0:00 - The Beginning of the End
52:22 - The Divergence of Paths
1:06:12 - A Friend's Downfall
1:09:41 - The Illusion of Control
1:13:08 - Advice and Communication
1:15:06 - The Nature of Friendship
1:17:07 - Responsibility and Guilt
1:23:39 - The Illusion of Brilliance
1:29:36 - The Impact of Childhood
1:32:02 - Confronting Parental Issues
1:37:09 - The Cost of Vanity
1:41:28 - The Pursuit of Validation
1:46:58 - The Cycle of Denial
1:51:00 - Seeking a Middle Ground
1:55:59 - The Dangers of Vanity
2:02:00 - The Test of Reality
In this episode, Stefan engages in a deep and heartfelt conversation with a caller who is struggling to process the recent suicide of a close friend referred to as "Flash." The caller begins by expressing feelings of guilt and sorrow over their diminished relationship, revealing that they had drifted apart in recent years. As the discussion unfolds, the caller recounts the history of their friendship, highlighting pivotal moments and the challenges faced, particularly relating to Flash’s unpredictable behaviors and choices.
The caller describes how they met Flash shortly after migrating to the U.S. as a teenager and how their friendship blossomed during college and early adulthood, where Flash provided much-needed support. However, as time went on, Flash faced several personal crises and exhibited increasingly erratic behaviors, including impulsive life choices. The caller details Flash’s struggle with what appeared to be mental health issues, stemming from upbringing in a religious household and various encounters with drugs like LSD and DMT. Flash's experiences led to profound shifts in his perspective on life, culminating in a chaotic quest for identity and purpose.
Stefan probes the relationship, seeking to understand the underlying dynamics between the caller and Flash. The caller shares anecdotes illustrating Flash's descent into a troubled state, including a bold move to quit his job, impulsively change career paths, and ultimately pursue acting in Los Angeles, all while becoming more disconnected from reality and the concerns of those around him. Flash’s self-perception as a misunderstood genius began to evolve into a troubling narrative that distanced him from friends and family.
As they explore Flash's failed relationships, particularly with a girlfriend who exerted a controlling influence over him, both the caller and Stefan analyze the implications these dynamics have on mental well-being. The caller reflects on his inability to convince Flash to reconsider his impulsive decisions, and they discuss how his pride prevented him from accepting constructive criticism, leading to isolation. Stefan emphasizes the importance of honesty and humility – traits that Flash ultimately struggled with.
The conversation takes a turn toward the nature of guilt, self-delusion, and the perception of reality. The caller grapples with the realization that despite their efforts to support Flash, he failed to listen to reason or guidance, and thus the responsibility cannot solely rest on the caller's shoulders. Stefan reinforces the notion that some people refuse to confront uncomfortable truths and often prefer to live in a fabricated reality, which can lead to disastrous outcomes.
The caller's narrative culminates in the tragic event of Flash's suicide, prompting an exploration of whether any actions could have changed his trajectory. Stefan reassures the caller that despite their friendship, they cannot control another person's choices and that isolating oneself due to someone's refusal to engage in constructive dialogue is a necessary protective measure. The episode concludes with a discussion on the importance of accountability, the willingness to accept outside opinions, and the consequences of living in denial, as seen through the lens of Flash’s struggles. This poignant exchange serves as a reminder of the critical need for community, support, and open communication in navigating mental health crises.
[0:00] I'm all ears, my friend. How can I best help?
[0:02] Well, I recently had a very good friend that...
[0:11] I'm so sorry, your audio is very muffled and hard to hear. Are you using a headset or a speakerphone? It's just hard to hear, and it's very tough to have these combos if I'm having trouble hearing.
[0:22] Yeah. Yeah, I'm taking off my headphones.
[0:28] Okay. all right go ahead.
[0:31] Um is it better now uh.
[0:33] It seems all right yeah thank you.
[0:35] Okay um yeah so recently i had a friend that um committed suicide and uh it it it can you know i well i feel a lot of guilt because over the years we kind of cool apart um so i guess i here i gotta do like a recap right um from the last call that we had um i came to this country um the states when i was when I was 14 and, at the beginning of my, school career in high school and a big part of college I went through a.
[1:30] A period of isolation and after this isolation that's my you know is when i met this friend you know for the simplicity of you know the story let's call him flash um given now we're in the super superhero era um so flash was um i i met flash when you know when we were in a class he helped me with a lot of classwork and over time we just started hanging out and eventually I realized Flash was able to I guess have a lot of deep conversations and after I graduated from college he and I stayed in touch and over time he was very like at the beginning of my uh career so after graduating from college when i was trying to figure out what exactly was a career path that i wanted to get on and flash was really helpful um and we talked a lot about what we wanted in life what we wanted to strive I got a chance to meet his family at some point.
[2:55] We grew apart in recent years because he demonstrated a very high level of unpredictability. I, you know, there was one time he, um, I mean, he didn't even know that I was married. And then there was one time he talked about coming to my city to visit me. And I very clearly showed hesitation. And then he just, yeah, one day he just passed away. I mean, I actually saw it coming. Um, I feel like right now, I mean, still, you know, this happened recently. So I'm still trying to cope with the fact that now he's gone. I guess, you know, I always, I guess I wasn't surprised by this outcome. I was more saddened by it. So that's where I'm at right now.
[3:56] Right. Okay. And is there, I'm sure there's more backstory or background or the challenges that you're facing now or, or, yeah, I just, I feel like it's a very brief intro and I'm certainly happy to hear more.
[4:09] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I guess let me just start from the very beginning, right? Maybe that's easier. Yeah, so he and I met. Let me just start when I was, after I got my first job. So Flash was very supportive. And we used to call every week, if not twice a week. At that point, I didn't have that many people supporting me. and Flash was very... Was a very good listener, and he was very good at asking questions. And he asked a lot of questions that made me feel, that helped me navigate my situation better. And I did say I was not surprised by his downfall. I'll get into it more.
[5:14] Sorry, by his what?
[5:16] Downfall downfall.
[5:18] Okay got it yeah.
[5:19] So Flash and I were hanging out one time and I guess that was my first time seeing him like seeing a red flag in that relationship and I brushed it off so Flash grew up in a very very religious household and And he was all about Christianity, he was all about God, and ironically, he took LSD one time.
[6:01] And at that point, he described that part of his life as moving away from God. And he took lsd and then apparently blew him out of the universe and then it made him feel it made him see how dark and small our world is and he saw how bright you know god's light was and then he came back to reality and he and he was like okay i gotta you know i gotta straighten up So at that point, I saw Lash as I saw him having this unique single experience where.
[6:51] Where he just wanted to do good and to work on himself again. So at that point, I brushed it off.
[7:03] Sorry, brushed off what?
[7:06] Like, I mean, if I heard it now, I would have been like, so...
[7:11] Oh, you mean you brushed off the LSD thing?
[7:14] Yeah, LSD thing, yeah.
[7:15] Okay, and do you know why he took the LSD?
[7:17] I would have asked. I didn't know. I didn't ask. And from his description of it, I guess he thought he a lot was having the standard American college experience for the first semester. And then he took LSD, he saw God, and then he started focusing on his studies. Least that was you know that was a narrative like that and he yeah he um, i'm trying to recall and i guess like looking back at that experience he i mean this is going to be important later he had the ability to merge i guess like.
[8:11] I guess like uh the things that he saw in you know when he took psychedelics and the the things that he interpreted like he he saw a lot of signs i'll get i'll get into this more he saw a lot of signs a lot of messages in ordinary things and then he would think that uh it's god sending him messages So, and then in the same setting, it was not long after he also told me that a dream that he had where he was chased by a witch and he was finally caught by the witch. And then the witch was, you know, closing his arms or dragging him where he wouldn't let her but he eventually got dragged and then he woke up and he said ever since that dream he got this like stomach pain so like these things these things just didn't just felt ordinary at the time but he told me but now looking back at it they felt like they they they felt telling i I guess.
[9:31] So not long after, and I was actually doing COVID. I was staying with him because, you know, COVID was, I lived in the city. So COVID was insane where, where I live. I didn't want to be locked in a box. So then I went to stay with him. He lived in the suburbs and yeah. So we were just staying together. And one day he just.
[10:01] He talked one night he started just talking a lot about um god and was right and how dark this this world uh was and he he spent like all night talking about it and talking about the light, talking about how people went playing the game and that he didn't want to play the game and the morning after. So at that point, he still had a job where he lived. So Flash woke up the day after. Actually, I woke up, he woke up way before I did. He had his car packed. He had everything packed. And then he was like, I don't think you can stay here any longer. I have to go back to where we went to college to start some kind of mission. Mission, there's a pastor and I met there and I want to view what he does. So I was like, what about your job? What about your parents? His parents live pretty close by. So Flash said.
[11:19] He had his mind made up. There was no convincing him. So he He was like, I really feel like I need to do this. And I'm going to quit my job now in the middle of COVID. And then he didn't have insurance. He didn't have health insurance. We didn't know what was going on. So Flash just packed everything up, told me to get a flight back to the city where I lived. And he said bye to his parents. Of course, his parents freaked out on him.
[12:00] And he just left. He just left. Um so at that point he had a he had a new phone number and he got the new phone number obviously to run away from how to keep his parents, from contacting him so flash promised me that he would check in with me every day, and he did for a few days and he just vanished you know i called him i texted him the response, and i was like you know at this point i gotta keep in touch with flash's family because i don't know if um he was safe so i did and um i gave his new i gave his new number to his his family and his family reached out, was able to talk to him back and, um, and, and, and work with him, you know, work some kind of a project with him. Um, and talked him into doing a graduate degree and Flash was, he felt grounded afterwards. So I talked to him. So he felt what? Grounded.
[13:29] Grounded after he talked to his parents.
[13:32] Yeah, after he talked to his parents and after he came back.
[13:36] Okay.
[13:37] So he felt grounded to the point where I felt like I could talk to him about these things.
[13:43] Sorry, these things is which things?
[13:46] About him leaving.
[13:47] About him leaving during COVID, right?
[13:49] Okay. Because the mental state that he was in was that there was no convincing him. And any opposing opinions would automatically make me a part of the conspiracy. And I remember very clearly, I was like, hey, I don't think I'll quit your job. And then he was like well I also said I remember it very clearly you can't just you can't just I support you want to be on your own but you can't just quit your job in the middle in the middle of a pandemic we don't know what's going on and he said well, you packed you packed everything and left and I didn't have I didn't have a comeback for it so sorry.
[14:48] He said that you Left everything?
[14:51] Yeah. Well, I can't even say when I was 14, I didn't have any family here, right?
[14:56] Okay.
[14:56] So that's what you're referring to.
[14:58] Okay.
[14:58] And he was like, you packed everything up and left. So I must have...
