0:00 - Introduction
9:04 - Uncovering Past Aggressions
14:58 - Seeking Improvement Despite Challenges
21:58 - Discovering Early Signs of Aggression
26:01 - Questioning Past Decisions
30:10 - Choosing for Looks or Virtues
40:10 - Suicidal Tendencies and Therapy
50:38 - Seeking a Way Out
1:06:42 - Revisiting Infancy
1:10:16 - Unexpected Roomba Incident
1:17:53 - Emotional Detachment Lesson
1:21:19 - Dealing with Suicidal Ideation
1:25:22 - Crisis of Faith
1:29:27 - Finding the Missing Piece
In this segment, I engage in a conversation with a caller who opens up about his relationship struggles. The caller expresses feeling overwhelmed by anger and helplessness, describing conflicts that have escalated to physical altercations. Together, we explore the root causes of these issues, including the self-attacking behavior exhibited by his wife. Despite having undergone therapy, the caller seeks advice on managing his anger and minimizing its impact on their children. Our conversation delves into the importance of seeking clarity and identifying areas for improvement as they navigate through this challenging situation.
As the host, I dig deep into a discussion with the caller about his marriage, focusing on his wife's behavior, particularly her aggression, and questioning his reasons for continuing the relationship. The caller candidly admits to regretting the marriage and shares details about his wife's mental health struggles and increased aggressive behavior following the birth of their children. I probe into the caller's decision-making process, pointing out inconsistencies and questioning his motivations for staying in the marriage. Ultimately, the caller acknowledges his feelings of regret, and I offer guidance while prompting him to reflect on his wife's past behavior and the dynamics of their relationship.
The conversation takes a poignant turn as the caller expresses concerns about his partner's traumatic childhood experiences, which have led to suicidal thoughts and actions post-childbirth. We discuss the challenges of therapy, potential separation, and the crucial need to seek help for his partner's mental health issues. Amidst these difficult circumstances, the caller weighs options for the well-being of their twins, and I question the therapist's approach while guiding the caller on next steps to support his partner and family effectively.
As the caller shares his wife's overwhelming feelings and despair during therapy sessions, I offer insights on detachment, forgiveness, and personal responsibility within relationships. Using analogies of a malfunctioning Roomba and disruptive noises during vacations, I illustrate to the caller that his wife's crisis is not a personal attack on him. I encourage emotional detachment from the situation and highlight the impact of his wife's unresolved childhood traumas on their marriage. The caller grapples with the challenge of not taking things personally, and I stress the importance of making conscious choices and avoiding a victim mentality. Together, we navigate the complexities of the situation, recognizing the wife's past trauma resurfacing and the need for understanding and patience in their relationship.
In our conversation, I address the caller's struggles with emotional detachment and navigating intricate family dynamics, especially concerning his wife's childhood traumas. I emphasize the significance of not internalizing his wife's actions personally and provide insights into understanding her behaviors. Encouraging the caller to cultivate emotional self-control and acknowledge past influences, I offer support in managing the challenging situation. We explore themes of self-awareness, empathy, and emotion management within relationships, stressing the importance of setting boundaries and maintaining perspective when facing personal challenges and family complexities.
[0:00] Hey, Stef, can you hear me?
[0:01] Yes, you can hear me, all right. All right, are you both here?
[0:05] It's just me right now. Just you.
[0:07] Okay, no problem at all. No problem at all. So, gosh, sorry to hear about all that's going on. Break it down for me, brother.
[0:15] Sure. Would you like me to start by reading my email?
[0:19] Sure.
[0:19] Hello, Stef. We've talked twice before, and you've also spoken with my wife. Last time we've spoke, you pointed out that due to appeasing for much of our relationship in the early going, It's the general unhappiness that my wife and I are experiencing due to subsidy. I've employed more assertiveness at your suggestion and found my wife a therapist. In many ways, things have destabilized to the point where we can barely enjoy each other's company. Both of our inner parents are in full force now, which has given way to me feeling extremely angry, which has led to some fights between us. One of these got physical, with both of us shoving one another, something I've never done before and feel disgusted about. I'm angry all the time. Working out does help some, but without a methodology that we both adhere to, things devolve rather rapidly. I feel helpless and hopeless. I haven't been dreaming much lately, which also concerns me. I feel like both of our parents must be laughing at how things have turned out. I want to improve our situation, but also feel angry that I feel like I always have to be the one to take initiative in improving our situation. As this leans back into my prior appeasement, sometimes I daydream of being alone. But since we have kids, this is not an option. I don't want to be violent, especially around our children. This feels like an emergency. I can use your clarity and always appreciate your time.
[1:41] Yeah, I'm sorry to hear that. Remind me how old are your kids again?
[1:44] They're six months now they're twins.
[1:46] Oh twins six months right yeah and yeah tell me what led to the pushing match, well.
[2:02] I haven't been sleeping really well lately. I took a job recently and I work nights. It's only three nights a week, but usually on my day off, I sleep in a little bit just to kind of try to recover a little bit. And oftentimes, you know, we're in a rural cabin and my wife will be kind of in the cabin just sort of just yelling, not directly at the children, but just yelling. Like how bad things have gotten and how she regrets a lot of the things that she's done, sort of just gets into these repetitive loops where she just keeps repeating the same thing over and over again, which will wake me up from my sleep. And then I'll go out there and try to manage the situation to no effect. And then after experiencing this for weeks, actually months, you know, I told her pretty curtly to stop yelling in front of the kids. you know the children are going to internalize this stuff they're starting to get really vocal and it really upsets me that you know they're hearing a lot of this stuff and you know she got in my face and said she doesn't know what else she can do and you know just kind of you know she's screaming at me and i'm you know i start screaming at her and she shoves me and i.
[3:21] Shove her back and she went back a couple feet and you know she just fell down on her butt you and injure her. As soon as I did that, I realized, oh my God, I can't believe I just did that. You know, she starts crying and I start crying.
[3:41] Yeah. While there hasn't been any more of that, this was probably, probably a month ago or so, maybe a little longer. I wouldn't say things have improved. It's just, now it's just the, quick to shout, quick to anger kind of stuff. And I'm very angry these days. I'm very angry at the way things have kind of turned out. I'm very angry in many ways. It seems like we're kind of acting out to some degree some of the stuff that we saw in our own childhood and the thought of my children absorbing any of this and acting this out when they have children or before that sickens me.
[4:25] And what do you hope to get out of the call with me?
[4:39] Just some things that I'm not seeing clearly, I suppose.
[4:46] Sorry, it seems like you're seeing some things really clearly. I don't know if they're accurate or not, but it seems that you're saying, well, my wife keeps repeating these statements about how she is unhappy and regrets everything she's done and so on. And this goes on for weeks or months until you lose your temper. I mean, that's the causality, as far as I understand it, from your perspective.
[5:10] Yeah, it seems to be the case. I've thought about it some, and it seems that being more assertive hasyou said this in our last conversation, that something to the effect of be prepared, that she doesn't maybe respond well to your assertion, but obviously for the best. And we've had some conversations relating to that. And while she agrees in the moment, you know, then when I start to be a little more strong, I get a lot of pushback.
[5:44] So i'm still not sure what it is that i mean if it's if it's all her and she's just repeatedly, talking about how regretful she is of her life and this goes on for weeks or months i mean that would drive anybody crazy right so i'm not saying violent but it would drive everybody it would push you you know it would push you pretty hard right push all your buttons pretty hard so if she's making all the mistakes and you're just reacting to her meanness or cruelty or self-pity or whatever she's doing, then I'm not sure what I can do. If she's making all the mistakes and she's just angry because you're more assertive and then she's just bitter about her life as a whole, and you're not doing anything wrong, then I'm not sure what we would be talking about. I Again, I'm sorry to sound dense and I'm sure I'm missing something, but I'm not sure what I would, what advice I would give or what I would say, if that makes sense.
[6:44] No, that makes perfect sense. Surely in these, in these, you know, in these terse moments, I guess it's just, I mean, that thing you said, sure. of anyone crazy.
[7:05] Why don't you tell me, you've heard these statements for months about how she regrets everything and how, whatever, I mean, I'm not sure exactly, so give me the speech you've been hearing for a couple of months, what does she say?
[7:19] Sure. Um, If only after the twins were born, I had just listened to some of the things my therapist was saying and some of the things that I had learned from Stefan Molyneux and Daniel Brandon. If only I did that, this wouldn't be so bad. If only I wasn't suicidal, this would have been so bad. If only I never called my mom a couple months ago, this wouldn't be so bad. If only it goes on and on. But those are the main things that she constantly refrains to. If only she had listened to you and some other authors, if only she never called her mom, and if only she had not been suicidal after our children were born, things would be a lot better.
