0:00 - Introduction to Grandiosity
3:23 - Cultural and Religious Background
4:40 - Family Dynamics and Divorce
6:31 - Financial Entanglements
7:36 - Parental Influence and Mood Swings
10:26 - Childhood Experiences and Trauma
13:58 - The Father-Son Relationship
21:57 - Understanding Parental Sadism
23:57 - The Nature of Grandiosity
32:31 - Defining Grandiosity
38:44 - The Reality of Parental Abuse
52:17 - The Joy of Enlightenment
56:53 - The Path to Healing
57:57 - Conclusion and Moving Forward
In this in-depth conversation, Stefan engages with a caller who reflects on their lifelong experience with feelings of superiority and inherent grandiosity. The caller begins by admitting to a cultivated sense of disdain towards others, tracing it back to childhood experiences and family dynamics, particularly influenced by a tumultuous relationship with their parents. This initial exploration of feelings sets the stage for a profound examination of the caller's upbringing and psychological state.
The caller elaborates on their family background, identifying their father as a "last Catholic," who valued biblical teachings but was absent from organized religion. The father imparted biblical stories, creating a skewed foundation of moral instruction that was rooted more in fear than genuine faith. The caller's emotional landscape is shaped further by their mother's passive role in the household, described almost as a specter, underlining the visible dysfunction within the family unit. The father's abusive behavior, emotional neglect, and the mother's complicity provide a chaotic foundation from which the caller’s grandiosity emerges.
As the conversation unfolds, the caller discusses the divorce of their parents at age 15, detailing the conflicting narratives surrounding the separation. The father's infidelity and financial dominance are revealed to be key factors in the family dynamic. This discussion dives deep into the themes of power, wealth, and the complex interplay of familial loyalty versus personal wellbeing. The father’s emotional volatility and manipulation through financial status are recognized as central issues that contributed not only to the divorce but to the emotional scars that the caller carries.
Stefan probes into the psychological impact of such an upbringing, questioning how the father's manic-depressive tendencies and obsessive-compulsive behaviors created an unstable environment characterized by anger and fear. The conversation becomes a reflection on how the caller internalized their father’s abusive standards, leading to a distorted self-image empowered by a need to feel superior. The caller acknowledges that their academic and perceived physical achievements were both a shield and a weapon, utilized to mask underlying insecurities and fears about their worth.
The dynamic between the caller and their father crystallizes into a broader examination of grandiosity. Commonly viewed as an inflated sense of self, the caller provides personal insights into how this grandiosity is both a defensive mechanism against feelings of inadequacy and a manifestation of their father's unresolved psychological issues. Stefan articulately challenges the caller to confront the reality of their upbringing. He offers the perspective that true freedom lies in vulnerability and the ability to engage with others without the need to dominate or belittle them, an idea that resonates deeply with the caller.
As their conversation progresses, they explore the concept of grandiosity alongside a recognition of the damage it inflicts—not just on relationships but on one's self-concept. Stefan emphasizes that a pursuit of superiority built on others’ diminishment is ultimately hollow and disempowering. He encourages the caller to redefine success and fulfillment through genuine connection and empowerment of others rather than through the tyrannical measure of one's intelligence or accomplishments.
Toward the end of their dialogue, the caller begins to articulate a growing understanding of their own motivations while reflecting on how their upbringing has led them to feel both trapped in a cycle of power dynamics and desperate for authentic connection. Stefan provides insightful guidance on finding purpose and redefining self-worth through values that align with kindness and genuine achievement, particularly in terms of how knowledge and intelligence can be harnessed to uplift rather than oppress.
The conversation concludes on a note of cautious optimism, with the caller expressing a sense of clarity moving forward. The dialogue serves as a testament to the importance of understanding how dysfunctional family dynamics can manifest in adulthood, particularly in the forms of grandiosity and defensive behavior. Through honest reflection and the pursuit of personal growth, Stefan opens the door for the caller to reconstruct their identity and find a healthier path forward filled with authentic relationships and self-acceptance.
[0:00] So thanks very much for taking the time to chat um you had some issues or questions around the concept of grandiosity so i'll let you do the the intro speech and we'll see if we can make some sense of it.
[0:12] Uh yeah sure um i've spent most of my life with a very uh strong sense of superiority and sort of active disdain for everybody around me and I think that it was cultivated in me in childhood um it's kind of it's it's it's hard to talk about because it's kind of embarrassing.
[0:55] And it's an easy way to get people to get pissed off at you i guess but i mean it comes out in other ways and i i don't know it's it's it seemed it's it hasn't been as strong in me as it used to be but um it's it's still kind it still kind of bothers me uh i i was uh journaling pretty uh consistently uh for a few weeks up up until the end of march and then i just came up on something that just really really uh horrified me about myself and i just i i had to put it aside for a couple of weeks, um, just because it was, it was, it was, it was so frightening. Um, just a lot of anger, um, that seemed to be something that I didn't really have a lot of control over. Um, I feel like I'm trailing off into space right here. Sure. Absolutely.
[2:16] So can you tell me a little bit about your cultural or religious background?
[2:21] Sure. My dad, I guess, was sort of a last Catholic. He stopped going to church probably when he was a young adult, probably when he left the house. but uh he read the bible every day and um although when i was very young i didn't i didn't go to uh church daycare or anything but um we we we moved to switzerland when i was five and we spent a lot of time together um me and my dad my mother was i was i don't know doing other things a lot or something but how he would uh inculcate religion to me is we would he would talk about Bible stories to me at great length.
[3:23] So I guess that was really my main sort of religious instruction, although later I guess I started going to an Episcopalian church for a few years till I guess, I got a little older probably around 9 or 10 just I just couldn't keep up this sort of, I guess a lot of my faith at the time was motivated was really just fear and I just couldn't keep that up I couldn't keep being afraid of that, and I just couldn't maintain this sort of belief. And I felt a lot better after dropping it. But, I mean, it was kind of hard.
[4:14] Sure. Now I understand that. And you said that your mother kind of drifted through the conversation like a ghost, right? Because you said your mother...
[4:21] Okay. My mom is incredibly screwed up. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not really sure where to start with her.
