0:29 - Inside My Brain Crisis
1:59 - Origin Story
25:01 - Living Arrangements
26:20 - Reckoning with Laughter
31:40 - Reckless Youth
53:18 - Troubled Relationships
58:58 - Failed Business Ventures
1:01:11 - Enabling Behavior
1:03:44 - The Impact of Addiction
1:05:32 - Lack of Protection and Responsibility
1:12:36 - Suggested Interventions and Family Dynamics
1:25:00 - Attempted Involvement and Emotional Impact
1:30:15 - The Question of Inaction
1:30:39 - Dealing with Ruminations and Guilt
1:35:50 - Discovery of Daughter's Drug Use
1:39:34 - Functional Dysfunction in Running a Business
1:44:54 - Consequences of Enabling Addiction
1:51:16 - Uncovering the Deep-rooted Issues
1:55:41 - Inaction in Protecting Children
1:58:59 - Collusion in Family Secrets
2:02:32 - Confronting Lack of Action
2:04:20 - Transmission of Family Patterns
2:04:40 - Building a Future of Accountability
In this episode, I had a profound conversation with a caller who bravely shared personal anecdotes about their upbringing, familial dynamics, and past relationships. As the caller reflected on past experiences, I guided them through introspection, urging them to address the moral and emotional aspects of their journey. We delved into the challenges they faced in protecting themselves and making healthier choices, especially during times of substance use and partying habits.
The caller narrated a transformative moment in their life when they met their current husband, who steered them away from self-destructive patterns. We explored their family dynamics, particularly focusing on the caller's sister's struggles with substance abuse and lack of ambition despite their historical closeness. Their story of resilience in navigating past mistakes and family issues highlighted the importance of self-awareness and growth.
As the conversation deepened, the caller shared a harrowing account of their sister's battle with addiction and toxic relationships, which spiraled out of control due to negligent parenting and lack of support. I expressed outrage at the parents' failures and stressed the necessity of legal and professional interventions for their sister's well-being. Together, we discussed the complexities of enabling behaviors and the critical need for seeking help in addiction cases to break destructive cycles.
Reflecting on the caller's 25-year struggle with intervening in their sister's addiction, I raised questions about the family's collective responsibility and emphasized the importance of seeking outside assistance. We dissected the repercussions of inaction on children's well-being, underlining the urgency of addressing addiction promptly. The conversation illuminated the complexities of addiction within families, urging accountability and proactive interventions for healthier outcomes.
In conclusion, we navigated through the intricacies of family dynamics, confronting enabling behaviors, and prioritizing honesty and accountability for personal growth. I emphasized the significance of taking timely actions and heeding one's conscience to prevent further turmoil within families. Encouraging the caller to focus on the future, we underscored the steps needed to foster a healthier familial environment and break the cycle of dysfunction.
[0:00] Hey, Stefan.
[0:00] Hey, how's it going?
[0:01] Hey, I can't believe I'm speaking. This is so crazy. Thank you for taking my call.
[0:06] You're welcome. It is time to believe it. It must be believed. It is happening. It is real.
[0:12] Yes.
[0:13] I am not coming from the simulation.
[0:17] Can we, I just need a background fan so I can hear you better. Okay. Did you just ask me a question? I'm sorry.
[0:26] No, no. I'm all ears. let me know how I can best.
[0:30] Help dig in so I've been listening to your show for oh like I don't know at least three years before the pandemic started so like back in your YouTube days and yep listening to your show I was getting tons of advice um super awesome to have that resource, um I think I first sought you out because I was kind of having my own little inside my brain inside of my head crisis i keep ruminating um over family members i just don't want to think about anymore it's ridiculous it's like stop living in my head kind of a deal like why do i keep thinking about these people every time they do something something crazy happens or some kind of it just feels like a lot of things are very unfair unfair situations so i know No rumination from what I like gather is kind of like you just you're trying to solve a problem or something. And that's why people ruminate for the most part. I don't know. I just was calling to see if you could give some advice on how to like just stop intruding thought in their tracks so you can just like clear your mind.
[1:38] Did you post on this on local? So did you say you did? So you're the one whose mom is an enabler and complains about it.
[1:48] Yeah. Uh, and it's, I don't know how far back I know. I know how you roll with these, with these phone calls. So I know like, if you don't let me know if you need me to go back or something, but.
[2:00] Oh, absolutely. Let's let's, uh, I don't, I don't like walking into the movie halfway through. So give me, give me the start. Give me the origin story.
[2:07] Yeah. Hmm. I don't really know how far, like I should really go back, back, but yeah, my mom.
[2:14] Yes, you do. Because you've listened to a bunch of call shows, you know exactly how far back. Okay. So you first had a heartbeat and then it attached to your belly.
[2:22] Yeah okay so i'll just take it back um why not so my mom yeah she's she's quite the the personality i think she's a good person deep down inside i don't think she's bad she does very good things it's kind of like she does very nice things and then she also has a bit of i don't know my brother brother thinks it's like she likes to kind of keep everything in control a lot she's oh he analyzed it yeah why why are we starting.
[2:56] With a narrative that is designed to program me rather than say i don't know.
[3:00] The facts okay got it okay okay so all right so anyway so kid growing up But definitely my mom, you know, always has a very orderly household. She always liked to keep things very in order. She's of German origin, just like your mother. So, you know, I feel like that's kind of maybe a little bit of a culture thing, you know, with her. So she was very much like that to the point of sometimes it would be a little bit too much sometimes. Sometimes, I remember when I was younger, I actually, I remember this one time I just stopped talking to her. I just went silent, didn't want to talk to her. And I was like, I don't know, six, seven or eight, something like that. I was a young kid and we didn't talk for a few days. And then finally, she was like, this is ridiculous. You need to speak to me. And I forget exactly what made me do that. But I think it was maybe a little bit of just this constant, everything just has to be in this certain way she was very very focused on keeping things orderly and neat and things like that we would always joke about her we're like this is clean but this is her kind of clean you know um but yeah my dad um met her when he was in the military um and then you had you.
[4:23] Had a A German mother and a military father?
[4:26] Yeah.
[4:28] Wow. Talk about anal Olympics. Anyway, go on.
[4:32] Yeah. So he, well, my dad got sent to the military because my grandfather sent him because he was not, you know, behaving correctly. So he made him kind of join the military. That was not my dad's choice, but it was my grandfather's ultimatum as far as from what family members tell me. My dad was kind of a bad kid, but not really. I think it was more...
[5:01] He has an interesting backstory. He was born with severe dyslexia, where he could not, and my father is a very intelligent person. He learned German when he was in Germany, and he was speaking it and everything. thing and you know um but he was born dyslexic severe dyslexia could not read anything eventually taught himself how to read this is before of course schools had um you know different programs to help children you know get through usually it was just like you know you just have to kind of wing it you can either do it or you don't kind of thing they didn't really have very many programs back in the 50s when he was in elementary school and things so um some of the things from what what family tells me is that, um, he kind of fell into like a bad crowd sometimes because he was with the other kids that were kind of a little bit behind in school. His reason for being behind in school was more of his dyslexia, but otherwise he was, he was really a smart guy. Otherwise, like he knew very, a lot of things. I mean, he constructed his own home. He, you know, very good with like building things and constructing them and designing. So, um, you know, But interestingly enough, he met my mom in Germany.
[6:16] At his wedding, which is also really crazy. So they have a really crazy how they met story. My mom was previously married, but she was in a rather abusive relationship at the time, more verbally abusive, not so much physical, but more verbally abusive. She got married very young. She had my brother when she was 18. She grew up fatherless. Her dad um left her mother um so uh she spent most of i think he left when she was around eight years old or something like that um so she spent most of her life without having a father but a rather well-connected family unit her mom you know provided for her and she had other family connections there it was very closely knit um you can imagine in germany how you know people People live, you know, they have like those apartment type situations and you have like your whole family kind of living like all around you. So she still had, you know, things like that. And she has two brothers, one older, one younger. So, yeah, so that's kind of like in a nutshell what my parents, both of their histories as children.
[7:26] You've got to be really optimistic to think I'm not going to ask about the Met at the Wedding story.
[7:32] Yeah. So I'll give you what I can. I always knew it was like a story that they had. Of course, I wasn't there when it happened. So, but it is. Yeah. So they met and I guess apparently my dad was going to get married to another germinate or something. But I think he kind of got like wrapped up in something that he didn't really want to get wrapped up in. And he maybe just really wasn't really, really into this lady. I don't exactly know exactly how he met her. um but at the time he was not 100 speaking everything in german and things like that so um, But so it was probably like maybe like a, you know, 50% with him as he was learning and things like that. Um, but I, I don't know, they, they met, my mom was invited to their, to their wedding, um, uh, from a friend of a friend. She, she somehow got there, you know, and, uh, she was still, yeah, I believe like she was probably still married. Um, but again, her marriage was kind of, you know going downhill i think the guy that she married was um maybe like almost 10 years older than her so she was 18 when she had my brother um the guy was like in his late 20s or something you know so he was substantially older sorry she was 18 when.
[8:57] She had your.
[8:57] Brother yeah when well she met him when she was like 14 i think like that she met my I was not her first husband. She met her first husband at 14. So my mom has been in two main relationships with men. She was very sorry.
[9:13] Do you know whether she had sexual activity with him when she was that young or did that happen later?
[9:17] She probably did. She probably did. And that's probably what led to her, you know, having my brother at such a young age. So, you know, he was born when she was about 18.
[9:29] So, OK, so her mother is like terrible. Thank you.
[9:34] Yeah, I mean, no dad.
[9:36] Right? So, but her mother would be terrible to allow a guy in his mid-twenties to prey on a 14-year-old.
[9:45] Yeah, I don't know how much she knew about my mom's relationship.
[9:50] No, it's her job to know.
[9:52] I know, I know.
[9:53] There's no excuse called, I didn't know.
[9:56] Yeah, I know, I know.
[9:58] I forgot armed robbery was illegal. No, no, kind of your job to know.
[10:03] Yeah well that's yeah it's it's i guess because well she didn't have a dad at home you know so no i guess i think that's why i talked about her mom yeah yeah yeah i don't know yeah it happened so long ago my my daughter my daughter's 15 yeah my daughter's like we we would never think of i mean i i have two children of my own as well and it's just it's just crazy things that, happened i was like no this i could never you know lat i mean i had two boys so i don't have some guy.
[10:37] In his mid-20s starts creeping around my daughter i'm like hey you know we should go hunting.
[10:42] Yeah yeah definitely definitely yeah but that was their upbringing i guess you know so she sorry what does that mean their upbringing yeah well i guess that i was that was her i mean her backstory from what I'm saying, you know, I'm sure there's, there could be more things.
[11:02] She was groomed and probably statutorily raped as a teenager.
[11:09] I think, I think that's what it would be officially called, you know? Yeah.
[11:13] And she was unprotected. And this was all about as terrible as things could be.
[11:22] Yeah.
[11:22] Okay. Got it.
[11:24] Yeah. So, um, yeah, so I feel like we're kind of scaling over the.
[11:32] Moral issues here. Like, okay, mom was groomed by an older man and statutorily raped most likely, but yeah, moving on. And it's like, is that really moving on kind of thing?
[11:45] Yeah, I understand. I mean, we can, we can continue to, I guess, unpack that. Um, no, no, I'm just.
[11:53] I mean, is this, is this, this can't be news to you, right? Maybe you've dealt with it a million times before and it's lost its.
[11:59] Yeah i mean yeah well you know like i mean i i know i mean she she told me you know things about her backstory especially when i became a teenager um you know she always made it like you know let me know if you know you're ever in a relationship or you ever you know find yourself getting intimate with someone you know And she was kind of always adamant about that, maybe because she was a teen mom. And I remember when I was a teenager, she would always tell me that. So interestingly enough, when I was in high school, my first boyfriend happened to be four years older than me, which he was already out of high school when I was in high school. And we were together the entire time I was in high school. And then I was, I think I met him when I was about 15 or so, and he was already in his early 20s.
[12:57] So did you tell your mother?
[13:00] Yeah, she met him and he even, he was always over. She liked him a lot. Yeah, well, she likes him, you know, as, as my boyfriend and stuff like that. She was fine.
[13:11] You liked him. You're 15.
[13:13] Yeah. Yeah.
[13:15] Jesus God.
[13:17] Yeah, when thinking back at it, I'm like, oh, my God, Mom.
[13:21] And she also knew how bad it was because of her own experiences.
[13:26] Yeah. Yeah. So another thing, well, I know.
[13:30] We're really blowing past all the emotions here.
