2023, Stefan Molyneux
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0:00:00 Introduction and Appreciation for the Show
0:03:11 Seeking Help for Resolving Conflict with Narcissistic Wife
0:07:22 Recent Realization of Wife's Narcissistic Traits
0:11:23 Meeting and Drawn to Wife's Unusual Traits and Similarities
0:13:38 Trying to Have Kids and Facing Obstacles
0:23:59 Silent Treatment and Deposit Ultimatum
0:28:03 The Need for Validation and Excitement in Relationships
0:34:06 The Struggle of Balancing Career and Marriage
0:38:27 The Unwillingness to Change and Accept Responsibility
0:42:12 The Inability to Cure Narcissism and Its Effect on Relationships
0:45:53 Narcissists' Ability to Bond with Others
0:52:43 Questioning the severity of child abuse
1:04:13 Bedtime Routine and Change in Living Arrangements
1:15:18 Time Management and Charitable Activities
1:19:01 The Role of the Psychologist in the Marriage
1:25:15 Conflicting Views on Responsibility
1:31:00 Miscommunication and interruption
1:38:56 Reflecting on past conflicts and taking responsibility
1:43:23 Discussing the need for change and addressing blame in the relationship
1:47:15 Feeling Used in the Relationship
1:52:22 Conflicting Priorities: Time with Wife vs. Personal Interests
1:55:11 Prioritizing Children's Needs Over Self-Pity Parade
1:59:01 Destructive Standoff: Putting Children's Well-being at Risk
2:00:22 Impact on Children: Consequences of a Broken Marriage
2:02:18 Lack of Leadership and Virtue in Marriage
2:06:33 Appreciating Honesty and Pushback
In this episode, we have a heartfelt conversation with someone who is struggling with their marriage and their spouse's behavior. I want to stress to them the significance of not allowing their spouse to dictate their actions and values. It is crucial for them to become a leader and take responsibility for doing what's right, even if their spouse may see it as a victory.
I remind them that they cannot let petty individuals control their commitment to virtue and what is best for their children. By improving themselves and showcasing their dedication to the marriage, they can find closure, and their heart will be open to new possibilities.
I emphasize the need to put an end to the battle and commit to doing what is right, making it difficult for their spouse to bully them. I share a personal anecdote about someone who once tried to act superior towards me, but their behavior didn't affect me since the evidence of my accomplishments spoke for itself.
It is imperative to shore up one's own ethics and commitment to doing what is best for their children, so that bullying from their spouse will not have an impact. The main speaker strongly believes that if their spouse decides to end the marriage and their bullying still affects them, it is crucial to continue doing the right thing and grow in self-confidence.
I caution against allowing their spouse to dictate their moral standards and highlight the importance of outgrowing being bullied. By maintaining genuine pride in their choices, they can approach the end of the marriage in a civilized manner.
I explain to the speaker that their children need to see their spouse's true character and unrepentant bullying, so they are not negatively influenced. I reassure them that their honesty and pushback against my advice is vital for their growth, and I appreciate their honesty.
I encourage them to follow my advice and promise to support them throughout the process. Additionally, I offer to speak to their spouse if they are interested in resolving the situation.
In this episode, we discuss the importance of not letting a spouse dictate actions and values. We emphasize the need to become a leader and do what's right, despite challenges. By improving oneself and prioritizing the well-being of children, closure and new possibilities can be found. It is crucial to maintain integrity and not be bullied, even if the marriage ends. We offer support and suggest addressing the spouse's behavior for the sake of children.
spouse, dictate, actions, values, leader, challenges, improve, prioritize, well-being, children, closure, possibilities, integrity, bullied, marriage, support, behavior
Transcript
[0:00] First of all, I really appreciate you having me, and I started to listen to your show for a long time ago, and it really helped me a couple of times, so thank you so much for what you do, first of all. Glad to help.
I'm married for quite some time, so marriage is more than 10 years, but we were living together, so it's about 15 years we are together.
We have two kids, five and seven years old.
And we have a pretty good marriage, I would say, except for one thing.
The way we handled the conflicts.
[0:43] And it was really kind of strange from the first sight.
So the small conflict escalated to the very significant proportion, and it was like something really trivial and not really worth discussing at the first place, but it turned out to be a huge problem.
And one of the biggest issues that this small thing started to bring more and more serious problem and we started from discussing something like, I don't know, you step on my foot, to that you spoil my life, very quickly.
And it happened sometimes, although it started to happen very, very early in our relationship.
[1:39] But it started to happen more often and I don't know exactly what helped me, but I started to go to the therapy, I started to be more interested in how relationships should work, and started to notice the thing that's, and usually how this conflict happens, that my wife brings so much to the table, to this conflict, so I started to feel that I probably did something wrong, even if I was offended in the first place.
[2:17] And that's how usually conflict is solved, most of the time.
But after talking with... I'm sorry, so you admit that you're wrong or you think that you're wrong, and that's how the conflict is resolved?
Kind of, yeah. So the usual, what probably is important, the usual conflict started with my wife offended me somehow.
So conflict didn't start when I offended her. So it was the case, but my behavior was different.
I was trying to understand, okay, what was I doing wrong?
And usually, we didn't have any significant fight over the problem when I offended her.
Everything started when she offended me, and I started to tell her about that.
And that's where the conflict started.
[3:11] And yes, and usually they resolved with a very interesting way.
It's nice that you notice it. That I admitted that it wasn't my problem.
[3:25] So you would resolve it by you admitting it wasn't your problem or you were saying what it was your problem.
Okay, so She does something to offend you.
You get upset. There's a fight and then you say I'm sorry Kind of There is a huge part in the middle.
So in the middle of this fight turn out that I offended you multiple times in the past and There are so many things she is I feel bad about that still.
And that's where I started to think, okay, maybe that was a pretty big thing.
And what happened before is the kind of the overweight what's happening now.
And yes, that's how the confluence is solved. Okay. And how can I best help?
[4:20] So, let me finish, like, where did it come from?
So then, after a while, I realized that what she's doing, called DARVO, denial, attack, reverse victim, and offender, then I realized that it's a pretty common narcissistic trait.
I started to learn what does narcissism actually mean.
And I didn't know that there is a covert narcissist. And yeah, then I realized that my wife is pretty close to the term narcissist.
And it means that that's her natural behavior.
And what you can help me. So I have a kind of, I'm kind of stuck, right?
Okay, so I understand that my wife is an narcissist, and I cannot...
I probably cannot change it, right? And there is a...
We have two kids, we have a marriage, and I should either break this marriage, to resolve this problem, or I should keep suffering.
[5:41] And I don't like both of these things. So I'm calling, maybe you can give me some ideas how can I resolve this problem? How can I make this choice?
Or maybe there are other options?
[6:00] Okay, so I mean if you say your wife is a narcissist and you can't change that, I'm not sure what other options there are.
I mean if you can't change the person you either have to not be in the relationship or accept them as they are. I mean, that's a binary proposition, right?
There's no magic wand here, so the only variable is, I mean, there are only two variables in any relationship, right, your behavior and her behavior, right?
Maybe I didn't see any options. I didn't see something. I don't see something.
That's, maybe you can help me to see. Well, no, it's easy to know if someone's capable of change.
Right, if someone's capable of change, they admit that there's a problem.
Oh yes, yeah, she doesn't, she doesn't admit she... So she doesn't think that there's a problem, she thinks that the only problem is you, right? Yes, exactly. Right.
Now, why do you think, you've been together, what, 15 years?
Yeah, I would say so. Okay, so when did you first start to think she might be, she might have this mental problem, this narcissism as you say, when did you think she might have that?
Very recently, actually, it was, it happened, so, like.
[7:17] I realized it's narcissism about several weeks ago.
[7:22] Because I didn't know. Oh, several weeks ago, okay, so for 15 years, you didn't think there was a problem, because you said you had a pretty good marriage.
So for 15 years, you didn't think there was a problem, and now you've gone straight to, she's a narcissist and can't change.
I don't want to say there is more important problem. I realized that she's a narcissist several weeks ago.
Because I didn't know what does narcissistic... No, but you had a pretty good marriage, you said, right?
I mean, you're together for 15 years, you have children, right?
This fight happened quite... These fights were happening all the time.
So, nothing changed in these fights. So, I just started to see them in a new way.
Okay, so what's your theory as to why you didn't see it for 15 years?
Well, I think that's because I married to my wife, to my mother, basically.
Because my wife and my mother have very...
A lot of common traits.
And yeah, that's probably easy way to understand it, but for me, it was a kind of the sense of normality, I think.
Right, okay. And tell me a little bit about your childhood and what it was like for you growing up.
[8:43] I was grown in Russia, former Soviet Union.
And it was a pretty hard time over there.
Economic collapse, collapse of Soviet Union.
It was pretty hard life.
So my parents didn't have much time on me, for me, right? I don't remember they ever tell me that they love me.
And my mother specifically has a huge tendency to manipulate.
[9:33] And again, I didn't realize that it was a manipulation. I just realized that.
I couldn't talk to her, my mother.
[9:43] Relatively recently, I was talking to my mother and I was trying to talk about something and she immediately started to manipulate and I told her, mama, mother, this is manipulation. Please stop doing this.
She started to manipulate in another way, then another way. And we kind of were going back and forth.
I was just trying to tell her that what she's doing is manipulation and she didn't want to admit it.
And that's how it was all my childhood. So it was pretty hard to communicate with my mother because every time she turned out to be, it's my problem.
It was my problem. Turned out the conversation that it was my problem.
So there is a very common, a lot of similarities here. Right, okay. Were you hit as a child?
No, no, that's never happened. Okay. But I was the kind of the, my parents liked to.
[10:46] To do something like, they started to tell me how I should behave for hours, like an hour straight.
Oh, like lecturers, that kind of thing? Yeah, lecturers.
It could be an R. It's kind of a form of abuse.
So how bad I am could literally go to R's.
[11:13] And I didn't have anything to say in this, so like, nobody asked my opinion.
That was a kind of a lecture, I guess, you're right. Right, okay.
[11:23] And did you date much before you got married? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so, yeah.
[11:32] I dated several times, yes. So I married pretty late, I would say so.
And how did you meet your wife, and what drew you to her in the first place?
I met her in a cinema, in a theater.
[11:51] I just came to her, and I think she had the same role.
So she was very diligent, pretty, very unusual, I would say.
So, it was interesting to be with her.
She was pretty, as I said, and I think we had, later I understood that we had much of a similarity with the parents.
So, she had a problem with the parents as well.
And that's probably what drew us together. Yeah. Okay, and how long did you go out before you got married?
I would say pretty long.
I wasn't that big believer in a marriage itself, so I think that if we live together, it's good enough.
But we decided to move to another country. That would be easier if we are married, not just living together.
And we decided to marry, maybe because of this. And we didn't have a big marriage, so it was a pretty small one, just our parents and us.
[13:11] And I don't think we kind of consider our marriage seriously by this time, by that time.
So we thought that we are together, we're living together, and that's important.
And the marriage is just the stamp in the passport, as we said, or stamp in the certificate. it.
[13:38] Have kids.
Eight years, ten years, is that right? No, no, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.
So we were trying to have kids even before. So first we moved.