[15:05] But that wasn't your choice in particular, right?
[15:08] There was no convincing him. I tried. I very clearly expressed my opinions and my situation, and there was no talking him out of it. Um so so afterwards he came back i said to him i was like what happened what what happened because it was not a clear it was not something that uh that uh that's not normal would do i guess he you know he said he felt like the job was a dead-end job he didn't like where he was at And then he just wanted to pursue God's calling. And there was no preparation. He just packed up and he left.
[16:02] And then he said he appreciated me checking up on him. And he appreciated me supporting him. And it turned out he also took LSD before leaving. And I didn't know he hid it from me, even though I was like his roommate I didn't I didn't see signs of it, you know, he didn't let me know the only thing I saw him you know, take was like, Advil or you know, that kind of stuff Sorry.
[16:42] What was it you saw him take? Advil I'm sorry, I'm not quite catching that, Advil?
[16:48] Evio, yeah.
[16:48] Okay, got it. Yeah, so not a drug, right? Just a painkiller. Okay. A mild one, right? Yeah. Okay.
[16:56] So, and, yeah, so that happened. That happened. And I guess that was, that was, I guess, like, it was something that made me go, well, you know, something's going on. But in his graduate studies, he was very, I guess, grounded. He was very...
[17:25] He didn't show signs of the running away thing. And then he met this girl. Flash started dating this girl and everything seemed great from his description of it. Went down to see them one summer and.
[17:52] They had a they had an argument in front of me where the girl wanted to drive an hour away to hang out with her friends. And Flash was like, baby, we planned this for weeks. You knew my friends were coming. You knew we had guests coming. I mean, why is it, why is this coming up now? And we can't just, we can't just leave, you know, in the middle of the trip to see your friends or my friends. So that kind of argument. So, and then, and then we, and then you went home for like an hour and we, we eventually drove to see Flash's girlfriend's friends. And then we drove back and then there was a um so i guess like in his relationship there was a lot of, a lot of miscommunication sorry let me take it back that's not like miscommunication i guess there was a lot of controlling um aspects like that and then sorry what.
[19:11] Do you mean i'm not Not sure what you mean by the word controlling in this context.
[19:16] It would be more helpful if I told you the other stories.
[19:21] Sure, go for it.
[19:24] So Flash eventually broke up with his girlfriend. And his girlfriend, or Flash's mom, knew about the breakup before Flash found out. And then Flash was extremely hurt by that. I remember he called me. He was like, this is ridiculous. How can my mom know before I found out? And then after they broke up, Flash's girlfriend really made all their mutual friends kick ass, and um sorry.
[20:13] Made their mutual friends what.
[20:14] Tick sides take.
[20:16] Sides got it okay.
[20:17] So yeah so she she was making the narrative that flash was um flash was intimidating or or or a lot of like i guess a lot of making her uncomfortable uh narrative and the friends i guess like the friends would just feel awkward when they are in the same room so for example you know friend a is in the room as the girl and slash they would feel very uncomfortable and then they would just hang out with the girlfriend, and not making eye contact with Flash. So, a lot of that.
[21:12] Sorry, and this was after they broke up?
[21:14] Yeah, that was after they broke up.
[21:16] So why are they hanging out together after they break up?
[21:21] I guess from his description of it, they are they were invited by a lot of mutual friends to parties and stuff. Okay it wasn't it wasn't that they chose to hang out together it was more so like they both had the same friend group and then when they had something going on they would either not invite flash or they would invite them together and flash and the girl would show up, they kind of thing okay so.
[21:59] So yeah, I remember Flash was also hurt because one of the friends invited him and told him that he had to leave to a party and told him that he had to leave because his ex was there. And he called me flash called me and he said he was extremely hurt by them and I was like why are you friends with people that don't stand up for you and I helped him craft uh this message, that essentially was like a breakup just be like hey um you don't you don't need to invite me anymore kind of thing and then, and then that person responded and be like oh, I understand where you're coming from kind of thing so that happened so I guess like all of these stories they taught me after the fact that the X was controlling because, you don't you know you don't.
[23:12] I guess being apart from your ex-partner isn't enough for me to want to be like, hey, you can either be friends with one of us. You see what I mean? So there's like a controlling aspect going into it. same thing with the mom thing and it felt like the ex-partner wanted to, assert her narrative of how the relationship went to the mom and telling the mom that it was flash's fault instead of sorry whose mom i was flash's mom telling.
[23:51] So oh so the girlfriend went to flash's mom and told the mom that it was flash's fault.
[23:57] Yeah because the mom knew about the breakup before flash found out and flash's mom didn't tell him about it sorry.
[24:06] Why why why is the girlfriend going to flash's mop.
[24:11] That's a very good question um that's that's a little psycho.
[24:15] Isn't it?
[24:16] Yeah. So why?
[24:21] I'm not saying you know. I just...
[24:24] I think... I have a speculation. I think the girlfriend just needed to control the narrative that she was a good, guy in the relationship, and it was all Flash's fault.
[24:43] Okay.
[24:44] That's why I think, from what I have seen, being around them, and then the whole experience ripped Flash's friends away from him.
[25:01] Wait, did you know what the mom did or said?
[25:04] The mom did nothing. The mom did nothing. And afterwards, the mom, so after Flash was broken up with, and Flash told mom about it, mom was not surprised. That's how Flash knew that she knew.
[25:24] Sorry, mom was not what?
[25:26] Surprised.
[25:27] Okay. But did mom defend Flash? Did his mom defend him?
[25:31] No.
[25:32] Excellent. Okay, so that's excellent stuff with regards to betraying your children. Okay, go ahead.
[25:39] Yeah. So Slash's mom never defended him. She did nothing. She said nothing. And Slash was extremely hurt by it. Called me and told me about this situation. And not long after, this is when we started talking about parents. And at that point, I didn't even, I didn't start confronting my parents until way, way, way later. But at that point, I went to Hawaii. And during the trip, I had a fight with my mom. And then my mom had this amazing narrative, pay me back. Pay me back, these three words. And I stopped talking to her.
[26:29] Oh, she meant like for the trip?
[26:31] No, no, no, a tuition.
[26:33] Oh, so you had a fight with your mom, and she demanded that you pay back tuition for a university that she'd paid for.
[26:39] Exactly. Exactly. And all the money that she, quote unquote, invested in me. And I came back, I called, and then he said, I told him about it. And then he said, my dad told me the same thing. So, I guess the reason why I'm saying this is, I guess, like, his family dynamic and, my family dynamic were similar. So we both grew up in families where we were really, I guess like our parents used finances as a way to control us. And unfortunately, his family, I guess like his family is very successful in the local community. they are very well-off. So, yeah, so Flash is, So Flash is...
[28:02] Well, there's a lot of money to control him if that's what they want to do, right?
[28:07] Yeah. Well, I mean, arguably his tuition to his family is probably changed. And Flash's family kept, using it as some kind of a leverage and be like, hey, you need to do this. This is the right... I guess this is the right way of approaching a career. This is a right thing to do. And then...
[28:36] Sorry, are you guys the same ethnicity?
[28:38] No.
[28:39] Okay, go ahead.
[28:40] This one, it was very interesting, because Swash, these were his exact different cultures, different languages, different...
[28:53] Yeah, the function is the same everywhere you go.
[28:55] Yep, same message. Pay me back. right taking that and um yeah and he told me about him growing up he was always afraid of his dad, flash was really afraid of his dad he all he knew was fear when it comes to his dad, i remember very clearly in the phone call that he said in college he talked to his dad about his childhood and he told his dad all you um all i ever remember growing up was being afraid of you, so and i don't i asked him what his dad what his dad's response to that was and i don't remember exactly what he said uh it wasn't it wasn't, taking accountability from what I can recall. Yeah, so after that...
[29:55] Hang on, hang on. What was he scared of about his dad?
[29:59] So his dad had a very... Fixed or strict way to do things. His dad is a very successful entrepreneur. So, and then he, so, and then I guess like, Flash, Kura, seeing that. And then...
[30:23] Well, hang on. I mean, being strict and focusing on excellence, I mean, I'm fairly strict with myself. I focus on excellence and nobody's scared of me. So, at least in my family. So it's got to be more than just his father was strict and successful.
[30:38] Well, I guess strict and successful aren't the right words. Or they are not, you know, all of it, right? I think there was a lot of, it's my way or it's no way. And I brought you to this world. I have the right to take you out kind of thing.
[30:57] So was his father violent? Did his father threaten? Is that what you mean?
[31:02] Not that I know of.
[31:03] Not that you know of, okay. And do you know if he was spanked, hit, beaten, yelled at?
[31:12] I haven't had. I don't remember if he told me. I don't think he did. I was actually wondering about that, too, after he passed. So, yeah, so I don't know anything about that.
[31:27] So you don't know if he was abused in any way?
[31:34] No, I don't. I don't. But I know that he was not listened to. I know that he was young a lot growing up. And yeah, he was intimidated a lot.
[31:53] Was he called names?
[31:56] Sorry, was it?
[31:57] Was he called names?
[32:00] I would not be surprised. I can't recall any instances where he told me that he was called names, but I would not be surprised.
[32:12] Okay, sorry, go on.
[32:13] Yeah, so I guess the phone call just tapped into a little bit of, our family history and how similar we were. In the last call, you know, when I described my upbringing, you know, I mentioned...
[32:36] Your last call with me, you mean?
[32:38] Yeah, with you. Okay, got it. When I described my childhood upbringing, I mentioned, you know, my parents wanted me to study really hard, and I wouldn't. And then they would beat me for not studying hard, and then I still wouldn't. And then you asked me why. And then And our conclusion from that call was that I hated my parents. And I didn't want to give them the satisfaction from me academically succeeding under their wing until I came to the States.
[33:12] And Flash was the opposite there. He was very susceptible to intimidation, not just from his family, I feel like. And he always went back. So let me just continue with my story. So after the boyfriend, after the catastrophic relationship, he went ahead and he got himself a job. And I think, you know, his family is well known in the area. He got a job. I don't know if he got a job through his family's connection, but his family knew his new job CEO. And Flash got a new job, got very... Three months in, he went, I feel like...
[34:20] Sorry, had he finished his education?
[34:23] Oh, he did. He graduated.
[34:24] Okay, got it.
[34:25] Yeah, yeah, he graduated, got himself a job.
[34:28] And the job was, you don't have to give me details, of course, but the job was, was it in the field he'd studied?
[34:33] Yeah, yeah.
[34:34] Okay, sorry, go ahead.
[34:36] I mean, it's going to be important later, so I guess I'll just tell you he was, his job was some kind of engineering. It's going to be important later. He got in the job three months in and he said he felt like he could do more than most people working there. He felt like the CEO, the boss of the company, was just there to keep him down. It was there to prevent him from outshining them. So he quit. He quit. He told the CEO, if you don't let me Excel, if you don't let me do things outside of the box, you might as well just fire me. And they did. So he, Um, he got fired and he called me, Flash called me in that call. And then he just not, it was just a lot of.
