Before listening to this call, you'll want to hear the conversation I had with the husband!
https://freedomain.com/transcript-my-wife-tried-to-send-me-to-jail-freedomain-call-in/
0:08 - Introduction to the Conversation
3:25 - Reflections on the Past
3:41 - Relationship Dynamics and Challenges
6:08 - The Night of the Accident
10:23 - Coping with Trauma
16:23 - Substance Use and Escapism
19:15 - The Impact of Alcohol and Drugs
28:32 - Childhood Influences
32:32 - Family Dynamics and Abuse
36:47 - The Weight of Past Trauma
44:49 - Attraction and Relationships
48:36 - Marriage and Financial Strain
51:22 - The Cracks Begin to Show
54:57 - Navigating Infidelity
1:11:08 - The Order of Protection
1:11:47 - Drug Use and Control
1:17:43 - The Road to Arrest
1:24:12 - After the Arrest
1:25:22 - Life in a Hotel
1:25:41 - Baker Acted
1:26:54 - Seeking Support
1:34:52 - The Cycle of Emotion
1:39:35 - Understanding Bad Decisions
1:44:09 - Relationships and Accountability
1:48:49 - Unpacking the Past
1:53:46 - Facing the Truth
1:59:49 - The Cost of Compliance
2:13:07 - The Path to Recovery
2:27:39 - Desiring Change
In this second part of the two-part call in, Stefan Molyneux engages in a deep and impactful conversation with a woman who has recently undergone significant personal changes, particularly related to her marriage and her traumatic past. The episode begins with the woman reflecting on the prior conversation with her ex-husband and discussing her feelings about how the dialogue was handled. She expresses mixed emotions, acknowledging the truth in Stefan's observations while also grappling with her own reactions to the conversation.
As they delve deeper, the woman reveals that she and her ex-husband have officially begun the divorce process. She recounts the emotional toll this has taken on her, describing the disappointment and feelings of self-reflection that have surfaced during this transitional period. Important insights arise as she analyzes her past relationship, discussing the issues she faced with her ex-husband, including the lack of openness about their histories and how judgmental attitudes affected their dynamic. She shares a personal narrative about a traumatic incident: a serious accident during her teenage years that left her with physical injuries and emotional scars. This event serves as a critical turning point in her life and is linked to her struggles with substance use, specifically regarding alcohol and marijuana, as coping mechanisms for her pain and trauma.
Stefan and the caller discuss the complexities of her past relationship further, with her ex-husband being portrayed as both charismatic yet controlling, leading to an unhealthy interplay in their marriage. The conversation touches on the idea that her father’s abusive behavior had a profound influence on her choices in partners, leading her to repeat cycles of toxicity and self-deprecation. She candidly discusses the emotional and physical abuse she endured at home, highlighting her father’s controlling and judgmental nature.
As the conversation progresses, she candidly discusses the ways in which substance abuse has intertwined with her story. Starting to use alcohol at a shockingly young age, she reflects on the habits formed in her adolescence, revealing a cycle of dependence that has been hard to break. Between discerning her need to escape her traumatic experiences and the social pressures she faced, she acknowledges the difficulties in managing her relationships, particularly with men.
Stefan challenges her to consider how her upbringing has shaped her relationship patterns, pushing her to reflect on the excuses she makes for her father and, by extension, her choices in men. The call takes a poignant turn as she examines her desire to have children and what that means in light of her background. She expresses a fear of repeating the cycle of childhood trauma she experienced, leading to an intense examination of her own substance use and the clarion call for emotional recovery.
The discussion navigates the difficult terrain of personal accountability, with Stefan inviting her to confront the roles her parents played in her life and the implications of those roles for her future. They explore her coping mechanisms and the detachment she feels from the world due to prolonged marijuana use. She openly acknowledges that breaking these habits will involve tremendous self-work and an enforced departure from her comfort zone.
Throughout the episode, there's an emphasis on moral clarity and the denormalization of her past experiences, urging her to replace old narratives of victimhood with empowerment and accountability. Towards the end of the call, there's an understanding that she needs to prioritize her healing and redefine her relationships with herself, her family, and prospective partners, underpinned by a newfound commitment to her own well-being.
The episode closes on a note of hopeful introspection, with the caller expressing a desire for personal growth and a healthier future, both for herself and for any potential children, ensuring that her experience does not cast a long shadow onto future generations. The candid exchanges highlight the complexity of healing from a traumatic past while recognizing the need for sincerity and morality in shaping better futures.
[0:00] Hi there, this is Stefan Molyneux. So just a note, this is the second part of a two-part conversation. The first is with the husband.
[0:08] That is the previous show to this one. And this one is with his wife. So don't listen to this one without listening to the husband's one first. I think the context is very important. So just go one show back if you're listening to this without listening to the husband's one before. And if you have listened to that, let's get started. Nice to meet you. I'm glad we're getting a chance to chat. always good to hear i guess both sides of the tale so um yeah what was it what was it like for you listening to the last convo and how do you think i did and what do you uh i'm sure there's tons to add to it so what do you think.
[0:43] Um i think your question of why did you call me was a very good one because i'm not entirely 100 sure um what my ex-husband was looking for as far as an outcome from your guys's conversation um i've listened to a probably three separate times now um, there's a lot for me to take away from it i think that you speak a lot about relationships in a way that i need to hear and um obviously my ego was offended at certain points and my feelings but i think ultimately what you had to say was true all.
[1:31] Right yeah it's a funny thing to hear other people talking about you right i mean i've had.
[1:36] This a couple of times in my life.
[1:37] Just by accident where.
[1:39] People didn't.
[1:40] Know and uh so i guess yeah that is a bit of a surreal thing to go through so when you say ex-husband has there been a big change did i miss something.
[1:49] Well he's moved out and we're not speaking and um you know he's gone through all the terms of divorce and so as far as i'm concerned we're on the pathway.
[2:05] Okay and when did that when did he move out.
[2:09] He moved out um the 23rd of november he spoke with you you know that right yeah no no of course yeah no no.
[2:19] I i'm aware of that i was just trying to place it in in the because i think when he first sent me the email he's like i'm on the brink of divorce but that of course.
[2:27] Was before i talked to him.
[2:29] So i'm sorry if i have i haven't obviously re-listened the whole three-hour thing though i did read the ai summer of it so i think i.
[2:35] Remember it fairly well.
[2:36] But yeah i just wanted to to know where things.
[2:39] Were so that's that's uh where we're at as far as right now he's still moved out um i am at the condo that my parents own i am paying the mortgage and um i believe we're on the path towards divorce right.
[2:56] And what are your feelings about all of that.
[3:01] Uh it's extremely disappointing and um, i feel like i have a lot to look at myself for um and there's it's more about how do i not repeat the same mistakes in the future that clearly did not work for me in the past that's where i'm at right now yeah.
[3:25] What's what's your analysis about how things went in the relationship obviously there was enough that went right to keep it going but what for you were the things that went wrong.
[3:41] Um right away having to hide or minimize details about each other's past um my ex-husband was very judgmental and unreceiving of um.
[4:05] Difficulties so you i mean you're hedging a lot and and the the terms are not i don't know what you mean by judgmental because judgmental can be a good thing right uh you know having judgments moral judgments and so on i'm not saying his were correct or perfect or anything but you know as a philosopher myself you know the gig is all about judging things you know is this true is this false is this good or bad right or wrong so judgmental it's sort of like it's one of these words women sometimes say controlling when he was like trying to give you good advice and so what what do you mean by judgmental give me in general i i prefer it to have example concrete examples rather than your interpretation if that makes sense.
[4:43] Yes um for example judgmental of my accident and um jumping to conclusions as far as what our intentions were and why we left my current boyfriend at the time's apartment and it was a very painful thing for me to go through and to be able to talk about it openly and vulnerably with my partner would have helped me tremendously with my healing.
[5:17] Okay, so sorry, judgmental about your accident, what does that mean?
[5:21] Uh it means that if i tried to speak on what exactly happened he would have an opinion that was negative towards it and what what.
[5:35] Aspect of what happened was he negative towards.
[5:37] The aspect of my friend and me leaving my boyfriend at the time's house and going to my house.
[5:51] Okay, sorry. I feel like I'm asking for open-ended questions and getting very short things in response. So just tell me the story of what happened the night of the accident, and then you can tell me where he had his issues, if you don't mind.
[6:08] I was 18, just graduated high school. we all were by we i mean my stoner crew that i hung out with all through high school um about five or six of us uh drinking listening to music having fun my boyfriend at the time lived with one of our very close friends and i spent a lot of my time over there, that close friend did not drive i did not drive my partner at the time was the only one who had a car so.
[6:48] How's partner different from boyfriend.
[6:49] Boyfriend boyfriend okay your.
[6:51] Boyfriend at the time okay.
[6:52] My boyfriend at the time sorry uh and he had work the next morning so we were all hanging out as a group my boyfriend at the time went to bed because he had work we all stayed up till about 3 a.m. in the morning. I'm going to derail. I blacked out, obviously, through the night. So a lot of what I know about what happened is from people telling me.
[7:19] Sorry, when you say you blacked out, you mean not from any partying, but because of the head injury with the accident?
[7:24] No, from drinking alcohol.
[7:26] Oh, you drank to blackout?
[7:28] Yes, I drank to blackout on alcohol that night.
[7:32] All right.
[7:34] I was told that the last friend you stayed, we were trying to order an uber there were no ubers at three o'clock in the morning the last friend that stayed didn't want to drive us back because he would have had to cross a really busy street in our area um so we decided to walk home, and went against the signal uh i don't believe that we understood, what danger we were in because at this point i do have memories of what happened um i remember across.
[8:10] Against the lights while heavily.
[8:12] Yes right okay yes and i i do remember being in the middle of the street and like laughing and not really recognizing the danger and then looking forward and seeing my friend illuminated by the headlight and uh he was hit full impact and died instantly at the scene. My right leg was taken by the car's tire and it threw me to the ground. I smashed my glasses into my right eye and had some pretty bad bleeding on my wrist from that and broke my leg in two places my hip um, so what is he judgmental about with all those details that we left the party together and we're going to go hang out at my parents house that, I don't know. I think it just made him very uncomfortable to hear me talk about it.
[9:29] Well, what are you, um, what, um, I would judgmental or, or like, what, what are you critical of about that night? What are you, what would you have done differently if you, if you could go back in time?
[9:39] Well, I would, um, what did you just slept there? I would have not drinking as much. I would have. Not been so careless and reckless. I do have a lot of bad decision-making in my past. I'm willing to cop to that.
[10:02] Well, I think of the poor driver.
[10:04] Oh, no, no, no. Oh, no, sir. No, sir. I don't blame him one bit.
[10:10] No, no. I think of the poor driver.
[10:12] Oh, you mean like, yes, yeah.
[10:15] I mean, he's now killed someone and maimed someone else.
[10:19] Yes.
[10:19] Like that's a trauma that he's going to have to live with for the rest of his life.
[10:24] Absolutely. And I've tried to reach out to him personally and that did not succeed. I got contact from his lawyer once because my friend who passed away's mother was pursuing a lawsuit.
[10:40] Oh God, really? So he had this trauma of a bunch of drunk people crossing against the lights in the middle of the night and then he got sued.
[10:49] Yes and i i didn't have the opportunity to speak with him directly but when i did speak with his lawyer i did say you know there's no ill will on my part i feel absolutely horrible for him in terms of what he has to live with now and i'm just so sorry and and i don't think that his my my friend who passed away his mother was in the right by any means i think that that was quite despicable of her.
[11:15] Oh, gosh. Yeah, that's terrible. Do you know whatever happened with that lawsuit?
[11:22] Oh, no. I assume that it just fell apart. I hope that it fell apart.
[11:26] Right.
[11:28] Because it was unfounded, and yeah, no. No, God, no. And that's a part of my accident that I've never really enjoyed, is that people kind of, like, assume that I did get money from it or something along those lines, and I... push back against that hard because money won't make that right.
[11:50] Right. And what was your recuperation like?
[11:55] Oh, I spent a total of five days in the hospital, three of which I was unconscious for.
[12:05] And was that induced or just what had happened?
[12:07] Yes, yes, yes. They medically induced me.
[12:10] Okay.
[12:14] And the surgery went for six hours. Everything was very successful. i was um walking within my first day of being awake uh walking you'd like broken in two places, yes yeah i was walking within my first day of being awake not far just down the hallway and back um and it was it was it was a lot of having to put things aside and focus on me it was a lot of, of um willful blindness uh.
[12:50] What do you mean.
[12:50] Um the entire time i was there, i like wouldn't think i would think about my boyfriend at the time and how work was going i would think about what my parents were doing and how they are but if i like if my brain went to my friend i would i wouldn't allow myself to think about him at all okay got it got it so uh i i I ate all my food. I used the bathroom. You know, they don't let you leave until you do that stuff. My voice was hoarse because they had me on the feeding tube for three days or two days or whatever. So I couldn't really speak above, like, you know, a soft grumble. That was extremely frustrating. My parents were very scared, very emotional, very... shooken up um and how else did my healing go uh oh before i left the hospital they told me that my friend passed away and uh and like i just told him that i knew i knew but i didn't know like i knew but i wouldn't allow you saw.
[14:03] Him get hit and obviously it was a rough yeah yeah.
[14:06] So i just went i know um and uh so four months of bed rest because of the broken hip and um, i did speak i did talk therapy for a year um i wish i would have searched for somebody a little bit more um intently because i didn't necessarily click with that individual as well as i wish i would have um but he did bring up some good points he brought up the marijuana he's the only therapist i've ever talked to that brought up the marijuana as a problem and i agree um sorry.
[14:46] Um so it was drinking but so you were drinking and doing marijuana that night is that right yes.
[14:50] Yes and possibly cocaine too like you know let's throw that in there who knows um.
[14:55] Why would you say possibly cocaine.
[14:57] Because just based with that time frame and that friend group and the way that things laid out it just it feels like it fits oh.
[15:08] You did did you not get a toxicology at the hospital.
