0:00 - Introduction
5:20 - Meeting and Courtship
8:32 - Wife's Perspective on Meeting
12:28 - Recognizing the Angry Tone
19:11 - Childhood Memories: Mother
29:32 - Cutting Off Relationship with Mother
30:50 - Ending First Marriage
34:42 - Wife's Generosity and Kindness
37:58 - Analysis of Marrying Ex-Wife
39:10 - Ex-Wife's Childhood Impact
44:33 - Early Years and Meeting Her
59:11 - 17 Years of Chaos and Manipulation
1:12:27 - Enforcing Rules and Parental Choices
1:18:34 - Motivation and Real Intentions
1:33:45 - Withholding Essential Information
1:39:26 - Communication Breakdown and Reconciliation
1:41:47 - Confronting Personal Responsibility
1:46:16 - Heartfelt Conversations and Self-Loathing
1:51:19 - Conflicts and Miscommunication
1:53:52 - Intention vs. Perception in Conflicts
1:55:47 - Reparenting Dynamics and Tension
1:58:03 - Processing Failure and Burden
1:59:04 - Grieving and Helplessness
2:01:36 - Taking Action and Seeking Help
2:07:11 - Facing the Truth
2:17:45 - Uncovering the Daughter's Situation
2:20:29 - Confronting the Issues
2:24:08 - Preparing for Reconnection
2:28:28 - Seeking Solutions without Escalation
2:31:54 - Breaking Old Patterns
2:34:18 - Reflecting on Personal Growth
In this conversation, we explore a caller's struggles with managing their tendency to raise their voice excessively. The caller opens up about potential causes of this behavior, including traits of autism and traumatic childhood experiences. Through the caller's sharing, we gain insights into their emotional detachment despite delving into difficult topics. The caller's spouse also offers their perspective on the relationship, emphasizing the importance of direct communication and patience that they appreciate.
Further into the discussion, the caller reveals details about their tumultuous past, particularly their challenging relationship with a mother they perceive as evil and neglectful. They recount experiences of their mother's attempts to sabotage their first marriage, shedding light on deep-seated emotions and past traumas. The conversation prompts self-reflection as the caller explores their reasons for past decisions, such as marrying their ex-wife out of loneliness and a desire to break free from their controlling mother.
The focus shifts to another caller's turbulent 17-year marriage marked by troubling behaviors from their ex-wife, including threats of suicide and unfounded accusations. The caller shares regrets about custody arrangements post-divorce and the challenges faced in enforcing agreements, especially in a foreign country. Through this exchange, the complexities of co-parenting and the necessity of seeking legal counsel in difficult situations come to light.
In a poignant moment, a husband and wife seek guidance on navigating the emotional aftermath of a virtual loss concerning their daughter. The conversation delves into the husband's frustration at the inability to contact their daughter and the wife's hesitance due to personal reasons. Stefan encourages open communication and cautions the husband on seeking professional help to establish a reconnection thoughtfully and with realistic expectations.
Lastly, Stefan addresses the complexities of rebuilding trust with adult children who have been manipulated against a parent by another. He underscores the importance of seeking expert advice and prioritizing the well-being of the children in such situations. Stefan stresses the significance of honesty, confronting family dysfunctions, and fostering authentic relationships. The conversation concludes with reflections on past interactions and the value of open communication in navigating complex family dynamics.
[0:00] Lay it on me, friends. How can I best help?
[0:03] Okay. I guess, should I start by reading you what I wrote?
[0:06] That sounds good.
[0:09] Okay. I need some tools to deal with ease to which I raise the volume of my voice when I talk with others. My wife says it sounds like I'm angry, but when I'm aware of this volume increase afterwards, I don't really feel angry. angry sometimes it's when i'm passionate or excited about a subject and other times it's out of frustration or my inability to get others to understand me i don't know if there's a single cause and i'm not even aware if of it at the start and often not for a while when it's happening but i do know that i would like to stop doing it so people don't want because people don't really want to be around someone who sounds angry. My wife believes, as I do now, that I may have some traits of autism. I do take most things people say literally and often don't pick up on nonverbal communication skills from communication from others. But even if this is true, that some of its cause is autism or something from my childhood, that doesn't directly present a solution to help me modify my behavior at this time.
[1:20] Possibly related is that I kind of moralize things. For instance, if a salesman says something to get a sale and I later find out it's not true, I will consider him a liar and won't want to deal with him further. I listened to your show the other day about shyness and I drew a parallel to my behavior that I've never considered. considered, and that is that it's kind of arrogant of me to expect others to want to understand me or even listen to me. How do I get rid of this attitude and manifestations in my communication? Are there things, anything and techniques that I can start doing now to help train myself in these matters?
[2:02] Wow. It's a very blunt and honest email, which I certainly appreciate. And could you guys give me a little bit of the history of your relationship?
[2:11] Yeah. Well, let's see. We've been married. We first started dating in 2018, and we've been married since 2020. 2020 yeah 2020 um and uh this is our second marriage for both of us um um i'm in my early 60s uh and she's in her uh mid 50s um and uh let's see what what else would you like to know uh.
[2:45] Do you guys have any kids i mean not.
[2:47] Together i assume but we both have yeah not together it's a miracle right yeah we both have kids from previous marriages though okay and we were both you know single for for quite a while i was single for i guess 11 years before we met and she was five years got.
[3:06] It okay and tell me a little bit about how you met and how the attraction grew.
[3:12] Sure. Well, we met on an app. One of her young co-workers made her profile without her knowing it. And then I was starting to talk with her. And then I said, OK, I'd like to take you out for coffee. And then thus, she got involved and I got to meet her. um and then uh i immediately you know after meeting that one time i i'd already had a trip planned so i was gone for like two and a half three months but then we communicated uh quite a bit uh while i was traveling um and then when i got back we started dating um and we dated for i I guess, nine months, but then she had to, uh, uh, move to a different country.
[3:58] And so before that we stopped dating. She wanted to stop dating cause she had a lot she was dealing with at the time, but I kept in touch. Um, cause I thought she was a pretty special person, um, unique from my perspective. And so I kept in touch just as friends to know her along the line and, you know, a little bit in the back of my head maybe someday something would happen and then uh about what was that about a year or more later i was going to change countries and i knew the situation you know where she was in and i said okay well you know maybe you want to come with me and we had several long discussions about it and life goals and stuff like that. And he said, sure, why not? So we both moved to this new country just together without knowing anybody here. And a couple of months later, we went to the states where I'm from and we got married and came back here and we've been doing great except for my anger issues ever since.
[5:08] That is both very enlightening, and it's enlightening in what you didn't say. Okay. Do you remember the question?
[5:17] Uh, maybe the, uh, Oh, what I liked about her.
[5:21] Yeah. See, you gave me all of the technical facts and I feel like I'm following a GPS drone around the world or something like that. And so you gave me all of the technical facts, which are completely irrelevant. And you didn't say anything about the emotions or the feelings or the passions other than she was a special person, but sorry. I mean, I'm not criticizing. I'm just sort of pointing that out.
[5:42] Understand. This is the way he's talking.
[5:44] Right, right, right. right yeah i know it's a it's a it's a lot of facts i really it's a lot of facts i i.
[5:49] Appreciate that yeah yeah okay all right okay so on our very first meeting um how would i say it um, well you know kind i i call you my brother from a different mother we have very similar background in many respects i've been an animal to.
[6:07] Hear that well.
[6:08] I have i have you know we'll not get into the mom issues yet but um oh we will but not yet yes okay i played i did model railroading volleyball startup entrepreneurs software engineering all this kind of stuff i've been an anarchist since the mid 80s and so in our first conversation i did something that i don't often do and i don't know even remember how i got on the subject but i presented some you know government ideas and she was actually receptive and tell me more and i was like kind of flabbergasted by that you know um and so that made me want to know more and then in our conversations um.
[6:50] I found that she had a perception of people and things that I clearly didn't have. And it was, you know, admirable and enlightening. And then also in our conversations, you know, I learned about how she raised her son. And it was just fabulous. And I really admired what she did. Because even though she'd only been divorced for about five years, she'd, you know, been and kind of on her own for quite a while with him. And so just many things, I just started admiring about her and wanting to know more. And the more I learned, the more it amazed me, you know, what kind of person she was. And then also that I could talk to her without inhibitions and tell her, you know, my strange, weird ideas about the world around us and where it was going. And even though a lot of it was completely new to her, it didn't seem to, you know, scare her off and she wanted to understand and things like that. And so I thought that was a pretty unique aspect of her. So I guess those things, you know, that's a little bit of it.
[8:06] Okay, got it. And sorry, this is to your wife from your perspective. How was the meeting and courtship? And you can use emotional language. I won't faint.
[8:16] Okay. Yeah, he's asking you, how was it from your perspective? From your perspective, how was meeting you? You? Oh, okay. Okay. First of all, nice meeting you.
[8:31] You too.
[8:32] Yeah, and because, you know, he, yeah, okay. And thanks for, you know, talking with us. Well, the first attraction is he knew at that moment that the first meeting, he knew a lot of things that normal people is not interested in. thing and he talking about something government or something and very unique because I never heard about that things and even maybe somebody thinking about I don't like government they really talk speak out but he speak out so loudly and he talking a lot long time so So I like it. And another one is he's, when he talking something, we talking about some topic, he talking very directly. I don't need to worry about what is the meaning behind the sentence or behind the words. I don't need to think about that. He's talking very direct, very honest, right? Very frankly speaking. Of course, this is a good sign, but I found out, I found another people thinking it too aggressive.
[10:01] The way he's speaking is too aggressive and too direct. They don't like it, but I like it because it's efficient. When we communicate, we just speak out what you're thinking exactly, and we understand quickly. I like that part. And how can I say? And yeah. And another thing is he can, how can I say? he listened to me that my past and what i'm feeling he listened to me very okay i'll say patiently and you know often we talk when we're talking or discuss we often is just three hours five hours you know who cares you know he talking keep talking and keep discussing about very the point of a core of the contents. You know, I like that kind of he's patient, that kind of things. And another thing that I like is I heard that he raised up his child, his son by himself about 10 years. Yeah, 10 years, 12 years. And he also take care of his ex-wife. You know, he was very responsible. responsible he take he want to be a responsible man and he did everything everything He can do.
[11:27] It was very impressive to me Because for example, my ex was not that kind of responsible man You know, I I met a lot of men is not responsible, Person so it was very impressive yeah, and And, yeah, it was like that. I think that was the most impressive thing that I felt when I met him the first time.
[11:54] Got it. Okay. I appreciate that. I appreciate that. Thank you. And you really took quite the gamble. And I guess, I mean, you guys have known each other for quite some time, but to move to the new country together. Yes. That's cool. That's very exciting. Very exciting. And so this is to your wife. When did you first notice the angry tone? How should we refer to it? I don't want to be unfair. How should we refer to this issue that you want to discuss?
[12:28] Guess um it's not unfair to say angry tone it's it's how she hears it and i can't really object to that when i think back on it right to just it sounds like an angry tone even if i don't feel angry or not so i don't have a problem with you referring to it bad tone or something okay angry have you ever when did you first notice i'm.
[12:52] Sorry go ahead.
[12:54] Uh, uh, normally when he talking, what he liked, it's no problem. His tone or, you know, words, vocabulary though. Okay. But when he find out, uh, I speak out something that opposite of he thinking, or he don't like, then he became very hurry in hurry and became, you know, Even the speed of speaking is faster. And what is that? The tone became like, accuse me or attack me. You know, like she want to defense me like that. So he, or he was, when I'm talking about this opposite opinion from him, when he was a concentrate doing something and I'm suddenly asking him and also he became torn became like that this is uh you know my observation after observation find out when he became like that yeah and he didn't know he he said no I'm not angry but it literally I became like a, be attacked that kind of feeling I don't know how how to describe in English is that correct Like be attacked. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[14:21] Now, so there's the tone, and then there's the words, there's the language.
[14:26] Yes.
[14:27] So what is the words, or what are the words that he says that have you feel attacked? Yes. Like if I was just reading, like somebody wrote down what he said, right?
[14:41] Okay.
[14:42] So what would people hear? What would people read from what he says?
[14:46] We found out one word that he usually uses when he questions something. For example, outside is very hot. So I want to go out, buy some butter. and normally we normally I don't want to go to in this you know strong sun you know so hot then we normally say is that okay the outside is too hot why don't you go out later you know something like that right I don't feel any attacked or aggressive something but he said he talked me he speak out the one sentence first sentence is What are you going on now? You know, something like that.
[15:39] Okay.
[15:40] Usually he cannot understand or he wants to speak out some, you know, opposite opinion on me. And he just speak out. He usually using why this one. Yeah, that's what we've identified. Why you have to do that?
[16:00] Okay. So there's no... Sorry to interrupt. So there's no... He doesn't call you names or any sort of hostile stuff like that. It's really all just tone, not content or not the actual words. It's the tone. Is that right?
[16:16] I've never called you a name. No. No. Okay.
[16:22] Got it. Okay, so I guess the question is, this is to your husband, let's talk childhood.
[16:34] Okay, let's see. So I'll break it into three parts. My mom, my dad, my sister, I guess is what I was thinking. So my mom, my earliest remembrance of her is for the most part of, you know, So she stayed at home until I was about five. And I remember the one birthday party I ever had when I was about four. But then when I was, the memory after that, because we moved at that time, so I can picture where we were at. When I was six, it was, I could do all these chores around the house she would like me to do, maybe 15 chores. And if I didn't do one chore or I didn't do it the way she wanted, then I could go to hell. You know, um, there was, there was no, there was no way to actually please her. Um, I also remember that, um, she, uh, well, she would get physical with me, um, either directly or she would, you know, when your dad gets home and then my dad would get home and, you know, do what she asked. um okay so that's all very vague get difficult do.
[17:52] What she asked what actually happened when.