[13:34] Yeah. Well, this is, I think, where all the Mitch feelings come from sometimes. Like, she can have good points and bad points. Like, she's very two-sided because she'll be like, you know, don't do this and try to give advice. and then on the other hand enabling me and this is where the rumination will start to get okay so hang on so well so.
[13:55] You were 15 and this guy you said was four years older so he's 19.
[13:58] Yeah well he was about um in his early 20s this is like back when i was in high school so this is i mean i'm 43 now so you said hang.
[14:07] On this is simple math right so.
[14:10] You said.
[14:10] You were 15 and if he's in his early 20s then he's six or seven or eight years older than you.
[14:16] Yeah i definitely remember he's an adult and you're legally a child yeah yeah so.
[14:26] That's statutory rape isn't it.
[14:30] Yeah and legally that that's what it would be you know that's what it would be you know your mother knew exactly.
[14:39] How terrible this all was because she went through the same experience and she let it happen again.
[14:48] And she.
[14:49] Liked him and he's welcome.
[14:52] In the house.
[14:55] He's in his 20s you're 15.
[14:59] To be honest he was a little bit probably looking back in retrospect he seemed to be a little bit more immature for his age um so he kind of still kind of acted like a teenager which is pretty creepy um now in retrospect when you're a teenager you're not really thinking like that you're just like oh this person likes the same things that i like so were you chaperoned.
[15:22] When the boy was oh when the young man was over.
[15:25] Um well you were.
[15:28] Never left alone with him.
[15:30] Oh we were left alone oh yeah Yeah, yep, yep, I was allowed to go.
[15:35] So your mother served you up to this groomer.
[15:38] Yeah.
[15:39] Don't laugh, don't laugh.
[15:41] Yeah, I know, I know.
[15:46] I mean, she served you up to a guy seven plus years older.
[15:53] Yeah.
[15:54] And she left you alone to be violated. Yeah.
[15:59] Yeah, yeah. She probably, I mean, you know, she probably didn't see it like that.
[16:04] I don't know. She absolutely saw it like that because it absolutely happened to her. She would have direct experience of being groomed by an older man and subjected to sexual activity to which she cannot consent. And neither could you. That's the point of these laws. is you cannot consent at the age of 15 because your brain is still half a decade or more away from maturity.
[16:32] Yeah. That is true. That's the way I see it. That's definitely the way I see it.
[16:38] Okay, so your mother left you as a child with an older man to be violated sexually because you cannot consent at the age of 15. now again maybe there's some places where the laws are i don't know mexico some places is 12 i don't care about that i'm just talking about sort of morally i.
[16:58] Think generally from what i catch from different things like in europe maybe especially in her time um her generation like the age difference thing wasn't really a big deal you know.
[17:13] Oh so it worked out well for her Yeah.
[17:16] I mean, yeah, I understand.
[17:17] No, it didn't.
[17:18] Well, not a good idea.
[17:19] She ended up in a verbally abusive relationship that she fled. So it did not work out well for her.
[17:27] Yeah.
[17:29] I mean, what is a guy who's 23, what does he have in common with a 15-year-old girl? Yeah.
[17:37] It would be absolutely nothing. That's the way I see it in my mind today as a grown-up. Heck no. I would never, never, never, never. And neither would my husband. My husband would be like, oh, hell no. That's why, you know, my dad was also a little bit of an enabler too. And I can't put him out of the picture. You know, he's, I mean, maybe in that regard as well too. I mean, you know.
[18:01] Okay. So what's your dad is like?
[18:03] I know my husband right now.
[18:04] What, like cracking beers with this guy?
[18:08] Um yeah they my parents were pretty laid back and that's another thing too they were also no no no i will not.
[18:17] Accept the term laid back for.
[18:19] Yeah okay yeah i know i'm sugarcoating that's a bullshit hippie term yeah serving.
[18:26] Your kid up to a groomer yeah so why didn't your father protect you.
[18:34] Yeah he was busy busy bee worker he was always working on something um that's not i mean are you saying.
[18:43] This is an excuse is there.
[18:45] Some fucking project more important than keeping.
[18:48] Your child away from groomers.
[18:50] Yeah no definitely yeah definitely not definitely not no no no he definitely should have been on it like like i said in all this like when looking back i'm like Like, wow, the crazy stuff that, you know, parents did. It's not crazy.
[19:06] Yeah. You keep having these terms like laid back and crazy and, right? Nope.
[19:10] I know. I think I'm just trying to give myself some solace in my mind. Okay.
[19:15] But that's why you're ruminating.
[19:17] Yeah.
[19:18] There's a danger you keep ignoring and you keep minimizing and you keep making jokes and laughing about and creating inappropriate moral language for. So you keep. minimizing the danger, and that's why you keep ruminating.
[19:37] I mean, there's more to the, to the story. I can, I can pull forward a little bit here. Um, but we're going to still get probably to the same conclusion, but moving forward, as soon as I graduated from high school, I went to college. um i decided i want to go to college and at that time my my brain started to shift you know as they do when you start to close in on your early 20s and things like that you're gonna you know your brain's gonna evolve right um so the guy i was with uh no i was no longer attracted to him and i wanted i wanted to kind of just do my own thing go to college he was very upset with my my decision to you know move on you've been together.
[20:24] With him for like three or four years.
[20:26] Pretty much my whole high school time i was with him and then and were you attracted to him over.
[20:33] That time period.
[20:34] Yeah in high school it was like oh i have a boyfriend you know he was fun we did he's older.
[20:41] So maybe it's a bit of a status symbol.
[20:43] Yeah maybe it was you know who knows in the 90s things were a little more crazier in high schools um you know i had a number of girlfriends that also had boyfriends that were slightly older than them or five or six years older okay that's.
[20:59] That's not slightly older.
[21:00] Yeah it's not like that's no seriously like if 15 to.
[21:03] 20 is like 25 percent age difference.
[21:07] Yeah that's.
[21:08] The difference between like 50 and 75.
[21:13] Yeah.
[21:13] I guess it's a third, but yeah. So, so that's not, it's, that's not a bit of an age gap. That's the difference between a legal adult and a legal child.
[21:24] Yeah.
[21:25] A guy who can probably rent a car and a girl who can't drive.
[21:30] Exactly.
[21:31] Okay. All right. So go ahead.
[21:32] I, yeah, I, I get it. Um, yeah, so I, you know, in a very image where I can look back and be like, you know, The way I broke up with him was probably not the most eloquent way to break up with someone. I just kind of started dating another guy. I just jumped away from him. And like I said, I moved on to college. And I kind of just met more people. So naturally, I started talking to more people.
[22:00] I assume this guy was living this Peter Pan life of no progress in his 20s, right?
[22:05] Yeah. He was working at a gas station. he was you know he had no like major setup.
[22:12] No i get it so he's attracted to a child because he's half a child himself and then you outgrow him which is exactly why parents should not allow this kind of stuff to happen because it's inevitable right some guy who's in his 20s who's interested in a 15 year old is emotionally stunted and unable to progress in life otherwise he'd be dating people his own age and so this is i mean aside from the moral implications you keep these creeps away from your daughters because it can't possibly work out as it didn't with your mom and as it didn't with this.
[22:43] Yeah. So, I mean, I'm glad I'm putting my story out there for any listeners that are going to be listening to this and they may have teenagers at home and those teenagers, if they decide to get with someone much older than them. Yeah. Take heed, please. Because it is it. This is going to start to snowball here in a second. um so anyway my uh my so my mom so okay so my my ex my official ex then uh went to my mom very very upset he stopped paying his rent at his apartment he stopped going to work and my mom takes him in next thing i know my ex is living at home and um and i was commuting to school i I wasn't I wasn't living on campus. I was commuting to school. The school was about a 30 minute drive from my place to to the university I went to. And I commuted because it was substantially less money if you commute and not stay on campus or whatnot. So.
[23:47] But, yeah, so the next thing I know, my ex is living at home. I couldn't escape him. I was like, what the beep, mom? You know, like thinking in my mind, I didn't really give her too much pushback because in a way, I almost felt bad for him too, but then I was also not home a lot either because school and I was also working and also, of course, socializing with friends and my new boyfriend, you know, to be honest. So I kind of felt bad for him too. I was like, you know what? I was kind of beating ass for the way I broke up with him. Basically, I could consider I cheated on him, you know, but again.
[24:25] Yeah, but the guy is pushing 30 at this point, right?
[24:28] Yeah, exactly.
[24:30] So your mother took in your ex-boyfriend and had him live under the same roof as you while you were dating someone else. Honestly, this is about as corrupt and destructive a thing as I can imagine.
[24:45] No, no, don't laugh.
[24:47] Do not invite me into this comedy place.
[24:49] I know, it's not funny.
[24:50] It's not funny.
[24:52] I'm doing it, I guess, that reaction. I know a lot of callers had the same reaction I did to some things, yeah.
[25:02] And what did your father say about the guy who creeped on his daughter when she was 15 moving in when he's pushing 30 and his daughter has left him?
[25:12] Well, he let it happen, and my ex was living with them for some time. Are we doing the laughter thing again?
[25:20] I need you to take a deep breath and stop making this into a comedy. It's jarring as hell.
[25:25] I can be a little expressive sometimes.
[25:28] No, it's not expressive. You're trying to turn this horror show into a comedy.
[25:34] Yeah.
[25:35] It's appalling.
[25:37] I am. I'm going to try not to. So I'm going to try to like.
[25:40] So you have to, because it's a, it's a false toughness, right?
[25:43] It is like, Oh.
[25:44] It was so crazy. It was so funny. Can you believe this? It's a false toughness.
[25:49] I know. Yeah.
[25:50] This was horrible.
[25:52] Yeah, it is. And that's what my rumination. I think I think I do know that I'm laughing. I'm not laughing.
[25:58] So you got to just find a way to stop at this. And I'm sorry to be strict, right? But you got to stop at this helium giddiness of like, yeah, I'm over it. You know, like this weird. And I'm not saying you're weird. I'm just saying that this is a response that is so out of tune with and you're in your 40s. Right. So you've had time to process.
[26:20] process right and what this does though of course is it means that healthy people will probably shy away that's.
[26:29] That that is that is true that is true that.
[26:33] You're gonna end up surrounded by people to whom this kind of dissociation and manipulation and self-avoidance and i was natural yeah.
[26:42] And And I clearly was because my husband, um, yeah, he, his family life, I would say is not 100% ideal either. Uh, he was actually now characterizing.
[26:56] We've gone from laughter to your family. Life was not 100% ideal.
[27:01] Well, my, no, I was saying, um, my husband's, um, no, no, I will either.
[27:07] Which includes your family either.
[27:09] Either. Yeah. Yeah, I think, well, that's why I think we attracted each other. You know, we're both perfectly fine now. Me and my husband are both very responsible people. Yada, yada, yada.
[27:20] No, no, you're not. You're not perfectly fine because then you wouldn't be giggling about this horror show.
[27:26] Yeah, that's true.
[27:30] Knowing that you're calling me. Knowing that I call this stuff out all the time and still doing it.
[27:37] I know. Yeah.
[27:39] But that's a level of dissociation from the conversation.
[27:45] All right. Let me try to lock it in more.
[27:52] I mean, you understand I can't have the audience thinking there's anything funny about this.
[27:57] Oh, yeah, I do completely understand.
[27:59] But you're trying to do that. You're trying to program my audience to view this kind of neglect and abuse and failure of protection as comedy. Which I can't let you do, right? You understand that?
[28:12] I have to protect my.
[28:13] Audience a lot better than your father protected you.
[28:16] Yeah yep understood, and honestly that's why I wanted to call in, because I thought you know what the other callers you know they contribute to the whole community, and you know the world any listeners out there so I really like I love what you do and that's why I was like you know what let me throw my little whole story down um not just for my for myself i looked at it because you know sometimes i can get over the rumination sometimes i try to i have to i have to i have to fend for myself you know so, um i've always been very independent um it was my idea to go to college i remember my mom was like why are you gonna go to college there's no point blah blah i mean you got your first boyfriend.
[29:03] At 15 and then you layered on.
[29:04] Another guy.
[29:05] Closer to your.
[29:06] 20s yes where's the independence here parents that I had to parent myself.
[29:12] Not funny again. Where's the independence here? If you're going from guy to guy.
[29:18] Oh yeah. I, yeah, that, Yes, of course. That is definitely something to think about. I think, well, you know, honestly, when I was in my early 20s in college, I think it was just the social group and everybody, you know, it's just you date, you know, and you talk to people.
[29:41] Okay, so what happened to the guy in your 20s in college?
