0:00 - Anarcho-Capitalism and Marriage
8:05 - Parenting and Relationships
10:10 - The Menendez Brothers Case
50:16 - Childhood Trauma and Abuse
53:31 - Family Dynamics and Violence
1:04:41 - Confrontation and Escalation
1:14:30 - The Final Days
1:29:02 - The Complexity of Justice
1:38:54 - Conclusion and Reflection
This episode delves deep into the chilling true crime case of the Menendez brothers, Lyle and Eric, who were charged with murdering their wealthy parents, Jose and Kitty Menendez. I unpack not only the harrowing details of the case itself but also the intricate philosophical and psychological implications behind their actions. We explore the complexities surrounding the concepts of freedom, contracts, and relationships through the lens of anarcho-capitalist principles, chiefly whether a formal marriage contract contradicts the ideals of personal autonomy and free association.
As we move along, I address the multifaceted dynamics of familial power and control, noting how the Menendez brothers were allegedly subjected to severe abuse at the hands of their father. This not only incorporates emotional and psychological factors but also raises questions regarding the perceptions of male victims and societal reactions to their trauma. Stepping through the timeline, I share the events leading up to the tragic murders, examining the brothers' confessions and the arguments presented in their defense.
The narrative unfolds around the parents' purported abusive behaviors — both physical and sexual — that the brothers claim led them to commit murder as a desperate act of self-defense. I present evidence from therapy sessions, journals, and testimonies from friends, examining how the legal system sometimes marginalizes cases involving male victims of abuse. Woven throughout this discussion is the acknowledgment of the deep-seated societal beliefs that contribute to minimizing these experiences, often rendering male victims subject to mockery rather than receiving empathy or support.
The episode also highlights the systemic failures of protective services and the societal stigma surrounding reporting familial abuse. I scrutinize the societal norms and media portrayals from their trials which often reduced the brothers to mere caricatures, undermining the complexity of their experiences and the legitimacy of their claims. I discuss how societal narratives often fail to acknowledge the severe psychological ramifications of long-term abuse, leaving many victims feeling unheard and unsupported.
We also reflect upon the broader implications of the Menendez case in terms of children's rights and the importance of fostering safe environments for discussing family abuse. The episode closes by reinforcing the notion that the consequences of familial abuse ripple throughout society, affecting not only the immediate victims but also shaping societal attitudes toward future generations.
Join me in this intricate exploration where we seek not only to understand the Menendez brothers' troubled past but also to shine a light on the darker corners of human relationships and the vital need for deeper societal empathy and change regarding the experiences of abuse victims.
[0:00] Good evening, everybody, Sivan Molyneux from Freedomain, 11th of October, 2024. Welcome to Friday Night Live. Tips. Welcome, freedomain.com slash donate to help out the show. And we're probably going to touch on, or more than touch on, the story of the Menendez brothers tonight, because apparently it's time for true philosophical crime. And this will absolutely blow your mind. So let's start with the questions and then we'll get to the crime stuff in a bit. Stefan says Marco, considering that anarcho-capitalists value personal freedom and independence, what do you think is the rationale behind entering into a formal marriage contract between two individuals who identify as free and self-sufficient? Wouldn't simply choosing to be together indefinitely without the legal contract align more with anarcho-capitalist principles?
[1:04] I'm a little confused, and I'm sorry if I'm being dense. Do you feel that a contract is somehow against anarcho-capitalism? I mean, isn't anarcho-capitalism founded on contracts, contract law, dispute resolution organizations, all the things I talk about in my three books on anarchy, everyday anarchy, practical anarchy, and my novel, The Future, where these things are modeled, discussed, and displayed in dramatic detail? I hope that you will check those out at freedoman.com slash books.
[1:46] A formal marriage contract wouldn't simply choosing to be together indefinitely without the legal contract align more with anarcho-capitalist principles well, i don't find this uh comprehensible at all like let's say that you want to enter into a 20-year mortgage well i mean you should you should just voluntarily choose to pay it there shouldn't be a contract or consequences for not paying it? Come on, man, we don't need all these rules. Well, we kind of do. Because shit happens, people go wrong, they get broke, they made bad decisions, they get addicted to drugs, and you have to have a way of resolving disputes. Can you imagine, you go into business with someone, you both invest your absolute life savings in a business, and you are going to be together as business partners for the rest of your lives you say man we don't need any contracts let's just be in business together but what if you want to quit and go do ayahuasca in the rainforest or go pick grapes in queensland or something like that what if one of you gets injured one of you one of you gets disabled one of one of you gets alzheimer's what if one of you decides to change species or something what are you talking about.
[3:01] I don't understand why, what is wrong with contracts that outline obligations and duties in a relationship that is supposed to last a lifetime. And anybody, I'll tell you this straight up, man, anybody who talks to me about marriage without talking about children is a hedonistic, selfish person. I'm just telling you straight up. Marriage is not for the adults. Oh my God, Why do I need to say this? Why do I need to say this? Marriage is not for the adults. Marriage is for the children. The contract is not between the two adults. The contract is between the adults and the children. Now, I know the children aren't signatories. I know that. But the contract is there to ensure that the children are taken care of. So, I don't know why men, sorry, I just, this is annoying to me, and I'm sorry if I'm being unjust. I don't think I am, but it's always possible. Okay, guys, guys, guys.
[4:15] Men are in love. Women are in business. Men fall in love. Women sign contracts. It's not because women are cold-hearted. It's because women grow and produce children men don't, you don't have a rug rack clinging to your side, for 5 to 20 years, a woman needs security in order to commit to having children, a woman needs security in order to commit to having children because when she gets pregnant her sexual market value collapses and her obligations escalate for the next, 20 years to unimaginable levels a woman can live on 1500 calories a day teenage boys need thousands and thousands of calories. Go talk to mothers of teenage boys. It's like firing a machine gun full of food down a bottomless well. I know, Mom. I know foods. I know dinner's in an hour, but I'm hungry.
[5:41] They are essential black holes of carbs and proteins. So a woman with three teenage boys needs, what, 12,000 to 15,000 calories if they're very active for herself and for her boys. Who's going to produce that? Oh, my God. Come on, guys. What do we need a contract for, man? Let's just hang out. God, please, please, please. Understand women just a tiny bit. I'm begging you. You can't be this blind. You just can't be this blind. Oh, hey, man, we're just, you know, we're just like roommates with sex, you know. We just come and go. Like the tide, like the clouds, like the dragonflies in the breeze.
[6:31] Good Lord. Do you not understand where you came from? Your original home was a woman with near infinite obligations who'd sacrificed her figure and her sexual market value for the sake of having kids. My God, guys, if you don't understand what drives women, the population is going to continue to collapse. The woman needs a commitment at a foundational and ferocious level in order to, commit to having children. If she does not have the commitment, she will not have the children. She will continue to date. She will continue to have fun. But all the players out there with your negging and your game and your black pills on female nature and your manipulations, you are fucking the planet in the future. Hey man, slept with another woman, broke another woman's heart, moved on from another woman, ghosted another woman. Excellent. Now women don't want to have children. And I'm going to be the last man standing in my old age.
[7:51] Thank you, James. You're right. FDRURL.com slash locals. FreeDomain.com slash books.
[8:06] All right, somebody asks, what are the general guidelines when it comes to parental copulation in the presence of children? Is it less impactful to newborn zero to six-month-old compared to a toddler to witness? According to various blogs and studies on the internet, it's not a big deal if a child witnesses this, but I can't help but think it will lead to mental disorders later in the children's maturity. Here's a quote from the study. I'll link it below. Coined the term primal scene which describes the experience of children witnessing their parents engaging in sexual activity freud believed okay freud fucking cocaine drug dealer from hell freud believed the primal scene was traumatic because being exposed to such an event would overstimulate a child to the point at which their psychic barrier that is the psychic inhibition which protects children from being fascinated by sexual practices is oh yeah i don't know um i think we lost it uh yeah don't have sex in front of your kids, i don't even care if they're toddlers yeah don't have sex in front of your kids, uh obviously right i mean but even babies right thank you matt but even babies because babies.