It was a very hard period of time.
Then we were trying to have kids and she had a miscarriage.
Then we tried again. So yeah, but there are some obstacles apart from the we didn't want it, right? Okay.
So we just moved and it's hard, then it was a miscarriage, yeah.
Yeah, I sympathize with that. That's very, it's very common and it's very, but it's very tough emotionally, so, okay.
And how are your children taken care of during the day?
[14:22] She's taken care of, so she doesn't work. I'm working, and she's mostly taking care of them, but recently, since the COVID, I was working from home.
So I spent quite some time with kids as well.
Okay, okay.
Now, you said that the behavior, her behavior hasn't changed, but your understanding of her behavior has changed.
And was there, you said there was one fight, or was there one moment that gave you this view?
I think multiple of them. So first of all, I started to notice that she's, instead of talking about something specific, to always try to change the topic of the conversation.
[15:12] To remember something in the past, most usually, and blame me.
So this is referrals, victim, and offender part.
And I started to notice that it's not productive. And I started to kind of keep her on the first topic, on the first initial thing we were trying to discuss, and it was extremely hard.
[15:44] And then I started to realize something's wrong here, so it's not normal, it's counterproductive, it's illogical, there is no reason to this.
And that was the kind of the mindset. I'm sorry, what do you mean there's no reason for this? I mean, it works, doesn't it?
It works, yes, there is no reason. No, no, there's every reason.
There's 15 years of you appeasing her.
Yeah, yeah. There is a reason to kind of make this conflict in a way she wants it, right?
She gets to win, right? Yes, yes.
That's the main point. Okay, so she gets to win and you have trained her in a way.
Like, you say she's a narcissist like you haven't spent 15 years appeasing her, and trained her into that to some degree.
I'm sure she had that from her childhood. But if you've spent 15 years saying, oh, sorry, honey, it was me. I'm bad. I'm wrong.
You're right. I'll take all the responsibility Then She's not who she is outside of what you've done. Does that make sense?
Yeah, so you are part of her responses Yeah, so if you label your wife you label yourself So you can't, you can't, logically you can't distance yourself from her and say she's a narcissist.
[17:07] Without labeling yourself as what?
Enabler? So the one who helps you?
Enabler or a codependent. So a codependent is someone who says if I have any standards in the relationship, I'll be left alone and that's the worst thing ever, so I'm going to appease people.
Because nobody's going to like me if I have any standards or values.
I'm just gonna get rejected and that this comes from childhood that if you feel like you disagree with your parents so you have some value or some, Some moral stand that they're just gonna escalate and attack or lecture or abandon you or something like that So for you to have standards is to be rejected, right?
Yes Yeah, okay. So so she and you are together, right?
I would imagine that neither of you grew up being able to exercise values and standards And so what happens is she then gets her way and you give her your way.
She doesn't know how to negotiate with you So she bullies you You don't know how to negotiate with her.
So you let yourself get bullied I mean, I don't want to make it too simple, but is that somewhat close?
I Think so. Yeah, right. I think that's that's pretty close. Okay, so you chose her.
[18:31] Because she is who she is and now you're noticing something which is you know good and good for you that's that's important but what I would like to hear is you saying, What have I done to reward her for her behavior?
I mean, she's trained you. She's rewarded you for your behavior, right?
Which is if you admit that you're at fault, she stops being hostile, right?
[19:01] So she rewards you for your behavior. And so you've done based on rewards and punishments.
She'll punish you if you don't accept responsibility and she'll reward you with approval, affection, sex, whatever. She'll reward you if you do take responsibility.
And so she's training you and you're training her.
[19:24] If you pay someone to do something, they'll do it.
People win the lottery, they play the lottery to win the lottery, right? They're looking for a particular reward.
And so she has rewarded you for submission and you have rewarded her for bullying.
Is that a fair way to put it? Yeah, I think so. Yeah.
Okay. So you're a system like after 15 years.
I Mean, can you can you pull apart your children and say well this?
This part is hers and this part is mine and like you're all mixed in together in your children, right? You're blended Right.
So so you and her are not two separate people interacting. You are one flesh You are a system you are as merged together as you are in your children.
Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. And that's the problem.
What's the problem? And that's the problem. So we are not the separate people anymore. Yeah. Well, no, no, that's not what you were saying, though.
What you were saying is, she's a narcissist, it's hurtful to me, I must either suffer with it or leave the relationship. You didn't put anything on yourself.
[20:35] Agreed. I feel like you gave me a whole thing about, and look I'm not saying you have all the responsibility, of course not, right?
But you certainly chose her, like nobody forced you to date her, to marry her, to have children with her, so you chose her, so you're part of it that way.
And anything that's gone on for 15 years that's voluntary.
[20:57] You know, it'd be like me calling you up and saying, well I chose to take this job 15 years ago and I've chosen to go to work every day and my boss is mean to me and I have nothing to do with it.
My boss is a narcissist and I'm a victim. I mean that wouldn't make any sense would it?
Yep, yep. So I know it's tough because your wife punishes you maybe with you taking all the responsibility so when I say you have to take some responsibility maybe it sounds like your wife and I'm trying to punish you.
I'm not, I'm not trying to punish you I'm just trying to say that if you want to change things Like the worst way to try and change things in a relationship, the absolute worst way to try and do it, never works, never works, is to say, my partner is a narcissist and I am a victim and I've only just realized this and she's got to be fixed but I can't change her so maybe I just have to live with it.
It's pretending that you are invisible in a sense or your choices don't exist.
You are where you are because of every choice you've made in your life.
As an adult, I mean as a kid right, we don't have much choice so I mean that's not but you are where you are because of every choice you've made.
Now that's bad news in that you don't get to play the victim but it's good news because you can change your choices and that doesn't mean saying do I stay or do I go with your with your wife.
[22:26] And you have created who she is. Yes, I understand. Yes, I understand this responsibility.
Okay, so what happens if you don't take responsibility?
All the responsibility, right? What happens is she'll try and bait you into, well, five years ago at the park you said this, and then you start talking about five years ago at the park, and then she says, well, 10 years ago on the roller coaster you looked at me funny, right?
And then you go and talk about 10 years ago on the roller coaster, and you never get to the current issues, right?
And then eventually you just get so exhausted worn down you're like yeah I'm sorry because your head is so convoluted you're in a maze, right?
She creates this maze of history and thoughts and eventually it's just like oh god okay I'm sorry whatever happened I'm sorry let's move on.
Okay so what happens if you don't do that?
She gave me a silent treatment, so basically we just almost don't talk.
So yeah. Okay, so if you say to her, that's unhealthy for the children, and it's very immature, so you need to not do that, right? We need to be in communication.
Because it's obviously bad for me. It's very manipulative. It's punishing.
[23:43] It's a bad example to set for the children, so it's bad parenting, and you have to not do that, right?
And you wouldn't say that, you'd yell at her, but you know, this is bad behavior, and it's in particular, it's very bad for the children, right?
To see that way of interacting.
[23:59] Or if you were to say, well, if you're going to give me the silent treatment, I'm not going to deposit any money into the bank account.
Because if you're not going to communicate with me, if you're not going to treat me reasonably, then I'm not going to treat you reasonably.
So she will tell me, let's divorce and... Okay, so what happens, so hang on, so if you're assertive, she says we'll just divorce?
Yeah. Okay. And when did that first come up? When did that solution first arise?
When I started to stand my ground. So when exactly, basically I was trying to do that.
So when I was trying to say that's, no, no, we are not, now we are talking about the Initial issue.
Let's discuss this first. And if you talk you want to talk about something else, we will do it next time, right?
So when I stop allowing her to To basically bully me. Yes.
Yeah, that's that that's the question of divorce Arise, okay.
So you said I want to talk about these current issues I don't want to get dragged into the past and so on and then over the course of you standing up for yourself Or not getting dragged off into these other areas She said what then we're just gonna divorce, Yeah, basically there is no reason for this relationship and this time Okay, and when did she first start threatening you with divorce?
[25:25] I Would say couple of years ago, yes Okay, so for a couple of years ago she's been threatening you with divorce.
[25:36] Yeah, I would say so yeah, okay, maybe maybe even even more so like She's very good at manipulation, right?
She put it in a, she used euphemism, right?
So I can attend on this. No, I need you to change your language.
And you don't have to, I'm just telling you what I would prefer.
You say, she's very good at manipulation.
Another way of saying that is that I'm very good at being manipulated.
I'm very, I reward her for manipulation.
Yeah. Like, cause if you do this, well, she's very good, What can I do right?
She's she's an expert tennis player and I've just picked up my racket for the first time Like what can I do?
Right, but you've been in this relationship 15 years. So whatever she's good at you've helped her with uh-huh.
[26:24] Yeah, I See Fred now. Sorry just before we get to the present.
Do you remember back in the beginning of the relationship?
Yes, do you remember when she first? Did this how long into dating? Did she?
Do things this way and make it all your fault and all that.
I would guess it started very early.
So I should have picked up this science very early. It started very early.
I cannot tell you like it was the first week, second week, but it definitely was in the first month.
Okay. And how old were you when you started dating her?
[27:10] Twenty-seven-ish. Yeah. Oh, gosh. So you're 10 years an adult almost.
Yeah, yeah, okay, and you had dated. I mean you're yeah, it's funny There's quite a difference between your your picture on Skype and what I saw on the video, Yes, how old is that picture on Skype oh my god, yeah like 10 years ago, yes more than 10 years ago Yes, we'll get to that in a second.
But because there's a reason why you would have that as your picture on Skype Okay, so you're a very good-looking guy ten years ago, and so I assume that you dated a fair number of girls, right?
Yeah. Okay. And did you date girls who didn't have this habit of being manipulative or narcissistic or bullying?
[27:59] It's hard to say right now, but I think so. Yes.
[28:03] Yes. I definitely can say so at least once for sure Okay.
So why do you think you didn't choose a girl who wasn't like this, which is just not pretty enough I mean was this the prettiest girl?
I mean, how did you how did you judge her?
I actually come to this idea that I somehow needed that and that's wasn't my kind of the first relationship Sorry, you needed what I needed this treating myself in this way, because when they were... Oh, you needed to be bullied?
I think so, yeah. And that's what you're trying to tell me.
I'm sorry, you keep saying, I don't know, I think so, perhaps, somewhat, I feel like I'm in the same fog that your wife creates for you.
Like you said, I feel I needed that. Oh, to be bullied? Yeah, maybe.
And it's like, I don't know what to do with all of this fog.
Like I can have a certain amount of uncertainty in a conversation.
But if you say, uh, I need you to come and pick me up, well, where, where are you? Are you in, are you in Toronto? Yeah, kind of.
Yeah. Well, are you near Bloor Street? I mean, somewhat, sort of.
And like, how am I supposed to, how am I supposed to have a relation, have a conversation where everything is qualified?
Now, if you're treating me like your wife, like if you say something certain around your wife, she'll attack you or something like that, then we can't have this conversation because everything is maybe sort of, kind of, a little bit, somewhat, you know?
[29:23] I understand, yeah. Sorry about that. That's all right.