[17:54] You were sure so um i remember you know going into the bathroom and looking in the mirror and seeing handprints on my back um so as you and then with my dad it would usually you know a whipping with With the belt on the butt?
[18:11] Oh, gosh.
[18:13] But, you know, I can't.
[18:14] No, no, don't, don't, no, don't, don't. Let me have my moment of sympathy. Okay. Okay, for me to have some sympathy for you.
[18:20] Sure.
[18:21] But it's fine, but no, it's fine. No, no, just that's really, it's appalling. That's absolutely, I mean, it's certainly worse than I got it in many ways. And I'm so sorry. I mean, being beaten with belts, being slapped across the face to the point where there are human imprints on your flesh. That's brutal and just awful. I'm so sorry.
[18:43] Thank you.
[18:45] And then you'd have to cover it up, I would assume, at times. I mean, did you go to school?
[18:48] No, no, not the face. Only my back, I said.
[18:51] I know, but you had handprints on your face, you said. Did they fade? No, I said back. Oh, back. My apologies. My apologies. Okay.
[18:57] That's why I'd have to go in the bathroom and look in the mirror because I felt it. So what happened kind of thing.
[19:02] All right. Now, you know you did a little laugh there, right?
[19:05] I did what?
[19:06] A little laugh. You laughed a little about it.
[19:11] Yeah. And then, yeah, I do. I do remember one time, I think it was about seven, just because of where we live. You know, I got one of those lectures of, you know, wait till your dad gets home. And so I I went into the bedroom and I hid under the covers with my head the opposite way, sticking my arms down because I knew when dad came home, I'd be in trouble. So dad came in and of course, you know, whipped me where he thought I was and it hit my head as I was hoping it would. And so I could spring up out of the cover and get some sympathy and it caused him to stop. That's, you know.
[19:48] How do you feel talking about this stuff?
[19:55] I'm okay. I mean, I've thought about it a lot, you know, in the past. because.
[20:01] You sound very disconnected you sound like you're chanting and there was that little laugh in the middle which is a sign of of avoidance right because.
[20:11] You're talking about.
[20:12] It like yeah i did this i was hitting the head i just wanted to get some sympathy and like it's very disconnected right emotionally.
[20:18] Well maybe because i you know i've i've i've i've accepted what my mom was quite a while ago um and.
[20:28] What is your mom.
[20:28] She's just an evil person as if how she treated me anyway um she never loved me that you know even your sister yeah so so my sister when we were like in our 30s she told me you know that when i was a little kid that she remembers my mom was really horrible of me. And my sister's only a year and a half older than me. And, you know, she was talking about when I was, you know, a toddler and stuff like that. Of course, I didn't remember that kind of stuff. So I was kind of a little bit surprised because I didn't have the memory of it, but even, you know, she did and she wasn't even that old. So it stuck in her head. So my mom went to work, you know, from the time I was six onward. I don't, I don't have a single time in my life where I ever remember her playing a game or any kind of play with me at all and that's you know that's sad I feel you know never hold you yeah I don't yeah she never held me um I I have no recall of that at all in my childhood um.
[21:42] So what else? Um, um, so later, later in the, you know, in her, in her life, she, um, you know, she was hard to deal with, you know, as an adult to never really, you know, felt any caring about her, but she always liked to show me off. if I gave her, you know, something she could brag about my son kind of thing, you know, appearances to people was always really important. I remember growing up often, you know, would go to go shopping for clothes for school, like in junior high. And, and, uh, I learned quickly that if I didn't like what she liked, even though I thought it was ugly, then it'd be like, you know, go to hell kind of thing. And let's, let's get out of here then. Um, that if I didn't want to wear what what she wanted me to wear and thinking back on it and looking back at it, my, you know, you've, you've kind of discussed this some of your show. She really, you know, dressed me very unappealing and my haircut was very unappealing. Um, and, um, you just laughed again.
[22:50] Right?
[22:51] Yeah.
[22:52] So this is not processed as much as it should be.
[22:55] Okay.
[22:57] Right. Cause you, you, you know, and, and no criticism, right? But yeah, you're chanting this stuff from a very emotionally disconnected place. right and we can say oh yes you know but it was so many years ago so i mean there is uh in my experience and this is just me so it doesn't mean obviously that it's right or true but in my experience the emotions don't empty out with age there is no exit of the emotions with age in fact In fact, I find myself more emotionally connected to these kinds of things as I get older. Now, this doesn't mean that I'm suffering more, but it means that I don't disconnect from the emotions just because I'm aging, right? So for me, you know, I mean, I'm a little bit younger than you, so my childhood was, you know, 40, well, more than 50 years ago, right? I mean, sort of when I was in boarding school, it was a half century ago. I still think back and those feelings are all still there. They're not gone. Now, I mean, they don't dominate and dictate my life. And the people I've talked to, I mean, you've heard me talk to older people about their childhoods and the feelings don't vanish. Because we have this, I don't know if you have this idea, but there's this kind of idea like, when I've processed it, I can talk about it without feeling.
[24:25] Feeling.
[24:25] But that's not, when you've processed it, it means you have access to the feelings, but they don't dominate your life. If you're talking about it, you'll have the feelings. You don't spend your life trying to dodge or avoid or act out or something like that. So that's why it's a bit disconcerting to hear this talk about your childhood with no emotion. And the reason being that if there is no emotion, the emotion comes out some other way. In other words, if you can't feel it yourself, if you keep it at a distance, the emotions are going to come out in some other way. and my suspicion is that that's where this aggression is coming from because you're talking about an unbelievably brutalized, neglected and bleak childhood. Like this is awful, awful, awful stuff. To have a mother who you've identified as evil, who didn't play with you, who didn't care about you, a father who beat you with implements and that you had to resort to strategies like having him hit you in the head to get some sympathy or to get him to stop, this is in my view this is like concentration camp stuff.
[25:39] With the worst thing the concentration camp tortures happen to adults with fully formed personalities but this was your childhood, and I suppose that level of distance it's kind of strange to me because, when and I'm not don't mean you're strange I'm just saying that the experience is It's a bit odd because if you go to the doctor and you say, I have a pain, right? I have a pain in my elbow. And then he touches your elbow and he's like, do you feel that? No. Do you feel that? No. Do you feel that? No. And he's trying a little harder. He's pushing around trying to find out where the pain in your elbow is. And you keep telling the doctor, I don't feel any pain. I don't feel anything. Would the doctor be more or less concerned if you said, I can't feel anything? I'm not sure if we're still connected. Can you hear me?
[26:50] Yeah, I can hear you. I said more concerned.
[26:52] Sorry, my apologies. It didn't quite pick up. Yeah, the doctor would be more concerned. Because if you feel a pain and the doctor feels around, then it seems to be numb. That's, I guess, even more concerning. So when you're talking about your childhood, I'm not necessarily expecting you to sort of burst into tears and so on. but in terms of and you know the bonus of this is it's recorded you can listen back to it that I sort of refer to it as chanting where people you know talk about this and that that happened and then this happened and then the other thing happened and it's just very disconnected from the emotions and you're talking about the brutalization of your childhood that went on for decades probably close to two decades, and that's a terrifically sad thing It's an appallingly tragic and sad story about an isolated, brutalized, rejected, and abandoned child. And I suppose that's my question about where are the feelings associated with this?
[27:59] Yeah. well you know that i guess one of the biggest emotional things that happened with her happened in my adulthood and that was um you know she she tried to break up my first marriage i i learned and my ex let me read a letter she wrote to her and this letter she wrote that you know that, I was always evil. I was an evil baby even.
[28:35] Wow.
[28:36] And I'm thinking, I'm just a baby. Come on. How can a baby be evil? And that's what kind of allowed me to just say enough's enough. And I separated from her and our relationship for the rest of her life. and when she died about seven years ago I honestly I didn't feel much of anything I mean when when Neil Peart died a couple of years later I cried but with her you know I I didn't really feel anything.
[29:15] Right. And so how old were you when you stopped seeing your mother?
[29:20] Well, I tried it. She kind of hit my limits when I was, I guess, about 37-ish. I felt like this isn't going anywhere.
[29:33] It was right after her and my dad got a divorce. And after a couple of years, my ex really wanted me to try again, try again. And so I did it.
[29:44] And this is when you were still married?
[29:45] Yes, my first marriage. And I still did. And so she even had me be the best man at her wedding when she got remarried.
[29:56] Your mother did?
[29:57] Yes. Okay. And thinking back on it, because it looks good. But then the poor stuff about... I first started learning about her trying to break up my marriage not long after that. and her talking with my ex and so I separated from her relationship wise, again then and then I just occasionally talked with her at family at family get-togethers or something like that you know with my sister but then like I said Then finally about 2010 is when I cut it off altogether.
[30:45] Oh, so you were in your late 40s, early 50s?
[30:48] Yeah.
[30:48] Okay.
[30:51] And how long were you married to your ex?
[30:53] 17 years.
[30:54] And what ended that?
[30:58] Oh, boy, that's a long story. I guess, well, you know, on that one, I met my ex on a business trip. And I left a week later, wishing I hadn't left, and kept in communication for about six weeks. and then I went back over there and so in total I knew her for about six weeks and we got married so which means I didn't really know her at all kind of, stupid in that regard but you know I always you're in.
[31:40] A you're in a I guess a biracial marriage now was this a biracial marriage then.
[31:45] Yes okay.
[31:46] And what What race?
[31:49] That one was Chinese.
[31:51] Okay.
[31:52] Yeah. And this one's Korean. Okay. And then, so, you know, always believed in marriage, didn't believe in divorce. I learned about a year into that marriage, came home from work one day, and she had a knife in her hand and said there were voices in her head and she wanted to kill herself. Um, and so I spent, you know, a lot of time, sorry, sorry.
[32:22] Let's just back up a second here.
[32:24] Yeah.
[32:24] Because I don't know if you know, the impact that your storytelling has on somebody who's listening emotionally. But again, we're back to disconnected, right? I mean, again, you can say it's a long time ago, and I'm sorry to be bringing up the ex with your current wife, but we do need to sort of get to the root of this. So what drew you to your ex, given that she was, I mean, a long way away, a different race, a different culture, insane? What was it that drew you to her?
[32:58] I guess I would say, one, you already know, she was she was pretty you know i would say i was a five and she was a seven and a half or eight, um and then the other you know in the short time i got to know her i did know that you know she had a really hard childhood was kind of basically on her own getting passed around from family to family since the time she was six yet the person i thought i was meeting at the time seemed like a really generous, kind-hearted person. And so I was impressed by that.
[33:34] I'm sorry, and what was it about her that you viewed as, or you perceived as generous and kind-hearted?
[33:39] Well, how she, you know, treated people, how she treated me.
[33:45] Right, that's a synonym, right? Why was she kind? Well, she treated people kindly. It's like, yes, but what specifically did she do that gave you that impression?
[33:53] Depression um well i i guess the best way to sum it up is you know being on her own she learned how to survive by being a people pleaser and so she would go out of her way to please people no matter what and i need this was happening i need.
[34:09] You to listen to me sorry to be annoying i apologize i really need you to listen to me what did i ask.
[34:16] What specifically did she do?
[34:17] Now you're giving me a theory. Well, she was a people pleaser and she did this and she learned to survive on her own. You're still not answering my question. So that's why I need it. I'm asking for all of these things for a reason. Right? And so when I ask you what specifically did she do, I don't need your theory about why she did it. That's intellectual. Do you see what I mean?
[34:37] Yeah, yeah.
[34:37] So what specifically did she do that gave you the impression that she was kind-hearted?
[34:43] It um well you know i guess when we first met it was you know she'd take time out of her day to spend it with me um she would listen to me um she would make food you know in our marriage she'd make food that i i like to eat no when.
[35:01] You met not in your marriage.
[35:02] Oh okay well that was that she would take time out of her work and make time while i was there to to to uh meet me And then when I wasn't there, you know, it was a pretty difficult six weeks in the interim because, well, she didn't speak English and I didn't speak Chinese. And so Chinese. Come on.
[35:27] Yeah. Oh, come on, brother.
[35:30] Chinese is the double.
[35:32] That's not a relationship.
[35:34] Yes.
[35:35] Come on. You didn't speak each other's language and you married after six weeks.
[35:41] Yes.
[35:42] So this is why you're having trouble answering my question.
[35:49] Okay. I already said it. She was pretty. And I guess.
[35:57] And she wanted to get out of China.
[36:00] Well, she said she did. But I guess in the end, that wasn't true, right?
[36:04] Sorry. She said she didn't?
[36:06] Yeah her impression of the united states was you know what she got from tv shows which is murderers on every corner and you know that kind of stuff and so she said she didn't want to but and and it wasn't china it was taiwan taiwan.
[36:22] My apologies okay.
[36:23] No problem so.
[36:24] So she but but she must have been obviously very attracted to you.
[36:31] Yes i think so which was to me uh uh uh a unique situation because i never dated much at all well.
[36:41] Maybe she i mean there are some people who have a preference for other races right.
[36:46] Right and.
[36:48] Maybe she just had a preference for white men.
[36:53] Right, Yes. And, um, let's see.
[37:00] So you got married within six weeks.
[37:03] Yes.
[37:04] With no common language.
[37:08] Yes. We were, by the time we got married, we were communicating. Um, she's much quicker.
[37:13] Six weeks. Come on.
[37:14] Okay. She's a much quicker learner than I am. And I, you know, I would look up in the double indirected Chinese dictionary pretty quickly at that time. And they had little manual translators too but yes not not the depth that you'd really want really step on yeah.
[37:30] Yeah go on.
[37:31] Look looking back on it i guess and and of course this is intellectualizing and analyzing of myself um the the biggest emotion that that controlled me most of my life was loneliness um and And I guess this was, you know, I saw this as, wow, somebody likes me and I'm not going to be lonely anymore. And so I grabbed at it.