[9:18] For for for children the sounds of sexual pleasure are indistinguishable from the sounds of physical torture. The crying, the screaming, the sighing, the moaning, right? For children.
[9:39] The sounds of sexual pleasure are indistinguishable from the sounds of physical pain. What does a baby know? A baby knows crying. A baby knows the sounds of crying because they hear it when they cry. And so when the baby hears sounds of parental, what sounds like parental distress and torture, it's not fun for the babies, I would imagine. Obviously, we can't interview them, but nonetheless, it seems important, to put it mildly. Thank you, Dorbens. Appreciate the tip.
[10:10] All right, hit me with a Y if you're here for the Menendez. I'm happy to do it, but it's going to be loud and sweary. I'm not even going to try and withhold any of the passions churning like a Florida tsunami in my chest. Hit me with a Y if you want me to do Menendez.
[10:38] Just waiting for y'all to catch up it's not your fault there's a slight delay, yeah if we can't reassure women that we'll be there for them uh they won't have kids, all right you're here for this all right couple of caveats of course i'm not a lawyer this is all nonsense opinion. Not all of this is proved. And even more excitingly, I used some AI. It's the first time I've done this. First time I've done this AI stuff with regards to research. We did some of it for the French Revolution, but then we validated and valid. So there could be a couple of errors here and there, just to be aware. And of course, if you find any errors in what I'm saying, please let me know. And of course, I will be very happy.
[11:40] To correct them. But I've read a book, watched a documentary or two, and a couple of shorts, and, here is the summary. So this is true crime philosophy, philosophical version. So the Menendez case.
[12:04] I remember this from when I was younger, but I just basically heard preppy murders and all of the... And so I watched a documentary on the Menendez case, and halfway through the documentary, I've never had this visceral reaction to a documentary. I felt sick. I felt like throwing up. I felt a choking rage. And I'm not a big one for choking rage, but it was there. And I'm going to explain to you why. Maybe you'll feel the same thing. But it evoked in me passions so primitive that they felt like a force of physics. So, the Menendez case refers to the trials of Lyle and Eric Menendez, who were charged with the murder of their parents. The parents' names are Jose and Kitty Menendez in Beverly Hills, California. So, on August the 20th, 1989, Jose and Kitty Menendez were shot and killed in their home. The brothers initially reported the murders as the work of unknown intruders. They claimed to be at the movies, but the ticket stub, they realized it was not a great, because they had the timestamp on it, the ticket stub was not a great alibi.
[13:18] So, they inherited or stood to inherit. They got, I think, half a million dollars from a life insurance policy, but there was $14 million that their father had. He was very big in the entertainment scene and the music scene. He was head of Hertz. He was the guy who hired, ironically enough, O.J. Simpson to jump through the airport. So, after living lavishly after their parents' death and arousing suspicion, Lyle and Eric were arrested in March of 1990. They confessed to the killings claiming they acted out of fear of being murdered themselves, and claimed years of brutal and violent sexual abuse by their father how did you know that even if you've heard the trial as a whole, now the first trial in 1993 ended in a mistrial due to a hung jury partly because of the defense's argument of diminished capacity due to the psychological trauma from abuse. So the brothers were adults.
[14:24] And I know that people complain about women sometimes and I just want to tell you something. From my understanding, in the first trial it was a hung jury because the poor young men were bawling and crying and hating to talk about the brutal and violent sexual abuse they suffered. One of the brothers just for a couple of years, the other brother for like a decade and a half almost, up to adulthood. And they said.
[15:08] That it can't quite be first-degree murder because of the amount of abuse. This is before big things like the battered wife syndrome. This would be the battered child syndrome or the raped or assault, sexually assaulted child syndrome. So, the reason why they couldn't get to a verdict in the first trial was because, if I remember rightly, the women as a whole wouldn't go with first-degree murder, and the men as a whole wouldn't drop the first-degree murder. First-degree murder, of course, in America in some places, and under some circumstances, comes with the death penalty. If they had got something like manslaughter or something like that, I've heard various estimates, you know, eight years up to 22 years, but not like they've been, they're still in jail, Right. They're in jail because they got convicted in the second trial, which we'll get to in a sec. They got convicted of two sequential right after one after the other. And they're in jail with no hope of parole for the rest of their lives, as far as I understand it.
[16:17] And so I think it was Judge, I think his name was Shapiro. In the second trial, and we'll get into this in more detail, the allegations of sexual abuse were largely kept out or kept away from the jury. And therefore, the jury basically had the choice between first-degree murder and no crime, whereas they were offered more nuanced or layered degrees of murder in the first trial. And they realized, of course, this is why they couldn't come to a conclusion. So they basically said in the second trial, you have to choose between first-degree murder and no crime at all. Now, of course, the crime had occurred. There were confessions. So you couldn't say no crime had occurred So they had to go, as far as I understand it With first degree murder And I consider this monstrous Monstrous.
[17:21] So, Eric Menendez claimed that he was sexually abused By his father, Jose Menendez Starting at age 6 He described incidents where his father would fondle him And force him to perform sexual acts, But Eric also alleged that his father would sometimes wake him in the middle of the night for these abuses. Lyle Menendez also says that he was sexually abused, but for less time. Physical abuse. The brothers recounted numerous incidents where their father used physical violence. Jose Menendez was described as having a violent temper where he would slap, punch, or beat them with objects like belts or hangers. They detailed an instance where Lyle was beaten so severely that he was hospitalized.
[18:10] Emotional and psychological abuse. Both brothers described their father as extremely controlling and demanding, enforcing strict rules and high expectations, often berating them for not measuring up. This included verbal abuse, where they were constantly criticized and belittled. The brothers also claimed that their mother, Kitty Menendez, was aware of the abuse but did nothing to stop it, thus implicating her in the psychological abuse through her inaction. Well, I don't know that she was just passive. During the trial, therapists and friends of the brothers were called to testify. One of Eric's therapists confirmed that Eric had discussed the sexual abuse in therapy sessions. Lyle's friends and former girlfriends also testified about Lyle's fear of his father and his recounting of the physical abuses, The defense heavily relied on these abuse claims to argue that the brothers suffered from battered person syndrome which led them to kill their parents out of fear of further abuse They presented this as a form, of self-defense.
[19:15] So, what was the supporting evidence? Because of course, it's not on camera. There were no rape kits, because they were children. So, what is the supporting evidence? Well, both brothers had been in therapy, and during these sessions, they discussed the alleged abuse. The therapist's notes and testimonies played a crucial role. Eric Menendez kept a journal where he wrote about the abuse, which was presented in court. Dr. Jerome Oziel, their psychologist, testified about the abuse revelations made to him by both brothers. I think this went all the way to the California Supreme Court because of the confidentiality issues. Friends and acquaintances of the Menendez family, including former nanny Emma Guedel, provided some corroborating statements, though none directly witnessed the abuse. Well, of course!
[20:11] Sexual terrorism against a child, Of course, it's not seen. The nanny claimed that she'd seen bruises on Eric and that Kitty had hinted at inappropriate behavior towards his sons. There's the behavioral evidence. One of the boys was bedwetting up into his teens. The defense presented evidence of the brother's behavior that could be interpreted as a response to abuse. One of the boys got involved in crime and was stealing, breaking into houses. There was Eric was bedwetting into his teenage years and so on.