Yeah. Okay, so you felt you need, now, if bullied is the wrong term, I'm happy to change the term for whatever, I'm trying to use the word that fits what your wife does with this kind of manipulation, or it seems to me it comes down to bullying, and certainly if she's been threatening divorce for half a decade or whatever it's been, then that's very bullying.
So if bullying is the wrong word, I'm happy to change it.
Let's say I need somebody who...
[29:58] Constantly make me prove that I deserve her.
And that's where I kind of feel that I need to reach this point.
Because in the past relationship with my first girlfriend, she accepted me as I was, right? And that's maybe because that's why it was boring.
And it became boring.
And I was like, I was pretty stupid by this time and I didn't understand what really I need to value in this life, right?
Oh, so this is like, it's exciting for you that your wife rejects you or has these standards and you've constantly gotta race after her. I think it was exciting for me, yes.
So it's, and I hate to say it, it's sexy, right? Because you said, but the other girl, she accepted you for who you were, she's probably a nice girl and all of that.
And so you liked chasing after your pretty wife's high standards, right?
That's sexy for you, that's a turn on, that's exciting, that's, right?
Yeah, yeah, I think so, yeah.
So you're no victim, right?
[31:17] Right. Right, like if someone has a weird fetish for amputees or something, I don't know what goes on out there, right?
And then he marries a woman with one leg and then he says, I'm a victim because she won't run a marathon with me or she won't play basketball with me or something.
He'd be like, well, no, you had a fetish for women with one leg and you married a woman with one leg.
[31:41] I'm not saying it's just a fetish, but I mean, if your wife is like looking down on you and you find it very exciting to try and meet her standards, because what that does is it plugs into our conquering right I want to conquer and and if it's like well this woman accepts me for who I am therefore there's nothing to conquer then that's less exciting for us but as men we want to feel like we are getting a woman who's too good for us in a way right I mean that's that's a temptation and of course that's mostly a temptation for men who are not striving in their careers right so if you're striving in your career then you don't also want to strive at home.
Like if you're trying to become the vice president of the Easter division at work, you don't want to come home and race after your wife's approval as well.
So she, by looking down on you, or by kind of rejecting you, or having these high standards that you had to fulfill, she then becomes more valuable in your eyes?
Does that make sense? Yes, absolutely. Okay.
[32:49] Right, and is this and this still this is still the dynamic of the relationship. Is that right?
Exactly. Yeah, we kind of the right now in this fight for for 40 months right now And I would also guess that your career is going quite well.
I Would say so yeah, I wouldn't say it's it's ideal but I think so. Yeah.
Okay. So one of the reasons why that's kind of tough It's because if you are higher status at work and then you go home and you're lower status with your wife, then that's hard to live with, right? Yeah, exactly.
I mean, the girlfriend that I had when I started becoming very successful in business, I mean, she was somebody who considered herself superior and eventually it's like, well, I'm chief technical officer and you're a secretary.
Like this superiority game is just getting ridiculous. Like I don't it's ridiculous.
I can't believe it at all anymore.
Like it's just it's just vanity It's not any kind of genuine superiority, right?
So if you're doing well in your career and she's a stay-at-home mom and being, a stay-at-home mom, of course, it's a great and good thing, but It's gonna be kind of tough for her to maintain this.
I'm better than you when you're doing well in the world and She's staying at home.
[34:06] Yep, and also it's going to be harmful to your career if your wife is putting you down, Yeah, yeah, and actually I feel it, even now.
Yeah, so there's a difference now. So you're in your late 30s, is that right?
40. 40, sorry, sorry, sorry. I have 27 plus 15. My bad, 43. Okay.
So you're in your 40s, so you're hitting your peak earning years.
You're hitting your peak male authority years, right? At work, I assume that you get some respect.
You have some success, and you have some expertise, and you have people who come to you for help and advice.
And so you're hitting your peak value as a man and then you go home and you're treated like a naughty thoughtless boy, right? Yeah, yeah.
[34:58] So, what was your first thought when your wife said, well, we'll just get a divorce, I'm just going to divorce you then?
I would say I think a lot about the kids because it's not just we are playing the games, right?
But it's also kids and it would be really hard for them if we just go to this divorce.
Yeah, I mean, okay, so you want to stay together for the sake of the kids, right?
I'm not sure if it's, like, I don't know.
[35:51] Because on the one side, I feel it could be better for kids.
But on the other hand, I feel like it could be even worse to see that this bad relationship between each other, between us, and kind of continue this chain of the bad behavior just going into the generations.
Do you have a boy and a girl, or? Both, boy and girl.
Boy and girl, right. Okay, yeah, so I mean for the boy to see you not have any authority in the household is not great.
Absolutely. And for the girl to see that bullying works is not great. Absolutely.
[36:33] Has your wife ever thought of therapy or couples counseling or anything like that?
Oh yes, so basically she had her therapist for two years by now.
Oh wow, okay. And we have couple therapy for several months like this almost immediately as it started, I wanted to go to the therapist because we could talk to each other.
So yeah, yeah, and she's a psychologist as well.
Oh, she's, okay, all right.
And how's the couples counseling going? Oh, we're stuck.
So this realization, this my realization of that she's probably, she behaved like a covert analysis.
Like, I can answer my questions, right? And that's my initial question, my initial demand, or how to say it, goal, was to understand what's going on, right?
I understand, I understood what's going on, and now I'm just done.
I'm sorry, but what does the counsellor say with regards to this, does the counsellor give any suggestions to your wife on anything to change?
[37:47] Yeah, but I don't think she's willing to accept anything to change.
So her of main demand towards me and stop criticizing her, even if she's wrong.
That's basically the call from her.
And basically, what it wants, me to kind of accept everything and get all the responsibility of what's happening.
And I don't think she's even slightly moving from this position.
[38:27] And have you referred to her or called her a narcissist directly? Yes.
Okay, so you have called your wife a narcissist, like obviously to her face or directly, right?
Yes, and I explained why I think so.
[38:45] Now, of course, a narcissist is, I don't know, I think it's generally not particularly fixable.
I'm certainly no expert in this area So if you call her a narcissist, aren't you saying because she's a psychologist so she would know this stuff, right? Aren't you saying that?
You are unable to have a relationship and will forever mostly be unable to have a relationship No, I didn't say that.
No. No, I'm not saying that's what you said, but that's what she would understand I think Mm-hmm. Yeah, is that is that fair?
[39:18] I would say she cannot have a relationship in a way as I think they should be right now.
Well, no, but it's not a good relationship, right? No, no. All right.
I don't want to... Sorry, you go ahead.
As we discussed, maybe I wanted such kind of relationship before, right?
Maybe that's why I chose her, but now, yes, I think that's an unhealthy relationship and I don't like them anymore. Right, okay.
Ah, okay.
Let me just see here. So, according to, just to look up here, narcissistic personality disorder is an incurable lifelong condition that cannot be cured.
[40:18] And that's sort of my obviously amateur understanding.
Narcissistic personality disorder can be treated but no cure exists for this lifelong condition.
[40:36] A full psychotherapy of narcissistic personality disorder generally takes at least five to ten years.
It's a long slow and complex process There is no cure to make narcissists develop the empathy they are lacking, Generally the most most mental health disorders don't have a cure and as blissful as the news of a cure for narcissism is unfortunately There is currently no cure.
[41:02] So Narcissists, sorry it says here, narcissists can't be cured with therapy and it's dangerous to try and treat them.
All it does is give them more understanding of how to abuse their victims, stay away from narcissists, leave them be in their disturbed world.
So yeah, it does seem to be the case that it's not particularly solvable.
Solvable as I understand there is a whole spectrum of narcissism, right?
This is it's also it's a darkness. So that's the kind of the highest form is done diagnosable by the therapist, but there is a whole spectrum of narcissistic traits, right?
And I'm not Psychiatrist to understand where my where my wife is in this spectrum, She's definitely somewhere there, but where?
That's a good question. Well, okay, let's say that she's somewhere closer to the fixable side, but you can't fix her, right?
[42:07] I have a hope I can. No, no, I'm sorry.
[42:12] If an expert can't fix her, if a well-trained psychologist, can't fix her, Like, as far as I understand it, somebody with narcissistic personality disorder who even gets admitted to a mental treatment facility can't be fixed.
In other words, like, if someone's a smoker, you can fix them by putting them in a facility where they can't get cigarettes, right?
Like you can, at least you can get them through the withdrawal stages and all of that, right?
So as far as I understand it, even if somebody has 24, even if a whole team of professionals has 24-7 control over someone for months, they can't cure narcissism.
Yeah. So if trained professionals with 100% control over the person can't fix them, how can you do it as a non-trained non-professional who has no particular authority?
[43:08] But yeah, yeah, you're right. Absolutely. And also, you know, if you're right about the narcissism, then having needs around a narcissist does what?
If you say to a narcissist, I really need something from you, what does that give them? Gives them power over you, right? Absolutely.
So if you really need her to change, then she has power over you by not changing, right? is if she actually were to change, she would lose that power over you.
Yep. And all of this is kind of irrelevant anyway, because if she doesn't admit that there's a problem, then no change is gonna happen, right? That's not true.
So, I mean, if I were in your shoes, and I know it's painful and all of that, but I think trying to get through to as clear a vision of the situation as possible is always a good thing, however painful it might be.
Why do you think she finds you so disposable?
And we could sort of say, oh it's a narcissism or whatever we'd want to call it, but that doesn't really answer too much.
Like if you're right, look I mean obviously she's not here and if she ever does want to talk I'd be happy to do a show with her as well, but, if you're right and you say listen I'm just standing up for myself and I'm just refused to be to be manipulated and then she says I want to divorce you, why do think she... why do you think you're so disposable to her?
[44:37] I don't know. Well you... I didn't say what you know, I said why do you think?
Why do you think she just is willing to just say, well, if you're not gonna do what I want, I'm just gonna divorce you?
So if I'm right with understanding narcissism, according to the books I read, so she's trying to keep the distance all the time.
She's basically believe inside herself that I don't, she doesn't need me.
So in case something happens, she can easily dispose me.
So that's the kind of the preposition of her.
So to keep me as an observer. Well, okay, but saying she can dispose of me because she believes she can dispose of me doesn't answer anything.
Why are you so irrelevant to her that she'll just toss you aside if you displease her?
Because she wants me to play a certain role, and if I don't want to play this role, she doesn't need me.
So then she has no particular bond with you, is that right?
[45:53] There is a big question if narcissists can bond with anyone, right?
No, no, I don't want to get abstract. I want to talk about you and your wife.
So does she have any particular bond with you?
I don't think so and actually it's very interesting because today where we just talked with the Therapist couple therapist and he asked us to write a picture of family, And I write sorry he asked you to what ask us to write to draw a picture of death of death on of death Family.
Oh, I'm sorry to draw a picture of family. Okay, my apologies.
Go ahead So, yeah, and I drew a picture of us, like our family, he, myself, her, and two kids.
And she drew a picture of the family, of her and her parents.
[46:48] And she drew a picture where her is kind of the cuddling in a hole in the ground, literally.
And the parents in another hole in the ground and not looking at her, So that's the picture of family So that's real childhood stuff for her right being ignored by her parents and having to hide from her parents and so on Okay, so she's does she does she know or has she admitted that she has unprocessed trauma from her childhood?