[37:58] Okay. That's one possibility.
[38:03] Yeah.
[38:04] And I'm sure that I'm not going to disagree with you about your analysis of yourself, but that's only one possibility. Do you know what another one is?
[38:16] Well i thought she was the opposite of my mom but i certainly later learned that wasn't.
[38:21] Okay so do you know what the another possibility might be.
[38:29] So wanting to start a family and have a you know the.
[38:33] No because if you want to start a family then you vet very carefully and you didn't so it's not that right.
[38:41] The loneliness overrode all of that.
[38:44] So another possibility and I could be wrong I'm just putting it out this as a maybe right another possibility is that she very much wanted to be with you and you were so used to obeying aggressive women that you complied hmm.
[39:04] Yeah, that's possible.
[39:06] Because you weren't allowed to disagree with your mother.
[39:09] Right.
[39:11] And she wanted to get out of her situation. So you said within a year of getting married, she's pulling a knife on you and saying that she has voices in her head, which, assuming there's not some brain tumor or some genuine schizophrenia or some biological whatever, means that she is radiating to you exactly how tortured and appalling and violent her childhood was in Taiwan, right?
[39:33] Yes.
[39:34] So she had this absolutely terrible childhood, and I would assume that if she was shuffled from house to house, she might have been passed between pedophiles, for all I know, right? Who knows, right?
[39:47] Yes.
[39:47] So she had this absolutely appalling childhood that she was desperate to get away from, and you may have received unconsciously her desperation to change her environment, and because you're used to pleasing women and are never allowed to negotiate, you come in and save her. And the goal is to save her because you couldn't save your mother. The goal is to obey her because all you do is obey women because of your mother's violence and cruelty and neglect. So, it could have just been, because you understand that the story is incomprehensible without some real hidden psychological motive, right? I mean, there's lots of people you could end up not being lonely with, but you were reactive. In other words, and sorry, how old were you when you met her?
[40:32] I was 31. Okay.
[40:34] So, you were reactive in that she wanted you, and it was a little bit passive, if I understand this correctly. Okay.
[40:43] Yes.
[40:44] Okay. So you're just pleasing her, in a sense. I mean, the funny thing is you should call her a people pleaser. But you were obeying her rather than protecting your own heart. Because you knew, I mean, I assume you knew about her bad childhood pretty early on, right?
[41:03] Yes, I did.
[41:04] Right. So you were obeying her. And again, you weren't a kid, right? You were in your 30s. So, you know enough to know that, let's see, Taiwanese culture, I don't think is, and this is true of Asian culture as a whole, though, of course, there are lots of exceptions. And I don't want to say Asian culture, like it's some big giant blob, right? I mean, everybody has their different cultures. But self-knowledge therapy, introspection, and so on, is a bit of a European thing.
[41:32] Right.
[41:33] And it's not as common in Taiwan or other cultures. agree so and you would have known that right you were a man of of of talents who traveled the world and and so on so you would have known all of that so you were not vetting for future safety and security and look i'm not saying the loneliness didn't have a factor but if you're lonely and did you know you were lonely at the time like did you know that loneliness was an issue you.
[42:07] Um yes definitely.
[42:10] Okay so you knew that you were susceptible to love bombing right.
[42:14] Well no actually i i i i never i guess i would say at the time i had very little dating experience, and insight into the human creature that i you know i've learned some from you over the years and from my relationships since then. So I guess I was pretty naive, to say the least, for that age.
[42:41] Okay. Okay. So, yes, it could be, obviously, the loneliness was a factor, but another factor could be just that she was desperate to get out or get away. And I assume that she had been, I mean, a lot of times, racial preferences have to do with being mistreated by the men of your own race.
[43:01] Right. Right.
[43:02] So, because you've had so much, I mean, if she was abused by men and boys in Taiwan, then she would have a very tough time pair bonding, I assume, with a man who looked Asian.
[43:15] Right, yeah.
[43:16] So, it could be that that's where this preference arose from, but you would have this desire to please her and serve her needs. And because what I'm trying to put together, and I'm sorry for being obscure, But what I'm trying to put together is after one year, well, after six weeks, we got married. After a year, she's pulling a knife and she's got voices in her head. And you stayed with her for 17 years.
[43:43] Yes, I thought, you know, we could get psychological help, which you never would, you know, go with.
[43:51] Okay, so that doesn't explain anything.
[43:55] Why did I stay with her for so long?
[43:57] Yeah, so thinking you can get psychological help, and then she doesn't, well, that's when you divorce, right? Because she's dangerous. Like, she could stab you in your sleep. Oh, no. Sorry, go ahead.
[44:08] Let me correct you on one thing, Stefan. She was threatening suicide. It was never violence towards me.
[44:13] Okay. So you don't think that people who were suicidal are capable of violence against others?
[44:20] I don't know, but the thought never crossed my mind. And still today, I never had any, that thought was never there. It was always a threat of self-infliction. She never exhibited it.
[44:33] Let me take another approach. So how long into the marriage did you have children?
[44:39] Five years.
[44:40] Okay. So by the time you had children, so a year into the marriage, she's got the knives and the voices. And was that resolved by the fifth year mark? Mark?
[44:51] Before the child, that was the only time she threatened suicide. After we had about a year and a half after our first child, and I said I didn't think I wanted to have more kids, then she had another. That was the second time she had threatened suicide.
[45:16] So what were the circumstances of the first one?
[45:20] Uh the first you mean with the child or the threatening.
[45:23] No sorry the first time she threatened to commit suicide a year into the marriage.
[45:28] Oh like i said i just came home from work and found her in the kitchen with a knife and so it was out of nowhere from my perspective.
[45:36] Okay so she didn't show any signs of mental instability before a year into the marriage.
[45:42] Um not that i remember.
[45:45] That's that's a very that's a very living yourself some wiggle room answer that's the first time you've said that okay, um so she was able to perfectly cover up a severe mental disorder, for over a year.
[46:10] I really, what's left in my memory, I do not recall another incident during that period of time. Yes.
[46:19] Well, that's not what I asked, though. An incident? Do you mean, I know that this is the first time she'd pulled a knife, said she heard voices, and threatened to kill herself? Are you saying that she had not shown any signs of thinking disorder or personality problems prior to that moment, a year into the massacre?
[46:41] Uh, out, uh, except for the constant wanting to please people, which I, I probably noticed. Um, nothing else do I recall in that time.
[46:59] Now, what about when you look back though, with the knowledge that you have now?
[47:03] Well, when I look back with the knowledge that I have now, I think it was all a game.
[47:15] The the incident that allowed me to finally write her off even after our divorce was I took my my kids on a road trip around the United States about seven years ago and we had finished the road trip we're staying at my dad's and in the middle of the night my daughter who was 19 at the time came running into the room and and um um and i'm looking the look on her face is just still stuck in my head she said mom just talked to me and she's trying to commit suicide do something think dad and you know since this had now happened you know about you know throughout the years i don't know maybe a half a dozen times this was finally seeing the look on my daughter's face that that she would do this on the phone halfway around the world i just thought you're just plain a bad person to do that to your own daughter where she can't do anything but you're just trying to you know cause her emotional anguish and harm and how selfish that is of you and that was the final incident that.
[48:45] That allowed me to get rid of my wanting to help her in any way shape or form, um you know so that the suicide threats like i said did happen and, After that, through the years, but that final one is me realizing this is just a game she plays to get my sympathies and control her daughter and things of that nature.
[49:16] Okay, so she uses a kind of aggression to get her way.
[49:20] Yeah, you know, I didn't know the term, but, you know, you used the term passive-aggressive, I guess, and maybe I got this wrong, but I do know throughout our marriage, you know, We'd have discussions, and we'd come to agreement on how to do one thing or the other, raise the kids and that kind of thing. And she would sure agree, but then behind my back, do the exact opposite or do whatever she wanted to do anyway. I would think, oh, we made a progress.
[49:46] Not much of a people pleaser if she can't please her husband. Right, okay.
[49:48] Well, that was actually one of my big bones. She would go through an effort to please strangers more than she would me or even the family.
[49:59] Well, that's very common.
[50:00] Yeah.
[50:00] No, that's very common. That's very common. Okay.
[50:02] So.
[50:03] So, it's my understanding that in the 17 years, there were half a dozen threats of suicide, but everything else was good. I mean, other than maybe going behind your back and stuff. Like, I'm trying to figure out where the dysfunction was, other than the extremes.
[50:19] Well, also, there were... Oh, yeah. Everybody liked her. My family loved her a lot more than me. She's like, somebody went to...
[50:30] Sorry, I can't hear what your wife is saying.
[50:31] Oh, yeah. So, okay, so now you made me think of something that did happen in that first year. The first Christmas party after we were married, coming home, she was like, oh, your boss was flirting with me. It made me very uncomfortable. comfortable. And so, you know, I basically, as soon as I could quit that job and move to another city after that, cause I didn't, you know, want her to experience, you know, that, but then, that turned into a pattern over the years, um, from strangers to friends to repair man and all this kind of stuff, you know, people flirting with her. And I stupidly believe them all until after our divorce.
[51:27] And why did you stop believing?
[51:30] Well, after our divorce, you know, she told me that even one of our close group of friends did that. And so she wouldn't tell me exactly who did it. You know, some people I might expect it more than others. But then finally, you know, you know, she finally told me who did it. And I'm like, you know, that was so far fetched that, you know, I came to realize, no, this is just a pattern that she's repeating. And I'm falling for it every time because I always, you know, wanted to be the protector, I guess. And, you know, I lost, you know, I had another co-worker one time. She claimed we were over at their house for dinner and he tried to kiss her upstairs. And this was a guy that worked for me and put me in a very uncomfortable situation of, you know, I accused him. And one of the few times I ever did that, and of course she denied it all, but I wound up changing jobs not too far after that to try to get away out of that uncomfortable situation too. So I really did believe her and trusted her despite the evidence.
[52:50] Okay. And so she's making you promises and then breaking the behind your back, she threatens suicide, and she puts you in significant jeopardy, right? She puts you in significant jeopardy by lying about men coming on to her, right? Financial jeopardy, professional jeopardy, and legal jeopardy.
[53:15] Yes, sir.
[53:16] Because if she spreads these rumors, she could get sued. I'm no lawyer, but I mean, that would seem to me, if you're spreading lies about someone coming on to you, particularly if he's married and his wife hears these, I mean, this could be really bad.
[53:33] Yes.
[53:33] Could be. So, even if it's not some legal thing, it's great material damage. So, you did participate in some significant reputational damage based on what you claim are falsehoods, right?
[53:43] Right.
[53:44] Okay. So, very disturbed woman, right?
[53:50] Yes.
[53:51] How many kids two okay so 17 years two kids yeah and was the end something that happened gradually or was it all of a sudden when you saw your 19 year old daughter's face regarding this.
[54:08] No that was after the divorce actually.
[54:10] Um oh sorry that's when you said you gave up on her as a person yes yeah and what caused the divorce and.
[54:17] Well, you know, over the years, early on, you know, I'd say maybe, I don't know, I don't remember exactly what year, but she would say, oh, why don't you divorce me? You can find somebody better.
[54:31] She would say that, sorry, after the first year?
[54:34] No, I would say more four or five years into it. You know, if we had a big argument or something, she'd say, well, you can go find somebody better than me, more suitable to you than me.
[54:45] Right. And, you know, she was kind of telling the truth, right?
[54:49] Yes, she was. And I was too stupid to listen. But yeah, definitely she was.
[54:54] I don't like the stupid stuff.
[54:56] Okay. And then, so this, you know, was a recurring pattern, but I was always, I only want to, you know, be married once and the kids and stuff like that. And so finally, what happened is my kids had some school friends, and I would go pick them up at school. And one of the school friends' mom would pick their kids up, and we'd talk and waiting for the kids. and then we you know they were a couple we were a couple friends we'd go with our house they'd come over our house and i guess the the the wife said that you know she wasn't really happy with her marriage and uh so my wife came home one day and said look i think you should you know marry this lady she'd be better for you and to me that was just the most absurd that was the end of the story. If my wife is trying to set me up with somebody else, then I guess I get it now. This isn't a long-lasting situation. So that was the final argument that I said, okay, I agree. Let's get a divorce.
[56:14] And how did that go?
[56:17] It went fine as far as she, you know, she agreed because I guess she wanted it all along.
[56:25] You mean she wanted the divorce all along?
[56:28] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's what she'd been telling me for years. You can find somebody better. So she didn't, you know, she didn't argue about that. And I, you know, did the legal stuff and split everything.
[56:44] And sorry, how old were your kids?
[56:47] My son was nine, and my daughter was 12.
[56:50] Oh, gosh.
[56:52] Yeah. So it was not a good time for them. And, you know, it's never a good time. And did you split custody? Yeah. And, Stefan, that was the biggest mistake and regret I have in my entire life.
[57:09] I was going to say, I mean, you're saddling your kids with this mom, right?
[57:14] Yeah. And when I look back on it, I didn't want my ex to be lonely because I knew what that was like.
[57:23] Oh, no, no, you didn't give the kids to your ex.
[57:26] No, I gave my daughter to her, and I took my son, and I should have never given my daughter to her.
[57:31] Sorry, what do you mean you gave your daughter to her?
[57:34] I gave her custody.
[57:35] Full custody?
[57:38] Shared custody, but then she broke all the rules. um so i didn't get to see her much after that what.
[57:46] Do you mean she just didn't return your daughter to you.
[57:49] Yeah we had you know i'd get to see my daughter on the weekends and she wouldn't you know have her come over and so sorry i.
[57:57] Mean i maybe i'm missing something but don't you call the lawyers and and i mean deal with that.
[58:04] Well this one this was in taiwan at the time time, after the divorce, and so, no, I didn't— Sorry.