[20:50] Expert psychologists and psychiatrists are called to testify about the effects of childhood abuse and how it could lead to the psychological state that might explain the murders. The brothers recorded conversations with Dr. Ozeal where they discussed the abuse, but they also were committing a crime against him too, so it was complicated. But there are challenges, right? No physical evidence directly proving the sexual abuse was ever presented. Boy, that hasn't seemed to be much of an issue with Trump, right? The brother's credibility was often questioned due to inconsistencies in their stories, their initial lies to cover up the murders, and the sensational nature of their claims. Yes, when you are grilled about details that happened when you were a little child, and then your brother is questioned about those same issues, there will be inconsistencies. That's why we don't usually allow children to testify, particularly at that age.
[21:52] So what was going on in the Menendez family? What were the issues? Well, both Lyle and Eric Menendez have claimed their father was physically and sexually abusive, extremely controlling, high degree of control over his son's lives, including their activities, friends, and even personal decisions, which could be seen as emotionally abusive or stifling, emotional distance, high expectations and pressure, in particular in the realm of sports, the household characterized by a strong emphasis on wealth, status, and material possessions, and, of course, the massive allegations of, sexual abuse.
[22:50] So, Kitty Menendez had some significant dysfunctions as well. According to some reports, she, on more than one occasion wished her children had never been born and or were dead. She herself was raised in a volatile and abusive environment that she wrote about on more than one occasion. Multiple accounts report her as being addicted to pills and alcohol, which is a completely deadly combo. She showed disdain or indifference often towards her sons. There were reports before her death of Kitty becoming suicidal. Some sources suggest Kitty was not just a passive figure, but actively participated in or did not intervene in the physical abuse. Towards her sons, Eric Menendez in particular spoke about her physical violence against her children.
[23:54] So what are the defenses well severe psychological abuse of course from early childhood onwards, the physical sexual and emotional abuse are absolutely staggering and i'm not even going to go into them here if you have a strong stomach you can look these things up yourself but there's almost no evil that could be done against children that was not done against these children, in my particular view and opinion. So they say, battered person syndrome, maybe battered child syndrome, individuals believe that killing the abuser is their only means of survival. This could argue for a defense of self-defense or extreme emotional disturbance, potentially reducing the charge or leading to an acquittal. Well, as people have said, and I think it's probably true to some degree, if the Menendez brothers had been the Menendez sisters, they probably would have walked free. I think there's real, real truth in that. So, given this psychological trauma, the case could be made that the brothers did not have the mental capacity to form the specific intent required for post, for first-degree murder.
[25:00] The case received intense media coverage, biased the jury pool, and influenced the trial's outcome. The sensational nature of the case might have made it impossible for the brothers to receive a fair trial, as public opinion was heavily influenced by media portrayals. Now, let's drop by here. Let's drop by here. Now, let me ask you, this is the part that turned my fucking stomach.
[25:30] Okay, stop nagging people. How did the media portray these victims of 20 odd years of vile child abuse.
[25:49] How do you think the media responded, given the media's deep love and care for male victims of child abuse? How did the media respond as a whole?
[26:14] I mean, they mocked the boys. They said it was for money. a Saturday Night Live. And, you know, actors that I like, like, gosh, what's his name? John Malkovich. John Malkovich, I mean, this is vile, and he's a good actor, but how vile was it for him to mock and lampoon and make jokes in Saturday Night Live about these young men. I mean, it's an uglier level of hell even than, buff bag actor Matt Damon making fun of Judge Kavanaugh.
[27:03] Yeah, the boys were, oh, they're just the preppy murderers and it was absolutely vile. Jay Leno, SNL, endless comedians, lots of people, when there are credible allegations of sexual abuse. Blame the victim, blame the victim, blame the victim. Well, they were, I guess, half Hispanic, half white men, right? The father, Jose, was raised in Cuba and his family fled after the revolution. They were mocked. And in the documentary, there are some clips from comedians making fun of these young men. And I'm like that smoking Jesus, Gabriel, blow the trumpets. Let's just have columns of fire. We just need to reboot. Pillar of salt time. Bring the flood. We just need to reboot. It's so fucking vile. I've never felt, I mean, I've had a lot of revulsion towards the general culture over the years. This just concentrated in one white hot laser-like line straight to the heart of the emptiness and horror of what's going on in fact even when i saw the judge's face i'm like oh he knows something about this you know whether he experienced it it's just my opinion i can't prove anything that was just my gut sense when i saw the judge hearing these stories they cut to the judge's face and oof.
[28:33] Oof and I was like fuck this place fuck this place fuck this hellscape it was black man it was black.
[28:53] So, several experts testified to the severe psychological impact of the abuse on the brothers. If these testimonies were given more weight, it could be argued that their mental states were such that they should not have been held fully accountable under typical criminal law standards. The defense could argue that the brothers were coerced into committing the crime due to their continuous threat of harm. And we'll get into that. If one considers the brothers actions as direct obviously extreme reactions to ongoing abuse this could be framed under a theory of reactive conduct where the response while illegal is not met with the harshest penalties due to the extenuating circumstances, what about now this is the this is the 90s so 30 years ago, and everybody knows if it was women there would be no jokes at all But the disposable males, fuck them, right? All they do is keep the lights on. And the water running. And the hospitals running. And the roads running and the cars running. What the fuck do we do? Nothing. Fuck us, right?
[30:10] And now, finally, and there was an Oprah show where she had male victims of childhood sexual assault. Stand up. Self-defense. Even though the legal definition of self-defense might not perfectly fit their actions due to timing and method, an argument could be made that they felt their lives were in constant danger. This perceived threat might justify their actions under an extreme form of self-defense or defense of others, each other. Right, so it's called imperfect self-defense, where you have reason to believe that your life is in danger, but not imminent danger of grievous bodily harm.
[30:53] And, of course, what else is said? What else is asked? What else is talked about? Well, why didn't they just leave? They were adults. Okay, their father was extremely wealthy, extremely powerful. Extremely wealthy and extremely powerful. And he had been threatening to kill them since they were little children. If you tell, I'll kill. He had been threatening to kill them since they were children. And we'll get to what happened right before the murders in a minute or two. Why didn't they just leave? And go where? It's one thing to leave a guy who's passed out in a trailer park and go to the other side of the country. It's quite another thing to leave a guy with all the money, resources, as evil and power in the world. Where do you go? Trauma bonding. Victims of long-term abuse often develop a psychological bond with their abusers known as trauma bonding. This bond can be as strong or stronger than familial love, making leaving extremely difficult emotionally. How about learned helplessness? Prolonged exposure to abuse can lead to a state where victims feel helpless and believe they are incapable of changing their situation or escaping.
[32:22] The younger boy was desperate to get out, was crossing his fingers, holding his breath, desperate to get out and go to college, and then the dad said, Nope! You're not going anywhere, kid! You're staying here! Well, we get to that. All that led up. Stop-home syndrome, although more commonly associated with hostage situations, elements of the syndrome where victims develop a psychological alliance with their abusers, can apply in cases of severe familial abuse.
[32:49] Well, being in a household with an abusive parent is worse than a hostage situation. It's a child hostage situation with no chance of rescue or escape, or almost no chance of rescue or escape. Fear of retribution, the brothers might have feared that leaving would not stop the abuse, given the control and power their father allegedly wielded. They could have believed that running away would only lead them to being hunted down or that their life would be in even greater danger. Right. At the time of the murders, both brothers were still somewhat financially dependent on their parents. Reporting or leaving due to parental abuse, especially in affluent or seemingly perfectly families, carries a significant social stigma. The fear of not being believed or the shame associated with revealing abuse can prevent victims from seeking help or leaving. So, my friends, my friends if you had abusive parents and I know we have a few people here who have, myself included if you had abusive parents what kind of sympathy did you receive, when you told people.