[29:44] College so he was more just like a party kind of boyfriend thing so i had a little party group basically we're all like kind of like i just formed a party group with another girl that i went to high school with and then she was basically a bunch of.
[30:00] Traumatized addicts right.
[30:02] Yeah you could call it that no no i don't.
[30:05] Want to be unfair but.
[30:07] You had a lot of trauma you could Yeah, we were out partying between going to class, and we were also out there partying.
[30:15] Okay, so that means drinking or doing drugs or both, right?
[30:18] Yeah, exactly. Like, nothing totally hardcore, but yeah, we would, you know, definitely, you know, never got into anything like major, you know, drugs or anything like that.
[30:29] You mean like weed and alcohol, the sort of typical?
[30:31] Yeah, weed and alcohol. Yeah, that was it.
[30:34] And how much would you drink in your height of partying?
[30:39] Um well uh no i never was a like a blackout i never drunk to blackout levels uh just enough to just have fun socialize you know a little boisterous rambunctiousness you know stuff like that okay so you're not answering the question you're not answering.
[30:59] The question it's fine if you don't want to.
[31:01] No it's okay maybe i just thought okay how much did you drink.
[31:05] So on an evening, you'd go out to partying, and how many drinks would you have on average?
[31:12] Hmm. Kind of be hard to say exactly, but I mean, we would be drinking.
[31:16] I said on average. Let's not waste time here.
[31:19] I don't know. Between all of us, I guess.
[31:21] No, just you.
[31:22] Something like that. I guess we could.
[31:24] Just you. You know. How many drinks a night would you have when you were at your height of partying?
[31:29] Maybe like, I don't know. It could be like four or five. Could be like, I'll just say, yeah, four or five sounds about right. right okay got.
[31:36] It and um a height height and weight back then maybe the same now but just back.
[31:41] Then yeah i'm almost just about the same i think like um i was maybe like 125 i'm about five foot six back then i was 125 i think i'm like 135 now whatever but okay so that's a lot.
[31:53] Of alcohol for.
[31:54] Yeah a.
[31:55] Fairly small young lady right.
[31:57] Yeah like um yeah and we were all doing that it was it's just ridiculous and stupid. And yeah, definitely. Um, I don't even know how, like why we are even alive still. So, but, um, yeah, definitely very stupid decisions. Um, alcohol.
[32:15] Did you, uh, did you also smoke drugs or take drugs at the same parties?
[32:20] Yeah, of course this is, you know, it was like the nineties, of course you were.
[32:24] No, no, I was around in the nineties. I was around in college earlier than that.
[32:30] Yeah so you.
[32:31] Can't blame the decade these are your choices.
[32:33] Well i think that you know okay so you'd have four.
[32:36] Or five drinks at 125 pounds and how much weed would you smoke.
[32:42] And we would you know of course the the blunts would be rolled so you know mainly you know it's like you take a cigar wrapper and you know um you fill it with weed or whatever and that's how we did you know for the the most part um and we would you know be like kind of like shared you know do you remember the question, Oh, you asked me how it was?
[33:07] No. How much would you smoke?
[33:11] Like I said, it's hard to really measure that out because it would just be like a blunt, which is kind of like, looks like a cigar type situation. And you share it, kind of like a joint, basically, but you share it with others. So, I mean, I guess it would just be maybe, I mean, one, really, because, I mean, that's, yeah, I would, like I said, slightly lightweight. wait so honestly like i didn't i i wouldn't it's not something you would just be smoking all night you know just be like all right i'm gonna smoke this and i'm gonna drink that and then i usually just knew when to like like this is my limit i very rarely ever you know threw up or blacked out because you know and i'm not like condoning any of this ridiculous behavior anyway but i generally really always kind of knew where i was at at all times um and i knew when to stop as well so um, yeah i was not like all kinds of sloppy with it um so yeah not anything yeah like i, yeah how many times a week would you like the stupidest thing plus sorry sorry and sorry and.
[34:18] How many times a week would you do this.
[34:21] Oh a week okay that's a good question um i'm gonna have to to say well definitely on the weekend and then maybe you know once in a while in the middle of the week as well so like friday night saturday night or yeah it could be friday it could be saturday like i said i was all i was working as well so i'll be working so you're.
[34:40] Working and in college is that right.
[34:42] Yeah working it was working part-time and college full-time um so i also had a side job though as well so it's not like you know it was just all these these empty hours of, you know, but you know, when we, when we did get together, maybe some days we got together after class, it all depends. Some days we got together on the weekend, you know, it just all that.
[35:04] So maybe a couple of times a week.
[35:07] Yeah, definitely. I'll definitely say, yeah, definitely a couple of times a week. Like I said, it's 20 years ago. So, but I'm going to say that, yeah, that's pretty much, that's, that's what we did. Yeah.
[35:15] And your boyfriend at the time was he your age?
[35:19] Um yeah yeah me and him were the same age and he was also.
[35:23] A drinker and a drug user.
[35:25] Of course yes okay.
[35:27] And how long did that relationship last.
[35:29] Um only a little bit of time uh that only lasted i think we were like maybe a year maybe a year and a half and then um i met my current husband that i have now to this day and he helped me change a lot he was not um he drank uh but he did not smoke weed um or anything like that i mean he would you know just social um things like that um so yeah my current husband is actually probably what made me change um i owe him a lot for that um so yeah and then we you know eventually um.
[36:12] Moved in together and um yeah everything we um we got we got married had our first child i was 24 when i had my first um best decision ever i was you know and everything was good um you know we worked our way up and we've been married now my oldest is now 20 years old we've been together other like 22 years um so yeah i would have to say yeah so after i broke it off with the party party guy um yeah it was we were basically only connected through partying uh the the guy i was with previous to my husband like otherwise we probably would never even it was just we only yeah it was just partying party but like sober we were hardly never sober around each other um So that didn't obviously could not last.
[37:11] And why do you think your husband had as his goal reforming the party girl?
[37:18] Um, well, not sure. I'm not sure about that one. But, um, you know, he has a little bit of a backstory, too. Um, if you want me to get into that, I can.
[37:34] No, that's okay. I mean, it's just that, you know, the I can fix her meme is quite.
[37:39] Yeah. Yeah. I guess I never really thought of it that way when I met him. I mean, I don't think he was like, well, he did kind of show me the way and what was right and wrong, which I did not have with my own parents. And I think he was like the first person that actually was like, no, that's wrong. Like, don't, don't do that. You know?
[38:00] So he kind of parented you.
[38:02] Yeah exactly i think it was he was like oh wow finally somebody that actually cares what the hell i'm doing you know um and so not that i was a complete mess i mean i decided to go to college and i got good grades and everything and you know i don't know i don't know what complete mess means.
[38:21] But you were a mess.
[38:21] Oh yes definitely 100 mess yeah disgusting so what did your husband.
[38:28] Think Or what does he, or did he think of your parents?
[38:33] He basically said the same thing you did. Where was your dad? What was going on there?
[38:41] Sorry, just again to try and control the laughter.
[38:44] Sorry. But yeah, basically the same perspective you have.
[38:50] Okay, so 22 years ago, your father started saying there's something seriously disturbed and wrong about your family. Okay.
[38:59] Um, my father?
[39:01] No, no, sorry, your husband.
[39:04] Um, yeah, when he first met my family.
[39:07] Well, no, when he first heard about your childhood, right?
[39:10] Oh, yeah, yeah.
[39:12] So, so, 22, well, no, so how long were you together before you got married?
[39:18] About roughly two years.
[39:20] Okay, so 24 years you've known your husband?
[39:25] Yeah.
[39:26] Okay, so almost a quarter century ago. Your husband said there's something seriously wrong with your family, and you were neglected and groomed. Or something like that.
[39:39] Yeah.
[39:40] Why is it still funny a quarter century later?
[39:44] It's not.
[39:46] No, no, but it is, because you're still trying that thing, right? And I'm not criticizing you. I'm genuinely curious, right?
[39:53] Yeah, I think. Well, like I mentioned, I think this kind of leads into my rumination problem.
[40:02] Oh, I get that. I mean, you listen to your husband about everything except your family.
[40:08] Yeah.
[40:09] So why?
[40:12] Maybe because I thought I can't change my family, but I can just change myself. You know? And just kind of move on.
[40:19] Does he like your family?
[40:22] He does. Yeah, he does.
[40:25] Oh, okay. Well, that's why. Okay. So he doesn't really have standards that way.
[40:29] Yeah, it's again, you know, maybe that's why he decided to stay with me because maybe anybody else would not, you know, maybe, maybe that's why.
[40:39] I don't know what you mean by that. Sorry.
[40:41] You know, because he still gets along with, you know, he got along with my father and my mother. My father had passed recently back in November, so he no longer exists. But he did get along with my dad. He did get along with my mom.
[40:58] Sorry your father passed i.
[41:00] Know what's that i'm sorry sorry.
[41:02] Your father passed right.
[41:04] Yes okay.
[41:06] So he he liked your parents.
[41:08] Yes yeah i'll have to say like uh he did have some few issues like he did realize that they are enablers you know um in yeah sorry i'm not sure what you mean by enablers well i can continue on with the story there's there's more okay um as far as enabling goes i have siblings right so of course i mentioned my older brother um i also have a younger sister and um we were very very close in high school almost like you know we would you know we would hang out things like that um together we had sorry can i just interrupt.
[41:47] For a second so you have an older brother how much older.
[41:49] Um my older brother is 11 years older than me because remember my mom had him when she was 18 okay so so hang on so.
[41:57] Sorry just say just say, so your older brother when you had the guy creeping around you when you were 15 your older brother was 26 he.
[42:09] Was no longer at home he moved did i ask that did i ask whether.
[42:13] He was at home.
[42:13] Oh well no i'm sorry so please.
[42:16] Just try and listen to what i'm saying and respond to that. It's going to be a lot more efficient. Okay. So he knew, of course, that you were dating a guy almost as old as he was. When you were 15?
[42:28] Yes.
[42:28] So what did he do?
[42:30] Probably knew him. He moved across the country.
[42:34] No, no. I didn't ask where he moved. What did he do about the fact that you, at 15, were being creeped on by a guy in his 20s?
[42:43] I think nothing.
[42:44] Okay, so why would you tell me that you're close when he doesn't lift a goddamn finger to protect you?
[42:52] Yeah. Like I said, I may be right. I mean, I may be wrong with this. but i think him being in his like later 20s at that point almost 30 um well yeah he was in his later 20s and he moved out no he was 26 he was 26 when he started dating when you quote.
[43:09] Started dating the guy.
[43:10] Yeah and i don't think me my brother were not quite that close i was closer to my sister during that time because me and my sister are closer in age but um my uh brother and You understand what happens.
[43:27] Though. You keep selling me these narratives, and when I ask a few basic questions, they all fall apart.
[43:33] Yeah.
[43:34] I'm so close to my brother. It's like, well, what did he do about the fact you're being creeped on? Nothing. Did he try to prevent you getting statutorily raped, perhaps? No.
[43:46] No.
[43:47] You're not close. Close means people care about you and protect you.
[43:53] Well, honestly... I'm going to say one thing. I don't think he knew a lot about what was happening at home.
[44:03] I don't care. I don't care. Because if you're close, you tell him things. And if you're telling him things, then you're not close.
[44:12] No, we were not. We are today. We are.
[44:15] Sorry, I don't believe anything. The problem is you keep saying things that turn out to be completely false. And then you say other things as if that didn't just happen. Stop giving me your conclusions. just give me the facts okay because your conclusions are not usually quite accurate so i'm just begging you for the facts because otherwise we have to i have to keep denying these these these conclusions or these beliefs like oh we were so close in high school so i'm just give me the facts and and let me draw my own conclusions i.
[44:43] Understand yeah i'm sorry if i said we were close i don't know if i said that by mistake or something but um yeah that's not no he was always He was like a decade older than I was. So he was kind of like a babysitter at times when I was little. Every once in a while. He didn't really have to babysit.
[45:02] Okay, so I got it. You weren't close.
[45:04] But he was kind of like a...
[45:05] Sorry, I get it. You weren't close. If you can go on with the story, please.
[45:09] Yeah, but not like at the same level of... Yeah. But, yeah, so... So that's that. But yes, so now, today...
[45:25] Wait, sorry, I thought there was more to the story. And it was... We just dropped 20 years here.
[45:31] I know, I'm kind of shifting gears here a little bit. Alright, I don't want to fast forward too much, but...
[45:38] Whatever you want, it's fine with me. I felt a little time whiplash there.