[58:21] I don't know what—I mean, obviously, I'm not a lawyer in any jurisdiction, but I know nothing about Taiwanese family law, but if you have a court agreement, aren't there mechanisms to enforce it?
[58:32] Well, it wasn't—first of all, it wasn't a court agreement. It was a private agreement that we both signed.
[58:37] Okay, so if you have a private agreement, is there some way to enforce it?
[58:42] Uh... I don't know. I'm sure there probably is.
[58:50] Sorry, hang on, hang on, hang on. So you had lawyers to help you with the divorce, right?
[58:54] No, I didn't.
[58:55] Why wouldn't you pay for lawyers to help you with the divorce? You've got a crazy woman on your hands.
[59:00] I didn't fully appreciate that at the time.
[59:03] No, you did. No, come on. She's already threatened to commit suicide a number of times. She breaks agreements all the time, right? You said that you'd make an agreement with your wife and she'd break it.
[59:12] So you have 17 years of experience with this. So please don't tell me you didn't know. I mean, come on, let's give each other that basic respect of what actually happened, right? You knew she broke rules.
[59:25] Yeah. Right?
[59:26] You knew that because, and you knew that you had a crazy woman on your hands because you've got a wife who's trying to set you up with another man, another man's wife, right?
[59:36] Yeah. Okay.
[59:37] So, and she's threatened to kill herself and she's hearing voices and so on, right? How often did the hearing voices stuff come up or was it just the ones? uh.
[59:45] It was in that year in the first couple of years it was a couple more times but then that dissipated after that.
[59:54] Okay so i mean that may have just been a manipulation as well right yeah okay i think so you've got 17 years experience with a highly manipulative woman who falsely accuses men of uh i mean she said that the man tried to kiss her it wasn't just flirting right Right.
[1:00:10] Right.
[1:00:10] I mean, that's a minor form of assault, right?
[1:00:13] Yeah, and that wasn't the first one either.
[1:00:15] Okay, so she's accusing men of minor or vague, I don't know what the legal term would be, but it's certainly not legal to go and kiss women against their will, I don't imagine, right? Yeah. So you have a lying, manipulative, dangerous woman on your hands, and you think you're going to do this lawyer-free? Why?
[1:00:37] Good question. I, I, Yeah, I don't know why I...
[1:00:51] No, you do. You do know why.
[1:00:53] Okay.
[1:00:53] I mean, you were there, right? Besides not liking lawyers. By sorry? Well, yeah, I mean, nobody likes lawyers, but we're supposed to like our children more, right? And this was at the sacrifice of your daughter.
[1:01:04] Matter of fact, most of the agreement was strictly about the children and what she had to do.
[1:01:08] Okay, so if you have an agreement, what, did you just type it up yourselves?
[1:01:13] Yeah, I searched, you know, different, the two states we'd lived in, what the common clauses were, and I, you know, and I used those, and they, you know, was focused around, you know, child support and the kids' schooling and, you know, having to notify each other about medical issues, schooling issues.
[1:01:33] Okay, so you both signed this document. It's a contract, right?
[1:01:37] Yes.
[1:01:37] Okay, so that would be legally binding if you both sign it, right?
[1:01:41] Yes. And she regularly broke it, and I rewrote it a couple of times and had her sign other aspects of it with, if you don't do this, then you will not get this alimony payment or something like that. And she still didn't do it.
[1:02:06] Okay, so did you hold up your end? Did you stop the alimony payments?
[1:02:10] I only stopped the alimony payment about when my daughter was 17, so five years into it. And of course, you know, I'm the bad guy to my kids for doing that, right?
[1:02:27] Well, your kids don't know anything other than what they're told.
[1:02:31] Mom tells them, yes.
[1:02:31] Well, and you.
[1:02:33] Yeah.
[1:02:33] Okay, so how often did you get to see your daughter?
[1:02:38] Well in the end maybe you know in, Once every six months.
[1:02:51] Oh, my gosh. Was that because you were no longer in Taiwan?
[1:02:57] No, I was in Taiwan up until, you know.
[1:03:02] No, it's fine. So I don't need the dates. I'm just so you were still in Taiwan and you would only see your daughter every six months.
[1:03:09] Yeah. I mean, you know, I asked many times because, you know, my ex would complain about her. They have a fairly mutually destructive relationship. So after the first...
[1:03:24] Well, this is the mother you chose for your children.
[1:03:26] I know. That's my regret.
[1:03:30] I mean, yeah, I do have to keep coming back to your kids in all of this, right?
[1:03:35] Yeah, you're 100% right. That's why, you know...
[1:03:39] So you wouldn't see your daughter and you'd phone your wife and ask, and your wife would say, we're busy, we can't, or whatever?
[1:03:48] She doesn't want to come over or something, yeah.
[1:03:52] Okay.
[1:03:53] And I didn't want to use my son as a tool like that, so I would say, no, it's your weekend, you've got to go see your mom. And, of course, he goes over there and he gets to do anything. He played video games the whole time, eat whatever he wants. So, of course, there's no rules over there, but there were rules at my house.
[1:04:14] Not really. not really I mean you didn't see your daughter more than twice a year at times and you had a signed agreement what kind of fucking rules are you talking about you didn't enforce the rules of seeing your children what rules are there, just to be blunt right don't tell me how rules based you are when you have a whole signed agreement about custody and you don't do anything to enforce it right Right. Even your side of things, stopping alimony.
[1:04:49] Yeah. You're right.
[1:04:50] So you're not a rules-based life form. And so when you try to impose rules on your kids, what are they going to think?
[1:04:59] Bad example, Dad.
[1:05:01] Well, come on.
[1:05:02] Yeah.
[1:05:05] I mean, it's kind of been the high point of credibility for either of their parents with With your children. Well, kids, it's important to manage how much time you spend playing video games. Right? I haven't seen your sibling in six months. Won't enforce those rules. Won't lift a finger on that.
[1:05:23] Yeah.
[1:05:25] But, you know, you got to follow my rules because rules are super important.
[1:05:28] Mm-hmm.
[1:05:32] And at this point, you're pushing 50, right?
[1:05:36] Oh, no, I'm early 60s.
[1:05:39] No, no, sorry. At the point where...
[1:05:40] Oh, yes, yes, yes.
[1:05:43] Okay. No, no, I know you're in your early 60s. I get that. So, okay. No, but listen, correct me if you think I've got something wrong, because I'm always trying to juggle 17,000 different balls of the air during these convos. So if one falls, please let me know. Okay.
[1:05:56] No, I have no issues with your analysis. so your.
[1:06:01] Son how often would your son have to see his mother.
[1:06:07] Uh usually once a week.
[1:06:11] Okay that doesn't tell me much.
[1:06:16] Like you said for an afternoon.
[1:06:17] A lunch a weekend what does that.
[1:06:19] Oh no okay so a weekend.
[1:06:21] Okay so he would she he would get weekends with your mother.
[1:06:24] Well it would always depend on her schedule and yes i would you know change my schedule to fit her schedule so, so sometimes it was you know during the week and sometimes it was weekends depending upon what you know her job requirements were okay so.
[1:06:42] Who was taking care of your children when you guys were working.
[1:06:45] Um i'm i was semi-retired so i i i worked at home and so i was i was on my side i was there on her side yes i mean you got an annual post right yeah it was supposed to it was supposed to be her time was when she was off work and that's why i would change my schedule to fit her off work time but her off so i mean were the kids left.
[1:07:13] Alone much when they were with her.
[1:07:15] Um i would say my guess is 20 of the time 25 of the time.
[1:07:26] They were left alone.
[1:07:27] Yes a nine-year-old yes bro.
[1:07:36] I mean, you knew that, right?
[1:07:38] Yes.
[1:07:39] I mean, in a lot of places, you can't leave kids alone like that. I mean, do you think a nine-year-old is... I mean, I know he's got... Well, I guess sometimes he'd have his sister with him. I guess most times, right?
[1:07:55] Yeah, they would always be together.
[1:07:57] So you didn't have your daughter without your son?
[1:08:03] Not really.
[1:08:05] Well, that means sometimes, right?
[1:08:09] No, I guess I would say no, I didn't.
[1:08:12] Okay, so you had your son without your daughter, but never your daughter without your son.
[1:08:16] Yes.
[1:08:17] And did you know why your daughter was prohibited from seeing you, basically?
[1:08:22] Well, yeah. Within the first couple of months, you know, my ex, you know, tried to make me out to be the villain.
[1:08:35] But you knew that was going to happen, right?
[1:08:40] No, actually, I didn't.
[1:08:42] Oh, no, no. Come on. She already lied. Come on, man. She already lied about your friends hitting on her and trying to kiss her.
[1:08:48] Well, again, at that point in time, I believed her. okay, okay, I'm in some aspects I'm way overly trusting of people even though I have lots of I.
[1:09:05] Don't know exactly how to characterize any of this but I know.
[1:09:07] That your narratives.
[1:09:08] Aren't correct sorry to be so blunt but.
[1:09:10] Otherwise you.
[1:09:12] Wouldn't be calling me right so in hindsight do you think it would have been better to stay married so that you could protect your children.
[1:09:22] No in hindsight it would have been better to take my kids and keep them away from her okay.
[1:09:27] And why didn't you do that well.
[1:09:31] After the first um what happened after the first i think was year year and a half um my daughter who was now 13, had ballooned to 100 kilograms. And I, yeah. And it just made me very angry. And so, you know, I forced, let's go to the doctor. I was worried about her becoming diabetic, okay?
[1:10:03] And why did your wife have her gain that much weight?
[1:10:10] Well, you know, looking back on it, I think it's the reason that you talk about all the time, that she wants her to be unattractive so that she stays with and is dependent upon her. Okay.
[1:10:20] So she is destroying the health of your daughter.
[1:10:23] Yes.
[1:10:24] Okay. And causing lifelong problems because, you know, the fat cells, what was it, this meme I saw the other day, like skin cells die, hair follicles die, even brain cells die. my belly fat cells seem to have accepted jesus christ and as their lord and savior because they seem to have eternal life so you know fat cells it's real hard to get rid of them right i mean so it's like a lifelong problem then it's.
[1:10:48] A it's a horrible thing to do to a young girl that you know is trying to develop an image of herself and you know likes boys at that point in time.
[1:10:56] Starting that time in his culture is not exactly like american culture when it comes to I guess the obese girls stand out more, right?
[1:11:04] Oh, absolutely.
[1:11:05] Okay, so your daughter.
[1:11:07] She got criticized for that too in school, I'm sure.
[1:11:10] Oh, yeah, yeah.
[1:11:10] Girls didn't like her just for that reason.
[1:11:12] Of course. So your ex-wife is destroying your daughter's health, and what happens?
[1:11:19] So after a couple of doctor visits, and I realized, I had her write down everything you're feeding her, and she was like oh this is not a big issue you know which you just went in the face of what the doctor was saying what i'm saying and that's when i i forgot that's when i did threaten to cut off everything and i said nope i want my daughter to come live with me and by that point my daughter didn't want to live with me um for i guess a couple of reasons that i you know alluded to before one my ex had been whispering in her ears that i'm the bad person all this and two she can She can do anything she wants at mom's. And then so the— Well.
[1:12:00] She can do anything she wants at mom's because you let her.
[1:12:06] Yes.
[1:12:07] I mean, you have clear evidence here that your ex-wife doesn't respect any rules.
[1:12:12] Yes.
[1:12:12] And so you then, as the man, have to enforce the rules. But you didn't.
[1:12:18] Well, at this point.
[1:12:19] I can't physically make her come live with me. You keep complaining that your wife lets your kids do anything, but you let your wife do anything.
[1:12:27] Yes.
[1:12:28] How is that not the same thing? You keep trying to distance yourself from your wife. Well, you know, she just let the kids do whatever. It's like, well, you never enforced anything. You let her do whatever. How is that different?
[1:12:44] I cannot say it's a great deal of different. at this point I felt I had no, well I guess I'd have to caveat that non-legal manner to get her to do okay but you were semi-retired.
[1:13:04] You had money.
[1:13:09] Meaning I could have afforded lawyers.
[1:13:12] You're some broke rickshaw driver with eight cents to his name? Yes. You're independently wealthy.
[1:13:18] I wouldn't use the term wealthy, but...
[1:13:20] Okay, you're semi-retired in your early 50s.
[1:13:24] Well, when I say that, I mean I turned to investing in order to make a living.
[1:13:28] Okay, you had money.
[1:13:30] Yes.
[1:13:32] Did you ever consult with a lawyer?
[1:13:36] Uh after that no i only consulted a lawyer one time before we finalized the divorce okay so your ex-wife.
[1:13:45] Is destroying your daughter's health and you don't make a phone call to a lawyer saying what can i do.
[1:13:51] Well that is correct but i did do something um and what i did was I made the legal threat, the monetary threat, and I got my ex to agree to let my daughter go live with my sister back in the States since she didn't want to come live with me. And so for the next school year.
[1:14:17] My daughter… Sorry, what was your relationship with your daughter and your sister like?
[1:14:22] They really didn't have much of one.
[1:14:25] So your daughter is going to live in a new country, Did she speak English? Of course, yeah, she spoke English, right? Yeah. So she's going to live in a new country, a new culture, with a different race, right? Your sister, I assume, is Caucasian, and her mother is Taiwanese.
[1:14:41] Yes.
[1:14:41] So we've got a different race, different culture.
[1:14:44] We're not a different culture. My kids grew up in the U.S. We only went to Taiwan around the divorce time.
[1:14:51] My apologies. Okay, I appreciate that.
[1:14:52] No problem.
[1:14:53] Okay, so, but she's going to live with a woman she doesn't really know.
[1:14:58] Yes. But I felt that was much better than the woman she knew.
[1:15:03] Okay. Got it.
[1:15:05] That was the only thing that I could get her diet under control if I couldn't get them to agree to have her live with me.
[1:15:14] Okay. So how long did your daughter live with your sister for?