[15:12] I don't i don't know maybe i did and i don't i don't know i've never seen that okay.
[15:16] That's just wondering.
[15:17] I would love to see that though because i am i like i am very curious i have uh all my medical records right here but i never thought to look for that, I'll go to the middle class.
[15:37] Okay, but so, yeah, maybe cocaine and how much marijuana?
[15:43] Grams.
[15:44] A lot of marijuana and how much alcohol do you think, would you estimate?
[15:47] Oh, God. We drank like an entire gallon of Tito's at night.
[15:54] A gallon of what?
[15:56] Tito's vodka.
[15:57] Okay, I'm not familiar with alcohol very much, so okay.
[16:00] Sorry.
[16:00] So an entire gallon. And so, yeah, you were blackout. now when did you first start drinking and doing drugs.
[16:08] Oh very too young way too young um, 11 11 okay probably i.
[16:20] Mean 18 is too young but all right 11.
[16:22] And so.
[16:22] How did that come about.
[16:23] Um my father's very intense and i think that i seeked escape through means of substances uh i think that i had a very abusive and tumultuous and anxiety-provoking childhood hood and then I came across alcohol and it for some reason it made things feel better and then weed weed was more my thing personally and um I've always been around it and, uh Escape. I guess that's my answer, escape.
[17:15] And was it alcohol at 11? When did the weed start?
[17:21] I started alcohol, I started smoking alcohol probably before middle, like right at middle school. and you know i and now that i'm thinking about it this is also the time that i i moved away from my my home that i lived in my entire life uh, yeah sorry if you can stay.
[17:47] Off places no biggie but.
[17:49] Oh i'm sorry no that's fine don't.
[17:50] Worry about it don't worry about it okay so um so.
[17:53] I i just i think that um i'm realizing that like possibly i felt isolated and no no i.
[17:59] Get that i mean it's not necessarily moving i mean kids move a lot uh it's so uh alcohol you said middle school so what age is that 11 12.
[18:08] He is actually might be a middle school like how old are you in sixth grade i don't even know i.
[18:14] Think sixth grade is 11.
[18:15] 11 okay then 11 okay and when did i start smoking pot i started smoking pot freshman year of high school, sorry i'm i'm not american 15 15 i think 15 or 14 14 i'm gonna land on 14.
[18:34] And what was your alcohol consumption from from 11 like what i mean you said you'd sneak it but how often.
[18:40] And how much oh i would say twice a month with friends um just enough to get us drunk uh, Whatever my parents had around the house, we weren't getting anybody to buy it for us or anything like that. But it was reckless behavior, and I wish my parents would have handled it differently.
[19:06] We'll get to the parents. I'm sure there's a lot to talk about with regards to that. And when you started weed at 14 or so, what was your consumption like there? How much?
[19:15] It started off more innocent. It started off the same boyfriend I had at the accident. is is the same boyfriend i had at the beginning of high school um we dated all through high school together so you met him when.
[19:30] You were 14.
[19:30] I met him when i was 14 okay.
[19:32] And did he introduce you to weed.
[19:34] Yes and.
[19:36] How old was he.
[19:37] He was 15 but we were in the same grade okay.
[19:42] So he'd been held back a year.
[19:43] Uh something about his birthday being august or whatever oh.
[19:48] Okay yeah yeah yeah i got That's kind of freaky stuff. Okay. So he, and do you know how long he'd been doing weed for?
[19:54] He started around the, like in, in our relationship. Like when we first started being a couple, he wouldn't, he was not smoking. And then I want to say four or five months into us dating, he started smoking with his friends and then invited me to do.
[20:14] Did he do alcohol from an early age in the way that you did?
[20:18] No. Not like I did, no.
[20:20] Okay. And when did the booger sugar show up? When did cocaine start to become part of the equation?
[20:29] I don't know. I can't even say 100% because...
[20:33] Just roughly.
[20:35] Let's say senior year.
[20:39] So 16, 17?
[20:41] Wait, no. No, senior year, you're 18.
[20:45] 18, okay. Sorry, I'm not familiar with these terms. No, no, you've got nothing to apologize for. uh i just uh it's my ignorance okay.
[20:52] I want to be clear no.
[20:53] No i appreciate that okay and did you after the accident did you return to this unholy trinity or or like the weed alcohol cocaine stuff did you stay off it or how did that go.
[21:07] I stayed away from alcohol um i i have a difficult relationship with alcohol um weed i relied on heavily to get me through my emotional pain my physical pain um i'm very proud of myself in terms of the medication they gave me you know i was in a lot of pain and i only took i think maybe one and a half of the oxycodone that they gave me only when i was literally crying out and of course i took the antibiotics and everything yeah yeah i had to take but i am very very proud of myself for, it's a i hate to say i'm proud of myself for relying on weed to get me through that time and not using what they gave me for pain and would you uh.
[22:03] Would you was it daily weed.
[22:06] Oh yes and from the moment i wake up to the moment i go to bed uh every hour okay hourly okay very very very often i am most certainly a pot addict but um no sorry remind me.
[22:20] How long sorry to interrupt how long ago was the.
[22:22] Accident oh uh 2017 july of 2017 okay so seven.
[22:29] Years and change right okay yes years okay so since then you've been a daily like on the hour weed user is that yeah.
[22:37] Yes yeah but no.
[22:39] Cocaine is that right.
[22:40] No cocaine and.
[22:41] No booze or just less booze.
[22:44] It was no, my ex-husband was not a drinker. I was happy about that. I don't see myself as a drinker, even though I do enjoy alcohol. Clearly it doesn't sit well with me. I don't make good choices on it. So I think that the best decision is for me to avoid it. So I enjoyed that being with him made it easy to avoid alcohol. But now I have been drinking a little bit, trying to socialize with friends and coworkers and connect with people. But I still feel like it's something I should avoid. I really do.
[23:21] Right, right.
[23:23] Now over the course of the accident and your recovery.
[23:26] When did the medical professionals did they talk to you about brain injury did did you have any scans or any.
[23:33] Exploration or.
[23:35] Rehab about all of that.
[23:36] Oh absolutely i did a full cat scan i did um i forget what it's called where they put all the wires on your head and have you fall asleep in a room i'm.
[23:46] Not sure but i'm sure okay with that sleep thing yeah.
[23:49] Um it's a it's another kind of brain scan a little bit more intense than a uh cat scan it's it's like a cat scans i don't i'm not a doctor i'm gonna roughly say what i think a cat scan will give you like a map and actual patches or placements or plaques or you know they give you surface of an area that's an issue and then the other test was more like electrical impulses if things are firing and triggering the way that they are meant to. So I did both of those and no negative results. I did the brain bleed that I had was a three millimeter brain bleed. It was very mild, it dissipated on itself in a matter of weeks.
[24:41] Okay, so there was no official report of your brain's gone dark here, there, or someplace like that, so things came back relatively normal?
[24:51] Yes. Physically, yes.
[24:55] Okay, so there's another category, right? Physically, so tell me about the other category and what's been going on with that.
[25:02] Well, then there's emotionally, and I'm sure you're familiar with the, I don't even know what you would call it.
[25:11] Then no i'm not.
[25:13] I'm sure you're familiar on voldemort the thing that has no name i am not in fact oh no uh in psychology i i learned about a case study where a gentleman was a railroad worker and he was trying to stuff a piece of dynamite into the spike.
[25:30] Through the head guy.
[25:30] The spike through the head guy yeah yeah i know that one yeah yes sir and um uh the case study behind that is just how, you know, emotions can be impacted by trauma. So I did, when I learned about that and I learned about the brain and I learned about hitting the right side of your frontal lobe, that kind of like enlightened me a lot. Because I did.
[25:55] Well, but he did have a spike through the head.
[25:57] But I'd see personality changes in myself after I hit the right frontal lobe, which is the personality side, if I am to be understanding correctly. But also at the same time, I just encountered a near-death experience.
[26:19] Yeah, I mean, that could affect the personality too, right?
[26:21] I'm right. I just lost my friend. Yeah, I was a little bit more stern, a little bit more cold, a little bit more...
[26:34] Well, I mean, you were taking life a whole lot more seriously, right?
[26:37] Oh, God, yes. Absolutely. And in that...
[26:41] You know, and that's not an injury. That actually is an improvement, isn't it?
[26:45] I would hope. Thank you. I've had to cut a lot of people out because of it, but I do think it's for the best because you've got to push forward.
[26:55] Right. Okay, so let's talk about the old childhood. What the living heck was going on that you were pilfering booze at 11? right um and i don't mean i don't look i i i'm sure you know this about the way that i approach these things children are not at fault thank you my children are just trying to survive usually an extraordinarily horrible difficult or even evil situation so uh why what were you self-medicating for.
[27:26] My father is an abusive man physically mentally emotionally more so emotionally than physically but my my childhood, um, being a good girl for the sake of not being, uh, not triggering my father. A lot of fear. My mother, very passive, um, very cold. Uh, I had a lot of feelings of anger towards her growing up that she didn't step up and, and protect me. Or, or I remember saying things like, why do you let him talk to me like that? And she'd say like, oh, why don't you tell him that you don't like it? Well, I'm five.
[28:29] Oh, you would tell her at five, why do you let him talk to me like that, right?
[28:32] Yeah.
[28:32] Okay.
[28:33] I have a distinct memory in my brain that I can recall. And so, yeah, it got to be like, okay, well, now I see how this is. He's the tyrant. she's copiable for allowing him to behave the way that he does. And I'm stuck in the middle of it.
[28:55] And so what sort of things would your father do and say?
[29:01] Well, he, he would, he would say, he would do things to make me feel small and weak. um the times that he hit me were i want to say five or six times usually, um usually over things that i really feel like you could just talk to a child and explain to them what you felt like they did wrong i don't i don't, him hitting me was never warranted and especially towards a child and he just was a very emotional man who didn't know how to handle himself well by any means and he would say, just name calling he would just do no, stupid pathetic shrimp loser like minimizing and demoralizing things call me a whore call me, very painful things that i try not to think about and.
[30:21] I i mean i i have a daughter myself and uh she is um i mean she's almost 16 and i'm just it it shocks and appalls and horrifies me what parents do i mean i've never raised my voice at her i've never punished her i've never called her a name i've you know uh and it's great i mean we do shows together right on on this.
[30:45] She's gonna benefit from that well i.
[30:48] Just i can't i can't imagine like what vile shit is going on in someone's soul like how ugly and nasty and and corrupt you have to be to.
[30:59] You know there's brain.
[31:00] Stamp this kind of language on your child's mind.
[31:02] There's a a time um it was after i broke up with my high school sweetheart and uh things weren't going well at home and they came my mother came in my room and asked me to do the dishes and uh i threw a fit because they never rinse anything and it's disgusting and the reason why i have to do them is because i got caught being arrested at 12 and here i am at 19 and it just felt so stupid and i wanted to talk about it with them and it just turned into yelling and screaming and crying and my dad came in my room he was in his underwear and tried to put his hands on me i still to this day don't know what he was trying to do i just remember in a violent.
[31:49] Way or a sexualized way.
[31:51] In a violent way okay and i just remember putting my leg up and slapping his hands away until he stopped and then i grabbed my phone and i was wearing pjs like fleece pj bottoms i had no bra on i had on like you know just a long sleeve shirt i left the house with my phone and my id and um and i didn't come home for four days so like blowups like that just over nothing nothing oh.
[32:28] No yeah i mean and here's the thing there is no something that would make any of that justified anyway.
[32:33] Yeah but what happened you said you got arrested at 12 even at times where i've had grown men trying to physically come at me i'm not gonna kick them in the balls i'm not gonna you know poke them i'm just gonna do my best to just keep myself safe i'm not gonna revert to like i just don't know what was your question uh.
[32:55] You said you got arrested at 12.
[32:57] Yeah i got i got arrested for um shoplifting at the mall when i was uh younger than 12 when i was like 11 because i couldn't do um the community service that they wanted me to do because i was you had to be 14 to volunteer anywhere, Right.
[33:19] And what happened with that?
[33:21] I was at the mall with my friend whose mother is extremely religious and she wanted to get things that her mom wouldn't approve of. So we were stealing them instead of buying them. And that's really all it was. Just some kids being goofy.
[33:37] Right, right. And I assume that that was pretty bad in terms of what happened with your parents after that because of that?
[33:45] Actually my mom kept it a secret from my dad for me and my dad found a letter in the mail, and i was visiting my family and uh he picked me up at the airport oh you're like visiting grandparents or what do you mean by yeah i was visiting grandparents got it and uh i just remember being terrified when he was coming to pick me up because he just handles everything so poorly and explodes to the highest extent that he possibly can but he actually was really calm and strangely eerie and the only advice that i remember him giving me is him being upset with me for complying with the police and telling them i did what i did yeah right bad advice i think, they asked me what happened and I put my hands up and I said you caught me, I'm sorry I'm a stupid 12 year old kid what do you want from me?
[34:48] Fucked up right, okay okay, and so you've only hit a couple of times.
[34:56] A handful of times.
[34:58] I'm sorry?
[34:59] I said a handful of times.
[35:00] Yeah only a couple how often would your, father loses temper roughly weekly.
[35:12] Daily, monthly daily yeah daily, daily yeah all the time especially at work and I worked with him for four years right okay, do you have any siblings no right i despise being an only child i know that you have an only child and i'm not speaking to you oh no i mean we.
[35:45] Had as many children as nature allowed so i don't have any control over that.
[35:50] That's perfectly natural and me you know my situation my perceptions my family i'm disappointed in them for not giving me somebody to fucking confide in or somebody to protect or somebody else to guide or somebody else to talk to or just just anybody like they wanted to continue to party and have fun and go on vacations and live this lifestyle that they lived for seven years before having me and then i'm just an afterthought and i'm just like i'm just there and along for the ride but it's like no what about my future what about my needs and my wants i really i really i had a nice childhood but it could have been better sorry what now, i said i had a you know what.
[36:46] All right you're gonna have.
[36:47] To step.