[34:06] What degree or kind of sympathy did you receive when you told people about the abuse that you suffered? I've been very public about the abuse that I suffered. And how has the world treated me? Oh, that guy suffered a lot of abuse as a kid. I'll tell you what, let's not give him any sympathy. Let's not give him any kudos for trying to help rescue other people. Let's verbally threaten and abuse him from here to eternity. None. None. What have we learned? What have we learned?
[34:52] All right. Since the father made explicit threats about what would happen if they left or told anyone, they could absolutely believe that leaving was not an option. Come on. If a woman is told by her violent, rapey husband, that he will kill her if she tells or tries to leave, would be like, well, why didn't you just leave? And that's a chosen relationship, at least at the beginning. Parents are not. At the time, of course, in the 90s, societal understanding and legal support for victims of child abuse, especially from within the family, were not as developed. the brothers might have felt there was nowhere to turn legally or institutionally that could offer real protection. Well, no shit! No shit. This is what I don't understand about society. I don't understand, like... And I've not seen this point addressed anywhere, and there'll be a bunch of points I'll make here that I've not seen addressed anywhere. Doesn't mean they're not there. Just means I haven't seen them. Goddamn.
[36:05] These boys had seen two-plus decades of immediate family, extended family, church, business associates, school priests, teachers. They moved in some pretty elevated circles and met a whole lot of people. There were hundreds, perhaps thousands of people who'd been exposed to this family. There were dozens of people who knew about the abuse, not the sexual abuse necessarily, but they had seen, and I'll get to this, you had direct family members and others who had either seen vicious child abuse or had been told about the sexual abuse, and no one had done a goddamn thing. Who pulled the trigger? The boys? Yep. Who loaded the gun and gave them the weapons? everybody who ignored all the abuse that came before, that they knew about or had been told about. The accomplice to the murderer is those who ignore the abuse, and I don't want to be an accomplice to murder and crime, which is why I never ignore abuse in this world. I never ignore abuse.
[37:28] I never ignore the abuse. You know, the call-in shows were not supposed to be in any way, shape, or form, and I obviously don't have any issue with the fact that they have become this, but they were not supposed to be anything to do with my bad childhood. They were just, anything you want to talk about philosophically. Anything you want to talk about philosophically, economics, UPB, ethics, virtue, epistemology, metaphysics, politics, anything you want to talk about. And what happened? Well, when I cast that net out, I opened up a portal to pull people from hell itself, which I've been doing at relatively great cost to myself for almost 20 years. I mean, I did it before. I didn't come into this blind. I did it before, but publicly for almost 20 years I've been pulling people, from the boiling vats of hellish history, and anybody who doesn't is an accomplice in crime and a co-abuser anybody who hears of abuse and does not offer sympathy, support and succor, is a co-conspirator and complicity in endless crimes against children.
[38:53] It's how you know the media is largely run by sociopaths, in my opinion.
[39:04] And please remember this in your life. That little portal might open for you. Somebody might, at some point, their voice catches, you catch a whiff of this intergalactic frozen comet heart of darkness that people live on in isolation, in the moat of abuse around them. Dying alone in the dark like Gollum under the root of the mountain. And they pass through us as I pass through the world as you pass through the world if you were abused.
[39:41] We pass through the world in an endless prison of icy silence and if we reach for help we are laughed at. People open their flies and pee in our eyeballs.
[39:57] And that's what the abusers rely on. The abusers rely on the lack of curiosity, silence, and hostility of the general public to the victims of abuse. They know that they are marking us as unclean and unworthy of anything but scorn and rejection, should we dare to tell. They know that all the witnesses will be socially murdered should they speak up and therefore their crimes can, commence endlessly never ending always safe always secure, in my view if these allegations are true one of the fundamental reasons that these boys was sexually assaulted and raped was because the father knew, because he was a big man in society, the father knew, that nobody would listen. If the crimes ever came to light, his children would be mocked and humiliated, ostracized, and would become a laughingstock and a cannon fodder for the vilest kinds of non-comedy on TV, radio, and stage.
[41:20] All who mock the victims are enabling and cheering on the abusers. And this I know better than just about anybody else on the planet. Of course, both Lyle and Eric were still not quite at brain maturity.
[41:46] The brothers were often referred to with derogatory or mocking nicknames in tabloids and by comedians. They were sometimes called the Brat Brothers or the Killer Kids, emphasizing their youth and perceived entitlement. Various comedians in shows like Saturday Night Live have parodied the brothers. Sketches might depict them as overly dramatic or comically evil, focusing on their affluent upbringing and the sensational aspects of the trial. On social media and internet forums, memes about the Menendez brothers often circulate, especially around the time of significant events like parole hearings or documentaries. These memes exaggerate their court appearances, statements, or the bizarre details of their case. The brothers' claims of abuse were sometimes marked for being over-the-top or hard-to-believe, turning their testimonials into punchlines. For instance, their description of their father's behavior was often parodied as being melodramatic or ludicrous. Gee, I wonder why people in charge of the media might want to mock and ridicule the victims of childhood sexual assault. Oh, very strange.
[43:02] Things have changed a little bit, but not too much. What has changed? Well, there's greater public acknowledgement and understanding of the complexities of abuse, including its long-term psychological effects. Hashtag MeToo has helped a little bit with this, including encouraging more victims, including men, to speak out about their experiences. I mean, this happened with Brendan Fraser, who talked about this and paid a hell of a price for it, and then ended up in what I would view as a humiliation role in The Whale. The legal system has evolved in how it handles claims of abuse. For instance, there's now a better framework for considering historical abuse in legal defenses, although it varies by jurisdiction. Right, so if you've talked about it before and you've talked about, what is it we always hear? If someone accuses a non-democrat of sexual assault, what is talked about? Well, you know, did they tell anyone at the time? Well, these guys did. Did anyone else witness abuse? Yes, people did. And we're testifying. Did they ever write it down at the time? Yes, there was a journal. There were recordings, of confessions of this abuse to therapists.
[44:18] No, you see, because for many, many years they just planned to kill their parents and they just sowed all of these seeds and they made sure their father abused them in public and they wrote everything down when they were younger because that's just what they were planning. God damn. Everybody knows now, it's, well, it's not everybody knows. People know more now that trauma can affect memory and behavior. Now, finally, first time in human history, there's a gradual shift towards recognizing the boys and men can be victims of sexual abuse.
[45:02] And yes, they spent, some people say, up to a quarter of a million dollars in the six months after their parents died. Now, well, if you, you know, if you've been in prison for 20 years unjustly, and then you got out and won the lottery, you'd spend some money too.
[45:33] So what defenses can be made and we'll get into the details of what happened, in a few minutes, so the core of their defense was that they killed their parents out of fear of their lives due to years of physical and sexual abuse by their father jose menendez as well as the fact that, no I'll get to that I'll get to that in a sec.
[46:05] So, living under these conditions lead to what psychologists call learned helplessness, extreme fear responses. Murder might feel like they only escape from ongoing trauma. Mental health issues. The brothers' mental health was significantly compromised. Eric's drawings and psychological evaluations provided by experts like Dr. Ann Burgess showed deep-seated trauma, illustrating their psychological state was not one of typical criminal intent, but of individuals acting under profound emotional disturbance. Their close bond could be seen not as an abnormality, but a survival mechanism developed under duress, where each brother was the only confident the other had against their parents' alleged abusive behavior. And of course, at the time in the 90s, legal defenses based on long-term abuse were not as well received or understood as they might be today. The complexity of proving historical abuse in a courtroom setting was daunting, leading to skepticism even when evidence suggested abuse. And, of course, they were good-looking young men, athletic, wealthy. Turns out one of them was wearing a toupee. His mother actually ripped it off his head during an argument where it had actually been glued on and tore half his scalp off.