[1:15:20] The school year, so nine, ten months.
[1:15:23] Okay. And did she lose the weight?
[1:15:26] She lost a lot of the weight yes you know she was exercising and everything um, And I, but I, you know, I can't say, I think my sister made it fairly clear to me. She didn't enjoy the process and they didn't get along that well. And I learned, you know, last year, my sister confessed that, you know, my ex would call and they would have these big discussions on the phone where she was, my ex was, you know, I guess for lack of a better term, putting down my daughter on a regular basis. And my sister didn't even bother telling me that until last year.
[1:16:07] Okay. And where was your, your son was staying with you or was he going back and forth between you and your ex?
[1:16:14] No, he was, he was staying with me, but I always allowed him to go to my ex because I, I felt like I didn't want him to be a, well, this kind of sounds stupid now, but the, tool, I didn't want to use him as a, as a weapon, like my ex was using the kids. So.
[1:16:33] Okay, I mean, you said at the beginning, like, if someone sells you something that turns out to be false, you consider them a liar, right? So you said you make these moral judgments, right?
[1:16:42] Okay.
[1:16:44] I mean, why wouldn't you have morally judged your ex-wife as an unfit mother and kept your son away from her malign influence?
[1:16:52] Yes.
[1:16:53] Like, if you're a moralist, right? You make him all these moral judgments. Why would you send... Did he want to go? Oh, I guess because she'd let him do anything, right?
[1:17:03] Yeah, yeah. He wanted to go, you know.
[1:17:07] Okay.
[1:17:08] I guess I didn't want to ruin my relationship with him by saying, no, you can't see your mom. So that was probably the selfish motive on my part, Stefan.
[1:17:19] Okay. Why do you think that would have ruined your relationship with him? I mean, so people are displeased with you at the moment, so what? Yeah, I get that. I get that. and my daughter wants a steady diet of candy when she's young, so what? I mean, the whole point of parenting is you know better than your kids, right?
[1:17:39] Yeah.
[1:17:40] Because they want something doesn't mean that they get it. I mean, how many kids want ponies? Do you buy them ponies? I mean, what am I missing here?
[1:17:51] I guess I just felt I didn't want to use the kids as a tool, and that would be me using them as a tool just like she did.
[1:17:57] No, it's protecting them.
[1:17:59] Yes, you're right.
[1:18:00] But you asked me what my motivation was. What was going on? This is not true. This isn't even remotely believable.
[1:18:06] But you asked me what was my thought at the time, and that was my thought at the time. I didn't want to play with my kids like that.
[1:18:21] But your ex-wife was so toxic, you had to fly your daughter halfway around the world.
[1:18:25] Yeah.
[1:18:26] And you send your son over.
[1:18:28] Right.
[1:18:29] So how does this square? Help me square the circle.
[1:18:33] It's not possible.
[1:18:34] Okay, so then, what was the real motive? Because if the surface motive makes no sense, there has to be another motive.
[1:18:49] Outside of my relationship, I didn't want my son to view me negatively also. I can't think of something outside of that motivation.
[1:19:10] I mean, I know in California, there's a lot of biracial kids, Asian white. Is that the case in Taiwan as well? well i.
[1:19:18] Wouldn't say a lot but there's certainly some and um yeah.
[1:19:23] And taiwanese culture is i mean fairly disciplined and fairly rules-based right um yes okay and.
[1:19:34] I would yeah.
[1:19:35] So isn't it kind of rough on your kids i mean they have the biracial thing which is you know not a huge issue but can give some identity issues of course they've got the biracial thing and then they'd be raised in this very untraditional manner, and then your daughter gets obese, I mean, isn't this just causing your kids to not fit in anywhere?
[1:19:55] It definitely did with my daughter. My son, you know, I sent them to a private Christian school, so I don't think he felt that way there at all, because most of her friends were either Caucasians or international in some form or fashion, or biracial also.
[1:20:25] Where did you think they were going to live when they became adults? Because that's what we're preparing children for, right, is their life as adults.
[1:20:34] Right.
[1:20:34] So it's one thing to be in school, I guess, right? But where were you planning to, in your mind, where were they going to live when they got older?
[1:20:48] I don't think I was thinking about the physicality of where they wanted to live. Although, that said, I was sure pretty early on that my son didn't want to live in Taiwan because he didn't like Taiwan, the people, that much, even though he's half Taiwanese.
[1:21:12] Well, I mean, it's not genetic, right? Yeah. Okay. Got it. All right. So, where have your children settled?
[1:21:21] Well, we actually, my daughter is still with my ex.
[1:21:26] Oh, gosh.
[1:21:27] Haven't heard from her since I left three years ago.
[1:21:31] Hang on, sorry, how old is your daughter now?
[1:21:33] She's now 26.
[1:21:36] She's 26 and she's still living with your ex?
[1:21:39] For the best of my knowledge you know it's still, staying in her room most of the time on the internet that kind of stuff and no life and did she manage.
[1:21:52] To keep the weight off oh.
[1:21:54] You don't know right well back then i know she didn't um so she gained the weight back she gained the weight back and there was a period of time um, um, uh, I guess I'd say six, seven years ago that, uh, my son and I started working out. And then when my, um, I actually called you one other time, seven years ago about my son entering the Marines. Um, and we talked about his wanting to go in the Marines, but so he went off to the Marines. And when I went back, he had got me in a workout habit. And so I convinced my daughter to do the workout with me. And I actually got her going to the gym for about six months and then one time out of nowhere she's like you know pay your pay pay pay my mom alimony or i'm not going to see you and so that got her to stop going to the gym um or or seeing me for the most part but i did get to see her a couple of more times after that you know and then right before i left but i haven't i haven't uh i haven't seen her been able to talk to her since then and uh so i can't imagine the situation is you know gotten any better improved at all gosh.
[1:23:13] And you know has she i mean had she dated or or.
[1:23:16] No she'd never she'd never dated and so the the uh yeah she never dated um and she doesn't have a social life outside at all my you know even hardly to go out and get food at all um and they have a pretty mutually destructive relationship they yell at each other a lot and my ex would you know, you know complain about my daughter and what do i do what do i do and i tell her exactly you know what she could do and then she wouldn't do it um, My son, on the other hand, you know.
[1:23:55] No, no, stand your daughter. It's quite a body to be carrying around, isn't it?
[1:24:01] It is. It's really sad.
[1:24:05] And I assume you try to contact her and you don't get any response, right?
[1:24:09] Yeah, yes.
[1:24:11] My gosh. That's absolutely terrible. I mean, she must have been worse treated or treated worse than you and I, because you and I got out there, had lives, got dates.
[1:24:24] Yes.
[1:24:25] Oh, my gosh. And you did, to some degree, send her back to your ex so your ex wouldn't feel lonely, right?
[1:24:37] No, I let her stay initially for that reason. I didn't send her back for that reason. I sent her back because my sister didn't want her and she wouldn't live with me. and and she wanted to go back um and your sister didn't.
[1:24:52] Want her because she was difficult to live with.
[1:24:53] Yeah and.
[1:24:55] What age was she then.
[1:24:55] Um this was uh i believe 15 14 okay 14, and my sister had just gotten you know the last of her kids out of the house too and so i was kind of you know usurping on that a little bit too.
[1:25:16] Well it would only have been another two two and a half years right.
[1:25:20] Yeah you know looking back on it stefan i should have you know, scrapped everything and taken my son and we should have moved close to the school in the u.s that she was going to you know i could have done that and i didn't.
[1:25:35] Right right it's a burden man it is, that mean 20 you said she's 26 27, yeah no dating experience no social life stuck in a room like a mushroom, locked in a dysfunctional relationship with her i don't know crazy mom, I mean, that's really about as bad as things get as a dad, right?
[1:26:15] It is. I'm so sorry.
[1:26:18] And, I mean, if you'd known what the outcome was, you would have done things differently, right?
[1:26:31] Yes. Without a doubt. This was an outcome I couldn't even imagine.
[1:26:44] Yeah i mean you know people say that but no it absolutely is yeah no i mean this this you know cries if there's no way i could have foreseen it yeah of course i mean she got to 100 kilograms at the age of 12 with her team right so you knew that she was being groomed to be staying with mom right actually.
[1:27:04] I did not have that concept at that time i i've learned it since then from you but.
[1:27:14] Well, did you ever consult with a psychologist saying, look, there's big problems in my family and I need some professional insight?
[1:27:23] I didn't consult with a psychologist myself. My wife did try to kill herself not long after we got to Taiwan. And we, of course, looked at psychologists, but I'm not privy to that conversation. I did get a psychologist for my... daughter on two occasions that i got them to agree to to go see it but uh the first time it just was one visit she wouldn't go back and of course i'm not privy to that discussion and then the the the second time she went a couple of times but they just wanted to go to get i think the you know antidepressant pills or something like the medicine oh she's.
[1:28:07] On ssris as well.
[1:28:08] Something yes Right.
[1:28:11] I think they've been associated with the weight gain, although I'm not entirely sure. Okay. Do you know what age your daughter was when she went on these pills?
[1:28:22] Let's see. My guess and recall is I think around 16, certainly 17.
[1:28:37] Okay. And has your son, sorry, has your son, Dewey?
[1:28:43] Well, you know, he served his five years in the Marines and he got out a little over a year ago. And, you know, his goal always was he wanted to, you know, get married young and have a family. And he, I was always a little worried about him because he never really dated, even though he's a good looking guy and popular and popular with the girls, too. too, because I volunteered at his school. But he never really dated. And when he got into the Marines, he would even make jokes about what do Marines do with their first paycheck? They buy a Mustang, and on their second paycheck, they buy an engagement ring. He didn't want any of that, and he told me that, no, Dad, I don't want a date. I want to court a girl. And so he got out of the Marines, and a couple of months later, I learned after the fact that he had gone overseas to meet a woman that he had met online and that he was engaged.
[1:29:51] How did you find out after?
[1:29:54] Well, he hinted it once as to, you know, oh, I went on vacation. And then later we went and visited him. And that's when he, yeah, he said, I'm engaged, Dad. And also.
[1:30:12] So he's just, he's repeating.
[1:30:15] Well, I don't know about that. No, no, no.
[1:30:19] No, he's repeating, not in that his fiancee is just like your ex, but he's repeating in not getting feedback.
[1:30:30] Yes, exactly.
[1:30:32] Like you, he knew that you met your wife overseas and it went really badly. And then he meets a woman he wants to marry overseas and doesn't ask you for your advice.
[1:30:43] Yes.
[1:30:44] So that's not good.
[1:30:45] Right. And at this point, of course, I hope I've learned something. I would love to give him advice, but he doesn't want to hear that from me.
[1:30:55] So you guys aren't really close?
[1:30:59] No. When he was gone in the Marines, he wouldn't call me much. I'd say, give me a call, give me a letter, send me a picture, something like that.
[1:31:10] And how often would he contact you over the five years?
[1:31:14] It was almost always i would say initiated by me no.
[1:31:18] He how often would he contact you.
[1:31:21] Where he would initiate it i can't recall okay.
[1:31:25] So what's happened with the girl.
[1:31:30] Uh well she's she's been over here a couple of times and and he's been back over there and they're planning to you know get married and I guess right now she's got to finish school and I need.
[1:31:48] That I don't need to technical.
[1:31:49] Specific so this best I could tell so what.
[1:31:54] What's your son's relationship with his mother like.
[1:31:57] Um Hard to tell. He doesn't talk about it.
[1:32:05] So, not good. What's your relationship, what's the relationship like between your brother, sorry, between your son and his sister?
[1:32:15] They rarely talk. I ask him how she is and he doesn't know. Okay.
[1:32:21] So, the girl, is she aware of the family history?
[1:32:26] I don't know. I've only, we've only talked once and he hasn't, I've only talked with her and him once, you know, over Skype. And so I, I, I, I don't know. um i know she's from a christian family and they met on a christian website and my son i learned a couple of years ago um became a christian um and he uh wanted to join the mennonite church because he liked the mennonites he's kind of a luddite himself likes old music's not that big fan of technology. And so he did ask me, you know, Dad, why didn't you raise me to be a Christian on our last visit physically together? And I explained to him because, you know, I'm not a Christian. And so I wanted you to have, that would be kind of hypocritical of me. but to be honest you know i'd rather him be a christian than a atheist who doesn't believe in anything um so i'm kind of happy at his choice of wanting to be around you know um a good community okay.
[1:33:45] So if he's a christian then he must have told his fiancee about the family history because thou shalt not bear false witness is a central commandment right and.
[1:33:57] So the.
[1:33:58] Last thing he'd want to do is withhold from his fiance the facts about the family history well.
[1:34:04] I understand that but whether he's done it or not i i'm not privy to sorry.
[1:34:08] But why wouldn't you do it.
[1:34:09] Why wouldn't i do it yeah i don't have the ability to talk to her sorry do you.
[1:34:16] Want a skype call.
[1:34:16] Uh yeah one time when i i met her and But you have her Skype ID.
[1:34:22] Right?
[1:34:24] No, I have his Skype ID.
[1:34:25] Oh, okay, so there's no way. Okay, so wouldn't you call up your son and say, okay, so what does she think of the family history? And if he says, well, I haven't really told her, then you'd say, well, that's not very Christian of you, because thou shalt not bear false witness. You're withholding essential information that she needs to make a decision about whether she wants to marry into the family.
[1:34:44] Yes.
[1:34:45] So that's a sin, and a grave sin.
[1:34:47] That's a great idea.
[1:34:48] Okay, so why this has not occurred to you?
[1:34:54] Say again?
[1:34:55] This has not occurred to you?
[1:34:58] Yes, things like that. Actually, not talking with her directly, but talking more to him.
[1:35:03] Okay, so how long have they been engaged for?
[1:35:07] They've been engaged, we found out, about a year ago.
[1:35:11] Okay. When are they planning to get married?