[35:56] Sorry, but was he a, was he a brilliant engineer? Did he have a point?
[36:02] He was a brilliant engineer, but. But he was in that job for three months. And sometimes, I mean, I am at a job and there are things that are worth pursuing, you know, in innovation. They are but but sometimes it is sometimes someone at my position can see the first eye view of how to deliver the innovation um how to send it yeah you have to.
[36:40] You have to pay your dues a little bit right you can't just go.
[36:42] And say i'm brilliant and.
[36:44] I have to be at the top and i i the only way i'm going to be an actor is if i star in a movie and like you have to you.
[36:50] Have to be.
[36:50] Willing to pay your dues a little bit right uh.
[36:53] Your analogy is very uh it's very on point because it's gonna be it's gonna be rolling later but but but she yeah two months and he felt like he could do more than most people at that job and he just just not i guess just not um, satisfied he felt like he was being kept down, And he quit. He turned to quit, and then he got fired. He called me, and then he saw a lot of signs.
[37:24] Sorry, he called you what?
[37:26] Well, he called me, and then he said he saw a lot of signs in life that God was sending him. And, for example, he quit his job, and as he was leaving the office, this he saw a statue you know sitting in a way that i guess like mother mary sits in a lot of, her statues um and i guess like that taught her that taught her um what that taught him to be humble and that taught him to that that that was to be humble yeah the right way to go you know like wait so he.
[38:05] Says i'm a brilliant engineer i've been here for three months you're You're holding me back, and I'm going to quit, and they fire him. And on the way out of this rather arrogant situation, he has a vision of humbleness?
[38:21] He had a lot of, I guess, arguments or radical decisions. For example, in that very example, he saw the statue as a sign that Mother Mary telling him to not surround himself with people that are arrogant.
[38:46] Oh, so he didn't view himself as arrogant. He viewed the other people as arrogant.
[38:52] Yes.
[38:52] The people he worked for. Okay, so he may not quite have gotten the whole humble thing.
[38:58] Yeah.
[38:59] Okay.
[39:00] I guess that's the irony of it. And he told me a lot of things. He told me a lot of things. And, you know, a lot of things in that call were just signs that he saw that God was talking to him and telling him that that was the right decision.
[39:14] Okay but i assume he sounded kind of crazy in the call yeah yeah and i mean even even if he genuinely believed that god was talking to him the way that you know if somebody's disturbed is they're talking about this like it's obvious and they're not saying i know this sounds crazy but let me tell you what my thought process is and tell me if i'm being nuts and right they're just like no i saw the sign and then i saw this and it's like they just go on and on as if it's perfectly natural what they're saying.
[39:43] Yeah, yeah. Totally. That's exactly what I thought. That's exactly what I thought. So, after the call, I texted the GED. I was like, you know, I got a very clear vibe that he was going to run away again. I said, I said, I am very concerned about Flash. He is giving me a sense that he gave me back in 2020. He told me about his employment situation, and I am very concerned about him. I just wanted to let you know about this, and I would appreciate it if you can keep my message discreet. That's exactly what I said. And then flash like a week later flash called me and was like did you text my dad and said i was crazy and i was like what the fuck so yeah so i i mean i told i told flash the whole thing you know my my entire thought process so.
[40:56] He said did you call my parents and say i'm crazy and you said well i had this conversation and here's why is that what you mean.
[41:01] Yeah okay yeah i i immediately I immediately told him, I was like, you know, it feels like you're not grounded. It feels like you're, you know, I am more or less in the same innovation field. And this is not how things should work. You were three months in the job and you've got to understand how, you know, how off the ground it was seen to people like me.
[41:33] Um and i'm sorry let me just ask this was flash, Under the care of any mental health professionals? Was he in therapy? Did he have a team? Because people knew that he was pretty unstable, right?
[41:49] No. At that point, what the Jets said was that they were looking into places to send him to.
[41:59] Jets being what?
[42:02] He didn't specify.
[42:04] Like an institution or something like that?
[42:07] He didn't specify. about it. I don't think... I think he went to see a psychiatrist, and then Flash told me that they didn't find anything.
[42:21] Oh, that he was fine?
[42:24] Yeah, that he was fine.
[42:25] I wonder if he told the psychiatrist that he quit his job and then the Virgin Mary told him to embrace humility by assuming that everyone around him was arrogant.
[42:37] I don't know, but Blash told me that he was fine.
[42:41] Sorry, he told you that the psychiatrist had told him that he was fine, is that right?
[42:47] Yes. He told me that he went to see a psychiatrist and then they did some kind of an exam on him and he was completely fine. That was what he told me.
[42:57] And did you believe him at all?
[43:01] It didn't matter if I believed him, if I voiced any.
[43:07] No, no. Did you believe him? I didn't say, did it matter if you believed him?
[43:11] No, I didn't. Okay.
[43:13] Got it.
[43:13] I, because he was showing.
[43:18] He's manic, right?
[43:20] Yeah. He was showing swings. So for example, like there were days that he felt fine and there were days that he felt, off the ground for lack of a better word, insane.
[43:37] Yeah, I get it.
[43:39] And then in these calls, I would feel, when it wasn't appropriate to disagree with him. And then it was it was painful it was painful because I felt like I should have done something and then I felt like I did the only thing that I could have done and not only did it not help him, it came back to bite me in the butt.
[44:22] Okay.
[44:23] Yeah. So, uh, so after he, I'm trying to recall what he did after, um, after that, he, I think he went to, he spent a long time preparing for, um, like a overseas volunteering role. And then he spent months getting ready for it. and when the final...
[44:52] Sorry, was this a religious thing?
[44:56] I don't think so. I can say 100% for sure.
[45:01] Okay.
[45:03] But he spent months preparing for it and he, finally submitted the paperwork, There was a waiting period. You know, there was like a day, a few months out, um, before he flew out for, uh, for the volunteer role. And then, you know, in, in that few months, he just decided to travel the world.
[45:33] And where was he, where was he getting his money from?
[45:38] Uh, I guess from the engineering job, like the leftover from the engineering job, or I, I don't.
[45:49] I mean, it's, it's a like, it's a bourgeois thing of mine, but, you know, boy, I would have loved to travel the world in my 20s. I was just broke. So, I mean, I don't know where people get all this money from. I mean, I understand where women get their money from sometimes to travel, but, you know, nobody's paying me for sex. so I just I don't know if you know but how could he afford all this nonsense yeah.
[46:13] I don't know for sure but his family is well off.
[46:20] I understand that but that doesn't mean that you have money right doesn't mean that he has money.
[46:28] Well you know sometimes you know sometimes having a law of family is kind of sweet right if they could just well.
[46:39] Okay so he's getting his money from his family in your guess right yeah okay okay i just i just i was just curious like so then they're enabling all of this because one of the ways one of the ways that you can bring people back to reality is don't give them money you know and then it's like well i guess i have to be sane like he could quit his job because he didn't need the money i mean you and i and everyone and their dog has disagreed with bosses and don't like bosses and have problems with the organization and what happens? Well, we shut up because we need to eat and we find a way to get along with people we don't agree with because we need to eat. So I guess my issue is that it sounds like he his parents gave him money so he didn't have to he didn't have to be sensible.
[47:32] No. Yeah, that would be my guess. That would be my guess. And yeah, I agree with you, because I recently just had a disagreeing situation with my boss, and I actually talked to them, and I actually understood why they did what they did, so I agree with you.
[47:58] Okay, so the parents have some accountability or responsibility responsibility, in this, he's going crazy. Because crazy is expensive. Crazy, you know, that's why a lot of crazy people are homeless. It's because being crazy is expensive. You get fired, you don't have enough money. And one of the ways you have to say, okay, I guess I can't be that crazy, because I need to eat. So yeah, I just, it's interesting from that standpoint. But but sorry, go ahead.
[48:32] Yeah, yeah. So yeah, he left, and then he traveled the world, went to Asia, went to Europe, came back, and said, I don't want to volunteer anymore. I want to do it back.
[48:51] Sorry, so he volunteered doing this, so it wasn't like fun travel.
[48:55] It was like the volunteer travel.
[48:57] Right?
[48:57] No, no, he wasn't volunteering during the traveling. He wanted to travel the world before the volunteering.
[49:03] Okay, got it, got it.
[49:04] And then he came back and said, I don't want to go on the trip to volunteer anymore. I want to go to LA to do acting.
[49:13] Ah, okay. Hey, so this is a good analogy I had earlier. Okay.
[49:18] Yeah, this is exactly why I was like, this is a very interesting analogy.
[49:21] All right.
[49:21] So like you know I think I need to help people and then volunteering doesn't help a lot of people I gotta be very rich and I gotta um and and going to Hollywood to pursue acting is, He gave me that. He packed up and he went to LA.
[49:49] And how did he afford this? Did his parents just give him more money?
[49:54] Actually, no, no. I mean, for my guess, he was very, he told me about his homeless experience. He told me that he was watching pets, like signing up for one of the pet watching apps so that he could stay at people's homes. I think his family was very disagreeing that he just brought everything and went to LA. And then he applied for the barista job at a Starbucks, and he also applied to be a security graveyard shift watcher.
[50:36] This is so pitiful. It was pitiful because I'm such a genius engineer, I'm going to be a pet watcher. I'm so brilliant at being an engineer, I'm going to make coffee. I mean, that's just so sad.
[50:53] Yeah, he felt like he could bring the way of his hometown to LA, to change LA. That was his narrative. I thought he.
[51:07] Was going to be inactive now he's a change agent in LA I don't understand.
[51:11] So he, his hometown is very small where people would look after each other and then he felt like and then his whole thing was bringing change his volunteering position, initially he wanted to do engineering, and then his His narrative to do acting was that he would gain a lot of money, a lot of wealth doing it, and then he would give a lot of money away. And at the same time, he started in L.A. because he felt like L.A. Was this nasty, corrupt place.
[51:52] Yeah, like Sodom and Gomorrah.
[51:53] Yeah, where people wouldn't look out for each other. So he wanted to bring his hometown's way to L.A. to change people. And, yeah, that's how, that was the narrative. And then that's, if I were going to pinpoint exactly where our relationship diverged, that was the point. It was that point. It was that point our relationship diverged.
[52:23] Sorry, when you mean diverged, what do you mean?
[52:31] 100% in our calls, you know, I started feeling some kind of an avoidance interacting with him.
[52:43] Yeah, he's crazy.
[52:46] Yeah, and then I didn't feel like...
[52:47] And sorry, and did this, I don't want to put words in your mouth, was that your sort of thought or experience?