[47:25] So, of course, the good-looking preppy kids, you get this nerd rage Nietzschean resentment.
[47:37] If they'd looked like nerds, there wouldn't have been the jock rage against them. So there's new evidence, documents, Eric's letter detailing the abuse before the murderers provide a basis for re-evaluating the case with a more sympathetic lens. Such evidence might not have been fully considered or understood during the original trials. Well, in many ways, the defense of decades of sexual abuse, years and years and years of sexual abuse, that evidence was largely excluded from the second trial. And as I said, the jurors, to my understanding, were given the choice between first degree murder and no crime at all. It's what they call a false dichotomy.
[48:35] The brothers also allege that they witnessed their father's abusive behavior towards their mother, Kitty Menendez, which included verbal tirades and physical violence. And of course, as I mentioned, before the murders, Eric wrote a letter detailing the abuse, which included being molested by his father. Both their brothers underwent therapy where they discussed the abuse. Eric's therapist was pivotal in their case, although his testimony was complicated by issues of confidentiality and his own actions post-therapy sessions with a mistress and all kinds of mess.
[49:19] All right, I want to go into more detail about what happened prior, just prior to the murders, but I also do want to get your thoughts. Yeah, Hollywood quarterbacks for Roman Polanski, absolutely true. Absolutely true. See no evil, hear no evil. See no evil, hear no evil, feed all evil. That's what's always missing from all of this, right? It's always missing from all of this. Tim says, I was too young to really understand at the time, but I remember SNL making fun of them. Yeah. Yeah. Fuck John Malkovich. And Mike Myers.
[50:10] Oh, it's absolutely wretched.
[50:16] Absolutely wretched and all the writers but I mean it's Hollywood I'm not surprised they came down, hard on the victims of sexual abuse because lord knows there's none of that going on in the hills damn, it's a portal to hell it really is an absolute portal to hell.
[50:58] So what happened? What happened?
[51:14] So, this is a relative, as young boys, Eric and Lyle were two earthquakes. Our kids were very disciplined, but when Jose's kids arrived, the house trembled and things broke. The two families spent many weekends cooking big meals and watching sports on TV. Lyle would hug his Aunt Terry and tell her he loved being there because she had such a happy family. For Eric and Lyle, it was a rare opportunity for them to play with other kids. Jose Menendez didn't want his sons to have close friends. He told relatives it would be too distracting for his boys. Marta's husband, Peter Cano, bonded with Kitty, this is the mother, who confided to him that she had a drinking problem. Peter had seen her get drunk vulgar and lose control. He thought she didn't particularly care for her children. One morning, he saw five-year-old Lyle, it's the little boy who later murdered his father, five-year-old Lyle race around the living room, unable to sit still. Jose shouted, stop! But Lyle didn't listen. Jose jumped up and grabbed Lyle and then glared into the child's eyes and whispered in his ear. Suddenly pale and trembling, Lyle wet his pants.
[52:38] Then Jose punched him hard in the chest with a closed fist, knocking the wind out of him before rushing him down the hall to his room. Outraged, Peter followed close behind, screaming at his brother-in-law, That's no way to raise a child! If you don't like it, leave! Jose told him, This is my house, and I'll raise my children anyway I see fit! The family immediately packed up their five children. And left. What did the father whisper into the little boy's ear, the five-year-old boy's ear, that had him pale and trembling and suddenly wet his pants? I would imagine a death threat.
[53:32] Then this giant man punches the five-year-old full in the chest with a closed fist, knocking the wind out of him so he couldn't breathe at all.
[53:58] And the other family just leaves the kids to the faint doesn't call protective services doesn't consult with lawyers doesn't call anyone for help they just leave, good luck kid we're out. We're gone. Everybody puts the kids in this situation. Once at a local mall, five-year-old Lyle and two-year-old Eric ran wildly, knocking over store displays, and then disappeared. it. Don't worry, Kitty told this woman. They'll be fine. They know what to do. Moments later, a voice in the public address system said, Mrs. Menendez, come pick up your children at the security office. Oh, great, Kitty told the woman. We know where they are, so we can keep on shopping. Forty-five minutes later, she retrieved her sons, a two-year-old and a five-year-old.
[55:20] Marta couldn't understand why Kitty didn't seem to show much affection for her sons Little things would set her off She would suddenly get very violent and throw things and bang things and scream at the kids She would pick them up at the arm just like Jose used to do and shake them and throw them and send them to their room Frequently she called them idiots, stupid or clumsy after becoming frustrated over seemingly inconsequential things.
[55:46] At the end of the school year, seven-year-old Lyle brought home a rabbit from school. Ooh. You know that's not gonna go well. You got a fucking psycho in the house. My neighbor has two rabbits. One rabbit. No rabbits. All right, Lenny. Seven-year-old Lyle brought home a rabbit from school. Two days later, Kitty told him, Dad wants you to get rid of it or give it away. Lyle hoped his father would have a change of heart and kept the bunny in an empty aquarium. He became upset when it was missing a few days later. You were supposed to get rid of it, said Kitty. Go talk to your dad. Jose probably smiled and told him to look in the garbage. Horrified, Lyle went to the garbage, opened the lid, and found the bloody mashed rabbit beaten to death and covered with fly.
[57:04] Jose would have Lyle memorize and repeat lines from The Greatest Salesman in the World, a self-help book by Og Mandino. Today I will be master of my emotions. From this moment I am prepared to control whatever personality awakes in me each day. I will master my moods through positive action, and when I master my moods I will control my destiny. Once when Lyle was playing a match with an injured ankle, Jose began ridicule him. What a baby! Look, he can't run! Oh, poor baby! Can't play tennis! Finally losing control, Lyle shouted, Why don't you just shut up? Jose turned red, grabbed a tennis ball, and threw it hard at him. Then he ordered Lyle to get in the back of the waiting limousine. Inside, he took hold of Lyle by the neck and punched him in the face. Don't ever embarrass me like that again, or I'll kill you, Jose warned. The boy was shocked and speechless as blood dripped from his chin onto his shirt. Is that perfectly clear? Lyle meekly nodded. Yes. Oh, it's the moment I told you. Little kids. Little kids.
[58:19] At one point, the mother was admitted to the intensive care unit of a hospital. The diagnosis was, quote, acute Xanax and alcohol ingestion along with depression. 43-year-old female has one-year history of moderate depression and panic attacks. She's not self-harmful, and there's no reason to keep her in the hospital. She's having breakthrough anxiety, suspect personality disorder. A personality disorder, again, this is from my amateur understanding, is when you don't have a personality with a problem, like you're normal but have anxiety. The entire personality is the problem. On the ER admittance form was the nurse's note that read, do not give patient her own medications. Attempted to put more pills in mouth when I was not looking.
[59:07] Over the next year, other doctors prescribed Kitty higher-than-average medication doses, including Xanax three times daily and the antidepressant tophrenil. Dr. Kitty, sorry, Kitty saw Dr. Emery twice a month, but he felt that she was secretive and unwilling to discuss her issues with him. One afternoon, Kitty threatened to poison herself and the rest of the family. Lyle said there was quote screaming and threatening and my dad saying that he didn't trust her after that Jose sometimes refused to eat at home and would take Eric and Lyle out to a restaurant for dinner, so you've got the dad threatening to murder the children and you've got the mother threatening to oh what murder the children, I'm going to poison myself and the rest of the family, The brothers looked to their father for cues On when it was safe to eat the food at home, The son found a suicide letter that his mother wrote Goes on and on And these are the people, That all the media was making fun of.
