0:00 - The Burden of a Sexless Marriage
44:14 - The Roots of Abandonment
47:33 - Love and Manipulation
1:08:46 - The Struggle for Empathy
1:17:47 - The Weight of Domestic Duties
1:34:11 - Marriage or Roommates?
2:12:11 - Red Flags and Realizations
2:28:03 - Acknowledging Past Mistakes
In this detailed interview, the caller reaches out to Stefan to discuss his ongoing struggles in a sexless marriage that has persisted for the last six years. The caller recounts his deep commitment to his children, highlighting that he views divorce as not an option, despite his personal dissatisfaction. He explains the challenges he faces in initiating intimacy with his wife, emphasizing that the sex they do have lacks joy and connection. He describes his previous attempts to engage in discussions with his wife about their sexual compatibility, which usually end in dissatisfaction and feelings of being dismissed.
Stefan encourages the caller to reflect on the history of his relationship, prompting him to share details about their initial attraction and how it developed during their university days. The caller mentions that their physical attraction was paramount in the beginning, but hints at an emotional void that developed over time. He acknowledges that he dominated the sexual initiation in their relationship from the start, which set a concerning precedent for their future intimacy.
As the conversation evolves, Stefan encourages the caller to consider the broader implications of their backgrounds and personalities. He inquires whether the wife had any previous experiences that might explain her disinterest in sex. The caller then reveals that despite his wife being aware of her low libido and the potential hormonal imbalances contributing to it, she has consistently refused to seek medical advice, which has left him feeling frustrated.
The discussion continues as Stefan delves into the dynamics of the caller's childhood and parental relationships. The caller describes how he was raised, touching upon themes of abandonment and emotional distance. Notably, he shares that his parents had a controlling relationship, indicating that their union lacked emotion and empathy, traits that were not modeled for him growing up. This background leads to a cathartic realization that his patterns in adulthood might be echoes of his childhood experiences.
As the interview progresses, Stefan directs the conversation back to the caller's marriage, emphasizing the need for emotional intimacy over physical desire. He questions whether the caller's expectations for a physical relationship can flourish without deep emotional connection. The caller reflects on how this emotional distance has created a cycle of disdain and elusiveness in their marriage—a cycle that needs breaking.
The dialogue becomes increasingly pointed, addressing the hypocrisy of the couple's behaviors and attitudes. Stefan guides the caller through a role-play scenario, demonstrating how mutual respect and accountability are crucial in any relationship. He implores the caller to recognize that they need to cultivate a partnership that values sincerity, honesty, and personal growth—both individually and together.
The conversation culminates in a profound understanding of the need for counseling and open dialogues about personal flaws and vulnerabilities. The caller acknowledges the necessity of improving their household dynamic for the sake of their children and emphasizes the urgency of rekindling emotional and physical intimacy in the marriage.
In conclusion, Stefan summarizes the key insights gained during the discussion, encouraging the caller to confront these issues head-on and seek marital counseling. He emphasizes that understanding their own histories and patterns is a critical step toward building a healthier relationship moving forward. The caller leaves with a renewed perspective on why addressing these relational dynamics is essential for both his personal fulfillment and the well-being of his family.
[0:00] Hello, Stefan. I've been contemplating contacting you for almost two years. I have been in a sexless marriage for the past six years. I do not see divorce as an option since we have two kids together, and I will sacrifice all of my pleasure and happiness for the well-being of my children. I tried talking to my wife about this multiple times. Eventually, we end up having sex, but there is no joy or connection coming from her. It seems like it's a chore she has to do occasionally. generally.
[0:28] It was always me who initiated sex for the first five years. About 95% of the time, I would be shut down by, it's all you think about. I'm tired. I have a headache. It's late. So I gave up and stopped initiating sex. Now, I'm lucky to have sex once every two to three months. I have resorted to watching porn for sexual release. I would like to add that I am sole full breadwinner of the family.
[0:57] I'm in my mid-30s, and she is in her early 30s. She does not have to work or worry about any bills. I take care of all of the taxes, paperwork, billing, health insurance, etc. I can say we are middle class, and we are not struggling financially. I have tried to move up in my career to supervisor or management position, but I don't have the drive to or feel like I can because I get belittled and told what to do constantly by my wife I can honestly say that I know I am providing for her and protecting her protecting our family in a time of need I would do anything for her if she asked but she refuses to do the same for me I would love to have a conversation with you to discuss my flaws and what I may be doing wrong in order to fix this i honestly can't go on living in a sexless marriage for any longer thank you for your time and all the knowledge you are bringing forward i'm.
[2:00] Yeah i'm so sorry about this situation it's uh it's very very tough as a man of course it would be tough for a woman i'm sure as well so i really do sympathize and uh i'm hopefully we can do some useful stuff with this not insignificant challenge so i guess if you can tell me a little bit about out the history of the relationship, we can take it from there.
[2:22] Yeah, so we met at our university here, and I ended up talking to her, getting her number, started conversating, and eventually led up to a relationship. After our relationship for a year...
[2:43] Hang on, hang on. I'm so sorry, I asked you for the big picture, then I'm just asking for detail. Why did you want her number?
[2:49] Um i found her attractive.
[2:51] Okay and and is it i mean when you say attractive did she have a great laugh did she have a great aura did she have a sparkle in her eyes or was she pretty and shapely and that kind of stuff for the most part.
[3:08] She had a really nice smile but she was in great shape and had great facial features. And she was one of the other things, I'm Eastern European descent, and she was the same descent as myself. So culturally we're related.
[3:27] So percentage at the beginning, and I'm not criticizing this, I'm just curious, right? So percentage at the beginning, that was mostly physical.
[3:36] Yeah, I would say for majority of my relationships, if I'm going to approach a woman, it has to be physical. I have to be 100% physically attracted to them. And if it's not, I wouldn't really bother.
[3:49] Wait, so you got a hot girl who turned out to be lazy? That's unprecedented in the history of humanity. Anyway, sorry. So how did things go from there?
[4:02] We had a great relationship from the get-go. so i ended up asking their parents for her hand in marriage after a year of dating and doing that what.
[4:15] Was your sex life well how long did it take you guys to have sex and what was your sex life like in the first.
[4:20] Year i hate to sort of pry but that's.
[4:22] The sort of central issue that you're dealing with right.
[4:24] Yeah yeah it was consistent so um whenever we when i whenever i had the urges or whenever we needed to it was done so a couple times a week well.
[4:35] Whenever you You had the urges. What about her?
[4:38] It never came up.
[4:40] What do you mean it never came up?
[4:42] She never really initiated or wanted to. It was just more from recalling. I always had a high sex drive, so it was just me wanting it.
[4:55] So, sorry, from the very beginning, she didn't initiate sex?
[4:59] No.
[5:00] Well, did you talk about that?
[5:05] No it depends what you mean initiation so we can start off like kissing and it eventually goes on leads to that so there's been times where she did initiate it so i was wrong on that portion yeah.
[5:19] Okay and what percentage uh would you say you initiated with the idea of sex because i mean obviously you can kiss your wife without it needing to say leading directly to sex i mean Let's say you're at a wedding or something. How often would she approach you with the goal or desire of sexual activity? Rather than just kissing leading to sex.
[5:45] About 10% or less. She never had a high sex drive herself, so it was just me that was the one that needed it.
[5:58] It okay and what was your i guess relationship to her not particularly wanting sex you wanting sex and sex happening then mostly as the result of your needs well.
[6:13] It was never denied so it was still enjoyable she was in the mood for it so it.
[6:21] Was no but she didn't initiate right right?
[6:23] Yeah. Okay.
[6:24] And again, sorry to be so detail-oriented, but just because it is the central issue, did she have orgasms during the time that you were dating?
[6:37] Yes, but it wasn't on occasion, on an every time basis.
[6:43] And roughly what percentage of the time would you say she had an orgasm when you had sexual activity?
[6:51] 50% of the time or less.
[6:56] Okay, so did she have any conversations with you, or what was her relationship with the fact that she had a low sex drive and you had a high sex drive?
[7:11] We just worked it out. I was just settling down. I was understanding of her situation. but and my thing was looking at some of your shows i asked her like a did you have any, that did you have a history of anything that happened to you when you were a child or did anything happen to you but she denied anything that occurred so i was just trying to figure out why her sex drive or libido was so low and.
[7:36] Has she at any time had a hormone test blood test like whatever they would do for this kind of stuff has she ever had herself checked out for or anything that might be awry with her physiology?
[7:50] No, I've been begging her to do that. I'm like, I'll get the doctor here, just go and do it, but she's refusing to. She doesn't want to.
[7:58] Okay.
[7:58] She knows she needs to, though, but she's refusing to. She's fully aware there's something imbalanced hormonally.
[8:07] And when I ask these questions, I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just looking for clarity. So when you say that your relationship was great for the first year and then you asked her parents for her hand in marriage and good for you by the way for doing it relatively quickly this like dating forever is like this new thing like we're immortal that's how vampires would date but um what was uh tell me about the great things about your relationship in the first year that you wanted to marry her.
[8:33] We pretty much do activities together i was very active so we would go hiking and uh, go-to shows and things like that. Not things where you just go to the movie, sit down and indulge yourself. So stay active, go hiking, do archery, multiple kinds of sports. I take her to a gun range, things like that.
[9:00] But she's a fitness girl to begin with, right? Because you said she was in great shape.
[9:04] Yeah, but she was naturally in great shape. so after oh she's one of these genetically.
[9:09] Blessed women with like great curves.
[9:11] No maintenance yeah so oh man you're kind.
[9:15] Of doomed with that right okay go on.
[9:17] Yeah so after we got married it's just like all the hiking and everything dropped down like i wouldn't go hiking with my friends anymore i told her she's like no i don't want to just.
[9:26] We just went straight from uh uh so.
[9:29] So how.
[9:30] Long was your engagement.
[9:31] Uh our engagement was for a year for.
[9:34] A year oh how How come so long?
[9:38] The wedding planning and everything. We had a decent-sized wedding, so it was about 300 people.
[9:46] When you say the wedding planning, you mean what my fiancé wanted, right?
[9:52] Yeah. I mean, let's be frank.
[9:54] Man to man, we don't give a shit about weddings, really.
[9:57] Exactly.
[9:57] And it's fine. I think that it's wonderful that women do, and when it's all happening, it's a lot of fun. but the idea that okay how much how much did your wedding cost it.
[10:09] Was about 54 55 000.
[10:12] Holy crap, if you're getting your life started with your bride i can certainly think of slightly better uses of 55 000 than flowers and finger food in a hall but all right yeah.
[10:28] And she didn't know at the time i took out some credit card loans to pay off all the balances and everything else so.
[10:32] Okay, so did you have conversations about the cost of the wedding? Because I don't want to speak for you and correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume that you, my friend, did not want to spend $55,000 on a wedding.
[10:47] Yes, but it was a cultural responsibility for the groomsman to pay for the wedding. So all she had to do was pay for the dress and pretty much be there.
[11:00] Okay, you're not answering my question, though. I understand that it's a cultural responsibility for the groom to pay for the wedding, but because you're the one who's paying, you should keep control over the financial costs, right?
[11:12] Yep.
[11:13] So what were the conversations you had about how expensive the wedding was? You weren't comfortable with it. You didn't want to pay that much. So what conversations did you have with your fiancé about the cost of the wedding?
[11:26] Well, I tossed up the idea about a destination wedding, about having a smaller venue, less people. so it would cost a fraction of the price but she wanted all her family and friends and everybody else to rejoice in the event so it was kind of out of the option.
[11:43] No so but what was the negotiation i mean i want i want you know sure we all want right i mean like but if i go to the car dealership and i check off every optional feature known to man it becomes eye-blindingly expensive right so So, you know, it's sort of an empathy thing. Like, it is, you know, there's this old joke when someone says, I'll pay for dinner. And then you say, great, I'll have, you know, two entrees, three desserts and three meals to go. Like, it's a joke, right? Like, if somebody's being generous and then you immediately say, well, I'm going to get the maximum. That's a joke because it indicates a lack of empathy. Like, if you're paying and she's like, great, I can get everything I want, regardless of his preferences, that's a marker for a lack of empathy. So if the person who's paying says, I want to pay less, that's the beginning of a negotiation. So what I want to know is how did that negotiation work? You said, it's too expensive. We need a smaller venue. We need fewer people. I don't want to spend this much. And what did she say?
[12:55] Well, I didn't necessarily say that to her. So what were we financially agreed on?
[13:01] Hang on, hang on. Sorry, sorry if I misunderstood something. I thought you said that you had brought up a smaller venue and fewer people and a destination. Vacation, destination marriage.
[13:10] As a different wedding option, but she didn't want to go with that. That was just a different alternate. Instead of doing a big wedding, we do a small wedding, smaller venue.
[13:18] So you brought up spending less money and how did she respond to that?
[13:24] It wasn't necessarily focused on spending less money. It was more of a different type of wedding and she didn't want that pathway. She wanted to just have a large wedding.
[13:34] Can you understand why when you say a smaller venue and fewer people, when we're talking about the excessive costs of the wedding, that I might interpret that as you wanting to spend less money?
[13:48] Yeah. What are you doing here?
[13:50] Like you're spinning me around. Why are you spinning me around?
[13:55] My thinking, she didn't understand I wanted to spend less money. I wasn't specific with her. she thought I would just I wanted a beach like a small beach wedding and that was ideally for me.
[14:06] Sure okay you're a guy so we just want to get it over with and get to the honeymoon okay so so, help me understand I still don't understand the negotiations that you had or or if you never said I want to spend less money the question is why because because that's kind of dishonest right Right. Like if it's kind of dishonest to not say I'm I'm really not comfortable. I'd rather use this money as a down payment on a house or like I don't feel super comfortable with this one day thing. I think it's a bit excessive. And, you know, and you have a conversation about it. Right.