[4:36] Well, let's talk about a couple of the basics. Your parents, are they still together?
[4:41] No, they're divorced.
[4:42] And when did they divorce? Sorry, how old were you when they divorced?
[4:45] I was 15.
[4:47] And what was the reason for the divorce, at least as it was communicated to you at the time?
[4:55] It was communicated to me in a lot of ways. and I picked up on some of the reasons and repressed some of them, and then there were other reasons that were put forth these conflicting stories they both had different, reasons for it dad claimed that my mom had been screwing everything with two legs and I know my dad had been, had an affair with a secretary and also the woman that he's married to now um um, But I mean, also, I mean, my dad just abused the hell out of both out of the whole family. So that I guess was sort of the major cause but mom put up with that forever. So you know, the real reason why she divorced him is absolutely because his career started getting screwed up. And I think she figured it was either now or never if she was going to get out with any money. So I think that's why she did it. I don't think it had anything at all to do with how we were treated, how she was treated at all. I think it was just totally money.
[6:15] So you mean that she was willing to put up with infidelity in return for a comfortable or monetary lifestyle?
[6:23] Oh, yeah. I think so. I think she's willing to put up with any sort of harm. I think she's comfortable with being abused. I don't think she likes it any other way, really.
[6:32] Right. But so for your mom, it was like infidelity plus money is good or at least tolerable. But infidelity without money or with a threat towards money is not. Yeah. Is that right?
[6:48] Well, yeah. And I mean, it wasn't like it was just a little bit of money. I mean, my dad was fantastically wealthy.
[6:56] Sorry, your dad was? Your dad was fantastic.
[6:59] Yeah.
[6:59] Okay.
[6:59] Yeah. In 1999, he would brag to me that he was making 20... Whoa. He was making $20,000 a day in cash and options for the company he was working for. Well, I mean, not working for, but running. In part.
[7:19] Right. Okay. So he was a real high flyer, right?
[7:23] Yeah. Not just a little bit.
[7:26] And i mean.
[7:27] Uh just by.
[7:27] The by it is it is a truism of course of life that everybody accepts but few people believe like they accept it intellectually but they don't believe it in their heart that money doesn't buy you happiness.
[7:37] Oh yeah it's it's funny right because uh i mean he he he has you know an american express black card which means that's one of these years he spent more than 250 000 in a single year and yet i mean right now he's deeply in debt and whatever and it just buys it just gets you nothing it's just kind of weird how he how he just made all this money just to lose every dime almost and.
[8:05] Would you say without going into details would you say that the method by which he earned his money was just or unjust and by that i don't mean criminal.
[8:14] Oh like oh unjust absolutely uh let's let's see i mean when when he was when he was working for uh, uh he did that for about 10 years i i think that uh he's probably more ethical i don't know it's really hard to tell but i mean i think i think the constraints that he was in kind of, kept him under control because i mean there were there were there were punishments for for i don't know uh breaking the law and stuff like that i mean did they take that kind of thing seriously, to a certain extent. Not as much as maybe many people would think, but to a certain extent. But when he was at this other place, I mean, he did make it after they forced him to resign, of course. Oh, yeah, I was the whistleblower. I knew what they were doing and all this stuff. But of course, I mean, he happily took the millions when they were defrauding their institutional clients and doing just massive insider trading.
[9:25] Yeah, I mean, my...
[9:27] That's how the company made its bones. Every single trader on the floor was trading ahead of the moves from the big clients.
[9:38] Right, right. I mean, this is a gross generalization, but, you know, most brokers... And I worked at a brokerage company as a programmer. A bunch of lying scumwads, frankly. I mean, it's a really, really filthy way to make a living.
[9:54] Well, yeah. And, I mean, it's funny because, you know, he said, you know, oh, I'm in the technology side of the business or whatever. And he made himself out to be this big technology guy. You know, but he doesn't even know how to type.
[10:10] Can I just ask you, I don't know if it's you or somebody else, But there's a fair amount of background crackling. Are you moving your microphone at all or moving around?
[10:17] Oh, yeah, sorry. I'm just sort of...
[10:19] Yeah, if you could just find a place for it and leave it there, that'd be great. Thanks.
[10:22] Yeah, sure.
[10:23] Oh, no problem. So he was, I mean, a high-flying guy.
[10:26] Do you know if he went through... Because this is not uncommon in these kinds of people. Did he go through mood swings so there'd be an up and then a crash?
[10:39] Um yeah yeah i'd say so yes very yes, and it's quite funny because i mean that's that's like who he was yeah i mean right or he would go through the manic.
[10:55] Episodes followed by these depressive episodes.
[10:58] Yeah people.
[10:59] Would just ride out the storms right as best they could.
[11:02] Uh yeah like uh like yesterday in the call-in show um where his his father would you know throw stuff around that that's what my dad would do sometimes uh he'd come back from a business trip on friday and um he would often be gone for the weekdays uh for a lot of my childhood i guess i mean that was just wonderful when he was gone just wonderful although i mean my mother was sort of like a living blob or something, just there to... Or like a plant, just there to photosynthesize from PBS on a couch. It's just bizarre. He'd come back on Friday and he'd be pissed off as hell. And of course, my mom would just accumulate all these catalogs and stuff and they just pile up high on the kitchen table and she'd throw her clothes on the floor and in her closet so he's and and he'd he'd come home and he'd get he'd get really mad and then he'd just like throw all the papers and stuff on the floor he'd go into the refrigerator for no reason and throw out all the food under the floor you know breaking glass and stuff and then he'd uh go into my room get pissed off and throw all my stuff on the floor and he'd go into my mom's room with her closet this closet was was like his obsession because she'd always leave it messy and, I don't know, it just seemed like this closet was his nemesis.
[12:27] So he used the form of material perfectionism as his bullying weapon of choice, is that right?
[12:34] Yeah, yeah, nothing was ever clean enough. You know, we'd have a sweep and stuff after meals and stuff, and you know, you do it for an hour. We'd have to clean for like an hour or so after every meal. meal and you know if there's a single crumb anywhere on the floor any like a speck of dust you know it's you're you're you're you're you're you're a piece of crap for not paying it well in harsher language than that you know you're you're the most worthless human being imaginable for missing a speck somewhere right so there's again.