[52:57] Yeah, well, I thought that he was extremely unpredictable.
[53:01] Okay. So you didn't think he was crazy? I'm not criticizing, I just want to understand.
[53:10] I feel like I guess the definition here the definition of crazy I thought normal people wouldn't do this.
[53:21] No, no. The crazy stuff right? The crazy stuff has to do with not are people unusual or ambitious it's, are they realistic?
[53:36] I did not think that he was realistic.
[53:38] I mean, it sounds like that's where you thought the instability was. It's like, I'm such a brilliant engineer that I'm going to go be an actor. And also the delusional stuff of like, I'm just going to go and be an actor, and I'm going to make a lot of money, like right away. That's delusional.
[53:58] Yeah.
[53:59] I mean, unless you disagree. I mean, obviously you can disagree, but it would seem to me, if somebody said to me, well, I need to make a lot of money, so I'm going to go and be an actor, I'd be like, bro, actors are broke.
[54:13] I know.
[54:14] And the odds that you go and make a lot of money right away as an actor are so close to zero, you might as well play the lottery.
[54:21] I spoke to my girlfriend at the time i was like he is gonna end up homeless and he and he did for a little bit it sounds like he did for a little bit um and i also sorry.
[54:37] If if people go out with these big ambitions and they don't get humbled by facts so when he went out to make a lot of money and be a famous actor or successful actor and then he ended up homeless did it humble him at all.
[54:52] Uh this is where the story got interesting i guess i'll get into it more uh-huh it was i.
[55:01] Like how we're an hour in and you're like no no here's where it gets interesting i'm like okay.
[55:05] Um so after the call that he told me that he would go to la to pursue acting i stopped talking to him for months.
[55:16] Well, did he take any feedback on any of this?
[55:19] No. It was one of the instances where I knew I couldn't disagree with him.
[55:27] Well, you could. I mean, you can do anything you want in any relationship you want, right? But what would happen if you did disagree with him?
[55:35] Well, I did disagree with him in terms of the actors don't make that much money off the bat. And then he said something like oh that's because you are playing the game like because what? It's because you're playing the game apparently he saw people he described it as people playing the game and he didn't want to play the game.
[55:59] What game? What's he talking about?
[56:01] Like, I guess, like, the society, the societal ladder, you know, you have to, it's that you have to act a certain way to climb the ladder. That was the game.
[56:14] I still don't understand what he's talking about.
[56:19] He, well, so, if you were gonna, you know, if you were gonna start you know, bottom up in your 20s, right, you have to get a job, and and then you learn and then you have to interact with your co-workers in a certain way, in a work setting professional way. And then you have to interact with your bosses in a work professional way. And then he saw that as playing the game. I guess that's my understanding of it.
[56:50] So did he feel that actors didn't know how to play the game and that's why they didn't make any money? Yes so he thought that he's really good at working in big organizations which is why he got fired after three months from his engineering job he.
[57:08] Yeah i guess.
[57:11] No no i don't want to guess i don't want to be unfair sure guy's obviously not here to defend himself i just don't quite and so he had to have some reason as to why he was able to make money quickly as an actor right.
[57:27] I guess he wasn't in it for the money. And it might be more helpful if I can just deliver the entire story of L.A. Verse.
[57:40] Well, here's the thing, though. You keep delivering more and more of the story. We've been talking for an hour.
[57:46] Sure.
[57:46] Right? And so I guess I don't mind hearing more of the story, but at some point we have to get to the point of the story. Because right now it's just a crazy guy doing crazy stuff. And I get the pattern. So if there's more to talk about, or is it just more crazy guy doing crazy stuff?
[58:02] Well, I mean, he committed suicide, so...
[58:05] I get that. But if it's just a whole series of crazy guy doing crazy stuff, I think we get the point. Now, if there's more that's relevant and important in the story going forward, then that's fine. But right now, I don't know that... Like, we've already had, you know, five or ten instances of a crazy guy doing crazy stuff. I'm not sure that we need 12 or 14 to get the pattern if that makes sense sure.
[58:29] Sure sure uh sorry what was your original question again did he did he know that he what did he think that he was so good at playing the game and i.
[58:42] Just i don't understand even his reasoning about this you know everybody everybody knows it takes a while to be good as an actor and to make money he's an actor and so did he know or how did he bypass that did he say well i know how to play the game or something like i don't even know what that means in particular but he had some magic spell that allowed him to bypass the poor part of being an actor.
[59:08] I don't think he thought about it. That would be my...
[59:12] So he ends up homeless, and then what happens in L.A.?
[59:16] Well, he committed suicide.
[59:20] I'm sorry, I thought you said there was a whole story in L.A. Now, I know I asked you to go a little faster, but I don't know that we want to go right to the end of the story immediately.
[59:28] That was his first attempt to take his life.
[59:32] Oh, he tried to commit suicide?
[59:34] Once.
[59:35] Okay, not he committed suicide?
[59:37] No, no, not that. not at that point yet and then I didn't talk to him for a few months he went to now.
[59:45] You're going too fast just find something in the middle here.
[59:49] Sure so.
[59:53] He tried to kill himself and how did he try to kill himself and how did you find out about it and what did you do if anything.
[1:00:01] Yeah I didn't talk to him for a few months and when I talked to him he told me that he had a crazy story And it was crazy. And he told me that he flew to Egypt, cut his chest or whatever. He climbed one of the pyramids because it was like close to God, cut his chest. And then they saved him and they shipped him back. That was that was a story like I got and I heard it and I was like you know as anyone would you could go what's going on right that this is not you know this person is not okay right.
[1:00:45] And how did he get the money to fly to Egypt if he was homeless?
[1:00:50] I don't know.
[1:00:52] I mean, did his parents just give him more money?
[1:00:55] I didn't ask. I didn't ask.
[1:00:58] We assume so, though. Yeah.
[1:01:02] I was very scared at the point, obviously. For him and for myself. And yeah, that was his first attempt. I talked to him. Two times after that.
[1:01:17] And sorry, this was cutting open his chest, is that right?
[1:01:19] Yeah.
[1:01:21] Okay.
[1:01:23] And then in one of the calls after he told me that, he took DMT.
[1:01:33] Now, do you know what his drug use was like over this time? Because a lot of this stuff seems like the effect of drugs.
[1:01:40] No, no. I didn't.
[1:01:43] So he took DMT after Egypt or in Egypt?
[1:01:49] After Egypt. And I would assume that probably before Egypt as well. And then my speculation is that he didn't go to Egypt. He probably took DMT thinking he was in Egypt and cut himself in his kitchen or something.
[1:02:06] Oh, wow. So that would explain how he got the money to go to Egypt. He didn't go to Egypt. Okay.
[1:02:11] I honestly think that's more realistic than the story that he gave me.
[1:02:18] Okay.
[1:02:22] So, yeah, talked to him for a couple times and got a text from his family that he was dead.
[1:02:29] And how long was that after the supposed or possible Egyptian trip?
[1:02:37] Several months. His family commuted him.
[1:02:41] Oh, so he did end up under mental health care professionals, right?
[1:02:45] After the first attempt, yeah. And they let him out.
[1:02:51] And they let him out?
[1:02:52] They let him out. And then his family let him... Moved to another state to work. And it wasn't like Massachusetts to Rhode Island close. It was almost across the country away to live by himself and work.
[1:03:16] So after he's had all these hallucinations, delusions of grandeur, disordered thinking, chaos, and one suicide attempt, he's institutionalized, they let him go, and his parents say something like, let's have you go live on your own on the other side of the country.
[1:03:33] Yep, yep.
[1:03:35] Wow. I mean, that wouldn't be my first instinct as a parent, but what, okay.
[1:03:43] And then he ended up dead. So I guess, you know, I guess calling, you know, the reason for the call was that I felt a lot of guilt because I, you know, I was one of his closest friends and I knew of a lot of this stuff. I witnessed it. And I felt like, so over time, like I said, our paths just diverged.
[1:04:12] Paths diverged. See, I mean, there's a whole bunch of stuff you're saying here that troubles me, but I don't want to interrupt. Right.
[1:04:20] What about that trouble with you?
[1:04:23] Well, everything. Your paths didn't diverge. He went crazy.
[1:04:28] Yeah.
[1:04:30] Right? I mean, you know, if a friend of mine commits a crime and goes to jail, I don't say our paths just diverged.
[1:04:38] Yeah.
[1:04:39] And what do you mean you were one of his closest friends? The guy didn't listen to you, didn't take any advice, didn't take any feedback, was annoyingly intrusive with his delusions. Was had no humility because look i i obviously can't speak to any of the biological things that are going on right i think i think we can understand that right but i'll tell you this there is an arrogance about mental instability again i'm assuming that it's not like a brain tumor or like i'm just talking about the the self-knowledge aspect of things so people who are delusional, when it's not biological in basis, are jerks. They can be complete a-holes, because you try to help them, and they just don't listen. It's arrogance, and it's appalling arrogance, in fact, because you're saying, hey, man, this is not the way to go. You're not some genius engineer. You've got to learn how to work with other people, and he's like, no, you're wrong, and the George and Mary, and it's just, this is arrogance, and they're insufferable.
[1:05:53] They're insufferable because there's no input. It's all just bleh, bleh, bleh, bleh, bleh. I, me, me, I, narcissism, craziness, and they get weirdly offended and angry if you just try and point out some basic fucking facts.
[1:06:11] Yeah, totally.
[1:06:13] So how are you close to this guy? He wasn't listening to you at all.
[1:06:23] It wasn't, well, it wasn't at a job. So about him, he didn't listen to me. And I felt like, and again, well, that was also after I left my isolation. I didn't have any friends, you know, for seven years. And at the beginning of our friendship, it felt like he was a good listener, a good friend. And after that, you know, it just...
[1:06:49] Yes, but then he started taking drugs and indulging in crazy thinking. Crazy thinking, again, if there's no biological basis, right? Crazy thinking is a selfish indulgence. Look, about 10 times a day, you and me and everyone have crazy ideas, right?
[1:07:09] Yes.
[1:07:11] And what we do is we say, well, I'm not doing that. Right. Right?
[1:07:19] Yeah.
[1:07:21] Well, that's not healthy. Well, that's not right. Well, that's not a good thing. That's not the way to go. That's not what I should be doing. Everybody has crazy ideas probably 10 times a day. And we don't have to get into details because they change from time to time. Everybody has their crazy ideas. And what do we do? We say, no, I'm not doing that. We have some discipline. We have some discipline, right?
[1:07:52] Yeah.
[1:07:54] And the crazy people, they just say, hey, what if I just indulge this? What if I am God? Or what if the Virgin Mary is talking to me? Like, they just start indulging this stuff. And it's a bad idea it's a really really really bad idea you can't let yourself just drift down this lazy river of just getting crazier and crazier oh.