[1:00:36] Later on Lyle had a friend named Donovan, and Lyle said I always want us to be friends is there anything I don't know about you and his friend said as a child he'd been molested while spending the weekend at the home of a family friend. He said, I remember the pictures on the wall, the color of the carpet, what time it was, everything. He'd never told anyone before. His friend Donovan cried as he described the memory. Then Lyle shared a secret of his own. This is from somebody else. He told me, oh sorry, this is Donovan. He said, he told me his father had been sexually abusing both Eric and him since they were little. Eric was the most affected because he was younger. He said Jose would take baths with them and that they were both scared because the new house had a huge bathtub which was supposed to be for sex scenes. Transcription by CastingWords Six weeks before she was murdered, Kitty, Menendez told her psychiatrist she was hiding quote, sick and embarrassing secrets about her family. She was concerned that her sons might be sociopaths.
[1:01:53] So.
[1:02:13] It's, uh, shortly before the murderers. Eric had been anxious for his freshman year at UCLA to begin so he could live on campus in a dorm and be on his own. This is the dream, as I mentioned before, that had kept him going, that someday he'd leave for college and escape the nightmare his life had become. But two days earlier, Jose announced, the father, he'd changed his mind. Eric would sleep at home three or four nights a week so Jose and Kitty could supervise his schoolwork.
[1:02:49] So he wasn't going to escape to continued sexual abuse that he alleges, I'm sad we're not a family Eric told his brother I never knew about your hair the toupee had been ripped off by his mother in a fight, I never knew about your hair we have so many secrets. He began to shake and sob. Those things with dad are still going on. What things? You know what things. It was Lyle's turn to be stunned. Eric confessed their father was sexually molesting him. How come you didn't tell me before? Lyle demanded, do you like it? Why didn't you fight back? Eric began to wail. He hated it. He'd been forced to do everything. Lyle, the older brother, blamed himself when they were ages 10 and 13 Lyle had been suspicious that their father was molesting Eric. He'd confronted his father said it wasn't happening, never followed up.
[1:04:04] He was worried that his younger brother might kill himself, so he decided he would confront his father again. We're holding all the cards, he told his brother. We can threaten to tell people. Oh. So. He goes to talk to his mother, Lyle, Dad is doing things to Eric again He blurted, what kind of things?
[1:04:42] Kitty demanded, sexual things, Get out! Says the mother, And it gets worse and worse and Closer and closer.
[1:05:12] So, Thursday, August the 17th, Lyle confronts his father in the library where they have their serious conversations. He said, I know everything going on with Eric. We'll leave the house if you want. But this all must stop.
[1:05:42] His father replies are you finished he encrossed his legs and shouted you listen to me what I do with my son is none of your business, don't throw your life away Jose told him you're going back to Princeton your brother is going to UCLA we're going to forget we ever had this conversation, Lyle screamed back you're a fucking sick person I'll tell everyone about you including the family and the police.
[1:06:16] So the moment he starts bringing up the sexual abuse of the son his brother, Jose says don't throw your life away what does that mean your life is at risk, his father said after he said I'll tell everyone his father said according to this book we all make choices in life son Eric made his, you've made yours. I'll only tell if it doesn't stop, Lyle replied nervously. We'll tell anyway. Now, this is when he believes that he and his brother are in serious danger. Because he has gone to his father and said, I'll tell everyone about you, including the family and the police.
[1:07:21] Lyle went back to the guesthouse. Eric quietly walked in the front door, went upstairs to his room, and locked the door. Minutes later, he heard footsteps coming down the hall. He hoped it was Lyle. It was his father. Open the goddamn door! Jose screamed.
[1:07:46] Eric was scared, realizing that Lyle must have confronted their father. So he unlocked the door, retreated to a far corner of the room. His father said, I want you never to say anything to Lyle. Now he'll go tell anyone and everyone, I am not going to let that happen. He'd never seen his father so angry. He hurled his youngest son onto the bed.
[1:08:28] Downstairs, Eric burst into the family room. His mother was watching TV. What's the matter with you? You wouldn't understand, Eric said. There was a smirk on her face. Oh, I understand a lot more than you think, she said sarcastically. I know. I've always known. What, do you think I'm stupid? A wave of revelation washed over him. I hate you, he told his mother. At the guest house, he screamed to Lyle, Mom knows, Mom knows. And it just goes on and on, the escalation. They should leave home right now, Lyle urged. No, that was crazy, Eric said. Their father would track them down and kill them. Where would they hide?
[1:09:28] And Lyle later said when his brother, younger brother, reported the sexual abuse, he was absolutely shocked at the level of sexual violence his brother described. It was very different from what happened to me. These were forceful, sick things. Eric explained that he'd never spoken up before because Jose had threatened to kill him if he told anyone. Soon after, they go on a fishing trip and it's very, you know, when you're in a very heightened fight or flight mechanism, everything can easily be interpreted as danger.
[1:10:37] Back at home, Jose and Kitty said goodnight before locking their bedroom door. Relieved but still apprehensive, the brothers drove to the UCLA campus and anxiously talked. When they came home, all the doors were locked. Normally, everything was left open, so the brothers were sure they'd been locked on purpose. They rang the doorbell. When Kitty came downstairs, she yelled at them for waking her up. Lyle was sarcastic. If you trusted us to have a key, we wouldn't have to bother you. Kitty went nuclear. I hate you! You're nothing but a problem. And my wish you'd never been born. Eric tried to defend him. The mother says, if you'd kept your mouth shut, things might have worked out in this family. They're armed at this point. Later on upstairs, footsteps coming down the hall. His father pounds. On the door to Eric's room. Open up! Terrified, Eric retrieves his loaded shotgun and points it at the door. You'll have to come out in the morning and I'll be there, Jose promised before stomping away.
[1:12:00] The next day, he's trying to engage in a conversation with his parents. And he asks about his tennis camp his father had wanted him to attend. Doesn't matter anymore, sighed his father.
[1:12:35] More lies and the sons feel that the parents might be setting up an alibi as far as I read it.
[1:12:55] The brothers panic. They had to leave the house right away, but the mother stopped by the front door. Lyle said they were going to the movies. The mother was tense and cold. No, they couldn't leave. I'm meeting someone and we're leaving, Lyle said. Kitty stammered without a reply. Then suddenly Jose was at the entrance of the family room. No one was leaving. He told Eric to go upstairs to his bedroom and wait for him. It was a code that Eric knew well. Apparently when the dad was in the bedroom with Eric, nobody was allowed to go anywhere near the room. Lyle screamed, you're not going to touch Eric anymore. You've ruined the family. The mother shrieks. Jose grabbed his wife's arm, took her into the family room and closed the doors. Lyle's mind raced. Eric was already at the top of the stairs. Lyle caught up to him and shook him hard by the shoulders. It's happening now, he said. Eric was terrified, certain the closing of the doors to the family room was a signal the brothers were about to die.
[1:14:09] And from that place, from there, from that history, from that mindset, from that terror, from those endless death threats, murder threats, from the half-suicide of the mother.
[1:14:30] That's where the murders occurred, the father who allegedly of course who knows had, repeatedly told both of his children that if they ever told about the abuse, he would kill them orders his son according to the son into a room, they can't get away and they're about to die as they experience.
[1:15:16] And this horror, this terror, this nightmare of an existence, the extreme levels of sexual violence reported by the elder brother against the younger brother, it's all alleged. I understand it's not proven in a court of law. I get all of that. But the question is to me does it follow patterns of evidence which are used to convict other people it's not a conviction it's just my amateur outside non-lawyer, legal nonsense opinion right, have there been situations where people without any direct evidence have been convicted of crimes based upon people sharing information with others. The crime occurred, and it's shared with others. It is shared with friends. People witness serious abuse. And it's told in letters. It's told in diaries. It's told to therapists.
