is a hierarchical thing. And it is not giving you an accurate evaluation of how you run together any more than the coach standing by the track with a stopwatch is not learning how to run with his runner. He's just judging the runner.
[1:31:22] And it gives you so much, this gives me so much more free will rather than feeling powerless because it's down to my choices rather than his. It gives so much more free will.
[1:31:34] And it means you don't have to put your own pursuit of virtue on hold while you're evaluating because your pursuit of virtue and the evaluation go hand in hand. You running and you judging the other runner and allowing him to judge you goes hand in hand.
[1:31:49] It's beautiful. Responsibility is beautiful. i love it because it means i can change more.
[1:31:54] Right and and having a relationship which is not founded on hierarchy because a confident guy is going to like to just be judged he's also going to want to judge himself he's going to want to see how you run and if you're just holding back then he'll be like well she's kind of cold and distant and then he's going to be judging you and that's a real shame just run together and see how it goes.
[1:32:16] Thank you Stef.
[1:32:18] That's i'm here to be amazing that's the idea you.
[1:32:21] Have thank you you are you're not here to attack me today.
[1:32:25] No not today boy if you catch me tomorrow tomorrow but today is the one day where i'm just not attacking people yeah so good luck no.
[1:32:33] I do i do have a couple more sore questions but i think they leave context.
[1:32:39] Sure unless.
[1:32:41] You have things more things to say.
[1:32:42] Because i'm finding this incredibly helpful yeah go for it um.
[1:32:46] Okay so i think it all links so it's um, So the lack of happiness, not lack of happiness, anger, but I think that goes towards channeling inner parents. And then there's the incredibly low self-esteem, the incredibly low self-esteem, like when I hang out with him, like, oh my gosh, I'm going to have nothing to say, an incredibly low self-esteem about who I am. I just moved out and I am in my early 20s and I've moved all the way, so far away and And I've got myself a good job. And I have relatively good people in my life. So I think I'm quite well off for my age. I even dropped out of school. I didn't go to uni because, screw debt. I have money in Bitcoin. I'm open and I love criticism. I'm curious. I love nature. I go to the gym. So I think I'm fairly well off for my age. But I have.
[1:33:42] So it's this weird parallel. allow part of me is incredibly damn prideful and confident like oh my god i've come so far this is amazing compared to the kid that was hiding in the toilets and that was living the most miserable life i've come beyond leaps when there's the other half that just when i'm out in public is like feels like that 12 year old again that had no friends and wanted to fit in but all the people would run away from me so there's these two parts of me the incredibly low self-esteem like i felt today when I was out everyone was it was such a nice day everyone was all out with people and they all look great because I'm a tiny bit chubby I'm not like a whale I'm just a little bit chubby and bulky um I felt so damn insecure and like oh I can never be happy until I'm like skinny or oh I'm just incredibly low self-esteem and so yeah there's these two parts the prideful part over everything I've gone through and been through, and I think I've gone down leaps, but then the insecure, really fricking low self-esteem part.
[1:34:48] Right.
[1:34:50] Like, oh, I have nothing to say to Jay.
[1:34:52] Would you like to resolve those two?
[1:34:56] Mm-hmm.
[1:34:57] Right. And it is the big question of how do we judge ourselves? And there's really only two things we can do. We can judge ourselves by objective standards, or we can judge ourselves by the opinions of others. So when you judge yourself by the opinions of others, you feel small.
[1:35:27] Yeah.
[1:35:29] Because that's what you said. The people would walk away from me. I didn't have any friends. Of course, your parents looked down on you and so on. So when you see yourself through the eyes of others who are not great people, then you feel small, right? But when you compare yourself to objective standards, you feel strong and powerful and worthy of respect, right?
[1:35:54] Very much. But then there's the bad guys, which sort of debunk all of that, I feel like. Like, yeah, I've done these things, but I keep going for bad guys.
[1:36:05] Okay. But I think we've talked about why you went for the bad guys.