[1:08:33] But the question here is that was there a point that i could communicate with them that those things were crazy.
[1:08:41] Well are you saying or are you asking could you save him.
[1:08:48] Yeah i am.
[1:08:49] Okay so let's look at that as a possibility so when does your gut tell you and it's a kind of a gut instinct here right when does your gut tell you that it was too late, Was it too late when he went to LA? It was Okay, so what about was it too late when he got fired from the engineering company?
[1:09:17] It was when I got extremely concerned Well.
[1:09:20] You were concerned and I assume you tried talking to him, right? Yeah Did he listen then? No And how long ago did he get fired from the engineering company? Just two years three years five years one year oh.
[1:09:37] How long ago uh it was a couple of years more or less a.
[1:09:41] Couple years yeah okay so a couple years ago was too late well what about going back further what about when he was going out with his girlfriend which was before then?
[1:09:55] It felt... He felt sensible when he was in that relationship.
[1:10:04] Sorry, he felt sensible?
[1:10:06] I felt that he was sensible. Like he wasn't going... He wasn't having these ideas videos every day and acting on them.
[1:10:23] Okay. So how long ago was he going out with his girlfriend?
[1:10:31] Um, it was three years.
[1:10:36] So three years ago, so three years ago he was okay.
[1:10:43] Yeah.
[1:10:45] Okay. And did he, and sorry, how, how, how long ago did you first know that he took the hard drugs like the LSD?
[1:10:56] It was before we met, and I have never taken any drugs before. I have never even had weed in my life, and it felt like... So I don't know how these things worked, especially at that point. So when he told me about LSD, he made it seem like a one-time experience, and I bought it.
[1:11:30] Okay and do you know if he had taken i mean you knew some of the others he took the dmt and other things right yeah okay and do you know if he took any other drugs not.
[1:11:44] That i know of.
[1:11:45] Okay but.
[1:11:47] I would not be surprised.
[1:11:47] You would not be surprised right okay Okay. So, with regards to the girlfriend, you tried to give him some good advice, right?
[1:11:59] Yeah.
[1:12:01] And did he listen?
[1:12:04] No, he was thinking about proposing.
[1:12:07] Okay. So, I thought you said that when he was dealing with his girlfriend, or he was in trouble with his girlfriend, that he was someone you could talk to. He took advice.
[1:12:21] He wasn't anyone, he wasn't someone that I could talk to, that he would, I guess, take advice. He would receive it, and then I wouldn't feel like I was on the, you know, a part of the conspiracy. So when I was talking to him about his girlfriend, he didn't see me as the enemy at the end of the conversation.
[1:12:47] Well, okay, but did he take advice?
[1:12:49] No.
[1:12:51] Okay. So, and you said you'd known him for how long in total?
[1:12:57] More or less 78 years.
[1:12:59] Seven or eight years. Okay. So as of three or four years ago, when he was with his girlfriend, he didn't take advice. And what about going further back? You said he was a good listener, which I guess is fine.
[1:13:09] But did he himself take advice at any point in your relationship with him?
[1:13:21] I'm trying to think.
[1:13:22] Oh no take your time it's a big question I don't mind you take your time.
[1:13:36] Yes. So when he, I guess, I guess the mind kind of comes into a little bit. So after he broke up with his girlfriend, um, I told him, or I advised them to stand up to, you know, one of his friends, uh, that chose his ex-girlfriend's side to just not talk to him. And then we crafted the message together, right? And then he took my advice to not hang out with people that were washy-washy when it came down to their relationship. So I guess the thing I'm seeing here is that it wasn't... Like, he would take advice on some things but not others. And then as time went on, he would, I mean, it would just be less and less that he would listen to me.
[1:14:34] Okay. Got it. So you don't have any particular memory of a time when he would take advice from you?
[1:14:46] No, no. It was all scattered, and sometimes he would. At the beginning, probably sometimes he would, sometimes he wouldn't. Okay. Yeah. And then towards the end, if I went against him or opposed, with an opposing opinion, I would be a part of the conspiracy.
[1:15:07] Right. So he would hang on to his delusions rather than listen to your advice, right?
[1:15:14] Yep.
[1:15:14] Okay. So he's a bad friend. Right. Right, because bad friends, they don't have to agree with you, but they certainly have to listen to you. And if you are a friend, then you cannot make your friend an enemy for giving you feedback, right? That's being a bad friend, because then that's flipping your friend from friend to enemy, right?
[1:15:44] Yeah, that's very interesting, but yeah.
[1:15:46] And isn't that kind of what happened? that he would say some crazy shit and you'd say, you know, that could be a little unstable. And he's like, fuck you, you're part of the conspiracy. Or I'm obviously paraphrasing a little, but he would turn aggressive, right?
[1:16:00] Yeah. He would get defensive.
[1:16:02] No, he would get aggressive.
[1:16:04] Yeah. He actually... You're not.
[1:16:07] Okay, so let's be clear. You know, we're not trying to damn the dead, but we're trying to get a clear-eyed view of things, right?
[1:16:14] Yeah.
[1:16:14] Okay. So let me ask you this. If you're a doctor and you tell someone for years he needs to stop smoking and he needs to lose weight because he's a fat smoker, right? And then he gets lung cancer and diabetes, right? Do you feel guilty?
[1:16:41] No.
[1:16:43] Why not?
[1:16:45] Because I tried.
[1:16:46] Well, all you can do is say stuff. You can't kidnap people. You can't lock them in the basement. You can't force them to be rational, right? It's a free will thing. We can't invade and possess and control other people, like slipping into their skin suit, like a T-60 in Fallout.
[1:17:07] You can't transform yourself into somebody else. All you can do is give them some feedback. Life is a continual series of saying in your mind, in your heart, in the world, well, that's what fucking happens when you just don't listen. Right? As a doctor, can you imagine the frustration? I mean, imagine being a doctor in America where like 60, 70% of the population is obese and you keep saying to people, you're too heavy, you need to lose weight. They're like, no, doc, I like my Big Macs or whatever the hell they're eating, right?
[1:17:51] Yeah, yeah.
[1:17:52] And it's like, yeah, it's frustrating. But that's what happens. I mean, I tell you this. I mean, I've been trying to reason with the world for 40 years. And the world's getting crazier. Now, I can't control whether anybody listens to a single syllable I say. I can't strap them down and play them my podcasts and have it write grooves in their brain that they are compelled to follow, right? All I can do is make the case, right? Does that make sense?
[1:18:31] It does.
[1:18:33] Now, hang on. No, no. You had a long old talk, right? So let me give you some feedback. Don't be your friend, right? So all you can do is make the case. Now, if your friend had listened to you, would he have been better off?
[1:18:54] I would hope so.
[1:18:56] Well, I'm sure he had. Did you ever say to him, hey, I listened to this philosophy show. It's got some good arguments.
[1:19:07] You know what the irony is? Well, at that point, before LA, I didn't get into your show until a couple of months ago. Oh, okay. But I did think about asking him to have a call-in.
[1:19:26] Oh, to have a call-in. Oh, okay.
[1:19:28] It was like a month ago. And in my head, I was orchestrating how that would play out. and I don't think it would have ended up good.
[1:19:43] Yeah, I probably, I don't know, obviously, because it's hard to say, but my gut sense tells me that I would have been unlikely to take that call in. Do you know why?
[1:20:01] How so?
[1:20:03] Well, I would be unlikely to take that call in because you can't reason with people who have severely disorganized thinking. Now, whether that disorganized thinking is a brain tumor, some underlying brain disorder that's physical, whether it could be the effects of too many drugs, whether it could be just they just want to pursue their own delusions and don't want to take any feedback, they're half in love with their own craziness or whatever it is, like for whatever reason, it seems to me unlikely that I would have taken that call, because I can only reason with people, who understand that reasoning is important and maybe there's a couple of things they can improve. But that was not this guy, right?
[1:20:52] Yeah.
[1:20:54] I mean, he didn't even think he had a problem, did he?
[1:20:57] No.
[1:20:59] Okay, so that's arrogance. So he thinks he's doing just fine, thank you very much, And anyone, anyone who tells him otherwise is a jerk that he's going to attack.
[1:21:20] Yeah.
[1:21:21] Do I have that sort of right?
[1:21:24] You do.
[1:21:25] Okay. So if that's who he is, then he won't listen to any feedback. Right. So then you're like a doctor trying to say to a patient, you should lose weight, and the patient says, oh, you're just part of big pharma, and you don't know anything, and you're just paid to do that, and you're totally correct. It's like, okay, well, I guess you'll just have to figure it out for yourself, right?
[1:21:57] Yeah.
[1:21:58] How can you reason with people who won't even admit that there's a problem? You can't. you can't.
[1:22:11] That's helping a lot with my, I guess, with my guilt. I always, you know, in the past week, I always questioned whether or not there was something I could have done.
[1:22:23] Well, he trained you into not talking to him.
[1:22:30] Like, this is important. He trained you to avoid talking to him because he preferred his delusions. Because in his delusions he didn't have to earn anything he didn't have to be humble he didn't have to submit to reason and evidence he didn't have to subjugate himself he didn't have to obey anyone he could just fantasize i'm too brilliant to be an engineer here it's like okay so you don't have to earn it you don't have to earn people's respect you can just yell at them that you're you're a genius you don't have to prove it you don't have like if he was a genius engineer a genius engineer like a 20x engineer how long do you think it would have taken for a competent boss to figure that one out not long yeah a couple of months you know my my daughter got her first job three weeks ago and she already has a promotion, because people in the business world are always looking for talent right, so he's got this vanity which is i'm great and it's like okay so then people should write they will recognize that. Don't sweat it, man. They will recognize it.
[1:23:39] But he's like, well, I'm not going to wait for them to recognize it because he wants to believe that he's brilliant. He doesn't want to prove that he's brilliant. Do you see what I mean?
[1:23:57] Yeah, yeah.
[1:24:00] He doesn't want to prove it. He doesn't want to prove it. He would rather think he's brilliant than actually have to prove it patiently in the marketplace.
[1:24:20] Yeah, it's a shame, isn't it?
[1:24:23] Well, it is what it is. I mean, I guess it's a shame, but all progress comes from humility, right?
[1:24:36] So I guess my question there, Stef, is that if you wake up one day and one of your friends that you felt was stable and suddenly pulls something like that, then what would you do in that situation? So if our roles were blipped, and yeah, one of your friends told you what he told me.
[1:25:04] Okay, sorry, because he told you a lot over seven years. What is it that you mean in particular?
[1:25:08] The job thing.
[1:25:11] Oh, so he said, I'm too brilliant as an engineer, and I'm going to tell them all of that, and then they fire him. Is that right?
[1:25:22] Yeah. Yeah, because at that point I was speechless.