[1:35:16] Don't have a definite date, because it was after she finished school, but now, last time I talked, maybe not. So I would say sometime within the next year or two.
[1:35:27] I don't know. I mean, if you say that you might be autistic and your ex-wife is whatever, isn't that important for her to know?
[1:35:39] Yes.
[1:35:41] So why doesn't she know, or why don't you know whether she knows?
[1:35:46] Because my son doesn't tell me much, and oftentimes when I...
[1:35:51] Okay, so why wouldn't you ask him? does she know about the family history? Does she know what she's getting into? Is he hiding things from her? Is he lying to her about the family? Does she know that you have some sort of recluse, obese sister and the suicidal mom and the maybe autistic, whatever you want to say, dad? I mean, does she know what she's getting into?
[1:36:18] Right. and yeah maybe that's why he doesn't want to talk with me much you know well as i do confront but you have.
[1:36:28] To god sorry go ahead.
[1:36:31] Yeah you know i i i honestly i i worry that you know if i say the wrong thing at some point then i will never hear from him just like i never hear from my No.
[1:36:45] But that's continuing the shit with your mother. This is like, you're too old for this, right? Because with your mother, you couldn't oppose her. With your father, you couldn't oppose him because of violence, right? So you had no standing, you couldn't say anything because you were afraid of being attacked, abandoned, and dying. That's what happens at the basic level of the human psyche when children feel rejected by their parents, they experience that as a death threat, right? Okay. So when you were a kid, you couldn't say anything because people would abandon you, and you would fear dying, and that's good healthy instincts, right? So now what happens? Well, your whole life seems to have been somewhat characterized by this fear that if you are honest and direct and assertive, people are just going to throw you out like yesterday's pizza box.
[1:37:44] It's because it usually happens.
[1:37:48] Well, why? Why does it happen? Is everyone your mom and your dad?
[1:37:56] No, but lots of people don't like directness and getting to the core of issues. And so if I am that kind of person, they don't enjoy being around me.
[1:38:12] And that's true, you say, You think that's true of your son?
[1:38:16] Yeah. Okay.
[1:38:18] So if you're honest with your son, he'll abandon you?
[1:38:22] Yeah. Okay.
[1:38:27] When was the last time you were honest and direct with your son?
[1:38:35] Last November. he asked me if I had a copy of our divorce agreement out of nowhere and I was really surprised by that and because his mom wanted to come to the United States and needed to prove that we were no longer married. And I said, please don't do that. Don't let her ruin your life. Like by jumping into yours right now. And he basically, for the first time ever hung up the phone on me.
[1:39:21] Okay. Okay.
[1:39:27] And then what happened?
[1:39:28] And so I was, no, he rarely answers the phone, even when I regularly call. So I didn't call him back at that time because I knew what was, but then later, you know, I would send him messages and then I started calling again. So we got, you know, back in a more non-confrontational discussions within, I guess, about six weeks.
[1:39:57] Okay. And did you bring up the issue with his mother again?
[1:40:02] No. Obviously, a lightning rod with him, so no. Okay.
[1:40:08] And why do you think it's a lightning rod with him?
[1:40:12] Because his perception of his mom is completely different than mine. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope.
[1:40:19] That's not it. Sorry to be annoying and assertive, but that's not it.
[1:40:24] All right.
[1:40:26] How many conversations have you had with your son about how the woman you say is rampantly destructive had so much dominion over him when he was a kid?
[1:40:35] Yes, that's the conversation I mull over in my head over and over.
[1:40:38] Okay, so you understand you can't have the conversation about how destructive his mother is before owning up to your central role in giving her power over his life.
[1:40:50] Yeah.
[1:40:51] You're going completely out of sequence. i mean can you imagine some guy feeds his kids poisonous substances over the course of their childhood and then as adults they they say i think i'm gonna have some of this and you're like oh my god that's that's poison you can't eat that that would be insane.
[1:41:14] Stuff on so then that particular time maybe my presentation wasn't good but it was the time i was.
[1:41:20] No, no, no, that's no, no. Because you understand what I'm saying, though, right?
[1:41:29] Yes.
[1:41:30] You can't just drop the M-O-A-B, literally the mother of all bombs, on your son saying, oh, by the way, your mother's completely toxic and destructive, and you can't have her in your life, when you sent him over as a kid for years.
[1:41:47] Right.
[1:41:48] You understand? You can't do it that way.
[1:41:51] So how do I work into that?
[1:41:52] I don't know. Do you understand you can't do it that way?
[1:41:55] Yes.
[1:41:57] Because you're distancing yourself from what you did.
[1:42:01] Right.
[1:42:04] You're lecturing him like you're some stranger.
[1:42:08] No, no, the conversation I want to have with him is that. And I have had a little bit of the conversation.
[1:42:15] No, no, I'm trying to get you to understand why he hung up on you. And you keep jumping to other topics. do you understand why he hung up on you yes okay explain it to me like i'm three years old.
[1:42:32] Because you cannot start with the worst of all situations that you're blaming somebody else without taking culpability to all your actions leading up to that.
[1:42:45] Right you can't say to someone this person is immoral and destructive when you handed that person oh well you had kids with that person and then handed that those kids over to that person for years and then you can't just say well that person is really toxic and destructive right because then he's like the wires cross right right so that is not having an honest conversation that's why he hung up on you because you were lying, because you had absented yourself, you chose to give this woman dominion over children.
[1:43:29] Yes.
[1:43:29] Who did that?
[1:43:30] I did.
[1:43:31] You did. Who chose to continue giving this woman dominion over children?
[1:43:39] I did.
[1:43:40] Who chose to say, I can't stand living with this woman, but the nine-year-old's going to be fine?
[1:43:47] Yep. You. Yeah.
[1:43:50] Now you have that conversation with your son, then maybe you can have the other conversation later. But you can't absent yourself from all the decisions you made as a father and then just blame your wife, your ex-wife. That's why he hung up, I assume.
[1:44:11] Sure, sure.
[1:44:13] So why are you still blaming her?
[1:44:18] I'm not. i realize it's it's it's lots of bad decisions and regrets i have on my side.
[1:44:28] Okay so you've you've had for many years thought about your bad decisions, and how have you communicated those bad decisions to your children Well.
[1:44:44] I have had the discussion with my daughter specifically about me letting her live with her mom.
[1:44:58] How old was your daughter when that happened?
[1:45:02] She was 17.
[1:45:06] And this is when she was heading, oh, she'd come back from the States at this point, right?
[1:45:10] Yeah, she'd come back from the States at that point.
[1:45:13] Okay, so you had a conversation.
[1:45:14] She was starting to see psychologists.
[1:45:16] Okay, so you had a conversation with your daughter when she was 17 and still living with your mother about your own bad decisions as a father.
[1:45:25] Yes.
[1:45:26] Okay. And how did that go?
[1:45:28] Yeah. Um, it, it was, uh, um, I, I don't think it, well, I, I can't say I could see her change in view towards me at all. And, but I do, I think it was around the same conversation where, you know, She did kind of express some self-loathing about herself and how her and her mom fight all the time, and that she didn't like herself because of that. I guess that was one of the more heartfelt conversations we've ever had.
[1:46:16] Because, you know, I could see the pain she was in.
[1:46:21] Okay.
[1:46:23] But I don't know if it had any lasting effect.
[1:46:28] What did your daughter say about herself, about the self-loathing?
[1:46:36] Well, she actually, around that time, and what prompted going to see a psychologist is that she attempted suicide also. Oh, my gosh.
[1:46:54] What age?
[1:46:55] 17.
[1:46:56] Oh, my gosh.
[1:46:57] By taking pills. And I know she doesn't like having no social life, living in a basement. All of her friends are on the internet kind of situation. Who wouldn't? Her physical self-image, she wasn't a fan of, of course.
[1:47:24] And does she work no.
[1:47:27] And i've even suggested you know she's bilingual so she could get quite a few jobs.
[1:47:32] Easily no but i assume that her mother's paying all the bills right yes.
[1:47:36] Okay and you know yeah and.
[1:47:41] Have you um offered and i'm not trying to solve the problems in your life obviously i I can't do that, but I'm just curious about these things. Have you said to her... I'm going to buy you a condo, but, you know, so that you can move out.
[1:48:02] No.
[1:48:04] Because she can't move out without any money, right? Right, right. Have you said, I will...
[1:48:16] I did offer several times for her to come live with us, you know, live with me, I guess I would say, before I was married.
[1:48:23] I'm sorry, how old were you then? Oh, was she then?
[1:48:25] Oh, 17. Actually, I mean, I even said that. I mean, as soon as, you know, I said that before she went to live with my sister. I said that after. That was a fairly common thing I offer. Just come live with, you know, me and your brother.
[1:48:41] Right.
[1:48:42] She never would do it.
[1:48:44] Okay. Would you, could you offer her, you know, maybe two grand a month or whatever it takes to start living outside the mom's home?
[1:48:55] Yeah. I think I could figure out a way to do that. Okay.
[1:49:00] I mean, that might help, right? Yeah. Get her out from that. Yes.
[1:49:04] Yes.
[1:49:05] Because right now she's, I mean, she's barely existing, right?
[1:49:10] Yeah. I mean, honestly, I don't know what it is right now. It's been three years. Right.
[1:49:14] Okay.
[1:49:15] And I'm even wondering, you know, we're going to go over there in a few months, and I want to try to meet her, but I'm not even sure.
[1:49:26] Can you not find her on the internet? She's not got any social media. I mean, she said she's online all the time, right?
[1:49:31] Yeah, she never gave me her profile, so I have an old, old Facebook thing, but there's nothing in it anymore.
[1:49:39] But, I mean...
[1:49:40] Trying to get information from my son.
[1:49:43] No, sorry, but you could find her, right?
[1:49:48] I honestly don't know.
[1:49:51] Well, have you tried?
[1:49:55] No, I don't even know where to start. My ex is pretty good when she wants to have hiding. I know where they lived last time, and that would be the first thing I will do when I go over there.
[1:50:10] No, no, I'm just talking about typing your daughter's name into a search engine and trying to find her social media stuff.
[1:50:16] Have no i i've tried that oh.
[1:50:19] And you can't find her.
[1:50:20] Yeah yeah and.
[1:50:21] Can you find old stuff.
[1:50:23] I i can find i know one of her old facebook accounts and that's all i'm able to find got.
[1:50:30] It all right so she's no you can't find her by name and location or middle like name middle name location anything like that right right okay.
[1:50:40] And whether she's using you know you know i don't even know what she calls herself in Chinese if she goes by that.
[1:50:49] Got it.
[1:50:50] She did change her last name to her mom's name. Okay. And used that last time I saw.
[1:50:56] Okay. All right. So I'm sorry for your wife to have to sit through this. My apologies. I hope this hasn't been too unpleasant. It's probably stuff you know before, but I'm sorry for that as a whole. But I think I know the temper. I think I know the temper stuff. Okay.
[1:51:19] So, this is to your husband. When was the last time you had a conflict where both people benefited in the outcome? Both people were better off. It was what they call win-win, right?
[1:51:33] Yeah. I think my wife and I often do that.
[1:51:37] Okay. Can you give me an example?
[1:51:39] It's that both of us win in the end, right? We start off conflicting with our views or attitudes, but in the end, we figure it out.
[1:51:47] Okay. Okay, and can you give me an example? I'm not disagreeing with you, of course. I just want to make sure I understand.
[1:51:58] Let's see. Well, just yesterday we were talking about a different career she might want to take, and she was, I want to go down this path, and I thought that wasn't a really good path, And so we talked about it and exchanged our ideas about it. And I think in the end, we each understood each other's perspective and kind of agreed on where to go next on that subject.
[1:52:34] Okay, but that's not a conflict with you. So I'm talking about a conflict with you.
[1:52:41] Conflict with me. Just like at the beginning, I was talking about the example that hot day when I go out and he asked me, why are you going out in the middle of a hot day like that? That kind of conflict. And I started asking him why he asked me that question. And with that attitude, I feel like I'm in a police station and police. police asked me why you do you did that you did something wrong why you did that some that kind of feeling right it it it okay you get irritated that kind of feeling i mean a police right accuse something i something wrong i did something wrong right so but he after i asking me why you did that why you asked me this question and i and we talking and talking and after all i find out Now, why he asked me that question? Because he worry about me because this is too hot. You go out and too hot make you too hot and too tired. He worry about me. He take care about me.
[1:53:53] That's why he asking this question. So his mind is okay. His intention was good willing, but he always expressing something. Something, I cannot feel his goodwill, good feeling, taking over.
[1:54:10] Well, of course, it's not particularly complimentary to say to a woman in her 50s, you don't know when to go outside.
[1:54:19] Yeah.
[1:54:20] I mean, that's what's strange, right? It's not, well, he cares about me and he doesn't want me to get too hot. And it's like, but that's what you do with a three-year-old, not a woman in her 50s.
[1:54:32] Yeah.
[1:54:32] You know, you really need to take a jacket. It could rain.
[1:54:35] Oh, yeah, something like that, yeah.
[1:54:37] Right? So this is not something that is a place of caring because it's kind of, sorry, it's kind of insulting to say you don't know when is a good time to go outside. Sorry, go ahead.
[1:54:50] Yeah, but he intends to ask me this question he's not talking about. He wants to talk about, I'm worried about you, I take care about you, I don't want to be too hard, too hard time.
[1:55:01] No, no, but that's not a compliment.
[1:55:03] But I cannot feel anything about his goodwill. That is the problem. Right.
[1:55:08] No, so saying, I don't want you to be too hot is not something you say to an adult.
[1:55:15] Yeah.
[1:55:15] Unless the adult has mental handicaps, right?
[1:55:18] Correct.
[1:55:19] I mean, you're a grown woman, you're a mother, you're a wife, you're an adult, you know when it's okay to go outside, right?
