0:00 - Introduction
1:10 - Finding Purpose and Identity
2:47 - Family and Work Background
4:09 - Focusing on Decision-Making
4:47 - Career Advice or Philosophy?
7:06 - The Cost-Benefit Analysis Dilemma
7:23 - Military Environment for Kids
8:33 - Exploring Socialization and Relationships
11:46 - Delving into Depression
13:39 - Childhood Discipline and Education
19:21 - Socializing Challenges
19:51 - Social Activities and Co-ops
21:33 - Family Dynamics and Education
23:44 - Father's Role in Discipline
26:07 - Career Aspirations Before Military
26:33 - Influence of Family and Education
27:58 - Struggles in the Military
30:34 - Military and Faith Integration
32:52 - Just War Theory Applications
35:23 - Iraq and Just War Theory
41:55 - Moral Integrity and Orders
42:30 - Leadership Disagreements
47:56 - Conscience and Military Duty
52:29 - Conscience and Military Alignment
58:40 - Brother's Relationship Concerns
1:05:54 - Building Relationships with Children
In this podcast episode, we delve into a deep and introspective conversation with a caller who is contemplating major life changes, particularly the decision to leave the military for the betterment of his family. The caller shares personal experiences, discussing the challenges of raising children without much familial support and grappling with the weight of his father's military legacy on his own path. Opening up about feelings of being adrift, the caller expresses concerns about finding purpose and ensuring his children have a nurturing environment to grow up in.
As the conversation progresses, the caller bravely reveals struggles with his emotional well-being, touching on bouts of depression and intrusive thoughts that have plagued him. He reflects on his upbringing in a religious homeschooling environment designed to shield him from secular influences, highlighting the impact of limited social interactions compared to his wife's more varied social experiences. The discussion brings to light the caller's quest for balance between career choices and family well-being, prompting a philosophical exploration into the potential benefits and drawbacks of military life for his children.
The caller shares insights into his struggles with mental health, recounting experiences of managing intrusive thoughts and navigating self-harm ideations. Reflecting on the influence of his upbringing and social connections, internal conflicts emerge surrounding career decisions and shaping his family's future. Through the guidance and insights offered during the discussion, the caller confronts past influences, social challenges, and the profound implications of his military service on his children's upbringing.
The conversation delves deeper into the caller's early experiences in homeschooling and limited participation in group activities, shedding light on childhood dynamics, disciplinary approaches, and educational choices that have shaped his worldview. Moving forward, the caller opens up about the tumultuous impact of joining the military, including thoughts of suicide triggered during training and a contemplation of the ethical considerations tied to military actions and just war theory.
As the dialogue progresses, the guest wrestles with the moral and ethical complexities of military service, examining the interplay between personal beliefs and institutional duties within the military framework. Struggling with the alignment of individual values with military engagements, the caller engages in a candid exploration of inner conflicts, ethical dilemmas, and the challenging process of reconciling personal ethics with professional responsibilities.
The conversation takes a thought-provoking turn towards discussions on moral standards in military operations and the potential moral dilemmas arising from actions that deviate from just war theory. Reflecting on the guest's struggles with self-harm and suicidal ideations, the dialogue explores the roots of current challenges in past experiences, emphasizing the weight of ethical decisions within the military context and their impact on one's conscience.
Transitioning to the guest's family dynamics, parenting struggles, and relational challenges, the conversation navigates the delicate balance of maintaining moral authority, fostering meaningful connections, and addressing familial complexities. The importance of open communication, thoughtful decision-making, and genuine efforts to nurture familial relationships amidst divorces and new beginnings is underscored as pivotal for a harmonious family dynamic.
In wrapping up the rich and reflective conversation, the guest is encouraged to prioritize open dialogue and thoughtful introspection as he navigates the intricacies of family dynamics and moral quandaries. The host extends well-wishes and words of encouragement, having facilitated a dialogue that fostered introspection, personal growth, and constructive reflections on the complexities of balancing personal beliefs with professional duties in the context of military service.
[0:00] And I'm all ears, brother. How can I best help? Yeah, so would it be okay if I kind of read out what I had sent in? Yeah, that's great. Okay. As I said, I had sent in a call request a bit ago about some changes that were coming up in the near future for my family and I, but it seems like they keep compounding. For example, I've been in the military for almost five years. My wife and I have been raising our children without much familial assistance, and we'd like to move closer, maybe separate from the military, but i feel like there are a lot of forces that kind of inclined me to stay but i also know that uh that's what my father did and while i did enjoy my childhood i'm not sure it's what i want for my kids i just need to be struggling to hold together a lot of areas of my life and i think i could use some advice on moving forward there's also some familial issues that are arising with my brother um yeah so one thing else that i wanted to add is um i've mentioned this my wife and she also said that i had been having like off and on depression for probably like the last year or so, and she said that I probably should mention that so I just wanted to bring it up real quick okay, is there more that you wanted to add? yeah.
[1:11] I think I think there's a lot of issues that I'm maybe finding with purpose maybe I almost feel, a little bit lost at the moment but I feel like I want to be a really good dad and focus on, like raising my kids and But I also want to make sure that like they're able to like know their grandparents is that was something that I didn't really have, Growing up and I had a lot of good experience from like my my dad's time being in the military He was his career military and I think I enjoyed my time, Like being in that environment a little bit, but I also feel like it's kind of all that I know and so I feel like There's a party that really wants to get out of it, But it feels very weird and different, going out of that environment like it feels very foreign um and i've worked a couple jobs uh before joining the military but like most of them were either state jobs or maybe volunteering for something like you know the red cross or something like that so usually government related and i did i worked um when privacy is a job and i just i felt kind of out of depth with some things and uh i almost wonder if like growing up in the military and then you know spending most of my life in the most areas kind of made it hard for me to even.
[2:32] Separate from i don't know like it sounds weird but separate from like the government almost like i noticed that too with like my other family like my brother he uh he's an auto mechanic but he also works for the state uh in the state that he lives in and then um my dad now he works for a county.