Yes, she admitted that and she I guess that's why she's going to therapy for two years, right? Yes, and she stopped to talk with her father.
Okay for for a year More and is she back talking with them now No, oh So a year ago. She stopped talking to her parents was there.
I mean what happened with her parents that that you know of, So basically I'm not sure exactly What I what I know from what she telling me is that first of all, her father was very abusive, so, he hit her.
So he was trying to explain mass to her and when she couldn't understood it, he gave her this slap on the back of the head, how they call it in English.
[48:17] Yeah, and it happened multiple times. Also, she's mentioned some kind of the sexual abuse, So she's trying to demonstrate herself in the underwear quite often in front of her.
She didn't like it. She even asked him to stop doing this.
I'm sorry, who's the he in this situation? Her father.
Her father? Yeah. Okay, so she's showing her underwear to her father as a child?
He's showing his underwear to her. Oh, so he's modeling his underwear in front of her as a child Yes, okay, and she didn't like it a lot and she asked her mother, To tell him to stop doing this and he refused doing this and that was a one of her traumas from his father apart from being cute I'm sorry. Sorry. So her father.
[49:21] Stood in front of her in his underwear. How old was she? Even when she was 17-ish.
Yeah, it's almost grown up. I mean obviously that's... hang on...
So obviously that's very... I mean that's wildly inappropriate and and terrible.
But I don't know that it falls quite into the category of sexual abuse.
At least she put us in a way. So she believes He is an exhibitionist, or how do you say it in English?
Exhibitionist. No, listen, it's wrong, obviously, but it's not fundamentally different from him standing in a bathing suit, and I mean, it's inappropriate and terrible, of course, but I mean, I've talked to some, and you've heard these shows, right?
I've talked to people who've had real, they're real victims of sexual abuse, right?
Like they've been penetrated, they've, you know, forced oral sex and all of this monstrous stuff.
I don't feel that this is in the same... I mean, it's wrong, obviously, but I don't... It seems that that's wildly inappropriate, but I can't put it in the category of sexual abuse myself.
And also, she's telling that, at least a couple of times she told me, that there is something she forget, and, like, intentionally forget, forgot.
That might involve some, maybe, hire for sexual abuse.
[50:46] Okay. Yeah, I mean, I don't really know what to do with that if someone says there could be something but I don't remember and yeah I don't really know what to do.
But from what she's saying while wildly inappropriate and immoral I don't view that as in the same category because I'd really have to I, Don't want to diminish what the people who've suffered what to me would be direct and genuine sexual abuse as little children I wouldn't want to hijack that phrase for this inappropriate stuff Yeah, I agree with you.
[51:16] And when did you find out about the problem she had as a child over the course of your dating or relationship?
Recently just at least it happens in She when she started to go to the psychologist.
So Before it was kind of the half a year before so two and a half years ish from now Oh, so two and a half years ago.
You found out that she had some child abuse So, she was complaining that her father was hitting her because she didn't study properly.
But it wasn't like something serious. So when it sounded like a serious thing, it was a couple, two and a half years ago, yeah.
And it wasn't because her father hitting her, this was a sexual abuse.
Okay, so her father hit her in the back of the head when she didn't get some math and stood in front of her in his underwear.
[52:18] I don't, you know, I'm not trying to diminish any of this stuff, but I mean you've heard about some of the childhoods I've heard about on this show.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not quite sure I follow how this produces narcissism.
[52:43] What do you want to say?
I mean, that's not much child abuse.
Am I wrong?
Yeah. I am wrong. I agree.
It's comparative, right? It depends on how people how she actually, felt about that, right? No, no, no it doesn't. No, because that's to say that feelings are the only reality.
In a sense it is, for the human, right? No.
No, I mean, you can go talk to somebody else, but not a rational empirical philosopher, to say that feelings are the only things that matter.
So you're going to have to have a conversation with somebody else, maybe a psychologist, but that's not me, right?
Yeah, that's for sure. I mean, if it's like, well, my father stood in front of me in his underwear when I was 17 and he smacked me on the back of the head when I couldn't get math, I'm like, yeah, that's bad. I mean, but this is not rampant child abuse.
[53:53] Yes, and and it's see I guess I would be troubled I would be troubled that she would be, That she would be exploiting the sympathy that we would have to victims of Rampant child abuse and also to the victims of genuine sexual abuse that she would be, Trying to get the sympathy we would reserve for those other people, And she's trying to get into that category to get extra sympathy and drama when I don't view it as being deeply within those categories, if that makes sense.
Yeah, now it makes sense. Yeah, I think you could be right here.
Because that's how her manipulation works, she's trying to show how big a victim she is.
[54:42] Okay. So, you don't know what happened with her parents much, is that right?
Mostly I told you everything, and there is one more thing that happened just recently.
Her father has a very... Yeah, probably I missed one important detail. else.
So it was a picture they wanted to send to our kids to see when her father is in the towel just out of the sauna with the towel around his torso, right?
In front of the snowman and they really wanted to show his picture to our kids.
[55:37] And she didn't want to do it, because she thought that's the form of exhibitionism.
And that's where it started.
So yeah. So it started when our kids were involved, at least from her understanding.
Okay. So she said, I don't want to see a picture of my father with a towel wrapped around his waist.
I mean, does he have a good physique? Is that what he's showing off? Is he proud of that?
No, maybe, maybe, but not, not, not, for his age, probably it's not terrible, but I wouldn't say he's, he's doing any, any sport.
Okay, got it. Okay, so she said, I don't want to, I don't want my kids to see this because she wants to protect her children, right? Yes.
But if she wants to protect her children, why is she threatening divorce to her husband all the time? Because that's not protecting her children at all, right?
That's for sure. Okay. So it's nothing to do with protecting children.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay.
How much weight have you gained since you have met her?
[56:51] So I gained some weight. So, I would say.
Uh, I would say 20 pounds, like I was starting to gaining some weight, so I'm not sure it's she's maybe like, yeah, we were eating too much sweets.
Yeah, I went to pretty big weight and then I decided to that I need to do something with this.
So how much weight did you gain at the maximum?
So it was more than 100 kilograms.
So... 100 kilograms? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I am pretty tall actually.
But that's like, what, 160 pounds? I can't remember. No, that's 220 pounds?
No. Yeah, I guess so, yeah. You gained. No, not that you gained, but you got to.
I got to, yes. Okay, sorry, you said I gained 100 kilograms.
Okay, so you got to 220 pounds or so. And then you lost some, is that right?
Yeah, pretty big. So I started to do fitness in a serious manner.
So right now I'm in good shape, I think.
And what did you get down to? Yeah, but I'm pretty good.
And what's your current weight?
So right now it's 89-ish.
[58:17] Recently I gained quite a lot because of the stress, yes. So again, sweet came back. Well, no, not because of the stress.
No, you've got to stop externalizing why things happen.
It's because of how you dealt with the stress. I mean, there's lots of ways.
Some people lose weight because of stress. So you can't say I gained weight because of stress, right?
Okay. And what has your wife's weight and attractiveness, how has that been over the course of your relationship?
Obviously, it went down because she gets her best age in the past, for sure, right?
And she's gaining weight, yeah. And she's trying to lose weight all the time.
And how much weight has she gained? If you could give it to me in pounds, I'm sorry to be so retarded. Oh, my God.
So yeah, I didn't weight her. I think it's 2.2, isn't it? 2.2 kilo.
So it's 1.6 kilometers to the mile and I think it's 2.2 pounds, kilograms, to the, pounds to the kilogram.
Yeah, 2.2, you're right. Okay, so has she gained a small amount, a medium amount, a large amount?
So I would say she took a quite large amount, especially after the birth of our first child.
[59:43] She lost quite a significant part of it, but she's still kind of not in the shape she was before.
And did she lose it by exercise or just calorie restriction or what?
Calorie restriction, because she's running sometimes, but not like on a serious manner.
Okay, yeah, so when women have a lot of power over being attractive, if they lose that attractiveness, then they'll often try to gain more power in their personal relationships to compensate. Yeah, I see, Brent. Yeah.
Okay. And sorry to be asking and you don't have to answer anything you don't want to, do you still have a sex life with your wife?
So, since we started this fight, we didn't. But we had before.
Oh, so you had before. And just, sorry, remind me how long this particular fight has been going on for?
More than three months by now. Three months? Yeah, and this fight started when we changed, we had a big move.
So, it was a pretty hard move for us to change the state.
And, yeah, three months plus some additional time, several weeks.
Okay, so for three months plus you haven't had any sex or physical affection, is that right? Yeah.
[1:01:06] And is it that she's rejecting you or you aren't approaching her, I don't mean just for sex, but for affection, or is it mutual?
I would say it's mutual. So since we are not talking to each other, so the idea of having sex is just completely out of the consideration.
Out of the consideration.
Okay, so are you saying not just that you don't have sex, but you're not talking to each other for three months?
Yeah, almost not talking to each other, except for the specific...
Yeah, some functional stuff, yeah, yeah, yeah. Functional stuff.
Right, right.
[1:01:45] And how is she, and how are you, with not talking to each other?
Could you repeat the question? I'm not sure I understood it. Well, I mean, are you tortured by not talking to each other? Is she upset, or are you both just fine with it?
I'm tortured for sure. So for me, it's hard. So yeah, that's pretty hard.
So I lost my sleep. Yeah, that's pretty hard for me.
And for her? I don't know.
Like, she doesn't look like it's really upsetting for her.
On our therapy, she even mentioned that it's much better for her.
Oh, she prefers not talking or having affection or sex?
Yeah, kind of. At least that's how she would like to sound.
[1:02:40] Maybe it's not true. Well, I mean, if she doesn't appear to be bothered and she says she prefers it, we can't make a ghost up inside of her that's the opposite of what she says and does, right? Yeah, absolutely.
So you have no marriage?
At this point, yes. Well for three months and they're chosen.
And she prefers it this way, so how is it going to end?
Like how is this freeze going to thaw?
I don't know. The most disturbing thing for me, that's how quickly it goes from Henneke marriage, and then we were talking about having another kid, actually.
Then something relatively small thing happens.
Well, hang on. Is it that? You called her a narcissist.
What's small? It happened before. Remind me what the small thing was again?
We just fight for very little things. She kind of offended me and I said, she offended.
I can tell the whole story, but I don't think it's important.
Well, I'd like to know I'd like to know what was the trigger Trigger was that I.
[1:04:00] Was offended and show her that I was offended I can tell you this full story if you'd like to sure So the full story is this.
[1:04:13] Well, usually when she goes to bed I'm, Give her a hug, laying with her sometime, right, before, and I keep doing my stuff, because I'm going to bed much later than her.
And it was a simple ritual on our previous place we lived, because my place where I work and do stuff, so my computer, was right close to the bed, right?
So she went to the bed, and I came to her, and right now it's different floors, Basically.
And I asked her, like, when are you going to brush your teeth?
So let me know and I'll come to you.
And she didn't like to let me know, to come to her.
[1:05:03] And this time she said, why do I need to always tell you that you need to come? Come with me.
But I say why why why should I come with you because I was just going to wait here when you are going to be In a bathroom brushing to this, right?