[1:25:25] I'm sorry?
[1:25:26] At that point I was speechless. I didn't have anything to say. I said, yeah.
[1:25:30] No, you did have something to say. It's just that you were quite certain that he would not listen.
[1:25:38] Sure.
[1:25:39] Is that fair to say?
[1:25:40] That's very fair to say.
[1:25:42] Okay, so you absolutely knew. So what is it that you wanted to say to him if he had been in a state to listen?
[1:25:50] Um, that's not how the, you know, how the market works. You have been in the jungle.
[1:26:00] Just give me, give me the speech. What is it that you really, really wanted to say to the guy when he said, I'm too genius, I'm too much of a genius and they don't appreciate me, so I'm quitting.
[1:26:08] You just graduated. You have been in the jungle three months and you probably barely, um, know the ins and outs of your projects, and there's a lot more new skills to be had in a workplace when you're just fresh out of school. That's what I would say.
[1:26:34] Okay.
[1:26:35] That's what I would say.
[1:26:36] And you would say, I think you'd say something like also, if you're so confident that you're a genius, then show them. Don't tell them. You know if you say i want to be the lead singer in this band at some point they're gonna have to hear you sing right yeah so instead of just complaining that they just don't appreciate your singing just go up and sing some songs right, so show them how brilliant you are and stop talking about it because the more you talk about it and the more you fuss and fight about it the less people believe you right Yeah, So I would say stuff like that. And would he listen? Would he say, yes, you're right. I guess I need to show everyone how smart I am rather than just complaining about people not getting it.
[1:27:34] He wouldn't. Not at that point.
[1:27:37] Okay. So what would he have said at that point?
[1:27:44] You don't get it.
[1:27:45] You're in league with them. You don't understand my brilliance.
[1:27:48] Yeah, he would have said, yeah, you don't get it. I already showed him, and you're supposed to be on my side.
[1:27:59] Sorry, so he would accuse you of betraying him. Is that right?
[1:28:08] Yeah, because I did talk to him about his ex just two months before he passed away. And he was very defensive. It was, um, he was very triggered and he, you know, and I kept asking him, uh, what he felt after that relationship, you know, having, having, um, the ex turn on her, like turn on him like that. That having the mom not disclose the relationship to him, that stand up for him. And he kept saying, this is something that happened. It's not bad at the time. I don't think that it worked.
[1:28:56] Sorry, that was too fast at the end. Can you go over that again?
[1:29:00] He said, this is something that's happened. I don't think about it. It felt bad at the time, but now I don't think about it anymore.
[1:29:09] And do you think he was lying?
[1:29:13] Well, I mean, it definitely triggers some kind of a defensive reaction out of him, right? So I don't think that he processed a lot of that stuff. Of, and I don't, and at the end, I did try to talk to him about his parents, and he shut down the conversation immediately.
[1:29:37] So he didn't want to talk about his childhood, his history, his parents, or anything like that, right?
[1:29:44] No. No, I don't remember how he was like on these topics before he got fired from the job. But recently, this year, from what I can remember, he shut down these conversations pretty consistently.
[1:30:05] Okay. So you can't make him talk about things. So he didn't want to be vulnerable. He didn't want to be vulnerable. He preferred the vanity and the ego, I assume, of just being right, rather than admit, maybe, that there were things he didn't know, didn't understand, and needed to deal with.
[1:30:33] Why do you think I guess like you know well I first of all thank you for saying that I feel like you know my guilt, in this situation is being offset because I now that looking back I do feel like I try my best helping him but why do you feel like when it comes down to talking about these things people usually, get defensive right because.
[1:30:58] Okay so which things do you mean like like work stuff or family stuff parents oh parents okay got it yeah.
[1:31:07] Because he was not the only one and you.
[1:31:11] Know most people don't want to talk about uh childhood problems and parental problems sure i get that yeah.
[1:31:17] But why do you think that is because that's that's always been interesting to me.
[1:31:24] So why don't people want to talk about childhood trauma or problems or criticisms of their parents sure because well i think i know but he already told you that sorry to be annoying but he already told you that because he said uh what about his father so.
[1:31:40] He always felt fearful.
[1:31:41] Yeah he was terrified of his father so you're saying to him what we should do is do the thing that is most terrifying to you, and criticize your father.
[1:31:57] Sure, but at that point, he already criticized him, right? But what about...
[1:32:02] Okay, so hang on, hang on. So what did he say with regards to his father? What did he criticize about his father?
[1:32:13] That he was always absent and that he wouldn't listen. And he disciplined him by yelling. That's what I know of, by yelling and criticizing.
[1:32:26] Okay, and so did he talk to his father about this? Did he try talking to his father about this?
[1:32:37] I think he said he brought it up, and then the conversation got shut down.
[1:32:42] Okay, so he did not persist in this with his father?
[1:32:46] No.
[1:32:47] Okay, so he didn't want to talk about it. Because he had failed to deal with the things with his father.
[1:33:00] Oh, but what would be so difficult to say, I am, you know, if you want to talk about it, I am. I'm out, and I'm going to try to make it on my own, which was essentially, I think, what triggered L.A.
[1:33:16] Well, but it sounds like, I mean, oh, it sounds like that maybe he got money from his parents, unless he didn't go to Egypt, as you say, and that was all just a sort of delusion or a fantasy.
[1:33:29] Yeah.
[1:33:30] Okay. So there's a couple of reasons why. So it could be that, so when he was growing up, you said his family's wealthy. So when he was growing up, did he take vanity or status from his parents' wealth?
[1:33:47] No. I remember very clearly. I saw the car that he was driving and then, it wasn't it wasn't like it was a pretty beat up car and then I went to his home and his home was you know this very fancy nice house and I was like why you drive a really beat up car and then I had no idea that your family was well off so he did not take part of any status, now Now.
[1:34:17] With regards to his religious beliefs, did he submit his religious beliefs to anybody else's review? Did he sit down with a priest and say, here's what I believe? Or did he check whether his beliefs were in accordance with something in the Bible?
[1:34:37] He always had a way to twist, I don't want to use the word twist, but anything that the Bible said he could use to support his narrative. So I don't know if you said that.
[1:34:53] Okay, but did he subject his beliefs to any external standard? It or was it just like i'm just really good at making stuff up so that's what i'm gonna do.
[1:35:12] Not that i know of not that i mean he would he would talk talk about his he would go to church but i don't i don't know i.
[1:35:20] Wasn't did he did he go to a priest and say i got this vision of the of the virgin mary i obviously don't i want to make sure i'm not crazy so can we can we talk about this not.
[1:35:31] That i know of right.
[1:35:33] So when you are afraid to subject your ideas to objective and external analysis you tend to go crazy like on our own we go nuts we are social animals and what that means everyone thinks that's like chatting and sharing food. It's like, no, no, we share thinking. We're a hive mind. We cannot get to truth on our own because our capacity for self-delusion is so strong. And self-delusion is great because it means that we can build a tower that doesn't exist in the world and we can learn how to make and fly airplanes, all the things that deny our direct sense data and reality, right? So I'm a big fan of denying the evidence of the census and having, in a sense, delusions of grandeur, right? So, I mean, I wanted to create this big philosophy conversation and I've, you know, worked really hard to do it and I'm very proud and happy at what I have done. However, I can't just do it on my own. I need people in my life to talk to things about. I need a community of people who will give me pushback about things that I'm wrong about.
[1:36:50] You know, I will, if I've got a theory that proves secular ethics, I'm not just going to say, well, I've done it and not tell anyone about it. I'm going to do podcasts about it. I'm going to do debates about it. I'm going to do all kinds of crazy stuff, right?
[1:37:08] Yeah.
[1:37:09] And what I'm going to do is put it out there in the world. Because I want to be correct. I want to be accurate. And this guy, like, if he's such a brilliant engineer, what he should do, of course, is he should go and start an engineering company. If he's so brilliant that he's, and listen, I can understand, like, if you just feel like you're brilliant and people don't appreciate you. And like, hey, I mean, I get that. I've got no problem with people doing that. I think that's a good idea. I mean, I had a software programming job in COBOL, and I felt that I could do better if I was in charge of software. And so I went and co-founded a company and became the chief technical officer and did really, really well. Wow. So I was right. I was not being used in the right way in my job, so I started a job. Does that make sense?
[1:38:19] Sure.
[1:38:21] So that's what he should have done, right? Does that make sense? He didn't want to do that, did he? He didn't want to put his vanity to the test. Sorry, go ahead.
[1:38:35] I actually asked him why he didn't go out and start his own company. He said a lot. He knew that he could do it, but he wouldn't because it would take too much time and he valued connections.
[1:38:55] It would take too much time and what?
[1:38:58] And he valued connections.
[1:39:01] What does that mean? Value connections? What does that mean?
[1:39:04] Like he would Like it would take too much Too much of his time And he wouldn't have time to Interact with people So it's very Sorry he thinks.
[1:39:14] That if he's running a company That doesn't involve interacting with people.
[1:39:17] Yeah But that's false 180 hours a week working You know That kind of No no but.
[1:39:26] He's wrong Because to run a business Is constantly interacting with people, You've got employees, you've got suppliers, you've got customers, you've got investors, you've got board members, you've got lawyers, you've got accountants, you're constantly interacting with them. It's just false.
[1:39:45] Yeah.
[1:39:48] So he had vanity, and he refused, he refused to put it to the test. Now, as to why he refused to put it to the test, well, in my view, I don't know the guy, right? So I can't say this for him, for sure. But in my particular view, well, that's just cowardice. It's cowardice and vanity. You know everybody has known at some point somebody in their life who talks big and never delivers oh i could do that i could pass that degree i i could beat that guy i'm smarter than this guy i i'm more i'm way more productive than this guy and it's like well stop talking about it you know like all the people who say um hey man it's so easy to write a pop song it's ridiculous You're like, listen how bad these pop songs are. I could write a better song in five minutes, right? Then go do it. Stop talking about it and go do it. So he's just a big talking, vainglorious guy who chickened out of actually putting his big talk to the test?
[1:41:06] Yeah.
[1:41:08] I mean, is that unfair? fair no.
[1:41:12] No it and then it it actually makes some sense why he pursued a complete different career.
[1:41:21] You mean the acting thing yeah well yeah because he genuinely thought he was a brilliant actor right.
[1:41:29] He did he.
[1:41:30] Thought he was a brilliant engineer he thought he was a brilliant theologian he thought he was a brilliant relationship with the virgin mary he thought he was the most humble fucking guy on the planet. He thought he was a genius actor. And the world said, Ah, we don't agree. You're an asshole. We're going to fire you. You're not a good actor. Or you're impossible to work with. So go enjoy your cardboard box under the bridge. I mean, I thought, hey, I think I could be a good public speaker. So I trained, I practiced, I read books, I gave speeches, and then I filmed them and played them back to see my gestures and if it made sense. And I worked like crazy to become a good public speaker, and then I went out and gave speeches. I didn't just tell everyone I'm such a great public speaker and not do it. That's pathetic. And it's annoying as hell.