[14:45] Yeah.
[14:46] So why not? And I'm not criticizing you. I'm just curious as to why you didn't have that direct conversation.
[14:51] Because I thought I could make it work.
[14:53] Why did you have to make it work? Why not just have a conversation?
[15:01] It was honestly for her happiness.
[15:04] Well, I get that. But can she be happy? Right? So the reason I'm starting is everything's at the beginning, right?
[15:13] Yeah.
[15:14] So you guys are not negotiating about sex, right? She's doing what she wants, regardless of your happiness, right?
[15:21] Yep.
[15:22] And this is the same thing with the wedding planning. so how did she get you in a position where you focused on her happiness and she didn't have to focus on your comfort that's my question how did you get into that position um.
[15:41] Most like it was going to be an argument if i brought it up so i i'd rather avoid it so like okay we'll make it happen so.
[15:47] All right so here's the point where we go to your childhood because you have to be primed for this, long before you meet this woman. So how did your parents negotiate things?
[16:03] It was mostly my dad making the decisions. My mom was there, but I don't think she really made the decisions in our family other than small choices here and there.
[16:19] And were they happy with that?
[16:23] They seem like they're in a happy relationship.
[16:25] Okay they're married today and with regards to your mother and you how did things go when you had differences of opinion because you know it's natural and inevitable that you're going to have differences of opinion with your parents and how did that go yeah.
[16:42] Um they whenever we had a disagreement opinion they will stick with their opinion and there's no way for me to convince them to change their mind.
[16:53] Oh, so you grew up kind of helpless to negotiate. You couldn't negotiate with your parents.
[17:00] Pretty much.
[17:02] Okay. And how were you punished if you did something your parents didn't approve of or like, or you disobeyed them or something?
[17:11] Um, I don't recall being punished when I was younger. Um, They told me they never hit me or spanked me other than one time when I was very little. So, yeah, I was never really punished. And about half of my life, I wasn't really living with my parents.
[17:33] Oh, go on.
[17:39] They pretty much migrated to America when I was in Eastern Europe living with my grandparents.
[17:48] Oh, gosh. I'm so sorry. What age were you?
[17:53] It was age six to ten.
[17:56] Age six to ten? They left you alone for almost half a decade?
[18:02] It was more, I was almost seven, so seven to ten, yeah.
[18:06] Oh, gosh. Gosh. And tell me what happened? What circumstances brought that about?
[18:15] I was, you know, living the American dream. They wanted to come here and prosper. And because of paperwork issues, I was stuck behind it. So they told me.
[18:27] Are you saying that they came to work in America and for some reason they were unable to bring their child?
[18:35] Yes.
[18:37] Look, obviously I'm no expert, but that doesn't seem believable to me. I don't see how it could be the case that parents are not allowed to bring their child to a country that they're legally allowed to live and work in.
[18:59] I think they might have had to fake some paperwork in order to get asylum in America.
[19:06] Asylum?
[19:07] Yeah.
[19:09] Asylum, were they living, I mean, you don't have to tell me the country, but were they fleeing a dictatorship or political persecution?
[19:16] It was for political persecution reasons. But once they got to America, they were working there and they started life here.
[19:27] Okay. Okay. And so they were fleeing particular persecution in your home country, and they've applied for asylum in America, right?
[19:41] Yeah.
[19:42] Okay. And then you were left with your grandmother for three or four years, right?
[19:48] Yeah, I was with my grandparents, and I remember spending time with them playing games and activities, but remembering childhood with my parents, I really don't remember much with them at all.
[20:04] So you said you remembered playing games with them, you mean your parents, like when you were little? Yeah.
[20:10] I know my dad was constantly working, so I never saw him. I mostly grew up with my mom when she was home, but other than that, it was my grandparents. I was raised by them.
[20:24] Okay. I'm sorry for this. It's a little confusing, but that's fine. I mean, this is your life, your story. Did your parents explain to you what was happening? Did you see them at all over those couple of years?
[20:36] No, I did not.
[20:36] Did they write to you on a consistent basis? Did they stay in touch through phone or email or Skype or letter?
[20:45] I think through phone calls, maybe once a year, twice a year.
[20:49] Oh, come on. Phone calls once or twice a year? The hell is wrong with these people? Yeah. Well, okay, sympathy evaporated completely. Just right, like, okay, political persecution, whatever, that's tough. But once or twice a year, what the hell? Like, please help me understand this.
[21:18] Well, my dad has never been like the physical type, so I've never gotten like, I love you or anything like that from him.
[21:27] Never been the physical type. and so he doesn't really like kids doesn't really like having kids doesn't really express any affection doesn't seek out their company doesn't enjoy their presence do i have that right.
[21:42] He kind of does with the grandchildren i've seen but.
[21:44] No no you you you grandkids are easy grandkids are no test of anyone, myself yes.
[21:53] Never any like he would never reach out like hey how's it going or a thing like that That's always me.
[22:00] Uh-huh. So you see the pattern, right? Like you have to initiate affection, and you're a lot of times rebuffed.
[22:10] Yeah.
[22:12] Same with your wife, same with your dad, right? Obviously, completely different series of activity, but...
[22:18] Okay. I see the connection there, yeah.
[22:24] Sorry, have you seen the before? I just want to know where we're at in terms of insight.
[22:29] No i never thought of that before okay.
[22:31] So why did he have children, I mean, if you don't particularly enjoy spending time with children, you don't particularly like children, why would, you know, if I don't like dogs, I won't get a dog. It's not that complicated. I won't get a dog and then just keep it at home all the time and ignore it.
[22:54] Maybe it was just a thing to do. People reproduce and...
[22:57] No, it's your mom.
[23:01] Okay.
[23:01] Your mom wanted kids. Your dad went along. Your fiancé wanted a big wedding. And you went along.
[23:09] All right.
[23:10] Am I wrong?
[23:12] No, you're right.
[23:13] Okay.
[23:14] Because I remember my mom didn't mention at one point she wanted another child, and my dad didn't want to.
[23:19] And so are you an only child?
[23:22] No, I'm a sibling of two. So I have a sister, younger.
[23:28] Okay, got it. And she was left with your grandparents too, so at least you had a sibling with you.
[23:35] She actually went with them.
[23:37] Oh, no, no. Oh, you're killing me. Your parents took your sister with them to America and left you behind?
[23:52] Yeah.
[23:53] So they were allowed to bring their kids.
[23:59] Yeah, but they told me it was just they can only bring one.
[24:03] So, OK, I don't believe that at all. I mean, I'm no expert. I could be totally wrong. I've never heard of anything like that, that you can come to America, but you can only bring one child and you have to leave your other child somewhere else. I've never heard of such a thing.
[24:29] Yeah, I never really questioned them or anything they've told me. It's like, okay, that's the truth. That's what I'm going to go with.
[24:39] Oh, my gosh. I mean, you really were abandoned. And I could hear the sadness and the hurt in your voice, right? I mean, so you were really left behind, abandoned, while the family, not just your parents, the family went to America for a better life. And you were stuck in your grandmother's tchotchke-laden apartment, right?
[25:00] Yeah.
[25:03] Oh, my gosh. That's wild. It's wild that it happened. And it's wild, the story that was told.
[25:16] And growing up now, like even my wife noticed, my parents put favoritism towards my sister than myself. I always knew this. I was just like, I'm the boy in the family. I'm supposed to get it harder, rougher. So it's okay.
[25:31] Right. I'm just out of rank curiosity, right? I'm just curious here. Immigration. U.S. only bring one child. Only allowed. I got to bring one child. Because, you know, this family unification thing seems to be quite important.
[25:55] Yeah. This was like in the late 90s, so.
[26:03] Yeah, I can't see anything about this. Yeah, it's all plural. Children, children, bringing children, sons and daughters to live in the US. Again, I can't, you know, I'm always hesitant because there's always, you know, someone who's like, well, no, but back in the 90s, like, whatever, right? But it just seems, it's cold-hearted. It's completely cold-hearted.
[26:39] And I'll tell you why. Because even if we grant what I assume is a pure lie, even if for some bizarre wrinkle in space-time, even if your parents are completely correct and they were desperate to have you come with them, they had to choose one child. Your sister was younger and more dependent, so they needed to bring her or maybe she needed medical treatment for something in the States and they were incredibly sad and sorry to leave you behind and they got lost in a bureaucratic maze of paperwork who work and you know like you know we're all just trying to live through asshole government mandates as a whole right so so even if we even if we grant everything that they're saying is true, which i don't believe for a second but let's just say uh we'll grant them that that they were helpless and they could only bring one child they were fleeing the gestapo or the stasi in in your, in their country and they they had to flee under cover of the night were only allowed to bring one child, even if we grant all of that, which I don't believe, but even if we grant all of that, they're still incredibly cold-hearted. Do you know why?
[28:00] They didn't keep in touch.
[28:01] Yeah, they didn't keep in touch.
[28:03] Yeah.
[28:03] They didn't explain it to you all. They didn't caress you and say, we are heartbroken, you can't come with us. We will do everything we can to keep in touch. We will bring you here as soon as humanly possible. Like, all the things that even halfway decent parents would do when abandoning a child in a dangerous country.
[28:24] Yeah, but I was always aware, like, my parents were a little bit of cold-blooded. Like, they didn't have much feelings. I didn't have much emotional attachment or anything, so it was just part of my life.
[28:38] And what else? Did your mother work? I mean, you said both of them only called you once or twice a year, right?
[28:46] I was a little kid. I don't remember her working. She's just been a stay-at-home mom and just taking care of the household, cleaning, just the basic chores.
[28:56] Well, stay-at-home, yes. Mom, not so much No standards, no rules, no enforcement No feedback No affection Stay.
[29:06] Home to go shopping, that's all it is Stay home.
[29:10] Spend money That's the way it is Your dad married a lazy woman Yeah And you married?
[29:21] Yep, I didn't think she was lazy at first, but I'm taking all the responsibilities and slowly I'm thinking it's me making her lazy since I'm not giving her things to do.
[29:39] Well, no, but people who have energy don't just get handed things to do. People who have drive and ambition and self-respect and affection.
[29:56] They don't just wait like a log on the street just for someone to come and roll them over. They have their own motive power. And listen, I just wanted to mention, so you understand that we are tragic brothers in this story, in that I was left behind with even, it was strange, it was a friend of mine's grandparents, I didn't even know them. I was left behind for...
[30:25] Uh quite some time in canada and my family left and then my brother was in a pretty great home in england with actual relatives for a couple of years and i was trying to wrangle my mother's craziness uh on my own for a couple of years and i got no contact from anyone nobody called nobody wrote uh nobody of course visited uh and uh it was a pretty brutal it was a pretty brutal lesson in the lie of automatic family caring, intimacy, connection. I was abandoned, left behind, and my family, well, my mom originally went to Germany, my brother went to England, my mother came back, I lived with her, and my brother stayed in England for years with a family that I really liked, who were relatives. And yeah, nobody contacted, nobody i mean they knew my mom's was extremely unstable nobody ever um cared so i i do understand this coldness and i i do understand that feeling of being left behind while everyone is being sucked up to a sky party of funsies right yeah but it's.
[31:41] Not like i was sad to say my grandparents i I love them to death. I would say they're more family, more parent figures to me than my own parents.
[31:53] Well, your grandparents on which side of the family?
[31:57] They're on my mother's side.
[31:59] Okay. So they raised your mother?
[32:05] Yes.
[32:06] So they can't be that great. and also why wouldn't they say to your mother you have to call your son, you can't just leave him here and call him once or twice a year, Get off your ass, pick up your phone, it's free! For God's sakes. Why wouldn't they insist, that their daughter call their grandchild, and she would listen?
[32:49] That's because they communicated to them as much as I did. So it was just like every two years, or once or twice Every year, that's when they would talk to her.
[32:58] No, no, you don't understand what I'm saying. So you're saying, well, but they only talked to their daughter once or twice a year. But that's not the point. The point is that their daughter had left her son in their care and gone to the other side of the world. And so they would say, you must call her, him, sorry, you must call him regularly. Regularly, daily at the beginning to reassure him that he's still part of the family, that you're thinking of him, that he matters to you, that you care. And you're saying, so it's about even if they didn't want to talk to their own daughter that much for whatever reason, it's kind of weird to me, but even if they didn't want to talk to their own daughter, they would still insist that she call you on a regular basis.
[33:51] Yeah just it just never happened i don't know if there's a time zone difference.
[33:55] No but it was no no no no no no none of that it's none of that it.
[34:01] Was just because she's lazy.
[34:02] Well i i don't know the reason why okay uh i don't know the reason why well i mean we can say lazy and it has some value to it but the relationship between being lazy and being depressed, is perhaps important to get into that. So what was the moral of the events, right? So there are the events that happened to us, and then there is the moral of the events, right? So when your family left and barely stayed in contact at all for years, what did that mean to you as a kid?
[34:43] I had to be more independent, self-sufficient. So I didn't have, my grandpa was older, so it was just me learning how to survive with the other kids. So I would just be protecting myself and not relying on others.
[35:01] Sorry, what do you mean? I mean, when you say your grandpa was older, what does that mean? In sort of he couldn't protect you?
[35:10] No, just, you know how most dads are out playing with their kids. and sometimes he participated in activities. He was older, so he couldn't do that.
[35:19] Was he unwell or arthritic or just out of energy?
[35:23] He's in a wheelchair, so he's moving both legs.