[2:48] Um so he also doesn't work and like private industry and then uh my sister works for a city and then uh my other sister she just got a degree in education so she could very well you know end up teaching in a public school so and i was just trying to notice you know you're really hanging off the old taxpayer there yeah yeah and it seems weird because like my uh my grandpa he actually he's he served in the military too for only like four years and then he uh got out and he got a job working as a uh as an engineer a non-degraded engineer for a, for a company and then he's basically just you know he's run businesses since then like he worked as an electrician for a while and then opened up multiple businesses and so we had a lot of exposure with that uh like my dad did growing up um but he always said like he felt if he kind of like going into people's houses and like kind of being exposed to people and uh i don't know but i wonder if like part of it is like i just feel very lonely uh like we were homeschooled and i grew up in like a very uh socially conservative household i don't remember like having a lot of of friends in my and what my childhood I really want to fix that for my kids too and I wonder if maybe in the military and like moving around a lot kind of cost some of that issue as well like just not being able to make established friendships and.
[4:06] Okay, so we're obviously just kind of jumping all over the place here.
[4:10] So what are the major one or two things that you'd like to focus on in the convo tonight? Yeah. I guess I'd like to focus on how do I know that I'm ready to leave? Every time that I think about it, I get a lot of anxiety about potentially leaving. And I kind of worked up to a position where I'm making about the same in the military as I could probably make outside of the military doing the same job, it's basically like as an aircraft mechanic.
[4:47] I just feel like I'm in a very privileged position because I can like support my family, my wife doesn't have to work and I just feel a lot of apprehension to give that up, to go do something else And even though it might be better for my kids, I'm kind of worried. Okay, so sorry. Are you calling for career advice or philosophy? I'm a little lost. Sorry. I guess like a little both. I feel very lost, I guess, in my career. I don't feel like I'm fully fulfilled where I'm at. But at the same time, I don't know if staying in the military and being involved with... With the military, I don't hesitate to use the word good. But I don't know if it's beneficial for me or my family. Sorry, you don't know if being in the military is beneficial to you or your family? Yes. Okay, what am I supposed to make of that? I don't know. How am I supposed to tell you whether it's beneficial to you or your family? I mean, there's a moral question for sure. Sure, but if it's just benefits, if it's just like, well, do I make more money or have more job security or a better pension? I mean, that's just math, right? That's not philosophy.
[6:13] Is there a philosophical element to it, though? No, but if you're talking about what's beneficial to you and your family, that's not philosophy. That's just math, right? Like, you could get a job as a concentration camp guard under communism, and you could say, well, is it beneficial to my family in terms of income and job stability? And, well, that's just math, right? Right. Is your question. Are there moral compromises in being involved in the military that I don't want to make? That's a different question. But if you're just going to talk about what's beneficial to your family, you don't need me. You could just do a spreadsheet. Right. I'm not being critical. I'm just telling you that this is not this. That's just numbers. Right. You'd say, OK, well, what can I get in the private sector? Well, it's 10 percent less. Therefore, this is materially better for my family. or maybe there's less job security or something like that, right?
[7:06] So if it's just cost-benefit analysis, that's not philosophy, right?
[7:12] So I just want to make sure I'm providing value in our conversation. And if your question is, is there a material advantage to me being in the military?
[7:23] That's not a philosophical question. That's maybe a question for an accountant or a spreadsheet, sheet but it's not a philosophical question if that makes sense okay uh i guess maybe more of a philosophical question then is is it good for my kids to be in this kind of environment seeing how it turned out for my siblings and i and like kind of where we are in life like all of a sudden being involved sorry what kind of and i would say is it good for my kids to be in In this kind of environment, I don't know what that is referring to. Do you mean on a military base? Being in the military family. So I guess most of your friends, usually your parents, their parents are in the military. That was how it was for me growing up. Like almost all my friends, their friends were in the military. I'd say most of us probably wanted to join when we got older or had inclinations in that way. Yeah. Yeah. So are you asking me, is it good for your kids to be around military families?
[8:25] I guess. I suppose maybe there's. I'm not being skeptical. I just want to make sure I understand what you're asking.
[8:34] Oh, of course. Yeah, I guess there's that aspect of it. But then also a little bit of the inconsistency with long-term friends and long-term relationships. Relationships they get like we really make an effort to try to visit family um like at least once a year no but so but this all cost benefit analysis right so i mean are there benefits to being around families i suppose yeah but does does it mean then that you have to move around a lot and that's going to break those relationships well yeah right and if it's not you who's moving then it's somebody else who's moving right so i'm still trying to figure out and i'm you know but just be patient as i sort of try to get up to speed with your life i'm still trying to figure out.
[9:25] What is not a cost-benefit analysis right so if you were to call me up and you were to say stef i don't know whether to save money or to go on a really enjoyable vacation right I don't know whether to buy a house or rent and invest in crypto instead. I couldn't answer those questions for you, right? Should I move to the country or stay in the city? I can't answer those because those are all cost-benefit analyses, right?
[10:01] So, if you're calling me up for a cost-benefit analysis, I can't do that because I'm not you, and for me to get up to speed on all the variables would take forever, right? I don't know what it's like to be around military families. I don't know what it's like to live on a military base. I don't know what it's like to be moved around by the military. I mean, I moved around a lot as a kid, but so you would have to bring me up so much to speed on all of the variables that it just would be crazy inefficient, if that makes sense.
[10:35] Okay. It's like calling someone up and saying, you know, should I use COBOL or Visual Basic for my programming, my choice of programming languages? Languages and it's like well if the person doesn't really know programming then by the time you bring them all up to speed it's crazy inefficient right now i'm good with moral stuff right i'm i'm definitely there for self-knowledge stuff and and history like personal history maybe the way it's interfering with your happiness in the present but i can't do cost-benefit analysis if that makes sense, it does um, now if you have questions about why you might have been depressed, you know maybe we could look into that or whatever else, yeah of help or if you feel like why am I so scared to make these decisions we could look into that but I can't tell you what decisions to make if that makes sense I understand, Yeah, I'd actually appreciate that if we could go into that a little bit. Whatever works best for you, my friend. I'm here to help. Okay.
[11:47] Yeah. If we could touch on the depression one first, I'd appreciate that. Okay.