[36:47] Me through this reasoning because i'm not seeing it you.
[36:50] Had a nice childhood i had a nice house and nice things and no.
[36:56] No that's that's just stuff.
[36:58] That is just stuff.
[36:59] So what do you mean you hadn't like help me you're telling me.
[37:02] About literal horror here and you're like oh it's good i wasn't that's just me coping it wasn't good.
[37:10] God no this is horrible.
[37:16] So, yes, I'm an only child, and I get on them about that often.
[37:24] Well, listen, I was not an only child, and sometimes having a sibling is not a magical plus at all.
[37:30] Absolutely.
[37:31] I mean, the parents are pretty good at turning siblings against each other, right?
[37:34] Oh, the grass is always greener on the other side, and there's that, too. I never even considered that fact, because my father tried to turn me against my mother. I've watched him do it multiple times. Lord knows what he would have done. Good point.
[37:45] Well, not even Lord knows, but we know. I mean, he would set you guys against each other and...
[37:50] You know.
[37:51] I'm learning.
[37:52] I'm learning. I'm 26. I don't know people. I'm realizing this very freaking fast that I am very naive.
[38:03] Well, I wouldn't necessarily go straight to insult land, but... Okay. So did your parents give you any particular guidance or is there any things that they give you a value utility that you use to this day? Sorry, you finished, you finished that before I even, so I get, I guess not, right?
[38:28] What?
[38:29] I mean, the answer to that is no, right? Like they just didn't give you it. Because I'm trying to figure out like, why are you having a boyfriend at this age and you know, all this sort of stuff.
[38:37] No they their opinion towards sex was just she's just gonna do it when she wants to do it anyways so why talk to her about it or or instruct her on it or do anything with it at all let's just ignore it the only thing they told me is when you choose to start having sex just let us know so we can put you on birth control i think that's horrible advice yeah.
[39:01] I'd agree with that.
[39:02] Yeah, and and that's exactly what they did and then i've been on birth control so from 12 until 23.
[39:14] 12?
[39:16] Yes from 12 until 23. wow and i and i still to this day don't know what is done to my body or my brain or my comment like you know like we're we're still learning what the long-term effect of birth control are and and it we've it's it sure has had an effect on society and the way that we treat each other the effects from that are so.
[39:38] You said to them at the age of 12 i'm gonna have sex.
[39:44] Yep and.
[39:47] Uh i mean you had a boyfriend at the time and and so on and that's that's the way things were going.
[39:52] Yep yep and.
[39:55] Did they ever say maybe 12 is a bit young to have a boyfriend i mean i'm guessing not right that's.
[40:00] Not a.
[40:01] Thing that they would do.
[40:01] No it was just no boys no boys no boys and then all of a sudden okay i guess fine okay fine boys instead of like okay you can have boys over but let's keep a healthy you know relationship happening here like let's mediate things let's it was just yeah so they were okay with me smoking pot they were okay with me having underage uh sex with my boyfriend at the time so long as i was on birth control um they were okay with me just as long as i went to school and didn't cause too much trouble at home basically that was about all masking words right.
[40:48] Okay so what happened after you finished high school.
[40:58] Oh well i graduated i got ran over by a car um i'm.
[41:03] Sorry you did what.
[41:03] I graduated and then i got ran over by the car yes okay sorry so uh at the time i was working at a bank i was an intern i was a paid intern um at an oh at a bank sorry um and they were gonna transfer me to a different branch uh but the accident happened so um after high school it would have been wonderful to um get ready for college and think about the future and right and and start you know what do i want to do what do i want to be instead i was just trying to walk again and right and hoping that i would be able to uh have my cognitive abilities once more and um so they just wanted me to get into any kind of school i was doing classes at um just the basic associates i was taking a few things for fun art i did very well i won two awards um my first year in art and i i was enjoying it a lot until covid happened and everything went to being online oh at this time i was also doing handyman work with my father um uh which i also i did i i like.
[42:32] I like using my hands i like working with material objects i like building things i like constructing things i like problem solving i like figuring out what tools are going to be best for what thing like i i enjoyed the a lot of the i like the physical aspect of it i enjoyed a lot of what i learned with my father but it was not getting me anywhere uh so yeah that's my answer after high school i focused on college for a little bit up until covid happening and then i dropped out.
[43:08] And just remind me how old you were when you met your ex-husband?
[43:14] 19.
[43:15] Right. Okay.
[43:16] 20. 20.
[43:18] 20. Okay. All right.
[43:23] He was 30. I just turned 20. He just turned 30.
[43:29] Right. Okay. And what was it that drew you to him at the beginning?
[43:35] Very attractive. I found him on Bumble I still remember exactly where I was And what I was doing And what my first thought was My first thought was He looks like he could destroy my life I love it, So you've got some good instincts I do I do have good instincts But for some reason I don't listen to the Jiminy Cricket on my shoulder It's right there He's screaming at me And I just choose not to listen Maybe a good.
[44:02] Old Jiminy got hit by the car Who knows, right?
[44:04] We'll we'll figure it.
[44:05] Out over the course of the combo but go on.
[44:07] You gotta come back man um so he uh my first instinct towards my husband was this guy looks like a god he's extremely physically attractive he's extremely dynamic um we started talking through the app and, we talked for about two weeks on the app, I enjoyed our conversations he listened to punk music he listened to Jordan B. Peterson he listened to you I thought he was into philosophy I thought that he was.
[44:50] Oriented towards marriage he'd just gotten out of an engagement that, that was a red flag too um the way he spoke about that was a red flag and um i didn't want to hear it i suppose what i wanted i i wanted to believe that she was the problem i wanted to believe him and believe that what he the the what he was laying out the way that he was laying it out was reality right, um but as the course of time went on uh i don't think that it was really reality.
[45:41] We both are guilty of mimicking the other person i will say that we are both guilty of telling the other person what they want to hear i've done that to him and he has done that to me and it worked. And it left both of us very confused.
[46:03] Right. Okay.
[46:07] Oh, and, um, you know, of course I just wanted to get out of my parents' house. I just wanted to go out and have fun. I, when I met my, my husband, I wasn't looking for a husband. I wasn't thinking about a husband. I just got out of a five year long relationship and I was kind of in the zone of, fuck it. It's not a good zone to be in. I wouldn't recommend it, but honest, I'm honest. That's, that's where I was.
[46:30] Right okay were there any particular virtues i mean you know my sort of formula i don't know if you know my formulation is love is our involuntary response to virtue if we're virtuous.
[46:40] And were.
[46:42] There any particular virtues that.
[46:43] He's hard working he's um when he puts his mind towards something he could get it done he can he can accomplish whatever he sets his mind to it's just that he doesn't really orient himself, to many things he's not very ambitious I suppose but, he's very charismatic he's very, fun to be around he can make you laugh he can make you, be very on the edge of every word very enthralled in the story or whatever he's speaking about and I was absolutely enamored with him. It was the first time I felt that sexually strong towards somebody. My first partner I wasn't necessarily that physically attracted to. I just kind of, stayed with what you know.
[47:44] Right, okay. And how long were you guys dating before you got engaged?
[47:52] Three months.
[47:53] Three months and then after the engagement to the marriage.
[48:00] A year and four months.
[48:02] Oh wow engagement and a half.
[48:08] And it was a long engagement for multiple reasons. The main reason being that...
[48:16] Well, you already got out of your house. Sorry, go ahead.
[48:18] Right? Well, no, I wasn't out of the house.
[48:21] Oh, you didn't live together when you were engaged?
[48:24] No, we didn't live with each other when we were engaged. It was a really long engagement. He didn't help with any of the wedding in terms of financial.
[48:37] I paid for the whole wedding. myself from working with my dad it took me a lot of time to work and save up the money and get it all together in the end we we had our wedding at um it was like a campground it was like a trailer park campground hybrid where they had cabins and then the big open outdoor like so like we kept it relatively inexpensive but i loved it i loved every piece of it and uh he wasn't really, as involved as i wish he would have been and i don't know why we couldn't have gotten married sooner if he would have gotten more involved i think i would have liked that okay.
[49:23] Was he not working is that why he didn't uh pay.
[49:27] No he worked the deal was supposed to be i would pay for the wedding because i wanted the wedding to be what i wanted it to be you know i i he didn't care we could have went to a courthouse or whatever so the deal was he would pay off his credit card and i would focus on the wedding and that never happened we got married we moved in with each other. The condo is a whole other thing that I took care of. And then here we are three years or two years married, living in the condo for two years, and I'm still helping him pay his credit card. So that was very disheartening. broken promises um.
[50:17] So how was the relationship over the year and four months between engagement and marriage was were things going fairly well or or how did then how did it go that way.
[50:27] Things went well so long as no one stirred the pot and that's not a good answer um things went well so long as i didn't ask any questions he didn't ask any questions we just enjoyed the two hours to 24 hours that we had with each other and then we went and lived our separate lives. And really, honestly, we got along, up until the point where we started living with each other.
[51:00] Well, I mean, but there must have been some conflict over the wedding and the cost of the credit card bills. I'm not trying to stir the pot here, but there were differences of opinions about that, right?
[51:10] There was conflict about expenses and money, and it was mostly avoided.
[51:23] Right, okay. All right, so then you get married, and if I understand this rightly, it started to go not super well after you got married, and how long did it take for things to start to be like, oh, not good?
[51:39] Uh well um we moved in i'm gonna look at the calendar really quick, august oh my gosh not even a month, all right oh wait wait wait i'm lying i'm lying i'm sorry i'm sorry i'm just mistaken yeah it's a year a year to the date.
[52:02] Oh so for the first year of marriage things were good.
[52:06] Pretty much well the first no the first year of marriage things started to crack the first year of marriage it was okay why are you texting somebody at 10 o'clock at night why are you coming home at 10 o'clock at night why are you taking so long to get to the gym when i'm not at home but when we're together you get there instantly it was well you've.
[52:31] Dated you've got married and you dated and married a super good looking guy and then.
[52:36] You were concerned.
[52:36] About other women.
[52:37] Yeah after he got married yeah.
[52:40] Yeah no i mean that's to some degree that's one of the prices right.
[52:43] I was telling myself that for a long time okay, But I'm also very good looking. Is it the same thing on his end? One of the prices is all the men? Yeah, but he needs to be confident in that I'm going to be constantly telling people no.
[53:02] Well, no, but the problem is, and I obviously don't want to tell you about your marriage because I'm just learning about it, But I think that the problem is that if you choose someone mostly because of their looks, then you are concerned that the connection is shallow and is replaceable.
[53:21] It is.
[53:22] Whereas if you choose someone for their core, their essence, who they really are, and their virtues, and so on, then that's a bond that a good-looking person can't just elbow you aside and get it, if that makes sense.
[53:33] It does. Okay.
[53:35] Okay so was so he was behaving in a suspicious manner now he wasn't doing that, or behaving in that suspicious manner before you.
[53:44] Got married is that not that i not that i seen directly um i did find a condom in his backpack while we were dating before, and that um i asked him why he had it he said i asked him why he had it he said nothing i asked him to get rid of it he said what if i want to sleep with somebody what yes okay.
[54:08] Hold the phone back up back up you find a condom in his.
[54:13] Backpack and he says well i can't.
[54:14] Get rid of it because i might want to have sex with somebody.
[54:16] Yes and.
[54:17] When was this.
[54:18] This was as we were dating when we were engaged and i okay but roughly.
[54:23] I mean near the beginning.
[54:24] Middle end.
[54:25] Of the engagement or.
[54:26] Middle of the engagement.
[54:27] Okay, I mean, that's more than a red flag, isn't it?
[54:33] Yeah, no, 100%.
[54:34] He's saying that the relationship, if I'm attracted to someone enough, the relationship is open. It's an open relationship.
[54:41] Yes.
[54:42] Okay.
[54:42] And extremely hurtful. Like, it shattered me. And it's...
[54:49] Not enough.
[54:51] No, not enough.
[54:52] Because, you know, you guys spent another more, six more years, right?
[54:57] Yeah. I spent a lot of, I went through a lot of different mental hurdles to try to make this toxic mess work, but it's just, it's not supposed to work. So.
[55:10] Okay. So, I mean, let me ask you this just, you know, person to person, right?
[55:15] Yeah.
[55:17] Were there no nice guys around?
[55:20] They weren't fun enough. They weren't exciting enough.
[55:23] Okay. So tell me, because this, you know, this thing where it's like, Oh, the guy who treats me like crap gets me all hot and tingly, but the guy who shows up with flowers on my door gives me the ick. Like, help me understand that with regards to women.
[55:38] I don't know if it's true for all women. I know that it's true for me in those circumstances.
[55:46] Okay, let's just talk about you then. So why do you think it is?
[55:49] Yeah, yeah, person to person.
[55:49] Why do you think it is that?
[55:51] Because it was exciting and fun and maybe even there is a little bit of masochism to it. Maybe women do enjoy that like woe is me, weepy bullshit, but like you chose it. You put it on yourself, you know?
[56:09] I mean, this is a guy who's saying, I'm not going to be faithful. I have no monogamy in me.
[56:15] Yes.
[56:16] Okay.
[56:16] And I chose to stay, and I chose to put up with it because some— No.
[56:20] I mean, sorry, but tell me how that conversation goes. He says, well, I need the condom in case I want to sleep with someone.
[56:26] I just—I got upset and insisted that he had to throw it away. And then I'm sure that he just thought, oh, well, I'll just hide them better, you know?
[56:33] Well, no, no, no, but didn't you have a conversation about we may have different opinions on what monogamy means?
[56:39] I should have at that point i was.
[56:41] Oh so your issue was that he had the condom and if he didn't have the condom the problem was solved the condom wasn't a manifestation of his lack of commitment.
[56:49] The issue was that i thought we were in a monogamous relationship from the very beginning.
[56:56] Well did he say that you were he implied okay and what did he say and i'm not disagreeing with you i just want to know what the communication was then.
[57:05] Me finding that condom was a huge you know like i can't.
[57:09] Sorry but how did he and i'm not disagreeing with you i just want to know what he said that you got as we're monogamous.