[35:28] Why is he in a wheelchair? Sorry, you mentioned.
[35:33] Oh, he was an orphan when he was younger, and when he was... He pretty much grew up by himself at the age of six. He was kicked out of the house, but what he would do is like he messed around the train tracks one time and he got his legs sliced off at a young age.
[35:48] Oh, gosh. Yeah, I knew a guy like that when I was a kid. Oh, so wait. So your grandfather was abandoned at the age of six?
[36:02] Yeah.
[36:03] And you were abandoned at the age of?
[36:08] Six. Yeah.
[36:10] See these patterns, right? yep yeah and at least your grandfather i suppose was able to uh get married and have kids but this is uh they kind of been great right that's that's a huge amount of of trauma to go through and you know maybe if you do a lot of therapy and so on but eastern europe is not exactly a therapy friendly culture if i remember rightly so i mean your grandfather would have had a huge amount of unprocessed trauma right yeah.
[36:44] And he's honestly the one i expected the most out of everybody in the family so him and i always talked and with my dad it just like it's more of just like work conversation or if he needs help here and there but that's it like we can't we never right.
[37:03] Right how long have you been listening to what i do.
[37:11] I think for like 11 years.
[37:17] And have you ever had a more direct conversation with your parents about some of the messes they made?
[37:27] No, I have not. Most of the time, whenever I bring up their mistakes and everything else, they play the victim card, or my mother does.
[37:36] Okay, and so?
[37:39] She gets emotional, starts crying, and it doesn't go anywhere.
[37:44] Sorry, why doesn't it go anywhere?
[37:47] Uh, because she starts, uh, getting very emotional and starts crying.
[37:53] And so I don't know, like, this is not a law of physics. You just, you would say to her like, whoa, it's about me. Come on. I contact I'm up here. Don't, don't fall into self-pity. Don't, don't cry. I mean, talk to me. This is about my upset, not yours. You just require her to focus on you rather than pull this manipulative garbage, right? But you know what, you fold and look, I'm not trying to criticize, but your mother cries and you're like, well, it's the law of nature that if a woman cries, a man has to shut up.
[38:28] I just, mostly, I don't want to hurt her or her to get more emotional and start crying.
[38:33] I'm sorry, so you don't want to hurt her, and then what?
[38:37] Her getting more emotional, then she starts blaming me. She's like, it's because of you, this is happening.
[38:43] Okay, so can we try a little role play here, and you play your mom?
[38:47] Yeah. Okay.
[38:48] So say, Mom, I really do need to talk to you about some stuff that happened when we were younger, when I was young. I'm like, you guys went to America and left me behind for years and only contacted me like once or twice a year. I felt completely abandoned. I felt worthless, unloved, ignored. I was abandoned. And it really did me a lot of damage. And I'm actually quite angry and hurt about it. More angry than hurt at this point. So I want to talk about this.
[39:27] There's nothing to talk about. We sacrifice everything to bring you kids here, so be happy that you're here.
[39:34] First of all, how dare you? How dare you tell me something that's really important to me is unimportant? How dare you say there's nothing to talk about when I want to talk about something? So let's try this again. don't be cold, right? Because if you sacrifice everything for your children, I'm sure you can sacrifice 10 minutes of difficult conversation because you're a big sacrificer, right? You just sacrifice everything for your children. So I want to talk about this. And don't tell me there's nothing to talk about when I want to talk about something that is important, right? You understand that for me, it was very important that I was left behind and you barely contacted me for years. Do you understand that that's not good?
[40:34] What is it that you want to know? You know we love you. There's no question about it. So just stop complaining.
[40:40] Okay. If you, so you're telling me what I know. You're telling me to stop complaining. You're telling me there's nothing to talk about. But I want to talk about it. Try to get this through your head. I want to talk about it. It is important. Now, if you say, oh, but we love you, you know that. If you loved me, why didn't you call me? why didn't you comfort me why didn't you bring me with you, and if you love me why won't you listen to me now right now why are you dismissing everything I say this is important to me because it's important to me as my mother it should be important to you, so why do you say you love me while dismissing and half insulting everything that I want to talk about.
[41:34] You're thinking in too much into this you should just be happy look where you're at right now none of this will be possible if we didn't do the sacrifices we made and don't question our decisions we made the best decisions at the time that was possible.
[41:51] So once more you don't want to listen to what i want to talk about, do you understand that for a seven-year-old boy to be left behind while the family leaves and he barely gets any contact with them over the next few years, that that is upsetting and traumatic? And there was no reason why you couldn't contact me. It's literally free. There's video calls Heck, there's just letters You can write letters So why didn't you contact me?
[42:40] You were left with your grandparents and you were in good hands so we never had to worry.
[42:46] That doesn't answer why you didn't contact me Do you think that a child likes to hear from his mother or his father more than once or twice a year? I didn't know what the plan was. I didn't know what the circumstances were. I didn't know when it would change. I didn't know anything. I was left completely in the dark, left behind, abandoned, with no contact. Do you think that was good parenting?
[43:15] Well, we send you all these gifts every time.
[43:19] Okay. Do you think that good parenting is leaving your child behind but sending him some toys?
[43:31] We did what we can at that time.
[43:32] No, but stop lying. Stop it. You didn't do what you could. You barely contacted me. That's a lie. This is just sentimentality. I won't stand for it. Stop lying to me. Why didn't you contact me? You could have done it. It's easy. It's free. Why didn't you call and contact? Because it pisses me off. and it's pissing me off, frankly, that you're lying. You didn't do everything you could. You didn't sacrifice anything. You wouldn't even sacrifice 20 minutes a week to call me.
[44:14] So why didn't you call me?
[44:27] We were busy with our life and the time zone difference. we did our best when we could contact you, but it was always possible.
[44:36] So are you saying that you didn't even have 10 minutes a day more than once or twice a year? I mean, come on, Mom. Like, please stop insulting me with this garbage. I mean, this is just nonsense. It's just a lie. I don't know the reason why you didn't contact me, but it's not because of the time zone. If it's the time zone, get up early! or stay up late do something to stay in touch, I mean if the barrier to you talking to your first born son is it's kind of inconvenient with the hours then don't also tell me you did everything you could, there's also the weekends and it doesn't take much, so the idea that you just didn't have any time or there was a time zone problem is pathetic. It just tells me that you'd rather get another half hour of sleep than get up and talk to me.
[45:41] So let's try this again. Why didn't you contact me? And please stop lying. Because this is really important to me. And if you keep lying to me, I won't want to talk to you. I really won't. Because I just don't want to talk to someone who's just lying about everything. Why would I want to have a conversation with someone? I'm begging you for information. Because I'm really hurt, and as you can tell, quite angry. I'm begging you for information and you're just making up a bunch of transparent garbage, why didn't you contact me.
[46:20] This is where she would cry and get emotional like well we did everything we could mom.
[46:24] Mom mom stop it stop it stop lying you didn't do everything you could everything you could would have been bringing me with you or if for some bizarre reason you couldn't making sure you stayed in touch. So stop crying because this is about me. Let's not make it about you, right? This is about me. So, you know, snap out of it. Give me some eye contact. Stop falling into self-pity. Let's continue the conversation. Why didn't you contact me? And if you make it about you and your sadness and your feelings and your hurtiness and all that, after just telling me there's nothing to talk about and that this is not important. If it's not important, then it should be easy to talk about. I mean, the weather in India is not that important to us because we don't live in India, so it's pretty easy to talk about. So stop with the self-pity, stop with the tears, take a deep breath, give me some eye contact, and let's try this again.
[47:34] My guess is Stefan is she was lazy and she didn't really love me Well.
[47:39] She didn't love anyone.
[47:43] I think she loves my sister.
[47:45] Nope No That's not how love works It's like saying, well she can't speak Japanese with me but she can speak Japanese with my sister. I mean, people can either love or they can't. I mean, they may have an attachment, they may have a neurotic bond, they may have a trauma attachment, I don't know, but it's not love. Because love is our involuntary response to virtue if we're virtuous, and your mother is not virtuous. Your mother is manipulative, cold-hearted, at least in the role play, insulting, self-pitying. That's not virtuous. Dishonest, she lies. continually. And so your mother is dishonest and dishonest people can't love because you have to be virtuous in order to love. And she's cold and manipulative and false. So you can't love. She can't love. I'm a hundred percent confident on that. There's lots of stuff I doubt, but I don't believe that manipulative dishonest people can genuinely love sorry go ahead.
[49:03] She shows more caring and affection towards my sister than myself so perhaps not love but just overall more gratitude and more, towards my sister than myself so but.
[49:18] That's part of the cruelty right this is what grandparents do cold hearted grandparents are warm hearted towards the grandkids it's just part of the cruelty, see I can be nice I can be loving and therefore it's your fault when I'm not.
[49:40] My sister is aware of this favoritism because she texted me one time since my son was born first before she had any kids. I had the first child in the family. She texted me one time. I remember this specifically. She's like, mom's back is hurting. When I have a kid, you better get used to her watching over my kids.
[50:07] Oh so she didn't text you any sympathy she was just kind of yeah okay so she's she's pretty nasty too in that way right yeah she loves me more than you yeah so is that healthy.
[50:28] Oh absolutely not.
[50:29] Okay so she's not healthy your mother's not healthy and you think there's a i I mean, you're lucky in the sense that your mother did not turn her, quote, affections on you. It'll also be great when your parents get old and need to be taken care of. You'll be like, no, no. You put all your energy into my sister. She can take care of you.
[50:51] Yep. That's pretty much where I'm headed to in the future. Right.
[50:55] Right. I mean, I think that's reasonable. I think that's reasonable.
[50:58] Yeah.
[50:59] And you said you don't have any connection with your dad either, right? No.
[51:05] I want to get in touch with the family. I usually call my mom, talk to her instead of my dad.
[51:11] Okay. So what's the plus of having them in your life? And again, I'm totally open to the case. I'm just not sure I get it yet.
[51:24] In my life, 24-7, it's like maybe...
[51:26] No, no, no, don't start off with a false dichotomy, man. Come on. Don't start off with a false dichotomy. I said, in your life, did I say anything about 24-7?
[51:36] No, you're right.
[51:37] Okay, so come on. I know I just talked to your mom, but let's not have her continue in the conversation. Why? What's the case? I mean, what's the plus? Do they help you in your marriage? Do they help you connect with the past? Do they help you in terms of wisdom and growth and knowledge and so on? Do they transfer their virtues to you? Are they massively positive and helpful in your life and deeply devoted to your kids and helping you become a better parent? And are they helping you with any issues in your marriage? Like, what's their, I mean, just frankly, utility. We have to have some utility with the people in our lives. There has to be some positives. Otherwise, it's just exploitation, right? I mean, if I had a friend and every time we went out, I had to pay, every time, I had to pay 100%, well, that wouldn't be right or fair, right?
[52:34] There's a beneficial aspect to it. What I usually go over to their house for is my grandparents live with them as well, since they all live in one household. So I just mostly visit my grandparents.
[52:47] Okay. and your grandparents who raised your mother, and your grandparents who, to your knowledge, never told her that she actually had to contact her son she'd left behind and abandoned.
[53:02] Yeah.
[53:05] So there's something wrong there too, right?
[53:12] Yeah, but they were the ones who took care of me most of, or during my life, I feel like. I owe them a little bit of more gratitude than anything.
[53:23] Are you talking mostly about the ages from seven to 10 or something else?
[53:28] Or even after that, when I started going to school here, it was my grandpa taking me to school, dropping me off.
[53:35] Sorry, you mean in the States?
[53:37] Yeah.
[53:38] Hang on. How the hell did your grandparents get to the States?
[53:42] Uh later on the and they went with me to the states at age of 10 oh.
[53:49] So your your family somehow couldn't bring you but they could bring you and your grandparents.
[54:00] Later on yeah.
[54:01] Okay okay all right so your grandparents tell me about what happened in the States, I mean, you were then living with your mother and your father, right? So tell me more about what happened with your grandparents.
[54:16] They'll be the ones taking me to activities like sporting events or to school and back every time.
[54:22] But why? You've got to stay at home more.
[54:26] She did not wake up early in the morning. Usually she wakes up around like 10 or 11 o'clock in the morning or later.
[54:34] Did she stay up late? Why does she get up so late?
[54:37] Yeah, she always stays up late, watching TV or some kind of nonsense.
[54:43] Ah-ha! Caught! Caught and exposed. Ah-ha! Got her. Do you know what I got her on?
[55:00] Laziness?
[55:01] When does she go to bed?
[55:03] Late.
[55:04] What time? Roughly. Oh, yeah.
[55:08] Yeah. Two o'clock at night. Okay.
[55:10] Two in the morning.
[55:12] Yeah. Right.
[55:15] Right. So the time zone doesn't really matter much when it comes to calling, right? Because she can stay up all hours of the night. Right? Because she's on a different schedule.
[55:33] Yeah.
[55:34] So she can stay up late. So the time zone doesn't matter that much. And it doesn't matter which way the time zone is. Let's say it's six hours. She's at two. It's eight o'clock in the morning. She can call you. If she's standing up at two and it's six hours back, that's eight o'clock at night. She can call you.
[55:56] Absolutely.
[55:56] So the time zone excuse is total bullshit. Because it's not like she's got some strict schedule and she's working 14 hours a day. Oh, I didn't have time. There was a time zone. You're a stay-at-home mom with one kid. So she just lies. And she lies about that which is most sensitive to you and which hurt you the most. You had all the time in the goddamn world to call you. And she was on an unusual schedule. so the time zone was a lie.
[56:33] Yeah i i know that but it was just i i can't call her out on it why not or oh.