[13:08] This is i'm i'm no clinician right so this is just nonsense amateur stuff but be aware of that but it would it would seem to me that there's a certain kind of manic depression and a certain kind of OCD or obsessive compulsive disorder that's floating around. And this is not to say that he's not responsible, right? But I'm just trying to sort of get a picture of this kind of stuff because grandiosity and these kinds of mood swings go hand in hand and that's why I asked about them.
[13:36] Yeah. Well, I think his relationship to me was, he wanted me to be something that he could brag about. Like, one of his favorite activities that he would tell me, oh, how we did this and how he would impress his business friends. Yeah.
[13:59] with it which seems kind of weird doesn't really have any friends so i mean the idea that, he would care about how how they thought of him is a little strange, but i mean i i guess that's who he was like like for example um well i mean this sort of stuff actually started in in my infancy uh i i was i was born um this sort.
[14:25] Of stuff and i just want want to make sure i understand which sort of stuff.
[14:28] Oh yeah i'm i'm going i'm getting into it uh so like he'd have me do um like when i when i was an infant i was uh born a little sickly not not super premature but i mean it wasn't great and um he the way he shared his impression of me and he thought this was a funny story you know he'd laugh um he'd say he said that when he saw me he thought I was a blue chicken and that's what he said. You know, oh my god my son is a blue chicken and he would laugh when telling the story and my mother was in the hospital. She had some sort of bad hemorrhage and the way he put it is she almost died and he rescued her by alerting the doctors that his wife was bleeding to death or whatever.
[15:19] Sorry to interrupt but I just want to make sure I understand the polarity here. Yeah. Is it fairly safe to assume, and tell me if I'm correct or not, is it fairly safe to assume that your father was fairly brutal in his insults towards other people, but was himself hypersensitive to insults?
[15:38] Um, yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. He, that was his way of dealing with people, I guess.
[15:46] Well, not exactly dealing. It's his way of bullying. Anyway, go on.
[15:51] So, so anyway, what was an infant, I get out of the hospital spending like a week in an incubator or whatever. And so one of the first things he does is he takes me swimming with him in like a lap pool. You know, the way he tells us, told the story is he would take me swimming and I would just sort of cling to him or hang on to the kickboard for dear life. And he would always tell the story as a joke, you know, as if it was funny. and he would smile and well uh what he'd take me out and he'd say and he described me as blue and shivering and he was afraid that i would die and so he rubbed me in a towel, convinced that i was i was dying or dead um and you know he didn't just do this once but many signs you know it's it's like and even if it's apocryphal or exaggerated you know a tall tale it's still pretty screwed up um but he wouldn't do stuff like that with me around are.
[17:05] You moving it at all.
[17:06] Oh yeah i'm just i just scratched my head i'm sorry okay no problem um so yeah he he liked doing that sort of sort of thing with me like when i was uh probably around five on he It would take me running for very long stretches, like seven or eight miles, up and downhill. I'd get, I mean, to drink, I would get one 12-ounce bottle of Gatorade in the middle of the thing. You know, I guess the workout, like every Saturday we'd do this. This was when we were living in Zurich.
[17:48] Sorry, just by the by. i mean this this just reminds me um of i mean there's some similarities but some significant differences between our fathers but when i was 16 i lived in africa with my father for a while and he took me he was a geologist so he walked for a living and uh he took me on a hike through mountains and it was the same thing like he would he would power because he just what he that's what he did was he hiked as a geologist and i wasn't as fit then as he was and uh i was just dragging in my ass after, you know, we would climb like 2,000 or 3,000 feet up these paths in a day. It's dying. And of course, it was Africa, so it's like 12 million degrees, and I was coming over from Canada, which wasn't, and it was just, and he did the same thing. He actually gave me a pebble to suck on and said, well, if you're thirsty, this will produce saliva. And it's just like, what the, you freak? And he would literally be like two or three hundred yards ahead of me because I would be getting tired and slowing down, right? He'd just power on ahead of me. Right, right.
[18:49] That's something my dad would do to, you know, let me know that.
[18:53] And you'd feel this real disapproval or embarrassment about your sort of lack of physical fitness or whatever relative to his, you know, amazing vanity body or whatever. Anyway, I just wanted to mention that sort of reminded something of my own. Go on.
[19:07] Well, like every Saturday from when I was five on, I guess, later, I guess, probably after my fifth birthday, is we'd run up about 200, like we'd go down a hill about three quarters of a mile to a big, big stair because, I mean, they're all because, you know, the area is kind of hilly. it's like a valley and then there's a lake so we'd go up about 200 stairs sometimes he'd make me run it up sometimes he'd let me walk it if it was raining and slippery because I mean he was afraid of slipping I guess then we'd run up a dirt road, kind of twisting around to get to the holland bod the public gym kind of thing and then I guess we'd take karate lessons, and then he'd have then he'd swim and he'd have me swim with him and we did this kind of weird thing where he would fight me underwater like you do karate with me underwater, and did that he would race me to swimming did.
[20:16] That activity of karate underwater did it hurt like did he.
[20:22] No not really okay but i mean i but i don't know i mean because uh i i kind of made it a uh, sort of a focus to to get used to pain because this was sort of uh i mean i kind of had to, right and i.
[20:41] I mean i i think i get a picture i mean certainly i have no doubt.
[20:45] Yeah sure rs and then after that there'd be more running right so yeah.
[20:49] No this is uh they're all All staggeringly abusive. I mean, of that, there's no question, particularly starting at the age of five. So what is it that you got out of this interaction with your father when you sort of look back on how it settled down within you? What was it? What is it that you got out of it in terms of your understanding of the nature and morals of your father?
[21:10] I think it was framed to me is that, I don't know, you. That this is what makes you a superior person.
[21:18] Son uh sorry but i understand i mean i understand that your dad was all about you know aim high and you know never give in and work hard and like he was manic right so uh so he's going to put this these ridiculous standards but of course he didn't have these same standards for himself as a father right so he's like well the important thing is that you run five miles and that's called perfection the important thing is not that i be a gentle kind and loving father that has nothing to do With perfection right Yeah.