[1:55:27] Yeah, that's right, correct.
[1:55:29] So this is not coming from a place where he's treating you as the adult that you are. Does that make sense?
[1:55:38] Yes. Oh, yeah, correct.
[1:55:40] Okay, so where's it coming from?
[1:55:44] Hmm.
[1:55:47] Good question.
[1:55:52] I mean, I can tell you if you want, because we've been talking for a long time.
[1:55:56] Yeah, why don't you go ahead.
[1:55:57] Yeah, it's your daughter. You're trying to reparent your wife as if she was your daughter. Because it also has to do with going outside, which you desperately want your daughter to do. You're trying to correct mistakes with your daughter, I assume, with your wife, but there's a lot of tension in that, which is why the tension comes out as aggression. That's my guess. That's my guess. Because you understand that you're not treating your wife as an adult if you're saying, I need to tell you when to go outside. That's what you would say to a little kid.
[1:56:36] Yeah. And there are some times that I recognize that after the fact. And honestly, I feel kind of loathsome towards myself when I realize.
[1:56:45] So you feel kind of what?
[1:56:48] Negative towards myself when I realize that's what I did. Because I don't want a child. One of the reasons I love her so much is because she's a very confident, intelligent woman. woman and so when i realize sometimes i realize that i treated her not that way that i i think negatively about myself as a result.
[1:57:16] And how are you processing this is to the husband how are you processing or how are you dealing with or how are you as a family dealing with the virtual death of your daughter. In that she has no life, she has no future, she has no prospects. Well, and she's not talking to you and there's no prospect. You don't know where she lives. You don't know what she's doing. I assume that your son knows whether she's alive or not, but your son has virtually no contact with her. She's been abandoned to the pathologies of your ex-wife. And how's that processing going? Like, well, what are your thoughts about that? Because that's one heck of a burden for a father to carry. It's a huge failure, right?
[1:58:03] Yeah. well when i when we you know first decided to leave taiwan and i had that discussion my last discussion sorry the we.
[1:58:16] Is you and you gotta you know the story i don't right so.
[1:58:19] I'm sorry the we is you and your wife and they're leaving taiwan is when three years ago three.
[1:58:24] Three years ago. Okay.
[1:58:26] And I got to, you know, speak to my daughter a final time. And after that, I guess in my mind, I was not able to, you know, I feared that I would never be able to talk with her again or she wouldn't contact me. And that's what happened. And that I had made all these mistakes that I couldn't correct, or I didn't know how to correct at this point, if they could even be corrected. I did.
[1:59:05] And since I couldn't figure out any action to make her situation better, because if I said, you know, then I tried to just. Say if she doesn't want to see me, that's her choice, and there's nothing I can do about it. And I tried to accept that and move on.
[1:59:41] Okay, but it's not about you. The grieving is not fundamentally about the loss of contact with your daughter, which is tragic enough. the grieving is about your daughter's loss of contact with reality or a future or a life.
[2:00:02] Yes, and that there was nothing I could do about it at this point to improve the situation.
[2:00:09] How do you know?
[2:00:11] Because I don't know where she is or how to contact her or if I could contact her if she had...
[2:00:19] Oh my God, man. It's driving me a little crazy. How do you know any of that's true? I mean, obviously within the law, but you know that there's people who can find people, right? You make a phone call and you find some private eye in Taiwan and say, I need to find this person. And you can maybe prove to him that you're the father, so you have something. I don't know why this is rubber-bone stuff.
[2:00:40] Okay.
[2:00:41] I mean, come on. You're an intelligent man. Are you telling me that if someone offered you $10 million to find your daughter, you'd say, no, it's impossible?
[2:00:52] Right.
[2:00:53] Right?
[2:00:54] Right.
[2:00:55] Now, you may choose to not hire a private investigator, you might choose to not find a way to find her, you might choose to do all of that, but please, don't tell me you can't. This rubber-bone stuff is crazy.
[2:01:10] Mickey.
[2:01:13] Because in the past you said, well, there's nothing I can do, and you look back and what do you say?
[2:01:19] There was something I could do.
[2:01:21] Right. And have you not learned this lesson, that you keep telling yourself there's things you can't do, and then later you're like, damn, there was 10,000 things I could have done. And now, in your 60s, you're saying, there's nothing I can do. I just don't want you to call me back in 10 years. Oh my God, there was something I could do, right?
[2:01:37] Right.
[2:01:37] So you go rubber bones, and you just tell yourself there's nothing you can do, because of your childhood. Because when you were a kid, guess what? There was nothing you could do. But you're a grown, relatively wealthy adult with all the resources of the modern world, you could find her. I'm not saying whether you should, and certainly don't break the law in doing so, but you could. Now, let's turn to your lovely bride here.
[2:02:05] Yes.
[2:02:06] Why are you not telling him this?
[2:02:15] Yes you why are you.
[2:02:16] Why do you let him go what they call rubber bones that probably doesn't mean much in mandarin bow or whatever language you speak but why do you let him say oh woe is me there is these terrible things and there's nothing that i can possibly do and why don't you say uh listen white boy there's stuff you can do right oh.
[2:02:37] You mean i'm encouraging you why don't you tell Tell me, call my bullshit out and tell me, no, you can do things. Oh, well, I never met his daughter, but I heard about what he described, what his daughter did to him or the attitude to him. I found out it's not just she is a victim from her mother or her father or something. I think she chooses it.
[2:03:21] She chooses this life because she thinks she likes it or she feels comfortable or something. And another one part is I think my lovely husband, he is a father of his daughter, but he don't understand his daughter at all, even what kind of things she likes, when she wants to eat something, when she wants to go out of something. He does not quite understand her. He doesn't know how to control this kind of personality. He's a daughter. He doesn't know how to control her.
[2:04:10] Yeah. I mean, part of it is she's a grown woman. I shouldn't be trying to control her like you said.
[2:04:16] Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. Let's go back to your lovely wife here.
[2:04:20] Yeah.
[2:04:20] You did a wonderful, wonderful job of not answering my question. You almost had me. You almost had me. Okay. Do you know why you didn't answer my question?
[2:04:33] Okay. Okay. I don't know. Okay.
[2:04:37] My question was, why don't you tell your husband he can do things when he says he can't? And you say, because I don't like his daughter.
[2:04:48] Oh, because you mean the problem of his daughter or any other problem?
[2:04:54] Okay, so the issue was, he says, I can't find my daughter, and I say, yes, you can. Now, if he says to you, well, I can't find my daughter, you would say to him, if you were telling the truth, yes, you can. Now, I don't want you to because I don't like your daughter, but you certainly can find her. But instead, you don't tell him that he can find his daughter if he wants.
[2:05:20] Oh, no. No, I didn't tell him that if you can find her, you can find her. Yes, yes, I did tell him.
[2:05:29] Oh, you did tell him that he can find her.
[2:05:30] Yes, and we did together, you know, finding her before the SMS and some Facebook or something. We did together. We did send message, but they got... Say hello. And when her birthday, we say hello. And when is...
[2:05:51] I'm sorry, I'm confused now. I thought that you couldn't find her.
[2:05:56] We couldn't find anything that had any response. She didn't respond. She didn't. She didn't respond. She didn't answer.
[2:06:02] Oh, so she might have changed her phone number.
[2:06:05] Yeah, or Facebook account. She had more than one. Or even the WhatsApp. He just blocked it, you know, everything. She just don't answer.
[2:06:13] But in terms of being able to find her, say, her address, right? There's ways, obviously, to do everything legally, as I repeat, right? But there's ways to find people.
[2:06:26] Yeah, there is a way you can find someone, yes, I'm sure, pretty sure, like a private detective or something, yeah.
[2:06:35] So, this is to your wife, or to the lovely lady here, why wouldn't you suggest that? Yeah.
[2:06:44] Why didn't you suggest that?
[2:06:50] I think I know why.
[2:06:52] Okay.
[2:06:53] Because you don't like her, so you don't want him to put much effort into finding her, because she's probably going to make your life worse for a while.
[2:07:02] Well, yeah, I'm pretty... I would agree. Yeah, because I don't like...
[2:07:08] That's manipulative.
[2:07:10] Okay.
[2:07:12] No, that's manipulative. Right, so you would rather your husband think that he can't find her rather than tell him that he can find her, which would be the truth. Because if he finds her, you're concerned, I think, and I'm not disagreeing with you, maybe you're right, but you're concerned that if your husband finds his daughter, that this brings his dysfunctional daughter, his dysfunctional ex, back into your life. your lives, and costs you peace of mind and happiness.
[2:07:46] Oh, correct.
[2:07:47] Okay. So hang on, hang on. So the conversation to have is direct. The conversation to have is, look, the problem is not that we can't find her. The problem is I don't want you to find her because I'm frightened of what that will do to our family. But not just, oh, yes, no, we can't find her. Like, that's not direct. That's avoiding the issue. Does that make sense? And I think that's the level that I would suggest working at. Don't avoid the issue by pretending that you can't find her. Confront the issue by saying, okay, let's say we can find her tomorrow, right? Is that good or bad? Is that right or wrong? Is that going to help or hurt? And that is a really, I don't know what the answer is to that question, right? I don't know because it's very complex, right?
[2:08:51] Right.
[2:08:52] And then the question is, why do you want to find her and meet her and talk to her? And what do you want to say? In other words, if you've wronged someone, and I think that this young woman has been very wronged, And I'm not saying she doesn't have any responsibility as an adult, she does, but she was, as far as I can understand it, largely... a single child to a very disturbed mother, right? And she didn't have as much contact even with her sibling as would have been healthy, right? Now, both of you grew up with siblings, right?
[2:09:36] Yes. Okay.
[2:09:37] Oh, no.
[2:09:37] No, my wife's only child.
[2:09:40] Only child, okay. So as an only child, you know that if there are problems in the family, it tends to all land on the shoulders of the single child, right?
[2:09:53] If there are problems in your family then you have to deal with it. Yeah, my family relationship was like that. I deal with it.
[2:10:07] Right. So your husband couldn't stand living, with his wife and then and and that's him in his late 30s early 40s or something around there so as a middle-aged man with independence and and money and maturity and all the resources really known to man he couldn't stand living with her and so a 12 year old little girl had to go live with her.
[2:10:45] And she had no real siblings to share the load with. I'm sure that the mother cut her off socially, partly through the obesity, partly through other things. So this little girl grew up in a very dysfunctional household and then was thrown as a kind of sacrificial offering to a very disturbed and dysfunctional and dangerous mother.
[2:11:13] And that was really tragic and so saying well she just chose this no she didn't choose she didn't choose the environment and as the single child of a deeply disturbed mother and i went through that phase for quite a few years in my early teens in that i was the only person with my mother no siblings no extended family because my brother was gone for many years so So, I have some knowledge of what it's like to be left alone with a crazy person. And as you say, you know, I mean, did some serious, serious damage, right? So, whether it's good to have the daughter or not in the life is the question to have. Obviously, if you can do good with the daughter, that's a good thing. but there are significant dangers and risks as well in getting involved in this because the highly disturbed mother has had more than a quarter century of domination over the daughter because of course mothers and daughters have a particularly close relationship often for the better and in this case clearly for the worse.
[2:12:26] So, there are pluses and minuses, and I guess the question is, what is motivating you, the husband, what is motivating you to get back in touch with your daughter? If it's guilt, that's not going to be helpful. If there's a plan, if you've consulted with experts, if you've talked to psychologists, if you've talked to people who specialize in these kinds of situations, if you have a plan, right? But if you're just like, well, I want to get in contact basically because I feel bad about the past and there's no particular plan or process, then all you're doing is recreating the same kind of rejection you had as a child. So you say, well, everyone, my relationship with just about everyone is tenuous. And it's like, well, you know that that's because that's what you're used to and that's what you choose unconsciously and so on, right? So you had a cold and rejecting mother who never bonded with you, right? And then you ended up with a cold and rejecting wife who never bonded with you.
[2:13:28] So that's a pattern, right? Now, it seems like you've broken this pattern. Great, with your new wife, wonderful to hear. But you can't just go around contacting your daughter with no plan. What are you going to do? What are you going to offer? How are you going to get her free? And what are the odds? And I don't know the answer to this. What are the odds that a woman who was largely raised by an extremely toxic single mother and who has never dated and never really held a job and she's in her mid-twenties, what are the odds of recovery? How many developmental windows have been missed? I don't know the answer to this. I personally would not put a lot of money on it, but then the smaller the odds, the better the plan is needed, right?
[2:14:23] Because if you just sort of go back into this, oh, well, I contacted her again, and, you know, for why? Are you trying to make yourself feel better, or are you recreating the rejection of your early childhood? Are you setting yourself up to be rejected, which is also going to be costly to your daughter? If you genuinely care about your daughter, and of course you do, you genuinely care about your daughter, you don't wander into this situation having failed in many ways for a long time with no particular plan or knowledge or expertise on how to succeed. You know, there's this funny old meme about video games, about this guy, I'm sorry to trivialize it in this way, but it's this guy who is, you know, confidently striding into a room, and it's like, me going into the boss fight again, with exactly the same strengths and powers and no change in strategy.
[2:15:14] Yes.
[2:15:14] So you're trying to save your daughter, which you have not been able to do since she was 12, right?
[2:15:21] Right.
[2:15:23] Right, which is 14 years ago. And why and what is the plan and what are you trying to do? What's going to be different? Have you consulted with experts? Do you know what the goal is, what the plan is? What do you have to offer? Or are you just going back in and maybe your wife, your current wife is trying to protect you from this by saying, yeah, can't find her. Yeah, that's tough.
[2:15:51] I do think there's some of that.
[2:15:55] But you need to have that direct conversation.
[2:15:58] Yes.
[2:15:58] And maybe she is not recoverable now. But you want to give it every conceivable chance. So you would consult with a psychologist who's got specialization in family alienation. Listen, you're certainly not the... And I don't mean to trivialize your suffering, but I want you to feel like you're not alone. You are far from the first man... to have a toxic ex turn the children against him.