[56:42] Because of the physics of you get drowned in women's tears and you wish to survive right.
[56:46] Yeah then she'll pretty much not contact me because she's hurt her emotions there a lot he's going through medical she'll just say She's going through some medical stuff right now and just causing her a lot of headache and issues and stress.
[57:04] Oh, so when she's upset, then you have to bend to her will, right? And when you're upset, spoiler, you have to bend to her will as well. Is that right?
[57:24] Yes.
[57:25] You can't talk to me because I'm upset. But when you're upset, you also can't talk to me because I'm upset. Is that right?
[57:36] Yeah.
[57:37] All right. All right. That's a pretty good deal for her.
[57:46] Yeah, she's always been pretty much gets things her way. I used to think it was my dad that made the decisions but as he gets older I feel like my mom is taking more control and it's her way now, she's making all the financial decisions in the household she's responsible for everything so my dad's always working and just bringing in money and she's just out there spending, shopping having her time of her life.
[58:15] Okay and is it because she is pretty. Was she pretty when she was younger?
[58:27] Yeah.
[58:30] Okay. And how old were you when you, you said you were in college, right? Early 20s?
[58:37] Mid-20s.
[58:38] So you were in your mid-20s, and you're now how old?
[58:45] Mid-30s.
[58:46] Mid-30s. So did you meet her sort of around the time that you were listening to me? yeah now i'm sure you've heard me warn of the dangers of pretty.
[59:03] Yes i did okay.
[59:05] Did you think and i'm just i don't mean to be annoying right i'm just curious did you think that it didn't apply to your incredibly shapely very pretty girlfriend friend yeah.
[59:16] Because i was i was looking at other red flags or features i was like okay it's just there's nothing really that stands out that's the red flag to me.
[59:25] Okay let's talk a little bit about her family then because you met them right i mean you asked for her hand in marriage and so on right and we don't have to get into much detail because she's of course not on the call but just roughly how is her family.
[59:42] They seem like they're happy on paper but what i've seen is her mom runs the household and she tells the dad what to do constantly.
[59:52] And when were you first aware of that.
[59:55] Um after we got married i like i never seen him raise the his voice on at her but she's raised his her voice a couple times at him.
[1:00:08] And how was her childhood overall?
[1:00:13] I think it was a happy childhood. She got everything she needed.
[1:00:20] Well, except empathy.
[1:00:28] Okay.
[1:00:29] Well, isn't that what's missing?
[1:00:30] How does she like empathy or that's she's missing empathy now in terms of with me, but, Oh, so she has empathy.
[1:00:39] Just not with the man she chose to get married and have kids with. Nope.
[1:00:45] She did have empathy with me originally, but I think after we had kids, that's when everything like stopped for my, for myself.
[1:00:54] Okay. I'm, I'm certainly happy to, to hear this. Uh, So how was it that she had empathy? And I'm not disagreeing with you. I just want to make sure I understand. How was it that she had empathy for you early on?
[1:01:07] Because I was the only one in her life.
[1:01:10] I don't know what that means.
[1:01:12] So I was pretty much the main factor in her life, other than her family.
[1:01:20] I still don't know what that means. How did she show empathy for you when you were dating?
[1:01:29] Um it was just when we're going out she would care about how much where we're spending what we're doing and just overall love and affection.
[1:01:43] Still i'm still.
[1:01:45] Looking for.
[1:01:45] Uh maybe we should define empathy right.
[1:01:48] Yeah if you can define Yeah.
[1:01:50] Yeah, sure. So empathy would be with someone that you love, that you can't be happy if they're not happy, right? That you're bound together, right? It's like with sexual activity, you can't be happy if your partner's not happy. You can't enjoy yourself if your partner's not thoroughly enjoying herself, right? So empathy is knowing what the other person likes and taking pleasure in their happiness.
[1:02:31] So, over the course of dating, that she would know what you like, and she would then adjust her behavior to make you happy without a sense of self-sacrifice, without a sense of rolling their eyes or, you know, I sacrificed like your mother, I sacrificed everything for you. It's like, no, no. Well, first of all, she didn't. And secondly, if it's empathy and love, it's not a sacrifice. Like, would I say to my daughter, well, I didn't write books for 10 years because you were born. Look at all the sacrifices. Like, it's not a sacrifice. It's a choice on my part. I wanted to do that. I'm happy that I did that. I've got 30 years to write more books, but those 10 years with my daughter when she was little is without, like, I can't get that back. I can write more books in the future. I can't go back to when my daughter was five, right? So, would I say to my wife, well, look at all the women I've sacrificed dating just to be with you. It's like, it's not a sacrifice. I love spending time with my wife. I don't want to date anyone else. It's not a sacrifice. So, thinking about what makes your partner happy and working, to achieve it, though you wouldn't do it otherwise, right?
[1:03:50] I mean, it's not like I go hang around in play centers that'd be kind of weird right but when my daughter's little we spent lots of time particularly canadian winter and all of that we spent lots of time in play centers, and it was fun and and but there's not a sacrifice and she loved the play centers.
[1:04:09] Like like she likes going on we call them river walks right and i'm sorry to give you such detail but it's important to to get there that's fine right so so my daughter loves going on river overwalks and so what we do is we you know take off her shoes and we walk up rivers and she loves catching a little fish and she loves catching these sea cockroaches called crayfish and she wants me to catch crayfish now i don't like catching crayfish because i grew up in apartments riddled with cockroaches and i hate the idea of touching those things plus i don't want to damage them and you have to be fairly assertive she's really good at it so i'm you know i'm up to my thighs in icy water, trying to grab cockroaches from the bottom of a river. I don't want to do that. I'd never in a million years do that on my own. But it brings her happiness, so I do it because that brings me happiness. So empathy is knowing that she likes doing it. I, of course, would not do this in a million years if she didn't want to do it. I mean, if she hated it and like, Like, dad, they're just river cockroaches. They're tiny lobsters. It's gross. I wouldn't sit there and say, no, no, no, let's go do that, right? But I do it because it makes her happy, and her happiness is my happiness. It's not a sacrifice. At all.
[1:05:33] Yeah.
[1:05:36] So, the empathy part is when you love someone, you know what makes them happy, and you work hard to provide that happiness for them. So, with regards to your wife, she knows how important sex is to you. Now, let's say it's less important to her. and she would then never delay going to get her blood and hormone levels checked just in case there was something that was awry and maybe she needs to take some supplements i don't know what i'm no doctor right but so she would never postpone that right yeah.
[1:06:19] She would and.
[1:06:20] She would really focus on making sure that she and if there was any kind of uh resistance to her with regards to sexuality, then she would go to get counseling, right, to try to figure that out.
[1:06:38] Absolutely.
[1:06:39] And she would also recognize that she had a lot of sex with you when you were dating, right? Yes. And she would say, look, I don't want to be dishonest, right? So I'm clearly capable of having a lot of sex. And see, for a man, the idea that sex is a chore is incomprehensible. So she would say, well, I wouldn't want to have misrepresented myself. I wouldn't want to have trapped a man with the implicit promise of a lifetime of sex a couple of times a week, and then maybe only a couple of times a year.
[1:07:20] Absolutely.
[1:07:20] So with all of that, she would focus on how to make you happy and your happiness would be her happiness.
[1:07:36] Yeah, she never really does that.
[1:07:38] She doesn't sit there and say, listen, I don't know what's going on with me. My sex drive is bad. Now, let me just ask you the sort of practical question. Sorry, go ahead.
[1:07:47] She does come to the realization of that maybe once or twice since I've known her. It's like, okay, I don't know what's going on with me. I'm all hormonal. Then she says it might be postpartum depression or things like that. and she's just pretty much setting blame to something else.
[1:08:09] Well, okay, so let's say it's postpartum depression. Well, then she should go and get her blood work done. She should talk to a therapist. Like, you don't just have a problem and then just sit on it, particularly if your problem negatively affects your partner. Like, let's say that for some reason I start snoring like a jet engine, right?
[1:08:30] Yeah. And it keeps my wife up.
[1:08:33] Do I just keep doing it and don't go and get it checked out and don't go and try and find some solution and don't like just demand that she stay in the same room and not get any sleep? The hell? It wouldn't make any sense at all.
[1:08:47] because I would feel terrible if I was keeping my wife awake with my snoring I would be unhappy and I would have to solve that problem because I care about my wife and I don't want her to be tired, yeah do you see what I mean? yeah so who is it in your life who deeply thinks about what makes you happy and takes pleasure in providing that? Nobody. Now, why do you think, I'm sorry, I don't want to unfairly characterize your wife. I mean, does she work hard with the kids? Like, what does she work, what's her average day like? What does she work hard at?
[1:09:38] She takes the kids to school, watches over the one-year-old, and most of the time doing chores or cleaning around the house.
[1:09:47] Okay, so she's working fairly hard, right?
[1:09:51] Yeah.
[1:09:51] Is that right? Sorry, there was a pause there. I don't want to put words into your mouth.
[1:09:54] I would say it's fairly hard, but sometimes I feel like she can do a lot more throughout her day.
[1:10:00] Do you have a sense of what her day looks like? Like an average day?
[1:10:07] Yeah. I would say she spends a lot of time on the phone as well, just scrolling through Instagram, the mindless scrolling.
[1:10:15] Oh, gosh.
[1:10:18] Yeah.
[1:10:19] What mark of... I've got obviously not... I'm not trying to give her any negative characteristics. But what markers of intelligence does she have? Does she read complex books? Does she enjoy challenging debates? What does she do? Is she learning side skills, or does she have an interest in the Byzantine Empire? I don't know, whatever it would be. But what indications would you have of intelligence?
[1:10:48] Uh, she got a degree from university in accounting, but she only worked until we had our child. But as of now, there isn't really much in terms of advancing her degree of intelligence. Like I got her a Udemy course where she can go on there and take anything she wants to get back in the workforce. I told her like, Hey, these are the skillsets. These are good. If you want to do She's not going to do that.
[1:11:11] Yeah, she's not going to do that.
[1:11:12] Yeah.
[1:11:14] So one of the things that's important in a marriage is that you come to the table with good conversation. Right? So, I mean, I will notice things on social media, maybe, and it's interesting to talk to my family about, right? Because the conversation is very important to family life, because she doesn't just have a monopoly on sex with you, but she has a monopoly on most of your free time. And so it is important in a marriage to learn things, to come up with, well, to understand how the world works, to learn things that are interesting, and to talk about things as a whole, right? Right. So what does she do to stay interesting as a conversationalist in the marriage? Does she come up with thoughts or ideas or read things or learn things? Or what does she do to keep the communication interesting?
[1:12:15] Um, it's the communication is mostly like what the kids and family are up to. Then other than that, just like Instagram stories, you might've seen like the new Netflix documentary of the family that was murdered. And she's like, Oh, did you hear about this? I'm like, Oh, no, I think I might've heard about it, but I really don't care about that stuff. It just another nonsense, nonsense documentary on Netflix.
[1:12:41] Right. Okay. So how interesting do you find her as a person at the moment or for the last while?
[1:12:54] Significantly less.
[1:12:55] I mean, if she was a man or sexually unavailable because she was older or another man's wife or whatever, right? Even if you weren't married, would you want to hang out with her for the sake of conversation?
[1:13:10] No. Okay. Not at all.
[1:13:13] And was she a good conversationalist in the past? And when was she the best conversationalist, and what was she talking about?
[1:13:25] When we were probably in our dating scene, she was actually interested in what I was doing and the topics I was talking about.
[1:13:34] Well, but that's you being a good conversationalist. What about her?
[1:13:40] She never really had her own hobbies or topics I would be the one leading the conversation.
[1:13:50] Does she have wisdom like you and I, like all men have challenges at work or whatever, right? Does she have wisdom and things of value to provide to you with work difficulties or other challenges in your life?
[1:14:11] She encourages me, like pushes me to try harder in certain topics. I've been trying to move up to a supervisor or a manager position and it's like, oh, go for it. You will make a great supervisor. But I'm like, you keep nagging me, you keep telling me what to do. It's like, how am I supposed to be a supervisor or a manager when you belittle me or you keep telling me constantly do this, do that.
[1:14:35] So tell me a little bit more about the belittling or the nagging or this kind of conflict.
[1:14:43] So if i'm around the house doing something and doing some chores she's like do this and i was literally in the process of doing that i'm like okay it really bothered it bothered me personally like okay you're telling me constantly what to do when i'm in the in that process or i'm in a different process and i'll get to that right after but it just constantly being told what to do It just, I don't know if it's just me. I just don't like authority figure or being told what to do in general.
[1:15:13] So, uh, can you, I just not sure I understand the specific example. So what would she say?
[1:15:21] Um, so let's say the trash is full and I'm about to put my shoes on to take out the trash. She's like, can you take out the trash already? And I was like, okay, I was going to put my shoes on to come there. Take it out. It's just give me a minute.
[1:15:38] Okay. What else?
[1:15:43] And, uh, she doesn't really respect my work in terms of, uh, what I'm doing. And, uh, so not necessarily my work as in my income, it's like the things I do around the house. So if I like fix the sink, I'm a, I'm very good at fixing things myself. So the sink, I replaced it.
[1:16:06] Uh, Ah, the mystery man gene that I possess almost none of, even having worked in a hardware store. But all right, go ahead. I'm a talker. Anyway, go on.
[1:16:14] Yeah.
[1:16:15] So you're a handy guy.
[1:16:15] Right? Yeah, I'm a handy guy. So if I replace the doorknob and it's slightly off, let's say instead of like it's supposed to be zero degrees flat, the door, the doorknob is slightly at an angle, like one or two degrees. Like, look, it's not even done right. Why do you even bother doing it? Like, why didn't you just call a repairman? He would have done it for us.