[21:45] Well it's like I thought it was a little funny I mean like gentleness and kindness in my dad I mean it's ridiculous It's just funny.
[21:53] Well but it's not right.
[21:55] Yeah I mean it's not Like.
[21:58] Sorry to interrupt you And I know it's a little startling And I know you have a laughter defense Which obviously I understand and sympathize with But it's not funny at all I mean this is horrible right This is an absolutely nightmarish And horrible existence, I mean, this is like a fucking Russian gulag, right?
[22:18] Yeah, and I find Solzhenitsyn very, I like the gulag archipelago.
[22:28] Well, yeah, but it's horrible that you identify with that, right? I mean, it's...
[22:32] Yes, oh, yeah, I picked up on it very quickly.
[22:39] Oh, no, sorry, and I just want to go back for a second, because, and there's no correct or incorrect, it's just things that I'm noticing. But I had asked you What was your experience of this And what did you get out of it Oh.
[22:53] Horror I guess Like when I get home Hang on.
[22:58] Hang on I wasn't finished, it's okay I said what is your experience Of this and you said You replied it was portrayed In.
[23:07] The moment right now.
[23:08] Yeah just now, right I'm just pointing something out here Because we're trying to get a handle On the grandiosity side Yeah.
[23:17] I feel separated.
[23:18] Okay, just hang on one sec. Give me 30 seconds.
[23:20] Okay.
[23:21] Sure. So I had said, what did you get out of this? So what was your understanding of the nature and ethics of your father? And you said, it was portrayed to me as...
[23:34] Okay.
[23:35] And do you know why I stopped on that?
[23:38] Yeah, because those are, I guess, those are weasel words?
[23:43] No, it's not that they're weasel words. I believe you that it genuinely was portrayed to you as this, but I said, what is your experience? And you said it was portrayed to me as, which is actually somebody else's propaganda, right?
[23:56] Yeah.
[23:58] So when I asked you what your experience, and this is not a right or wrong, certainly no criticism, I'm just pointing out, right, because we're looking for clues as to how to unravel the grandiosity okay.
[24:05] I was very proud of it for a long time.
[24:07] Right okay so it was portrayed so your would and where would you say you are with your experience of this like um in terms of comparison to any kind of remotely decent or non-abusive parenting uh relative to the childhood that you really wish you could have had filled with you know fun and laughter and intimacy and and all that kind of stuff and love, which there was nothing. This is sadism, right? This is just a sadistic...
[24:32] Yeah, I find that completely unimaginable.
[24:36] Well, it's not completely unimaginable to you, I guarantee you that, because if it were, you would feel no pain, right?
[24:43] Yeah, I guess.
[24:45] Well, no, I mean, that's an important point, right? Because if it were completely unimaginable to you, then you would have no standard, right?
[24:55] Right.
[24:58] So, the fact that you have certain after effects from this nightmarish existence is because you do know that it is a, in your gut, you do know that it is a savage deviation and a nightmarish evil compared to any kind of reasonable or decent or loving parenting, which is not to say perfect parenting, but, I mean, this is off the charts, right?
[25:21] Yeah. So, and you know, I guess my mother said stuff about it, but saying things, what does it matter when she was aiding and abetting the whole process?
[25:37] Well, as you were listening to the call-in show yesterday, right?
[25:41] Yeah, yeah. And I just...
[25:44] Sorry, go ahead.
[25:45] I just felt so angry at my mother again, just because I think... I don't know. I think I hate her more than even my dad, because she knew that it was wrong.
[25:55] Well, and she gave your dad children, right? She found him.
[25:58] Yeah, not just one child, but she tried to have children immediately after me and miscarried twice, and then she had my sister years later.
[26:11] Right. Right. And then when she had enough, she left, right?
[26:15] Yeah.
[26:16] But you had to still stick around. Lunatic, right?
[26:19] That's right. That's right. Right. And, you know, she hugged my sister when she told us that she was getting divorced. And she started, you know, squirting out a little here. And I just hated her. I hated her. I hated her.
[26:32] No, I mean, I understand that. Now, could your father, when he was in these phases, I'm guessing that, at least for significant portions of his life, he could actually control his behavior, right?
[26:45] Sure, of course. If it was like, take your son to work day, you know, he was the most wonderful guy, you know, and at like a dinner meeting or something, you know, I'd be there and he'd be polite and stuff, you know, so it wasn't like...
[26:57] And the reason for that, I mean, you know why I asked that, which is basically that if your father had a biochemical disorder, then there would be trauma that you would need to deal with. Like if he became a biologically based schizophrenic, literally heard, literally became psychotic, you know, was carted off and had to be medicated with Thorazine or whatever. Like if he had a legitimate biochemical brain disorder, then you would still be traumatized, but there would not be the same sadistic intent, of course, right?
[27:27] Yeah.
[27:27] But since he can control his behavior, and he also knows how to portray a good father, right?
[27:33] Yeah.
[27:34] So he's completely responsible for what he did?
[27:38] Yeah.
[27:39] Okay, I mean, that's just an important thing to differentiate, right? Sure. He knew what a good dad was, and he could control his behavior and imitate, in a sense, a good dad, right? So he was in control of his behavior. Now, this is not to say maybe there was some biochemical basis to the manic depression, but he was able to control his behavior and to portray a good father in certain situations right.
[28:04] Yeah he thought he was doing much better than his father had done.
[28:10] Right but um uh when when it came to for instance like so he worked in the um securities industry, when he wanted to work in the securities industry no doubt he knew that there was certain knowledge that you had to attain, that you had to gain. And so he would go and take the securities course, he would go and study, and so on, right?
[28:30] Yes, he has two law degrees.
[28:32] Two law degrees. Okay, so he knows that if you want to become good at something, and you start from a position of no knowledge, that you have to go through a study process, right?
[28:45] Yes.
[28:46] And he admitted that his own father was not good, right?