[11:54] How would you like me to go about it? Would you like me to kind of give you a background? No, tell me about the depression first, because that word means a lot of different things to a lot of different people, right? Right. So for a while, especially last year was very bad.
[12:11] But sometimes I'd just be at work doing various jobs and just feel an incredible weight and heaviness on me. And I'd have a lot of intrusive thoughts, usually about self-harm. And while I'd never act on them, it bothered me a lot except I only had those one other time in my life and that was actually when I first joined the military, and then they went away for a while and then last year they started coming back again while I was at work and I don't Was there anything that you could think of that would cause that from some sort of external source that might trigger that, so to speak? Right. I think part of it last year was a really rough year for our wife and I just with a bunch of stuff that happened uh like my grandmother passed away and um we were in like a lot of financial difficulties.
[13:02] And well I think that might have caused some of it I don't know if that was that was the chief reason no that's no that's not it I mean everybody's grandparents die right right I mean that that's the I mean they get old they die right that that doesn't lead to self-harm and you know lots of people have had financial difficulties over the course of their lives I know I have right and that doesn't lead to self-harm necessarily so yeah so other external wise i can't really think of anything i was on night shift for a long time so sometimes like i would have periods where i didn't get very much sleep so that could be part of it too i noticed like on those days obviously like you.
[13:40] Shouldn't be a lot more tired and like i don't know sometimes you get stressed out a lot more easily and i would kind of snap at people at work sometimes times um if they were kind of bothering me too much and like maybe they weren't doing the job right i'm not really like a yelling person but sometimes if they made uh they did something really dumb or dangerous yeah i might kind of make a harsh comment and stuff uh i think a lot of that was probably like sleep related so i'm not normally like that um and were you on night shift because that's why you were assigned or yeah where i was assigned yeah and so you don't have any choice about that right yeah so what what what prepared you for this kind of regimented existence where other people are kind of telling you what to do all the time when you were a kid i mean there must have been something if you it's hard to think that you go from like really really self-directed to taking orders for half a decade right.
[14:38] So what was your childhood like in terms of discipline and choice? Yeah. Growing up, I was homeschooled mostly by my mom. She was also a prior military, but she was only in for like five years. That's how my parents met. And I don't know. I would say that we had a relatively regimented school schedule, but I was usually done by like maybe 2 p.m. at the latest. Sometimes I might do a little bit later. is uh okay but sort of how how did it work as a whole your your homeschooling i mean there's lots of different schools have thought about this so did your mother like sit you down at nine o'clock in the morning or 8 30 in the morning and and put you through the lessons or or how did that go, yeah so she basically looked at the curriculum that we had for each of our grade uh uh each of our grades and then she'd go through and she'd say how much we had to get done over a trade over a day and so then we just do that day until it's completed and then um you know the spreadsheet would say like we had to do this much work you know tomorrow and then we just do it that way until we're done with the curriculum so you just did the curriculum oh yeah the fuck is the point of homeschooling then uh i guess my parents were my parents are very religious and um i think the goal for them they said was basically to keep us out of um the public schools because they seem to be, they seemed at the time to be leaning a lot more secular, and they were worried about that, their effect on us.
[16:07] Oh, okay, so it wasn't to teach independent critical thinking or anything like that, it was to keep you away from the secular humanists, right? Yeah. Okay, and I know, I'm not trying to be sarcastic or anything, I just want to really understand where they were coming from, right? Absolutely, I believe that to be accurate. and did they use a curriculum that was developed for that particular purpose or how did that work, oh yeah it was um the curriculum was i think it was called celebrated christian education by ece and yeah it's very explicitly um uh christian in its delivery and so like it i mean i feel like it was pretty decent teaching um you know the basic concepts and of uh that you need to know like in order to graduate and pass you know state tests that might be required like we always did like at least relatively well uh unlike the state test like we never like fell behind at least what was required um in the states that require like stick testing if you're homeschooled so i know my brother did really well like he was always scoring like you know college plus or whatever um pretty much every time he was taking tests like when he was in high school so.
[17:19] Okay and how was your social life dealt with that's always the big question with homeschooling right how how was your social life dealt with um not i would say like not very good i used to think it was decent until i met my wife who was also homeschooled but she has a great social life and uh that was not really present with me growing up like so what was done for your social life, uh basically just maybe church on the weekends and if we knew friends in the neighborhood like when they got off school we'd go play and uh that was pretty much it well hang on so going to play with kids in the neighborhood it's like i mean isn't that most of your social life even when you i guess there's a little bit at school but it's mostly after school isn't it, yeah um yeah so like that probably was a lot of our social life like we wouldn't play with them like okay like once we finished but whenever they got off school we well no nobody nobody Nobody plays all day. The kids in school, they don't play all day. I mean, we kids who were in school are sitting in classes getting our brains rotted. So I'm trying to understand what you mean. No kids play all day. Right.
[18:32] I don't know. We just usually hang out. I lived in Florida for a while, and we lived by the beach. And so sometimes we'd just ride our bikes over to the beach and then just walk around in the woods by there. Yeah, but I mean, you could go and play with any of the other kids in the neighborhood, right? Probably not any other kids, but probably most of them. Most of them? Okay, that's fine. Let's not get hung up on inconsequential details, like whether it was 90% or 100%, right? So did you have trouble socializing? I mean, what was missing relative to what happened with your wife? I don't know what was missing. Yes, let's go back. Hang on. I don't want to get off on a communication bad foot here. So my understanding was, I said, how was your socializing handled?
[19:21] And you said it wasn't handled very well. I thought it was good. But then when I compare it to what my wife went through, and she was also homeschooled, I realized there were problems or something like that, right? Do you remember saying that? I do remember that, yeah. Okay. So then when I say what was missing, you say it was all pretty good. I'm like, then I'm quite confused. I don't want to waste time. Like if it's not an issue, then it's not an issue, right? But you brought it up as an issue, so I'm trying to understand it as an issue. And if you then tell me it's not an issue, I don't know what we're talking about.