[1:36:11] Yes, in a far... Yes, we have.
[1:36:13] Okay, so you're dealing with it, you're talking about it, you're working through it, right? So that doesn't...
[1:36:19] I'm open and I love criticism. Right. So it doesn't debunk it. I love being called out. Right.
[1:36:25] Right, so, and of course here the thing is, you're able to resolve your problem with dating bad boys or bad guys because you are comparing dating bad guys to an objective standard called dating good guys. So, you're able to identify and work on the problem at a very young age, early 20s, because you are comparing what you're doing to an objective standard called dating good guys.
[1:36:58] What do you mean?
[1:37:00] I'm slightly Well, you're saying that dating bad guys is bad and dating good guys is good, right?
[1:37:07] Yes.
[1:37:07] So you're able to fix this problem because you're comparing what you're doing to an objective standard called dating good guys is better. So even this process is part of how you have generally done such wonderful things with your young life. Because you're saying, I'd rather date good guys than bad guys. I've got an objective standard. I need to figure that out. I need to solve this. You know, I'll do some self-work. I'll talk to Stef. I'll think about it. Because the bad guys are happy to have you date them, so if you only judged who you date by what other people want, you just keep dating bad guys. But you're saying, no, no, no, there's a better standard, there's an objective standard called date good guys, I'm going to work to conform to that. So that's progress, right?
[1:37:56] Yes.
[1:37:57] So that's what I mean. When you judge yourself according to objective standards, then you realize where you're deficient, as we all are, and you work to close that gap, and that's where genuine pride comes from. But if you judge yourself by the opinions of others... then you lose your power because you have no protection. Objective standards are a protection against the sour opinions of losers. I mean, there's lots of people who think I'm a bad guy or a terrible guy or whatever, right? It's like, but I have to look at objective standards. Am I pursuing truth, reason, evidence? Am I doing good in the world and am I acting with integrity and so on? so my protection against like i mean there was a guy on the live stream today uh who was you know attacking me and sort of putting me down and if i judge myself by other people's opinions then i yeah i wouldn't i don't know i would get would i get out of bed i don't know but it would be pretty tough i'm sure there's.
[1:39:00] No as in like i bet you there's people that call you hitler and all these horrible things.
[1:39:03] I think you're.
[1:39:04] The worst guy in the world when like you literally care care about the most innocent, vulnerable people in the world. Right.
[1:39:11] Right. So I don't judge myself according to the opinions of others unless I trust them. In other words, unless they're virtuous themselves. So the question now, we all see ourselves through the eyes of others from time to time, and that's not a bad thing. It's like reciprocal empathy, right? So we want to sort of feel what other people, but we also want to feel what other people feel about us. And that's, if they love us, that's good. If they're malevolent towards us, we need to know that too, so we can avoid them or fight them if we need to, right? So, if you view yourself through the eyes of bad people, then you have no control over your life or your feelings or your emotions or your progress. Now, if you judge yourself according to objective standards, then you have control over your life and your self-image because you can work to close your gaps towards pursuing that better standard and so on. So the two sides of you are judging yourself according to objective standards, wherein you feel powerful and good, or judging yourself according to the manipulative belittlements of petty people. Or belittling from petty people.
[1:40:35] I mean, if I were to judge myself according to how my mother or father judged me, I would not be doing very well in this world at all.
[1:40:47] And one of the great things about toxic family members is they train you out of taking other people's opinions seriously pretty quickly, or you just don't make it.
[1:41:02] They train you out of...
[1:41:04] Yeah, they train you out of taking other people's opinions seriously. Like when my mother said, oh, I hate you or whatever, does that mean I'm hateful? No. It means she's really messed up. So, I mean, and if I can put my... It's funny, you know, it's part of the superpower of child abuse, particularly verbal abuse. The part of the superpower is, look, I mean, yeah, people say bad things about me. It's like, my own mother said she hated me. If I can flourish from that, why on earth would I take what strangers say seriously when I had to reject the perspective of my own mother as a child?