[28:54] He wouldn't say that. He wouldn't say that, no. But he'd say that, I mean, he was, he attributed it to a leg problem that he, and his, in his work as a doctor, that he was too busy treating patients to spend too much time to him. And also he had a, he got drunk too often.
[29:11] Okay, but he would say that he himself, your father, did not have a great template about how to be a great father, right?
[29:19] No, you know, his parents beat him, beat the hell out of him.
[29:22] Okay, so I'm just trying to give you the, differentiations here, right, so that you can see, I hope, see your father a little more clearly So he knows that when he's in a state where he needs knowledge to achieve some end, to become to work in the securities industry or to get to become accredited as a lawyer, to pass the bar, that he, when he starts from a state of no knowledge in which is to achieve a gain, an end a goal, that he goes through a process of studying, right? Now, he also knows that he was not in a position of having great knowledge with regards to being a great father, right?
[30:01] Yeah.
[30:03] So, by his own logic, in terms of if you wish to achieve a goal, you should do some studying if you lack the knowledge beforehand, he clearly should have done some studying about what it means to be a great father, right? Because he became a father, and he certainly had time to prepare for that, right? He meets your mom, they date, they get engaged, they get married, they have kids. he's got years to prepare, right?
[30:23] Not just a few years. I mean, they met when they were 19, and my mother had me when she was 36.
[30:29] Okay, so they had like 27 years. Sorry, 17 years to deal with this, right?
[30:34] Yeah. Okay.
[30:36] So your father had 17 years to prepare for fatherhood, and he certainly knew because he was not a homeless guy. He actually had gone through a process of study to get his law degrees and his securities certification and so on, right? Right. And do you know if he ever pursued any knowledge about becoming a better parent?
[30:54] He might have read one book about it.
[30:57] So the effective answer is no, right?
[31:00] No. Yeah, of course not.
[31:01] Right. I mean, that's like me saying, well, I read, I read, you know, I read economics. Sure. sure okay so that's just something to understand that in in the areas in his life where he wished to achieve goals he did the studying and the work and the requisite necessary stuff in order to achieve those goals but when it came to being a parent he actively avoided knowledge right.
[31:24] Yes of course and he he would always say that being a father was the most important thing in his life that it was his highest value.
[31:33] I'm sorry that isn't that that is funny but it's really tragic, right? Because relative to the effort that he put into his career, into his education and so on, it was nothing, right?
[31:44] Yes. And my mother the same way. She put more effort into PBS than she put into me.
[31:51] And do you have a theory as to why they had children?
[31:56] He wanted them badly, I guess, to abuse. But mom didn't. I think she wanted to have children to deflect abuse from her.
[32:06] So you guys were like the biological punching bags, so to speak, right? Like, I'm angry and I can't get mad at people at work, so I'm going to come home and force-march my kid up 500 flights a day.
[32:17] Yeah, because Goldman would fire him if he did what he did, if he treated his employees like he treated me and how he treated my mother.
[32:26] All right. So, okay, now we can start to work towards how this virus passed along.
[32:32] Now, you had used the word grandiosity, and what is your working definition, whether it's instinctual or emotional or linguistic is fine. What is your working definition of the term grandiosity?
[32:44] Uh just thinking that you're somehow innately superior to everybody around you.
[32:50] Okay and what if you are is it's is it i mean let's say you're einstein right and you say.
[32:55] Yeah that's that's that's something that's that's uh you know got me into like false humility stuff like that and you know i was thinking a lot about this last night is that you know maybe maybe i i I'm not that fantastic and I'm just particularly good at avoiding suppression, just being defiant.
[33:17] I'm sorry, I didn't follow that last part at all. Could you try again?
[33:22] The way school works is, you know, they beat you down, they grind you into a paste, and I was just good at avoiding it.
[33:31] Good at avoiding being ground down into a paste?
[33:33] Yeah.
[33:34] Oh, no, but what does school have to do with it? I mean, your father was the one who ground you down into a paste, wasn't he?
[33:41] Yeah.
[33:42] Because you went to school, right?
[33:44] Yes.
[33:45] But you're...
[33:46] I mean...
[33:47] Right.
[33:50] Getting bad Mark, I mean, I would be dead. You know, getting an A- was horrible. It was like the house would explode.
[33:59] Well, sure, because you were no longer serving the narcissistic vanity of your father, right? Yeah. His ego, which was dependent upon manipulating and controlling others' opinions, would take a blow if he felt that somebody thought that you were somehow inferior, which would then make him feel somewhat inferior, which would provoke the narcissistic rage, right?
[34:23] Yeah, but I mean, this kind of pisses me off. I mean, if he was always saying that, you know, I was fantastic and all that, you know, why did he put me through school? I mean, they skipped me ahead a grade when I was younger. Why didn't he press to keep me skipped ahead? head? Why didn't he take me out of the entire system? I don't understand why they had to subject me to this nonsense for so long.
[34:49] Okay, so I think here we're getting to the core of the issue. So, if you have, and I understand this emotionally, right, but we have to sort of look at this philosophically. I mean, to me, that's always the real out of the room. So, you're saying, well, if this was the case, if they felt that I was superior or this or that, then why didn't they provide, you know, better services to me in terms of moving me ahead in school or this or that or the other, right?
[35:19] Yeah.
[35:20] And you feel outraged or frustrated about that? And do you genuinely believe that you don't understand why that was occurring?
[35:30] No, I think I know why. Why? Because it was frightening to them.
[35:34] What was?
[35:36] It was frightening to them.
[35:38] But sorry, what was?
[35:42] I think intelligence was frightening to them.
[35:48] Well, but your intelligence wouldn't necessarily have anything to do with whether you were ahead in school, unless I'm missing.
[35:56] Yeah, you're right. Okay, let's walk through this. Can you repeat the question?
[36:03] Sure. Well, I was sort of, you said you got frustrated, which I totally understand. And you said, I don't know why they didn't move me ahead more in school if education was such a value and I was so smart and this and that and the other, right?
[36:19] Yeah.
[36:21] And that would have been a benefit to you. Is that right?
[36:25] Yeah, absolutely.
[36:26] Well, how would that have benefited them?
[36:30] Not at all.
[36:32] So, I'm not sure.