[19:52] I understand. Sorry. That's fine. Yeah, so my wife is usually involved with a lot more co-ops, and they would do a lot more group activities. And it just seemed like there's a lot more kid-focused when it comes to teaching. There's usually a lot more. Oh, so do you mean during the day? Yeah. Okay, I understand. So she was homeschooled in a collective kind of homeschooling group, right? Yeah, I would say, yeah, semi-collective. Okay, so she socialized during the day, and you didn't because you were just with you and your brother and your mom, right? Mm-hmm. Okay, and do you know why your mother didn't get you involved in any homeschooling groups? I don't know explicitly, but I think it might have to do with my mom being a little bit of a disagreeable person. We went to one, I can remember when I was maybe I think it might have been seven. We went to one for a little bit and then we just never went back. And it seemed like my brothers, sisters, and I, we did fine in that group, but I don't know if my mom didn't like it or.
[21:11] Maybe she got rubbed the wrong way by some people. Okay that's all theory though right you don't have any evidence for that okay so just theorizing okay and I'm not saying that's bad I just like we could do that till the cows come home and not come up with anything concrete right okay all right.
[21:29] So, how old is your brother?
[21:34] He's 28. No, but older than you or like younger? A few years older than me, yes. A few years older than you, yeah, okay. Got it. Okay, so you didn't get much playing during the day, except maybe with your brother, but after school you could go and play until what, the streetlights come on, that kind of stuff? I don't remember it ever being explicitly said, but usually we'd only play for a couple hours and then come back. Usually i imagine i had to do something with dinner i don't remember ever being explicitly told like you have to be back by this time but okay so you so you got a fair amount of playing in right i think so yeah okay and with regards to homeschooling did you have any.
[22:14] Uh choice about things in other words you say i prefer science and not math and you'd focus on that or did you pretty much follow the curriculum uh pretty much follow the curriculum until i got into high school and then um there was i had the opportunity to take some advanced courses and uh in history and i asked if i could do that and they said uh they said yes and um i think there's one other course that they asked if i wanted to take or this i think it was like a computer course and i thought it was going to be like programming or something and ended up just being about like computer applications and just like very basic stuff and it was incredibly boring but um yeah Yeah. So once I got into like high school, I would say so. Okay. Now what about sports?
[23:00] We played, let's see, we, I didn't play any sports except for, let's see, take that back. I did play basketball and baseball when I was in grade school for, I guess like one semester. And then after that, there wasn't anything in grade school. And then when I was in, I think junior high, I played flag football. At the youth center on the base that we were staying at. And then other than that, nothing. And that was only for a semester as well. And did you want to play more sports, or was that okay with you?
[23:35] I don't really remember what I thought about it at the time. I enjoyed doing it. Looking back, I wish that I would have done more. But I don't know if that would have been consistent with my feelings at the time.
[23:44] Okay. And your father, you said your mother was mostly doing the homeschooling. What was the story with your father? It He usually wouldn't help out with the homework unless there was something pretty difficult that my mom couldn't figure out. He was slightly better at math, I would say, than my mom. But he didn't really help us out at the time with the schoolwork.
[24:10] It was mostly my mom's thing. Part of that was because of the shifts that he was on. He was usually on either swings or nights. And so he was just done a lot usually in the evening or asleep during the day. And, you know, it's just crazy working hours. Okay. Now, how were you disciplined as a child?
[24:31] I would say typically spanked if it was severe enough. My mom would also yell a lot. But so she wouldn't necessarily like just all right spank us with stuff but i do remember getting i remember getting spanked like maybe five or six times and i remember telling that my mom and she said that it was a lot more but um that's all that i remember but he was spanked a lot more that's what she told me yeah why would you not agree with us but what was that why would you not agree with her is that i only remember six times okay and who would spank you uh usually my mom but if she got too angry she would wait till my dad came home and then he would give us a spank, and how was the spanking administered um they had this uh one plastic uh they called it like the rod it's just the one piece of plastic and then uh they would just think it's on our on our butts like they wouldn't like pull our pants down or anything like that but you know okay and what about uh verbal discipline were you yelled at or was there any name calling or anything like that, Occasionally named Colleen but usually yelled at I do remember like a couple times my mom told me some names and I actually brought it up to her and she apologized but usually What sort of names did she call you? She called me stupid one time.
[25:58] Okay. And so nothing, I mean, nothing too crazy, right? I mean, I've obviously heard quite the gamut as far as these things go, right? Mm-hmm.
[26:08] All right. Okay. And did you think about anything other than the military before you joined? I mean, seriously, think about anything other than the military. I really wanted to I really wanted to be a historian for a while and then I kind of wanted to go into electrical engineering, for a little bit as well.
[26:33] But kind of also some of that was in the context of the military so when I was in high school I was kind of thinking okay I'll join the military and then I'll do like my four years get the GI benefits and then go to school, but then when I got old enough to join I kind of chickened out I guess might be the best word for it and um I decided not to and uh I was like maybe I'll just passively go to college and just kind of see what happens, like I kind of wanted to do history but at that time I was kind of you know finally getting like my first couple jobs I realized okay if I get a history degree I can't really do anything with that and I don't want to end up being flipping burgers like when I'm 22 so I decided to go for for business but kind of found school to be slightly boring like a lot of the introductory classes um usually the business classes i thought were interesting uh and then like people also kind of i talked to some people when i was trying to apply for different jobs and they usually said that they thought business degrees were slightly worthless and that maybe i should pursue something more specialized so that's when i kind of started thinking about engineering but i didn't actively pursue that um until more recently okay got it and then when you joined the military you felt depressed you said yeah um so so that word basically is like once you join you go to basic training and then you go to a uh in the air force they call it tech school.
[27:59] Which is basically you learn your job um before you go to your initial duty station um and i remember like when i was in tech school i'd already graduated and i was just i was stuck up there because my uh my wife was pregnant with our first son and she was you know about to give birth and so they basically said you can stay here so we don't have to move um while your wife's you know almost nine months pregnant and i just remember by just doing daily tasks you know like cleaning and stuff that's basically just all they had us doing and just walking around and like, having thoughts of suicide and like just imagine myself sometimes i'd imagine myself just like cutting myself with a knife. And sorry, what age were you at this point? I was 22. 22. And you hadn't had thoughts like this before. Is that right? No. And where do you think they came from?