[1:16:31] The man the father was an absolute brute in the business world and no one had anything nice to say about him really which of course is not a crime, there was a letter apparently written to another family member, talking about it he confessed it to his friend they're corroborating each other's stories. We say, ah, yes, well, they're both killers. And I get that. I get that.
[1:17:06] But the idea, as was generally portrayed in many areas of the media back in the day, the idea that these poor boys just slaughtered their parents so they could go on a shopping spree. No.
[1:17:39] But, you know, there's a certain machinery in society. I've seen it very clearly. There's a certain machinery in society. When crimes against children or... Oh, yeah, sorry, thank you for the reminder. Yes, Menudo was a band that he helped to manage. And one of the members of Menudo accused the father... Of sexual abuse as well. This is a pattern of behavior. The two boys, diaries, witness of extreme violence and abuse. The father literally saying, I can do to my kids whatever the hell I want. Confessions in diaries, confessions to others, confessions to therapists, letters to family members, all corroborating. All.
[1:18:56] Thank you, Chris. All of it. Well, yes, I mean, it's not exactly a legal standard of proof, but there have been credible reports of significant amounts of sexual abuse and of minors in the music industry, which appears to produce beautiful music by torturing people, sometimes children, that seems what goes on. You can look at endless complaints about this. Yeah, whatever goes on with Diddy. I don't think that the powers that be would have punished Diddy if it turns out to be true. They wouldn't have punished Diddy without knowing for certain that they could get a hold of the evidence and bury it like the Epstein stuff.
[1:19:52] When crimes against children, or in this case, alleged crimes against children, although I think that there's a fair amount of supporting evidence, to put it mildly, but when the, And when crimes against children are revealed, or alleged, there's a giant piece of complex machinery that gets set in motion to discredit, to attack, to abuse, to minimize, to defend the abusers. I mean, hello, I've seen this one up close. There's a giant piece of complex machinery that gets set in motion. It's always ready to be activated. Always ready to attack and discredit those who try to defend children, or, in this case, children who may have been defending themselves.
[1:21:10] We'll be right back. So, it is terrible stuff. And this is why, or this is the reasons why I will never, say no to someone who wants help in processing their experiences as a child. I, you know, I honestly believe this. I honestly and obviously can't prove it, But I honestly believe that, without a doubt, thank you Chris, I absolutely believe that I have prevented a significant number of crimes, as have you with your support and you're talking about these issues, I absolutely believe that I have prevented a significant number of crimes simply by listening to people about their awful experiences as children and providing, sympathy and outrage and moral support. Yeah, Javi Weinstein covered up until the internet could give victims a voice. So the internet is a way of bypassing the machinery that keeps victimized children silent.
[1:22:36] I mean, the internet is great for cat memes and Justin Bieber getting started, which may be part of this too. But the internet is a way of bypassing the machinery that silences the victims of crimes against children.
[1:22:59] I mean, certainly in the mainstream media, there's never been a shred of sympathy for what I experienced as a child. And in fact, there's just been attacks, right? Which is inevitable, really, when you realize what the machinery is for, and to a large degree, what the media is for. And I will say that it seems to be the Christians who have the most sympathy. And this is, of course, the sympathy that Jesus showed to children. Which was really one of the first in history. The father allegedly said, I mean, according to the son, Jose, the father said to at least one of his sons, this is the way that fathers express affection, just like the Greeks and the Roman soldiers.
[1:23:52] And it is, of course, amazing to me when you think about it, that this guy of course was very successful very successful made a lot of money he was in charge i think of all of hertz and he was in charge of a music company i think annie lennox and um, oh god what was her partner's name uh dave someone or other uh they when they produced their fourth album they handed it over to this guy and he was like this is great it's it's it's as good as Ghostbusters, which of course is a movie, not an album. So they found him rather curious, to put it mildly.
[1:24:35] Lots of artists around this guy, and nobody seems to have any antennae for evil. Nobody seems to have any antennae. It's like, oh, this is Michelle Obama, all these people praising Harvey Weinstein as a man-god among the artists and everybody standing up, as you pointed out, and cheering on Roman Polanski and... And all these people who claim to be, deeply knowledgeable about good and evil. They know exactly who's racist and who's homophobic and who's bigoted and who's this and who's that. They just have such a deep knowledge of moral good and evil, yet they can't even get a whiff of giant evil in their midst. Not even a bit. Not even a hint. In fact, they praise. They praise evildoers. They praise evildoers. They praise evildoers and claim that they are moral authorities who can determine good from bad, right from wrong. Thank you.
[1:25:52] Which comes to me a very interesting question, and I don't have any particularly great answers about this. I can just give you a couple of thoughts. I'd love to hear what your thoughts are on this, which is what should have happened. What should have happened?
[1:26:13] Parasite, is it parasite? Patricide is the murder of the father. Parasite, is that both? I think that's both, isn't it? Yeah, the killing of one's father, mother, or other near relative. So, the question is, what should have happened? In, let's say, a completely free society, well, of course, in a completely free society, and I write about this, of course, I've talked about this a lot, and I write about this in my novel, The Future, which was a grueling scene for me to write, which was Two Brothers with a Crazy Mother and How Society Helped Them. Oh, tore me apart to write that scene, I'll tell you. Tore me in two, like a zipper of disassembly. But what would happen in a free society with this kind of situation?
[1:27:10] Well, you would do a brain scan and look for trauma. You would look, you would, you would. So let's just for a moment play this out as if the allegations were true. It's just a hypothetical exercise. They were not proven in a court of law, obviously. And the witnesses are, well, the perpetrator or perpetrators are dead. But if it were true, and there was a way to find out about this. So the way that you would find out about this is you would give the kids a brain scan and you would look for markers of trauma, which you can do. Maybe I think you could do it even in the 90s because brain scans have been around for quite some time. So you would give these kids.
[1:27:54] The brain scans and you would look for markers of trauma. You would interview all the family members and you would ask them about any indications that they've ever had with regards to trauma. You would try to verify some of the stories with regards to even the one from, I don't know, 10 years before, 12 years before, maybe a little more, maybe 14 years before, with regards to the bunny. Hey, do you remember this kid? Did he take a bunny home? Uh that that year just did you remember oh thank you i appreciate the tip i mean i hate asking for tips in such a dark subject but it's hard to work on this stuff and i hope that you can appreciate it with some support so you would look for patterns you would of course examine all the other children that Jose, the dad, had come in contact with. So you would look at the Minuto boys, and you would say, did you ever have anything untoward? And you would, unrelated, and you would just look for patterns.
[1:29:02] So if the brain scan shows significant abuse, and there were patterns of abuse that occurred with other children, the two brothers are supporting, each other, and there is, of course, the murder, which indicates murderous rage. If other family members, as has been the case, you know, at five years old, the father whispered something into the five-year-old little boy's ear that had him wet himself and then punched him full in the chest to the point where he couldn't breathe. And to a kid, that feels like you're dying. I don't know if you ever remember the first time you got winded. I remember taking a spill, a bad spill off a bike, getting winded. And the first time it happens, you feel like you're going to die. Because you can't get your breath. You can't get your breath. You feel like you're going to die. So if the father hauled up his jose hauled up the little boy the five-year-old boy said i'm going to kill you and then punches him in the chest and the kid thinks he's going to die and then it's dragged down the hallway he thinks he's going to die and if the father has as he said when his son told him to to get off his back when he was yelling at him mocking him for hobbling around playing tennis with a cracked ankle and then punches him in the face and says you ever humiliate me again, I'm going to kill you. If he says to the youngest son, if you ever talk, I'm going to kill you. And if he says to the oldest son, if you ever talk, I'm going to kill you. Some of which is reported.