[8:04] I mean, that's kind of tautological, right? I mean, if only I hadn't been suicidal, things would be a lot better. It's like, well, yeah, I mean, by definition, that would be the case. And so, sorry if we had talked about this. I know we talked in March, but what was it that, did she talk to her mom after we talked? or was it some other time?
[8:28] Um, yeah. So, so we, you know, last time me and you spoke was in March. She had, yeah, she had reached out to her mother maybe like a week or two before me and you had spoke and had asked her something to the effect of like, mom, I'm having a bit of a break. I need to know that I have a safe place to land in case things don't work out, you know, with my husband and kids. And, We thought this was a big break in the trust and a big betrayal, and we had some conversations related to that.
[8:59] Okay, so your wife has regret about contacting her mother?
[9:04] Right.
[9:05] And what is her regret?
[9:09] She says that if I had not called my mother, I wouldn't be acting as crazy as I'm acting by calling my mother.
[9:18] I'm sorry, she's referring to herself. herself so your wife says that i as in your wife would not be acting as crazy right yes okay, so did she then sort of resolve to not call her mother again if calling her mother and made her crazy yes.
[9:39] She would not call her mother and she you know she claims and she and i believe her that she's never going to call her again.
[9:44] Okay so i mean if calling her mother made her crazy and then she's realized that and she's not going to call her mother again. Then she's solved the problem that she didn't. I mean, she, she has to call the mother cause she thought there'd be a positive outcome. And if there was a negative outcome, then she's learned something and solved her, her problem. Right. I mean, she's not going to call her mother. Right.
[10:07] And I've said as much to her.
[10:08] No, I'm sure you have. So what's, what's her response to that?
[10:14] Well, now I, you know, well, I just wish I never called her cause I feel terrible.
[10:22] Well, but she doesn't feel terrible because she called her mother. That's not causal. Because, I mean, you feel terrible if somebody pounds your hand with a rock. That's common to everyone, I guess, maybe, unless you're some kind of masochist, right? So she doesn't feel terrible because she calls her mom, right? I mean, that's not causal. That's not logical. She feels terrible because of some thought she has in her head, right? It's not an objective thing. You know, my daughter calls her mom My wife My daughter calls her mom and she doesn't feel terrible, So, it's not because she calls her mom I mean, you know that, right? It's some other thought she has about it all So what's the thought that she has about Calling her mom that makes her feel terrible?
[11:15] I asked her this and she said that, It was like a grave betrayal of the family.
[11:24] Okay, so let's say she did this grave betrayal of the family, and then she learned that it was a bad idea, and she won't do it again, right? Right. So are you grinding her about this? Are you grinding her gears about this? Are you telling her what a grave betrayal it was? Are you the voice in her head that's making her feel terrible, or is it something else?
[11:44] I i mean i can't i how i've responded every single time that she brought this up is i tell her pretty honestly like i'm not bringing this stuff up i don't talk about your mom with you or i'm not you know okay so you're handling it you're handling it well.
[12:03] Right i'm i'm obviously gonna i i don't have any other source of information so i'm not gonna doubt you so So you're handling it well, and that's not your perspective. You don't consider it a grave betrayal. I mean, it was a lesson learned. You know, sometimes you have to stick the fork in the socket to learn not to stick the fork in the socket. And I guess she learned that with her mother.
[12:20] Right. Yeah.
[12:23] Okay.
[12:23] I see it.
[12:24] Okay. So if it's not coming from you, then what is the thought? Does she think that, like, she's a piece of trash because she did this grave betrayal or something?
[12:37] Yeah, that seems to be the case.
[12:40] Okay, so does she feel that the grave betrayal is causing you to suffer? Is it guilt about causing you to suffer?
[12:51] It seems to be more it's causing her to suffer.
[12:54] But why? Why is it causing her to suffer? What's the thought that she has in her head that is causing her to suffer?
[12:59] I don't know. that she didn't meet her, whatever sort of expectations she had about being a mother, I think.
[13:08] Okay, I don't know what that means. I mean, did she betray the six-year-old? Sorry, did she betray the six-month-old kids? I mean, they don't even know what's going on.
[13:20] And it's interesting that you say that, because she'll start saying that, like, I feel like I've also betrayed the kids by telling my mom. I'm like, they don't know any of this. They've never met her. They're never going to meet her.
[13:30] Okay, but this is also foundationally ridiculous. I'm sorry to be annoying, right? But I mean, her lacerating herself is a bigger betrayal of the family than calling her mom, right? Calling her mom is like a 5 or 10 or 20 minute thing that's been going on, as you say, for months, right? Right?
[13:51] Yeah.
[13:52] So this is, like, her self-attacking for calling her mother is causing more suffering to the family than this big betrayal thing, right?
[14:03] Bravely more, and I pointed this out as well.
[14:05] Okay, so again, if you're handling it perfectly, then I don't know why we're talking. Like, why are you and I talking and I'm not talking with your wife? Because if you're handling it perfectly, then I don't have any advice for you, right? right if you're a if you're a perfectly healthy weight and you call the nutritionist they're going to say well yeah but my wife is obese it's like well then i should talk to her right.
[14:32] Well i wouldn't i wouldn't say i'm you know getting physical would wouldn't wouldn't be handling things.
[14:40] Perfectly but you were you said she pushed you and you pushed her back so you know i mean it was to some degree It was a responsive action, which doesn't make it ideal, but you're not clocking her out of nowhere, right?
[14:55] Right.
[14:58] So if there's nothing for you to do to improve, then I'm not sure what advice I can give you.
[15:13] I guess I just felt like there has to be something I can do to improve.
[15:17] But if the problem is all coming from your wife, which is what you're telling me, then how can you improve?
[15:29] I don't know, because we're even doing group therapy, and we have a therapist helping bring us through all this.
[15:39] Okay. so you're doing you're doing everything right and and so again i'm i'm not sure what advice to give you i mean we can talk about your anger if you like but i mean i can understand the anger it's kind of frustration at her continuing to self-attack months after she calls her mom right is that the basic issue that.
[16:00] Is the basic issue.
[16:01] Okay so i mean if you're not doing anything wrong And I can understand the anger. I mean, we can talk about the anger, but if the basic behavior of self-attack on the part of your wife is still continuing, then, I mean, could we talk about, I mean, do you want to talk about anger management strategies or what do you want to talk about?
[16:25] Yeah, I suppose, like, thinking on your question, I suppose anger management strategies and or, I guess at this point, I'm just trying to do a little bit of damage control with the children. And what's the best thing I can do? I know you can't tell me what to do, but, like, what makes the most sense for them? Like, you know, what would be the best thing I could possibly do for them at this point? If this is more or less kind of all... I can expect.
[16:59] And are you, I mean, I've given you a couple of outs here now, and I just want to be up front. Are you genuinely sure that you're doing everything just right? I mean, you're talking about how to improve upon a difficult situation.
[17:15] Yes.
[17:15] Are you convinced in your conscience that you're doing everything just right? because that would be an amazing thing given the dysfunction that you've had in your marriage.
[17:26] No i'm not convinced.
[17:28] So why are you telling me that you're doing everything just right.
[17:33] Well there's something i think i'm missing.
[17:36] No no no you're that's not what you're telling me you're telling me that you're doing everything just right, right i mean you can listen back to this after the recording like you can listen back and and i'm doing this just right and my wife is the problem and i'm doing that i'm handling this right and i couldn't do any better with that and right that's that's what's going on right, that's what you're telling me if.
[18:01] That was the right but if that was the case then surely things can be the problem.
[18:08] Well, then you'd have the not insubstantial challenge of explaining how you married a crazy woman when you're wonderful in everything you do.
[18:25] Well, in our last conversation, you pointed out that, in the early goings, I had been very appeasing um which is kind of so the ground a lot yes you know whenever you know she would get aggressive i would just sort of not the sort of i would you know capitulate often, this went on for for years so in many ways i imagine a lot of you know this course correction stuff I'm doing, it goes back to the ounce of prevention being better than pound of care thing. I find myself just kind of coming up against, I imagine, a lot of resentment. Maybe not having, you know, not a piece or sooner. Make that make sense?
[19:16] Sorry, the resentment, is it within you for, sorry, is the resentment within you or within your wife?