[28:55] I think a lot of it was worried about choice. I didn't get the job that I wanted in the military. And I also didn't get the base that I wanted to go to or the location. And I wonder if part of it might have just been that I was maybe a little dissatisfied. Okay. Do you really think that a little dissatisfied is thinking of killing yourself? That seems that's not quite the right descriptor, is it? A little dissatisfied leads to suicide that's true or suicidality right I do remember being incredibly bored as well I don't know if that would, cause that but I don't think so otherwise you'd have kids in public schools throwing themselves out of windows on a regular basis right so.
[29:53] So where would it come from thoughts of cutting yourself right, that's usually I had and then they I guess they also continued until I got to my first base um, and then I had them when I got here for maybe a couple months longer and then they kind of went away, mhm Yeah, and then just last year they started coming back again. So I don't really know exactly why I started having them. Or why they came back. Mm-hmm.
[30:34] Okay. You have remained a Christian, is that right? Yes. Okay. So how does the military figure in your theology, in your belief in God and virtue? I think there's a just war doctrine that I'd probably adhere to. I think obviously if you have a nation state that's attacked by another nation state that they have the right to defend themselves. and no of course I understand that I I understand that do you feel that that's.
[31:12] America yes and yes and no I think right up I always kind of imagined the military in like, and kind of like the the British Empire kind of way I lived in England for a little bit so when I was in a high school sometimes I would think about what I would do if I was alive during that time. If you were what? What was that? If you were what? Oh, alive in that time. Yeah. And I always like to imagine myself being on the frontier, kind of like defending the empire, if that makes sense. And for some reason, that really appealed to me. That's like a noble thing to do. And then I was like, well, why don't I do that now then? If that's kind of what I would have done then, I suppose is what I was thinking. Right, is that America, at the moment.
[32:17] I really want to be able to say yes but I don't know, well you studied history right, So you know something about what's been going on post-Second World War, right? Is America, at the moment, in your view, and I don't want to debate it, I'm genuinely curious what your thoughts and views are, I'm not here to debate you on it.
[32:52] Do you feel that the just war theory applies to America in the present time? I mean, is America being invaded by another country? No. Okay. Is America directly threatened by another country? No.
[33:17] So, help me understand how your Christianity resolved that. And I'm not saying whether it does or doesn't. I'm just curious how you work with that. I guess in my mind I've always thought of it as slightly preventative. Or at least that's how I justified it to myself. Like when my dad was deployed when I was younger, he would usually, you know, just say like, you know, something to the effect of like, you know, we're fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them here, you know, it's more of a preventative thing. Sorry, and who did he who did he feel that who did he feel was being fought over there? That you'd have to fight here otherwise? Um, I mean the Taliban, Paris in general, I guess Al-Qaeda. Okay. So I guess I guess theory goes like if we're fighting them over in the Middle East, they're going to be focused on us there, and so then they were not going to fight us here. Right. Okay. Okay. Got it. And how do you, what do you think of that approach? Uh.
[34:25] I used to not agree with it when I was younger, and I think I kind of changed my mind as I got a little bit older, only because it seemed like, um, things got worse as we withdrew. And so I used to think, like, um... Sorry, withdrew from where uh let's say afghanistan or when we started drawing down in uh in iraq uh like under obama uh and got worse uh yeah uh when we left iraq uh you know isis started forming and partially because i i think there was a lot of u.s troops there and then once we started pulling out of afghanistan uh the time starts taking over do you view the invasion of iraq as part of the just war theory. Afghanistan, for that matter.
[35:23] Afghanistan, maybe. Iraq, probably not. Okay. Because, I mean, Iraq was kind of a big deal, right? It's like more than half a million people killed, right? So if Iraq was not part of the just war theory, well, that's pretty substantial, right? Is that fair to say? I think so. And also, if Iraq is not part of the just war theory, and it's not corrected, right? In other words, if it's not like, my gosh, we invaded a country and murdered half a million people and used depleted uranium shells to wreck the genetics of entire regions, and nobody is held to account, right? Mistakes are not admitted, nobody gets fired, nobody gets court-martialed, nobody even loses a pension or gets demoted. If Iraq, and again, this is not a debatable point, again, I'm happy to hear any arguments of the contrary, but if Iraq is not particularly part of the just war theory and it happens anyway and no one gets punished, then isn't it fair to say that the military is not dedicated to the just war theory?
[36:43] Yeah, I think that would probably be accurate. Okay, so then it would be the case that the people in charge of the military, which is the most awesome killing force the world has ever seen, do not align with your values. Yeah, I'm afraid I'd have to admit that. And, that's not great, right? Right. So how do you work with that? I mean, this is not anything new. I'm sure this is discussed a billion times in the military every day. Right. So what do you think is, uh, what's the answer to the solution or how is that work in your mind? Um, I guess I kind of justified it as being like, I joined after some of those things happened. At least at the moment, we're not really in any kind of conflict. What do you mean you joined after Iraq was 2003? But I mean, we don't really have that many troops in the country now. No, no, but that doesn't change the fact that there was an invasion that goes against just war theory that nobody was held to account for.
[38:13] That's it? Yeah. I mean, if you're a squatter and you go in and kill some people and shit all over the house, and then you say, well, I haven't lived there in months, does that mean everything's fine? No. I guess I just... Honestly, I probably just did it because it's what I knew. And i didn't really know what else to do if i'm being honest with myself and listen i'm i'm not trying to argue into any of that i'm just trying to figure out why you might have felt suicidal on joining the military, okay on a scale of one to ten how christian would you say you are in other words how dead not not no nobody's perfect obviously we all sinners but how dedicated are you to jesus and your faith I would say probably like an eight. An eight, okay. Sure. Okay. So what is your view of God's view of what you're doing?
[39:37] Because it doesn't matter what I say, and it doesn't matter why you did what you did. And it doesn't matter what you profess to believe, what matters, and I'm not telling you anything you don't know, but what matters is your conscience, right? Mm-hmm. I guess i can't imagine he'd be happy with what happened and that uh essentially like i remember, even even my dad telling me that like he he feels he felt really bad for other people that, that they killed because you know we basically damn them to hell sorry all the people you killed he killed where yeah like say in afghanistan or iraq where you know wherever he was deployed he felt bad for the people that the military killed because they were damned to hell, but would they be damned to hell because they weren't christian.
