Extreme childhood trauma causing it hard to socialize with people!! Have a mindset that I’m not worth it so why should I try in life! Lack self confidence ! Just looking for some resources on how I can change my thinking bout life for the better!!
0:01 - Introduction
0:22 - Childhood Struggles
1:22 - Adoption Experience
2:38 - Lack of Contact
3:08 - Learning About the Past
3:52 - The Nature of Abuse
4:58 - Specific Examples
8:24 - The Impact of Yelling
9:17 - The Reason for Lying
9:55 - Frequency of Punishments
11:10 - Categories of Punishment
13:03 - Defining Respect
14:54 - The Role of Coaches
15:41 - Different Parenting Approaches
17:05 - Understanding Respect
19:24 - The Concept of Shame
22:26 - Hypocrisy in Parenting
25:01 - Introversion and Social Anxiety
27:51 - Concerns About Social Perception
29:37 - Rejection and Isolation
32:38 - The Fear of Rejection
34:14 - The Value of Relationships
36:51 - The Importance of Acceptance
38:02 - Emotional Impact of Parenting
39:58 - Understanding Responsibility
41:18 - Teaching and Motivation
43:58 - The Role of Responsibility
46:54 - Conversation Dynamics
48:56 - Ideal Parenting Approaches
51:19 - Values and Morals in Parenting
55:06 - Coping Mechanisms
57:38 - The Complexity of Morality
59:34 - Understanding Human Behavior
1:00:54 - Parenting and Its Impact
1:01:40 - The Nature of Remorse
1:04:00 - Understanding Social Nervousness
1:07:04 - Overcoming Childhood Trauma
1:09:35 - Family Dynamics and Recognition
1:11:05 - Support from Siblings
1:14:57 - The Importance of Comfort
1:17:21 - The Weight of Silence
1:21:58 - Confronting the Past
1:25:55 - The Challenge of Honesty
1:31:08 - Acknowledging Shared Experiences
1:33:25 - Responsibility and Punishment
1:37:38 - The Cycle of Abuse
1:42:57 - Honesty vs. Fear
1:47:16 - Finding Genuine Connection
1:54:56 - Reflection and Growth
In this call in, the host Stefan engages with a caller reflecting on his difficult upbringing and the psychological impact it has had on his adult life. The conversation begins with the caller expressing his challenges stemming from a troubled childhood marked by verbal abuse and feelings of isolation due to being adopted. He highlights that he struggled with belonging and purpose in life, revealing how his early experiences have left him feeling confused and neglected.
The caller shares that he was adopted at two years old and candidly discusses the information conveyed to him by his adoptive parents about his biological ones, revealing that they were both young and had legal issues, likely contributing to his adoption. This news created a sense of abandonment and lack of connection, as he has had no contact with his biological parents. As he delves deeper into his childhood experiences, he describes how he faced verbal abuse from his adoptive mother, who often resorted to yelling rather than constructive correction. The impact of this treatment left him questioning whether he was loved or valued, creating a cycle of shame and confusion.
Stefan probes further into the specifics of the caller's experiences, seeking clarity about the nature of the punishment he received as a child. The caller mentions a mix of discipline that included both yelling and physical punishment such as spankings, which he often felt he did not deserve. He confronts a conflict in his beliefs about respect and authority, acknowledging that his parents' harmful actions toward him contradict their teachings about respect. The conversation takes a philosophical turn as Stefan encourages the caller to reflect on the principles of respect, morality, and the implications of his parents’ behavior.
Stefan challenges the narrative that one can justify the mistreatment of a child based on perceived disrespect, urging the caller to consider the inconsistency in his upbringing, where his parents demanded respect while failing to model it. The discussion slowly shifts toward the social anxiety the caller experiences as an adult, which he attributes to his childhood trauma. He articulates how deeply ingrained these experiences are, leading to significant difficulties in socializing and forming romantic relationships.
The dialogue continues with the caller describing his romantic life, revealing a pattern of relationships that fall short mainly due to his introverted nature and challenges in expressing himself honestly. He reflects on a recent relationship that lasted only a month and a half, attributing its failure in part to mutual introversion and difficulty in communication. Stefan offers practical advice, suggesting that being open and honest about one’s vulnerabilities can help build deeper connections.
As their conversation progresses, the issue of the caller's upbringing and its effects on his identity comes to the forefront. Stefan confronts the systemic issues within the caller’s family dynamics, suggesting that the lack of accountability and acknowledgment of the mistreatment he endured plays a significant role in his current struggles. The host encourages self-examination regarding the power of honesty in relationships, reinforcing that hiding the truth due to fear of repercussions only perpetuates isolation.