[19:27] I'd say both of us. I feel like I'm definitely brushing against resentment with her in these conversations I'm having with her. Even just putting her in therapy, it's almost like there's this underlying thing going on where it's like, why did it take you so long to stop appeasing me kind of thing?
[19:46] Sorry, she's angry because you appeased her?
[19:50] In the past, yes.
[19:52] Okay. So, she's not saying, I'm sorry, I was a bully. She's saying, I'm angry at you for letting me bully you.
[20:06] That's right.
[20:06] Okay. So, has she apologized for being a bully?
[20:13] No, she has not. Okay.
[20:15] So, again, you're doing everything perfectly, and she's the one at fault. I don't know if you stop if you stop if you stop appeasing someone and they just get angry at you because you were appeasing them in the past without recognizing, that they bullied you and that that was you know and that they picked you to appease them right I mean if if she's she picked you because you appeased her and that's what she wanted or that's what her you know in her parents wanted or whatever so she picked you for appeasing her and then it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to get angry at you for doing exactly what she picked you to do, right? That's like me hiring a doctor and then getting really angry that he's a doctor.
[21:00] It's logical. That makes perfect sense.
[21:03] And you hired her. Oh, sorry. You, I guess, right. You married her to bully you, right? I mean, is that way off the mark? I mean, because that's what you were used to and Simon the Boxer and repetition, compulsion.
[21:15] That's not way off the mark. That's, yeah, that's right.
[21:19] I mean, that's just the tragic history repeating itself stuff that we all understand. So, if you picked her because she was aggressive, then why are you shocked that she's, or why are you upset that she's aggressive? I mean, how long have you, sorry, just remind me, how long have you guys been together?
[21:58] Um, married for going on two years together, about six years altogether.
[22:03] About six years. And when did you first notice that she was aggressive?
[22:11] Um, it had to have been year one. It had to be year one.
[22:15] Okay.
[22:16] Probably within the first few months, I imagine.
[22:18] The first, I'm sorry, the first how many months?
[22:22] Probably for six months so.
[22:24] For the first six months until she became aggressive she was sweet as sugar and pleasant and compliant and there were no problems and then.
[22:33] She had go ahead no.
[22:36] You go ahead i.
[22:38] Was just gonna say she had recently gotten on i mean that's super recently but she had recent ishly gotten on antidepressants so i think a lot of that you you know, feel good, happy stuff. I think a lot of that was just like the serotonin she was getting from the medication.
[22:53] Well, yeah, I mean, my understanding is they can't find any link between serotonin and depression. So I don't know that they're happy, happy joy pills or anything like that. But so she showed no signs of aggression for the first six months.
[23:13] Not that I can remember it right at the top of my hand right now. um it was like a lot of just like jovial laughing instrument playing joke telling movie watching we didn't i didn't it really wasn't until i started like really you know probing about some of the parental stuff and her childhood is when things started to you know escalate a little bit.
[23:40] So what do you mean by escalate a little bit.
[23:45] Well, at that point, she was very Christian, and she had told me to some degree that she had forgiven her father for all the abuses he had inflicted upon her and her sisters. And I probed, and honestly, I probably was pretty brutish about it at that time compared to now. But I essentially just said, well, I don't know if that's actual forgiveness. you know you can't like will yourself to forgive you know someone who's you know caused you like physical and mental damage i don't know if it's a great idea for you to you know to see this person just things like that and she like kind of lashed out at me that was like the first time i actually saw some real aggression from her i remember us actually i think it was around like christmas time or something and i was being like watching christmas lights in a car and be kind of like talking about how i just don't think that it could be true that she had this real coming to jesus moment to forgive her father because you know he's he's a monster she got remember i don't remember what she said it was something like essentially like how dare you like try to, say that how dare you undermine this religious experience i had or wow something to that effect so.
[24:57] She could forgive her father but not you right so she could forgive her father who brutalized her but not you who questioned.
[25:08] This sentimental forgiveness. Yeah.
[25:14] Okay. She wouldn't get angry at you. Sorry, she wouldn't get angry at her father, but she'd get angry at you. So she's not really that much into forgiveness, right? And also, if she's so much into forgiveness, why doesn't she forgive herself for calling her mother?
[25:31] You know, all the, you know, to be frank, during this whole situation, all of the... fake Christianity stuff that she had, you know, imbibed or, you know, regurgitated. It's all out the window. There's no, there's no 10 commandments, anything going on here. But I hear what you're saying.
[25:48] Certainly no submission to the husband, right?
[25:51] No, none of that's going on. Okay.
[25:58] So, and I'm sorry if we talked about this before, but just to refresh me.
[26:02] So when she lashed out at you for questioning this fake forgiveness, and it does seem like it was fake forgiveness and it certainly was right so if somebody's really into forgiveness and they say well i forgive my father who brutalized me as a child and then you say well i'm not sure that's real forgiveness or that they would say well i i'm upset by your question but i forgive you for asking it like they would really be committed to forgiveness right right okay so she lashes out at you uh aggressively right and i'm just remind me why yeah why did you continue.
[26:50] I thought I could, you know, I thought I could, since she was, you know, claiming to be Christian, I wasn't Christian at that time, mind you, you know, I'd known enough about Christianity to know that there's some, you know, seemed to be some, some virtues in it. I kind of figured this was a person I could work with over time, you know, and, you know, maybe slowly chip away at some of Rice's law.
[27:13] No, but why would you even want to?
[27:15] And you'd say.
[27:15] Like, sorry, why, why would, why wouldn't you just choose someone who wasn't aggressive? and is she abusive when she's aggressive i think she is right, sorry is she she is okay to.
[27:29] Answer your question i you know i'm not glad it wasn't you know i i dated in a state where i was in the process of sorting myself out but i should have just sorted myself out before.
[27:39] Dating doesn't answer the question i'm saying i was messed up doesn't say i mean you could have been so messed up that you would have just dumped her at the first sign of trouble right but you chose to dig in and keep going and then years later you gave her babies right so just remind me to understand i'm sure we talked about this before but why keep going when she's lashing out at you but what's the plus was she super pretty was like what's what's the plus for you she.
[28:11] Was pretty and she was she was you know i know it's funny because i just told of like this lashing out thing, but she was generally pretty sweet on me and sing songs to me and we would talk about, you know, religion and talk about like, you know, her childhood.
[28:27] And how long have you been, sorry to interrupt, how long have you been listening to what I do?
[28:35] Seriously?
[28:36] No, no, no, I don't know what seriously means, just give me the when did you first hear what I do?
[28:43] It must have been 2015 2016 oh.
[28:49] So long before you got involved with this woman right.
[28:52] Yes at least two or three years before.
[28:53] Okay okay and so did you just keep going because she sang songs and was pretty.
[29:05] No, I kept going because she did eventually, you know, she did become amenable to, you know, questioning the way that she was raised and raising these questions and objections to her parents. And she did ultimately, you know, confront them and break from them. You know, after a tragedy happened in her family, I think that really opened her eyes to just how fucked up things were for her. And she couldn't keep making these sort of excuses. And I kept, you know, I kept, you know, I would essentially like, you know, live to fight another day kind of thing where I would like, you know, when she would get really aggressive.
[29:40] No, no, but why, sorry, but why, why wouldn't you, I mean, you can do all of that stuff without lashing out at your partner, right?
[29:49] Yeah, of course.
[29:50] So why would you take the, I mean, you said it's your parents' thing, right? So why, why would you pursue this when she was abusive? I mean, I assume she had some mental health issues if she was already on antidepressants, right?
[30:09] That's correct.
[30:10] Okay, so she has mental health issues, and she's abusive and aggressive. So why plow on? I mean, was it mostly the looks? I mean, if she had been unpleasant looking or overweight, would you have stopped when she's yelling at you or abusing you?
[30:30] You probably not probably definitely like if she was incitely or overweight okay.
[30:35] So you chose her for her looks not her virtues.
[30:42] It doesn't feel quite right.
[30:44] I'm happy to hear the counter argument i mean if you say i wouldn't have continued if she wasn't as attractive then you chose her for her looks, because if you say well her behavior was so negative that if she was average looking or you know ugly or overweight then I wouldn't have continued then you continued for her looks, because that's the variable that swung the decision tree right yeah, you certainly had been listening to me for some years by that point and of course i've always emphasized that love is our involuntary response to virtue if we're virtuous and i wrote a whole book called real-time relationships about how to choose people and all of that right that's right, yes so she regrets sorry well.
[31:34] I was just going to say it at that time i was just really digging into like some of your you know political stuff and some of the stuff you You were, you know, like, the truth, you know, the truth about Trayvon Martin. You know, I didn't really start getting into, like, the bomb in the brain stuff and some of, like, your more self-knowledge stuff maybe a little later.