[57:17] Well, he asked me to be his girlfriend, and he said to me explicitly that, you know, like, I expect you to only sleep with me, and vice versa, I expected him to only sleep with me.
[57:27] Okay, so he made that commitment, right?
[57:29] He made that commitment.
[57:30] Okay, so I just want to make sure I understand. And then, you know, six months or eight months or whatever it is into it, he's saying, I can sleep with whoever I want, should I feel like it.
[57:42] That's what he was, yeah, that's what he said.
[57:44] Okay. I mean, how good looking is this guy?
[57:49] Very good looking.
[57:50] Okay, so you chose the looks. I did. And you were willing to put up with him being a jerk because he was handsome enough.
[57:59] Yes, he was.
[58:00] Okay, so that's just a trade, right? That's like saying, I'm going to have dessert instead of salad. It's like, okay, well, you enjoy the taste, but you might gain weight, right?
[58:08] Yeah, you're going to get the diabetes.
[58:09] Yeah, okay. So you very consciously walked into this guy is not trustworthy.
[58:18] I did.
[58:19] He's a liar, right? From what you're saying. And he's a liar in the most foundational aspect of things, which is sexuality and monocamy, right?
[58:28] Yes. And unfortunately, because of how my father is, that felt familiar and normal.
[58:34] Well, that doesn't mean that you do it, though, right?
[58:39] No.
[58:40] That could be like, oh, my God, this guy is like my dad. I know where this leads. I better have nothing to do with him.
[58:47] That's how it should be. That's how it should be. that's where i would like to get myself to be well and you wouldn't.
[58:54] But you were 20 right.
[58:55] Yes and and i've talked a lot with my current therapist about you know giving myself grace, and i have i hope that i have learned from my experiences and you know a lot of what has kept me in this relationship is the fear of how i behaved outside of relationships that i did lose my sense of self i did lose my bird shoes and my just my sense of who i was and and i'm i was scared of who i was going to be outside of the relationship but i've done the work now i and i feel like i can stand on my own two feet and i know who i am and and it's going to be okay was.
[59:32] He a high status guy for you like you're on his arm and people are like wow you know that's a.
[59:37] Good-looking couple.
[59:38] It was something.
[59:39] Like that yeah of course it was yeah i i had a little arm candy for.
[59:44] And was yeah a nice himbo uh did your father was he very good looking as well as was that his.
[59:49] Sort of ticket in the world he was his own little rock star uh he was in a punk band sold drugs ran around through and everybody and anybody him and my mom dated for seven years um seven years of torturing each other and hurting each other he's disgusting quite frankly in the way that he looks at women it's all just a matter of use i've heard stories of him saying like when my mom was pregnant with me of like oh are you guys gonna have another kid and him being like oh if i ever touch her again like there was no genuine love or connection there it was circumstantial the, poverty poverty bonded them together they had to stay together because they didn't want to work to fight a way out of it.
[1:00:38] Sorry, what do you mean?
[1:00:41] They chose each other even though it hurt and it was hard because at least they could be comfortable.
[1:00:49] Familiarity for them too, right?
[1:00:51] Familiarity, that's what I mean.
[1:00:53] Okay, but the poverty thing that they didn't want to work to get out of it, what does that mean?
[1:00:56] Yeah. Well, they... I mean, they, they kind of did work to get out of it. They both were from single mothers, you know, um, government food homes and they, worked hard to get out of the neighborhoods that they were at, but still there's a lack of commitment to each other and the greater good.
[1:01:27] Right. Okay. Got it. All right, so you get married to this guy, and you have suspicions about him and fidelity, right?
[1:01:40] Yes.
[1:01:41] And was there proof that you found? Anything incontrovertible? Did he admit or not?
[1:01:48] Pictures or anything like that? No. Text messages? Did he ever admit? No.
[1:01:56] Okay, and what percentage probability would you give that he was cheating? Although it's hard to say it's cheating when he announces ahead of time that he's going to feel free to sleep with other women.
[1:02:07] I give him a solid 80%.
[1:02:09] Okay. Got it. And did you cheat?
[1:02:15] No. Okay. And no one believes that. And I was tortured throughout this whole thing. There's a bit to this that I skipped over that might like...
[1:02:29] Well, let's skip back.
[1:02:33] Because it is like that's a good question like how if this relationship has been as toxic and tumultuous as it has been has it lasted five years that's a good question oh.
[1:02:44] Some of them last 50.
[1:02:45] And um our first big blow up was a year after we moved in together and we're living with each other. It was August 2nd, 2022. It's the night that my ex-husband mentioned with your talk where he tried to kick me out of my parents' house or kick me out of our condo. And so we had been fighting for four or five days. I found some things on his phone and was not comfortable having sex with him unless he wore a condom.
[1:03:35] Sorry, you found... Oh, so like cheaty stuff?
[1:03:38] Yes.
[1:03:39] You mean like nudes? Because I don't know what... I've been married way too long to know what the hell you're talking about. It's my ignorance.
[1:03:46] I found text messages that led me to believe that he was having a sexual relationship with another woman. It made me extremely upset. It made me extremely uncomfortable. And all I could do was set my own boundaries and tell him that if he wants to have sex with me, he needs to wear a condom because I do not trust him. I do not believe him. And I do not want him close to me. And he did not like me drawing boundaries and getting upset with him. I put the mat, we have some gym mats. I laid them out on the floor in the living room because we don't have a couch. And I slept on that. He found the condoms in the drawer that I told him we would be using. And that upset him very much for some reason.
[1:04:39] Sorry, what do you mean for some reason?
[1:04:41] Well, I told him that we would be using them.
[1:04:44] So you were still going to have sex with him, just only with a condom. Okay, does that make much sense if you think he's sleeping with another woman to have sex with him at all? I'm sorry if I'm missing something or if I'm a little old-fashioned, but I don't care about that.
[1:04:56] No, it doesn't make sense at all, but you'll come to find that I am a very nonsensical and not logical...
[1:05:01] No, I didn't say that. Look, there's a logic by which these things make sense. I'm just not sure exactly what it is.
[1:05:08] Well, the logic was, I still want sex. I don't cheat. I only have my husband. I still want to sleep with my... I still want sex, right?
[1:05:18] Oh, so you still want sex, just not an STD. Okay, got it.
[1:05:22] Pretty much. I don't know.
[1:05:24] No, no. You do know. I mean, I don't know because it's your conversation, right? So it's not a critical thing. I'm just trying to understand.
[1:05:34] That's where I'm in. Of course, I still wanted to have sex with my husband, but I can't trust him, and I didn't want an STI. That's terrifying. So he found the condoms. He comes out in the living room. He's yelling at me to get out of the house. He grabs me by my ankle pulls me to the door. I Kicked his shins and then run back to the corner. He grabs me by the leg pulls me to the door again I do the same thing and once again, I didn't kick him in the balls I didn't kick him in like I didn't try to escalate the situation at all I just simply did not want somebody to put their hands on me and um, He was very adamant about me leaving the house that night. I said you need to calm down. I have work in the morning Just go lay down go back to bed. I was telling him whatever he wanted to hear just to make him go away Um, I I completely dropped all the things I was pressing him on and all the all the women and I just I just I just needed to I just needed to be safe, um and uh.
[1:06:42] The next morning i went to work and i worked at the place that we live at at the condo complex we live at i do janitorial work i did janitorial work i cleaned the laundry rooms cleaned um anything that was outside and uh one of the women that live on property, ran into me and she's a friend and she could see that uh i wasn't okay and so she asked me what happened and i explained to her and so she said you know you can come stay at my house you can come stay with me i did um i got casa involved i got an order of protection.
[1:07:31] And with the order of protection my husband had to leave our condo and when we left our condo he went to go stay with my parents, and that whole situation my parents didn't necessarily, I didn't feel like they were seeing my side I didn't feel like they cared about what happened me i sent my father pictures of bruises and he basically told me to deal with it and they think it's okay because that's what they've done to me my whole life.
[1:08:08] Well not hit you but, not caused bruises directly.
[1:08:16] What you.
[1:08:18] Said that's what they've done to me my whole life but it's not they only hit you which is of course bad but they only hit you like half a dozen times or so right Not your.
[1:08:27] Whole life.
[1:08:27] Right?
[1:08:28] Yes. They think that abuse is okay.
[1:08:33] Right. Okay, got it. Okay, and then... and if you need to take a moment that's fine of.
[1:08:52] Course well and then, and then i from that point i really felt like i had to figure my own out and i had to play this game a little bit safer and openness and transparency doesn't always work with everybody and um the marriage never recuperated after that sorry but didn't he.
[1:09:19] End up going to jail at some point.
[1:09:21] No i no actually i went to jail okay.
[1:09:25] Sorry go ahead.
[1:09:25] He's just you with with that situation, we're going to be jumping all around okay the first situation august 2nd 2022 where, i move out then i get a order of protection it gets granted we spend 10 days not talking to each other then it's lifted and i want to talk to him again sorry how is the.
[1:10:03] End just because i don't know this sequence how is the order of protection.
[1:10:06] Order of protection is the order of protection is a 10-day restraining order between two people where both parties cannot violate it and like Like a cool-off period? Yes.
[1:10:19] Okay.
[1:10:19] It is the first portion of a restraining order. You need to get an order of protection before you can get a restraining order. And I did not necessarily want a restraining order against my husband, but I did need the legality of you cannot talk to me for 10 days. Um, so with that, it's lifted. We're trying to reconcile. We're texting and he's still staying at my parents. Uh, I'm not responding. He drives down to our condo, climbs up the balcony, breaks through the screen, comes inside. I'm at the bar with my girlfriends. I come back home. He comes out of the bedroom, puts his hands up, says, don't freak out.
[1:11:08] my girlfriend saw his car outside called the cops the cops came i told them no it's fine, everything's good please just go away like there have been many times where if i wanted to use the cops like i think i should have had him arrested at that point i should have but i didn't And then their next large blow-up is 17 months later, and this is where I get myself arrested.
[1:11:48] So before I get into this, can I mention a little bit about my ex-husband and I's drug history?
[1:11:57] It's your call. I am awaiting your next phrase with anticipation. So whatever you want to talk about is fine with me.
[1:12:09] So we would do MDMA together. And... It was usually on the weekends, those kind of things. He asked me if he could start spiking my drinks. He thought it would be fun if we're hanging out. And, you know, I take my vitamin drink. I always take every morning. And then all of a sudden, you know, I start to feel the molly come on.
[1:12:42] Sorry, help me. He asked you if he could spike your drinks and you said yes.
[1:12:47] And I said yes.
[1:12:48] Okay, what on earth is the point of that? And sorry to be incomprehensible, uncomprehending, sorry, but what's the point of him spiking your drinks? Then you're just getting dosed and maybe you've got to go to work or like.
[1:13:02] That's what that's actually what happened. The point was it was supposed to be when we are together just enjoying each other's time and then all of a sudden it would come on. I think it was a control thing for him. What did I get out of it? Not a lot. I didn't like it necessarily to say, but it was something that excited him. And I thought it was harmless and I'm open to trying it. And then we did a few times and it was fun a few times, but these things end. So we have a day where I'm going to go to the gym and I take my protein drink and I'm at the gym and I don't feel good. i feel funny so i call him and i ask him you know why do i feel this way he said oh did you drink your drink today i said of course i did why wouldn't i oh you have to come home right now i spiked it, and uh that was very scary to be out in public like that and not anticipating it and i drive oh i can't say that never mind um i'm on like a motorbike so it's dangerous, Even more so to be driving around like that Um when I came home Um, I was very upset.
[1:14:23] Wait, you drove home? Yeah. You say, yeah, like it's no thing. It's a big thing.
[1:14:29] No, I don't think it was good. Well, I did. I drove home. And I was very upset with him, to say the least.
[1:14:38] I mean, you can get people killed.
[1:14:41] Yeah. Well, like I said, I'm on a motorbike.
[1:14:45] No, but you don't have to be. You just take an Uber or a cab or ask for a Lyft.
[1:14:50] Well, I should have had him pick me up, but...
[1:14:52] Well, no, maybe he was drugged, too. I don't know. But, I mean, why are you driving home on a motorcycle when you're drugged?
[1:14:59] Bad decisions.
[1:15:00] Okay, but why? Help me understand. You're not down here.
[1:15:03] I felt like I had to get home.
[1:15:05] Okay, so get home, but...
[1:15:07] I should have done it a different way. I agree. Okay. That was dangerous. I agree that was dangerous. But that's what I did. And I came home, and I was very upset with him. And I said, I need a break. like you are not you are not thinking you're just being reckless with this and it's affecting me so please stop spiking my drinks I said it very clearly to him I gave him permission in the first place and now I am withdrawing permission.
[1:15:38] Well fast forward a few weeks I have another gym day like that day, I come home and I tell him I'm I'm 95% certain that he spiked my drink, but I asked very calmly, you know, um, I just said it simply. Hey, did you put anything in my drink, please? Did you? And he denied it. And I asked him one more time before he went to bed and he denied it. And then the next day I, uh, I pressed harder as he was making my next round of drinks and he freaked out through the vitamin jar that we had, um, dumped out the protein or the vitamin drink he was making, cleaned out the container, which I thought was strange. and i just don't trust that he was respecting what i wanted with that because he doesn't respect what i want with anything so why did i think that he would listen with that it was very naive of me in that time but um i'm sorry how long.
[1:16:53] Ago is this spiky stuff the spiking stuff.
[1:16:55] This is a couple months ago, This exact fight was January 2024.
[1:17:11] Okay. I mean, almost a year ago. Oh, no. 10 months, 11 months.
[1:17:15] Okay.
[1:17:16] All right.
[1:17:17] So he had been spiking my drinks for... I assume that he had been spiking my drinks for a few months prior to that. And then after... that, but do you have to answer your question?
[1:17:35] Um, I can't remember what the question was because you said that you wanted to talk about something else, which was the spiking or the repetitive spiking. So, okay.