[40:46] Sorry i didn't fall i didn't catch that oh yeah basically like you know we killed a bunch of people that uh weren't christians and so he felt bad for the fact that they had to die although he, He wouldn't necessarily say that it was unjust in what we did, but he told me that he did feel bad, that they had to do it. And that's because it was his perception that Afghanistan was heavily involved in 9-11, is that right? Well, also, yeah, hiding Osama bin Laden. Well, but didn't they offer to turn him over before the invasion and turn to hand him over to the States? I'm not familiar with that okay it's not not important right now okay so do you feel, that you are and i know this sounds like some big leading question i don't i'm genuinely curious right do you feel like you're on the side of the good guys doing what you do.
[41:55] And by that, I don't mean the people you're working with, right? I'm sure there are great people that you're working with, and I'm not talking about your immediate superiors. I'm talking about the machinery as a whole at the very top, right? Because that's where the orders come from, right? And if the people at the very top aren't particularly aligned with your values, then those orders are going to trickle down, and you're going to end up doing things that go against your conscience, right?
[42:31] Yeah, I guess I would say I have had a lot of disagreements with the people that are in the very tops of leadership to some degree. Right. And does the lending of massive amounts of material support, weaponry and expertise to the conflict between Russia and Ukraine, does that fall into American just war theory for you? I guess if we're, maybe not as much for the United States, but maybe for Europe, if they see it as a, if they see Russia as an existential threat by invading Ukraine, and if Ukraine fell, maybe they would have reason to support Ukraine to prevent Russia from- Right, but you're not in the European military. Right.
[43:25] I mean, does the just war theory apply everywhere in the world where there's perceived to be aggression, or is it the defense of the homeland? Defense of the homeland. Okay. Do you feel that America as a homeland is being defended at the moment? No. Right. So the just war theory says coercion or violence is acceptable in the defense of the homeland. land, but it's not really the homeland that is being defended. And in fact, I mean, the homeland is, I think if I understand what you're saying correctly, the homeland is quite the opposite of being defended, like the borders are open and so on, right? Is that fair to say? That would be fair to say, yeah. Okay. So, what effect do you think your questions about the just war theory have on your soul and your conscience?
[44:37] That my actions are in conflict with my beliefs? Well, I mean, I think that's pretty clear, but what effect does that have? I mean, obviously, you know, the prohibitions on killing and so on would apply to the military more than a private individual, because obviously the military can do so much more damage, right?
[45:03] So the very highest moral requirements would be required for the use of military force, much more so than it would be for any individual or crime gang or cartel or something like that, because they're very much limited. And the damage they can do relative to the military. That's correct, right? Yes. So the military would have to be subject to the very highest standards.
[45:29] And so if the military gets just war theory wrong, that would be worse than an individual acting in a violent manner or a group of individuals or a gang or a cartel or a mafia or something like that, right? It'd be a lot worse yeah right so and the reason i'm asking all of this is i'm trying to follow your lead and if we're going in a direction that's not helpful of course we can change that direction, but i'm sort of trying to follow your lead because i don't know that there's stuff in your childhood unless there's stuff we haven't discussed yet that would lead to this cutting yourself suicidality i mean you didn't go through as far as i understand it you didn't go through egregious physical abuse or emotional abuse, you didn't go through egregious or any kind of sexual abuse and neglect and so on, right? I mean, I don't agree obviously with the spanking and maybe the homeschooling was a bit on the restrictive side, but it wasn't like there was some monstrous evils occurring in your household as a child, right?
[46:46] So, the death feeling, the feeling of death and self-harm and so on, wouldn't that come from something you were doing as an adult rather than something that happened to you as a child? Yeah, I would agree with that. Or at least I could see that being the possibility. Right. So, if the military does not accord with your theory of the just war, or at least doesn't, and it'd have to be pretty close, right? Because it couldn't be like, well, it's 70% of the way there, because that's still hundreds of thousands of people being killed, right? Unjustly. Right. So if the military is not going in accordance with your just war theory, then that's going to be pretty hard on your conscience, right?
[47:56] Now, maybe that was part of what God was telling you when you got into the military. And maybe what waits on you if you decide not to continue in the military maybe what waits on the other side of you is maybe a bit of wrestling with the old conscience, right? Hmm.
[48:20] I actually hadn't thought of that before. Well, how's your relationship with your wife? I would say pretty excellent. Son okay and you have one child right uh three three kids three sorry i keep thinking how busy young men can be all right so and how's your relationship with your kids and how do you feel about your parenting um i would say pretty good i want to work on a little bit more uh with my oldest son i recently took like a lot of leave and had a lot of time off work and i realized as our relationship, I don't think it's as good as it could be. So I want to work with him a little bit more. And just kind of do more activities together. I started camping this past weekend and that was just great just spending one-on-one time with him. Yeah, I mean, but that's to some degree if I understand this rightly, that sort of polishing, it's not a massive repair or overhaul. Is that right? Yeah. I would say generally pretty good then. Okay. Got it. So it's probably not that, right? Your relationship with your wife. And how is your relationship with your parents these days?
[49:34] I would say generally pretty good. I have had a couple...
[49:42] I don't know. Maybe minor disagreements with them over a couple things that they're doing in their personal life that I kind of disagree with. But nothing that I think would be detrimentally harmful to our relationship.
[49:58] Right. Okay. Okay. So, So I would, if I were in your shoes, I would fall to my knees and pray to God for guidance on my future with the recognition that if, in your perception, the military, the top levels of the military may not be implementing the just war theory as perfectly as it needs to be implemented, right? I mean, it's not the kind of thing you want to get wrong. Right. You know, it's so funny. I mean, there's this whole Alec Baldwin thing where, you know, this carelessness or negligence or whatever was happening, you know, caused this woman to get killed and and another man to get injured. And, you know, he went through three years of legal hell and and he just kind of got half got off on the technicality, I think. Right. And everyone's losing their minds of, oh, my gosh, there was negligence. There was carelessness. And and one woman got shot. And it's like, you want to go talk to half a million Iraqis? You know, it's just wild to me. And he's like up on charges. And yet, you know, an entire country can be invaded largely on false information and everybody is fine. I mean, nobody even loses a rank.