[1:30:30] If he says, you're throwing away your life, the moment he tells. If he says, hey, you've made your choice, I'm not going to make mine. If he says, get in the room. If he knows the parents are armed. If he says there's no point talking about the summer camp, it doesn't matter anymore, which is an indication that there's no future. Mmm.
[1:30:59] I don't know. At the same time, I also fully understand that we don't want people who want to kill other people saying, yeah, I killed him, but he's actually abused me for years when there's no proof. I get that too. It's complicated. Right? Because even though this may be a case where some people could lean towards, imperfect self-defense manslaughter, eight years, I mean, whatever, whatever you could come up with, right? The problem is, of course, if you set the precedent and say that people who are sexually abused can kill the people who have sexually abused them, well, of course, then you open up the gateways from hell, which is then people who want to kill other people for whatever reason are going to say, oh, no, no, he sexually abused me, right? So someone who kills a teacher says, no, no, the boy scout leader or whoever, Or, oh, they sexually abused me, right? So you can't have that card available to play easily either. Because then everything becomes self-defense and all murder can potentially be justified. I get that too. It's complicated. It's complicated.
[1:32:24] It's complicated. This is why prevention is better than cure. This is why the family who grabbed their five children and fled the house after the dad, whispered something that made the five-year-old boy wet himself, then punched him so hard in the chest he couldn't breathe. This is why you don't just leave the house.
[1:32:52] I mean, obviously, we need a better system for dealing with child abuse. We need a better system for dealing with child abuse. I did an interview yesterday. I think it's out for donors with Jeffrey Wernick. And he was talking about, with regards to child abuse, what are we supposed to do? Because the faster system is pretty bad. And as I talked about, with regards to the Turpin kids, the Turpin kids were rescued from their horrendously abusive parents and then sent to other parents who they allege treated them even worse than they would have actually preferred to be back originally with their abusive parents. What's the solution? Well, the solution is prevention. And that's what peaceful parenting does. So... And the question of what is believable. So if the sexual abuse and sexual violence, I mean, child rape and child torture, I mean, if all of this is true.
[1:34:06] Yeah, what is it with bunnies and psychos, right? Like the Glenn Close character, the bunny boiler. If we look at the dominoes, right? What are the dominoes? It goes something like this. The mother, in a fight, rips the toupee off the brother. I think it's the older brother. Yeah, rips the toupee off the older brother, of the young. And then they start talking, I didn't know you were, I didn't know you wore a toupee. Because he'd started losing his hair in his early 20s, right? I didn't know you wore a toupee. And because the father had political ambitions for the son, he said, you got to have a full head of hair, which means a $1,500 toupee and weird glue. I don't know what the hell that does to your skin. Youngest brother is, I have a secret too. The older brother is outraged and guilty. And in the trial, the older brother, if I remember rightly, also confesses to molesting the younger brother in the woods. So he's got his own guilt.
[1:35:28] I got a secret too. Dad's still doing this stuff to me. In a fit of outrage and guilt. The older brother confronts the father in wild emotion with no plan. Does what the father has always threatened death for. The mother won't let them leave. The father orders the younger brother to the room after saying, you're throwing your life away and there is no future and they're armed. and parents have weapons. I think that's the belief.
[1:36:12] And I understand the arguments against immediate self-defense. The mother was still alive. They go out to the car, get more shells, come back in, and shoot her again. I get that's not immediate self-defense. I get that. It's a mess. It's an absolute mess. If it's true that the mother says that she knew, then the rage is going to transfer to that as well. But what do you guys think? What is the answer? I mean, the answer is prevention, peaceful parenting, and so on, right?
[1:37:03] Crimes against children are very, very hard to prove. Crimes against children are very, very hard to prove. It's a little different now, I suppose, with cell phones and recording devices that the child, if the child has a phone, of course can record abuse that can help.
[1:37:26] But I don't know. my solution is you are not obligated to spend your life appeasing evildoers i don't care who they are you are not obligated to spend your life appeasing and serving evildoers particularly the evildoers who acted against you in brutal ways when you were a child jim says there is no solution apart from freedom of association well i think so and i i i want parents to behave better i mean that's a truism and that's a basic fact. I want parents to behave better. And one of the ways that parents behave better or are going to behave better, one of the ways that parents are going to behave better is that they no longer, at least if philosophy gets its way, they no longer can be assured of bottomless support from their children, no matter how they treat them. That parents, in a sense, can be fired. And people who can be fired tend to do better jobs. If parents can't be fired, then parents have little incentive any more than the government does. Then parents have little incentive to improve their provision of services, right? But, and I talk about this, of course, in Peaceful Parenting.
[1:38:54] Thank you.
[1:39:16] Yeah, there's a documentary about the Menendez brothers and Javier Bardem is playing the father in a, I guess this comes out of the Jeffrey Dahmer, I guess, fictionalization. And of course, we can imagine, without getting overly sympathetic, we can certainly imagine, what had happened to the father as a child as well. Hispanic culture is not wildly great with kids. All right. Somebody says, in the UK, coercive control was made illegal. A woman who killed her abusive husband with a hammer got her sentence shortened as it was proved he'd illegally treated her. Proved? See, I mean, that's the interesting question, right? Was it proved? Maybe it was. or did she allege?
[1:40:41] So, let's see here. At first, it seemed sweet. Natalie Curtis's boyfriend called her dozens of times a day, keen to hear every detail of what she was doing in her daily life, what she ate for lunch, who she saw at work. But she says the longer she's been with him, and particularly after they married in 2016, four years after meeting, the more his behavior became intimidating. He made comments about what she ate. He picked fights when she went out with her friends. He threw her things around the house. He berated her while out shopping. One night, she says, he even threatened to kill her. It's such a drip effect, each event gets a bit worse and a bit worse, Curtis says, speaking softly from her home in Essex, Southeast England, and then someone has control over you. Coercive control is the label domestic abuse experts give to the experience that Curtis, 38-year-old safety specialist, ironically, on the UK's railways, endured.
[1:41:32] It encompasses a series of non-physical behaviours, including threats, humiliation, monitoring and isolation from friends and family. That they say can be just as damaging as physical violence, often causing severe depression and post-traumatic stress disorder. In government schools. In 2015, England and Wales became the first nations in the world to criminalize such controlling behavior within relationships, making coercive control punishable. By up to five years in jail, women make up 95% of those who experience coercive control and 74% of perpetrators are men. Don't believe that for a second. Curtis began taking notes about the abuse saving text messages, phone records and even filming her husband's outbursts okay, that's interesting, so yes she had proof at least whether we say that should or should not be criminalized she had proof of that which is criminal in the UK and in Wales that's good to know, Thank you.
[1:42:43] I mean, obviously, if the allegations against Jose were true, it's pretty tough to mourn his passing, to put it mildly. All right. Any other questions or comments? If you have found this show to be interesting and helpful, support is always greatly welcomed at freedomain.com slash donate. And, of course, if you are going through any challenges, that would be helpful to talk to a sympathetic ear about freedomain.com slash call. You can just choose free call-ins. It's a free service and you can call me. We can talk about it and I'd be very happy to lend you a sympathetic ear and hopefully some moral clarity if you have. I don't go to extremes. Don't go to violence. Don't go to desperation and certainly don't go to self-destruction. Talk to a support hotline. Talk to a sympathetic ear. You can call me, freedomain.com slash call, and we can try to find a way to get you back into the light. All right. Thanks everyone so much for your interest and support this evening i look forward to talking to you on sunday have yourself a lovely evening maybe not right after this uh mess of of data but, it's great work that we're doing here and i am enormously grateful and deeply humbled and thankful for your support and your interest in your sharing good will triumph eventually the world will realign and we're part of that essential service. Lots of love. Take care. Bye-bye.
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