[1:41:47] You get this incredible immune system.
[1:41:49] You get this incredible capacity for self-direction. You know, there's this old meme, you think you can hurt me? And, you know, I've already done X, Y, and Z. Like, oh, you think being mean to me verbally is going to take me down? It's like I survived and flourished my own mother's hatred of me. What is some stranger on the internet typing going to do after you've conquered that?
[1:42:13] For sure. For sure.
[1:42:21] So if you focus on how you're doing relative to objective standards, virtue, integrity, honesty, directness, self-protection, if you measure yourself relative to objective standards, you have control over your own self-image. If you judge yourself based upon the petty judgments of petty people, you can't form a stable self-image because you've given people too much control.
[1:42:47] This is giving me more free will now.
[1:42:50] Yes. yes love it and of course if and we all do like i mean if we're raised this way so it's a natural habit but if we judge ourself according to the petty opinions of petty people we invite, power mad megalomaniacs into our life because they like having that kind of power right, so i think that would that's the way i think a way to resolve now we do have to care about what other people think of us. Because, you know, if there's some mob chasing us through the forest with pitchforks, that's important, right? So you have to be aware of the dangers of petty people's petty opinions of you. You have to be aware of that and learn how to navigate the world full of, you know, dangerous, unthinking, aggressive people. But that's judging a danger. That's not defining yourself, right? So I recognize that there is danger in other people's negative judgments of me, but I don't judge myself according to that danger. I recognize that there are lions that might want to eat me if I'm walking in the jungle. There are lions that might want to eat me, but that doesn't mean I'm a bad person. That's just a danger I need to be aware of, if that makes sense. Just because the lions judge me as food doesn't mean that I judge myself as food. I just recognize that they judge me as food and there's danger in that.
[1:44:16] Sorry if those abstractions got one too many layers away from practicality, but I hope that makes sense.
[1:44:27] No, no, no, it makes sense. You understand that it means nothing, but you understand that it's dangerous, so you won't. I can't explain it, but I understand what you mean, I'm pretty sure.
[1:44:39] It's a danger you need to be aware of, but you don't define yourself by it.
[1:44:46] Yeah.
[1:44:50] All right. One more? One more? You had one more? Or we're done?
[1:44:54] Do I have one more? So low self-esteem you did. Being, how to be insecure. Well, how do I know? I guess then that other thing. Yeah, that other thing of sitting, living normally. Being, like being able to just sit down every day without some pressure on me. And then being, what does a secure, happy relationship look like? Like, how do I not feel awkward and feel weird speaking to a person normally? What's a normal conversation like?
[1:45:30] Well, I don't know. I mean, I'd be the last person to come to for a, quote, normal conversation. I mean, for heaven's sakes, people listen to me for the most abnormal conversations Conversations in the known universe. Okay.
[1:45:44] What do the most abnormal best conversations look like? What does a secure relationship look like?
[1:45:49] Right. So...
[1:45:51] How do I...
[1:45:52] I think it's just that relentless honesty. If you feel awkward, say, I feel awkward. If you feel like you don't know what to say next, say, I feel like I don't know what to say next. You know, just that real-time relationship is just relentless honesty. We always have thoughts. The awkwardness comes from being afraid to share them.
[1:46:13] Yeah because my brain's like oh i don't know what to say so i'll say it and it's like oh well if i spend three hours just be like hey i feel like i don't know what to say hey i feel like i don't know what to say and repeat that for three hours well.
[1:46:24] No but because the other person is going to.
[1:46:26] Have their thoughts as.
[1:46:27] Well and you you of course got very used to self-censorship because words when you were growing up could be dangerous right they could trigger your father they could.
[1:46:35] Trigger your.
[1:46:35] Mother they could trigger an attack they could you're screaming or yelling or whatever whatever, right? So hitting. So you had to self-censor because you were surrounded by dangerous people. And so it's natural that there would be awkwardness when you're around safe people.