[1:16:35] Frack, that's horrible. yeah so what's going on there wait sorry do you have to do like housework.
[1:16:45] I i do do housework yes i do i help them with the laundry i help.
[1:16:49] Sorry why why are you doing housework, i mean you're paying 100 of the bills you're working 10 hours a day with commute or something Something like that, right?
[1:17:01] Yeah.
[1:17:02] Why are you doing housework?
[1:17:05] So let's say she takes out the kids to a birthday party they're attending, so I'm the only one in the house. She's like, okay, swap out the laundry, clean the glasses, like the windows.
[1:17:16] Clean the windows?
[1:17:18] Yeah. She's very OCD in terms of keeping the house clean.
[1:17:23] So well no listen so I'm not saying this is true of your wife but I've had some experience with this and maybe it's the case maybe it's not it's just a form of bullying.
[1:17:39] Yeah, I can see it.
[1:17:41] I mean, so she's going to a party and you're cleaning windows.
[1:17:47] Yeah, it's a kid's party, so she's not really there for the partying aspect. But yeah, I understand.
[1:17:52] More fun than cleaning windows? Would you rather be at the kid's party chasing the kids around being a dinosaur?
[1:18:01] Oh, yeah.
[1:18:02] Right. Maybe I'm missing the whole Eastern European experience, but I thought that men worked and women ran the house.
[1:18:13] They did, but honestly, I think it's from her family aspect. I see how her mom tells her husband what to do constantly. If he's an heir, I think that's great.
[1:18:23] Well, then you knew that before you got married, right?
[1:18:26] Yeah. I didn't know before I got married. I didn't spend much time with her before we got married. Once we got married, then we started going over to their house a lot more often and started seeing that.
[1:18:39] Right. Okay. So if you were to say something like, I don't know what you should or shouldn't say, so this is just a complete mind experiment. But if you were to say something like, okay, just let me sort of understand how your wife's mind operates, so if we can just jump into another role play.
[1:18:57] Yeah.
[1:18:58] By the way, is this stuff helpful and useful? Because I'm trying to sort of map the marriage, and I will give you some solutions, I promise. But is this stuff mostly helpful in illuminating the issues?
[1:19:08] Yeah, I see a lot of stuff that's coming out I was not aware of.
[1:19:13] Okay, good, good. Always aiming to provide maximum value. All right. So you're your wife, I'm you, and I say, listen, you know, I've really been thinking about this stuff, and I don't really want to do the housework stuff anymore. You know, I'm not saying in an emergency I can't help, you know, we're having a dinner party, absolutely, but in general, like, I'm working 10 hours a day, five days a week, sometimes a little bit at night and on the weekends, so I'm working really hard.
[1:19:44] And i understand like you don't help me with my job which totally makes sense to me you don't proofread my emails you don't you know uh run my scheduling right so you don't help me with my job and so i think i think i'm gonna back off for the most part on the housework and and this will actually help us as a whole because i then get to focus more on work because i'm not really enjoying, uh doing the housework um and uh i'm not feeling super appreciated though that's not super important so yeah i'm just gonna i'm just letting you know um i hope it's not too too upsetting but um i think i'm going to focus a bit more on work and getting ahead at work because i think more financial security and more more income will be helpful like you know when i help around the house, in your view, I continually seem to be doing things wrong, right? Like when I fixed the door, you said, oh, you did a bad job. You should have just hired someone. And I really took that to heart. And I think you're actually kind of right.
[1:20:52] So my goal is I'm going to make more money and then pay people to do things around the house, like pay handymen to come in, and you'll be happier with that. I'll be happier with that, and it's a more productive use of my time. So I'm just keeping you up to speed on my decision.
[1:21:10] So, Stefan, one thing I want to add is I work on a set schedule, so I work from like 7 to like 4 o'clock. so just uh when i get home my wife knows i'm not working i'm done with work so it's not like i can work after that so.
[1:21:28] Okay so that's fine so seven seven to four right yeah so that's nine hours right yeah and do you have to commute uh yeah okay how long is your commute 20.
[1:21:40] Minutes back like 20 minutes there so.
[1:21:42] 40 minutes total so seven to noon is five hours noon to four is four hours, so do i do i have that right yeah so with the with the commute you're working almost 10 hours a day, okay so i was right about the 10 hours a day thing right, okay so uh that's fine so then we'll we'll just and sorry you don't have to tell me what you do for a living but is there is there any possibility that your wife could help you in any way shape or form with your job not.
[1:22:18] In my not with my job.
[1:22:20] Okay she.
[1:22:20] Couldn't help me with uh like household activities like making sure the bills are paid things like that but she she showed no and uh incentive into doing that.
[1:22:31] Okay got it okay so let's get back to the the role play it's the same thing that i said but i won't say you know working outside of regular workouts okay and what would you say you.
[1:22:45] Just want more time to play video games or watch tv is that it.
[1:22:49] I don't know maybe it doesn't really matter right.
[1:22:55] Well it matters because if you want to play video games you're just wasting your time instead of doing chores and helping out throughout the household.
[1:23:01] I'm sorry do you not think that i'm helping out throughout the household by paying all the bills. I'm sorry, maybe I'm missing something. I mean, I'm spending 50 hours a week and paying the bills by hand myself and doing the taxes. So I'm not sure what you mean by not helping. The only reason we have the household is because I work all the time. So maybe I'm missing something. I'm happy to be instructed, but I'm not sure what you mean by not helping out the household.
[1:23:34] Well, you get all this free time now once you're done after work, so you can help with the kids at least.
[1:23:39] No, no, no. Of course I'm going to spend time with the kids. Yeah, I enjoy spending time with the kids. Absolutely. Yeah, I get that. So let's not talk about that. And listen, I mean, let's be frank, right? I mean, I know we've avoided this topic for a while, but let's put our cards on the table. You don't have a job outside the home. Now, the work that you do inside the home is very important, and it's very helpful. Obviously, you're raising our kids. It's a beautiful thing, and I hugely appreciate it. But you have more free time than I do in many ways, right? I mean, do I sit there and say, well, you're not spending time doing housework. You're just scrolling Instagram on your phone. Is that productive? At least with video games, I'm learning strategy and reflexes. Hand-eye coordination. You're just scrolling on the phone, scrolling on the phone, this waterfall of drivel. Do I complain about that? that no because like you're relaxing right so i don't nag you for what you find relaxing so i'd appreciate a return of the courtesy so let's try this again i'm just telling you i'm going to focus on my career i'm going to focus on getting this promotion and if i choose the way in which i choose to relax when i'm not working is not your concern well.
[1:24:56] You know i haven't been sleeping well because of the little one keeping me up all night. So you can at least show a little bit of incentive and helping around the household because I can't manage to do everything all at once.
[1:25:10] I'm not sure what you mean by everything all at once.
[1:25:15] Well, I have to do the laundry, I have to mop the floors, clean the house.
[1:25:19] Yes, you have a job. Do I complain every day about having to go to work and earn a paycheck? check you have a job i have a job why do i have to help you with your job you don't help me with my job well.
[1:25:33] I haven't been getting much sleep because of the little child so you have to be understanding and help around the household.
[1:25:39] Sorry sorry why do i why do i mean yes you're tired and there are times when i am tired and i go to work do i complain about that, I don't understand. There are times that I'm also woken up by the little one, and I'm a parent, and so on. So I don't understand. I also get tired, and I have to go to work, and I don't say to you, well, you have to help me with my job because I'm tired.
[1:26:09] I got like zero hours of sleep last night, and you were sleeping all throughout the night. So you had a lot more rest than I did, so you should be fine and good to go.
[1:26:18] Yeah, that certainly is true. That certainly is true. There are times when you are working harder than I am, and then there are times when I'm working harder than you are. And when I'm working harder than you are, I don't demand that you help me do my job. I just work harder and don't complain. So, yeah, there are certainly times when that happens, and I do appreciate it. But I don't want to help out with the household and, at the same time, work 50 hours a week as well, and pay all the bills, and do all the taxes. it's just too much. I don't want to do it. And I also don't, like, it's not pleasant for me, like, just so you know. If it was pleasant for me, like, if we were, I don't know, whipping each other with tea towels while doing the dishes and laughing, then that would be fun. But it's not fun for me. I don't enjoy it. Because, I mean, from my experience, I'm not saying this is true, but my experience is that, you know, you're kind of criticizing and telling Tell me I'm doing things the wrong way and kind of negative about things. And so it's that the work itself is not the problem fundamentally. It's just unpleasant to do it.
[1:27:26] And a lot of that unpleasantness has to do with how you treat me. I don't really get much appreciation. I just seem to do everything wrong. So I'm just not going to impose doing things wrong. I mean, look, we've been married for a long time. And if I continue to get things wrong, I'm firing myself. I'm firing myself for not enjoying the work and doing it badly.
[1:27:52] I'm not even asking for that much. It's just vacuum the house while I'm gone. It's not asking for that much. You can do a little.
[1:28:00] Sorry, you seem to keep missing the fact that I work 50 hours a week for this family. What do you mean do a little? What percentage of the household income are you contributing? I'm not sure what's missing here. Do you not understand that I go to work, money comes in, And I pay all the bills. So what do you mean when you say do a little? I'm not following this.
[1:28:33] Yeah, you pay for everything. But after you're done with your work, you're free. You have time on your hands. You can do whatever you want.
[1:28:40] Thank you. I can do whatever I want. I appreciate that. Thank you.
[1:28:44] And it will be the best thing for you to help around the household.
[1:28:48] No, no, no. It's not the best thing for honey. I'm telling you this. It's not the best thing for me. I get criticized a lot. I don't enjoy it. And I would rather work on learning some more skills for my career or even just, you know, if I relax and play some video games, that helps my brain to cool down. Work can be difficult, right? I mean, you worked for a little while. You know that you can have difficult bosses, difficult clients, difficult co-workers, right? I don't just want to... You don't have the day shift of having to go to work can pay all the bills, which is a lot of responsibility. You have stay home, and I'm not denigrating that. I think that's wonderful. But you don't help me with my work, and I'm not going to help you with your work because I don't enjoy it, and I would rather focus on relaxing, maybe learning some things, and working more on my career. That's going to benefit us more in the long run anyway, because we'll get more income.
[1:29:42] You're just making excuses so you have time to play your stupid video games.
[1:29:46] See, that's kind of, hang on, hang on, hang on. Don't talk to me that way. Absolutely not. Do not insult something that I find relaxing and enjoyable. That's rude. Don't talk to me. Who do you think you're talking to? I'm the father of your children. Are you calling something that I enjoy stupid? Oh, okay. So that's fine. Fine. Tell me about all the elevated things that you do. Tell me about all of the great books that you're reading, all the great works of philosophy, all the great works of literature, all the Shakespearean sonnets you're studying. Please tell me all of the highly intelligent things you're doing with your spare time. You owe me an apology. That was rude. I haven't insulted you. I haven't insulted you. You started the insults. that you owe me an apology because that's rude, right?
[1:30:51] Yeah, so at this stage, I think she might realize that and be like, oh, I'm sorry, honey, and come to a realization. But sometimes she just keeps fighting.
[1:31:00] Okay, so let's say that she comes to a realization. So if she keeps fighting, you just say, no, no, you owe me an apology. That was rude. And you just have to broken record that. It's like, no, no, no. I mean, you're going off on another tangent. You still, I mean, it was rude to call my hobby stupid, right? That's rude. Just because you don't enjoy it doesn't mean that it's stupid, right? Right. So let's say that she apologizes. Then you would just say, OK, so. So we're I'm not looking for. I'm sorry. Go ahead.
[1:31:30] So she apologized. I'll be like, you're right, honey. I'm sorry. Like, I've been hormonal. I've been everywhere. I haven't been getting much sleep. The kids have been driving me crazy. I'm with them 24 seven. Yeah, you can rest, relax a little, play a little video games while we're gone. enjoy your time good.
[1:31:50] Okay so so that would be uh and then that would just be the plan right, yeah okay so so it sounds like she's on board with you they're not doing nearly as much housework and then what would happen then.
[1:32:05] She'd be like okay things are getting dirty or we still we need to get this clean that we want to get the floors mopped so just Just do that.
[1:32:13] Okay, and I would say, I'm sorry. I mean, we had this conversation. I'm happy to have it again. But no, I'm not doing the housework stuff. I mean, unless there's some real emergency, like we got 20 people coming over or whatever, then I'm happy to pitch in. But I'm doing the bill paying. I'm doing the work for the household. I'm doing the taxes. I'm doing all of this stuff. So no, I'm not, as I sort of mentioned, like I'm not doing the housework because I don't enjoy it. and it doesn't help me in my job.
[1:32:45] How much more TV are you going to watch or play video games? Are you going to just do this forever for the rest of your life?
[1:32:52] See, that's kind of rude. Right? Do you understand why that's rude?
[1:32:57] Yeah.
[1:32:58] Okay. So, again, you owe me an apology for escalation and being rude. Because we already had this conversation, and you said you can relax and don't worry about the chores.
[1:33:10] But you're getting older. You're going to be 40 years, 40-year-old in a couple of years. so you just might as well play video games your whole life. You have to make something of yourself. You have to help around the house and through the household.
[1:33:27] So you insulted my age. You insulted my ambition. You insulted my hobbies. You insulted my potential. You insulted my career. The hell is the matter with you? I mean, you love me, don't you? Yeah.
[1:33:45] Of course I love you.
[1:33:46] Okay, so why would you talk to me that way? That's horrible what you said.
[1:33:52] Because you're wasting your life playing video games or watching TV.