[1:42:34] Yeah.
[1:42:35] And then when you try to say to people, you know, can we get some actual, like, hey, I'd like to, oh, I've written this great, I'm a great songwriter, this and that and the other. I love writing music, and it's like, oh, great, can we hear a song? How dare you? You know, that's just bullshit. You know, like, I thought I could be a good writer of fiction and dialogue and characters and stories and all of that. So I sat down and wrote a bunch of books, right? I've written, like, I don't know, seven or eight novels or whatever, right? So just do it. And then if people say, hey, can I read them? I'm like, yes, you can. In fact, I'd really love it if you did. I don't just talk about how great I am and then not do anything and then shit on anyone who asks for any kind of proof or evidence or wants to get involved or wants to read what I've written and done and like, ew, that's gross.
[1:43:37] Yeah, now that you put it this way, it's obvious. That's what he was doing.
[1:43:44] And do you know why he died?
[1:43:50] His family said that he took his life.
[1:43:52] No, no, I know that. But why?
[1:43:57] I honestly think that he, that, you know, all the psychedelics, you know, DMT and LSD was just, was him escaping reality. And I think, I don't think he was sober when he died. That's my speculation.
[1:44:20] Mm-hmm. Now, of course, I don't know. But if this idea of vanity and megalomania and this vainglorious stuff and all of that, if this has any validity, then he probably didn't run out of life. He just ran out of lies. Right? So he said, I'm great. I'm fantastic. I'm so amazing. I'm a genius. I'm this, that, or the other, right? And he tries all these different things, and at some point, he has to say, but I'm not. I'm not. And that's the ego, right? But the more you focus on lying and making things up and being arrogant and then attacking anyone who asks for any kind of evidence, right? The more you lie about that kind of stuff, the harder it is when reality breaks through. Because reality breaks through and says, the only thing you're great at is lying. And then what? I mean, then what?
[1:45:48] And then you've got to escape.
[1:45:50] Well, then you've got to bow your head down. You've got to deal with your vanity. You've got to go through whatever humiliation, underlying humiliation the vanity was covering up, right? And you've got to go apologize to people, right?
[1:46:09] And you've got to say, listen, you know, you all tried to tell me for years. You've tried to tell me, and not only did I not listen, but I actually attacked and was harsh and horrible to you about it. Like, how terrible is that? So rather than being some super special genius that the Virgin Mary takes a special interest, I was just an obnoxious liar who aggressively punished anyone who tried to help me. Like, good luck with that, man. That does not happen. People who commit that much to unreality, they don't turn around. There's a price to be paid, right? There's a price to be paid for being a jerk. And very few people are willing to pay that price to unjerk themselves, so to speak.
[1:46:59] I mean, I've never seen it. Like, I had a friend when I was younger who said, he said, well, I'm having trouble getting girls to go out with me, and it's just because I'm 5'7". And he had all this research, he looked up, oh my gosh, you know, like, you wouldn't believe how much short guys have to overcompensate because they're not tall guys, right? And there was some show where the women had to choose between the tall and the short guy, and they were only willing to go out with the short guy if he was like a surgeon and a CEO and a multimillionaire and all that kind of stuff, right?
[1:47:37] Yeah. Yeah.
[1:47:40] And it just got exhausting. It's like, okay, so if women don't date short guys, why are they short guys? Why hasn't it been weeded out of the gene pool? So, I mean, the actual fact was not that he couldn't get girls because he was short. The actual fact was he couldn't get the girls he wanted because he was short. But there were girls who would have been less attractive or had some deficiency in attractiveness like if he was a five he wanted a ten and then he would say well the world is unfair because i'm a five and i can't get a ten and it's like the world is not unfair, the world is not unfair at all if you're five you get a five if you're an eight you get an eight if you're two you get a two it's not unfair at all you just have to adjust i said and i said to him I said, that's like me saying the world is unfair, because some people get paid $1,000 an hour, and I don't.
[1:48:46] If you want some i don't know uber hot girlfriend then you know he had a little tummy and and he's had a bad haircut and his teeth were slightly yellow and it's like you know then then get a better haircut learn how to dress better lose the weight get muscular uh get your teeth whitened like at least be more attractive than you are like don't give up on being attractive and then and complain that girls don't find you attractive because they're just, absolutely terrible people who only care about height. Does that make sense?
[1:49:22] It does. I am, well, I'm thinking about the listening, right? Because it, at the end of the day...
[1:49:30] And I'm bald! I could say the same, women don't go for bald guys! I could say the same thing. Sorry, go ahead.
[1:49:37] Yeah, exactly. So the question is Is that, well, I mean, your friend obviously listened to you, right?
[1:49:43] No, he never listened to me.
[1:49:47] Interesting.
[1:49:48] No, he never listened to me. And I ended the friendship, I don't know, probably about 15 years ago.
[1:49:55] Oh, wow.
[1:49:56] And yeah, no, it's just like, forget it. It's too exhausting and it's too depressing. Because he just wasn't telling, I mean, he was a brilliant guy and I got a lot of fantastic ideas. I have no regrets about the relationship. I got a lot of great ideas from the guy. But he just wouldn't. I just got exhausted from him complaining rather than adjusting his expectations.
[1:50:24] Yeah, I, well, I am, so I'm listening to this and I am reflecting on, you know, at the end of the day on the topic of listening, what I can do to do better at listening, right? And what is that? I am reflecting from my own experience, and there are times that I agreed with someone's opinions, suggestions, and there were times that I wouldn't take their opinions because I thought they were bonkers.
[1:51:01] And I guess the question here is that how do you think that someone can find like a middle ground, a sweet spot in between the two? Because obviously you can't just go around.
[1:51:15] Okay, hang on, hang on, hang on. I appreciate that you want to get to that part, but let me ask you, how do you feel about your friend?
[1:51:34] This is a very good question, I feel like he I feel like he chose to he you know chose the outcome and he had help whether it's from, me or more or less from his family family, he had help, and he chose not to snap out of it.
[1:52:05] Well, I doubt he got much help from his family.
[1:52:09] Yeah.
[1:52:11] Okay. So he had built an ego on falsehood, on vanity, on the appearance of excellence rather than the grim, dark hard work of achieving excellence. Thanks for watching. And that is not a sustainable model. You cannot, you know, this is a biblical saying, you can't build your house upon sand, right?
[1:52:37] Yeah.
[1:52:38] This is not a sustainable model. And you either get up, wake up to reality, or catastrophe results. Now, the catastrophe does not have to be suicide in particular. The capacity can be any number of things so for my friend the um for my friend the capacity, or the tragedy was that he never dated never got married never had kids and it just got too depressing now it didn't get too depressing because he decided not, to get married and have kids. That's not the problem. If he'd have said, you know what, the juice isn't worth the squeeze, I'm just not going to get married and have kids, I don't want to, I've looked into women, my mother was blah blah blah, my dad was blah blah blah, okay, that's fine. But saying, well, I want to, it's just that women are too shallow. And it's like, well, that's an insult to my wife. Right?
[1:53:51] Yeah, there's a level of, externalizing.
[1:53:56] Well yeah it's an insult to my wife, And, you know, as it turns out, I have a daughter. And I am not pleased at him insulting women when I have two wonderful females in my life. So if he says, I don't want to do it, women are fine, I just don't want to do it, okay, I can live with that, I think it's a bit of a sad life, but I can live, at least it's being honest. But if he's saying, well, women are just terrible, and of course this is quite a common thing, the, oh, women are just terrible, and it's like, okay, well, then I don't want you in my life because the women I know are wonderful. And so you're just prejudiced. I mean, sexist, right?
[1:54:37] Yeah.
[1:54:39] But he, and once you dig yourself in too deep, you can't get back out. So he has, he had a level of unreality, or, to put it another way, he blamed everyone else for his own deficiencies. He blamed women for his own deficiencies. He was afraid that women would reject him. And so it's just, you know, it's not a massively complicated psychological phenomenon. It's just called sour grapes, right? Which is, well, I can't have it. Oh, I don't, I'm too chicken to get it. And therefore it is now bad. I won't go through the process of you know he had vanity right he had a lot of vanity and he had some reason for it I mean I'm not I've no I think pride is better than vanity vanity is when you rate yourself too highly pride is when you recognize your just achievements, but he had a lot of vanity and he thought he was you know great fantastic and special special, and he did not want to go through the sorting process of figuring out where he actually stood in the pecking order.
[1:55:52] And what I mean by that is he didn't, and I know this sounds like it's about my friend. It's not, right? It's about your friend. So he didn't want to find out where he actually stood in the pecking order.
[1:56:00] So it's rather, it's much better to dream you can do great things than to actually go out, try and fail and figure out where you stand in the pecking order. So he actually didn't want to go and find out what kind of woman he could attract, because it would be a short, pudgy woman with bad hair and yellow teeth, right?
[1:56:18] And he would be like, oh gosh, that's me. So people who don't want accurate feedback on themselves tend to stay lost in the world of vanity, where they are, I don't know if you've ever read The Secret Life of Walter Mitty. It's about a guy who's a boring little accountant but he has all these fantasies about being a secret agent and a an elite swat member of a marine and all this nonsense right and he'd rather do that than actually achieve anything he'd rather just daydream and fantasize and people do this with video games or you know they imagine they're lethargics because they can dial up some pornography on the internet or something like that and it's it's tough it's it's a tough humiliating thing at times to try and figure out where you actually stand in the pecking order what kind of income can you get what kind of influence can you have are you in fact a brilliant engineer well it's a lot easier to brag about being a brilliant engineer and then when someone says shouldn't you do some brilliant engineering no i'm going to be an actor i'm going to be a brilliant actor i'm going to make a fortune and it's like okay well that's not working out well i'm going to go and do something else like it's just i'm now going to go go and climb the pyramids and i you know if he didn't go climb the pyramids he might have just said he did it because he wants to sound special and important and and if you're not feeling important and you you're kind of a loser and it sounds to me like in my view your friend would be kind of a loser i mean with huge potential which is the worst kind of loser that there is and then you say well.
[1:57:46] The virgin mary is taking a special interest in me and then she thinks i'm just so great and and she's you know she tells me all this that and the other and and then it's like well i okay i I failed at this, I failed at that, I failed at I got fired from here, and failed as an actor, but it's because I just want to build a community, right? And it's like, no, you're just frightened to try. You're frightened to try and figure out if...