[2:16:21] Yeah.
[2:16:22] This is as common as dirt. And there are specialists who know the best approach you can take. It does come down to the free will of your daughter, of course, right? Because the time when you could have overridden her free will is eight plus years in the past, right? Because as a child, you could have overridden her free will through parental authority. You could have said, no, you are coming to live with me. I'm sorry if you kick and scream. I'm sorry that you're upset, I really do I'm not the monster you think I am I'm not a great, I'm not a perfect guy but I'm not the monster you think I am, you're going to come and live with me and the courts have agreed like that time is 8 plus years in the past, right? so now you have to approach her with no authority, and I don't know, of course I don't know where she's at it's obviously not a good place, and And to consult with experts on this, how do I regain the trust of my adult children when they've been poisoned against me, if that's what happened by the X, right? So there are people who've had real special. I mean, you wouldn't just go and try to extract some kidnapped victim without military expertise, right?
[2:17:36] All right.
[2:17:37] And you're trying to go and rescue your daughter with...
[2:17:45] a consistent record of failing to be able to do this and no particular difference in approach, and i'm concerned that you're doing it out of guilt and it's just a what i call the sign of the box a thing in my book real-time relationships just kind of like a repetition compulsion, i'm going to try and oh look i got rejected again and relationships are tenuous and and so on and it's the same thing that's going on with your son right your care and concern should be for your grandchildren right yeah what is going to happen to your son's relationship if he's hidden these catastrophic dysfunctions in the family she's marrying into.
[2:18:35] Yes.
[2:18:38] Because you're going to have to stand up at this wedding when the question is asked, right? And the question is, it's an important question. Is there any here among us who have any reason to believe this marriage should not go on? Speak now or forever hold your peace. That's important, right?
[2:19:02] And you keep taking strategies other than telling the truth and being direct. You say, well, but people reject me. Well, of course, you've partly conditioned your children to reject you for telling the truth because you have withheld information from them, right? And you have, you say, well, I don't want to use my son as a weapon, or I don't want to use my son as an object the same way that my wife is using my daughter as a manipulation or as a tool. Or you say, well, I don't want to do that. But that's using your son to feel better about yourself and saying, well, I'm not like my wife and I feel superior and it's so on, right? But the question isn't what benefits you or makes you feel better or makes you feel superior, makes you feel morally justified. The question is what's better for your children. Yeah. and if you had focused solely on what was best for your children.
[2:20:01] You would have fought for custody, for the custody you'd agreed with. But what do they see? What do they see in their life? What do they see? Who wins? Honorable guys or bullies? Who wins, men or women? Who wins, the crazy people or the sane people? Who's in charge? Who runs things? Who runs the world? Who runs their world?
[2:20:29] Well, they see that the bad people, ride right over the good people.
[2:20:45] Thank you for watching. Stefan?
[2:20:46] Yes, sir.
[2:20:47] So there are people that deal with this kind of issue directly and it's called a family alienation psychologist or something of that nature okay.
[2:21:02] I assume so I've not looked into this but it's such a tragically common issue that there would be specialists who would help with this you.
[2:21:14] Think so okay.
[2:21:17] Now, if you do, see, when you get involved in these kinds of things, you want to get involved with as much knowledge and skill and self-knowledge as possible. Because the last thing you want to do is to hand another victory to your wife and cause, right, this is very dangerous to your daughter. Like, I want to point this out, right? This is all very dangerous to your daughter. because if you approach it in the wrong way, and she then rejects you then she is running out of excuses for her life and she's going to end up with more self-loathing oh my dad came to help me and I spit on him and I rejected him and you know then that's going to be even more toxic for her so you have to approach this in my opinion reunion with the very best possible chance of success now if you do approach this with an expert with training with preparation with whatever you need to do if you do approach this, and your daughter then rejects you then while there will be sorrow there won't be i could have done it better i should have done it better or there won't be well i guess i just can't ever tell the truth in a relationship because blah blah blah but regarding this because you're going to Taiwan in a couple of months, right?
[2:22:37] Yeah, two.
[2:22:38] And part of the plan is to look up your daughter, right?
[2:22:40] Yes.
[2:22:41] Okay. So, for heaven's sakes, you need to prepare.
[2:22:46] Yeah, I need some skills, which I clearly don't have.
[2:22:49] Right. And so, one of the problems with guilt is it's kind of narcissistic.
[2:22:55] Yes. Right? Take that part.
[2:22:58] Yeah, no, I get it, right? And that's why the guilt ends when it stops being about you. So what is the guilt there for? Is the guilt there, oh my god, I'm just such a bad guy, and well, I guess I'll try one more time, and you know, but it's probably not gonna work. That's all about you, right? So guilt is, I should have done something better, I didn't do that which benefited my daughter the most, so the way I break that cycle is doing that which benefits my daughter the most. Focusing, the guilt is, we often collapse in on ourselves with regards to guilt, but guilt is not there for you. Guilt is there to help you make better decisions with regards to other people. Right, so you feeling bad about your daughter is not there for you to feel better with regards to something in you. It is to put your very, very best foot forward trying to help your daughter as much as humanly possible. And if that fails, well, then you will still have regret about the past, but you will certainly have the relief of having given it your very best shot.
[2:24:08] But you can't just wander into this, in a sense, enemy-occupied territory. laboratory, you know, dum-de-dum, let's make a call, right?
[2:24:17] Right, right, right.
[2:24:18] Because that hasn't worked, right?
[2:24:19] Yes.
[2:24:20] So that's one issue. With regards to your son, he still has a relationship with his mother, to your knowledge, right?
[2:24:29] Yes, some.
[2:24:30] Okay, well, some is something, right? So he still has a relationship with his mother, and he needs to be a good Christian and a good person, and tell the truth about the family history to his fiancee. Now, this is extremely dishonorable if he hasn't, because he's gotten this woman off the market, right? They got engaged over a year ago, right?
[2:25:01] Yes.
[2:25:01] So he is making all of these promises and building up all of these expectations in her.
[2:25:08] Right.
[2:25:09] Now, if he has done this on a falsehood... Well, that is very dishonorable, and that's a significant sin. I mean, you could put it directly, right? Thou shalt not bear false witness. Now, false witness, you know, if your wife looks not fantastic in a particular dress, and you say, oh, you know, that's nice, or, you know, my daughter made me a quiche for the first day the other day, and she's like, how is it? I'm like, it's okay. It actually was, you know, like eating chalk. But, you know, and I sort of gave some suggestions and so on. So, I don't know, sort of little white lies or something like that, just a little bit a social lubricant, I don't consider that bearing false witness. The word witness is important. It doesn't say thou shalt not tell a lie, it says thou shalt not bear false witness, which means in matters of import, in matters of particularly legal matters, that's what witness means, to be a witness in a court case. It means in matters of great import, of great morality, and in particular of legal matters, you must tell the truth. And marriage is a legal matter. So he must tell the The truth. She cannot find out later that he withheld the craziness from her, because that's repeating the pattern that your wife did to you, right?
[2:26:22] Right.
[2:26:24] So he has to tell the truth. And the reason he has to tell the truth is, is A, thou shalt not bear false witness, but also B, so that she knows he does not take blame or responsibility for his family's dysfunction, because he shouldn't. He didn't choose his family. Correct.
[2:26:41] Right? That's very important.
[2:26:44] It's very important. That's why it's important to say this, right? Because then he can say, yes, you know, my parents have these dysfunctions, these are the problems, my sister has these dysfunctions, you know i've done this work and that work and and that way she knows but but if he's hiding it it's because he feels somewhat responsible or that he's going to be judged for it he's still enmeshed in it and then it's going to play out in the marriage.
[2:27:10] Right and to be honest like i said i don't know where that conversation has it happened or not you know he may have already done that i really don't know but it is important that he does do it.
[2:27:24] Well okay so let's say he's had that conversation but he hasn't told you about it then part of that conversation is i'm incredibly distant from my father i didn't even tell him i've met a girl i only told him after we'd gotten engaged i am not at all close to my father just so you know yes okay so that's important right so my guess is that he hasn't had that conversation or he's minimized it or he's He's brushed past it. Because if I was marrying into a family like that, I would want a very close assessment of that family for myself. And she hasn't done that. Which means she doesn't know how to protect herself or he's lying to her. Neither of which is a good sign. So with regards to escalation.
[2:28:19] Mm-hmm.
[2:28:22] It's hard for you to know how to get your way without escalation.
[2:28:29] Because with regards to your ex-wife, it was only after you threatened her that she sent your daughter to your sister in America, right? So, how do you get your way without escalating? and I think that this is how I mean certainly how your parents got their way was through escalation and you try to be nice you try to be nice you try to be nice to your ex-wife you try to be nice and what happens? You just get taken advantage of. So the only way to get your way is you have to escalate, I mean, who listens to you if you're not raising your wife? Your voice. Now, you have your current wife. It sounds like she does, which is great, but it's an old habit, right?
[2:29:18] It's a bad habit, yes.
[2:29:19] Well, no, I don't want to judge it. It is what it is, right? And it certainly had survival mechanisms, right? Because when you grow up in an aggressive family, eventually you just have to raise your levels of aggression, otherwise you get completely erased, and it's almost like then you become like your daughter, right? Your daughter's an example of somebody who didn't fight back yet. And that's probably... So that's the path that goes if you don't fight back. And I'm sure if you think back into your teenage years, you can think back to situations where you started to really push back against your parents, right? Is that fair?
[2:30:08] I didn't yes just disagreeing with my mom was a was a fight yes.
[2:30:13] Yeah you you fought with your mom you disagreed with your mom and then eventually you cut her off right yeah okay so you fought back now your daughter is an example of what happens when you don't fight back right, and so the fact that you fought back and got punchy is how you survived so when you say well it's just a bad habit like you're just rushing straight to this judgment thing without being curious. Please don't do that. That's why I said I don't like this. I was being stupid. I was naive. I, you know, I didn't think. And like, that's all just insulting yourself to avoid self-knowledge. It's coming to a moral conclusion without understanding anything about the motives. So if you say, well, it's a bad habit for me to escalate. I'm like, no, it was a life-saving habit. It was a life-saving skill for you to escalate.
[2:31:06] Don't need it now. I mean, you needed it as a kid. You clearly needed it with your ex, because your daughter could be gravely ill by now if you hadn't at least for some time got her weight under control, right? So you needed that with your ex. You don't need it now. And, you know, in the next 20 years or the remaining 20 plus years of your life, maybe it's just time to put down the weaponry. because you're not in a situation of combat anymore. Now, maybe you'll be fighting for the soul of your daughter, but that's up to experts to teach you, but that probably isn't going to come from escalating either. It's going to come from something else, because your daughter and your ex fight all the time, so that escalation isn't solving anything, right?
[2:31:54] Yes.
[2:31:55] So, I think it's just time to say, what if I am soft and gentle, and tell my wife what's really going on in my heart, rather than escalating and snapping, which is a habit that comes from the two most immoral women in my life, one unchosen, one chosen, my mother and my ex. So you can't treat your lovely new wife as if she's a child abuser and a dangerous manipulator. That's unfair and it's unjust to who she is, right?
[2:32:34] Definitely.
[2:32:35] So living in the present is tough because we have all these habits from the past. But living in the present is, I don't need to escalate, which is an automatic habit because for most of my life, most of your life, right? You had 18 years as a kid and 17 years with Crazy Girl, right? Right, so for most of your life, You've had to yell to be heard. You've had to intimidate to get any traction because nobody's into win-win relationships in your past, right? So don't treat her like she's a bad person because you married her because she's a good person. So trust that you don't need that anymore and be gentle. And if you have the urge to say, don't go out now, it's too hot, right? Say, I have the urge, what's the most honest thing you can say is, I have the urge to tell you, which is crazy, to not go outside because it's too hot, but because you're a grown, intelligent woman, that doesn't make any sense. But I'm just telling you, here's my urge. But you don't act it out.
[2:33:49] Right, right.
[2:33:50] You tell her, this is the real-time relationship thing. I have this bizarre urge to tell you to put a jacket on because it's cold, like you're four. Isn't that strange? Yeah. As opposed to, put a jacket on.
[2:34:05] I like the tool.
[2:34:07] Just be honest about the feelings and the impulse. Don't just act it out. That comes from your mother and your ex, I would assume. Does that make sense?
[2:34:17] Yes, sir.
[2:34:18] All right, all right, all right. Is there anything else you wanted to mention as we close this?
[2:34:23] The only thing is, you know, I've been listening to you for a long time, and when I was telling my wife first about you, I just couldn't remember how long it was, which came out first. Was it your writing for Douglas Casey or was it the story of your enslavement?
[2:34:42] I think the story of your enslavement was pretty early. I did do some work with Doug Casey, yeah, for sure. But I think the story of your enslavement was pretty early.
[2:34:48] Okay. So that's, I guess, when I...
[2:34:50] Oh, no, no, no. Actually, no, it was the Casey stuff. It was? Yes, it was the Casey stuff.
[2:34:55] When was that? Do you remember? What year?
[2:34:58] FDRpodcast.com. You could just do a search.
[2:34:59] Okay.
[2:35:00] Yeah, I think it was probably 09 or something like that.
[2:35:03] Or the Doug Casey ride. Okay, great. Well, Stefan, you know, I appreciate it. And I think my wife really does too, because she's the one. No, he understands the way you think and you accept the way he thinks. So listen to him. Very much, sir.
[2:35:18] You're very welcome. I hope you guys will keep me posted about how it's going. And please let me know what happens with your daughter.
[2:35:23] Okay, sure will.
[2:35:23] All the best, guys. Take care.
[2:35:25] Bye-bye. Bye-bye.
[2:35:26] Thank you. You're welcome.
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