Towards the end of the call, Stefan emphasizes the importance of confronting these issues head-on, rather than allowing the past to dictate the caller's present and future. He stresses the need for honest communication within the family, pointing out that avoiding conversations about past abuse keeps everyone trapped in a cycle of denial.
The conversation concludes with an encouraging note from Stefan, highlighting the possibility of change through self-awareness and the potential for growth despite past trauma. He reassures the caller that, while the journey may be challenging, identifying these longstanding emotions and experiences is a monumental step towards healing. Ultimately, the dialogue serves as a profound exploration of how childhood experiences can shape adult life, encouraging the pursuit of self-understanding and healthier relationships.
[0:00] Hello. Can you hear me?
[0:01] Hello.
[0:02] Hey, how's it going?
[0:04] Pretty good. How are you?
[0:05] I'm well. I'm well. Nice to meet you. I'm sorry you're feeling a bit under the weather, but I'm sure we can do some useful stuff.
[0:11] Sorry, give me one second. I'm kind of outside. It's kind of hard to hear you. Just give me one sec. Sorry.
[0:16] Sure. Sorry, can you hear me?
[0:19] I'm sorry?
[0:20] Can you hear me all right?
[0:22] Yeah.
[0:23] Okay, good. Yeah, so I'm all ears. Tell me what's going on.
[0:28] Ah it's a long story so i've.
[0:30] Got time man it's uh it's your time.
[0:35] So let's just say that my childhood wasn't like the greatest growing up because in a way i was kind of like verbally abused and then made it to where i don't really feel like i belong or fit in and then it was like what's the purpose of life if everything that i seem to do they don't approve of, whether it's not i don't know if it's just that they don't okay i was adopted let's just put it out i was adopted and growing up between my other brothers i feel like you know some people they have to learn things differently like be taught things differently in order to understand them, but me and all my other brothers were just taught the same way but i don't know if that has anything to do with it or I don't know, I'm just like really confused right now on why things are the way they are.
[1:23] No, no problem at all. Now, what age were you adopted at?
[1:28] Two years old.
[1:29] And do you know what circumstances you had in your first two years of life?
[1:35] I do not really because I was so young I don't hardly even remember.
[1:39] No, no, I get that, but I mean, you must have, I mean, or I don't know if you must have, but did you hear stories about what happened or Oh, what the circumstances were?
[1:47] Oh, the reason why I was adopted?
[1:49] Well, I mean, yeah. I mean, what was your first two years like, not based on your memory directly, but on what you've heard or been told or experienced since?
[2:02] Obviously, what I was told is that they were too young when they had me and in and out of prison. And my guess is they just couldn't do it. So that's why I was put up for adoption.
[2:16] So they did it for, I guess, a year and a half and what, it took you a couple of months to get adopted, something like that?
[2:23] Yeah, something like that.
[2:24] Do you know if you were taken from your birth parents or was it voluntary that they gave you up?
[2:30] I do not know. I don't know.
[2:33] And do you know what they were in prison for?
[2:37] Nope.
[2:38] So you have had no contact with them since, is that right?
[2:41] No. I don't even know. Honestly, I don't even know if they're still alive.
[2:46] And so how did you find out that they were in prison?
[2:52] I'm sorry, what?
[2:53] How did you find out that they were in prison?
[2:58] Well that's because that's what my parents now that i have now told me.
[3:05] And when did they tell you that your parents were imprisoned.
[3:08] I was probably oh this is probably like okay i'm 26 now this is probably when i was an age of a teenager so probably around like 15 16 because i asked about them and then they're like hey they don't want anything to do with you So yadda yadda yadda, the list goes on.
[3:28] Okay, so they said, your step-parents said that your birth parents didn't want to have anything to do with you, and that they gave you up because they were too young and they were in prison or they went to prison?
[3:40] Yeah, they were in and out of prison.
[3:43] Hmm.
[3:44] But yeah.
[3:47] Why do you think that's kind of strange? Why do you think they told you that?
[3:52] I don't know. In my mind, I was probably thinking that the reason why they said that is because, they just wanted me to move on. And then the fact that they're my parents now, they wanted me to keep the mindset of having them as my parents and not constantly thinking about my biological parents.