[1:17:44] So I wanted to get to how I got arrested.
[1:17:47] Oh, yes.
[1:17:50] But I needed to do the tangent about the drug use for it to really make sense. So, um, And we are arguing nonstop. I came home from the gym at 11 o'clock, like noon, 11 o'clock, and we fought until 11 at night. And then once again, I had work the next day.
[1:18:23] Sorry, you fought like about the drugging?
[1:18:24] Yes yes he was he was very adamant that he didn't do it and that i'm crazy and that i need to go get a drug test and do the drug test to prove it and if it does come back positive he'll spend forever apologizing and if it doesn't that i need to apologize and like.
[1:18:46] He just had a lot of bizarre behavior um so i go to work and i'm talking with my friends about what's happening with me and they're horrified and they tell me that i need to take drugs to the police station and give it to them and tell them what's been happening oh i skipped over a part two so um we were we were fighting all night long and the night's coming to an end and I'm trying to calm things down.
[1:19:20] And reconcile with him. I go to give him a hug. He pushes me off of him, says, don't touch me. I go to give him a hug. He pushes me off of him, says, don't touch me. I try to hug him again and then he kicks me off the bed. And that's how we end the night. Next day, talking with my friends. They're terrified. Tell me to go to the police. That's what I do. I get off work. I go directly to the police station. I bring the Molly with me. I tell them what happened last night. I tell them about hugging him and him shoving me off of him. I tell them about, I've been using these drugs. I don't want to use these drugs anymore. I'm disappointed in myself for doing so. and they took the bag with the molly in it to the back and they did not charge me for that i am very very grateful because that could have been a felony um but they did charge me for domestic battery um.
[1:20:29] I have a piece of paperwork right here. On January 24th, it says, actually, potentially touch or strike of person. Her husband, against the will of husband, repeatedly wrapping her arms around him. Repeatedly wrapped her arms around the victim, kept pushing her away, telling her to stop grabbing him. She did not listen. He kept trying to wrap her arms around him. um yeah so then i spent 24 hours sorry and that was just.
[1:21:07] Based upon your testimony this is not something.
[1:21:09] That your.
[1:21:09] Husband had any involvement in right.
[1:21:10] No this is just me and then after they took the baggie back and came back they read me my miranda rights and they were giving me the opportunity to keep my mouth shut um but then they asked me you know did you wrap your arms around your husband with him not wanting you to and I said yes because that was the truth I did do that I did try to hug my husband and make things better, and they read me my rights and I knew I should have just kept quiet and not said anything but that was the truth so I said it and they arrested me, for hugging.
[1:21:44] Your husband against his will yeah, that doesn't make much sense to me but I'm no lawyer but alright okay so you got arrested.
[1:21:55] It's great I just read it to you that's the difference right here, they could have arrested me for drugs they could have arrested me for, possession and um i could tell that the female cop that arrested me like, she didn't want to but it qualified with with my state's um domestic violence charges we have very strict no power no tolerance laws in my state where if you if anybody puts their hands on anybody you're going to jail well if the other person.
[1:22:33] Doesn't want you to yeah yeah.
[1:22:36] Yes if the other person doesn't want you to yes you were like no holds barred and and i see that now and i don't it i did it i did it so if they feel like i needed to go to jail for it then, that's i did and that's fair um so i spent 24 hours there and it was definitely like uh okay I feel like this is where this kind of... Oh, she just said my name.
[1:23:01] It's all right. I'll make a note of that. Sorry, go ahead.
[1:23:03] I'm so sorry. I'm sorry. Just like, okay, like you don't want to be in this space. You don't want to be in this place. You need to change your behaviors. You need to change your actions. You need to stop doing the same things that are getting you in this position. So when I... Get out of being arrested. I have an order of protection placed on me now. Right?
[1:23:38] Yeah.
[1:23:39] So that means I cannot be at the condo. I cannot contact my husband. And I cannot come near my husband in any way, shape, or form. If I do, I can be arrested again.
[1:23:56] And how long does that last for?
[1:23:58] 10 days.
[1:23:59] Okay.
[1:24:00] I have the paperwork for that as well. And so it was...
[1:24:12] 10 days so uh at that point i am out of jail i am in my work clothes from the night before, um i'm kind of panicking i i go home my condo i go back to my condo at uber i take an uber back to my condo um i ate some food i slept the night there but, But then I just kept remembering what the judge told me that, you know, do not go back to your place of residence. Do not go back to your place of residence. I don't care what the other person said. Listen to what I am telling you. And I was scared and I left. So I packed all my shit and I stayed in the hotel room for four days. And I didn't tell my husband, obviously, because I couldn't talk to him. And I didn't tell my parents because I didn't trust them with how they sided with him the first time that he hit me. And I didn't trust any of them, quite frankly, none of them.
[1:25:22] And I spent four days separate from everybody. And then, oh, fucking hell, I'm sorry.
[1:25:32] That's fine.
[1:25:33] Make another comment. I'm sorry. I won't do it again. Oh, I don't care if you swear.
[1:25:37] I don't care if you swear. Don't worry about it.
[1:25:38] No i i said a name oh.
[1:25:40] Okay okay uh.
[1:25:41] Sorry um then my husband got me baker acted.
[1:25:53] Got you what.
[1:25:54] Baker acted.
[1:25:56] Okay that's uh that's uh institutionalized is it.
[1:26:02] It's where the police will take you to be institute for a for a psychiatric evaluation for 24 hours, you are involuntarily institutionalized. Yes, sir. Which is the most horrible thing. And he knows that. So this is my third day in the hotel room. I finally feel comfortable enough to call my parents. I call them. They inform me that successfully got me.
[1:26:34] Can you please stop with the names? Come on.
[1:26:36] Oh, I'm sorry.
[1:26:37] Come on. Come on. Don't give me this much work for a free call.
[1:26:41] I know, Stefan.
[1:26:42] I know, Stefan. Fourth or fifth time. I'm just begging you. I'm begging you.
[1:26:45] I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm getting up. I'm going to a different spot. Maybe that will help.
[1:26:49] Okay. Go ahead.
[1:26:49] I'll get more focused. I'll get more focused. Okay.
[1:26:51] All right.
[1:26:52] No more. My bad.
[1:26:54] That's all right.
[1:26:54] They informed me that my husband had successfully gotten me Baker Acted, and they were trying to instruct me to turn myself in.
[1:27:09] And I did not want to do that for, one, I have a job to do at my work. It's more important to me than ever. I need to have my duties and responsibilities covered. two i didn't trust them i didn't know if what that they were telling me was true or not i didn't know if they were just trying to get me to go and institution institutionalize myself because, they just didn't like my behavior um i didn't like any of it so i told them no and uh the sheriff picked me up at my place of work at the end of my shift i was cooperative and kind went along with him um my parents are i do appreciate this they they drove all the way down and talked with them before they took me so they wouldn't they would take me to a better facility and the facility that I went to was very nice, um it took me, gosh it took me until 6 o'clock in the morning to get to my final hospital um, well oh god I mean you know what at this.
[1:28:35] Point don't worry about it just just use the names I'll do AI afterwards okay go ahead.
[1:28:43] He got me back reacted for all the same things that he was mentioning to you freaking out about. And the doctors at the institution said, I probably do have some borderline tendencies. I probably do have some abandonment issues. I probably do have some relationship issues. i definitely have ptsd and survivor's guilt and from the accident yes and uh and they encouraged me they gave me some specialized facilities and support groups and top groups to go work with, and uh honestly i just try to make the best of the situation but in the end my partner my husband was very adamant on me getting a diagnosis that never happened sorry.
[1:29:44] What do you mean.
[1:29:45] I mean that he was telling my parents and telling um my therapists and telling people around me that he believes i have borderline schizoaffective disorder, yeah amateur.
[1:30:04] Diagnosis stuff is usually not very helpful but anyway.
[1:30:07] And me.
[1:30:08] Amateurs can't diagnose but anyway go ahead.
[1:30:09] They can't and it's just they just want big scary.
[1:30:13] Words to you know make themselves feel justified usually i mean if if if you have all of these mental health issues uh and he's been with you for seven years despite meeting you when he was 10 years older what does that say about him.
[1:30:25] Oh um says that he does not have good judgment doesn't well it's.
[1:30:34] More than that i mean in a sense all mental health issues are not good judgment that doesn't clarify much right.
[1:30:40] Yeah, But there has been a lot of crazy-making, and a part of me does feel crazy.
[1:30:50] Okay, let me ask you this, because this is the general thesis that I came into this conversation with. So, a general thesis doesn't mean that I'm right. How crazy do you feel while you're talking to me?
[1:31:03] I don't feel very crazy at all. Right.
[1:31:06] So, disturbed people amplify craziness with each other.
[1:31:12] Yeah. Right?
[1:31:13] So that's my general thought. Because look, I'm sure you've been around people occasionally in your life who are going through some significant, let's just say, I don't know, be as nice as possible, some significant cognitive crisis, right? Like I remember meeting a guy sort of many years ago, and he was just like rambling and nothing made any sense. And you could sort of see this sort of mental disintegration going on and it didn't matter whether it was private or public whether he like it was just this was a crisis that was going on in his mind and, you i couldn't i mean i'm pretty good at talking people out of some dysfunctional thinking but i couldn't like i don't know if it was something biological or whatever i couldn't do a thing with this guy. So, so, If you're crazy, like, I don't know, genuinely crazy, I mean, like, I mean, I know that's a pretty amateur term, but let's say that you're going through some hallucinogenic, schizophrenic, whatever, whatever, right?
[1:32:19] Yeah.
[1:32:21] You can't be talked out of that. You can't be more reasonable when you're with somebody more reasonable.
[1:32:25] When someone is telling, when a schizophrenic person thinks that someone on the radio is talking to them, like, you can't convince them otherwise. I do believe that a true delusion is a delusion.
[1:32:36] Yeah, I talked to this guy on my show many years ago who believed he was being gang-stalked, and the reason he believed that was that he heard some sounds coming from his cupboard, which he shared a wall with with someone else in a duplex, I think it was. He heard some sounds coming from his cupboard, and I'm like, you know, that really is not proof.
[1:32:54] There's no correlation.
[1:32:55] It didn't matter, right?
[1:32:57] Yes, it didn't.
[1:33:01] So one of the reasons i was curious to have this conversation i mean other than it's nice to chat with people about interesting topics but was okay so if if she's crazy right then she should be crazy when she's talking to me and my theory my thesis was that you would not be crazy when you were talking to me do.
[1:33:19] You think i'm crazy.
[1:33:19] Well i if i'm talking to you obviously you've got some, upset and you've got some challenges and you know decisions are not ideal and you are a self-described weed addict so yeah you've got some stuff to work on but in terms of like i've been with a really like i've known really crazy people i mean i was raised by a kind of crazy person so i would say that and i'm grateful i'm.
[1:33:45] Grateful that you share as much as you you're very vulnerable you're very open and it's a hard thing to do and i i appreciate that.
[1:33:52] I appreciate that too thank you I appreciate your appreciation. So in terms of this conversation, though, I mean, do you feel crazy?
[1:34:01] No, it's been helpful to kind of lay it all out. And it felt, if I felt crazier listening to the conversation you had with my husband, so many of the details were wrong. So, so much of the times, even, you know, the structures. And I guess that bothered me more because like that, like that can't be argued. That's reality, you know?
[1:34:28] Well, and of course, I know that I'm just hearing one side of the story, but okay. Okay. So as far, I don't feel that you're like crazy in this conversation. That's not my experience.
[1:34:37] Thank you.
[1:34:38] And so, yeah. So for me, I'm like, I'm always curious, like, is it just that crazy people make each other crazier?
[1:34:44] I think crazy people make each other crazier.
[1:34:46] It's like a virus that you share back and forth. It just gets worse every time you cough in each other's vicinity, right?
[1:34:52] Because I do. Like when I'm around my husband, he brings out the worst in me and I'm not proud of that. and I would like to get away from that. How much of that is the relationship and how much of that is how I handle relationships? You know?
[1:35:09] Well, you can't be more sane than the people around you, fundamentally, because we're social animals, which means that a lot of our mental processing is shared with others.
[1:35:20] And you can't really think unless you're speaking.
[1:35:23] Right, yeah, but that's why we invent language. This is why we have a culture, civilization, books, conversations. You can't, like, if you want to be sane, you have to have sane people around you. Like, there's no other way to do it. You can't dive in and try and make crazy people sane because they'll just win. Because they'll do things that you won't do.
[1:35:43] Right. Like crazy corrupt people. And I'm not talking about you or your husband here in particular. Right. Because I know it's both sides of the story and and all that. Right. But no. But what I'm saying is that really, really disturbed people, like dangerously disturbed people, corrupt people, immoral people. the reason you can't win against them is that they'll do things that you won't do they'll lie they'll gaslight they'll manipulate they'll shamelessly uh accuse you of things they'll they'll project they'll like they'll do all of these things it's kind of like going into a a boxing match you know where you've got the gloves on and you've got the mouth guard and you can't hit below the belt and there's lots of moves that aren't allowed and then there's someone else who will just shoot you or drug you uh or something like that and it's like well that's not a fair fight anymore right it's like if you try to play chess and someone says oh yeah my all my pawns can use can move as well as my queen which is the most powerful character it's like you can't win that game because they will yeah you can't win the game because then you're not playing the same game they're playing win no matter what and you're playing follow the rules and when you are trying to play a game with people who are like win no matter what and you're trying to play the rules you'll lose and so if you if you and your husband have certain like you know dysfunctional elements which we all have right yeah and you guys amplify each other yes then it's good you're out.
[1:37:12] It is it is good.
[1:37:14] And it's good for it's not just good for you guys it's good for society I agree.
[1:37:19] I just started your relationships book.
[1:37:22] Oh, yeah, Real Time Relationships. Yeah, yeah.
[1:37:24] Real Time Relationships book. And I'm only two hours into it, but it's really... Looking at myself, looking at how we just set each other off and point fingers, it's not useful, it's not helpful. And like you said, to the greater of society.