[45:42] Okay, sorry, I didn't mean to do a little Yui right there. um but i will say that uh yeah my parents basically think both my brother and myself now as we're both adults you know and we look back at our parents um you know they we we know that they're they enabled um okay you keep saying.
[46:06] That word but i don't know what it.
[46:08] Means yeah so well here okay let me just because i kind of got into a little a little spin around here um so currently to this day i think i think i'm gonna have to just i'm gonna have to sorry let me just back up for a sec how long.
[46:22] Did the ex-boyfriend live with your mom and you.
[46:26] Um okay so my memory is not gonna serve me 100 well i'm gonna tell you we're.
[46:32] Doing weed so i understand that.
[46:34] Cliche exactly exactly so i would have to say i do not know i know eventually he did leave but i would have to say it was maybe a few months i don't think it was an entire year but it was definitely a good amount of months but i was never home i was out out and about school work friends party um i was hardly okay that's fine.
[47:00] That's fine i just again you're giving me all of these.
[47:02] Qualifiers i'm just looking for the fact i'm just looking for the fact yeah but.
[47:05] You know something less than 12 months something more than a couple of months. Okay, that's fine.
[47:09] Yeah, I'm not, yeah. Again, just like you said, being on weed, all that stuff.
[47:15] No, no, see, again, I don't need the editorial. I'm just looking for the facts. I'm looking for the resume, not the poem, right? So, just so, something more than a couple of months, something less than a year. Okay, that's fine. So, sorry, and I apologize for interrupting because you were going on about the enabling. Sorry, I don't mean going on like negative way. You're continuing the story with the enabling, which I still don't understand by the word.
[47:37] Got you. And I know you are trying to pull this in a certain direction. I know how you do this.
[47:45] Sorry, you think I'm trying to pull this in a certain direction?
[47:48] Well, I think you're just trying to get important information so you can help develop it.
[47:52] Well, sorry, gathering information is not the same as having an agenda, right?
[47:57] Oh, no, I didn't mean that.
[47:58] I don't have an agenda here. I'm just trying to figure out what the facts are about your life.
[48:02] Yeah, I just think you're just gathering information, which makes perfect sense.
[48:06] All right. So if we can do the enabling stuff that goes from here, I'd appreciate that.
[48:10] Fast yeah so i'm gonna have to fast forward in this little story right here i'm gonna i'm gonna fast forward um and today my sister is almost about to be she's gonna be like 40 i think in october she's living at home with her three children um she's living at my parents house with her three children now for five years has not had a job in five years um is, separated from the children's dad she was never married to him and i know that's like a jump like what wait what there's a whole nother thing happening here but yeah so this is making me ruminate even more because you know parents don't last forever my mom's not going to be able to take care of her forever um and my sister is not trying to do anything with her life she's just sent home she still smokes weed to this day um but no sweet.
[49:11] When she's parenting.
[49:12] Yeah well her kids are actually all graduated now so there's also there's three adult children and children not really children sorry you said kids but.
[49:22] You mean adults.
[49:23] Yeah yeah and in my mind they're you know they They always be kids, but they're actually over the age of 18 now.
[49:29] Okay.
[49:29] The two youngest recently graduated. So now they're all graduated. Plus my sister. And of course, her kids don't, you know, they're innocent in this whole deal. They didn't know they're adults now.
[49:45] Right. So they have some responsibility now, but go on. Yeah.
[49:48] And they all do have jobs and things like that. But I kind of see this as never ending. um like she's gonna the kids are gonna be there until the end they're never gonna, leave you know and i know it's tough out there right now because it is very um expensive to like find an apartment or something and you know but now that they're all adults they could technically all kind of chip in and you know help their mom pay for you know an apartment or something like that but my sister also has to get herself up and get back to work um she had a little bit of a health issue why does she have to do that, Um, well, maybe she doesn't have to, but I just feel like if she establishes herself now, then later, you know, when my mom's not there anymore, at least, like, she's kind of established and she can live on her own.
[50:41] Well, sorry, but won't there be a lot of inheritance from your father?
[50:46] Uh yeah if the um you know me my brother my sister of course we will you know get the home of course we're gonna sell it and split it um but she won't she won't be able to be in the home we're gonna sell it and split it so she needs to make sure that she kind of knows how to like you know she should know how to um you know take care of herself but she's not doing anything she's just kind of sitting there with her kids, you know, she's always there. She's not working. She's not doing anything for herself. She kind of just, you know, hangs around at home all day and she lies about having a job too. We'll be like, you know, she asked me to, um, you know, uh, give her a reference for a job and things like that. And I pounded out a whole recommendation letter for her, all this stuff answered this whole questionnaire for this job that she wanted to get into. to she went to the interview and then they were going to give her the job and she never went back you know and she constantly lies and things like that but she's.
[51:47] A drug addict right.
[51:49] Yeah she used to she actually had a health problem about five years ago um she had liver failure so she was very very sick so i can understand how why did she have liver failure, yep um was she also a heavy drinker she was a heavy drinker okay so she.
[52:07] Probably damaged her liver from alcohol.
[52:09] Yeah and you know so hang on so so.
[52:13] Let me just understand this so you've been close with your sister since you were a kids right.
[52:17] Well we stopped being close we were close when we were in high school and then a little bit as i was in college but she eventually got with this guy that was a complete loser mess up like he constantly was doing drugs constantly could not hold down a job they got he got her pregnant when she was 17 um oh hang on sorry.
[52:45] When did she get.
[52:47] Yeah i got this pattern when did she get together with this guy i know yep so she gets pregnant how How old was she when she got together with this guy? She was in high school. High school is a range.
[53:00] Please, for God's sake, give me some facts.
[53:02] She was probably in the 10th grade, either 10th grade or 11th grade, something like that.
[53:09] So what's that, 15? 15?
[53:12] Yeah, actually, no. I'm sorry. Well, yeah, I think, yeah, we'll say 15. We'll say about 15.
[53:19] Okay, so you got together with a loser when you were 15.
[53:23] Exactly.
[53:24] And your sister got together with a loser when she was 15. And your mother got together with a loser and an abuser when she was 15.
[53:33] Yeah. The only difference with my sister's loser and my loser is that my loser, he never did any drugs. When I was in high school, no, he didn't drink.
[53:44] The party guy didn't drink?
[53:45] No, no, no. The party guy was the guy that I was with.
[53:49] Oh, sorry. Sorry. Yeah, yeah. The guy in the gas station when you were 15.
[53:52] Yeah. But the other guy that just worked at a gas station and acted a little bit immature for his age, the good thing was he never did drugs. So we were not doing anything like that in high school.
[54:03] Right.
[54:04] That happened more in college. But anyway.
[54:06] Okay. So your sister, she's how much younger than you? you.
[54:10] She's about four years younger than me.
[54:12] Okay so you were just getting out of your relationship with your gas station guy and yeah and then this guy okay please let me ask my questions you keep talking when i'm talking it's really disconcerting i'm not sure if you can't hear me or what, gotcha so your sister gets together with her loser when you're just breaking up with your loser her, and, did you not, I assume you warned her about this guy, right?
[54:40] Yep, I did. Yep, yep, yep. I certainly did. So what did you say? Well, one day my sister went on a cocaine spree with some friends of hers, right? She was just about in, I'll say 11th grade, whatever. We'll just give it a little bit later in height.
[54:58] She's 16 years old and doing cocaine.
[55:01] Cocaine yes and so she was out with um a mutual friend of ours and they were high on cocaine and we didn't see her for days so her quote-unquote boyfriend uh was was around hanging around and we decided to go look for my sister you know and um you know which which was good sorry how long How.
[55:26] Long did it take for you to start looking for your sister?
[55:30] Oh, no. As soon as she was gone, I think it was maybe after a day, I started to look for her.
[55:36] So 24 hours, she's not home, and you're like, maybe I should go looking for her.
[55:41] Yeah.
[55:42] Does that not seem like a long time when there's a child somewhere you don't know?
[55:46] It is. It is. But at least I did because nobody else was. oh so your mother and.
[55:57] Your father their daughter.
[55:58] Has a.
[55:59] Dangerous druggy boyfriend i assume he's older than her is that right.
[56:03] Uh slightly only by like a few years like he was i think i think he was like um like he was only like three or four years well yeah same same thing three years yeah same thing so so okay so she's.
[56:16] 15 he's 18 or 19.
[56:18] Yeah he's a child.
[56:19] He's an Okay, so you have a slightly less creepy guy, still creepy, and he's a druggie, and your sister goes missing, and your parents don't look for her.
[56:35] Exactly, exactly.
[56:36] So their asses should be in jail.
[56:39] Yeah.
[56:40] Like that's fucking criminal.
[56:43] It is.
[56:44] Throw their fucking asses in jail and throw away the key. That's not an option as a parent is to let your child go off with a druggy and not even fucking look.
[56:56] Yeah.
[56:57] Now, I don't know if you get this.
[57:00] I do. I do, but... I went out and I found her and that dopey dope was in my car and we rode up to a gas station and I made him go pay for the gas. And I got my sister in the car and I was like, let's go. And so I drove away with just her, right? Because I wanted to leave that guy, you know? So we drove away. We drove back to the house. And I was like, I told her, stay away from him.
[57:40] And then a week or so passed. Again, I don't know the exact time span, but in a relatively short amount of time, she goes and looks for him. And then she gets back with him, you know. And I told her not to do it. but I had to start focusing on myself too because I was in college and she was doing that I left um I went abroad for a year um for a few months I'm sorry I went abroad for the summer, um and did a little bit of studying abroad um and then I come back and she's pregnant And she's still in high school. Yeah. But anyway, so, um.
[58:33] So she stuck with them. She decided to keep the baby. She stuck with them. And they, you know, eventually moved out together and they never had any money. They kept coming back to my parents' house, back to my parents' house, living in crappy apartments.
[58:51] And they sometimes they couldn't pay the rent. Sometimes they couldn't pay the light. Sometimes their water got cut off because they couldn't pay anything.
[58:59] It was so ridiculous. and so my dad kept rescuing them rescuing them rescuing them every single time they needed a rescue there was my dad i'm gonna rescue you but it didn't it's not never helped her in the end she ended up eventually i mean even they even did some good moves um in their relationship they they did start their own business uh one thing that her loser could do was cut hair very well uh so he was a barber and then they decided my sister went to hair school so she did go to school for something learn how to do hair and um then they had their own business for a little bit but of course that tanked because of all the drugs and bad decisions they would my sister would be drunk at work basically you know um you know so they mix the the drugs in the work business would have been really good. They were both very good at what they did. My sister did hair very well and he did hair very well. They were very, very good. They probably would have been very, very successful if they did not have all those drugs involved.
[1:00:05] Are you still there, Stefan?
[1:00:07] Yes, go ahead.
[1:00:09] Okay. Sorry. I just heard a little bit clicking. I wasn't sure if the phone... But yeah. And then their business went down. Then they had to move back home again. And it it was just constantly like my parents raised their kids. Basically. They didn't even raise their kids. My parents raised their kids. Um, You know, it's just a really sad, annoying story.
[1:00:33] Sorry, but you say your parents raised her kids.
[1:00:37] Yeah, because they were always in and out, back and forth. And my mom even noted all of this on a calendar. And she added up all the money that she spent on them over the years. Because my mom, like, you know, back to her having a little bit of a control issue. So she would note down every time my sister moved back in. note down every single time they paid for something and gave her money. She never had to pay them back, but my mom still noted all this down. So she's very cognizant of every single thing that she did.
[1:01:11] Anyway, so now today my sister is at home with my mom, and her kids, and I'm kind of over it in a way at this point, but all the rumination and all the bad actors basically have been living in my head rent-free for so long and i want to thank you for this phone call that is kind of helping me like clear out my mind.
[1:01:41] Um and seeing it for what it is so definitely thank you but and and yeah i hope anybody that listens to this phone conversation right here um if you see anyone any young person in these type of situations drugs stay the hell away from the drugs it's like the worst thing you can do and also don't enable your kids because the end of the day someone's gonna get sick, someone's not going to be able to do anything anymore and now she's completely useless she doesn't even have her own bank accounts she's completely useless and i keep telling my mom i'm like mom why don't maybe you know maybe we got to help her get a little bit situated she's going to be 40 soon you know like she should maybe now her kids are older because you know she should start Start to establish herself. And I'm like, she's not. She's going to be like... See, my mom's gone. I don't know what's going to happen to her. Of course, we're going to divide things, whatever the will, blah, blah. But I don't know what she's going to do with it. I don't even know if she can function. But yeah, just for anybody out there, just stay the hell away from drugs. Just don't do it. And keep your kids the hell away from the predators. Because...