[31:51] Right, but still before you got married, right?
[31:54] Right. Oh, absolutely before I got married.
[31:56] Okay. So, why are we talking about, I mean, let me ask you this just bluntly, right? Do you regret the marriage? Assuming that there's no magic solution, right? That she's just, she is who she is. How old is she?
[32:16] 29.
[32:17] 29, okay. And how old are you?
[32:21] 32.
[32:22] Boy, man, you sound old beyond your years. Holy crap. And you're carrying a real burden here, right? So do you, I mean, if you could go back to when she was snapping at you or yelling at you in the car, under the fireworks about your father, would you say keep going or would you say turn back?
[32:44] I'd say turn back.
[32:46] Okay. So you regret the marriage?
[32:49] I do.
[32:50] All right. So why are we talking about your wife's regrets?
[33:00] That's a good question.
[33:02] Because you really want me to focus on her, right? Is she better or worse than when you met her?
[33:20] I'd say she's a little better in a lot of ways.
[33:23] That's absolutely not true. Sorry, man. Absolutely not true. I said when you met her, and you said for the first six months she was as sweet as sugar and as right as rain. So she's way worse than when you met her, right? I mean, you compare now to the first six months, right?
[33:44] Oh, yeah. You're right. Like these last, I'll say it's interesting that this has been going on for six months, like all of this now.
[33:51] Mm-hmm.
[33:53] To the day, this is like the babies are six months old. The first six months to these last six months, it's a thousand times worse.
[34:01] Right. And I assume she's had a, I'm sure I asked this before, she's had a health checkup, her hormone levels and all of that, because you know, that stuff can get pretty wild after birth.
[34:10] All of the things I've seen, I've covered all bases. For lab design, yes.
[34:18] Was she, did she go off, I mean, was there a birth control thing? Because sometimes that can affect women's stability as well. Like if you have hormonal birth control.
[34:28] I got her off birth control like year two or three of our dating. and honestly she just started to find me more attractive oh.
[34:36] Okay good good all right.
[34:40] So sorry i'm sorry i got her off of antidepressants and birth control at the second or third year of our dating at around the same time actually.
[34:51] Okay okay and sorry you uh be married sorry if i married for a couple.
[34:58] Of years.
[34:59] And together for six is Is that right?
[35:01] Okay. We've been married almost two years now.
[35:03] Almost two years and married and together for six, right?
[35:06] That's correct.
[35:07] Okay. Now, when did her behavior over the sort of six years that you've known her, when did her behavior slip from occasionally aggressive to, I mean, where she's at right now, which sounds, you know, pretty messed up? What was the sort of arc there? Was it a sudden drop off? You said since the babies or was it before that?
[35:29] Since the babies, since the babies, honestly, like the, interestingly enough, like they were born, you know, around November, the four or five months leading into, you know, while she was pregnant were some of the best months of our entire relationship.
[35:47] Right.
[35:48] She was starting to read a lot of philosophy. She was starting to read a lot. She was having a lot of doubts about her Christianity and she had even renounced it. and she was calling me at work sharing some interesting tidbit or insight she got from one of your shows and we'd talk about these things for hours and.
[36:09] Do you know what her own infancy was like?
[36:14] Can you repeat that?
[36:16] Do you know what her infancy was like when she was a baby?
[36:20] I have my predictions. We talked about it. She doesn't have a lot of memories, but I mean, just based off of the outcomes of her sisters and kind of just the way, because I've met her parents and I've seen them, it must have been absolutely wretched. I think she may have seen her father. I'm just, this is just based off of things. I could be wrong about this, but I think she's seen her father suicidal or maybe even homicidal towards her, one of her sisters. And she's seen her mom like, you know, screaming and them fighting and getting physical with each other. It must have been really bad. When she was born, her mom was in her 40s when she had my wife. And there was like a 10-year gap between her and her older sister. And she had been told, I think, at a really young age that she was a baby, an accident.
[37:22] So what do you mean by the homicidal stuff? Her father homicidal towards his children?
[37:31] Yeah, I think so. So maybe not like maybe in just like his looks, I think he would kind of like shoot daggers into their eyes because my wife has struggled with eye contact in the past. And through therapy, they've kind of discovered that it's probably come from just the kind of murder, like the murderous glares that she's gotten from her parents. you know i it could be even worse than that but whenever needless to say as of late whenever we try to speak on these things it doesn't really go anywhere but before the kids were born we were starting to make a little bit of headway these things were starting to just give me the.
[38:10] Greatest hits of her parents mistreatment of her when she was young.
[38:14] Sure uh the worst thing i think i can think of is of her father and a family friend when she was four years old they were at a public swimming pool and her father and her friend had held her down and she's like drowning and like gasping for air and you know she thought she was going to die and then you know eventually one of them you know released her and she you know she's coughing she had swallowed water and she ran to her mother was you know by the patio screaming and crying like and her mom told her something like it's just a joke don't don't be something i think that's like okay.
[39:01] And what else.
[39:02] I mean.
[39:03] It was the spanking beatings uh neglect.
[39:07] Yeah there was spanking there was daycare there was nine daily spankings for the first seven, eight years.
[39:17] Sorry, daily spankings?
[39:19] That's what, yeah. With a paddle.
[39:22] Oh, with implements. So he was beaten every day for the first seven years of her life?
[39:26] Yeah, beating, yeah.
[39:29] Bro.
[39:30] Sometimes it would be her hand. But oftentimes I think she would use, I think she used the paddle when my wife started to get older and the hand wouldn't hurt as much. if that makes sense.
[39:41] Okay. So she was beaten virtually daily at some point starting, we don't know when, but for the more or less the first seven years of her life. Yeah. And she perceived that her father and his friend tried to kill her.
[39:55] Right.
[39:57] And you thought you were going to talk your way out of these issues?
[40:10] I did.
[40:16] If you had a friend who was dating someone with this history, what would you say?
[40:25] I'd say it's probably too much. This is more than you can probably handle.
[40:33] That's what you would say? Maybe more than you can probably handle?
[40:37] It's more than you can handle.
[40:39] I mean I try not to do my own appendix you know if my appendix ruptures I don't do it with a spork I don't do my own dentist work isn't that a job for professionals.
[40:50] Yeah it's a specialty.
[40:57] Because, I mean, is she triggered because she's getting her early traumas reactivated because of her babies?
[41:05] That's right. You know, her therapist refers to it as like, you know, it burns going down, it burns going up. So, it seems to be the case.
[41:16] And were you expecting that or prepared for that, or did you work that into your calculations?
[41:24] She'd done some therapy before the, leading up to, you know, the kids and she had done a lot of like crying and journaling, like for a couple of years as well during our, you know, last years before the kids were born. I thought that while she may experience some, whether you believe in postpartum depression or not baby blues what happened why i thought that like and we both of us had discussed like you know if that happens you know i'll stop working and we'll you know work this out and take some time to just work it work through that i wouldn't if she were.
[42:05] On the line and i'm sorry that she's not what would she.
[42:07] Say about.
[42:08] You um these days.
[42:14] Oh i've let him down i've no no that's that's that's her.
[42:18] No i don't mean her you what.
[42:20] Would you.
[42:20] Say about you.
[42:36] Why didn't you why didn't you tell me not to do those things Sorry.
[42:41] To do what things?
[42:47] Acting suicidal you know i think suicidal after the babies were born.
[42:51] And what did she um what did she do that was when you say acting suicidal.
[42:58] Well what prompted me to you know quit my previous job and to just focus on, helping her was initially in our old apartment where we lived in six months ago ago, she had, I'd woken up and she had told me that she was holding and looking at a firearm that I owned. And I asked her, you know, why, why were you doing that? Are you, is there, what's going on with that? She's like, I'm thinking about killing myself.
[43:33] And this, sorry, how, how long after the babies were born?
[43:37] This must have been a month, a month and a half after the babies were born.
[43:43] And what was her affect or mood after the babies were born as a whole?
[43:49] The first two, three weeks, they were, though my job had let me take three weeks off for, it was an unpaid paternity leave, but you know, I could get my job. Those three weeks where I was with her she was really happy and we were going we were doing a lot of things together with babies and stuff but as soon as I went back to work at around, Christmastime her affected start started to to wane a little bit okay so I thought.
[44:22] I thought that the idea if I remember this rightly the idea was that if she starts to get really down you'll quit your job and is that Is that what you did?
[44:31] That's what I ended up doing.