[1:33:58] So let's say that I'm, quote, wasting my life playing video games and watching TV. Okay? You want to get into it? We can get into this. We can get into this.
[1:34:11] so you feel that i'm not pulling my weight around the house right, yes now would you say that the reason why i should pull my weight around the house is because i'm your husband right, like if i was just some stranger you wouldn't ask me to do this right, Okay, so I owe you housework because I'm your husband.
[1:34:49] But we don't have a marriage. That's the problem. So I apparently have all of these obligations because I'm your husband and the marriage is founded upon sexual relationships. Right? That's the one thing that is, I can go out and hug a woman, I can go out and go bowling with a woman, I can go out and do anything, I just can't have sex with a woman, right? So the marriage is founded on a monopoly of sexual activity, right? yeah okay so i have i apparently have all of these obligations as a husband except we don't have a marriage because we're not having sex so we're roommates and as roommates i don't know you squat hey i'll pay the bills because we got kids but if you want me to have all of these obligations as a husband then we have to have a marriage and a marriage means sex.
[1:35:51] Well we don't have sex because that's all you think about that's all you ask for.
[1:35:59] Oh okay let's let's say that's true let's say that's true so you're asking me to do more chores chores, and I'm not going to. And now if I say, well, honey, the reason I don't do more chores is that's all you think about and that's all you ask about, what would you say?
[1:36:22] That's not all I think about or ask for you.
[1:36:24] So you can insult me by saying I'm somehow like a sexual obsessive or pervert or something like that. You can insult me and my desires for you, for my wife. but I can't possibly turn that on you, right? It's just a one-way street. You can just insult me for wanting to make love to my wife, but you have all of these complex thoughts and think about a bunch of different things. You see that's kind of unbalanced, right?
[1:36:58] So you don't have to fulfill any marital, like you don't have to make it a marriage, right? And listen, I'm not saying have sex when you don't want to. Of course, don't have sex when you don't want to. That's fine. But if you don't want to make love to your husband and there's nothing physically wrong with you, then you are free of marital obligations. That's fine. Freedom for you is freedom for me. if you're free of marital obligations or trying to find a way to figure out how to enjoy things more that's fine if you can just say no to what you don't feel like and never try and figure out why or get your health checked up or whatever might be the case if you can just say no that's fine then our marriage is if you don't feel like it don't do it and don't fix it that's the i mean we can do this if you want right i mean probably is overdue but freedom for you is freedom for me, if you don't have to do anything you don't immediately feel like or figure out how to enjoy it more. I mean, just as a man, obviously, it's kind of incomprehensible to me.
[1:38:09] That my chore is vacuuming and cleaning windows and your chore is an orgasm. I mean come on it's funny right it's funny in a dark kind of way that this is the big chore and difficulty and problem that you have now if our sexual uh spark is is gone because of something that I'm doing and not you can't just shame me for having sexual desire that's fine I mean you can if you want you can do whatever you want but if you shame me for sex having sexual desire then you're destroying the marriage because marriage is founded upon a monopoly of sexual activity. That's what it's for, right? So that I know the kids are mine, not that I have any doubt, of course, and so on, right? So... Yeah, I mean, I don't just shame you, right? You've said to me very clearly that if you don't feel like doing something, you don't have to do it. And listen, I guess I'm not happy with that. Obviously, I would much rather we had a loving, romantic, and sexual relationship. But in the absence of that, we don't really have a marriage. And if we don't really have a marriage, then we're just roommates. And as roommates, I don't have to do squat.
[1:39:32] Now, if there's something that I'm doing, and you can't just insult me, right? I mean, that's not right. But if there's something that I could do differently or better, I'm certainly happy to hear it. You know, if I need to do more sit-ups and get ripped or I don't know, whatever, right? But if it's something that I need to do differently, I'm obviously happy to hear about that. But for years, we don't have a marriage. We haven't had a marriage. We've had roommates raising kids. And that's fine. So we're roommates. Now, as roommates, I shouldn't even be paying the bills. But, you know, we have kids and all of that. But as roommates, I'm not obligated to help you with anything. Sorry, go ahead. You were saying something.
[1:40:13] It's because you've changed. You're not the same person. I just don't find you attractive as before.
[1:40:20] Right. And I get that. So rather than talk to me about it or figure out how to solve that, that, you're just not having sex. And so I don't enjoy doing the chores, so I'm just not going to do them. I mean, it's the same principle, right? I just don't find doing chores very attractive anymore, so I'm just not going to do them.
[1:40:45] So you're just going to be playing video games. That's the only thing you care about.
[1:40:49] Well, what does it say about your attractiveness as a wife that I would rather play video games. Like, do you understand the degree to which you insult me? Like, are you even, I'm not sure if you're aware of that, because I see this a little bit in your parents' marriage, maybe it's not super clear to you, but the degree to which you insult me, I'm wasting my life, my hobbies are stupid, and so on, right? The degree to which you insult me is really quite a lot. And so, if I would rather play video games than interact with you, do you ever wonder why? Do you ever wonder, like, why would he choose video games? Like, rather than just insulting the video games, do you ever wonder why sometimes I escape into video Video games? Because dealing with you is tough, right? There's a lot of insults.
[1:41:46] First of all, don't ever insult my parents or bring them into this. Second, it's because video games are...
[1:41:52] Oh, I'm sorry, sorry. I can't insult your parents, but you can insult me. I think you have lost any right to talk about who can and cannot be insulted. And I didn't say I didn't insult your parents. I just said that there were some patterns. But you don't get to say to me who I should and shouldn't insult when you have insulted me a dozen times over the course of a 15-minute conversation. Don't even try. So let's try that again, though. I'm certainly happy to hear what you have to say, but let's not do any of that nonsense.
[1:42:25] Sense i told you what i thought about video games and you playing them is just childish no man or adults should be playing video games it's a complete waste of time and you wanting to do that just shows how immature you are and you just haven't matured up you're just a little kid that doesn't know what they want okay.
[1:42:46] So i'm just going to tell you if you keep insulting me the marriage will fail. I can't live being insulted. I mean, you can have criticisms of me, sure. I'm sure I'm worthy of criticism and so on, but I'm just telling you that this level of insults ends marriages. I mean, why would anyone want to sit around and be insulted? I mean, I'm not saying this is not a threat, I'm just telling you that this is what... Right, the biggest predictor of divorce us is contempt. And if you have contempt for me, you should tell me that, and then we can make the necessary arrangements. But I'm not going to sit around and be insulted for the next 50 years. Like, I'm just not going to do it. So you can find a way to speak to me with a civil tongue in your head, or we can start making other arrangements. But I'm telling you it's that series. I'm not doing it. And I'm sorry that I've allowed it to happen for so long. That's on me. But you have to find a way of communicating without insulting. Do you feel that you scrolling through Instagram endlessly is a very big and productive use of your time?
[1:44:00] We need to communicate better, you and I, so we need to talk more. I always told you, like, come talk to me, but you just never instigate the conversation.
[1:44:08] No, stop it. You see how you just went right back into insulting? We need to do better, but you never do this, right? This is a terrible habit. You have a bad habit. Can you admit that? You slide towards insults and put downs. Okay, let me ask you this. What do you think you could do better in the marriage? And I promise Ned to never use this against you, I promise. But what could you do better in the marriage? I mean, if there's a hint, if you want a hint, I just told you.
[1:44:52] Yeah, I cannot insult you as much as I do.
[1:44:56] Sorry, not insult you as much? Do you mean that there's some level of insult that's good?
[1:45:05] Well, sometimes people need it.
[1:45:08] No, they don't need insults. I mean, they might need coaching, they might need feedback, they might need encouragement, they might need constructive criticism, but not insults, right? calling me a child and immature and never growing up and wasting my life. That's just insults, right?
[1:45:32] I'll try not to insult you as much as I do.
[1:45:35] No. I need you to stop insulting me. Not, I'll try. But you need to stop. And I know that sometimes it'll just happen automatically. But then when I pointed out, you need to immediately withdraw and apologize.
[1:45:56] But sometimes you're being childish and you have to be aware of that.
[1:46:07] So we're right back to this, right? You're just calling me childish. childish. So the moment I say, please don't insult me, you immediately start insulting me. Whenever you say, gee, I've got a problem with insults, I should insult you less, the first thing you come back to is insulting me. You want to talk childish? Should we do that? That's fine. We can talk childish. Children don't take any responsibility for their behavior but just blame other people. That's what you do. Children use petty insults rather than constructive criticism. That's what you do. And children don't go for years with a possible hormonal imbalance or a possible health issue that's killed the sex drive without going to get it checked out. Children avoid doctors and dentists because they don't understand how to maintain their health. You won't even get checked out when you have a symptom called a low sex drive that could indicate a very important issue. So maybe, just maybe, don't talk around childishness.
[1:47:23] You're right. I've been childish in certain aspects as well.
[1:47:27] And I have not been great. Listen, what could I do better? I could obviously be more assertive. You know, I grew up, and this has nothing to do with you, obviously, you weren't around from my childhood, but I grew up with a mother. I was scared of her indifference, and I couldn't negotiate with her. And I've transferred that to this marriage. And this is really bad on my part. Really bad. I have allowed this, I've enabled this, I've appeased you with your aggression, and that has not helped you at all. And I'm really sorry for that. That's been very bad. Very bad. To appease you, if you're aggressive, just in a sense is training you to be aggressive, so I certainly have significant responsibility in this, and for that I really am sorry. That was not very loving.
[1:48:17] And i love you too i just sometimes i get very angry and heated and i just can't control my emotions or my actions or the words that come out of my mouth.
[1:48:28] Okay so so here's i'm sorry to be annoying i really am but here's what i need you to do and any reasonable person would you need you to do this do you know what you just did.
[1:48:43] Made excuses yeah.
[1:48:45] You made excuses i'm sorry but sometimes my hormones i can't control myself so you understand that you have free will you can choose what words come out of your mouth can we agree with that like you don't have Tourette's or some sort of seizure or you're not possessed by a or a space alien you do actually have control over the words that come out of your mouth right, And you can't blame hormones, and you can't blame me, or you can't blame circumstances, or you can't blame a lack of sleep, because that's just giving yourself permission to act badly if the right circumstances are present, which means I can't trust you. Like, we trust people when they have standards of behavior that they don't have excuses for. Like if I said to you, like just take an extreme example, right? If I said to you, well, I met this woman and she was really sexy and I don't have sex at home and my hormones, I was out of control and I had sex with her, right? What would you say?
[1:49:53] That's cheating and so...
[1:49:54] No, my hormones, we don't have sex really, so I had no control.
[1:50:01] We'd have a divorce.
[1:50:03] Well so you would hold me accountable regardless of my hormones and the circumstances right, yes so I hold you accountable for the harsh and cruel things that you say, and I will not accept excuses and you shouldn't accept excuses anymore because if you won't accept excuses from me but you give endless excuses to yourself yourself, the marriage doesn't work.
[1:50:30] But you know, women get emotional and hormonal, so it's just part of our biology. You men don't have that.
[1:50:36] Yes, men get horny, and we're sexual, and that's part of our biology, but you wouldn't forgive me for dipping my dick in someone else. The hormonal thing is just an excuse. It's just saying, I don't have any standards of behavior, I can do whatever I want, and I can blame these things called hormones. Well, I have hormones too. Do I get to do whatever I want and then blame the hormones? I mean, most men would have had an affair by now.
[1:51:09] And honestly, I contemplated that, but I would never do such a thing. And she's fully aware of that as well.
[1:51:15] Okay. So I'm just pushing back in the role play. I'm just pushing back on the hormone excuse because you have hormones too. But you can control yourself.
[1:51:30] Well, sometimes it's hard for me to control myself. I just get so angry and heated about what you say or what you do.
[1:51:39] Sure, okay. So what are you saying? Self-control is hard? Well, of course it is. So what? Do you not think that I've looked at other women in lust when you and I haven't had sex for three months? And that is because of what you're not doing. But I wouldn't have an excuse for that, would I? If I had an affair.
[1:52:05] You know it's hard for me.
[1:52:06] No no we'll say just just just so you know what we're actually talking about me for a moment so if you could just not bring it immediately back to you that would probably be beneficial to the conversation right do i get the excuse of hormones if i have an affair.
[1:52:25] One thing I want to.
[1:52:27] Ask...
[1:52:28] No, no.
[1:52:28] Do I get the excuse of hormones if I have an affair?
[1:52:34] No.
[1:52:35] Okay, so don't give me any of this crap about your hormones. You don't get license to be harsh and cruel because of hormones. that's bullshit. That's an excuse. That's laziness. If I have to keep it in my pants, even though we don't have sex, although I have hormones, then you got to keep a civil tongue in your head, even when you're upset. I don't care if you have hormones any more than you care that I have hormones. You do the right thing, right?
[1:53:15] Yes.
[1:53:16] Because otherwise, when our kids get to be teenagers, they get what? Hey, hormones! Does that mean they can do whatever they want? If your daughter, repeatedly insults you and is really harsh with you and calls you a loser, wasting her life and she's 13 or 14, do you say, well, that's fine because she has hormones?
[1:53:48] No, we don't want her doing that.
[1:53:50] Okay, so maybe don't model that behavior and give hormones as this magical excuse why you can be pretty terrible.
[1:54:05] Sometimes you just talk too much, and it's just annoying.
[1:54:10] Okay. So at this point, I would just disengage.
[1:54:14] Okay.