[1:03:06] It only spirals and gets worse. It's not good. And that's just, well, tell the world. It's very serious. Stefan's right. It's not a laughing matter. Very serious.
[1:03:22] And I feel for you. It's very tough to see somebody being disassembled by biochemicals decade after decade.
[1:03:29] Yeah. Yeah, it is. and of course.
[1:03:32] Like i'm no doctor obviously but my guess would be that there's not much left of your sister.
[1:03:36] No she's completely her brain is so fried it's so fried i.
[1:03:42] Mean she's been doing drugs for 25 years right.
[1:03:44] Yeah right she's not the person she was she was so smart when she was in high school and she was so she's not the person she is you know you can't even talk to her she'll lie to all she does is lie you know and she'll just manipulate and she'll look you straight in the eye and tell you but you know it's like if she's if her mouth is moving she's lying you know it's like she's never um she's never going to be the same again she's completely she's a husk of the person she once was she's a complete husk she's not there her soul is no longer in her body she's It was just, ah, that's it.
[1:04:22] Yeah, I mean, drugs are kind of a devil, right?
[1:04:25] Yeah.
[1:04:26] They're kind of a devil, and you sell your soul.
[1:04:32] Yeah.
[1:04:33] And I can't imagine what it was like for her children.
[1:04:36] No, I know.
[1:04:37] Drug addict mother, that's horrible.
[1:04:40] Yeah, drug addict mother, father, irresponsible. Not, you know, I remember, you know, they wouldn't have food in the fridge sometimes. And again, not being able to pay your electric. I mean, it's just horrible. It's just completely ridiculous, off-the-wall stuff. And then constantly having to move back in with their grandparents and things like that. It's completely unstable. environment. Luckily, you know, my dad's reasoning, I remember my dad telling me his reason for taking them in constantly. He didn't want them to become wardens of the state. He didn't want them to become...
[1:05:21] Sorry, I don't follow your father's logic.
[1:05:25] Yeah, he just didn't want to see them on the streets. He was doing it for the kids.
[1:05:28] Sorry, I still don't understand your father's logic.
[1:05:33] his daughter was a drug addict and she was a drug addict because he had failed to protect her so I have no sympathy for your parents and the money they had to pay and the stress and the strain I have no sympathy, none I mean they chose not to protect their children, they made that choice see apparently your mom was more interested in how to properly stack the fucking dishwasher than to protect their children from drugs and predators, yep it's really important to clean right yep I mean that's insane yep it's insane and again massively corrupt right mm-hmm, because she has a standard of excellence she only applies it to countertops and doing the dishes right.
[1:06:18] Yep, she was always...
[1:06:19] Not actually protecting her children. So I have no sympathy for your parents. If you fail to protect your children or your 15 or 16-year-old daughter goes off on a drug bender and you can't even be bothered to go look for her?
[1:06:31] Yeah.
[1:06:31] I mean, I have no sympathy. Like, you reap what you sow. I have no sympathy for parents like that. In fact, I'd like to put them in jail. Or some equivalent. So the reason I don't understand your father's logic is, he was there to protect the children. right?
[1:06:50] Mm-hmm.
[1:06:50] Right? So what's the best way to protect the children?
[1:06:56] Probably by getting your mom off the drugs and away from the boyfriend well from the gate, like out of the gate. Like, he should have never let this happen after the first time.
[1:07:06] No, no, no. Once the kids are there, she had three kids with this guy, right?
[1:07:12] Yeah.
[1:07:12] Okay. So once the children are there, what's the best way to protect the children?
[1:07:20] Probably kicking them out nope um you can't kick out the kids it's not their fault their mother's.
[1:07:26] A drug addict you can't kick.
[1:07:27] Yeah not not yet not good but kicking out the parents um and making the parents you know establish themselves before they can see their kids again not having them all just how do you do that what.
[1:07:38] Are the practical steps you take to get the children safe.
[1:07:43] Well like i said i'm not any kind of expert in this no you know you know i mean obviously i not really sure what the right answer would be okay so what.
[1:07:54] You do is you document their drug addiction you go.
[1:07:58] To the fucking.
[1:07:59] Court and you get custody.
[1:08:03] Yes. Yeah.
[1:08:06] Right. And then you say to your kids, hey, you know, I'm really sorry I wasn't there to protect you. You can't raise these children safely. So I will pay for rehab. You have to go. You have to get clean. And, you know, once you go and you get clean and you have a safe way to stay sober.
[1:08:24] Yeah.
[1:08:24] Right. Then you can see your kids again.
[1:08:27] Oh, my goodness. I wish it would have went down like that.
[1:08:30] No, no. I mean, is this not blindingly obvious?
[1:08:33] Yeah, I know.
[1:08:35] So you see, they still fail to protect the children.
[1:08:38] Yeah.
[1:08:39] Even after everything, well, I guess it's almost inevitable, right?
[1:08:43] Yeah.
[1:08:43] Not giving a shit about the kids seems to be foundational to this entire family structure.
[1:08:50] Yeah. It is extremely ironic that as he was trying to help them, he actually hurt them in the end because their mom was...
[1:09:00] It's not ironic. It's not ironic. Okay. Your father, an intelligent man, right?
[1:09:06] Yeah. Yeah, he was with many things. Maybe he was, I don't know.
[1:09:11] Okay. So when you are dealing with an addict, and if you don't have a history of dealing with addicts, right?
[1:09:19] Mm-hmm.
[1:09:20] So what do you do when you're at a loss of how to deal with an addict?
[1:09:27] Go to a professional. That's right.
[1:09:30] You engage a professional, an addiction counselor, a lawyer who specializes in dealing with addiction issues. You engage a professional and you submit to the professional. In the same way, like, you know, if I don't know how to work out, I'll at least look it up or engage a personal trainer or something like that. Right?
[1:09:51] Yeah.
[1:09:53] Okay.
[1:09:53] Exactly.
[1:09:54] So did your father and did your father and your mother realize they were completely in over their heads, right? Did they realize that? And did they get help?
[1:10:06] No, of course not. That's why this whole thing ended up the way it is. And the real not funny part is that family now is like suggesting to my mom that maybe my sister get a... a personal um what is it called if you have like a life uh i'm gonna say life assistant but someone that could teach her how to get back at it and things like that but i'm like you know it just seems like this is so i i guess you could maybe having maybe she should actually that might not even be a bad idea her getting some like therapy of some sort or having a um i'm sorry is your sister.
[1:10:51] Still using drugs uh.
[1:10:53] Like i said yes she doesn't okay so therapy won't do any good die if she did so no i'm no hang on.
[1:11:00] So i'm no expert but.
[1:11:01] I don't.
[1:11:02] Believe that any competent and responsible professional will take on an addict while they're still an addict because the whole.
[1:11:08] Point of is.
[1:11:09] You have to do things that are difficult in order to benefit from therapy and if you just run to your drug then you won't be able to benefit from therapy be.
[1:11:16] That's true yeah, is so i don't know right now she's like like i mentioned she's not herself she's the husk of who she used to be she's lying manipulative so even if we were to go out and be like oh go to therapy you know i don't know if she would actually do that consistently um you know i guess at this point that would be like my mom would have to decide like if she wants but yeah Actually, family has mentioned that to her.
[1:11:54] Sorry, has mentioned what? Therapy?
[1:11:56] Mentioned, yeah, that my sister should get some sort of, yeah, like it could be something like therapy.
[1:12:02] How has this gone on for 25 years? This is what I don't understand.
[1:12:07] Yeah, it's been going on for two decades.
[1:12:10] No, no, but how and why? She's 40 now, right?
[1:12:15] Yeah, she's about to turn 40.
[1:12:16] It's about 1040, and she first started doing drugs in her mid-teens, so that's a quarter century. Mm-hmm.
[1:12:22] Yeah.
[1:12:22] So I don't quite understand why the urge would be, or what the urge is to fix it now.
[1:12:30] Yeah, I know. You can't. I know. It's a little too late for all that. Yeah, I do.
[1:12:37] Why did it not happen earlier? That's what I don't understand.
[1:12:40] It yeah that's i i wish i had the answers to that but yeah it's only i mean people knew everybody knew that she was kept that she like i guess no no one just no one thought of that and you're right i mean it isn't sorry i mean uh you know it's just it's just crazy that no one thought about, you know therapy you know or i don't know what the answer is but i'm i.
[1:13:09] Don't understand why nobody got help with a desperate problem nobody got help when they were for 25 years unable to solve this problem i.
[1:13:22] Don't know well.
[1:13:24] You do know that.
[1:13:24] Well yeah um, I mean, my parents, I, you know, it should have been on them to get her help.
[1:13:35] Well, okay. But you've also been an adult for 24 years.
[1:13:40] Yeah. I wasn't around them.
[1:13:43] Like, what's the point of caring now? That's what I don't understand.
[1:13:46] Oh, that's true. Well, yeah.
[1:13:49] Now that the damage is done and her brain is probably fried and the kids are all grown, it's like, we've got to help her. What?
[1:13:56] Yeah, I know.
[1:13:58] No, don't give me this yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's a serious question.
[1:14:02] It is serious. It's not funny. You're right. You're right. You know what? You are right, as usual. And I have no opposition to that. You were right.
[1:14:16] Okay, so why? I mean, it wasn't important enough for you, right? You're close to your sister. I know you haven't been for a long time, but you care about your sister. you see that she can't win against her addiction for whatever reason you see for 25 years that your parents are unable to help her with her addiction right now you you know for a simple fact that there are experts out there who deal with addiction right well.
[1:14:42] I think and i'm i'm not saying you're wrong you're you're right but i think as this whole thing was progressing progressing. Every time she would move in and then eventually they would move out and things would be kind of okay. And, you know, we didn't really live in very close to each other either as all this was going down. Oh my God.
[1:15:05] If I had a dime, if I had a dime for every, we didn't live in the same place excuse, I'd be a bazillionaire.
[1:15:11] I know. Yeah.
[1:15:12] Come on.
[1:15:13] I figured this is going to be.
[1:15:14] Children growing up with two drug addicts as parents. And you're all faffing around for 25 years. Now the kids are grown and her brain is fried. Suddenly you're all about, we got to do something?
[1:15:28] Well, nobody is about that. Just me.
[1:15:33] Okay, why you then?
[1:15:34] Listen, I, you know.
[1:15:36] Why you?
[1:15:36] I, I don't know. I don't know why.
[1:15:40] You let these kids grow up with two drug addict parents. Now they're grown and you're tortured? I don't understand. You let that happen.
[1:15:47] Well, I don't think I let that happen.
[1:15:50] Yes, you did. Because did you go to, did you go to, hang on, did you go to an addiction specialist specialist, and say, we have an addict, it's been going on for a long time, we're unable to solve it, and there are children involved? Did you go to a social worker? Did you phone up an addiction specialist? Did you go to rehab and say, how do we get this woman in? Did you go to a lawyer and say, these children are unprotected? What can we do? How do we get custody? How do we get them out of this hellhole? Now, you didn't do that, right? I mean, I'm not trying to nag on you. I'm just saying that didn't happen for 25 years.
[1:16:28] Yeah, you're right. I guess there's no one else. So, I mean, I said stuff to them throughout the years, but yeah, I guess I never really...
[1:16:38] No, but it didn't work. Your family pursued that, which did not work for 25 years. Now, and you were an adult when it started. Because you were 19 and she was 15, right?
[1:16:52] Yeah.
[1:16:53] And you'd already ditched your loser... boyfriend and you were going to go to the drinking boyfriend the party boyfriend right okay so yeah for your entire adulthood your sister has been addicted to drugs, And you, other than, like, and whatever you did, did not work for 25 years.
[1:17:17] Yeah, I mean, one thing I can say is, like, her addiction was, she was, in some ways, and this is going to sound stupid, in some ways, she was, like, a functional addict. But again, that sounds ridiculous, because if she was functional, it wouldn't have happened.
[1:17:34] There were two drug addicts raising your nephews, right? Right.
[1:17:39] Yeah.
[1:17:40] Okay. And you, did you read any books on it? Did you do any research? Right.
[1:17:47] I think honestly, did you do.
[1:17:49] Did you at least, did you at least read a book on addiction in the family?
[1:17:56] No, but I did do internet searches. And like I said.
[1:18:00] Oh, fantastic. Okay. So when did you do that? Hang on, hang on.
[1:18:04] Hang on.
[1:18:05] When did you do internet searches?