[36:33] Well, I don't know. It might have benefited them, but I'm not really sure. I don't really understand them very well.
[36:40] Well, I think you do, but they don't want you to, right? So, I start from the premise that everybody's a genius and everybody's a philosopher, and certainly true with regards to our own families, right?
[36:52] Yes.
[36:53] So, I'll step you through a little bit here and we'll see if we can bang some fruit off the tree, so to speak.
[36:59] Okay.
[37:01] Okay, so let's just put some tentative labels on your parents, which is not to say that this is the sum total of their entire being or anything like that. But there are some things that we can definitely start with as some bedrock, right? So narcissistic and sadistic, because sadistic is narcissistic, right? But that you only existed as a way of providing your parents a sense of power, right?
[37:29] Yeah.
[37:30] So they have no interest in you as an individual. You can't abuse a child. You can't laugh at him and call him a blue chicken. You can't take him when he's five for running five miles, which is completely lunatic, right? I mean, that's like you and I having to run 25 miles. It's crazy.
[37:44] No, not five miles. More like eight, nine.
[37:47] Okay, that really doesn't matter.
[37:49] I mean, like, yeah, and on top of a bunch of other stuff. So, I mean, it was, like, crazy.
[37:53] Okay, now, you don't need to get behind him pushing the cart. I'm just starting here, right? So, don't worry. I'm sorry. Okay. So, you can't have empathy for a child that you're treating in that kind of manner, right? You can't have empathy for somebody that you're terrifying by being five times their size and throwing shit around a room, right?
[38:13] Well, he's six foot five, too, so.
[38:15] So again, you're behind pushing the cot. Just I got it right. Just trust me on this that I got that. That's a nightmare, right? You don't have to put more nightmare in. I get that. It's 100% nightmare. In fact, 150% nightmare. I have no problem with that. Okay. So, given that your parents are sadistic and narcissistic, if you really got that in your core, there would be no reason to be frustrated at the mystery of why they didn't do something for your benefit.
[38:44] I'm not saying that it wouldn't be painful, but it wouldn't be confusing.
[38:57] Okay.
[38:58] I mean, that's sort of like saying, why isn't my torturer giving me a massage? I mean, that would be a crazy question, right? I'm not saying you're crazy.
[39:09] Right?
[39:10] But that would be a question that wouldn't make much sense, right?
[39:14] Yeah.
[39:16] So, what's happening is that when we have sadistic and narcissistic parents, We want to see the truth about them because that will set us free of relating.
[39:27] Yes, I felt that very strongly.
[39:30] They don't want us to see the truth, right?
[39:33] No.
[39:33] And that's why, as I talk about in my book on truth, that's why they use principle and perfection and quality and cleanliness and excellence and all this other kind of crap. I just have high standards, so sue me, right?
[39:48] Yeah.
[39:49] So, and that's why they go to material or public kinds of show, right? I have two law degrees. I make $20,000 a day and crap like that, right? But you didn't want a dad who made $20,000 a day. You wanted a dad who'd give you a hug and talk to you like a reasonable human being, right?
[40:12] Well, he would, very rarely, if he maybe had three glasses of wine in him. Sometimes he could be pleasant, if there was somebody from outside the house at the table or something.
[40:25] Well, but that's not the definition of pleasant, right? That's the definition of...
[40:29] No, it's not.
[40:29] And it also is part of the sadism. So when sadistic parents are nice to you, it's part of the sadism. Because it says, I can be nice, I'm just not going to be nice. Which is humiliating, right?
[40:40] Right.
[40:41] Because if they genuinely had no capacity to be nice, we would just, as adults, learn to recalibrate our standards, right? And say, well, you know, I can't play catch with a guy who's got no arms, right? So that's, you know, the niceness is part of the sadism. Especially when they're nice to strangers, because then they're humiliating us even more. Because they're saying, well, I'm going to scare the shit out of you and brutalize you. But then when this Jehovah's Witness comes to the door, I'm going to laugh and have jokes, right? right so this jehovah's witness or whoever this guy selling door-to-door uh some cashiers some waitress they're infinitely more important to me and get much much better treatment from me than you do right which makes you feel like an adam right right so accepting and sorry and this stuff um again with all the caveats about me being an amateur right but um this stuff is what psychologists call character logic. It is the personality. It's not a defense anymore. As I write about in my novel, right, the defense is sometimes, and actually depressingly often, will overwhelm the character.
[41:51] The very personality they originally attempted, like, when you face a threat, you get defended, and the defense is there to the original personality, but they will overwhelm the original personality and replace it, right? It's like a coup, so to speak, like a military coup. and when that happens there's no return and and particularly if your father did not go through any kind of phase of empathetic development and this is very this is a brain development this occurs early on in childhood um really early on in infancy but particularly mid-infancy to toddlerhood where you get eye contact where you get mirroring where you know you smile and your mother smiled back, where you roll a ball and someone rolls it back and you interact and you are treated with empathy and you learn to really recognize the existence of other human beings in a fundamental emotional way. That is a process of brain development. That is a period of brain development. And if it is missed, if you go through significant trauma during that time, you just don't have the capacity anymore. You can mimic it for periods of time.
[42:55] There is no empathy in this household at all, period.
[42:58] Right. So, and you can mimic that for a short period of time, as you can see, right? But, and if you're willing to do the work, then you can actually learn to go through some of those difficulties, go through some of that trauma and learn to regrow some aspects of yourself. But it's kind of like there's a language phase, right? And if you're around two to three years old, if you miss that language phase, you never learn language very well. You can learn it to some degree, but it's just a part of the brain development. so if your father missed that and took no steps to deal with that later on in life, then there's going to be no part of him that empathizes in fact empathy is going to enrage him because it's going to bring back all the early trauma.
[43:40] Oh yeah that makes him so angry.
[43:43] Yeah because he's going to perceive it as pitying he's going to perceive it as putting him down and he's going to try and level up by blowing up in rage right.
[43:51] Right that's like the worst kind of weakness to him.