But she was kind of the upset about this and said, okay fine, And I was kind of the trying to pick my stuff when I was seeing that she's going upstairs, without me and And I was very upset like you wanted me to come with you and now you're just coming alone and that was the starter of the fight and, She was the first she started to deny that she meant to come together So she meant that she goes first and I need come second, but together means together, right?
And then it started to switch to other other things in the past, and come to the things that she mentioned, like she said, she said, who you are, so I explain myself to you.
[1:06:20] So this kind of discard, and I mentioned that, please stop your stupid explanations, or something like this. So it was pretty heated.
Okay, and then we stopped talking for a week. In a week, I just wanted, okay, let's talk.
I suggest let's talk and let's at least explain our position.
Because I don't really understand, didn't really understand why we even started to this fight.
Because it was very simple, Nothing, just nothing.
[1:06:55] And I explained my position.
Maybe I wasn't, yeah, I agree I wasn't. I tried to be neutral.
But that, she just exploded after that. First of all, she started to, she gave me ultimatum, ultimatum, am I saying it correctly?
That I have to cancel my relationship with my psychologist.
Wait, you have to or she has to? I have to cancel my relationship with the psychologist.
[1:07:38] Because there are some of them who are trying to break the relationship intentionally, and she's not going to make peace with me until I cancel this relationship.
Sorry, is it that you were also seeing a psychologist and it was your relationship with your psychologist that your wife wanted you to cancel because she thought that your psychologist was trying to break up the marriage?
Yes, and that's the only part of the story.
The second part of the story, I have to cancel my relationship with psychologist anyway, because I moved to a different state.
He cannot continue to work with me in a different state, because his license, that's a low hit. And she knew about it.
She knew that we had about a couple of sessions with psychologist just to finish this stuff.
She knew about it. but she forgot about this.
And that's kind of the gave me perception that's how she out of the reality during this fight, right?
[1:08:40] Yeah, and then she started to tell me, so that's how I consider it as threatening of a suicide.
Threatening of a suicide. I'm sorry, what now? Yeah, threatening of a suicide, so.
So she went from you need to dump your psychologist because, well, I imagine that she perceived the psychologist as telling you to stand up for yourself and she didn't like that, so she wanted you to not get that kind of support.
And then she threatened to commit suicide?
She uses euphemisms, right? She said that, I don't know how can I live with that, so I don't think that's the reason for me to live with death but basically, yeah, she's talking about, She didn't say that if you don't do it, I will commit suicide.
[1:09:28] But she was telling that she cannot live with this, live in terms of the...
Yeah, okay, okay. So, can we consider it treating with suicide?
I don't know, I mean, I don't know, I mean, that's hard to know the exact words that we used, but okay, but you got that impression that she couldn't even live if you didn't change or get rid of your psychologist or something like that. Okay.
And again, she kind of converted this fight to the global problem that we have so many things that is problem and she cannot even understand how she can live with me.
And what would her, if she was on the call and I were to say to her, what are the problems, what would she say?
[1:10:17] Let me start. I don't know where to start. First, she is really tired of these fights.
Because we, every time we fight, we usually fight on occasions like a celebration or something, and she's really tired of that.
She can't handle this fight because I'm constantly offended or something like this.
She doesn't like that I cannot help her.
I don't help her with the kids, because I work too late.
And I have to start my work early so I can help her with the kids.
She would tell me that's, um.
[1:11:05] I don't know, like a bunch of stuff. But yeah, I wake up too late, so she doesn't know what to do when she's waking up with the kids, and I have to wake up early. And when do you wake up?
Usually around 10.
And what are you doing so late at night? Just doing my stuff, like I don't know, like just enjoying my time to myself.
Like right now, watching movies, reading.
[1:11:44] Sometimes I work too late, so because I go to the, I go to fitness.
To be in this class, I have to kind of break my work on two parts.
So I have to, at least now, I finish my work sometimes at 10.
Yeah, to be able to... So hang on, so you're not spending time in the morning with your kids and your wife because you're watching movies at night? Sometimes.
Yeah, but I feel like I'm available during the weekends, for sure.
Okay, I mean, you can understand that from your wife's perspective that could be a little frustrating, right?
Yeah, I can understand. I mean, he would rather watch a movie at night than spend time with us in the morning.
Yep. And it does put the bulk of work on your wife. Are both of your kids in school?
Yep, right now yes. Right, so she's got to get them up and get them ready for school and they're off to school and they're an hour in school before you even get up right? Yep. Right.
And what does she do during the day when the kids are in school?
[1:13:01] She's preparing food, she's going to the stores to buy everything, she's spending time with the kids.
No, no, when they're in school, right, so they're in school from like, I guess, what, 8.15 or 8 o'clock or whatever the bus picks them up or they go, to school and then they come home, what, 3.30 or 4, so that's like a work day where she doesn't have the kids.
I mean, if she was homeschooling the children, then we would know what she would be doing with the kids all day, which would be playing with them, educating them, and so on, right?
But if the kids are in school, then she has almost a full workday at home, and what does she do?
I mean, you're home with her, right? So you have some idea.
[1:13:44] So, sometimes she goes to the store to buy foods, right? Sometimes she prepares food.
But oftentimes, I don't know what she's doing. Well hang on, don't you pop out from, you must pop out from work and, I mean, you know, there's buying groceries and stuff like that, but that's not 40 hours a week, right?
I mean, she's got 40 hours a week almost where she doesn't have the kids around.
So what's she doing? Right now she's, they're not at school for that long, right?
So she pick up the kids around one o'clock.
What school ends at one?
It's day seven and five. So the seven year olds in regular school, isn't it? I don't know where you are and it doesn't really matter.
But are you saying that's only a half day for the kids? Is it a kid?
No, it's a second grade. Wow.
Second grade goes from what, like nine till noon?
[1:14:45] Nine to about one o'clock. Yeah, maybe not nine, maybe eight to one o'clock.
Yeah. Eight to one o'clock.
Yeah, I think they started at eight. Okay.
Oh, so she has to get up like, what, six thirty or quarter to seven or whatever, just to get the kids ready for school, right?
Yeah. Yeah, so she's got six thirty, quarter to seven, and then you're getting up like three or four hours later. Yep.
Yeah, that can be somewhat, I mean that can be somewhat annoying, if that makes any sense. Yeah, I can understand.
[1:15:18] Okay, and I'm glad to be corrected when I remember going to school at that age for a lot longer than 8 to 1, but you know, that's fine.
Okay, so she has 8 to 1, so she has 5 hours a day without the kids.
So there's 25 hours a week and so she does some groceries, but you're not sure what she does with the rest of the time.
I mean, does she do volunteer work? Does she do charity work?
Does she help out at a soup kitchen? Does she go and visit the elderly?
Does she do anything in the community that would be considered charitable? No, I don't think so.
You don't think so? What do you mean? You'd be married to this woman.
No, I'm just saying that's the way, no, no. Sometimes, sometimes she's trying to help.
So she's very into this.
It was at least on the previous date, believe into this, uh, groups where people change used things for nothing.
Okay. Pick up something. Sure. She gave something.
[1:16:20] But no, it looks like she has work or volunteering on a regular basis.
No, it's not like this. Oh, okay.
Because, you know, with the people who claim to want to be good, you know, one of the things I look for, it's not absolutely have to, but one of the things that I look for is people who do some sort of charity or maybe some volunteering.
It's just, it's something that can be, it's not perfect, but it can be an indication of some sort of kindness or generosity of spirit or something.
She also, I don't know if I need to mention, she's also like trying to get rid from the Facebook dependency, so she's trying to put a timer.
Oh, she's addicted to Facebook?
Maybe I would say so. Yeah, I'm sorry, you said she's trying to kick a Facebook dependency, so if that's not an addiction, I'm not sure what it is then.
So she's trying to put a timer restriction on her phone, I helped her to restrict that. Okay, okay.
And do you know what she does on Facebook?
[1:17:25] So she's in these groups, lots of the groups.
[1:17:33] She's finding people, so she's going on the play dates with kids, but again when she has a play date she's talking with parents, right? So it's kind of, fun for her, at least I would say so, at least on a part.
Okay but she's not spending, she's not addicted to setting up play dates on Facebook, so do you have any idea what she's doing, like what groups she's part of or what she's doing on Facebook? Very little.
But it's not a good idea to try to see what's going on, specifically if she's doing it on Facebook.
So she's looking for updates, I don't know. I'm not into Facebook much, at all, I would say.
No, but it's something that your wife is into, and part of a marriage is knowing what each other is doing, right?
Yeah. It's not like you're not checking up on her, it's just like, oh, you're in these Facebook groups, tell me more. What do you guys chat about?
It's just conversation. It's just the scrolling the ribbon, or how they call it. The feed. The feed, yeah.
Well, sure, but scrolling the feed doesn't tell you what she's interested in.
Everybody scrolls the feed, right? It depends who you follow or what groups you're part of or... So yeah, I don't know. I can't answer the question.
[1:18:55] And do you know if she has any other outside influences that might be harming your marriage, right?
[1:19:01] She's obviously concerned about your psychologist and do you know, this is why it would be important, if she's part of like the bitter women who hate men group on Facebook then she's probably not getting a lot of good feedback or advice.
So I guess I'm just curious if you know if there's any outside influences in the marriage that might... See I mean look to be honest this so we men tend to be a little bit more independent and and skeptical of outside influences.
Women a tiny bit more, or a little bit more susceptible to the hive mind, to people saying, you know, if someone were to come to most husbands and say, oh your wife is just taking advantage of you, I mean, I think a few more husbands would be like, no, not really, you're just some person trying to mess up the marriage, but I think sometimes women are a little bit more susceptible to other women or people coming and saying, oh honey you're just being exploited and he's taking advantage if Judy doesn't care about you and for some reason this seems to take root in women a little bit more.
And so if there's some outside influence that might be turning her against the marriage or against you, it might be worth knowing.
I cannot tell you. Yeah, yeah, probably I need to figure it out.
Could it be that's her psychologist?
[1:20:21] Well, okay, so with her psychologist if so, there's a couple of options and possibilities, right?
So either she's lying to her psychologist, right and she's not saying I haven't talked to my husband in three months, right?
Either either she's just lying about that or she's telling the truth about that and either her psychologist is saying to her, well no, you've got to go and talk to your husband, this is not a viable situation, this is not a good situation, you have to go talk to your husband, of course you do, right?
And she's not listening to him, or her, or her psychologist, she has told her psychologist she hasn't talked to you for three months, and he's not saying, no, you have to go talk to your husband, like come on, this is ridiculously childish and of course you have to go and talk to your husband, right?
Her psychologist is analytical spectrum, so it's like a Freudian psychologist, it's not exactly Freudian, it's Lacan, Jacques Lacan, but basically as far as I understand her psychologist is not supposed to tell you what to do, her what to do.
She's supposed to lead her to this thought.
So, of course, I mean, whether she's telling your wife directly to come and talk to you, or she's leading her to that direction, it still shouldn't take three months, right? Oh, yeah.
[1:21:44] I think a psychologist is somehow to keep your perception that there is nothing wrong to be not responsible, to not take responsibility for anything.
Well, I mean, that's very, you don't know the sessions, right?