[44:32] And how long into that? Like how long after the babies were born did you quit your job?
[44:41] Well, I had only, when I went back to work at around Christmas, I had only worked maybe a week or two, no, about two weeks or so before she ran into the firearm and then I quit as soon as she told me that. So I, no, and I hadn't, I haven't worked, I only recently started working again, but I hadn't worked for like about, since then, for almost half the year.
[45:05] Okay, so like a week or two after you head back to work, she's staring down a gun barrel, right?
[45:11] Right. And then I, yeah, I quit immediately.
[45:14] Okay. And did that help at all?
[45:20] Not really. Because, you know, the next thing we did was, you know, we, because her parents knew where we were living and they were showing up unannounced and which was making things worse. So I moved us out of there to somewhere more rural and more appealing and got her in with a therapist and all of this. And actually, and you had pointed this out too, like oftentimes when you start therapy, things actually get really, get actually worse before they start to get better. Well, it's like physio.
[45:55] Right? I mean, it hurts and then it heals, right?
[45:58] Well, as before, she was brandishing a firearm, you know, back where we lived, like during the time. when she had began therapy and it was just kind of me and her and the babies in a you know cabin she started to i mean one time she you know she had you know she had gone on a run, and she had been gone for quite some time so i get in the car you know just to see where she had been she's like you know she's walking back and she's like looking down and, I asked her you know if everything's okay and she just doesn't answer me, I'll ask him like what's going on and she shows me um like a burn mark around her neck where I guess she had found an abandoned shack somewhere around there and had tried to hang herself well the story is initially was that she tried to hang herself but then when me and her you know talked about it more. She had said that she had only just put the rope on her neck because she had thought about it, but had actually didn't actually kick the flooring out from underneath her to hang herself. She was just showing me.
[47:15] Sorry, how old were the babies at this point?
[47:21] Three months.
[47:24] And is there any family friend or a relative that you care about or anyone who could take the babies?
[47:33] Yes.
[47:34] And have you talked about that with your wife?
[47:38] I have.
[47:39] And what does she say?
[47:43] We can't, you know, we can't abandon them.
[47:46] Well, that's just a lie. She's talking about killing herself. Wouldn't that be abandoning them? Right. So I don't understand. Right.
[48:00] I don't either.
[48:00] It's no i mean what's what's her reasoning i mean it's not obviously i mean it's too obvious to say that it's profoundly destructive for children to be around a suicidal mother right, yeah so wouldn't she give the babies up for their own good or at least wouldn't that be on the table i don't know if it's the right or wrong thing to do but it wouldn't that at least be on the table, I mean, maybe it's somebody she could visit the babies or something. I mean, is her sleep really badly disrupted? I assume that has something to do with, you know, maybe what might be going on for her mentally.
[48:47] It was during, you know, the early goings, but she's been getting a consistent eight, nine hours of sleep for the last two, three months. The babies actually, they sleep the entire night, both of them.
[48:57] Wow. Six months. Holy crap. All right.
[49:02] They wake up maybe one time at like two in the morning, just because they're a little hungry, but they immediately go back to sleep.
[49:07] Okay. So, why wouldn't she have somebody... I mean, again, I don't know if it's the right or wrong thing to do, but if the babies are contributing to this mental crisis, wouldn't it be better for everyone if she took a break from the babies?
[49:27] If she took a break from the babies? Yeah.
[49:29] Yeah.
[49:34] Well the individual in question would be you know my younger brother back in my home state.
[49:40] Well i forget about where they land i've just is it on the table like is it even a possibility.
[49:46] Sure it would be.
[49:48] And is it for her no okay so that's an impossible situation, and it seems a little selfish to me if the babies are giving you a mental health crisis that's very bad for the babies to be around and could result in genuine catastrophe, I mean wouldn't you I mean isn't that kind of clinging on to the babies while you drown rather than handing them to safety.
[50:39] Yeah, I mean.
[50:44] When did she last, when was the rope thing?
[50:51] This must have been early, maybe mid-February or so.
[50:59] Okay. And did we talk about this last time?
[51:01] We did.
[51:02] Okay. And I can't recall what conclusion we came to, or not conclusion, but what approach we talked about.
[51:09] I think it was mostly just kind of lean back to like, why did you pick this person to begin with after listening to my stuff? It's kind of the approach.
[51:23] Okay. I mean, do you think she is in significant danger of killing herself? or is it somewhat you know women will sometimes a little bit more than men will threaten more than execute.
[51:37] Her therapist seems to think that that's all kind of pastor, he's a very very good therapist and you know he believes that it's his professional opinion that she's passed that but now she's just lamenting non-stop which in many ways is, destructive for different reasons but she's you know she hasn't done anything extreme or said anything extreme or anything now it's just regret endless regret like that phase well in like three months or.
[52:08] Whatever right three months four months and.
[52:12] Like lately she'll even say like i was never gonna do that i just you know it's almost like that stereotype like attention seeking and has.
[52:22] She apologized for terrifying you in this way.
[52:28] She has, but it immediately, there's no time spent on it. It's just like, I'm sorry I did that. I can't believe that this hurt me. It's not like, it doesn't seem very genuine.
[52:38] She can't believe that this hurt you. I'm sorry, I don't quite understand.
[52:43] Like she'll say like, you know, I'm sorry I did that, but not like, I can't imagine what that must have been like.
[52:50] Tell me how you felt and, you know, what has this done to you and, right.
[52:54] No, it's just a bullshit. I don't apologize.
[52:56] Okay. And have you thought of separation?
[53:02] I have.
[53:04] And what are your thoughts on that?
[53:07] My thoughts are as a single father with two little girls. it's probably a really difficult situation to navigate.
[53:28] Oh, it would be difficult for sure. I mean, you could end up getting remarried, and right, there are people who marry into, you know, there are women who can't have kids who would love to help raise some twins or babies or a baby. So, I mean, that's, you know, you could get remarried at some point.
[53:47] And I guess like, you know, just thinking about the remarriage thing and like in the interim, how would I, I think I figured, I'll just say this, I kind of figure I know what you'll say though. It's like, obviously I'm against daycare and stuff like that, but like, I don't know what options I have. Wait, didn't you have a brother?
[54:04] You have a brother, don't you?
[54:06] I do.
[54:07] I'm sorry. Wasn't that the brother who might take the babies?
[54:10] He would absolutely help me with that. I would probably have to move.
[54:14] So that would be a solution, right?
[54:16] That would be a solution, yes.
[54:18] Okay. And what percentage of you is leaning towards that, or what percentage of that is in your option list?
[54:32] It seems split 50-50, because the therapist that she's working with, who I'm also working with, is really confident that he can help improve the situation so it doesn't get to that point.
[54:50] And how long have you been seeing this therapist?
[54:53] How long has she?
[54:55] No, you. Sorry, it wasn't a couple's or is she just seeing the therapist alone?
[54:59] She's seeing him alone and we're doing couples with him and he was my original therapist from a couple of years ago.
[55:06] Okay, so how long have you as a family been seeing this therapist?
[55:12] Well, as a group, only for the last four weeks, like doing group sessions.
[55:16] And how long has she been seeing him?
[55:22] She originally saw him about two years ago for about a year on and off.
[55:31] So hang on. So she saw this very confident therapist for a year and she ended up suicidal after having babies. Right. He seems very confident. I mean wouldn't if he was so amazing wouldn't he have seen this coming, and worked to help her ameliorate that issue I mean I don't know I'm not a therapist but he seems very confident for somebody who has already treated the patient and she was suicidal, Is that why you're calling me? Do you have doubts about his confidence?
[56:18] I suppose I do.
[56:20] Well, I don't know. I'm not trying to put thoughts in your head. That's a pretty bold level of confidence, in my view, for someone who's, I mean, if he was new to the situation, maybe, but he's already treated her for a year in the past, right?
[56:37] Yeah. Let's say, just for career, let's say about six months. It doesn't change much about this.
[56:45] It really doesn't change much. I mean, did she stop going with her own accord or did he say she was done?
[56:52] She stopped going with her own accord.
[56:54] And why did she say she felt she was done?
[56:57] He thought she was done.
[56:58] And did he disagree? You may not know, right, because that's a private thing between her and her therapist, right?
[57:06] I can ask her. I don't know.
[57:11] Did you think she was done?
[57:16] So what I had told her at the time is she had said, like, I have so much material to work with. I'm going to take a break. It's really overwhelming. I'm going to need some time to just kind of work through some stuff before reentering.