[51:14] It's a wild thing. So I think that question, if we do wrong, according to our own conscience, and again, the objectivity of this argument we can put to one side for a moment, because it matters that we satisfy our conscience. And if at some level you feel that, you may be contributing your considerable skills and efforts to an organization or an army or military that is deviating from just war theory it's going to be pretty hard on your conscience right hmm.
[52:00] And that probably would be something to examine. And now, you know, maybe you pray and maybe you think, oh, this crazy Canadian guy, what does he know? And God fills you full of light and grace and virtue with regards to what's happening in the military. And, you know, I was just a test of faith or something like that, right? I certainly can't, I can't obviously speak on behalf of the great almighty. So I would say that that would be a pretty important thing to do.
[52:29] Because it's not the kind of thing you'd want to get wrong, right? Because, and certainly if, let's say in the future, right, if your kids grow up, how many sons do you have? Three. Oh, they're all three, okay. So your sons grow up, and let's say that it becomes more accepted through whatever mechanism, maybe social media, or maybe the free speech on X. But let's say that it becomes more accepted over time that the just war theory was not being implemented, right? That there was some very wrong and bad stuff going on in the military, right? Your sons and your wife and yourself, but your sons are going to have some pretty tough questions for you, right?
[53:20] And are they going to accept you as a moral authority if you were perhaps one of the bad guys, right? It, you know, it happens all the time in militaries that people go from good guys to bad guys.
[53:39] I mean, every military who loses a war goes from the good guy to the bad guy, right? And this is a bit different from that though, because this isn't a matter of martial strength, but of conscience. And if you can say to your sons, here's all the reasons I knew I was right and good and just and noble in what I was doing, I think they'll accept that. But if you avoid, right, this is the greatest sin, in my view, is this avoidance stuff, right? Because I think our conscience is pretty good and kind to us if we are doing the right thing or doing as best we can with all the knowledge that is available. And, of course, all the knowledge that is available right through the phone in your hip pocket. So.
[54:34] If you avoid examining your conscience regarding your duties, then that's, I think, one of the greatest sins. And listen, I'm just talking out of my armpit here because I'm no theologian, right?
[54:51] But if the doubt grows, and it certainly is growing. I mean, there are a lot of military people that I've read about, and even a few that I've talked to, who say, oh, yeah, my family's been in the military for like five generations. I'm absolutely telling my sons not to go in the military. Like, you know, they're missing their recruitment goals. And like, there's a certain amount of doubt because people are saying, well, why are we guarding the borders in Lebanon and Ukraine and not in our own country? Yeah. So I think, I mean, you'd know this better than I do, but I think that there's a certain amount of skepticism that is growing about the sort of noble moral nature of the military. And this is happening not just in America, but in lots of places around the world, but obviously we're focused in America. And so if that process continues and it becomes more widely embedded in society, then your sons are going to ask you and say, Dad, you know, there did seem to be some pretty bad stuff going on. You were right in there making it work, making it happen. Why did you do that? Now, if you have lots of great answers, they will accept that even if you turn out to be wrong, you gave it your best effort, right?
[56:09] But if you're like well i guess i just never really thought about it and i focused on my pension.
[56:16] Well that's you know a certain light is going to go out in your son's eyes right, because you know the one thing you really really really want to have as a parent and particularly as the father of sons is moral authority right, so I would say that examining that question would probably be pretty important.
[56:46] Honestly, I really appreciate that, actually, that I hadn't even really considered that before. Yeah, I mean, it's just that normally it's pretty clear to me in the childhood. But, you know, obviously, the last thing I'd want to do is make up problems to suit some kind of theory.
[57:12] But, yeah, I just I don't see it as coming in from the childhood. It so it must come in from the present and the most important then it came in when you joined the military and now if you're thinking about not being in the military then it's coming up again because these are the two decision points about a conscience right because you know when you're in you're just kind of doing your day-to-day and and of course the other thing too is that you're probably surrounded by some pretty great people and it's pretty hard to see any potential corruption through that, right? I would say it's probably like maybe 50-50. Some people are really good. Some people, they need some work, but... Right. Well, ain't that true for all... I'm 50-52, even in myself. Okay. I get that. I get that. So, I don't want to extend the conversation beyond what's necessary, so if I were in your shoes, I mean, we all have to live with our conscience and we have to live for a long, long life, right? You're in your 20s, so you've got 60 years to go. And, you know, I've seen people who have a bad conscience and it is a pretty terrible life. It is a pretty terrible life. And if you examine this stuff and you find your conscience is good, more power to you. And if you examine this stuff and you say, maybe my conscience isn't so good with this, that may help you with your decision about what to do next in life, right? Mm-hmm.
[58:41] That makes a lot of sense all right is there anything else that you wanted to mention, uh just just briefly if you want to mind um i had mentioned something with my uh with my brother as well um that's kind of unrelated to this but it's also been giving me a lot of i don't know a lot of grief or uh i'm not really sure what to think about it or how to move forward sure go ahead um Um, so my brother divorced his wife of seven years. Um, and the divorce was just finalized. And then just, uh, does he have kids? He does not have kids. Okay. They, they weren't able to have, they tried, but they weren't able to. Um, and then, you know, if that was because of him or her, uh, because of her. Yeah. I hate to say it. It's usually the woman because the plumbing is so much more complicated, but anyway, go on. Yeah. Yeah, so they just finalized the divorce last week, and then this week he just got engaged to a new girl.
[59:39] They finalized the divorce last week. This week he got engaged to a new girl. Yeah, so the state that he's in, you have to be separated for at least a year before you're able to finalize the divorce. So, yeah, so he'd basically just been dating this girl for about a year, and then once the divorce was official, he proposed to her. Okay. And I talked to her earlier this week. Week and she seems she seems like a nice person but i'm also just very hesitant like after the uh you know because of the divorce and the things kind of surrounding that situation i don't know if it would be appropriate for me to like let my kids be in my brother's life and he's expressed that he wants to like get to know them and like so does he not know them uh he's met my oldest this and my second. It doesn't matter third. But just like once. I like twice.