So we don't know. I mean, it would be a strange psychologist to say to a client, you're not responsible for anything in your life. That would be a very, I've never heard of that kind of psychology.
I just, I just, so when she kind of gave me this ultimatum that I have to break with psychologists, I started to think about it. Okay, what about her psychologist, right?
And that's the thing which came to my mind, because that's the moment she's kind of started to be more assertive.
[1:22:38] With her demands of the switching context and this fight coincide with the moment she started to see her psychologist.
Okay. But I may be wrong here, of course, yeah. Okay, so if you could just pretend to be your wife for a second.
Yeah. If I, and I'm being you, right?
So I go up to you as your wife and I say, Okay, sweetheart, it's been like a couple of months now, we really do need to sit down and try and talk about this stuff, because, I mean, it's not good for us, it's certainly not good for the children to have two parents who aren't talking, and you know, I mean, I'm certainly willing to listen to issues that you have and work to resolve them, but, this is not a sustainable situation for us or for the mental health of our children. What would you say?
[1:23:31] Okay, talk. What do you want to say? Well, no, I mean, do you think that we should talk? Yeah, of course we should.
How long have you thought that we should talk?
But you didn't want to talk to me. No, no. How long have you thought that we should talk? Right away.
So for the last three months, for the last three months you felt...
I'm sorry, let me just let me just finish, sweetheart.
For the last three months, you have felt that we should talk?
[1:24:03] I felt that you have to talk because you made this conflict and you have to talk with me first.
No, but you felt that we should talk, but then you felt that I should do it.
Yeah, because I didn't think I did anything wrong, and you have to...
If you think that I'm valuable to you, you have to come and talk.
But when I have come to talk, you haven't seemed to want to talk.
It's just your interpretation. I really wanted to talk.
Oh no, no, no, it's not, hang on, sorry, that's not just my interpretation, I mean, like I I literally have come to try and talk to you and you haven't wanted to talk.
But you started to blame me. Okay, let me ask you this.
Is it possible that we share some responsibility in our conflicts, whether it's equal or not, doesn't have to be 50-50, I don't even know what that means.
Is it possible that we share some responsibility for the conflicts?
Of course, yeah. I think I share my part as well. So I don't want to say that it's only your part, but it's like a 80-20.
[1:25:15] Sorry, I'm a little confused then, because you just said that I'm responsible for the conflict, therefore I have to come and talk to you, and now you're saying that... I'm sorry, let me just finish, let me just finish.
Like you said, you're responsible for the conflict, therefore I, as your husband, have to come and talk to you.
But now you're saying that you have some part of the conflict as well.
Yeah, but you have much bigger part.
But no, but that's just it, that's different from what you said.
[1:25:41] How? Well, you said that I'm responsible for the conflict, and now you're saying I have more responsibility than you, but that's different from saying I'm responsible, because I'm responsible 100%, and even if you say 80-20, I'm just pointing out there's a slight difference, here, which is kind of important, right?
[1:26:00] Okay, but why do you always start these conflicts? I'm sorry, why do I what? Always start these conflicts.
I just got tired from these conflicts. No, hang on, so now we're back to, like, my head's spinning a little bit here, because you said, it's all me, and then you said, it's some you, and now you're saying, why do you always start this conflict, and now you're basically saying it's back to 100% me?
Like, I'm a little confused. What you're talking, it doesn't make sense.
Let's talk about some real problems. So, why do you always start this conflict?
I'm so tired of this. I don't know how to, how can I live with this conflict?
It's so exhausting for me. I'm sorry, hang on, hang on, hang on.
Sweetheart, do you not realize, like you're starting the conflict here.
I've not said anything mean to you. I never, it's just your interpretation.
No, no, it's not. You're just saying, why do you always start this conflict?
That's a very aggressive thing to say.
I'm just saying we should talk and I think we both have responsibility in the conflict. But you don't want to talk, you want to blame me.
You don't come to me to talk. No, but you see, when you, hang on, so sweetie, when you say, You always start this conflict, all you want to do is blame me, that's very aggressive, right?
And that's putting a hundred percent of all the problems... I'm just trying to defend myself. No, no, sorry, sweetie, sweetie, sweetie, sweetie, okay, hold on, take a deep breath, take a deep breath, okay?
[1:27:17] You can't over-talk me, otherwise we can't have a conversation.
Now, I'll listen to... Okay, let's talk... No, no, no, you're doing it again, you're doing it again.
You need to let me finish, I mean, basic communication is you need to let me finish my sentence before you talk. Can we agree on that?
[1:27:32] Well, okay. Okay, good. Thank you. I appreciate that. No, no, sorry, sorry, sorry. You're just doing it again.
So we agree that you should let me finish my sentence.
And look, if I overtalk you, which I may do, I'm impatient as well sometimes, so if I overtalk you, you can let me know and I'll apologize for that, but we do need to let each other finish our sentences. Is that fair?
[1:27:55] Yeah, sure. Okay, good, good. So when you say you always start the conflicts and all you want to do is blame me, that's very aggressive.
That's putting all the responsibility of the conflict on me.
So let me ask you this, and I'll talk about my stuff for sure.
You say it's 80-20. I don't know where you'd come up with that, but let's just say.
So what's the 20% that you do? Because I do own that I can be aggressive, and I called you narcissistic, which is really, really sorry.
I'm so sorry for that. That was really, really destructive and harmful and hurtful.
[1:28:27] And I'm really sorry for that. I should not have done that, And I also should not be up late watching movies that are, you know, kind of dumb movies, and letting you take care of the kids in the morning while His Majesty over here sleeps in. That's not right.
And I have let it go for too long without having this conversation.
So I've absolutely, completely, and totally made mistakes.
No question. And I'm really, really sorry for that. And I'm working very hard in my head, and I can show you my journals if you're interested.
I'm working really hard to sort of take more responsibility for that and not be that way.
So that's me, I mean me taking responsibility and genuinely apologizing for things that I shouldn't have said and shouldn't have done and I I am really sorry for that.
I mean we do have two wonderful children together and we have been together 15 years, we have a lot invested, we care about each other a lot and I have not been doing all the things that I should be doing and absolutely and there's no question that there are times when I'm impatient or frustrated and don't take responsibility you can get too aggressive.
Absolutely completely 100% and I'm really sorry for all of that as well.
[1:29:35] And what do you think? I'm so sorry go ahead. I didn't mean to drop you.
I thought you weren't gonna say something, That's good that you realize it that's really good that you realize it yeah, But how it how it could change the situation like the situation come to a point where I can just can't tolerate it anymore, well, okay, so that's my taking ownership of And it was nice for you that I took some ownership for the mistakes and not just the mistakes, but the meanness that I've had in our...
That was nice for you, wasn't it, that I took some responsibility?
But you're just doing this to say something good, so you can offend me again.
Well, no, I mean, I'm not sure what you're talking about there, but it was relatively nice for you when I took some ownership for what I'd done, right?
Yeah, I would say so. Okay, good. So it would also be nice for me, and you know, we can keep it at the 80%, 20% if you want, that's okay.
So let's say I'm doing 80% and what is the 20% that you would like to do better going forward?
[1:30:55] We didn't come that far. It's hard for me to imagine how would my wife react
[1:31:01] to this. Well, no, no, hang on.
So, sorry, sorry to interrupt. No, you know what? I'm over-talking you.
I thought you were done, so I'll be quiet and I apologize for that. Please go ahead.
[1:31:10] No, no. Yeah, I don't know. How would she react on this?
Okay. Well, let's let's try it another way so Even if we say it's 80-20, I think that's not particularly fair.
I think in most things it's 50-50 But let's say it's 80-20 at 80% me and 20% you.
[1:31:30] What would you like to have done differently and then she would say something like well, I don't know or whatever and it's a well You know, you've had three months to talk about it, and you've also sorted it into 80% me, 20% you.
Now, the reason that you would say it's 80% me and 20% you is you've assigned some responsibility to yourself.
So you've had three months to talk about it, you've come up with a pretty exact mathematical equation of who's responsible, so what is your 20%?
And then she would say, oh, so you just took responsibility, you just pretended to take responsibility to trap me into admitting something, which I don't believe. She would just fog, and she would get aggressive again, right?
Yeah. And then she's just going to say, so you start blaming me again, and just let's stop the conversation.
So then I would say, look I haven't, I've apologized and I'm not pretending, like I really am sorry for that stuff and that was absolutely the wrong thing to do and I genuinely do apologize for that.
And you know, whether you want to do it now or another time, you just know, like just absolutely know that I'm not taking 100% of this.
Because that would be entirely disrespectful to you.
It would be to say that I am the man-god-all-knowing-all-powerful, force, of agency, in
[1:32:53] The relationship and, you're just like a little leaf blowed on the wind. Like no, you make choices and a lot of those choices are good and that's why I married you and that's why I'm happy to have children with you.
But like every human being on the planet, some of your choices are bad.
And I won't take a hundred percent responsibility because if I did take a hundred percent responsibility, I would lose all respect for you And I do respect you.
I know that you make choices and again, I agree with a lot of those choices I disagree with others doesn't mean I'm right or wrong, but you know, we're two different people, But just so you know, I mean I know I've taken things on in the past and like I've said it's all me in the past and I'm sorry for that too because that was unfair to you as well Like, I've been thinking obviously about our relationship a lot and man, I think back to like, I don't know, 15 years ago, I can't believe it's been that long, I'm like, I think back to like 15 years ago and I have memories of, and it doesn't mean I'm right or wrong, I'm just saying I have memories, I have memories of you being a little aggressive and then me...
[1:33:59] Kind of backing down or apologizing or taking ownership.
And I was, you know, I think you're beautiful and I was very excited to be with you and I didn't want to lose you or us.
I mean, I've always admired you, I've always in a way looked up to you, which has obviously good sides and bad sides to it, but I was very excited to be with you and was head over heels in love with you.
And I think I just caved, I caved a lot.
And partly that was me, that was my childhood.
And to be honest, you can be a little bit aggressive when it comes to getting your way.
And that's a double-edged knife, right? It can be fantastic.
I mean, the fact that you are aggressive in getting your way is why you became a psychologist.
[1:34:50] And you can be, whenever I see you with the kids and there's something amiss, you're very fierce in defending the children.
And there's a great aspect to this sort of warrior queen side of you that I find really it's intense and it's admirable but you know it can be a little scary when that I always want that sword pointed at hostile outsiders not loving family members and sometimes it seems like you swing that sword in a bit too wide of an arc and it takes off one or sometimes both of my testicles it feels but I think if way back in the day if I had been like no I'm not taking 100%, responsibility because that would be to lose all respect for you and view you as like a shadow.
Like, you know, if I look at my shadow in the daylight, the shadow's not making any choices.
Like, the shadow goes where I go, the shadow reflects what I do a hundred percent.
The shadow has zero percent responsibility for its shape and movement.
I have one hundred percent responsibility for my shadow's shape and movement.
[1:35:48] But the shadow doesn't exist, right? So nobody has any respect for their shadow because it doesn't have any choices, doesn't make any decisions and doesn't have any self-responsibility or ownership or free will or agency or anything like that.
So I can't, I simply, I can't. I did in the past, and this is my fault and it is my mother's fault and my father's fault and I did, I caved, I caved.