[57:31] Because it was overwhelming. Yeah. Okay. That's not a great sign, right? I'm not going to see my therapist because too much stuff is being uncovered. And it's like, isn't that kind of why you need to see a therapist?
[57:50] That's the exact reason why.
[57:51] I think so. Okay. So, how can I help you? can't undo the marriage can't undo the babies I can't tell you whether you should or shouldn't get a divorce I don't know I'm glad that you're both in therapy, so what can I do to help you I mean I'm happy to be a sounding board if that helps and you just want to get things off your chest I'm happy to listen, but I you know the helplessness and the sadness is kind of radiating off you right I mean, this is obviously not how you want it to be a father, and this is a god-awful mess.
[58:41] You said the helplessness is radiating off me.
[58:43] Oh, yeah. Yeah, for sure. Your voice is just empty of life and hope and all things. Shiny.
[58:53] Yeah. It feels that way. To be honest, Stef, I guess I don't know.
[59:11] But you wanted to talk, and what was your impulse? I mean, I'm happy to respond to your impulse. I mean, I never want to deny whoever I can accommodate who reaches out, so what was the impulse?
[59:28] The impulse was, I suppose, the helplessness and the despair had gotten to the point where I just was like, I wonder if there has to be something I'm missing. There has to be something I'm not seeing.
[59:41] Well, the helplessness, of course, comes from feeling like you're doing everything perfectly. Because if you're doing everything perfectly, and it's not working, despair is the natural result. Does that make sense?
[59:52] It makes perfect sense, yeah.
[59:53] Okay, so when you tell me at the beginning of the call, well, I'm doing everything just right, and we went over that a couple of times, then I understand why you feel helpless. Because if you feel like you're doing everything just right, then she's just crazy and bad or whatever we'd say, and that's it, right?
[1:00:11] Right.
[1:00:14] I mean, you're not helpless, right?
[1:00:17] No, of course I have options.
[1:00:19] Yeah, I mean, you can separate. You could try to convince her to let your brother take care of the babies for, obviously never see them or anything, but, you know, give her a break from the motherhood that is obviously, I mean, it seems to me it's kind of triggering her. And you can also emotionally detach from the marriage, which might be a good self-protective armadillo move at the moment.
[1:00:48] Can you say that last part again? You broke up.
[1:00:50] Oh, yeah. Emotionally detach from the marriage. I mean, not permanently, but for a while.
[1:00:58] What do you mean by this?
[1:00:59] Well, she's pushing buttons and you're responding like it has something to do with you. Right? You take it personally, right?
[1:01:12] I do.
[1:01:12] Okay. It's not personal because it's triggered by the babies. It's about her own infancy, I would assume, right?
[1:01:20] Yeah.
[1:01:21] And this is the great lie of forgiveness. Forgiveness is just this tiny band-aid you put over a giant wound and pretend that you're healed, right? so she was wrong about all the forgiveness stuff and her body knows she's wrong and it's rebelling against all of that saying we were so cruelly violated and you wallpapered it over with forgiveness but the fire still rages and the acid still burns.
[1:01:49] Wow.
[1:01:52] Well, I hate this forgiveness stuff with a burning, burning Old Testament passion. I do. It's self-congratulatory. It's shallow. It's pointless. It's often a holier-than-thou superior. Well, I forgive, and I don't know why you have such a tough time forgiving. You have to forgive to let go and move on, and, you know, it only hurts you. It's like all of this pompous windbaggery, and it's like, okay, well, let's see what happens when you hit a crisis. Let's see what happens to all of this. amazing self-knowledge and forgiveness and depth. I mean, she couldn't even hold up forgiveness when you annoyed her by asking her about her forgiveness. It's all such shallow nonsense, and it's a drug that's just handed out so people don't deal with shit and then the babies pay. God, I hate it.
[1:02:38] It's fucking virulent.
[1:02:40] Oh, it is. It's a brain virus. And the forgiveness shit is all planted by evil people, so that you You don't feel how much evil they did to you so that you're rendered helpless and then the next generation pays the price. I hate the forgiveness stuff with like a deep, deep passion. Because every single person I've ever talked to who parades around this forgiveness windbaggery is just the most pompous and wrong person around. And so self-congratulatory and oh, I'm so wise. And I'm not talking about your wife here, just people I've met. Like, oh, I'm so wise, and I'm so mature, and I can't believe you haven't forgiven people. Forgiveness is wonderful. You just, you're released, and you move. It's like, oh my God, it's just such lies.
[1:03:27] I've had the stomach through.
[1:03:30] Oh, yeah, no, I'm sure you have. And it's like, okay, where's all your wisdom now? Right? You've got a gun in your hand, a rope around your neck. Where's all this wisdom now? Where's all of this growth? Where's all the, oh, I'm so forgiven? No, it just, it has people not deal with stuff. it's fake. It's a pill for a toothache. It just makes the ache and the rot worse. So, yeah, it is. And she knew all of that deep down. Her father didn't want you to poke around whether she had actually forgiven him. And so the father lashed out at you and took her hostage and now has taken two more kids hostage.
[1:04:13] Yeah, that's accurate.
[1:04:19] So, this is not personal. You know, I bought a Roomba once. I know this sounds like a bit of a whiplash. So I bought a Roomba once, because I thought it was cool, right? Robot, sweep things up, neat. I mean, I love toys, right? So I got the Roomba, I put it down, and within about three minutes it had found a pair of headphones and sucked them into its guts. Nice headphones, too. I guess they were somewhere down on the ground or whatever, right? Now, that was annoying, right?
[1:04:56] Right.
[1:04:59] Because I've got to untangle the headphones, which takes forever, they're probably broken, and then I'm not sure if I want to use the Roomba again. Like, you know, it's just from yay to... Right? Within three minutes, right?
[1:05:11] Mm-hmm.
[1:05:13] Now, did I take it personally? Was the Roomba just trying to annoy me? Was the Roomba just, ah-ha, I'm going to get him. Oh, I bet you he likes these headphones. Slurp, slurp, right?
[1:05:24] Right, absolutely not.
[1:05:25] No. It was just a bit of bad luck, a minor annoyance, nothing major. Is this not personal to you? It's just an old wound erupting. You know, sometimes, have you ever gone on vacation and, you know, you have a late night and you're at some resort, right? And they're doing some leaf blowing or some lawn mowing or something like that. You know, not crack of dawn, but, you know, like eight in the morning and you want to sleep till ten, right?
[1:06:05] Yeah, I've had that.
[1:06:06] Yeah, I think most people have had that. It's not personal. They're not like, aha, I bet you he's having a good night's sleep. I'm going to rev this, right? It's not personal.
[1:06:14] Yeah.
[1:06:16] So she's just making annoying noises. It's not personal. She's going through a crisis. She's making noises, and you're taking them personally. This is like somebody going through epilepsy. epilepsy, they elbow you in the chest and you spring up ready to box because they violated the NAP, right? That's not the case. She's having a crisis.
[1:06:42] I mean, she didn't see it coming, right? You didn't see it coming. Her therapist of six months, who is such an expert, he's got this in the bag, man. He's got it sorted, right? Her therapist didn't see it coming, right?
[1:07:00] No.
[1:07:00] So she got sideswiped by a giant iceberg of unknown history. And you're taking it personally. It's got nothing to do with you. You're engaging with this, and you're emotionally invested in this, like you're involved. Like if she was holding a picture of herself as a baby and weeping bitterly, would you take it personally? Hey man, that reflects badly on me. I can't believe you're insulting me.
[1:07:37] Of course not.
[1:07:38] Because it'd be kind of selfish, be a little narcissistic, to make that about you, right?
[1:07:43] It would be.
[1:07:44] So this isn't about you. This is about her, her fucked up family, and her babyhood. You were a quarter century in the future. Right? I mean, you were a baby too, give or take, right? So she's having this kind of crisis or this meltdown or whatever, and you're taking it personally. You're emotionally engaging as if it's to do with you. because you're panicking and you want to control her panic. You want to control her crisis because it's making you feel terrified, which I understand. I don't, nothing. I mean, that's perfectly natural feeling. So you're trying to control her crisis and the best way you can do that is to take it personally because if it's about you, then maybe you can affect it somehow. You can fix it. You can solve it. You can change something. You can do something, right? Right?
[1:08:42] Wow. Always, yeah.
[1:08:44] Which I'm sure is a habit you picked up from having to manage your own parents' emotions because they were volatile. Like, this is all stuff we know, right?
[1:08:53] Right.