[1:18:08] Um, I've been doing that ever since the internet was invented. So I would say back in early, um, college, once everyone had an actual computer, you know, in their home at some point, you know, um, yeah, just the only internet that was actually kind of interesting to look up things. And then when I was pregnant with my first son, I looked up a lot of information about, you know, babies and, you know, how to take care of them.
[1:18:34] No, I'm talking about your sister.
[1:18:36] Yeah, yeah, I know. But, you know, and I was always, I'm always looking up stuff. And I guess with my sister, I kind of let my parents do their parenting, which probably is not a good idea.
[1:18:51] No, no, not an excuse. Okay, when she was gone at 15 or 16 years of age on her Coke bender, who had to go and get her?
[1:19:01] Me.
[1:19:01] Okay, so the idea that you're going to let your parents do their parenting thing when they didn't even give a shit, really, that they're, child was missing with an addict for 24 hours so you can't possibly make the case, that you were relying on your parents doing their parenting thing when you had absolute direct firsthand evidence how terrible they were well.
[1:19:25] I'll tell you what too and again this is not an excuse but uh my sister and i were not on a talking basis during much of this time we did.
[1:19:35] Sorry, I don't know what that has to do with anything.
[1:19:37] Yeah, I know. Because you're going to an addiction specialist.
[1:19:43] An addiction specialist will know that there's emotional terrorism in addiction, right? There's threats, lies, bribes, pleas, attacks, emotional abuse, sometimes physical abuse, and lying, for sure. And you think addiction specialists have never dealt with families where the drug addict is not talking to anyone? Of course they have. And they know about 6 billion different strategies to deal with that.
[1:20:09] Yep.
[1:20:11] So you did all of these searches. Did you do searches on how to deal with an addict in the family?
[1:20:17] Nope, because in my mind at the time, she wasn't my addict. She was their addict because I wasn't talking to her. And even if I did talk to her, remember, she never listened to me. I know. No excuses for me. No excuses.
[1:20:27] Okay, so you didn't care fundamentally that your nephews were being... Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. Let me speak. So you didn't care fundamentally in a practical sense, right? You washed your hands of it. And look, maybe that was the right thing to do. I don't know. I don't know. So I'm not criticizing you. But the fact is that you washed your hands of the whole business and let your nephews get raised by two drug addicts.
[1:20:54] Yeah.
[1:20:54] Okay, so that's what you did. So, why care now that they're adults? I don't understand. Like now, if I'm just going to watch someone struggling out there in the ocean.
[1:21:10] Well, I think I didn't want to.
[1:21:11] It's still middle of the sentence, right? So, if I'm going to watch someone struggle out there in the ocean, and I am not going to go and help them, and then they finally get to shore what's the point of feeling bad then now that it's beyond the need to help.
[1:21:32] Yep um I didn't do my part that's probably what it was I.
[1:21:39] Don't know what that means you're still not answering the question you didn't help your nephews in any practical or decisive way the whole time their children are being raised by drug addicts, and now you feel you're you're ruminating or you're feeling i mean the reason you're ruminating is you haven't processed why, yeah well why did your family and you you were the moral conscience of the family like i know it sucks but that's just the way that it is you had to go looking for your sister right, yeah okay so you hang on so you are the moral conscience hang on hang on yeah you are the the moral conscience of your family, and you are the one who keeps children safe because you went to look for your sister, right?
[1:22:23] Yes.
[1:22:24] And you decided not to help your sister, and you decided not to help your nephews.
[1:22:33] Yeah. Now there were times when I wanted to reach out and see how they're doing. I would even go to her place. Sometimes I, one time I knocked up at her place to go visit them. You know, this is early on when the kids were so little and things, um, I would knock up and she wouldn't answer the door, you know? So there was times when I tried to, you know, interact with them sometimes i would take her kids out with my parents she may or may not have been there when we went out but sometimes you know i would i would take them out they could hang out with my kids so i always try to be a part of their lives and i even you know was trying to reach out to my sister in between as well um but throughout the years um her manipulation is not something that happened overnight well that's not her manipulation she's.
[1:23:29] A drug addict.
[1:23:30] Yeah it's just exactly so all throughout the years it was like hit or miss in our relationship, and you know but there was plenty of times that i was trying to reach out see how they're doing but it didn't work me away i know i know she's just telling.
[1:23:51] Me all of these things that you did that didn't work.
[1:23:53] Yeah yeah i get it i i know no you don't i guess no you.
[1:23:58] Don't because if you got it you'd stop saying it.
[1:24:01] Yeah okay.
[1:24:03] Listen i'm not i know this sounds hypercritical i don't mean it that way i don't like.
[1:24:08] You might have you might have done entirely.
[1:24:09] The right thing i don't know but the.
[1:24:12] Fact that you know i.
[1:24:14] Asked did you do any searches right on on how to deal And you said, yes, I did searches, and it turns out that the searches that you did were all about raising babies. And you didn't search for any—hang on. Okay, you've got to stop this. Please. I'm begging you. I keep talking, and you just keep talking in the middle of me talking.
[1:24:34] Sorry?
[1:24:35] That's really disruptive, and it's really annoying.
[1:24:39] I got you. Thank you.
[1:24:40] I appreciate that. All right. Right. So I asked, did you do any searches on how to help people with addiction? And you said, yes, I did searches all the time in the 90s. I was searching for everything. And it turns out that you were searching for baby stuff and other stuff, but nothing to do with helping your sister.
[1:25:01] So when you tell me, well, we were apart, well, I tried to come by, but she wouldn't answer the door and so on. Okay. So then you do something like the children need to be protected. That's the one thing that needs to happen in your family. The children need to be protected. And all I know is, for 25 years, well, I mean, minus some time before she got pregnant, but for well over 20 years, your sister's children were not protected. Well, I did this, and I did that, and I did the other, but I never consulted an expert. I never consulted a therapist or a lawyer. I never read a book. I never watched a video. I never did anything, even though the information is literally in your back pocket, on the phone, right?
[1:25:55] Yeah.
[1:25:58] So, why are you ruminating? Because you don't have an answer. And you did not, look, let's just be frank. And this is probably a lot to do with how you're raised, but I'm going to be frank about it anyway. Anyway, you did not love your sister or, in particular, her children enough to do whatever it took to make them safe.
[1:26:22] You're right.
[1:26:24] It's a phone call away. It's one internet search away. How do you deal with an addict who won't listen? And there's tons of resources. There are lawyers, social workers, addiction counselors, specialists, right? And then your mother wouldn't have had to spend how many hundreds of thousands of dollars or whatever that she had to spend. She would have had to spend, you know, 10 or 20K to get custody. And then, you know, maybe another couple of K or 5 or 10K max for rehab. have and this could have been happening 20 years ago i.
[1:26:55] Don't think my dad i mean i i know i can just speculate or whatever but i don't think he would because like i did ask my dad about it you know like and like i mentioned his explanation was he did not you know but of course yes he could have just gotten sorry he did not what um yeah like um okay i don't want to like i don't journal about this too much but you raised it you said.
[1:27:23] You asked your dad about it and.
[1:27:24] He did not what so he you know explained to me why you know he was doing what he was doing he explained this to me explained it to everyone that he didn't want to see the kids grow up in an unstable home you know so that's why he was providing them with the home i'm sorry he didn't want to see the.
[1:27:47] The kids grew up in an unstable home, so he left them under the legal control of two drug addicts.
[1:27:54] Yeah, I know.
[1:27:55] Okay, so did your father consult with any experts about the right thing to do?
[1:28:04] Yeah, I don't think any of us did. Yeah, none of us did. Nobody did.
[1:28:08] Okay, so he's just making shit up.
[1:28:12] Yeah, I think maybe it's just different things. I think different circumstances that.
[1:28:21] Okay, this gaslighting nonsense has got to stop too. Oh, different things and we live a distance. And like, look, you either connect, you're going to connect with this emotionally or you're not.
[1:28:33] Gotcha.
[1:28:34] Right, because you asked me about basically why am I ruminating? Why am I obsessing in particular about my sister? i'm giving you the answer and you're brushing me off which you're welcome to do i'm you can do whatever you want but it's bizarre to me i mean am i wrong no.
[1:28:50] You're right yeah we definitely should have gotten help for her and i think i think that's the moral of this story but the.
[1:29:00] Question is why not why was there so little love for her children that you all didn't make one fucking phone call in 20 plus years. To the point now where the kids are all grown and her brain is fried.
[1:29:19] I know.
[1:29:20] Because if you didn't care, then just keep on not caring and you're fine. If you do care now that it's too late, the question is why didn't you care before? I mean, I said this last night on the live stream. I will not accept any criticism from my conscience if my conscience didn't say anything beforehand. If my conscience says, oh, don't do this, and I don't listen, my conscience has every right to get mad at me afterwards. But if my conscience doesn't say anything beforehand, then I will not accept criticism afterwards. So, you were an internet kid. You know that addicts are everywhere in society. You know that you and your family were We're not solving the problem for 25 years. And you didn't make a phone call.
[1:30:16] Yes.
[1:30:16] So the question is, why? Now, you can get mad at yourself on this, but it's a genuine question of curiosity. You're tortured by this problem for 25 years. You don't make one phone call. I mean, do you want the answer? I can tell you why.
[1:30:33] Yeah.
[1:30:35] Okay, so the reason your father died in November, right?
[1:30:39] Mm-hmm.
[1:30:40] When did these more intense ruminations start?
[1:30:43] Well they've been on and off for years actually and these ruminations are not yes but enough.
[1:30:50] To do for email.
[1:30:51] But i think yeah yeah yeah but i think uh yeah with my father's passing i think my yeah it did it did help kick up the ruminations okay so so the reason why The.
[1:31:05] Reason why you didn't make the phone call to an addiction specialist, the reason why you didn't say, we have to get custody of these kids, the reason why you didn't do any of this is because your parents didn't want you to.
[1:31:24] I don't think they, yeah, I think that they had everything under control.
[1:31:31] No, they didn't have anything under control.
[1:31:33] Well, they didn't have...
[1:31:33] No, this is just... You've got to slow your own words. It's all just defensive noise, right?
[1:31:38] Yeah, yeah. No, you're right.
[1:31:41] Okay, so... Why did your parents not want your sister to get professional help?
[1:31:55] For the same reason they kind of let everyone kind of just do what they wanted.
[1:32:02] Okay that doesn't answer why why yeah.
[1:32:05] It doesn't answer i gotta, dig in for the right words here but it's kind of a lot to.
[1:32:15] Okay um so imagine okay so so you you i'll pretend to be an addiction specialist which i'm not but i'll just pretend to be for the sake of this show right i'll be pretend to be the addiction specialist you pretend to be be your mom she phones and i pick up say hello addiction specialist here how can i help.
[1:32:38] So and and my my mom is talking to them.
[1:32:41] Yes i mean it could be your dad but it might be she would never call okay so let's make it your dad what would your dad say um.
[1:32:54] Yeah, maybe. Yeah, I guess. Well, my dad, yeah, he may. Yeah, he would. Well, you know what? My dad kind of just wanted to take care of everything, too. He just wanted to take care of stuff himself sometimes, you know? Okay. Why? So I can't remember that I'm calling a therapist. this okay.
[1:33:16] Let's pretend they did because this is why they didn't let's pretend.
[1:33:21] Yeah okay so what would your father say let's.
[1:33:24] Say your daughter sorry let's say your sister is uh 25 years old right so 15 years.
[1:33:29] And they're like maybe he's got.
[1:33:31] Three kids they're young she's got a drug addict boyfriend and for the sake of the kids.
[1:33:38] He's like i got.
[1:33:39] A call i got a call for help.
[1:33:40] Yeah my dad reaching out for help is like not one of the things okay so we're not going to do.
[1:33:46] The role play i just don't want to waste.
[1:33:48] Time just yeah i mean i okay maybe go back to my mom but i don't know let's go back to your mom your mom calls yeah i'm sorry for being difficult with that one but they're just your mom calls and i.
[1:33:58] Say hello addiction specialist here how can i help you.
[1:34:01] All right so my mom finally got pushed maybe through a family member and they were standing right next to her and she was calling that or maybe you're saying mom if you.
[1:34:10] Don't make the call i will.
[1:34:11] Yeah i wish you don't make the call.
[1:34:13] I'm going for custody.
[1:34:16] Yeah i should have pushed them okay let's just say something happens.
[1:34:21] That they make the call.
[1:34:22] So something happens that they make the call my mom's standing there she would probably hand if it was me making her call she probably end up handing me the phone okay so you hand it back to her and the therapist the The addiction specialist says.
[1:34:39] Look, I know this is tough. I sympathize. I deal with this all the time. I know it's a difficult thing to reach out for help. I know it's tough. I'm here to help. Please just tell me what's going on.