And there was a certain desperation in that, a certain worship of you, which was, no, probably not the very best thing in the known universe.
Although again, there's some really great stuff, really great stuff in it, some really great attachment and romance and sexiness and bonding and all of that, but I was just too desperate to not have you, to be rejected.
I felt, and it's kind of a weird thing, I felt like if I was rejected by you, I'd never be happy with anyone else.
Like that's, what do they call it, oneitis, it's like a disease where there's only one person. Like, if I was rejected by you...
[1:36:48] Then I would never be happy with anyone else. And you had a monopoly over my heart in that way.
And because you had a monopoly over my heart, which I'm not saying it's all you, I mean, my history, my choices, but because you had a monopoly over my heart, I was too terrified to lose you to contradict you.
And because of that, I think a certain amount of vanity I've helped to fuel.
And also, I think you've gotten into your 40s.
And, you know, I say this with love and affection. I'm not saying in this any horrible, negative, hostile way, but, you know, hopefully you'll take some feedback from the guy who's known you as an adult longer than anyone else and who just, you know, really care about you.
But I think you've kind of gotten into your 40s and you haven't practiced much the ability of saying that you were wrong.
And look, everyone's wrong. I'm wrong. I just admitted it. But I don't think that you're particularly good at that.
And I think that's a challenge, a real challenge. Because then, any time there's a problem, it's gotta be 100% me.
And if it's not 100% me, if I don't say it's 100% me and you're completely the victim and I'm totally the bad guy and you did everything right and I did everything wrong, if I don't say that.
[1:38:08] Then you say you're gonna divorce me.
Now, you understand, that's not a very nice experience to say, or to have, it's not just a feeling, it's not just an interpretation, I'm sure you remember this, but it's really not a very nice feeling at all to be threatened with divorce if I don't take the blame for everything.
I mean, if I tried to do that, right, this is just, you know, shoes on the other foot, right?
If I tried to do that and I tried to say to you, you have to accept that you're responsible before all the problems that are marriage or I'm going to divorce you and cut you off without a penny, you would feel pretty punchy and aggressive about that and you'd be pretty angry at that and you'd get very aggressive.
And I can really understand that. And I failed to do that.
[1:38:56] That's my failure and it's been a failure for 15 years. I have failed to do that.
Now, I don't know if I had done that 15 years ago, you might've just tossed me to the curb.
Like 15 years ago when we had our conflicts, and of course we had conflicts pretty early on, right?
So if 15 years ago we'd had these conflicts and I just said, so if I had 15 years ago said, no, of course I'm not going to take 100% responsibility, for our problems because that's ridiculous and that's embarrassing.
It's embarrassing that you would even suggest that, particularly as somebody who knows psychology, the idea that it's all one person's fault is.
Like I'm going to save you from your own vanity and now. Now if I had said 15 years ago, like of course I'm not going to take 100% responsibility for our problems, I'm guessing you would have dumped me.
And but now we have decided we've been together 15 years we have our two wonderful children and now we don't have that choice to just dump each other if we displease each other.
And we also don't have the choice to just not talk to each other.
Like that's not that's not a rational choice. Now if we were just dating and we went on a couple of dates and we didn't like each other we could decide to not talk to each other for the rest of our lives that would be totally fine.
That would be totally fine.
[1:40:13] But, we don't have that choice because we're married and we have children and what we need to do, what we need to do, you and I can fight about 80-20, 70-30, 60-40, 50-50, whatever, but it doesn't matter.
Because what we need to do is we need to wake up, and you know this, and you're better at this than I am, I'm just reminding us both I guess, but we just need to wake up in the morning and we need to say, okay, what's best for our children?
What's best for our children? Is it best for our children that we don't talk and when we do you blame me for things and we fight about 70-30 or 8?
That's not what's best for our children.
What's best for our children is seeing two parents who reason with each other and listen and I mean half the difference is in their conflicts of course, right?
But who, you know, strive with some respect to work it out.
That's what's best for our children. I mean we know that and I don't need to be a psychologist to say that and know for certain that it's true.
And I know I don't have a massive amount of credibility about talking about what's best for our children because I choose to watch stupid movies in the middle of the night rather than get up and spend time with my children in the morning.
So, I get that. I'm not saying this as a guy who's not got faults in the area, but I think if we were to just say...
[1:41:41] We need to organize our life by what's best for our children.
I need to make some changes. I need to spend more time with the children.
I need to help out more with the children. I need to be there in the morning, if that's what's best for you, and I know that it is.
So I need to change my life to do what's better for the children.
[1:42:02] And that's my ownership, that's my responsibility. And that's a very real thing, and I'm not just saying that. I commit to that.
But you, my friend, my lover, my mother of my children, light of my life, love of my heart, bride of my soul, you also need to stop blaming me for everything.
Because what's happening is, you know, our son is watching us.
I mean, children watch their parents like hawks, right? Our son is watching us and he's saying, oh, okay, so the only way to get along with women is to just appease them and let them bully you or let them escalate and threaten you and then just do what they want.
And your daughter, our daughter, of course, is looking at you and saying, oh, so the way that you get things done is you just get aggressive with your husband and you just tell him everything's his fault and you don't take any responsibility and you threaten divorce and that's how you get.
And we don't want that for our kids, do we? We don't want them to grow up with those lessons that either submission without reason or bullying without cause is the way to get things done in a relationship because we need to show them better, we need to be better, we need to elevate what they see, because, you know, it's not going to be long until it's too late to change for them, and that's why I really wanted to have this conversation with you today.
[1:43:23] That's a really good talk, Sergei. I'm afraid that my wife will interrupt me a couple of times, if not multiple times. No, no, but that's why you get an agreement.
No, no, so in negotiation, you get an agreement, right, that we're not gonna interrupt each other, and then if somebody interrupts you, you say, no, no, no, we had an agreement.
Like, you know, when you sign up for cell phone service, they say it's gonna be 40 bucks a month, and then you don't negotiate every month because you already have an agreement. It's just simpler. So you just remind her.
And am I right that basically you, in your speech, you just accepted that basically took all the blame on yourself, no? I'm sorry say again.
You kind of the take all the blame on yourself and basically letting her to, To to continue this thing.
Oh So you think hang on you think that as you I was taking all the blame myself.
Yeah, that's not the case at all No, that's not what I was doing at all But you said that you are going to change right?
Yes But you didn't Expect further change.
What do you mean? I didn't expect her to change. I told I can think of at least five things. I said she needed to do better.
[1:44:41] But uh But i'm not going to demand change from her because what's the point of that?
I mean, how on earth are you supposed to demand change from someone?
All all that's going to happen is they'll either comply if you have power, but resent you, Or they'll pretend to comply and then be passive aggressive or they won't comply at all It's not like you need to Like if you're both overweight weight, you need to lose weight.
You don't nag her to lose weight.
Now even if you're losing weight, there's no point nagging her to lose weight, because you need the change to come from within her own preferences, her own desires, because that's the only way it's sustainable.
Otherwise it's like holding a balloon underwater. As long as you keep applying pressure the balloon stays underwater, the moment you let it go, up it comes, right?
So you take responsibility yourself, and you and I and everyone needs to, there's always things we can improve. So you take responsibility for yourself, absolutely.
And then if she says, wow, you know, he's taking responsibility for himself, that's actually a good thing.
And then over time, she will think about taking responsibility for herself.
Like if you're both overweight and you start losing weight and you're like, wow, I can play pickleball. Wow, I can go rock climbing.
Wow, my knees don't hurt anymore. Wow, I have so much more energy.
At some point, she's going to say, well, gosh, I guess I should, I'm going to lose weight to, like he's inspiring me by losing weight.
Not bullying me, not doing it so that I'll change, right?
[1:46:06] You take ownership for yourself in the hopes, I mean, it's great if it inspires the other person, but that's the only chance of change occurring for them is to be inspired, right?
Right, but I'm afraid she will consider it as a win from her side and just continue doing this. So what, so what?
[1:46:32] You still get to lose weight, don't you?
Let's say that you lose weight, and you get healthier, and you have more energy, and you sleep better, and your joints don't hurt, and your clothes fit better.
You lose weight, and she's like, oh, he's such a loser for losing weight.
You're still losing weight.
Are you not going to lose weight because she might have some sense of triumph?
Are you not going to take responsibility for your own life because she's going to view that as some kind of win, then you're both trapped in not taking responsibility.
Don't let her win. Then she wins, not you. Her entire mindset wins.
[1:47:15] One of the problem that I feel that I've been used, right, in this relationship, and that's the feeling which is hard to overcome. You've been used because you get to stay up late watching movies and sleep in till 10? No, no, no. You just feel like you're being used?
No, that's when she's bullying me.
Uh-huh. And I agree that I have my fault, for sure, yes. That's for sure.
[1:47:48] And I want her to accept that she did something wrong here, at least now.
And just let it slip. It's really hard for me.
Because yes, I understand your point here. Yes, I can accept all of this.
And try to change. But I'm afraid from her mind she will see it as a win again, and she will see it as the one more step to climb into her dominance over me or her, her, her, her, her.
So she will consider it as a win and she will consider that her strategy worked.
Okay. And so what's the alternative?
I don't know. Are you sure you do?
Yeah, like, breaking the marriage, right?
Well, look, I don't know, but I mean, you've been trying for years to get her to stop bullying you and take responsibility, right?
Yeah. Okay, how's that worked out?
[1:48:57] It didn't but okay, so so you understand how frustrating this is from the outside that you tell me for half a decade I've been trying this strategy and it doesn't work.
In fact, I'm worse off now Than when I started right and I say do something different, Do something different You're like someone who's saying well I I eat half a box of chocolates every night and I keep gaining weight And then I say well stop eating the box of chocolates like well, I don't want to do that It's like well, then what are you calling me for?
I'm telling you to do something different because what you're doing it's not only not working it's the opposite of working.
[1:49:30] Yeah and then you say well she's just gonna perceive that as a win you if I take responsibility she's just gonna perceive that as a win and is gonna use it to further dominate me like you have no marriage at the moment you don't talk you don't kiss you don't cuddle you don't hug you don't have sex there's no marriage and I'm saying look every choice you've made has led you to this disaster and I'm saying here's something you can do that's different and then you're saying rather than saying oh gosh that's really interesting you just gave me a big speech about it you debated with my wife in a calm and rational manner and wow what a what a what a great solution at least I'll give that a try at least that's something different you've fallen back into this petty well I don't want to let her win you're not winning nobody's winning who's winning nobody's winning only the children are losing and rather than saying wow this would be a really mature thing to do to take responsibility for myself and that's really good for my kids and that's the best chance of her taking responsibility you dig in in this petty three-year-old kind.
[1:50:31] Of way to be frank well I don't want to let her win man, okay then keep doing what you're doing and then you're gonna end up divorced and then your kids are gonna suffer and you'll be broke and half your stuff is gonna go to lawyers is that what you call winning I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the word winning.
Unless you hate her so much that you just don't want to give an inch even if it means harming your children.
Yeah, you need to be a leader and being a leader means giving up on petty vengeance.
If there's you asked, I mean, you, the beginning, you said, Steph, give me another solution. Right. And then you said, well, that was a really great speech. Right.