[1:08:54] Right. So it's not personal. That's what I mean. Emotionally detached from the marriage because there's no marriage right now. She's an infant. She's re-experiencing infancy. She's not your wife. She's a baby. And I know that sounds derogatory. I don't mean it that way.
[1:09:10] No, Stef, I thought, I'm in chills because I thought of that within the last week. Not nearly as precise as you were, but like my wife, an infant right now, and not my wife. It's just interesting hearing you say that.
[1:09:25] Yeah. I mean, babies cry. It's not personal. They're not trying to annoy you. They're trying to help you.
[1:09:32] Right?
[1:09:33] You want your baby to cry. Otherwise, they die.
[1:09:35] Of course.
[1:09:36] So she is re-experiencing catastrophic neglect and abuse because of her babies. She's got a skilled therapist who's confident, you know. The fact that I don't hugely share his confidence is completely meaningless, because I'm not competent to judge his competence, because I'm not a therapist, right? That'd be like me judging an oncologist's confidence, like, I don't know. I'm just, that's my gut, but that doesn't mean anything, because I'm not an expert. That's just Dunning-Kruger all over the place, right? So that means nothing, just absolutely nothing. I just want to be clear about that, because, you know, I haven't treated her. I'm not a therapist, so I don't know.
[1:10:16] um i can't judge that i'm just telling you seems like a lot of confidence to me but again what do i know so but yeah it's not i'm emotionally detached from the marriage because you you're thinking this is a marriage right now but it's not you got a toddler and.
[1:10:33] You know what stuff you know just to lean in yeah i've been because needless to say like not there hasn't been any like there's been minimal if any like cooking or cleaning or any of that stuff so i work and i'm I'm also doing these things too. And I am taking that very personally.
[1:10:49] You have three babies.
[1:10:52] Yeah.
[1:10:53] I'm sorry about that. I really am. I'm sorry about that. But you're not a victim. You knew she had a fucked up childhood when you gave her babies. And listen, I hope she's super pretty, man. I really do. I hope that's worth it. And I'm not, I know, and that sounds snarky. I don't, right? Being pretty is nice. A pretty girl, a pretty woman is nice. but you walked right into this, right? I mean, she didn't hide that she had a completely screwed up childhood, right?
[1:11:27] No.
[1:11:29] So it's worth it for you. And listen, I'm not saying she's only pretty. You say you have great conversations, deep conversations. She's into philosophy. God love her. I think that's great, right? So maybe she's just right in the long run, right? Right? And so don't, but you can't feel like a victim. I mean, I understand it's easier to do that, but that's your childhood, right? So you can't say to her, you need to overcome your childhood when you feel trapped and helpless like a victim like you were a child, but you didn't. You chose all of this. You didn't choose your parents. You sure as hell chose her, though, right?
[1:12:05] That's correct.
[1:12:05] And you chose her with knowledge. And you also chose her knowing that I was one phone call away, right? And you chose not to make that phone call, and I'm not blaming you for that. Maybe this is the right thing for you in the long run. but you knew that her bad childhood was going to pop up, to put it mildly, from time to time. And it has, right?
[1:12:34] It has.
[1:12:34] Okay. And she's, to her credit, she's taken some, you know, responsible work in going to therapy and dealing with stuff and working on stuff and all kinds of good stuff, right?
[1:12:47] Yeah, taking distance from her parents.
[1:12:50] Yeah.
[1:12:51] Even like a lover friend.
[1:12:52] So this was a surprise to her therapist. It was a surprise to you. It was a surprise... To everyone. Unguessed, right? And that's the problem with infancy, is you don't remember it. So it just shows up in the body, right? If this is what's happening, I would guess that it is. I mean, nobody knows for sure. Maybe figure it out in time, but...
[1:13:17] I really feel like that's what it is. I thought it was...
[1:13:21] Okay, so she's got some real pluses. Yeah, she's got some real pluses, and I'm sorry that I was just saying... I don't mean to indicate only pretty, right? I mean, you talked about some other good qualities that she has, but it was the prettiness that kept you going. So she's got some very positive qualities, and the childhood thing is hitting real hard at the moment. And you're taking it personally. She's just crying over her infancy, and you're making it about you. I mean, I'm not saying that's all you're doing, and I know you're resisting it and all of that, so I don't want to minimize that, but that's a lot of it, isn't it?
[1:13:56] It is a lot of it, that's right. And, you know, try to minimize it. But, you know, oftentimes, you know, I do take it personally, as you pointed out.
[1:14:04] Yes, and I understand that too. You're a young man and it's a hard load to bear and it is not what you want when you have new babies, but you have the babies, they're not going, there's no Amazon package to send them back, right? But yeah, I mean, to emotionally detach is, to know when to emotionally detach is absolutely essential in life. I mean, do you think I'm reading my Wikipedia page every day going, oh my God, I've got to fix all of this, I'm tortured, right? To know when to emotionally detach in life is absolutely essential. It's an absolutely essential survival skill. Now, we always think, oh, but I'm dissociating and I'm suppressing. And yes, yes, absolutely. you should.
[1:14:52] There's a reason we can do that.
[1:14:53] Yeah, it's essential. I mean, you know, the dog thing is like, show no fear. It's like, yeah, we know how to do the opposite of our emotions.
[1:15:03] Can't treat these things like they're just bad. It's okay.
[1:15:06] Yeah, yeah, I'm never going to do that. It's like, of course you're going to do that. Wow.
[1:15:12] Yeah.
[1:15:16] I mean, do you don't think I faked a bit of bravado sometimes Sometimes when I'm going up for a speech and there have been bomb threats and death threats, yeah, it's a little bit of bravado there. Hope I don't die, right? So that's natural. That's healthy. So knowing when to emotionally detach, which is really emotional self-control, which is not rejecting your emotions, but not accepting them as real. You know, it's kind of like you have a nightmare. Like, I know you haven't dreamed much lately, but it'll come back, right? So you have a nightmare. And you're terrified, and then you wake up, and you realize it's not real, and your emotions fade away, because you now realize, oh, it's not real. So that's it. You've got to wake up from this nightmare. And that doesn't mean leaving the marriage or anything. I don't know what that means. But it does mean, in terms of practical things, but you need to wake up from the nightmare and recognize that the emotions she's thrown around are not personal to you. It's not real. It's not directed at you. You're not part of the equation. It's, she's going through, Everything she's doing is driving people away. Is that fair to say?
[1:16:40] It is definitely fair to say.
[1:16:42] Yeah. So the reason that she's been landmined to drive everyone away is so that her parents can continue to abuse her. At least that's what, when she was a kid, right? She would have been programmed by her parents to drive everyone away so that her parents could continue to abuse her and she would never tell. So right now, what's she doing? She's driving everyone away because she's re-experiencing early childhood trauma. you gotta rise above that man I know it's tough I know it's tough, but this has to be like it's one thing to be in a world war one battle it's another thing to read about it a hundred years later and this is to be like with the emotional distance of I'm reading about this a hundred years later, stop taking it personally because that's why you end up shoving each other because you think it's about you or Or, as I said before, you are managing your own fear of her breakdown by trying to control her, which inflames her aggression because she's frustrated that you're making it all about you. She's crying over a picture of her as a baby, and you're being really offended by that and saying, oh, you just don't care about me then?
[1:17:54] And she's like, no, it's not about you. That's the frustration, right? Mm-hmm.
[1:18:05] That all makes perfect sense. It all completely lines up, even with, like, the pushing people away thing.
[1:18:13] Yeah, don't fall for that. Don't fall for her father and her mother and whoever harmed her as a baby, the uncle. Right? Don't fall for all of that pushing away stuff. I mean, you can't fake it and say, you know, like, I love you when she's snarling at you. I mean, that would be kind of weird, right? But, you know, just, yeah, tell me more. Yeah, uh-huh. Yeah, interesting. Yeah, tell me more. Yeah. Oh, yeah, no, that would be tough. Yeah, I'm happy to hear more. But you don't take it personally. Oh, you just, you never stop me from doing bad things. Wow, that must be really frustrating. Yeah, tell me more about that. Well, now you're just doing this. It's like, yeah, yeah, no, I get it. I'm here for you. Tell me more. It's not personal.
[1:18:59] Wow. at that point is when i you know because i'll do the tell me more thing but i i don't see it through i i i do lose patience after maybe an hour so i guess i can.