[1:00:34] He lives far away from the rest of my family, so it's really inconvenient to go visit him. And if I'm going to spend the money to go visit him, I would rather go visit my parents, my wife's parents, because they have a lot more family over there. Well, wouldn't he come to visit you, though? It's a lot easier. I don't know. There's this weird thing when you become a parent. I remember when I became a parent, my friends were like, hey, you should come over. I'm like, I got a baby. It's not easy. And you have three, right? out with three kids right and i was like you know maybe you could come here because you know otherwise i've got a especially if the weather's not great or whatever right you can you know trying to breastfeed in a snow-filled car or a snow-surrounded car is not particularly great so i just find it kind of odd that people don't just say oh well listen you have kid or kids so i'll i'll come to you yeah and we have invited him uh and when he was married to his ex-wife we invited both of them to come visit. He never took this up on offers, but we went to go visit him one time, and then he visited my parents while we were visiting them for Christmas. So he got to meet my second-born.
[1:01:46] But when we talked about... Because he invited us to their wedding, and I was like, well, it's a three-day drive. I'm sorry, the wedding to his new girlfriend? Yes. Okay. I told him it's a three-day drive, and my kids are not the most into road trips right now, so it's probably not going to happen, and it's too expensive to fly. I mean, I could try to go for a couple days, but he mentioned that he really wants to be a part of their life and meet his new fiancée, and I'm just kind of hesitant to do that, and I'm not sure if that's the right course of action. Well, I'll tell you this. I mean, obviously, I don't know, but I would say this. In my experience...
[1:02:30] I don't bother having my daughter meet someone who's not going to be consistent. And I haven't done this for probably 10 years, which is, you know, if somebody, I don't know, some friend and so on, oh, I'd love to meet your daughter and so on. It's like, if I see that person once every couple of years, there's no point.
[1:02:54] Or even once a year, like there's no, because my daughter is, they're always going to be a stranger in a way, right? Then one of my daughters is supposed to be big friends with them, and then they vanish for another six months or 12 months or whatever. That's not fair. Kids need consistency, right? Yeah.
[1:03:13] So for me, it's like, if you can commit to coming and visiting us once every month or two, that'd be great. If that's not going to happen and we're going to see you maybe a couple times a year or twice a year or maybe even once a year, no. No, then you're not getting to know my kids, right? Because you're going to miss too much and they're going to forget you. Especially when kids are young, they don't remember much from one month to the next, right? That's why you kind of need that consistency, right? So it's always going to be this kind of peculiar thing where there's this kind of closeness that's supposed to be there because it's your uncle. And it's like, but they don't see him that much. They don't really remember him. And then there's this kind of intensity that doesn't land because the kids are like, oh, yeah, who's this guy again? And he's like, you know, my nephews, whatever, right? And so for me, I'm like, I mean, it's no negative thing in particular. It's just like, if you're not going to be consistent in my daughter's life, that doesn't mean every day, but some kind of, if you're not going to be consistent in my daughter's life, then I'm, you know, I'm not going to bother investing. Interesting it's it's sort of like uh what's the point of buying a big big expensive home gym if you only work out two or three times a year it's got to be consistent right.
[1:04:32] So if you can't commit to any kind of consistency, no, the consistency could be, you know, hey, you know, I'm going to play video games with them maybe when they get older. Every week, you know, we'll do an hour or two or we'll set up the iPad and we'll watch a movie together and we'll talk about it or I don't know, like whatever. I'll read stories to them over Skype or like it doesn't necessarily have to be. Face-to-face, because, you know, travel and all of that. But if it's not going to be at least weekly, then it's tough. And it also has to be something that the kids enjoy, right? I also don't introduce people to my daughter if she doesn't particularly want to hang out with them, right? Because otherwise, you're just imposing on your kids, right? And you have to kind of respect what the kids like. You don't want to raise kids where their preferences get overridden, because then they're just going to get pushed around in life right so so i mean what's what's in it for your kids, like what how's how is it beneficial how old is your oldest he's four okay so how if you were to try and explain why it's beneficial for for him to have his uncle in his life what would you say to him.
[1:05:55] Yeah, you got me. I don't know. Right. So for me, maybe what you could do is you could say, hey, you're always welcome to call my kids. You're always welcome to get on the phone with them, to make funny faces, to tell them funny stories, to have them enjoy your company. I'm not going to block you from talking to my kids. But you have to create that relationship with them. That's not my job. My job is not to deliver them to you like I'm delivering sushi at a Japanese restaurant. You have to win my kids' affection. You have to earn their affection. So if you want them to come to your wedding, then you have to make them so excited to come to your wedding that they will do a three-day road trip. Now if you can't do that i'm not going to bundle them up like sacks of potatoes and drive them to you like that's up to you maybe this is a principle that he's missed with his maybe that's why he got divorced i don't know but i i don't make my daughter hang out with anyone and i never have because if somebody wants to hang out with my daughter it's up to them to make her want to hang out with them and then if my daughter's like oh i really want to go and see x person right It's like, okay, let's go. But I don't make her do that.
[1:07:24] Because people have to earn their relationships, right? We all do. I mean, I guess in the military, you earn it through obedience, but people have to earn their relationships. If your brother wants to have a relationship with his kids, hey, man, they're available, right? Just figure it out and make them love you. Make them, oh, Uncle So-and-So is calling. Yay! get them excited and if you don't care to do that then let's not pretend that you're that interested, that makes a lot of sense I mean, kids it's not like an arranged marriage people gotta, woo them in a way gotta make it beneficial for the kids and if they can't figure that out don't expect me to push them around because you're not willing to be more fun for them, Does that make sense? It does make sense, yeah Anything else? No, I think that was pretty much everything, I think Alright, useful convo for you? Absolutely, yeah Alright man, well listen, I appreciate the call and I obviously wish you the very best and I hope you'll stay in touch obviously and let me know how things are going I will Alright, thanks man, have a good night You too, thanks.
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