[1:34:51] Yeah. So she would, you know, say, you know, I need help with my daughter. She's not, you know, she doesn't have a job. She's, you know, she's having, she has problems with drugs, you know, and alcohol. What, what can I do?
[1:35:06] Okay, I'm sorry to hear that. I really am sorry to hear that. My huge sympathies for the situation. I'll obviously do my very best. This consultation is free, so I'll do my very best to see if I can help you. Okay, I just need a bit of background information. When did your daughter start having trouble with drugs, and how old is she now?
[1:35:27] She started in high school, and now she's...
[1:35:30] I'm sorry, I just need to be more precise. High school is a range from like 14 to 18 or 15 to 18.
[1:35:34] She was maybe about, or she was about 14, 15, 14 years old.
[1:35:40] Oh, so she was 14 years old. And do you have any idea what kind of drugs she got involved with?
[1:35:46] Um, I don't know much about what the kids are into.
[1:35:51] Um, but I think, you know, I hear them talking about weed, you know, alcohol, my, my, my mom, like on the side, she knows nothing about drugs. She never took drugs in her life. She never even smoked a cigarette.
[1:36:03] So, um, No, your mother would have to know something about drugs because she's got a drug addict daughter. In fact, you had two for a while.
[1:36:10] At the time when we were in high school.
[1:36:13] Okay, so then what would you, you would whisper to your mom what?
[1:36:18] I would say, Mom.
[1:36:20] It was weed and cocaine and alcohol.
[1:36:22] Yeah, I would be like, Mom, tell him, you know, she was doing weed.
[1:36:26] Okay, so then your mother says what to the counselor?
[1:36:28] So she goes back to the counselor and she says, well, you know, I'm told she was doing weed, cocaine, and alcohol.
[1:36:37] Okay, at the age of 14. And how old is she now?
[1:36:40] And now she is about 25 years old.
[1:36:43] Oh, gosh. Okay. So it's been 11 years of obviously probably not the same drugs all the time, but some combination of fairly intense drugs. And so it's been 11 years. And are there any children involved? Loft.
[1:36:58] Yeah, she has three children with her boyfriend, which is also involved in the same types of drugs. They're having trouble holding down, you know, their business. They can't pay the bills and now they're moving back in with us. But I want my daughter to clean up her act and even her boyfriend, too. Maybe they both need therapy. I would like to see them staying together and having a more healthier relationship with their children, setting a better example for their children.
[1:37:32] I'm sorry, I understand what you want. I'm still trying to get some background information here. I mean, I think everybody wants, they call me because they want the kids to clean up. So if both your daughter and her boyfriend, and sorry, they're three kids, is that right?
[1:37:47] Okay.
[1:37:48] And how old are they roughly? I mean, you don't have to give me details.
[1:37:51] He has one son that is the oldest. I'm trying to think if my sister was 25. Her son right now is about 22 years old right now. So I don't know. We'll just say he was.
[1:38:09] Okay, let's just say three kids under the age of six.
[1:38:11] Yeah, three kids under the age of 10.
[1:38:16] Well, no, if she's 25, she's not going to have a 10-year-old.
[1:38:19] Yeah well well she had two the two girls that she had were twins and then he was like um he was like she had the twins after he she had her she had him when she was about 17 going on 18 and then five or six years later she had the girls so it was got it yeah so we'll say under the age of 10 only because of that she had her the the two a little bit in her 20s like more in her 20s yeah Okay.
[1:38:45] Got it. So, okay, so you have three kids under the age of eight, let's say, or nine.
[1:38:49] Yeah, they're all school-age kids.
[1:38:51] Okay, so if she's a drug addict, I mean, drugs are very expensive. And, uh, do, do either of them have jobs?
[1:39:01] Oh yeah. They have their own, they have their own barbershop. They have their own business and they have a lot of clients and, uh, you know, they do a really good job. The only thing is, is that they are, yes, they're spending their money on very expensive alcohol, um, you know, and drugs. And they're also not, you know, sometimes they don't like, they almost like do a, a barter system with some of their clients, like for haircuts. so you know i can imagine that maybe some of the haircut some of the clients paid for their haircuts with drugs and things like that so it could have been a combination of that as well.
[1:39:35] Okay so they're relatively functional obviously not saving much money but they are running a business and so they're relatively functional with regards to the drugs until.
[1:39:45] They stop they forget to pay their electric bill and they're without water and you know.
[1:39:51] Well i just have to run a barbershop without an electricity yeah okay so the business is probably not going to do too well for too long right yeah now how did they get the money to pay for the drugs well let's just talk about your daughter who i'm sure you would know more about so how did your daughter get the money to pay for her drugs when she was in her mid-teens oh.
[1:40:12] When she was in her mid-teens um i don't know let me ask my other daughter because i'm really not so certain or.
[1:40:19] Okay you tell your mother then.
[1:40:21] And I would say, mom, I mean, like when we were in teenagers, like friends would, you know, buy stuff. And and also we did have jobs in high school, though, too. So she did.
[1:40:32] Cocaine is expensive, right?
[1:40:33] Yeah, exactly.
[1:40:34] Like, how did she get the drugs?
[1:40:37] Yeah. So she got it from probably predatory men.
[1:40:44] Was it fair to say? And I'm sorry to be so blunt, but I just need to get a little bit of the lay of the land. Did your sister sleep with men to get drugs? In other words, they gave her drugs because of sexual interest, and if she had said, I'm a lesbian, or I'm a nun, or I am frigid, or I have no intention of having sex with anyone, would they still have bought her the drugs?
[1:41:08] Um, yeah, no, of course not.
[1:41:11] Okay, so there was at least some exchange of sexual interests or sexual favors in return for drugs.
[1:41:18] Um, most, most likely within their circle of friends and things like that. So yes. And then her boyfriend was supplying her with the drugs too. And he was actually not, he did not have a job in high school. He actually sold weed in high school.
[1:41:33] Oh, so he was a drug dealer.
[1:41:35] Yeah, so he was a drug dealer as well. So he was doing that.
[1:41:38] Sorry, when did you first find out that your daughter was doing drugs?
[1:41:43] I found out because just her leaving.
[1:41:49] Going out. Just give me the age.
[1:41:52] When she was in high school, about 15, 16, she left home around 16 and she was gone. Nobody knew where she was. we were trying to find her um her sister knew somebody that knew like approximately where she was she was so she went out and she looked for her i'm sorry so sorry you didn't.
[1:42:17] You didn't and you didn't know that she was doing drugs before she vanished at the age of 16.
[1:42:21] Well i kind of had a feeling that some things were going on and i just i'm sorry.
[1:42:28] To i just need the facts so.
[1:42:31] Yeah She actually started.
[1:42:32] Doing drugs at 15 or 14, you said, right? So at what age did you begin to suspect that she might be doing drugs?
[1:42:40] Um, probably closer to the time that she left home and she was gone.
[1:42:46] Um, sorry to interrupt. So for the first two years, you didn't know that she was doing drugs?
[1:42:51] Well, no, that's not true. I probably, I knew about it when she was out late at night, she would leave home, come back in the morning.
[1:43:03] Um, she would leave her at night and be out all night at what age?
[1:43:08] Age uh 14 15.
[1:43:11] So why just out of curiosity i mean i assume that's you and you're married right, yes okay so you and your husband knew that your daughter was going out all night at the age of 14 which you know there's nothing good in that right there's no no nothing good so you would.
[1:43:27] Take the car while we were sleeping we didn't know she was gone and then she would come back and.
[1:43:32] Well you You must have known that she was gone.
[1:43:35] Yeah, well, we found out after her boyfriend crashed one of my husband's cars. He crashed his truck. So then we found out that they were...
[1:43:47] Well, no, but you must have had some idea. I mean, she would have been tired. There would have been mileage on the car. The gas would go down. I mean, you'd have some idea, right?
[1:43:56] Yeah. Well, yeah, sometimes we would. Sometimes she would be pretty smart about it and she would refill the gas can.
[1:44:02] Okay, but you're a grown woman, and the idea of being outsmarted by a 14-year-old is kind of silly, right?
[1:44:09] It is.
[1:44:10] Okay, so, sorry to interrupt again. My apologies for interrupting again. So, who is at fault? Who is responsible for your daughter being a drug addict?
[1:44:24] My husband and myself, but I don't know if my mom would actually say it like that. she might just be like well i told her so many times to you know she shouldn't do this it's bad you know um but.
[1:44:38] She never sorry and the reason i'm asking all of this is that if people don't admit fault there's not really much point trying to help them right yeah i know so you you let your daughter get involved with a drug dealer and stay out all night when she was 14.
[1:44:55] You know um and now 11 years later you're asking for help after.
[1:45:01] She has had do you know if she did drugs during her pregnancy.
[1:45:04] Um i don't think so i think she was she tried to stay clean during her pregnancy i would hope so she doesn't live with me at the moment so um but yes when she was with her first pregnancy she was living at home with us because she was still in high school so no i I don't think she was doing anything with her second pregnancy. She was not living with us, but I would, I would hope that she was not doing anything.
[1:45:31] Okay. So do you have any insights as to why you've waited 11 years after signs of, you know, terrible addiction and dysfunction in the family, in the family, right? There's a reason why 14 year olds go out all night and it's not because they're happy at home and close to their parents, right? Is that fair to say?
[1:45:50] That is fair to say. no that's my mom would not not like this this is why my mom would not not be in a therapy well because i mean and we could go down this path but the reason that your parents didn't ask for help is.
[1:46:02] They didn't want their criminal sins exposed.
[1:46:05] Yeah they didn't want a professional looking.
[1:46:08] Over the family structure and say you guys fucked up beyond repair.
[1:46:10] I know that's i can't even act it out or anything or even try so she just went that's not even her character like okay Okay.
[1:46:17] So the problem is that you let your parents' avoidance of their own conscience dictate your indifference or lack of energy in saving your sister. Your parents didn't want the evils in the family exposed. And they would rather your sister be a drug addict than face their own black-hearted behavior.
[1:46:48] Yeah i think unfortunately that's the that's the conclusion to this because yeah and it seems like a cycle i mean sorry to i don't want to throw it on or anything but looking back it just seems like a whole cycle of this for in many situations and even to this day they still um my mom when i talk, Yeah.
[1:47:20] Everyone thinks that the pathological lying of the addict is singular to the addict, but it usually comes from pathological lying from the parents.
[1:47:28] Yeah.
[1:47:28] And the pathological lie of your parents is we can handle this. We got it.
[1:47:33] Yeah, that's okay.
[1:47:34] So let me ask you this. Why, why do you want to be in this family in structure and family environment?
[1:47:41] That's why I, I think I mentioned this when, you know, I wrote to you that I think, I think I did. I try to keep it pretty short, but I think I wrote to you. I i mentioned that i i'm kind of on again off again i don't visit them that often because usually when i did and i saw these things happening in their household it just it got so annoying for me and you're right i should have actually probably stepped up more but i know no but you didn't and and i'm not again.
[1:48:12] I'm not criticizing you but you didn't and it's too late now.
[1:48:16] Yeah i know i know It's too late for the kids, right?
[1:48:19] And it could well be too late. I don't know if your, has your sister had like neurological workups to figure out the damage to her brain from the drugs or anything else like that?
[1:48:28] Of course not.
[1:48:29] Okay. So, so, I mean, I'm no doctor. Obviously, it's just a completely ridiculous amateur opinion. But, you know, it could be too late for your sister. And it certainly is too late for her children because they're no longer children.
[1:48:42] Yeah.
[1:48:43] So, get out. Like, what's keeping you?
[1:48:45] I think. Yeah. Yeah, I know. I'm just, I, well, I don't, I don't go there and I haven't gone, like, I just.
[1:48:53] Okay, but you're still there. You still talk to them. You still see them and you still ruminate.
[1:48:57] Yeah. Yeah. And the rumination gets worse if I, if I go visit them or something.
[1:49:03] So tell me you're not in there if you're still going to visit them. So what is the plus of this? What is the benefit?
[1:49:11] It's, it's not, you know, and I think all the years I've been inside too. Well, I think when my kids were younger and her kids were younger, I think like in my heart of hearts, I kind of just wanted them to have a relationship together. other so i would still and i wanted my my kids also know their grandparents and i know it's like it's was you know i just i wanted to kind of wish and hope upon hopes that we could like have that little family connection because as i was growing up i was not really really connected to my family members because i had family members like all like strewn across the united states and overseas okay so sorry i i need to interrupt this hang on.
[1:49:51] I need to interrupt.
[1:49:52] This massive.