[1:19:14] Okay so then you say then you say uh sorry i'm i'm at a point like i'm not able to listen so i'm just i'm gonna go for a walk i'm gonna go listen to some music you know i'm i'm sorry to be rude but you know i i've been listening, and at this point, it's really becoming quite frustrating and annoying, so care about you, love you, but I'm going to have to take a break. Now, she may follow you, or whatever it is, and you know, she may be really kind of clingy and codependent, or whatever's going on, and just have to find a way to get your space. It's still not personal. Because if you're terrified of her mental issues, she's really going to spiral.
[1:20:11] Yeah, I can see. Can you explain why? Because then she can't feel secure or safe.
[1:20:22] Well it's kind of like if you go to the dermatologist and you say can you have a look at my back and he says holy shit what the hell is that right you're going to freak out right yeah.
[1:20:36] You're like what the hell is in my back yeah.
[1:20:38] If it's just like oh okay that's interesting you know looks a little odd let's just take a little biopsy here I'm sure it's fine you know you just want him to not freak out right correct right, you know those medics in war right hey man you're fine you can get your patch right up.
[1:21:01] Yeah that was.
[1:21:02] Where's your leg you know whatever i mean i'm saying that's that bad but you know right no freaking out right of.
[1:21:09] Course not yeah definitely not going to help the situation by any by any stretch.
[1:21:20] I mean, if her father was murderous, as you say, or homicidal. Then the suicidal stuff is just her father saying, yep, I can still wipe her out any time. And if this is kind of like, I'm not saying it is all a strategy, but if it's a kind of strategy, then the more you react, the more the strategies will replicate. and you're just going to have to, you know, just grit your teeth and, yeah, tell me more. Okay, yeah. Oh, yeah, that's tough. I understand. Yeah, I get you're really mad at me. Tell me more, right? And you just don't respond as if it's real.
[1:22:09] That's the emotional detachment that you're describing.
[1:22:11] Absolutely. Absolutely essential.
[1:22:17] I like that.
[1:22:19] I mean, we all have to know how to do that, right? I mean, I remember crossing from, oh, Mexico to Guatemala or something like that, and my visa had expired, and, you know, you hear all these nightmares about, like, Central American prisons or whatever it is, and you, like, just got to brazen your way through, man. Show no fear. You know, you ask some girl if your dream's out, and she says no, No, you don't just curl into a ball, right? Hey, no problem. I appreciate that. And off you go. And, you know, maybe you bite your thumb later, but, right? You're desperate for a job. You don't show that desperation. You don't grab the guy's lapels and say, man, give me this job. I got to eat, right?
[1:23:04] Right.
[1:23:05] You suppress that shit.
[1:23:09] We do it all the time. We do it every day.
[1:23:11] We do it all the time. Yeah.
[1:23:12] Yeah. Here I am, here not doing.
[1:23:17] Well, of course, listen, I mean, I hope you forgive yourself for that, right? I mean, you had an emotionally reactive family of your own. You're a young man. It's a highly stressful situation. You've got a pretty unstable new mom on your hands. Like, cut yourself some slack. This is some serious black belt emotional ninja shit, right?
[1:23:36] Get to navigate this. We need to get a Jedi master, isn't it, son?
[1:23:39] Yeah, this is like, you know, this is some serious emotional self-control. all but and but it's not like the reason i say detach emotionally is because it's not about you, right right so so your emotions are reacting as if it's about you and i'm not saying oh your emotions are you're bad and you've got to suppress them it's like but it's not about you.
[1:24:02] And you know what Stef and you're saying that it makes me realize that in these moments where i I try to control it and make it about me, she'll only want to make it more about her. And in these moments in her head, I'll betray these little thoughts that she's being a narcissist. But clearly, I'm the one who's...
[1:24:20] Well, I mean, narcissist is a pretty technical term, I guess. And we all fall into this. She's trying to make it about you so she doesn't have to deal with it. Because if she can fight with you, she can avoid what's going on inside her. And so she's trying to provoke you so that you'll react. And then she can fight with you rather than deal with what's bubbling up inside.
[1:24:38] Right and then i own it.
[1:24:39] Yeah and then it becomes about something other than, what's going on inside right which is she's realizing how bad her childhood was deep down right it's a full body revolt against the lies of forgiveness right.
[1:24:56] Yeah she's having such a bad bad time in it because she'll even say things like, my childhood couldn't have been that bad and she'll say things like that.
[1:25:06] Well it's also It's also a crisis of faith. You know, it's really, really tough to maintain a belief in a loving God when you finally get how fucking bad your childhood was.
[1:25:23] She hates church.
[1:25:24] It's existential. Well, but it's not a church thing. That's an existential God thing. like once I got how bad my childhood was I'm like yeah sorry God it's not a thing I can't I can't like I can't go there you're either powerless or sadistic and either way I can't worship you yeah exactly, Oh, but I gave human beings free will and they just chose wrong. It's like, no, human beings seem to really enjoy hurting their children because it's a universal phenomenon. They really seem to get off on hurting their kids. They seem to like it a lot because just about everybody does it. So if you wired us up to hate our children or to dislike our children or to enjoy hurting our children or to prefer hurting our children, sorry, if that's the way you're wired, you know, if you program a robot to seek out and hurt children, don't tell me about the robot and the programmer has nothing to do with it correct, so yeah she sounds like she was just raised by some pretty horrible sadistic people which is a lot of people in the world and it's a battle for her soul in a way right her children are trying to draw her to the future and, her family is trying to draw her to the past and.
[1:26:49] You have to be accurate in your emotions you didn't do something wrong you didn't offend her you didn't upset her she's like oh i can't believe i called my mother yeah i know but you did right i mean so, yeah that's that's tough it's tough i mean oh i betrayed you i i let you down it's like actually you're you know if you want to be technical you're letting me down more by continuing to obsess about it in a way than if like actually doing it right like that that's more harmful like the fact that you called your mother months ago is mostly in the past but the fact that you keep talking about it now is tougher for me in the present so if you do want to do something that helps me if we could drop that as a topic I'd really appreciate it it's not essential but I'm happy to talk about it but it's not you know it doesn't make sense to say I feel bad, for hurting you when I called my mother when it's actually you continuing to talk about calling your mother that hurts me more if you care about not hurting me then stop talking about it, But it's, yeah, I mean, it's not about, you know, you're pushing your toddler, man. Your toddler pushes, like, you know, your babies get bigger, they're going to aggress, they might hit you, they might, you know, whatever, right? They're going to experiment with aggression, they're going to experiment with lying. So your toddler pushes you, do you push her back?
[1:28:13] Are you saying that because they're seeing aggression now, or are they...
[1:28:16] No, no, it's all children. All children will experiment with aggression and lying. All children. It's wired into us. so your toddlers your babies are going to experiment with aggression and lying, so your toddler's going to push you might hit you might bite you are you going to bite your toddler back of course well why are you doing it with your wife she's a toddler away at the moment yeah.
[1:28:44] I you know oftentimes i i try to i i'm not seeing her that way i'm still trying to see her as my wife.
[1:28:49] And of course that makes total sense i mean and you're not crazy she is your wife obviously we're just talking in an analogy here but mentally right we all go through sometimes we feel younger sometimes we feel older right so, um yes she is your wife obviously but you know she seems like she's going through a regression crisis at the moment and uh you it's as long before yeah so what she's dealing with was around decades before you even showed up. So you can't make it about you because you weren't even there.
[1:29:20] Right.
[1:29:27] And maybe that's the piece that you felt was missing.
[1:29:30] That is the piece that I felt was missing.
[1:29:32] Oh, good. Well, I'm glad we stumbled over it then. I'm glad for that.
[1:29:36] Me too, Stefan. Thank you.
[1:29:39] You're absolutely welcome. And I'm really, really, you know, you have my massive, massive and deep sympathies for this situation. It's tough. You know, parenthood, it doesn't usually shake out quite the way that we anticipate. And some of it's better and some of it's worse. And you're going through a very tough patch. And I wish I could give you a big hug, brother, because it's really, it's really tough. I mean, obviously, you'll get through it and your kids will be fine. And, you know, you've got a skilled therapist on who's working. And, you know, again, take his confidence as meaning a thousand times more than any skepticism I have. And you're doing all the right things. And that's the best thing you can do to have things work out.
[1:30:15] And just a little more emotional detachment.
[1:30:18] A lot more. A lot more. Because a little more emotional detachment is like, okay, instead of making it 80% about me, I'll make it 60% about me. It's like, no, it's not at all.
[1:30:30] Zero percent.
[1:30:32] Yeah. Will you keep me posted about how it's going?
[1:30:35] Absolutely, Stefan. Thank you once again.
[1:30:37] You're very welcome, brother. Take care and keep in touch, all right?
[1:30:39] I will. Bye now.
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