[43:56] Right, because that's what he so desperately needed and didn't get, and it exposes his vulnerability, and any time he was vulnerable with his parents, he would get attacked, so vulnerability equals attack, he preemptively strikes by attacking first. I mean, this is all very dense and complex stuff, but the reality is, that is his personality, certainly by now. After you've abused children, there's no coming back for you as a human being. There's no coming back. I don't mean like you get mad and you yell at your kid and then you apologize, right? Or maybe you spank your kid once and then you go, well, that really is not a good way to do it. I'm going to find other ways. I'm not talking about being perfect. But if you systematically and sadistically torture a child, there's no restitution that is possible. And where restitution is impossible, forgiveness or an amelioration of the problem is impossible. Now, the grandiosity was, you say, this feeling that you are superior to everyone else. What is the definition of that superiority? I mean, we understand that for your dad, it was accomplishment and money, right? Education, accomplishment, money, all the outlets show of superiority. And what is it for you?
[45:05] I guess for me, it was academic achievements. and when i was younger well actually no not not really even when i was younger but i guess physical and sexual achievement too okay.
[45:19] So getting good grades and um being a man.
[45:23] Yeah not not just getting good grades but just being uh i wanted to be uh crushingly more intelligent than everybody else around me okay.
[45:33] And what what do you mean by crushingly that's an interesting.
[45:36] Just overpoweringly, just no more than they do in every single conceivable category. Just be so much, or just to cultivate that appearance even.
[45:55] Okay, but for the purpose of what? Like, what would that do for you?
[46:00] It would ward off attack.
[46:02] Attack well it wouldn't ward off attack because it is an attack right because you you didn't want to be intelligent or learn things in order to generate a love of knowledge in other people right you you want no absolutely not yeah no no yeah.
[46:17] No i wanted to do it so that other people would feel small.
[46:20] Okay and what did that ward off so if you were unable to achieve that what what What feelings arose in you?
[46:31] Just kind of nasty anger.
[46:41] Okay, and so if you were unable, like if you came across somebody who had five PhDs from Harvard or whatever, and they started lecturing you.
[46:50] Then I, well, I'd charm them, I think. I think I'd avoid getting into it. Yeah, I'd avoid getting up with them.
[46:58] Is that right?
[47:00] Yeah, I would.
[47:01] Yeah, we smart people.
[47:02] Yeah with with my ex with my ex's father you know he's he's he's a top top uh law professor uh at NYU like we we could talk for hours you know I managed to get him to go from I'm going to kill you to uh you know hugging me and loving me and thinking I'm the you know the like, the brightest person in Brooklyn you know okay.
[47:26] So you feel that this is a kind of power and I'm not saying that this is all what you feel or believe, but you believe this is a kind of power.
[47:33] Right?
[47:34] Now, do you realize the exact opposite of power deep down? I mean, I don't know if you've explored that aspect in yourself. Let me ask you a simple question if that's not clear. Who's more free, the prison guard or the prisoner?
[47:47] Excuse me? One of the words was garbled.
[47:50] Sure. Who is more free, the prison guard or the prisoner?
[47:57] The prisoner.
[47:58] How so?
[48:01] Because the prison guard has to... I don't know. It seems like his behavior is more restricted.
[48:11] Well, I don't think that his behavior... And look, I mean, this is why I say everybody's a genius.
[48:15] This is just my first, you know...
[48:19] I mean, you've perfectly got the right answer, and I bet you you know exactly why. This is that blink thing, you know, where you process a huge amount amazingly quickly, And you are obviously a very intelligent and very verbally skilled person. So you got the answer right away. Then it's tough sometimes to sift through how we got there, right?
[48:36] Yeah.
[48:38] Okay. Well, you're absolutely right that the prisoner is more free than the prison guard. And I can either step you through the answer, but I don't want this call to go on too long because we have lives to lead. But I'll just give you the answer as I see it. I'm not saying this is the answer. Okay. The reason that the prisoner is more free than the prison guard is that the prisoner does not have to lie to himself. Because if you're thrown in prison unjustly, you can at least sit in the moral truth of your situation. You don't have to propagandize or mythologize your situation, right? But if you are a prison guard, you actually and actively have to believe that the prisoner is evil and you are virtuous and you are standing tall for justice and these guys are animals and scum and this and that and the other, right? So the prisoner at least can be free in his own mind, but the prison guard has to enter this distorted funhouse kaleidoscope mirror of justification and moral falsehood, right?
[49:38] Yeah.
[49:39] So he's not even free in his own mind. And of course, he's standing around guarding the prisoner all the time. but the prisoner at least can remain free in his own mind right correct so the reason that i was bringing this story up is because you said that you wanted to to dominate other people and so on right by by crushing them with your brilliance right yeah but they're more free even if that works even if they bow down before you or whatever and worship your godlike intelligence they're still much more free than you because you have to pretend that you are superior when you're actually dependent upon other people's approval and of sequence right that's not being free yes so you have to remind yourself that you're superior and that you're free and that you're one of these nichian hyperborean gods when in fact you're enslaved to the good opinions of others right yeah and and if.
[50:32] Those opinions evaporate it's just i die you know.
[50:34] Yeah yeah so and and the worst thing is the worst thing is that you're not even enslaved to the good opinions of good people because i am i mean i i you know my i love my wife to death and if she ever thinks that i'm doing something wrong i'm crushed right and we examine it we explore it she's always right so that's good right there's nothing wrong handed upon the good opinions of good people because they can watch your back but not good.
[50:58] People but unspeakably evil people Well.
[51:01] I think unspeakably evil is another grandiose term, because I'm not saying that. I mean, that's just in my mind. But what should it be is around weak people who've also been traumatized in their childhoods.
[51:15] Yeah, right.
[51:16] Because a good and decent person who has any kind of caring about you would call you on your grandiosity. Why? Because it's not going to make you happy, right? And a good person who cares about you would be interested in your continued happiness, right? And would not want you to be enslaved to the positive opinions of weak and dependent people, right? Because that makes you kind of a little dictator, and it means that you can't be intimate, you can't be vulnerable, you can't be open, you can't be wise, and you can't experience the greatest joy in the world. And the greatest joy in the world is using your intelligence to light up other people's brains, not to put them down. Right?
[51:56] Right.