[1:54:14] And I would just say, look, you can't stop insulting me. Right? So I'm trying to make a plea for better behavior, and we've been talking for like 20 minutes. And I would just say, you can't stop insulting me. In fact, you don't even seem to notice it. It's that automatic. And that's partly on me, of course, because I haven't really been assertive this way before. So it's partly on me. I've sort of trained you, I guess, with compliance, but it's shitty behavior. And I don't want our kids to see it. I don't want to experience it myself. So until you can keep a civil tongue in your head and speak to me with some respect as the love of your life, wife, the woman you vowed to love and honor and respect, until you can keep a civil tongue in your head, let's not talk. Because after 20 minutes of talking about, don't insult me, you then go right back to, you talk too much and you're annoying, which is straight back to insulting. So I will bid my leave of you. We can try talking again, you know, in a day or two and see if you can be even remotely reasonable and polite. And we'll check in then. But I'm not doing this.
[1:55:35] If that's the way you want to do it.
[1:55:37] No, that's the way you're doing it. I'm just not being insulted. You are choosing this, not me. I'm choosing not to be insulted. So, no, this is entirely upon you. And you can either take accountability for your behavior or not. But I'm certainly not. continuing and i would just leave the room at that point, because i mean what could you say if you say to someone you know please don't do this please don't do this and they say yes i have a bad habit of doing this and then they just immediately do it again like what can you do yeah.
[1:56:07] And usually whenever we have deep long conversations she says i talk too much or and she usually says like oh you're just like your mom your mom she She insults me that way.
[1:56:18] Oh, so I can't bring her parents into it, but she can bring your mom into it. Holy crap.
[1:56:25] I never thought that, but yeah, she always does that.
[1:56:27] Holy crap, man. She's good. How pretty is she? Oh my God. This is like bending reality pretty.
[1:56:37] Yeah, she's, I would say, 10 out of 10.
[1:56:41] Right. Well, take what you want and pay for it. So she's had pretty privilege pretty much her whole life, right?
[1:56:47] Yeah, absolutely.
[1:56:48] So she's an aristocrat of flesh, right? So, you know, I mean, and it's kind of ironic that you were drawn to her physically, and now you don't have any physical access.
[1:57:00] Says yeah and and as i don't know this is just me like a slowly moving away from her just like that physical attractiveness is dying too well listen with all with all due.
[1:57:12] Respect brother you made a bad choice you chose a woman for her flesh not her character to.
[1:57:22] Yeah.
[1:57:23] Right? And she knows that, deep down.
[1:57:28] Mm-hmm.
[1:57:30] She knows, I mean, I know the role play was about one of the more contentious issues, but she's not a likable person that I can see.
[1:57:50] Yeah there's she she gets in even with her friends there there's constant arguments or so it's not always like she's on the good side of her friends either so no.
[1:58:00] No but she's she's nasty i mean she's she kind of bitchy and insulting from again in the role play right.
[1:58:06] Yeah and.
[1:58:08] There were moments of conciliation but then she just goes right back to the bad habits right.
[1:58:13] Yeah so that's how our relationship is so sometimes she'll realize and like be nice but it's maybe once a month and she'll go back to a regular routine of.
[1:58:25] So is your argument that she was great for the first two years of your relationship, before you got married, right? No issues, no problems, she was great, and then she just changed?
[1:58:40] Yeah, after our first child was born, it was just, I feel like she prioritized being a mother, and she forgot being a wife. So she's like, I don't need to do that.
[1:58:52] Well, so the transactional analysis is she got what she wanted, so she didn't have to please you anymore. She gained leverage over you because she now was a mother, and you wouldn't leave your children. So when she didn't have leverage over you, she was nicer, but then when she gained leverage over you, she didn't have to pretend to be nice anymore.
[1:59:13] Absolutely.
[1:59:13] So what were the signs of that ahead of time, and the reason I'm asking you this is because you're a father now which means you've got to educate your children on how not to end up in this kind of mess which means you've got to identify the red flags and teach them to your children, so that this cycle doesn't repeat.
[1:59:33] I didn't see any signs in her the only signs would have been possible from her parents the way her mom treats her dad her husband.
[1:59:41] Which you saw after the engagement right Yeah.
[1:59:44] After an engagement.
[1:59:45] Okay. So you're saying, and listen, I don't believe you. Doesn't mean that you're wrong. I'm just telling you straight up. I don't believe you that there were no red flags. That she knew how to perfectly simulate a kind, caring, thoughtful, virtuous person for an entire year with no cracks in the facade. And then at least kept it going long enough. How long after you got married? Did you have your first child?
[2:00:17] Uh probably half a year okay okay so.
[2:00:21] Wait was it a shotgun wedding.
[2:00:24] No no it wasn't oh after the child was born yeah it was about okay after we were married our son was born almost a year exactly a year after so yeah okay.
[2:00:35] So for three years she was perfectly wonderful and then the beast came out when your son was born well.
[2:00:43] It was kind of chaotic too when When she was pregnant, she was all over the place. But I blamed it on the pregnancy. And even after the pregnancy, the postpartum depression, it was just she was all over the place, emotionally unstable, hormonal. She also says she has misophonia, which is like she gets very irritated with sound. So let's say I'm eating some chips or something in my mouth, she'll get angry and have the look in her eyes like she wants to strangle me and kill me.
[2:01:14] Oh, gosh.
[2:01:15] But I honestly don't think I heard it's the real thing but I kind of don't believe like you.
[2:01:20] Can't control your own well I don't care what the stimulus is, right the excuses are promises of repetition excuses are promises of repetition yes I'm sorry but well you can just ignore everything before the but, so I don't care if she has this whatever if you're chewing it drives her crazy I don't care it doesn't matter She's still responsible for managing her mood, isn't she?
[2:01:48] Yeah.
[2:01:49] Because she calls you childish and she indulges in her moods like a toddler. That's just projection, right?
[2:01:55] Yeah.
[2:01:58] So, it just sounds like another, it's just maybe just another neurotic way to dominate you or something. But let's go back. Red flags. Come on. She's not that good an actress. she kind of kept it going for well over two years 100 and even after you saw her family, and if you said gee um your mom seems kind of bossy would she say oh yeah no it's a huge problem i definitely am not going to do that i mean it's not good for the marriage like did she have any Any criticisms of her parents?
[2:02:42] No, I never. I've brought it up one time, and she's like, no, my dad runs the household. My mom doesn't tell. I'm like, are you delusional? Like, your mom's yelling at your dad. How is she not the one running the household?
[2:02:55] Right. Okay. So she doesn't see the truth about her family, right?
[2:03:04] Absolutely. Absolutely.
[2:03:09] It's got to be something in the first year, man. It's got to be. She can't have pulled it off for an entire year, being reasonable, really good at... That's like pretending to speak Japanese for a year. You can't. Because if she doesn't speak the language called negotiation and empathy, she can't fake it any more than I can fake knowing how to be a surgeon. If I don't know anything about being a surgeon, you can't fake it.
[2:03:37] Yeah, it wasn't negotiation. She was like, if I like something, she was up for doing it. She was up like for getting going, hiking, doing activities with me, like in the forest. Now she hates that. I, she'd it's like dragging a dead body. There's no way I can take her go hiking with me or do any activities outside. She just doesn't want to.
[2:04:00] So, so she had, Oh, come on, man. Seriously. She had no personality flaws for the first year. Nothing. Nothing.
[2:04:10] I i honestly can't say i see i see anything then you read flags or flaws, the first couple of years together.
[2:04:20] Okay so did she ask you about your childhood.
[2:04:28] Uh yeah we connected with our childhood.
[2:04:31] Okay so and so she asked you over that first year she asked you about your childhood right yeah and you said oh yeah no i was abandoned by my mother my family's really cold i don't really get along well with them i don't speak to my dad about much of anything like did you tell her about all of the problems and dysfunctions within your family.
[2:04:51] No i never brought that up to her it was just mostly like oh my family immigrated here and but you.
[2:04:57] Already listen to what i do right, yeah so the red flag is you, okay the red flag is you that's why you can't see it so you lied, You lied by massive omission, right?
[2:05:20] Yeah, I wasn't straight up honest with her.
[2:05:22] No, you lied. You misrepresented enormously.
[2:05:26] Okay.
[2:05:27] Because you have significant problems with your family, which you knew about, and you lied. So why did you lie? And I'm not saying this from a moral standpoint. I'm genuinely curious. Why did you lie?
[2:05:45] I didn't think the problems were that big.
[2:05:47] No you'd already been listening to me, and when i was talking to you when you were talking about being abandoned by your parents when you were seven you were very emotional about that right let's you can't hide that right yeah so why did you lie, i mean did you tell did you tell her that you had been left in your country of origin for years when your parents and your sister went to america.
[2:06:17] Yeah i just didn't word it that way so it kind of hit me differently emotionally so.
[2:06:22] What did you roughly what did you say yeah.
[2:06:24] Oh my parents came to america then later on i came with my grandparents well.
[2:06:30] Your parents and your sister yeah.
[2:06:33] My parents and my sister came to america.
[2:06:35] Okay so then the first question would be well why did they leave you behind i mean that's an obvious question right yeah.
[2:06:41] Okay it was immigration paperwork and i would just push there on the side i never really wanted to deep thought into that process and.
[2:06:50] No no but she would ask those questions because she would want to vet you as the potential father for her children, right? So she would want to ask you questions about your family. What sort of people are they? Because I'm marrying into a whole family. They're going to be the grandparents to my children. They've had the biggest influence on you of anyone. So let me ask questions. Let me at least ask the kind of questions that an employer asks when he's hiring someone to be a waiter. but she didn't want to know and you didn't want to tell her, right?
[2:07:37] Yeah.
[2:07:39] So, but why didn't you tell her? Why did you minimize it? And again, I don't mean this from a moral standpoint, genuinely curious, why would you minimize it? I mean, I can tell you why, if you like, because I know we've been talking for a long time.
[2:07:53] Yeah.
[2:07:54] Because you didn't want to give her any reason to reject you. because you sensed that she lied to herself about her family, and so you lied to her about your family. Because if you'd have said, I have significant criticisms of my family and how I was treated, what would have happened?
[2:08:26] Sorry, still there?
[2:08:27] Yeah. If you had had significant criticisms of your family and what had happened, how would that have affected your dating?
[2:08:36] She would have considered it more like, is it worth marrying into this family?
[2:08:41] Well, she would have said, oh my gosh, this guy... This guy really goes deep into family issues. issues in his own family, which means he's going to do it with my family too, and what would have happened?
[2:09:00] They would have shown the flaws in her family.
[2:09:03] Well, and what practical thing would have happened?
[2:09:08] We wouldn't have had a relationship.
[2:09:11] Yeah, she would have, her parents would, her inner parents would have told her to dump you. So you withheld the trouble in your own family because you knew that if you revealed the trouble in your own family, she would have dumped you. Because her inner parents can't handle criticism, her mother can't handle criticism, which is why she can't handle criticism. And because she can't handle, people who can't handle criticism don't even like to see real criticism. Because they know that if somebody's capable of real criticism, it's going to be applied to them.
[2:09:58] Yeah. That makes sense.
[2:10:02] So why did you want to be in a relationship where you had to lie?
[2:10:09] I didn't realize I was lying by holding certain aspects.
[2:10:14] Yes. Oh, come on, man. Don't even try. Don't even try with me. you knew that you were on the edge of a cliff and you took a step back, You knew it. You knew it.
[2:10:29] I didn't think my childhood was that traumatic until today.
[2:10:35] Well, but you've been listening to me, right? So did you ever go to therapy?
[2:10:40] I guess I was lucky to ever self-diagnose myself and think of my own flaws.
[2:10:45] But you still avoided. You minimized based upon what you told me, right? Yeah. So minimization is avoidance, right?
[2:10:55] Yeah.
[2:10:56] Okay. So what is the value of women outside of sex?
[2:11:10] Getting our relationship back together.
[2:11:13] I'm sorry?
[2:11:15] Like fixing our relationship.
[2:11:17] No, no, sorry. Sorry, what is the, like, in your family, right, like, in your family, what is the value of women outside of sex?
[2:11:26] Women. Sorry, I thought I'm winning.
[2:11:28] No, no, sorry, women, yeah.
[2:11:30] Women. It's to take care of the household, help with the kids, raise the kids, have a good conversation with them after. but somebody that's smart and intellectual.
[2:11:49] Okay, so how does that apply to your wife? You can't have good conversations with her. She's not very efficient at running the household. She was hormonal before she gave birth and had postpartum depression afterwards so she was not particularly good at raising the kids, at least early on, right?
[2:12:11] She's not modeling a healthy relationship for your children, neither are you. So if those are your standards of value, how did your girlfriend meet them?
[2:12:29] It's in front of our kids. We can push everything aside, so that's not an issue. We hide everything.
[2:12:35] Oh, come on, man. Come on. Come on. Please don't tell me you think you have an invisibility cloak in front of your children, and they have absolutely zero idea, even at an instinctual level, of any dysfunction regarding their parents' marriage.
[2:12:53] They might send something, but yeah, I try to tell her like, hey, even though we're not getting along, this is between you and me and just the kids are going to be...
[2:13:02] But they don't see spontaneous and happy affection?
[2:13:05] No, they don't. Right.
[2:13:07] So that's important. Because you're training them that marriage is cold, efficient, and functional, and you're like surly roommates who pretend to get along. Is that selling them on marriage? Will they want to get married when they get older? i mean the harm that you're doing to your kids both of you is not good and this is why you should be working on your marriage because this idea that you think you can hide everything from your kids is a delusion yeah kids see everything you've got the whole world to process they all they do is process what goes on in the home the.
[2:13:38] Happiness affection it happens like maybe once or twice a month i don't know what's different like one day i might get home and she might be in a good mood but it's a rare occasion and i don't know what might be causing that so.