And I gave you another solution. Right. And then what's the first thing you said? Did you say thanks? Or did you say what, what did you say?
I Take it we would know one. No, that's not what you said.
I Said she will feel you feel feel that that I've lost and she's won and all that right? Okay.
[1:51:49] You're gonna have to give up some ego here right and you're just gonna have to try and do the right thing You're just going to have to try and do the right thing and whether your wife is inspired by that or kicks you to the curb, at least you'll have the pride and self-respect of having done the right thing.
I know why you watch movies at night, because you'd rather watch movies at night than fight with your wife in the morning.
[1:52:22] Mmm, I'm not I'm I don't know because I'm kind of the I think I enjoy, You enjoy spending time with my wife so you enjoy spending time with you Yes, and I didn't feel like we are trying to avoid her intentionally I Didn't feel like no, but you're choosing movies over spending time with your wife, I mean, every day you sleep until 10, right? I assume, or most days.
But, like, I just want to have my time to myself as well, because I have some interest, right?
And I didn't have this time apart from in the evening.
Well, if you want time for yourself, why on earth would you get married and have children? I don't follow.
I have some time. Can I have some time to myself?
No, you have a couple of hours every night. That's more than most parents will ever get in a week. And you're cut yes, it's less time It's less time with your children.
How do you think your children feel when you don't get up to take care of them?
Or let's say that, you know, you're a night owl and your your daughter is a night owl At least you stay up with her or something like that, right? How do you think your kids feel?
When you don't want to spend time with them in the morning and you'd rather watch some useless movie and sleep in.
[1:53:46] Well, I don't think it's very nice for them, is it? Yeah.
Where's dad? Oh, he was watching a movie. He won't be here until you're halfway through. He won't even wake up till you're halfway through your school day.
[1:54:01] And that's the question priorities, right? What I prioritize more, like spending time with my kids and or have some rest for myself.
I don't understand. And what do you mean have some rest for yourself?
You can't need a couple hours rest every day!
[1:54:19] And you're all about playing the victim here, to be frank, right?
Oh, my wife's a bully and she's doing this. It's like, what about your kids, man?
You and your wife playing out this petty, we're not talking to each other at the expense of your children.
You staying up late watching movies. It's not like you're splitting the atom or inventing some new fusion device here.
You're just watching some dumb movie rather than spending time with your kids.
And you genuinely feel like a victim and you say, Well, my wife doesn't have much empathy for me Well, how much empathy do you have for your children and what they need would they rather spend time with their father? Yes, But you're like no I want to watch a movie I'm such a victim.
[1:55:11] You got to reorient yourself I'm serious about what's best for your children The self-pity parade is drowning out your entire children's needs or not the entirety of them, but a good portion I would say, Yeah, That's the sink I need to go to to that's that's that's that stuff I need to think about And who knows who knows what that does to your wife if you step up and take like one of her major complaints was what?
Do you remember when I said what your complaints? Do you remember what her first complaint or second complaint was?
Not exactly. He doesn't help out with the children enough.
Yeah. Now that sounds fair because you say, no, no, no, I'm there on weekends.
Right? Come on, man. You work from home.
[1:56:02] But, like, I didn't tell that I spend quite some time with the kids, I'm reading with the kids, I'm trying to help my boy, because he has a problem with reading, and I spend quite some time reading every day, and I didn't say... Okay, but that's more educational.
When was the last time, when was the last time, when was the last time you went out for an afternoon or an evening with one of your children?
Almost every day. Oh, every day? No, one of your children?
Yes. Almost every day I go with my daughter to just stroll around.
Okay, and how long do you stroll around for? At least 20 minutes. 20 minutes?
Yeah. That's not much. And my boy just doesn't like to walk, although I am trying to ask him to go.
So we play games together. We I think I spending quite some time and that was one more point to work from home to spend my time with my kids.
[1:57:01] Okay, I've been a patient education and a 20-minute walk with your daughter, Sir, I've heard some educational stuff at a 20-minute walk with your daughter, and and listen I'm not if you if you're content with, How much time you're spending with your kids and you find that the movie is more important than spending time with them in the morning If if you're content with that, I'm not gonna argue with you because it's your life, right?
I don't have any independent footage of your day with your children.
So it seems to me that you and your wife are not putting your children's needs first, because if you were, this ridiculous three-month not talking to each other nonsense would not never have happened.
That's for sure. That's for sure. So, and also the fact that you do prefer to watch movies rather than spend time with your children in the morning, and just be on a different schedule from them as a whole, and a different schedule from your family as a whole.
I do think it's relatively important for husbands and wives to go to bed together because it says that you're on the same schedule roughly.
[1:58:04] And that you enjoy time with each other And so when your wife is upset because you say well tell me when you're finished brushing your teeth and i'll i'll come to bed, She probably feels rejected because you don't want to go To bed with her at night and you don't want to get up with her in the morning, Probably she's I mean that would be the case isn't it?
I would rather watch a movie than spend time with you is kind of a rejection, right?
[1:58:47] Now I understand it's kind of tough to ask someone to have empathy for someone who's been a bully and threatened divorce.
I get all of that and I'm I'm just trying to give you anything that might change your mind about being a victim.
[1:59:01] Yeah, I think it's a very powerful source, yeah, I really appreciate it.
And the fact that you two are engaged in this ridiculous standoff at the expense of your children absolutely and completely and totally has to stop today.
[1:59:20] Because you know how destructive, you both know how destructive this is for your children and you're letting each other's dislike of each other interfere with what's best for your children I can't even tell you how much you're going to regret that in the years to come.
If this continues, and it's already bad that it has, if this continues, then your children will be incredibly susceptible to peer pressure.
They'll have no respect for you as parents because they know that you you're on this ridiculous standoff with each other each waiting for the other person to make the first move, and pretending like it doesn't matter as much or like they're looking at you like you're a bunch of retarded children in charge of them.
I guarantee you, especially at seven and five, if kids are incredibly perceptive at that, I mean incredibly perceptive overall, but it's not like they're six months and two.
They're, I mean, what do your kids think of this marriage that's going on at the last couple of.
[2:00:22] Months? I don't think it's going very well, that's for sure.
What do you think, what do you think their experience is of you guys basically saying, well ask your mother to pass me the salt.
I'm not talking to her directly, I know it's not that bad, but in general they know that you guys don't have a functioning marriage at the moment and that you you're not willing to fix it.
Yeah. Okay, so what's that like for them?
It's a trauma. It's terrifying. Why is it terrifying?
Because they need to see us as a support for them, not as a broken couple, right?
Yes, and also they're terrified that the family is breaking up.
Yeah. So you guys are like actively torturing your children.
Yeah. In my view.
And you're like, well I can't improve things because then my wife's gonna think of it as a win and I'm like, god damn man, it's your kids, it's about your kids!
[2:01:42] Who you're letting be raised by a narcissist! So you've gotta do something to change the equation and you can't change her so I'm giving you and out to change yourself and you're like no because then the person I don't respect at all is going to think of it as a win and like well then you're both as petty as each other like you're not better than her if you're letting her dictate whether you do the right thing or not how on earth are you even one percent better than her.
[2:02:18] Well, I could do something better and work to save the marriage and gain some respect back for my children, but then my wife's going to look at me like triumphantly, so I'm not going to do any of that.
It's like, come on, man, be a leader.
And I hate to say grow up because, you know, I have sympathy, but you're in your forties and you've been listening to this show for a while.
You know that you can't let petty people dictate your commitment to virtue, right? And what's best for your children.
Now if you improve and you improve and prove and and you're better and and and your wife then walks out on you, well that was going to happen anyway but at least it's happened with honor.
[2:03:02] Yeah, that makes sense.
And you can look and say, well, in the lead up to the end of the marriage, I did everything possible that I could to try and save it.
And that gives you closure and that means that your heart will be open to a new relationship and your children will retain some respect for you.
I hope that won't happen, right? And I think that the best chance of it is to stop this ridiculous battle at the most shallow end of the silly pool and just commit to taking ownership, taking responsibility, doing the right thing.
And then if your wife says you're doing something bad or wrong, like you have the empirical evidence of your own better actions and she won't be able to bully you.
You see, she's able to bully you because you give her bullying, you take that as an excuse to be petty yourself.
[2:03:55] So, if you're not petty, if you do the right thing, then when she tries to bully you, it won't work.
In the same way that, you know, this girl in my 20s, when she tried to act superior to me when I was a software executive and she was a secretary, it just didn't work.
Because the empirical evidence was just so overwhelming.
It's literally like if you're standing out there in the middle of a sunny day and your wife says it's midnight, you wouldn't fight with her.
You'd be like, no it's not.
Because the evidence is overwhelming, right? So you need to shore up your own ethics, your own commitment to what's best for your children.
So that if your wife tries to put you down and you know for a certain fact that you've been doing the right things, it won't work.
And that's the best way to overcome bullying. Now maybe if she can't bully you, she'll just end the marriage, right?
Okay, but at least you will have stopped being bullied.
[2:04:55] And then if she decides to, listen, here's the worst case scenario, she decides to end the marriage and her bullying still works on you, then you'll get taken apart, right?
You need to do the right thing and then maybe she'll overcome her own bullying or whatever is going on and she'll grow with you or something like that.
[2:05:13] Or you will grow and you'll have the self-confidence of not being, somebody who lets your wife dictate your moral standards and then you will have a much more civilized end to the marriage otherwise she's just gonna bully you through family courts probably from here to eternity right so you need to outgrow being bullied and in order to do that you need to have genuine pride at your own choices and that means do the right thing oh she's going to be triumphant about me doing the right thing so the important thing is that if you do the right thing and she keeps fighting you first of all you'll see it and you'll know it and secondly the children will see it because if she is an unrepentant bully, your children need to see that.
Now you can't just sit down there and say well you know mom's just this unrepentant bully blah blah blah but if if they see you doing the right thing and they see your wife, I hope she doesn't, but if they do end up seeing her just continuing to put you down and attack you then they will see the reality of who she is and that probably is going to be their best defense against the transfer of her personality structured to them. Does that make sense?
You do it for your kids too, and really primarily.
[2:06:33] Sound like a plan? Yeah. Thank you very much, Steph.
You're welcome. Is there anything you wanted to say here at the end? Sorry?
Sorry that I was kind of the resistance. content. No, I appreciate it.
I love what you did. You were honest.
No, what you did was perfect. No, you were honest because you weren't saying, like you were genuinely pushing back and that's good.
I needed to see that because, you know, I mean, if you never say where it hurts, the doctor can't help you, right? So what you did was perfect.
You were honest, you were direct, and I really appreciate it.
And I respect you for being that honest about your pushback.
Thank you so much. So it was very powerful and I will be thinking about this a lot and I'll try to, I'll do my best to actually follow your advice.
I think that's really helpful, that's really helpful. Thank you so much.
You're welcome, brother, and keep me posted about how it's going and of course, if your wife wants to talk, I'm certainly happy to chat if that's of any interest to her.
But yeah, keep me posted and I wish you the very best and I think this is your best chance going forward and I look forward to hearing how it goes.
Thanks a lot. Take care, man. Bye. Thank you. Bye.
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