[1:37:42] Oh, yeah, because, I mean, you guys are going to hurt not just each other, but somebody else probably along the line. So, especially if you got pregnant or something.
[1:37:50] Absolutely.
[1:37:50] Okay. So then the question is, why do you make these bad decisions? To get involved with a guy, to stay with a guy, to, you know, with this relationship. I mean, did you have a feeling it was about to start working out, this seven-year slugfest?
[1:38:05] Nope. It felt like it was only going to get worse. It felt like I was going to turn into him. It felt like eventually my morals and an ability to hold to my own was going to be chipped away, and I would just sink down to his level, and then I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror.
[1:38:20] Okay. So why were you in pursuit of that?
[1:38:24] I was in pursuit of that because i was stuck on being married because i was stuck on no no because you.
[1:38:37] Knew him for a year and seven months before you got.
[1:38:41] Married because because i was stuck on being a victim because i was stuck on yes but.
[1:38:46] That doesn't explain why you were stuck on being a victim, right?
[1:38:51] That's my M.O. is what I'm used to, is what's familiar.
[1:38:57] No, but what's familiar can be exactly what you avoid. I'm sure you know the one guy, the twins, right?
[1:39:05] No.
[1:39:06] One of them says, oh man, I never touch alcohol because my father was an alcoholic and I just, I saw how bad it is, right? Like Dr. Phil doesn't touch alcohol because his brother died of alcoholism.
[1:39:16] Oh, I didn't know that.
[1:39:17] Yeah. So one guy could say, oh, man, I don't touch alcohol because I saw what it did to my dad, right? And the other guy, his brother, says, oh, I'm a drunk because my dad was a drunk.
[1:39:30] Oh.
[1:39:30] It's all I'm used to. That's what I'm used to. So what I'm used to doesn't explain.
[1:39:35] Okay.
[1:39:36] So would you like to know why you make bad decisions?
[1:39:39] I would love to know why I make bad decisions.
[1:39:41] All right. So the reason you make bad decisions is you won't hold your father accountable.
[1:39:48] I do not.
[1:39:50] Now, how do I know that you don't hold your father accountable?
[1:39:55] Because I'm choosing men that are similar to him?
[1:39:58] No, that's an effect, right? So the reason that I know directly is you've told me that.
[1:40:02] How do you? Oh.
[1:40:04] You've given your father a lot of excuses. And you also said your father, he couldn't control his temper. He wasn't in control of his behavior and all of that, right?
[1:40:13] Yes.
[1:40:14] That's false. How do you make excuses? No, that's false. Okay, well, maybe it's not. Okay, let me ask you this. Let me ask you this. When he called you these horrible words, like stupid, lazy, whore, I'm sure he threw a couple of bitches in there. So when he called you these horrible words, did he ever do it at a mall where other people could hear? No. No? Did he ever do it at a parent-teacher conference? Did he ever do it when there were policemen around? Did he ever do it in a situation where he would get criticized or ostracized or blamed in public no.
[1:40:49] He was always very pleasant when then the people were watching.
[1:40:52] Right so he is in perfect control of his behavior absolutely so if somebody has epilepsy they have epilepsy no matter what right oh.
[1:41:00] God yeah they can't they can't turn it.
[1:41:02] On right so your father is 100 completely and totally responsible and was never out of control at all, Let me ask you this. Was there ever a time where he was fucked up on his own anger juice and then ding dong, right? The doorbell rings and he's like, oh, hi, you know, just turns it right off. Or the phone rings and he's pleasant.
[1:41:31] I was, yes, there have been times where we're at work and he's yelling at me about something and then a customer comes and all of a sudden it's everything's fine.
[1:41:40] He's fine, right?
[1:41:41] Yeah.
[1:41:42] Right. So that tells you that your father is 100% in control of his temper.
[1:41:51] So he's using it.
[1:41:53] He's a bully.
[1:41:54] Knowingly.
[1:41:55] Yep. He uses it knowingly. He turns it on and off to get what he wants. He's not a rage guy. He's not out of control, right? Because out of control people can't suddenly switch their behavior. If some guy's got a giant tumor on his neck, it doesn't vanish where the doorbell rings.
[1:42:12] Yeah.
[1:42:13] Right?
[1:42:14] Yeah. He has full autonomy and ability to conduct himself in a different way, and he chooses not to. Right.
[1:42:24] So he's a bully because he'll be an abusive asshole to his daughter, who's helpless and dependent upon him. But anyone, like a customer, that he wants something from, he turns on the charm and would never in a million years do anything like that, right?
[1:42:41] Yes.
[1:42:45] Now, do you feel that your mother was out of control of her life or the situation?
[1:42:53] Out of control of her life? Yes.
[1:42:57] Okay. And in what ways was she out of control of her life?
[1:43:03] She was out of control of her life in the ways that, She was out of control of her life in the way that... She was a very... Why am I having such a tough time answering this question? She was out of control of her own autonomy, her own sense of taking care of herself.
[1:43:34] I don't know. Don't give me word salads and psychobabble. I'm trying. No, I'm just saying that that's not an answer. Tell me, tell me, how was she out of... Look, if your mother was kidnapped, right? Let's say you didn't see your mother for two weeks and it turns out she was kidnapped.
[1:43:48] Okay.
[1:43:49] Right? And held hostage. Is she responsible for not calling you for two weeks?
[1:43:54] No.
[1:43:55] Okay. So there's someone who's out of control of their life. They've been kidnapped. They're locked up in a basement. They got no phone, right?
[1:44:01] Oh, then she wasn't out of control.
[1:44:03] Okay.
[1:44:03] She had complete control. That's why I was having a tough time finding that because there was no answer to that. The answer is no.
[1:44:09] Well, I'm not trying to trick you. I'm really not. Like, I mean, if there was something.
[1:44:13] I was looking for it. I couldn't find it because it wasn't there.
[1:44:16] Okay. So your mother had perfect responsibility and autonomy.
[1:44:21] She did. You're right.
[1:44:22] Right. And your father had perfect responsibility and autonomy. Now, if your parents had had some sort of, like, let's say your father, it turned out he did have a brain tumor, right? That destroyed his executive functioning and turned him into kind of a lizard-brained feral ape or something like that, right? Okay, then we would say, look, that's really traumatic and that's really awful. But, I mean, he had a brain tumor, so we're not going to hold him 100% morally responsible. Now, there may be some responsibility in that his behavior got worse and worse. He didn't go see a doctor.
[1:44:55] Yeah.
[1:44:56] Right? But he doesn't have a brain tumor, right?
[1:44:59] He does not.
[1:45:00] Because you gave me, well, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And this is why I said earlier, the guy did have the railway spike through the head guy, right?
[1:45:07] Yep.
[1:45:12] So, how has your relationship been like with your parents over the past 12 years since you've become an adult?
[1:45:23] Moving out was very helpful. My relationship with my father has become more distant, less enmeshed since I stopped working for him. I am closer with my mom now that I don't live at home. I feel as if I'm harder on her and I should be harder on him. He's hurt me a lot more than she has, but I feel like I can talk to her better. So I give her the opportunity because she has apologized and wished that she had done better.
[1:46:02] Sorry, are they still together?
[1:46:03] They are.
[1:46:05] So... tell me about the apology thing when did that happen how did that come about.
[1:46:10] Uh we went on a trip together just the two of us and it i i wanted to make it a point to try to connect with her more and and speak my mind and and give her the opportunity to reconcile and i she did, she did to the best of her ability she's not very oh lord.
[1:46:32] Will you stop.
[1:46:33] It to.
[1:46:34] The best of her ability What do you know the best of her ability is? It's excuses.
[1:46:40] I'm not God. I don't know what her abilities are.
[1:46:42] Okay, so I'm just, I'm going to be, I hope not annoying. I'm sure it is a little annoying.
[1:46:48] Go ahead, push back.
[1:46:48] But I'm going to be pretty blunt, right? Yep. Right? So you don't know to the best of her ability is just a coping phrase.
[1:46:56] For sure.
[1:46:57] Right? You don't know. the best of her ability would have been the first time that your mother mistreated her or you, to make an absolute demand that he never do it again that he go to anger management that he get counseling that he figure this shit out or she's she's out that.
[1:47:15] Would have been that would have changed my life entirely.
[1:47:17] Absolutely and and it might have actually helped your father maybe he would have gone to therapy got anger management and learned a better way oh done better yeah.
[1:47:25] And that would have been good for everybody.
[1:47:27] How long was your mother, with your father before they had you?
[1:47:37] Three years. Oh, well, no. Seven, eight, nine, ten years.
[1:47:41] Ten years.
[1:47:43] Ten years.
[1:47:44] Ten years, your mother is with a guy who's horribly abusive. Is that too hard a phrase?
[1:47:53] No. What they did, he was way more abusive with her than he was with me. So horribly abusive with them.
[1:48:00] Okay, so she is with a guy for ten years.
[1:48:03] Yes.
[1:48:03] Who's horribly abusive, and then she not only gives him a child, but keeps that child in his orbit, decade after decade, year after year. She served him up voluntarily. Your mother served your father up, a brand new helpless victim, and kept that brand new helpless victim in his orbit where he called her a whore year after year after year after year and you're telling me the best she can do is a half apology no.
[1:48:44] No she could have done better you're right i don't that's that's not enough.
[1:48:49] So
[1:48:55] When you put it like that, I mean...
[1:48:56] Well, I'm not trying to put it any way. I'm trying to be as accurate as possible. Okay, who is a girl, a little girl in your life that you care about the most?
[1:49:07] My cousin.
[1:49:08] Your cousin, okay. And how old is your cousin? Twelve. She's twelve?
[1:49:15] Mm-hmm.
[1:49:16] You know where I'm going with this, right?
[1:49:18] Go ahead.
[1:49:19] All right. So, your cousin, let's call her Sally, all right? so Sally is 12 years old innocent as the day is long eager positive optimistic happy curious creative all the good things that kids generally are now let's say, that, Kathy sorry let's say that um, sorry I just went off in six million different directions in my brain what to be a great Call her Sally, right? Sally? Did we agree to call her Sally? Is that right?
[1:49:58] Sally. Okay.
[1:49:59] So what's Sally's mother's relationship to you?
[1:50:07] She's kind, but we're not close.
[1:50:10] No, no, I mean genetically.
[1:50:11] Oh, oh, sorry. My mother's brother's daughter.
[1:50:18] Mother's brother's daughter. Okay, got it. All right. So, let's say that Sally calls you up and she's in tears because her mother hired a babysitter who called her a whore and stupid and maybe even a bitch. And she's told her mother, and her mother is like, deal with it. He's the best babysitter, or he's the best babysitter we've got. He's going to keep coming over once or twice a week.
[1:50:53] That would make me very upset.
[1:50:55] Okay, that would make you very upset that Sally, your precious cousin, was being called a whore and stupid by a babysitter that her mother had promised to keep hiring, right?
[1:51:06] Yeah. Now, if...
[1:51:10] Sally's mother calls you up, what would you tell her?
[1:51:16] I would tell her that she's being cruel and uncaring.
[1:51:24] Okay, what would you say to her about keeping to hire the babysitter who called Sally a whore?
[1:51:35] There are other options out there. Why would you allow your child to be around anybody who would diminish them like that? How can you're saying it's okay? You're saying it's okay by allowing it to happen.
[1:51:49] Right.
[1:51:50] Do you think that's okay?
[1:51:51] By keeping the abuser, by keeping the abusive babysitter in your family, you're doing wrong.
[1:51:59] It is.
[1:52:00] Right. Okay. Let's step it up one more notch and then I'll ask the final question. The next notch is you have a daughter. What's your favorite female name?
[1:52:09] Lily I'm sorry?
[1:52:11] Lily Lily, it's a lovely name Okay So let's say that you have a lovely daughter, Lily And Lily is three years old, And your father babysits Lily You come home And Lily tells you in halting, sobbing tones That your father has abused her, Verbally, physically, whatever, right?
[1:52:41] Yes.
[1:52:42] What happens? He's still there.
[1:52:49] I would probably fly into a rage, which is not useful.
[1:52:54] No, no, I'm not trying to do, let's not judge what happens, but what would your impulse be? What would happen, impulse-wise?
[1:53:00] Impulse-wise, if my daughter told me that my father hit her, hurt her, called her a name, would be to rip her away from him as fast as possible and create a wall between the two.
[1:53:21] So would your father be welcome as a babysitter on his own again?
[1:53:26] No.
[1:53:27] Okay. Okay. So you would cut off your daughter from your father if your father abused her?
[1:53:37] I would.
[1:53:38] Okay. So why is your father in your life?
[1:53:44] I live in his house.
[1:53:46] That's not an answer.
[1:53:52] I'm too scared to face what he did to me.
[1:53:57] Why is your daughter, Lily, worthy of protection for one shred of abuse by your father, but you somehow are not, despite the fact that it's been going on for decades?
[1:54:11] I am. I am, but I haven't been holding myself to that.
[1:54:15] No, no. And the reason is, the question is why? Why, when I talk about another child being briefly abused by someone, are you absolutely outraged? But when you look at your own abuse of many decades, you make excuses for your father. Now, if you had your daughter Lily be abused by your father, would you say, oh, you know, his heart's in the right place, but sometimes he's not in full control of his temper, and blah, blah, blah, right? He'll be back.
[1:54:44] I would never put that on her.
[1:54:47] Okay, then why are you telling me this nonsense about you and your father? you know i'm a universal moral guy which means if you would be outraged and cut off a child, from your abusive father why are you in his house why is that an option and don't say it's just because of the divorce because the divorce and the marriage occurred because of your lack of these standards you create and i'm not blaming you for this at all i'm not blaming you i really want you to hear that. I'm not blaming you. These are survival mechanisms that all victims of child abuse have to create, which is to create these magical portals of opposite morality, wherein the people who abuse us are just not responsible. It's the only way we can survive.
[1:55:35] The only way we can survive.
[1:55:36] Because if we try to hold people responsible who have abusive and sadistic power over us, we're screwed.