[1:49:53] Wall of estrogen over.
[1:49:55] Empathy.
[1:49:55] All right. So let me ask you this. What does your husband think of you spending time with the mother who destroyed your sister, and probably wrecked most of your nephew's childhood?
[1:50:11] I think my husband is like, thinks it's, see, the funny thing is, well, not the funny thing, not funny at all um it's uh very serious but i think he um kind of thinks it's okay to go and visit her because you know she's getting older and then and now you know like i don't know it is what it is kind of a thing and he thinks like i don't think he has a problem with it i think he rather okay.
[1:50:42] So if both.
[1:50:42] Of you.
[1:50:43] Are fine with it then you're just going to have to live with the rumination we.
[1:50:46] Can't solve it yeah you're right because the rumination is.
[1:50:50] There's a danger here i haven't noticed right you ever have this thing at night maybe your husband's gone or something and you're alone in the house there's a thump downstairs can you go back to sleep without checking it out.
[1:51:03] Um, of course not. Yeah.
[1:51:05] You get up and you get your weapon, whatever it is, and you go downstairs with your heart pounding. Now, if you check the whole house and it's empty, you can go back to sleep, right?
[1:51:16] Yeah.
[1:51:17] Okay. So, you know, like you're in some creepy Anthony Perkins B&B and there's like branches scratching against the window. That's pretty scary, right?
[1:51:30] Yeah, of course.
[1:51:31] And then you see, oh, it's just branches scratching against the window. You go to sleep, right?
[1:51:37] Yeah.
[1:51:38] And so the reason we focus on things is because there's a danger there. Now, the danger is pretty clear. That this is a woman who destroyed your sister, half destroyed you, and half destroyed her grandchildren, right? And your father was in that too. Now, that's evil.
[1:52:04] Yeah.
[1:52:05] It's evil to turn your children over to older men who are losers and drug dealers. It's evil to leave your 15-year-old daughter alone with a guy who's 22 or 23. It's evil. Stone evil. It's evil to not give a shit about your 16-year-old daughter, who's gone missing probably on a drug bender, and to not do everything in your power to find her. Right?
[1:52:39] That's true.
[1:52:40] Okay, so this is all evil. Evil for your sister to whatever moments of coherence she had. And this is one of the reasons I asked, was she doing drugs when she was pregnant? So if she wasn't doing drugs when she was pregnant, she had, you know, eight months plus or seven months plus, depending on when she found out she was pregnant, of sobriety, right? So she could have gone to get help. She had you encouraging her to stay away from loser, drug dealer, danger boyfriend, and she decided, as you said, a week later to seek him out and go back. Now, she's still a kid. I get that. But she was 16, so she's allowed to drive. so she's on the brink of adulthood and she's starting to become responsible right yeah and she continued to do drugs, while raising children which is evil yeah it is evil it's evil, So you have a viper pit of evildoers, and you would... This is why I didn't understand the word enable. The fuck does that mean? They're just doing evil.
[1:53:45] Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think I meant it in the sense of my parents enabling...
[1:53:54] No, no. It's evildoing.
[1:53:56] It's general.
[1:53:57] But it's the wrong word, because it's a girly psych word for an immorality.
[1:54:02] Yeah, I know. know it's it's it's a word that's been used a lot late you know just no it's a word to avoid the word evil that's what the word exists to avoid the word yeah you're right yeah you're right that's amazing yeah it is though you're right you're completely completely right but it's a word that's used so much out there i know that's why i want you to stop using it because it's not helping you not not enabling parents it's evil parents yeah evil parenting and your.
[1:54:30] Your sister did drugs and raised children with a drug dealer, and there were times when she was sober, so she could have done better. She could have picked up the phone and called for help any time. She continued to do it, right? Your parents did not demand any better behavior in return for their money. Nobody went to the wall or even made a single phone call to protect those poor, innocent little boys, right?
[1:54:54] Yeah, all boys and girls. Okay.
[1:54:56] The three innocent little children.
[1:54:58] Yeah.
[1:54:59] And you're one of those people.
[1:55:01] Yeah, I know.
[1:55:04] You're one of those people. Now, you did not do direct evil, but you'd certainly fail to protect.
[1:55:11] Yeah, I could have done more. That's for sure. And maybe that's why.
[1:55:14] No, you didn't make one phone call to an expert or do one internet search on how to deal with this.
[1:55:20] I know.
[1:55:21] Now, that's something you're going to have to find a way to deal with.
[1:55:25] Yeah.
[1:55:26] Now, if it's like, well, she was beyond hope, nobody could help her. Well, of course, but you could have helped her because you certainly could have gotten custody, right? If you've got two drag addicts, somebody can get custody.
[1:55:36] Well, I don't think I would be, well, me personally, I don't think I'd be able to get custody of her kids.
[1:55:41] Why not?
[1:55:41] That probably wouldn't work out. I probably just, well, honestly, my home, I don't think it would be able to fit all of her kids and my kids. Okay, so you don't care that much because it's inconvenient. Yeah, I think I was, I'm not going to even try to defend myself.
[1:56:00] No, I'm not attacking you. I'm just looking at the facts. Now, your parents could have gotten custody.
[1:56:06] Right?
[1:56:06] Your parents could have gotten custody.
[1:56:08] Yeah, they could have. They had the house.
[1:56:09] They had the room.
[1:56:11] Exactly. They had the room, you know, and that's where the kids live now today. So they've been living there in that state. They perfectly had their own rooms, everything, you know, and everything was all nice and tidy and clean. Everything was perfect, you know. And they had my mom was not working, so they had a parent that could be there. See, with me, I wouldn't be able to take custody.
[1:56:29] Right, but your parents are terrible parents.
[1:56:32] But your parents are terrible parents they totally could have just taken custody and there's a lot of yeah you're right there's just a lot of other things they could have done too right okay so nobody.
[1:56:43] Really lifted much of a finger to protect these children.
[1:56:48] No, they thought that they could just do it. They could just do it like the way they were doing it. And. Okay.
[1:56:56] So you've got to stop. Sorry. You've got to stop wasting my life here. I get it.
[1:57:00] I get it.
[1:57:01] You already told me this a thousand times that they did what they thought was blah, blah, blah. Right. Okay. So, so that's just the facts. The facts was that, that there was not enough love for the children to protect them. And now the children are grown and the chance is gone. there was also not enough love for your sister to protect her before she finally fried her brain which might have happened yeah okay so that's the fact and i'm not i know this sounds critical i'm not i don't mean this in any critical way but no i i.
[1:57:32] Understand yeah i understand.
[1:57:34] Okay so you don't care that much so move on yeah.
[1:57:40] Well yeah i am now yeah you're right i think i needed i needed to hear that and you're right exactly i'm gonna just move.
[1:57:50] On what's the point now 25 years ago you tried nothing happened 20 years ago you didn't 15 years ago 10 years five you guys made little efforts and i'm sure you lectured her and nagged her and told her this that and none of it worked and you didn't get any help and you didn't get any expertise and let the children grow up with drug addict parents so you don't care that much okay so then what's the point of hanging around.
[1:58:13] Yeah well i don't know i'm not i i can't care more about her than she cares about herself either so there's.
[1:58:20] Well i don't know but i mean she's not doing it now and and she may be a lost cause i don't know but what do you what are you ruminating on, The fact that you didn't do anything for 20 years to help her children? Really? Okay. I mean, you went by and she didn't answer the door. Okay, so that was the limit of your involvement?
[1:58:46] Yeah.
[1:58:49] So, the rumination is you don't know why. And the reason you didn't help your sister is your parents did not want any professionals poking around the sick, fetid heart of this family.
[1:58:59] Yeah.
[1:59:00] And nobody wants the gardener to dig in the flower beds where the bodies are. And your parents did not want a professional saying, what the living fuck were you doing?
[1:59:12] Yeah, this is definitely true. I think that's what it is.
[1:59:15] Okay, so your parents and you, your parents and you, your parents in charge, you in tow, colluded to let your sister fall into the abyss and her children scramble on the edge of the abyss in order to not have the family secrets exposed.
[1:59:36] True.
[1:59:37] It's like an Aztec sacrifice to the gods of avoidance.
[1:59:43] Yeah, that's true.
[1:59:46] And that, I'm sure, is still something in your life. And that's why you were doing all the laughter shit at the beginning.
[1:59:53] Yeah.
[1:59:53] Because we were getting close to the bodies, and you're putting on this big joker show to draw me away run by your parents.
[2:00:01] Yeah, it's true.
[2:00:06] And i sympathize i do i i'm not coming down on you i'm not saying this is oh so bad so bad but this is the situation isn't it.
[2:00:15] Yep you got it you definitely you pinpointed that for sure words.
[2:00:23] So if your parents cause you to act badly, then what's the point of being around your remaining parent?
[2:00:37] I know.
[2:00:39] I mean, can you get your mother into family therapy now?
[2:00:45] Well, I guess, you know, I could always run it after. Yeah, I mean, maybe I can always see if, like, you know, trying to get my sister.
[2:00:59] No, your sister has to get, again, I'm no expert. but my amateur understanding is therapists don't deal with drug addicts while they're on the drugs. She has to get clean first and has to be clean for a while because otherwise she's used therapy to numb emotional pain for decades and therapy opens up emotional wounds and so she has to be sober for quite a while and she has to have a whole support system because the moment therapy starts poking around in those wounds, she's going to want to run back to the drugs and no therapist wants to be responsible for driving an addict back to drugs.
[2:01:32] Yeah, good point. Well, this is definitely a good conversation. I hope, if anything, I mean, I don't think there's a conclusion for me.
[2:01:46] No, the conclusion is you don't care that much. So stop pretending to. You don't want to accept that now that the disaster has happened and your sister's kids are grown and maybe she's fried beyond recognition, now you're sort of ruminating and you've just got to go back and say, how much did I care? Let's look at the empirical evidence, right? You're in your 40s. So how much do you care? Well, you didn't care enough to do much about it, and so let's not pretend that you do now, and this rumination is all just a way of avoiding that you have to confront why you didn't do more and why your parents didn't do more and the rumination is increasing because your father is dead which means that his pressure to not care is lifted and now it's just your mom so the ruminations are increasing.
[2:02:33] Yeah that's that is yeah that's exactly it but i think all right well as far as the rumination goes I think this has definitely helped lift them out of my head because now I'm just like, there's nothing else I can do. If I don't want to care about it, I mean, then I got to care about it and I got to do something. But I don't, yeah, I mean...
[2:02:55] Yeah, that's to me. Like if somebody does like, oh, I'm so overweight, I got to lose weight. And if somebody... says all of that and doesn't bother losing weight i'm like well then they don't want to lose weight they may say it but i only you can only judge by actions right and if you're 20 that's one thing but you're in your 40s right so so we just look at the actions how much have you cared well not enough to do a simple search or call one expert.
[2:03:18] Yeah so i just need to shut up that's what well.
[2:03:21] I think i think you need to really ruminate if you're going to ruminate i think you really need to peruminate on why right and maybe i'm right about the fact that your parents didn't want any family evils exposed and so they were willing to sacrifice your daughter in order to keep their secrets it's very common in families and but once you figure that out because you've got your own conscience to deal with right because you claim to care but you didn't act in in any way that was really going to help and you did for 25 years stuff that didn't work and so that's a conscience thing that you're going to have to figure out and if you have a susceptibility to obeying the corrupt commandments of evildoers, that's going to be something. You've got another 40 plus years on this planet and your kids are going to be around evildoers. So you're going to need to figure something out about your susceptibility to that. Rumination is never about the past. It's always about the future. Pain is never about the past. It's always about the future. And if there's something in you that has you susceptible to this kind of stuff, you need to stay safe.
[2:04:21] And you also need to teach your children because that susceptibility to silence, commandments of silence from evildoers and the sacrifice of others for the sake of keeping family secrets, that will have transmitted to your children 100%. And so you need to come up with a vaccine called accountability, honesty, and the confrontation with the conscience.
[2:04:41] And that will keep your children safe. And you, I think, going forward.
[2:04:45] I think that's what I need to do.
[2:04:47] All right. Have we got some good progress? Yes.
[2:04:51] Yeah, we definitely did. I feel like a little weight has lifted, but I still have to do what you said. It's about the future now. All right.
[2:04:59] Listen, I really appreciate the call. I absolutely appreciate your frankness. I hope that you recognize that everything I do is out of care and affection for you and your future and your children. And I really do appreciate your time today.
[2:05:13] I appreciate your time. Thank you so much, Stefan.
[2:05:15] Take care.
[2:05:16] Bye-bye. Bye.
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