[2:13:50] Okay you have a son right yeah okay will your son want your life when he gets older.
[2:13:59] Uh hopefully not i want to want him in the situation.
[2:14:02] Okay so how are you going to teach him how to avoid it if there's no red flags are you going to say well so you'll date a woman she seems fantastic for the first couple of years and then she'll just turn on you like a pit viper and you can't predict it, there's no way to know ahead of time. What the hell, man?
[2:14:19] Yeah.
[2:14:23] Are you a Christian man?
[2:14:25] Yeah. Right.
[2:14:27] So, would you say that you're somewhere around hell at the moment?
[2:14:34] I would say so.
[2:14:35] All right. Hell is the punishment for what?
[2:14:41] Sin. Yeah. Okay.
[2:14:43] What sins did you commit to get here?
[2:14:51] I wasn't that great to women when I was in my dating phase. I would have multiple women.
[2:14:56] Oh, you cheated on women?
[2:14:59] I wouldn't cheat. It was mostly open relationships, and they were fully aware of it. But I always had multiple women with me. I had a lot of girls, friends as well.
[2:15:13] Oh, so you're pretty good looking too, right?
[2:15:15] Yeah. Okay.
[2:15:17] And what's your body count?
[2:15:20] 11. Okay.
[2:15:22] So you had open relationships and you had relationships with women based upon lust, not virtue, right?
[2:15:33] Yeah. Okay.
[2:15:34] So is that the sin of lust? Yes.
[2:15:40] I believe so.
[2:15:40] Now, the sin of lust is based on what Ten Commandment violation? What is the sin of lust?
[2:15:48] I'm not that familiar with the Bible.
[2:15:51] Okay, no problem. Have you ever heard, thou shalt not bear false witness?
[2:15:55] Yeah. Okay.
[2:15:57] So the sin of lust is a particularly dangerous sin because it causes you to lie.
[2:16:07] Okay.
[2:16:07] Now, do you know how lust causes you to lie?
[2:16:11] No.
[2:16:13] Well, you have to pretend that someone has moral qualities that they don't. So you have to say to the woman that you're in lust with, you have to say, you're wonderful, you're great, you're good, I love you. I love your person, I love your soul, I love your mind, I love your virtues. Because you can't be honest and say, well, I don't particularly like you, but you've got a smoking bod that I want to bang.
[2:16:41] Well, some of the girls, it was just more physical, and they were aware of that. It's like, hey, we're just something. We're not going to do anything with this. Let's just have some fun. That was all it was. It wasn't lying.
[2:16:53] Okay, so you told these women, I don't particularly like you, but I want to use your body for sex.
[2:17:00] Yeah, and it was just like, okay, it's going to be temporary.
[2:17:01] You told these women you don't like them, but you want to use their bodies for sex.
[2:17:09] Yeah.
[2:17:10] No, you didn't. No, you didn't. You said, well, we're just here to have fun. It's not going to really lead anywhere. I'm not really interested in a long-term relationship. Let's just have friends with benefits, right?
[2:17:22] Yeah.
[2:17:22] Yeah, so you didn't say, I dislike you, but I want to use your body for sex.
[2:17:29] Well, it wasn't like I disliked them. It was just neutral. Neutral. The emotional feeling. It wasn't necessarily dislike.
[2:17:41] Okay. So, it meant that they were neither good nor bad, but totally in the middle. Is that right?
[2:17:49] Yeah. Okay.
[2:17:52] So, they were indulging in the sin of lust, right?
[2:17:59] Yeah.
[2:18:00] And you're saying that as a Christian man, you have absolutely no negative feelings towards sinners. Sinners!
[2:18:10] Yeah, at that time I was more of an atheist and I didn't really believe in anything.
[2:18:19] So it's not that you judged them good or bad, you simply suspended judgment completely.
[2:18:25] Yeah. Okay.
[2:18:27] Looking back, looking back as a Christian man now, and the morals didn't disappear when you didn't believe in them, right?
[2:18:35] No.
[2:18:35] So looking back, were they sinners?
[2:18:43] The women, yes. Yes.
[2:18:44] And so was I. Were you a sinner?
[2:18:46] Yeah.
[2:18:46] Okay. So can you be neutral about sin as a whole? I don't mean like if you don't believe in Christianity, well, I mean, but the morals are still there, right? The devil doesn't get you to do evil. The devil gets you to suspend judgment, right?
[2:19:01] Yeah.
[2:19:02] And through suspending judgment, you get corrupted.
[2:19:06] And that's what I did. And I was an atheist, and I was just free will and whatever, do whatever you want.
[2:19:12] And okay and for how long did your atheist phase and i really appreciate the length of this conversation it's very important for how long did your atheist phase last.
[2:19:22] Um it was just honestly like a year or two years ago i stopped.
[2:19:30] Oh so you were an atheist when you courted dated got engaged got married and had kids yeah yes ah okay, And is your wife religious?
[2:19:45] She is. She's Christian.
[2:19:47] So why is a Christian dating a sinning atheist?
[2:19:56] Perhaps they thought it was like a phase I was going through. No.
[2:20:00] Come on, man. There's your red flag. How could you not see this? How could you not tell him? Why did I have to trip over this after two and a half hours? Your wife is a Christian. You were a sinning atheist.
[2:20:19] She knew I was an atheist, but she didn't know I was sinning. I had a couple of girlfriends and everything. I'm sorry.
[2:20:26] Did she ask you about your romantic and sexual history, as all responsible people should, Because in case you might have an STD or a stalker or some other problem.
[2:20:37] She mentioned it.
[2:20:38] Okay, so she asked you about your sexual history. Did you say, I was in open, polyamorous, multiple partner relationships?
[2:20:47] Or, well, I wasn't necessarily in an open relationship like that. I was open on my end. You called them open.
[2:20:54] Not me.
[2:20:55] Yeah, yeah, I was open on my end, but the women, they were just only with me only.
[2:21:02] So the women, so you had a bunch of women you told them you would never commit to them or you weren't going to commit to them they were monogamous to you but you were sleeping around.
[2:21:13] Yeah.
[2:21:13] So this is women without a shred of self-respect.
[2:21:17] Yeah. Okay.
[2:21:19] So they were kind of trashy or broken or traumatized or crushingly low self-esteem or something like that, right?
[2:21:29] Yeah, some were.
[2:21:31] Well, no. No woman who really cares for a man is going to share her with other women. And who has self-respect.
[2:21:40] And some of them, they didn't know I was still sleeping with other women when I was talking to them.
[2:21:46] No, you told me you were honest with them.
[2:21:51] Some of them, I was honest with. But some of them, I had to lie about.
[2:21:57] What do you mean you had to?
[2:21:59] Yeah, so pretty much I left out.
[2:22:01] Stop being Weasley, brother. No, come on. It's not funny. Stop lying to me.
[2:22:07] One in particular.
[2:22:08] I can't help you if you keep lying.
[2:22:10] Yeah.
[2:22:12] So you lied to women and exploited them.
[2:22:17] Yeah. There's been times where I didn't mention that I was seeing somebody else.
[2:22:22] Oh, please. Oh, fuck, man. You're killing me here. Look, I'm going to tell you, I'm happy to finish this conversation, but you have to stop lying yeah I didn't mention to some like come on you lied.
[2:22:34] Yeah I lied.
[2:22:35] And I get it we've all done it I mean men are men we're a bit hound dogs but let's just be honest about that right yeah, so you slept with women under false pretenses you pretended to be monogamous when you weren't yes and you exposed them to the risk of venereal disease which they didn't know about right.
[2:22:59] Well I didn't see it that way the way I saw it was.
[2:23:02] Who cares what you see I mean it's not like if you don't see the crabs they're not in your pubic hair, you exposed women well you had sex with women under false pretenses and exposed them to the risk of venereal disease without telling them of the risk, yeah so that's pretty bad.
[2:23:32] I just didn't see it. It was that bad at the time. It was just...
[2:23:36] No, but you're still... Oh my God, man. You're killing me. But you're still minimizing it now. What do you mean at the time? You're a Christian man now. Don't you look back and learn from your sins? And don't you have to be honest and direct? Have you not prayed for guidance and have you not confessed your sins? Am I missing how Christianity works these days? I was raised Christian.
[2:24:03] Maybe it's changed, I just thought it was like part of the college experience and just exploring Okay.
[2:24:11] Thought or think?
[2:24:13] Yeah, I've made a hundred Thought at the time or think now?
[2:24:19] Thought Okay, so now, why are you minimizing now?
[2:24:25] Because I don't want to seem like a terrible person So.
[2:24:31] Do you think you my god okay let me ask you this maybe you want to hide it from me do you think you can hide it from god do you think that if you minimize it god's like well yeah i don't see anything nothing here to see i can't pierce that veil no so don't you need to be frank right i've been frank i mean i two-timed a girl in high school and i lied and right i mean i didn't well i failed to right i didn't quite mention the right i mean i wasn't sleeping with the women but not the girls but but nonetheless, right?
[2:25:01] Mm-hmm.
[2:25:02] So, your girlfriend, see, you're both just into looks. So why would she, as a Christian woman, why would she date, get engaged, or get married and have kids with an amoral atheist? Right. And by amoral means immoral by her standards, right?
[2:25:32] Yeah.
[2:25:32] Denies the existence not only of God, but of virtues, values, and morals themselves. Who's a hedonist. Why would a Christian woman date, get engaged to, get married to, and have children with an immoral atheist?
[2:25:51] We didn't look at that. We were mostly physical attractiveness. Right.
[2:25:55] So she fell prey to the sin of lust, and you fell prey to the sin of lust. yeah which caused you to bear false witness to pretend that you liked each other's morals and character when in fact you were just hungry for the flesh, and you held your nose on each other's morals and character in order to get your rocks off I mean to be blunt right yeah and now the wages of sin is hell, so you can take sex based upon a kind of deception and then it costs you that sex later on because a woman can have sex out of lust but after a while she needs to have sex out of closeness, and she's not close to you because you guys aren't admitting that you started off in completely the wrong direction and you need to find a way to fix it for the sake of the kids, that you have a relationship founded on the sin of lust and a marriage founded on the sin of lust and you need to fix that. But the first thing you need to do is admit it.
[2:27:08] Yeah.
[2:27:09] I mean, tell me if I'm wrong. Obviously, this is a hypothesis.
[2:27:16] Yeah, I've tried talking to her regarding fixing it, but it was just mostly me working on it.
[2:27:21] But you're still minimizing it.
[2:27:24] Yeah, you're right.
[2:27:25] You're still lying. You can't ask the truth from people that you're still lying about. Your relationship with your wife can't be better than your relationship with your own conscience and God himself. And I understand the impulse to minimize, to evade, to it wasn't that bad, you know, I just withheld this and come on. Thou shalt not bear false witness. Do not lie about matters of moral import.
[2:28:03] Yeah, so we never really started off our marriage in the proper direction.
[2:28:08] Well, the dating.
[2:28:09] Yeah, the dating.
[2:28:11] So the reason that you're not having sex now is you, as souls, never had sex in the past. Only your bodies did, to the alienation of your souls. And now your souls are so distant, your bodies don't connect. and you are still subject to the sin of lust because you want to have sex with your wife when you're not emotionally close to her. Which is why she doesn't want to have sex with you because she doesn't want to get used for her body, while you don't like her personality. She doesn't want to be a piece of meat to you.
[2:28:52] Yeah.
[2:28:52] And this is part of the coldness from your family. If you can't fix the emotional intimacy, your sex life will not resume. Now, whether you can or cannot fix the emotional intimacy, maybe that's a job for couples counseling, maybe that's a job for meeting with your priest, maybe that's a job for mutual prayer, I don't know, because that's not my area of expertise. But if you break the marriage based upon this, it will simply happen again. You're in a law of eternal cycle, which happens when we avoid the truth. And listen, I sympathize. I really do. I'm not trying to condemn you in any way, shape, or form here. I have great sympathy for all of this. I really do. Hundred percent. You weren't taught emotional closeness by your parents. And you have in your parents' relationship, or non-relationship, you have this foundation that you don't have to like each other. You don't have to respect each other. You just kind of have to hang out together. And you don't have to be honest. In fact, honesty would probably destroy the relationship. So you have, as your foundational parental relationship, and this is the price of having highly dysfunctional and unfixable parents, if they are unfixable in your life, is that that's your standard. You hold your nose around people's personality just to be around them for the sake of whatever, right? In your parents' case, it's sentimentality and fear, and in your wife's case, it's lust and desire.
[2:30:20] But you've got to find a way to connect with people's souls, with their heart, with their mind, with their deepest thoughts. Otherwise, you're going to end up in this skating on the surface, constant bickering and wasting and annoyance. Do you like your wife? Does she like you for the qualities of your soul, virtue, and character? not yet I'm not saying it's impossible but you both got to start upping your game and being honest, being really honest now maybe that honesty breaks you through to each other, just because you started off driving the wrong direction doesn't mean you can't turn around and get to the right destination.
[2:30:59] Yeah I know we have a long way her and I need to work things out alright.
[2:31:06] Alright how's that for you as a whole I know we chatted for a long time but I think it was really important.
[2:31:10] Yeah, very useful, Stefan.
[2:31:14] All right. Will you keep me posted about how things are going?
[2:31:17] Will do, absolutely.
[2:31:18] All right. Listen, great job, brother. I really look forward to hearing from you about how things are going. And if there's anything else I can do, please let me know. But I would strongly suggest some sort of marital counseling, maybe faith-based and so on, so you can connect with each other's souls. All right. Thank you for your call today. I really appreciate it. I'll talk to you soon, hopefully.
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