[1:55:44] Because they'll use it.
[1:55:45] Well, they'll escalate. They'll escalate.
[1:55:51] To very extreme levels.
[1:55:54] Oh, you don't know where that's going to end. But it's not going to end well. So we evolved to appease powerful abusers when we couldn't escape them, right?
[1:56:06] Yeah.
[1:56:08] So as a kid, you had to make excuses for your mother and your father because otherwise you would have confronted them on their wrongdoing. You would have gone to the police. you would have gone to a teacher, you would have gone to a relative, you would have gone to a priest, and you would have said, my father keeps calling me a whore. And then, you know, atomic mushroom cloud explosion over the household, right?
[1:56:37] Yeah.
[1:56:38] God knows where that would have gone. Or rather, the devil knows where that would have gone, right?
[1:56:45] Yes.
[1:56:45] So this was an absolutely essential survival mechanism that I'm very, very, very glad you did. Good for you. Well done. Excellent. That's primo survival.
[1:56:56] But I'm not in that circumstance anymore, so now it's time to develop out of that survival.
[1:57:02] So the excuses for your father is where your husband got through.
[1:57:08] Absolutely.
[1:57:09] Because you make excuses for him, your father, you make excuses for him, your ex-husband, and you make excuses for yourself.
[1:57:18] Yes. I do.
[1:57:21] Why are you still on hourly marijuana 12 years after the accident? It's to numb yourself to the consequences of these excuses, in my humble opinion.
[1:57:36] I agree. I agree.
[1:57:39] If you stop having excuses, see, the excuses keep you in perpetual danger because you have abusers around you, unrepentant abusers. So the excuses keep you in perpetual danger, and in order to numb the terror of that perpetual danger, you do daily marijuana, hourly marijuana, wake and bake, right?
[1:57:57] Absolutely. Absolutely. It's a numbs mistake. It's a brand.
[1:58:06] In my view, any parent who says to their 12-year-old daughter, We're putting you on birth control. Should be in jail.
[1:58:14] I don't think that that's proper guidance or structure.
[1:58:20] It's beyond horrifying. A 12-year-old child cannot consent to sex.
[1:58:26] They shouldn't. I don't feel like I was able to. And it is kind of a cruel joke of nature to get young women to be developing so early on when they don't even have the mental capacity to...
[1:58:37] Well, that's evolutionary stuff, right? so, but a 12-year-old child cannot consent to sex.
[1:58:41] It's a cruel joke of nature.
[1:58:42] Yeah, a 12-year-old child cannot consent to sex, so they're basically making sure that you, as a rape victim, don't get pregnant. It is evil almost beyond words.
[1:58:59] It's not anything I plan on reproducing or advocating for.
[1:59:06] Okay, let's do it again. Your father gives your 12-year-old daughter, Lily, birth control.
[1:59:13] Hell no.
[1:59:15] Saying, yeah, go for the sex, but just don't get pregnant. and you find out that your father is giving your precious daughter at the age of 12 birth control.
[1:59:26] Okay, that's messed up.
[1:59:29] Would he be welcome in your house?
[1:59:31] No.
[1:59:32] So why are you welcome in your heart? I'm trying to rouse you to have the same defense of yourself as you have for an imaginary daughter. like you're very real.
[1:59:49] Yeah and I want to be here I enjoy being me it's I need to create boundaries from these people that.
[2:00:04] Look at the age of 18 you should not have been drinking, drugging maybe cocaine wandering around the streets yeah But you started drinking under your parents' tutelage and care at the age of 11. I mean, I've heard some messed up time in my almost 20 years of doing these shows. This is one of the most messed up ones. I'm telling you straight up, you had it really, really, really bad, my friend. And I am so sorry for that.
[2:00:37] Thank you.
[2:00:42] When was the last time you were truly sober.
[2:00:48] That's a good question um, when.
[2:00:57] Which means a couple of months off drinking drugs.
[2:00:59] Yeah um i went three months no pot no drinking no anything i want to say a few months after the the second blow up, and and then i i slipped up i i went my somebody at my job had a vape pen a weed vape pen and i hit it and then it was all downhill from i let it i let a slip become a slide and it was all downhill from there for the last time okay so in.
[2:01:26] The almost 20 years that you've been drinking and off and on right for the most part i know it was 11 and then 14 for marijuana right.
[2:01:35] So in.
[2:01:36] The 15 to 19 years you've been sober for a couple of months.
[2:01:44] Yeah since i was 14 i'm 25 now the longest i've ever gone without pot is three months yeah and.
[2:01:53] It was once right.
[2:01:54] Just once just to see if i could do it and And then I failed myself.
[2:02:02] Okay. Why? Okay, let me ask you this. Have your parents sat down with an intervention for you?
[2:02:12] They support my pot use. If I run out, they offer to buy me more. They offer to get my card. They want me smoking pot.
[2:02:22] Okay. Why do they want you smoking pot?
[2:02:24] Because my dad smokes pot, and they think that it's a healthier option, and they think that I need to be on some sort of substance, so if I do choose one, they're glad that it's pot.
[2:02:37] Okay, at what age did your parents start giving you pot?
[2:02:44] Like 15, 16, I could go and ask my dad.
[2:02:48] Okay, no, just trust your memories. Okay, so let's say that your 15-year-old lovely, beautiful daughter, Lily, you find out that your father has been giving her pot to smoke.
[2:03:02] At 15?
[2:03:04] Yeah.
[2:03:04] Yeah, no. When you put things like that, it's so much more fucked up.
[2:03:11] Well, I'm trying to denormalize the living shit Out of this stuff for you, my friend I'm trying to seriously denormalize All of this It's.
[2:03:19] Gotten so normal.
[2:03:22] It's gotten so normal that your husband Seems sane Or normal.
[2:03:28] No Yeah 100% 100% No, if my father came to me And said, he just gave Lily My 15-year-old daughter Oh.
[2:03:41] No, he didn't tell you. You just found out about it.
[2:03:43] Oh, I just found out about it. No, absolutely. That's disgusting.
[2:03:52] And you find out that your father's been giving you, giving your lovely daughter, Lily, marijuana at the age of 15, and then you also find out he's been giving her birth control pills since she was 12. Is he welcome back in your house?
[2:04:10] No, I don't think that he loves her And I don't think that he cares for her The way that he should Okay.
[2:04:17] And let's say that your mother Knew all about this, And never told you Would she still be a victim Out of control of her life And owe the poor dear No.
[2:04:28] She's not dumb She's not an idiot She knows what's up.
[2:04:31] Did your mother know, or did she participate In the supplying of marijuana to you When you were 15 Yep She knew.
[2:04:42] She was okay with that.
[2:04:44] Okay. So, you don't have to tell me where you live, but in most places, in fact, I think just about every place, your parents are criminals. Yeah. Right? Supplying drugs to underage, even if the drugs themselves are legal, you can't give them to 15-year-olds.
[2:05:08] No. No. because their brains aren't developed. That's why we have these laws in place that are supposed to keep people from hurting themselves.
[2:05:15] Right. And if your parents are encouraged you have sex at the age of 12 when you can't consent, then they're enabling, well, we can come up with a bunch of different words. I'm sure it's pretty clear, right?
[2:05:29] Yeah.
[2:05:30] Okay.
[2:05:34] They were enabling. What is the price?
[2:05:37] Okay. What's your favorite male name?
[2:05:42] Victor.
[2:05:43] Victor. All right. Hopefully his middle name is Yalo. So it's Victor Y. Victory. All right.
[2:05:49] Oh, that'd be cute.
[2:05:50] That'd be cute, right? That'd be cute, right? There you go. That's your son's name. All right. So Victor.
[2:05:54] No, that was the last one we picked up.
[2:05:56] Right, right. Okay. So Victor is a great guy. He's moral, strong, self-assured, confident, virtuous, all kinds of stuff, right? Now, Victor sees you across a crowded gym past the giant tripods of cameras, right? So Victor sees you and he's like, wow, she's really, she's cool. She looks like she's got a great laugh. She's pretty, you know, whatever, right? And he comes over and starts talking to you and you chat with him and you find out that you have, you know, a decent amount in common and you like the same things and all of that, right?
[2:06:26] Uh-huh.
[2:06:28] And you go on a couple of dates and then, of course, you know, he's going to ask you about your childhood and your family and so on, right?
[2:06:34] Right.
[2:06:35] And i.
[2:06:36] Would hope so i i would i would be so happy to have that.
[2:06:39] No he would he would interest.
[2:06:41] In in me.
[2:06:42] No he would ask you because he's a moral guy and a careful guy so he doesn't want to get involved in somebody who's embedded or enmeshed in a corrupt family situation, because victor is dating like every intelligent person dates or any wise person dates when they know this factor he's dating not for his balls but for his future children yes right so he's going to say not is she pretty which is not unimportant it's not unimportant but he's going to say will she be a good mother yes because that's what marriage i mean that's why there are men and women it's to be mothers and fathers and that's why marriage exists so there's a stable place for children to be raised to.
[2:07:27] Grow and become what.
[2:07:29] He's going to look at you and say will she be a good mother yes right as he should all right now being a good mother means that his children are going to be in a good environment to be raised right yes right i mean you can't be a good mother necessarily in wartime you can just maybe not you can take some of the edge off the Disaster, right? Okay, so he's going to say, oh, okay, so this is your father and this is your mother and you tell him all the things you've told me, right? What is the price of having your parents in your life in the eyes of Uber Chad Alpha Victor? What does he look at when you say, oh, I'm still living with the people who abused me?
[2:08:20] He would scan my father and say, I can get away with everything that he has done to her because she has not drawn any boundaries. She has not...
[2:08:29] No, no, no. He won't want to do that. Oh, I'm so sorry. I have to denormalize that too. no he's gonna say that's really sad that's really sad but i can't have these people as as in-laws i can't have these people around my kids i can't have these people around my family, not oh great i can get away with that that's you know that's that's dysfunctional he doesn't want that he will have sympathy this is a healthy person yeah this is a healthy person healthy okay a moral guy a good guy and all of that right okay.
[2:08:55] I'm sorry a healthy person is no they're not going to want their children anywhere near that. They're not going to want... No, not that they wouldn't want it. They wouldn't allow it. It wouldn't happen at all. Which means that I'm canceling myself out.
[2:09:14] Okay. Now, and then you say, oh, by the way, I do drugs every hour. Is he going to be like, that's going to be great. I'm sure the babies raised on milk THC are fantastic.
[2:09:30] Well, no, firstly, that's not cute. It's not a cute look at all. I don't think that being a stoner is sad, even though it's been normalized. It's just as sad as being any other kind of drug addict. And absolutely not do I think that it's okay to be consuming marijuana while you are pregnant or while you're breastfeeding.
[2:09:52] No, it's while you're dating. It's while you're dating. Yeah. Because you don't get to the pregnancy or breastfeeding if the guy won't touch you with a 10-foot pole.
[2:10:03] Yeah.
[2:10:04] If you're a stoner.
[2:10:07] Yes.
[2:10:08] Because he's going to be like, I haven't even met this woman. I don't know what she's like. I just know what she's like on drugs.
[2:10:15] Oh.
[2:10:17] I don't know who she is.
[2:10:19] That's totally fair. I am two totally different people when I'm lying.
[2:10:24] Well, and even if I like her a lot I mean, and even if she's fine Off drugs, We've got to go through the whole quitting thing Yeah Now, the quitting thing Is a pretty hard burden to put on a new Relationship, isn't it?
[2:10:41] Um, yeah Yeah, I mean, it's a burden to put on the other Person of like, oh, I'm quitting for you That's not cool, you should be quitting No.
[2:10:48] No, but the process is quitting Yeah.
[2:10:51] In general Yes, it is Because.
[2:10:54] I mean, I think my general theory, I'm not saying I have any proof, my general theory is that emotional development tends to stop when the drugs are used.
[2:11:04] Oh, so I have some arrested development, and when I stop smoking pot, I'm going to kind of be like a 12-year-old again?
[2:11:11] Well, I think it was 14 or 15. But okay, so the reason I say that is if I look at your attraction to your ex-husband, it was like teenage girls screaming at the Beatles. He's so pretty.
[2:11:23] Oh, yeah. Oh, 100%.
[2:11:25] Right. And then that's why you stayed, right? Yeah. I mean, if he had put on 50 pounds, the marriage wouldn't have lasted. Nope.
[2:11:33] He knew that. That's why he took the gym so seriously.
[2:11:36] Right. So he's going to say all of the emotions that are buried by the drugs are going to come out and have to be dealt with.
[2:11:46] Yes, they should. And dreams, too. I can't wait to have dreams again. I feel like there's so much in my subconscious that can't talk to me because I don't remember them. And I want to hear it. I want to find... I'm sorry. I want to find myself again. I want to... I do think that I've buried myself under marijuana use, and I've used it as a band-aid to not face the pain that I went through.
[2:12:18] And your parents prefer you drugged, so you don't judge them.
[2:12:22] Because I'm way more compliant.
[2:12:24] Yeah, for sure.
[2:12:27] That's not a That makes me so sad.
[2:12:31] Well, and angry. I mean, because, you know, it's not like you're not participating at this age, right? It's one thing if you're 14 or 15 or 20 or whatever. But okay, so let's do some math here, right? Do you want to have kids?
[2:12:42] I do.
[2:12:43] Okay. You're 30, right?
[2:12:46] I'm 25.
[2:12:47] Sorry, 25, 25. My apologies. I'm sorry, I got that math completely wrong. So let's backtrack some of that math out and let's not pretend that I can count with my shoes on. Okay. Okay. So you're 25 years old. So how long do you think it's going to take you to emotionally recover from your six-year relationship with your ex?
[2:13:06] Probably like two years.
[2:13:08] Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, okay, something like that. So you might be emotionally available potentially at 27, right?
[2:13:19] Yeah.