[1:58:15] You're right or wrong about your brilliance. You're frightened to try. I get that. I sympathize with that. I understand that. You know, when I first began to think, hey, maybe I have something really spectacular to offer the world in the realm of philosophy, I mean, I was very doubtful of all of that because it just seemed so ridiculously improbable that I would have a lot to offer in the realm of philosophy. You know, some, you know, broken down kid from a broken down welfare house and all of that. And so I was, you know, I was very doubtful. And I thought, well, you know, I'm just going to give it a shot. I mean, obviously get a lot of influence from Socrates in this way where they say he's the wisest guy and he says, well, no, I'm not. I'm going to go and disprove it. So I thought, okay, I'm going to give it a shot and I'm going to be completely open to the possibility that I suck. Right?
[1:59:05] Yeah.
[1:59:05] I'm kidding. And so, you know, I worked as hard as I could to produce works of philosophical value, and I put them out there in the world, and they got punched up and beaten up and driven over and spiked and shot and thrown off a cliff and set fire to, and at the end, they're still standing. So, it's like, okay, so that's good. Okay, so I'll just take these basic principles and expand them here. Okay, non-aggression principle. Okay, what's the biggest violation of the non-aggression principle that we can do the most about? Well, that's child abuse, clearly, so I'll do that. You know, like, it's just a matter of, I'm putting things to the test to find out if my self-assessment is valid or not. My self-assessment was, maybe I can offer something in the realm of philosophy, if I work really hard and I'm willing to take a lot of feedback. Maybe.
[1:59:51] So, I gave it everything I've got. I had some, a lot of successes, of course, some failures, as is natural and inevitable whenever you try anything of importance. And so i was willing to subject myself to the test of the marketplace and so people you know called me up and and called me all kinds of names and i mean just happened the other day i was doing a show on telegram they called me up and oh you're just terrible guy and you don't understand this and you don't understand that and you know when i remember when i put out the art of the argument people are like oh it's embarrassing he doesn't even understand basic categories of logic but nobody could tell me exactly where i was wrong uh so you just put your stuff out there and you get punched and beaten up a lot, rather than thinking you're the next Bruce Lee, how about you go out and just join a dojo and learn some martial arts? But that's hard. That's hard. That's a lot of work. That's painful. I mean, some of the work that I've done, it's been painful to be hit back on and lied about and slandered and attacked and misrepresented and deplatformed. Yeah, it's been painful at times. And my alternative is what? To just sit there daydreaming about what a great thinker I am? Well, that would be embarrassing. I mean, if I'm the kind of guy, like if I think I can do something, I'll go and do it.
[2:01:11] And if I find out I can do it, great. If I find out I can't do it, also great, because then I don't waste my time on things that I'm not great at. And of course, the number of things I've tried that I've not been great at has been, you know, probably 50 to 100 various things I've tried over the course of my life that I'm not particularly good at. So I abandon those and I try and focus on the things that I am good at. But I want to put myself to the test. I want to put myself to the test and see what's left standing after people take the most treasured aspect of yourself, you put out there in the world, and there's a large number of people who will just beat the living shit out of everything you treasure, and that's fine.
[2:01:54] Because that's how you know if it stands the test of trolls, right? There's the test of time, and then there's the test of trolls.
[2:02:00] And what I have done has passed the test of trolls, and where the trolls or the attackers or the criticizers have had valid points I adjust and reformulate and you know people had some criticisms of how UPB was formulated so I rewrote it for essential philosophy and I improved it and I appreciated that so I mean if you're going to get into the hurly-burly of success and failure that's a whole lot harder and more painful than just taking some drugs and daydreaming that you're a genius but the problem with taking drugs and daydreaming you're a genius is at some point you have to look at your life and say, well, I am actually living under a bridge.
[2:02:42] And that's really, really, really hard. Because then you have to say, wait a minute, I've been thinking I'm a genius for like 10 years. Maybe I'm not.
[2:02:57] Maybe I'm just a braggart. Maybe I'm just vainglorious. Maybe I'd just rather talk and talk and talk than actually do anything measurable and achievable. And so when you come and say, you know, hey, you're just new to the business, give it some time and show them that you're a great engineer. Don't just yell at them that you're a great engineer and too good for them, right? Show them you're a great engineer. you know you know people your father knows people in the company i'm sure that, good things will come out of it you just got to be a little patient and you know if you are such a genius it's going to take people a while to figure it out like very few geniuses except maybe in the arts but certainly in engineering and and certainly in philosophy there are almost no geniuses who are truly appreciated in their own time so you're just going to have to be patient and but when you say that you're telling him that he needs to put his vanity to the test of empirical evidence, right if you think you're a great painter at some point you've got to paint some stuff and try and sell it, I mean you just you have to try and people don't they a lot of people they just hate and recoil from the test of truth truth.
[2:04:21] I mean, when I was younger, it was called the Canadian girlfriend, right? The Canadian girlfriend of like, yeah, I've got, you know, some kid who's 14 or was at summer camp and doesn't, you know, have any, doesn't ask any girls to dance and can't get a date. And he's like, no, no, no, because I've got this girlfriend in Canada. And this is back before you could just check, right? I mean, because this is like you'd write letters or have phone calls. So it's the Canadian girlfriend. It's unverifiable. and and oh she's super pretty and you know they'd be some picture that could be of anyone right it's a canadian girlfriend and we all think we're more attractive than we are because, attraction has to do with getting used to things sometimes and we're all used to our own faces so we all think we're more attractive than we are we all think we're better singers than we are we all think that you know so we all i mean and put it to the test you know if i think i'm a decent and sing? Or what happens when I get up with the microphone? Does everyone flee to the bathroom at karaoke night? Or do they lean forward and give me some applause? I don't know. Give it a try. But putting things to the empirical test is a blow to vanity, and it's a lot easier to get high and daydream that you're a genius. Or think that you're a creative genius because you're on drugs and you can see the smoke tendrils of Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon drifting through the room, rather than actually writing some music or doing something of your own. And so I would imagine that he just ran out of bullshit.
[2:05:47] And again, I don't know. I don't know the guy, but that would be my first guess.
[2:05:53] Yeah. Yeah, that's a very interesting revelation. It makes a lot of sense.
[2:06:06] And you can't make people accept the truth. You can't. All you can do is try and tell them the truth. And there's a huge number of people. You know, it's that old meme. It's like you're arguing with boomers or leftists. It's like arguing with the television. It can't listen and it doesn't care what you say. And so when people just reject the truth, I mean, you have to, I mean, you can follow them down into whatever hell awaits them. The hell can be sterility, futility, homelessness, suicide, escalating addiction. It can be abusive relationships, any number of things. But it always ends badly. Lying to yourself always ends badly.
[2:06:54] And it ended very badly with your friend, but then he lied a lot. Now, again, this is assuming no physical substrate to, you know, brain damage, and maybe the drugs were bad, but even if the drugs messed up his head, I mean, it wasn't like he was totally normal before that, and he still made the choice to take the drugs. But if you try and tell someone the truth and they attack you, get out. Get out. It ends so badly.
[2:07:23] I mean, go watch a street car named Desire to see Blanche DuBois, one of the most famous characters in 20th century theatre, who lies to herself. She lies to herself. She lies to everyone. She has delusions of grandeur and beauty and class and all of that, right? She was the town whore who just can't abide a grape that's not been peeled. You know, it's just, she tries to come across as all virginal and all of that, and she was like the town whore. Oh, and she also had sex with her students when she was a school teacher, and she married a homosexual and drove him to suicide with her attacks. So yeah, just a real monster coming across as this. And all of these lies, she goes crazy at the end, and she ends up being institutionalized. And that's true if you just lie and and it sounds like your friend lied a lot, and wouldn't take any course correction wouldn't listen okay well then what i do now after and i haven't had anyone in my life like this in years and years and years because i can't stand vanity i think vanity is just absolutely horrible vanity is like one of the worst demon sins you can get lodged in your breast. And if he's just too good for everyone and too brilliant and he's just going to go and be this fantastic actor and make a fortune and it's like, oh, shut up. Just go do some fucking regional theater and see if anybody likes you being on the stage. Start small.
[2:08:50] Yeah.
[2:08:51] And be patient. You know, I was writing philosophical manifestos in my teens and I didn't get to be public until over 20 years later. Be patient. It takes a long time. to be good at things. It takes a long time, particularly in philosophy, but even in engineering. I mean, to be a brilliant and genius engineer, to be the next Edison, is extremely rare, which doesn't mean it's impossible, but you should be skeptical of yourself. I really, really dislike people who are like, oh, I'm so great, I'm so this, I'm so that, and they do it in various ways. And it's like, no, the greater you think you are, the more skeptical you should be about it because the odds are so tiny. I mean, the number of genius engineers is so rare.
[2:09:36] It's like somebody saying, well, I'm absolutely going to win the lottery. It's like, well, no, I mean, you might, but you should be skeptical about it. And you might be some genius. It's possible. The number of really important geniuses is very rare. Maybe you are some massive genius, but the odds are very small, and you should be skeptical of it, and you should be very hostile to the idea, because it can make you feel special without having to do anything. So what you should do if you think you're some big old genius is you should put your your best effort forward, and put it out in the world, let it get beaten up, try to defend it, and see if it stands. But that's a painful and difficult process. And I would imagine that deep down, your friend knew that he had significant intelligence, but he didn't want to put anything to the test. And after a while, you just run out of bullshit.
[2:10:28] That's what's so addicting, isn't it? Something that you're special and don't want to put in the hard work.
[2:10:34] Well, and as as kids, as babies and toddlers and little kids, we should absolutely, our parents should think we're special and we shouldn't have to earn it. Because that's a pair bond, right?
[2:10:44] Yeah.
[2:10:44] So my guess is that he had a big hole in us, based on parental indifference, he had a big hole in us in his heart and he just filled it with a bunch of flash bullshit fireworks to try and pretend he was special when he knew deep down he wasn't and then that just caught up with him eventually. Vanity is the shaky structure built on top of insecurity, right?
[2:11:10] Yeah, yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense.
[2:11:14] And there's nothing you can do about that. I mean, you can tell people the truth. You know, it's the old saying, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, right? You can tell people the truth, you cannot make them listen. And if they attack you, and this is just what you need to get out of this, is going forward in life, tell people the truth. If they attack you, get out. Because you're just, You're joining a tragedy in the making. You are going to lose so much happiness and peace of mind and contentment and security, and you're going to have these chaos agents in your life in some death spiral gripping your shoelaces, dragging you down. Like when people deny the truth, I'm out. I'm out.
[2:11:52] Yeah, that's what I respond on. Thanks, Joe.
[2:11:55] All right, man. Will you keep me posted about how it's going?
[2:11:58] Definitely. Definitely. Thanks so much again.
[2:12:00] You're welcome, man. Have a great night.
[2:12:02] Have a good night.
[2:12:02] Bye. Thank you.
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