[51:57] So, somebody who really cares about you, wants you to be happy, would say, the path that you're taking, while it might give you immediate relief from anxiety and trauma and history and so on, is keeping you barred, is an iron insurmountable wall between you and the greatest joys in life.
[52:18] vulnerability openness honesty wisdom and and the joy of using your obvious gifts to, light the world to inspire knowledge and the desire for truth in others not to use it as a kind of vanity tool for propping yourself up in a false self kind of way but to use that energy and that intelligence and those linguistic skill and to judge your success not by whether other people view you as smarter, but by whether other people view themselves as smarter after interacting with you.
[53:01] That's the real crack, so to speak, in life. And people always ask me, how is it that you can stay so positive in what it is that you do? And that's because I know when they ask that question, they have not tasted the truly cosmic joy of lighting up somebody else's mind, of getting them to realize just how brilliant they are and just how wise they are deep down. that is a that is unbelievably joyful experience and i mean to be frank that's what i want for you you have these incredible gifts you obviously come from a very intelligent family uh tragically flawed and dependent upon others and tragically uh dictatorial and brutal and weak right because the flip side of grandiosity is insecurity that vanity and insecurity are the the superstructures built on each other around a void of a true self in the middle but what i want for you is the joy Joy that comes from using your gifts to light other people's minds up, to get other people excited about the truth.
[53:54] Because that's the self-generating and self-sustaining process that actually heals and brightens up the world, right? You walking around or your dad walking around dominating weak people with your supposed brilliance does not light up the world, right? And that keeps a fundamental joy out of your life, away from you, that is, oh man, if I could give you five seconds of that joy. If I could wire that into people's brains, the joy of lighting up other people's minds and getting them excited about wisdom and truth and philosophy and knowledge and virtue, this sort of paltry satisfaction and immediate anxiety avoidance that comes from dominating other people would be completely unappealing. It would be gross compared to that joy, if that makes sense.
[54:46] Yeah it makes a lot of sense.
[54:50] And there's a surrender to i mean ego is not about dominance in my opinion this is just my, nonsense opinion so i take it for what it's worth right but but but ego is about surrendering to to the truth right aligning yourself with the truth being a vessel for the truth this all sounds ridiculous and quasi-mystical but there it is right that um you want to be a doctor not to to make other people stupid about medicine, but to make them excited and interested and able to achieve their own health, right? You want to be a nutritionist so that other people become healthy in terms of their eating choices. You don't want to be a nutritionist so you can say, well, I eat really well and you people eat like crap, but never tell them how to eat better, right?
[55:31] Right.
[55:32] You want to be a nutritionist who shows the effects of healthy eating and who also gets other people excited about eating better and more healthy and so on. And all of that joy is nothing compared to the joy of lighting people up about truth and virtue and philosophy.
[55:47] And if you align yourself toward that goal, right, and if you say, I am going to use my gifts in the service of a brilliant species that is tragically crushed by history and institutions and the family, the church, the state, I am going to align my gifts to the service of freeing humanity, of lighting up the minds of humanity, of expanding the horizons of humanity. vanity there's nothing that is going to make you happier and there's nothing that's going to bring more love and joy into your life than that and i want that for you and you certainly have the gifts to be able to achieve it i think everybody does but you in particular are closer because of your intelligence that's innate in language skills and so on and you're closer to tapping into that again i think everybody's a genius and everyone's a philosopher but i think that what you want you have to have you have to have a carrot on the other side of dealing with grandiosity, right? Because it's going to be painful and it's going to be destabilizing. What is the carrot on the other side? The carrot on the other side is the joy.
[56:46] Of lighting up people, the joy of bringing wisdom and joy to people's life, and the love that that generates in the world towards you, right?
[56:53] It's love in your personal relationships, it's a wonderful and happy marriage, it's being a noble and just and beautiful father whose children are going to worship you in the right way and for healthy reasons, and it's going to be the The satisfaction at the end of the day that comes from turning on 50 lights or 5 lights or 1 light in the world, right?
[57:17] Not leaving a trail of people who feel smaller after you have passed through their lives, who feel diminished, right? Who feel weaker, who feel less, who feel like... Because that's a little bit like turning into your dad, which you don't want to do, right?
[57:32] No.
[57:32] Deep down, that would be the last thing that you'd want to do is make people feel like you did when your dad was around, right?
[57:39] Right.
[57:42] That's it for my speechifying. I just wanted to, because why would you want to deal with this? I'm just saying that on the other side is a love and a joyful existence. And I'm not saying you don't experience joy now and so on, but this is beyond what you can think of before you taste it.
[57:58] And I know because I lived on the other side for a long time and now I live on this side. and oh man it's a beautiful thing.
[58:10] Thank you this was lovely.
[58:11] Well i'm glad that it was helpful um i know i didn't give you anything particularly practical to work on but i think the first thing to do is to figure out what the goal is why would you want to climb over this barbed wire and i hope that i've given you some sense to the beauty that's on the other side how are you feeling now at the end of this conversation.
[58:30] I'm feeling a bit clearer.
[58:36] Good okay well i'll guess i'll try and quit while i'm ahead um and and if you want to do a follow-up you can model this for a bit if you want to do a follow-up i'm more than happy but i can give you some more practical ways to achieve it but i just wanted to give you a sense of the purpose rather than the like if you if you gave if you give a man a why says nietzsche he can bear almost any how right and and the problem is with with challenging these demons within us that sometimes we really don't have a sense of the why and when the why fades so does the how and the means and the goal and the desire and the steps and so on so if you keep that, glory in your sights then you can get there and you will.
[59:18] Sure that makes a lot of sense.
[59:20] Okay well listen again all the sympathy in the world this was a truly nightmarish existence that you grew up in um obviously you know what i would say with With regards to your family, I'm not sure exactly what your circumstances are with them, but these are not people that I would have in my life.
[59:35] No, I've broken with them, yeah.
[59:37] Okay, good. Well, now you can start to build a new world out of the crater, and I hope that you will. Thanks so much.
[59:46] Thank you.
[59:47] Keep me posted about how it goes.
[59:49] Okay, have a nice day.
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