[1:46:55] Because that's not a language that's totally familiar to you or even particularly familiar to you. You're just learning that language, right? So yeah, when I'm learning to speak a foreign language, it's kind of awkward, right? And you're learning to speak safely when and you're fluent in danger. Sorry, go ahead.
[1:47:11] Yeah, so that might be why I feel awkward, so awkward around Jake. But it's also like, he's like an opportunity, like, oh my gosh, virtuous man, 10 minutes a day, has applied philosophy, like 10 minutes, like, you know, it's like, how do I don't want to be, you know?
[1:47:27] Right, so I understand that because you had a negative attachment, it sounds like, with your parents, that you had to be the opposite of who you were in order to be able to pretend to get along with them. And now you're trying to reverse that whole process and try to get along with someone by being authentically and honest yourself, which would have resulted in an attack from your parents. So you're, you know, reversing at great speed. And that's awkward. You know, if you ever had to back up a car at high speed, it's pretty awkward driving, right?
[1:47:57] Exactly. But I could go a thousand miles an hour.
[1:48:06] Right, right. Right. So did we get to close to the bottom of your list?
[1:48:10] I think that was the last thing. Yeah.
[1:48:13] Good, good. Well, listen, that's quite a meal we've got going on here. So I think we'll give you and...
[1:48:19] This has been wonderful.
[1:48:20] Good, good. Well, I'm obviously very glad. And again, I'm sorry to hear about what's happening with your family of origin. But I mean, I'm not going to disagree with any of your choices at all. I mean, it does not sound like a particularly healthy situation at all. Yeah. And, you know, I do wish my best to Jake, and I hope you'll keep me posted about how things are going.
[1:48:42] Yeah, and also, like, yes, so, like, even though I've only confronted them literally, like, once or twice recently, like, and in total only a few times, I don't even need to confront them before defooing, right? Right. Like, even if they were to somewhat change, which I'm sure they won't change and it's all manipulations, like even if my mom were to somewhat change, like she can't undo the past and all the evils when I pleaded and pleaded for so many years. So it doesn't even matter if she does something to try change. Right. Like, I can still cut her off.
[1:49:19] I mean, I personally wouldn't be holding my breath for a radical rewiring of your parents' brains to occur. her and to me.
[1:49:26] Right it might be.
[1:49:26] Like waiting for them to change height or or hair color or hair.
[1:49:29] Color exactly i agree like she's even in therapy for her own stuff right or whatever and it's like i doubt it's doing anything she feels like as long as lost as a soul when i confronted her do you want to know what she cried about in the conversation i've been in an unhappy marriage not me confronting her about the abuse it's when she started talking about herself in her marriage weird but yeah thank you Stefan this has been so wonderful you're very welcome and i hope you sorry.
[1:49:57] Go ahead i.
[1:49:58] Feel like like do you think i'm an okay person do you think um i feel like i need to ask for approval no.
[1:50:06] That's fine listen uh not only do i think you're okay i honestly think you're magnificent i mean what.
[1:50:12] Really yeah.
[1:50:13] What you've had to struggle and survive what you've You've been able to achieve your level of self-awareness, the quicksilver brilliance of your mind, your commitment to integrity, your focus on virtue and honesty, your willingness for feedback, your eagerness for it even, your good humor, good nature.
[1:50:29] You are a wonderful, wonderful person, and I hope that you will carry that forever. And the medal that I would give you for what you've survived and flourished under would be big enough to fit around the rings of Saturn. So, yes, I think you should be entirely proud and certain of that.
[1:50:47] Thank you. I'm teary-eyed.
[1:50:49] You're welcome. Keep me posted, all right?
[1:50:50] Thanks for the great convo. I will.
[1:50:52] Bye.
[1:50:53] Bye, Stefan. Have a good day.
[1:50:54] You too.
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