[2:13:20] Okay. Now, how long is it going to take for you to get off the drugs? And please talk to an expert and please talk to your doctor and please talk to, you know, I'm just a podcast guy, right? So like whatever you're going to do, make sure you take it up with a trained professional rather than just some guy ranting in his house, right? So just talk to a doctor, talk to addiction counselors, specialists, whatever you need to do. But if you want to get off the drugs, how long do you think that will take to get off and stay off and feel like you can have it in the past?
[2:13:54] Now. I could start now.
[2:13:56] Okay, but how long would it take?
[2:13:57] It would take me... The first three days are the most uncomfortable. That's where I'm having cravings and it's just behavior. It's just repetition. So I have to break those things that I'm used to doing. But after those three days, I've done it before. I replace... It's so silly, but I replace it with lemon water. And it works a lot because squeezing the lemon on the little jigger is kind of like using my grinder. And then it's silly, but.
[2:14:30] No, no, things I didn't know. Okay.
[2:14:32] And then putting and then like drinking the lemon water like through a straw kind of makes me feel like that like hand to mouth action thing. And then just the like zingy taste of something different.
[2:14:45] Yeah a lot of people don't realize just how much addiction is based upon the rituals as well as the actual thing right yeah.
[2:14:51] Oh my gosh yes and then of course there are triggers that come along and you know like you hit you hit a bump and you're like oh man did the impulse comes oh i just want to smoke like that would make me feel better instantly but that that's not the hard part for me i think the hard part for me is the habitual just i do it so often every day it's just like almost an impulse.
[2:15:13] Or like.
[2:15:13] Yeah just a default um once i break out of the default it's really not i don't miss it i really don't.
[2:15:21] Yeah you have to break all the associations right like a friend of mine uh used to write when he was smoking and in order to change that he actually went i think he went to a coffee shop and wrote there where you couldn't smoke just to so that he wouldn't continue to so and then he broke the association of smoking and writing and so there's there's things that you can do for those those kinds of things but yeah once you want to break the habits and so on right but then of course i assume that the emotions that the drugs are covering up will now that's gonna.
[2:15:48] Take a long yeah that's that's gonna take a lot to unpack.
[2:15:51] Well yeah maybe i mean but generally the most difficult thing with the emotions is the moral side of things, And if you have moral clarity, which is kind of what I'm trying to be providing in the last sort of quarter of this conversation, if you have the moral clarity, the emotions are a lot easier to deal with because the emotions aren't these big, complicated, confusing things. It's like, oh, okay, so I would imagine that what you've been drugging is anger towards your parents, to a large degree. And so that anger is going to come up, but rather than this weird, dangerous, demonic, incoherent force, it's like, oh, yeah, well, I was abused, so I'm angry. right so it doesn't mean the emotions just immediately vanish but it means that it's not like this weird chaotic anger that you oh my gosh am i like my dad and you know like like it's not it's not this big blob that you have to kind of parse out it's like oh okay you know it's like if if you have a bruise and you don't know where it came from that's kind of alarming right but if you're like oh yeah i remember walked into the kitchen cabin kitchen counter or something then you're like okay i know what the bruise is right.
[2:16:52] I know where it came from right.
[2:16:54] So the moral side of things makes i think recovery from childhood trauma so much easier okay like i was battling a kind of evil i was helpless i had adaptation strategies to survive evil called compliance and appeasement which everyone does all children do who make it the children who don't end up in jail are dead so good for you right and so so you say okay well i i was kidnapped right in a sense right as a kid so i was uh i was uh controlled by evildoers and i had to conform and comply in order to survive and maybe that went on a little bit too long but that's you know when you stop, covering things up or you you stop the drugs or whatever then these feelings are going to come up but they won't be completely baffling incomprehensible and like and that that's what's going to make you drive back dive back to the drugs in my view it's not because the feelings come up it's because it's like i don't know what's happening to me it's scary so i need the drug again as opposed to well look i i was raised in an evil situation by very corrupt people who did me a great harm against my will when I had no power to manage or control it. So these feelings are a natural response to, to the evils i suffered and therefore you don't need the drugs because although the feelings can be uncomfortable and difficult they're not incomprehensible and baffling if that makes sense it.
[2:18:12] Does make sense you're saying that once i unpack everything and i'm able to look at it with more clarity then it won't be as anxiety provoking it won't be as emotional like it has been in the past and has driven me to smoke or or do.
[2:18:27] Other things it's not again it's not the emotions that or bad it's the incomprehensibility of the emotions it's.
[2:18:33] The not being able to understand them.
[2:18:34] Like if i'm walking in the woods at night and i think i hear something walking behind me i don't sit there and say i have baffling anxiety yeah i'm like oh i think there's something walking behind me right it's.
[2:18:46] A good thing that you have that anxiety it should.
[2:18:48] Be yeah that's healthy that's healthy you don't want to live without that anxiety right absolutely right i mean if if you wake up in the middle of the night with night terrors for no reason that's kind of baffling and frightening right but if you wake up in the middle of the night and uh you know you you realize you know something fell up rolled off your cabinet and shattered on the ground and that's why you woke up thinking there was something in the room then your fear is still there but it's not like baffling and incomprehensible like existential like i'm afraid of nothing kind of thing right absolutely.
[2:19:18] You you have at least a sense of what it could be.
[2:19:21] Right so i think that emotional healing is vastly accelerated with moral clarity that's sort of the sorry that's the short version of the long speech if that makes sense it does so if you want to have kids then you got to work backwards from that okay so uh if if the drugs are not serving you they're not having kids with a quality man okay then you got to work to get off the drugs and if being around your parents is going to drive away a quality man because a quality man isn't going to date you he's going to date your extended family because he's going to realize how important your extended family is in the raising of his children.
[2:19:59] Yeah.
[2:20:00] Right? So he's going to look at your parents and he's going to say, do I want to spend the next 40 years with them? Do I want to give them power over my children? Do I want them part of my family? Do I want to fight with them for influence over my wife? I'm so sorry. Go ahead.
[2:20:19] No, no, I was agreeing with you.
[2:20:20] Oh, sorry. I thought you were. Okay. So a quality man is going to look at you and the people around you. This includes your friends. We haven't talked much about them other than it sounds like they've given you some great support. So that's good. But he's going to say, these are the people who are going to come over on birthdays. These are the people who are going to come over. these are the people who might be taking care of my kids and he's going to look at them with a cold and calculating eye as to whether they will be good for his children to be around.
[2:20:49] And that's what I would want for my partner I would want him to create a space that's safe for children.
[2:20:56] He will say sorry to interrupt he will say which of your friends moved heaven and earth to get you away from your ex-husband, yeah And if the answer is, well, they said a couple of things here and there, he'd be like, well, I'm sorry. Not good for me. Because the more he cares about you, the more he's going to dislike anyone who harmed you or through indifference allowed harm to accrue. Like you can't love someone and also love the people who did them the most harm. So he can't love you and your unrepentant, abusive parents. I mean, your mother a little bit, but right. So you understand in the same way that you can't love your precious daughter, and also love the babysitter who abuses her. Love means disliking the people who harm those you love. So he can't like your parents if they're the ones, and I think it's fair to say, that your parents did you the most harm of any two individuals on this planet, and are you going to sit there to your victor, your potential husband-to-be, and say, you have to love me and also the people who did me the greatest harm? Thank you. That won't work. He's like, there's only one of me here. I can't do both. If that makes sense.
[2:22:19] It does. It does make sense. I wouldn't want him to make himself uncomfortable or be in a position where our children are going to be uncomfortable.
[2:22:27] No, he won't. He won't. He just won't do it. He just won't date you. Like, you keep thinking, like, he's just going to go along and it's on you. No, he will choose not to date you. and he will choose to not to date you not because he thinks you're a terrible person he can do that with great sympathy but he can say she's not in a place, like the men that most women want have their choice and you're in competition, with all the women who don't have abusive people in their lives, that's fair it's worse than being a single mom it is.
[2:23:08] Yeah, it's definitely, it's definitely already been a hurdle clearly.
[2:23:18] Well i mean you had a stoner boyfriend in junior high and high school who got you on drugs, we haven't talked about other relationships but then at the age of 19 you met the guy who's 10 years older and that's been a disaster for 6 years right absolutely Right. So you can't get quality guys because quality guys see the mess that surrounds you, which is not your fault when you were a kid, right? Nobody chooses the family they're born into. Unfortunately, you rolled snake eyes in the old family dice, right? I'm really sorry for that. But he's looking at you, and there's no good guys in this entire circle. like in your entire environment no it's like same planet different worlds the good people the quality people the moral people don't tend to at all to be in this kind of environment, no so when was the last time when was the last time you met a guy who you would consider not just pretty or handsome or whatever of course you know that right but when was the last time you met a guy who was like, this is a really, really good guy.
[2:24:33] Um, just, like, in work.
[2:24:36] Anywhere.
[2:24:38] Uh, yeah, at work, I suppose, would be the last person. And not even because I really know them that well.
[2:24:48] Okay. Now, what about in your social circle?
[2:24:52] I don't have a social circle.
[2:24:55] You told me you had friends. Don't backtrack on me now, sister. Don't do it.
[2:25:00] Well, okay. I have, um... i have acquaintances from work but i don't have any like i don't have any girlfriends i don't i don't i don't have any friends.
[2:25:13] Okay well that's a good that's a that's a big plus because it means there aren't people that you have to ditch in order to get to a better place no.
[2:25:20] There's not it's just me right it's just me and my stupid fucking parents.
[2:25:24] Right right so that's a plus so you know with regards to what to do as you know i i don't tell people what to do um i generally don't know you know i mean if you said i want to go uh kick a kitten i'd say don't do that right but as far as what to do i think i think that basically the thing is i mean hopefully keep reading real-time relationships and yeah work on um you know getting off the drugs and and urine therapy which is great i i think that's wonderful i like my.
[2:25:54] Therapist a lot i'm gonna keep working especially with i don't know how much experience she has with addiction but i'm sure she has some i mean.
[2:26:03] Well she may be referring you to someone who's um more specialized yeah yeah yeah uh now with regards to uh i mean i'm a big one for having honest and open conversation with with parents however you say that your parents are still your father is your mother still doing drugs or is just your father just my father okay so i don't you know i don't think that there's much point having conversations with people who are on drugs. I mean, I think, as far as I understand it, if you show up drunk to a therapy session, the therapist will say, go home. If you show up stoned, you say, well, we can't do therapy if you're stoned, right? So you can't have meaningful conversations with people who are on drugs.
[2:26:40] Yeah.
[2:26:42] Now, your mother is still with your father, right? So she's still giving him the greatest gift of physical, emotional, and sexual intimacy. So she's clearly not that bothered by anything he's done.
[2:26:54] No, she's not. Right.
[2:26:56] She also hasn't said, you know, our daughter is unhappy. She had a conversation. She's unhappy about the way she was raised. You really should go and have a conversation with your daughter. She wouldn't. She hasn't said that, we assume, to your husband, to her husband, right?
[2:27:08] No, no.
[2:27:10] So, I think just the moral clarity and the denormalization is what is most essential.
[2:27:18] Yes, sir.
[2:27:19] And I think the moral clarity and the denormalization of this truly, truly messed up childhood that you had, which has nothing to do with you, nothing, you just had to survive.
[2:27:27] Yes, sir.
[2:27:28] You just had to find a way to survive. And personally, I think you did a pretty good job.
[2:27:32] Thank you.
[2:27:32] I think you did a pretty good job. I mean, there's stuff to clean up, but so did I. I still had that in my 30s.
[2:27:40] now that's not going to be case for you i kind of had to discover a lot of the stuff on my own so there wasn't that kind of accelerationism that's going on i think good philosophy around but yeah, yeah work your way backwards you want a quality guy and a quality guy like think of opposing magnets right quality people and what i call trash planet right which is just where people are manipulative and act out and and do drugs and and yell and bully and and then are all play all nice to people in authority. Just, you know, it's just Trash Planet. Good people in Trash Planet, there's no overlapping diagrams. There's no Venn diagram where those two overlap.
[2:28:17] Yeah. Trash Planet.
[2:28:21] And you were born there, it sounds like, and that's not your fault. You can't own that like that was some mistake you made. There wasn't like some airship where you could have dropped into a good family. You said, no, no, no, I want the trashy one.
[2:28:33] Yeah.
[2:28:34] It's just luck of the draw, man. It's just luck of the universe, so to speak, right? and you rolled snake eyes, I rolled snake eyes or snake eyes who rolled for us or whatever and then we just have to find a way to get to a better or higher place.
[2:28:48] That's what I desire. I really am. That's my biggest fear is giving my child the childhood that I experienced. And until I unpack my childhood, that's what I'm headed towards.
[2:29:05] Just think about your childhood being inflicted on a child you love, because you should be the child that you love. And that's a way to kick in your immune system to get rid of sentimentality, because sentimentality will keep you trapped in a bad place sentimentality is basically when we get misty-eyed over evildoers and call them good or mistaken or out of control or you know in the grip of their own childhoods like that mysticism oh sorry sentimentality is when we take free will away from evildoers and that means that we we have no immune system to to kick back against their corruptions so that's what i most want for you if that makes sense.
[2:29:41] It does make sense.
[2:29:42] All All right, will you keep me posted about how things are going?
[2:29:46] Hi, Rostefan.
[2:29:47] Do you want to tell me everyone's name now at the end? No, I'm just kidding. I'm kidding. I'm just kidding.
[2:29:51] I'm sorry about that.
[2:29:52] No, that's fine. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it.
[2:29:54] I made a lot of work for you.
[2:29:55] I really do appreciate your time today. I really hope you will keep me posted. I wish, of course, you and your ex the best. Again, I know it's a brutal story. It doesn't sound like it was the right thing for you guys to be together, but I'm sure much, much better things are to come, and I really do appreciate your time today.
[2:30:11] Thank you. I appreciate you, and I hope the same for him. I hope we both can find a pathway to happiness and health and can heal from our painful childhoods.
[2:30:21] Excellent. All right. Well, keep me posted. Thanks for your time today.
[2:30:24] Yes, Stefan. Thank you so much. Have a good night. Bye.
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