[4:11] Well, but the best way for them to achieve that is to be really nice to you and helpful and positive as parents. But it doesn't sound like that was the case too much, right?
[4:20] Well they weren't like they weren't uh rude or anything when they said it they just basically kind of put no no but the foot down and said oh.
[4:26] That you you said that you were verbally abused as a child.
[4:29] Yeah so.
[4:31] Tell me a little bit about that what what happened there.
[4:38] Oh it's because in a way it's like whenever i did something wrong you know how you're supposed to like correct the child and show them how to do it correctly instead i just got yelled at, and that doesn't fix the problem because in my mind that leaves okay do they love me do they not love me um am i doing something wrong am i not doing something wrong and you know and the list goes on so okay.
[4:59] So can you give me i'm not disagreeing with you of course i just want to make sure i understand the examples that you're talking about so can you think of an example, where you did something wrong and also what was yelled at you i mean yelling could include a bunch of different things uh what was what was sort of typically said to you and what was the kind of things that you were doing wrong.
[5:18] For like one example it was like i don't remember exactly what it was but i remember i was like doing something and then my mom didn't like it and she started yelling at me and got like a spanking or whatnot but it's like at times i realized yes okay i did this wrong like but then there were times when i got yelled at and whatnot and i was like, okay, what did I do wrong?
[5:47] Okay, I'm so sorry. I'm sorry to interrupt you, and I don't want you to be overly sensitive to this, but when I ask you a question, you can choose to answer it or not, but I feel like you're not quite listening to the question that I'm asking. Do you remember what I asked?
[6:03] About an example?
[6:05] So if you can give me a specific example of something that you did that was wrong, and what was said to you, like what was yelled at you or what happened?
[6:17] I don't remember exactly what was yelled at me, but I just know it was like, you know, how like typically it's like you see like a mom or a parent yelling at their child and.
[6:30] Okay, I'm still going to ask you, I mean, it must have happened hundreds of times over the course of your childhood. I'm just trying to get a sense of what you did that was perceived as wrong, right? Because, listen, and the reason I'm asking is some kids get yelled at and hit for not stacking the dishwasher quite correctly. Some kids get yelled at and hit for trying to run in the road, right? Or biking down a steep hill without a helmet. Now, the yelling and the hitting is not good, but sometimes the provocation can be different levels. so that's what I'm trying to understand is what was the typical stuff or what's an example of something that you did that was wrong that you got hit or yelled at for?
[7:13] I know one of them was I lied about something when the truth was more convenient. I remember that.
[7:20] What did you lie about?
[7:24] I don't know exactly what that was.
[7:26] Okay, you keep saying the word exact. Of course I don't. expect you to have the exact words, right, for stuff that happened 20 years ago. But just roughly, what was the kind of things that you would get yelled at or hit for?
[7:42] They would ask me, like, hey, why are you doing this? Or why aren't you doing that? And then I'd be like, in order to avoid altercations and conflict and whatnot, I'd just say, tell a lie, because I didn't want to get in trouble. I just tried to avoid it, because I knew I was most likely either going to get a spanking or get yelled at.
[8:04] Okay, but that's after you've already been yelled at and spanked a bunch of times. So my question is, what's the kind of stuff that you would get yelled at or spanked for?
[8:24] I don't know. Just not doing things correctly? I don't know, that's kind of a hard one.
[8:34] Is it hard because you don't remember any specific instance? And again, I'm not doubting anything that you're experiencing at all. I'm just trying to understand more detail about what happened.
[8:44] Yeah, it's kind of hard because it's kind of hard to remember certain instances.
[8:50] Okay, so is it that you don't remember any instances at all, or just some of them you don't remember? I mean, if I gave you a million dollars to tell me one thing that you got yelled at or hit for, do you think you'd come up with one instance from your childhood? And again, I'm not being skeptical. I'm just trying to understand more about your childhood.
[9:17] It's like most of the stuff was just lying about things when the truth was more convenient just in order to avoid conflict.
[9:23] No, but you lied because you were afraid of being yelled at or hit. So being yelled at or hit must have come first, and that's what I'm sort of asking about. Okay, let me ask you something else. How often were you yelled at or hit in a typical week or month when you were a little kid? Like maybe from the age of when you can remember up until about, say, 12. Probably about like… Or weekly or monthly or….
[9:50] It was on average basically about like two to three times a week.
[9:56] Okay so two to three times a week okay so we're talking i don't know 800 to, i'm sorry two to three times a week so we're talking uh 150 to maybe 200 times a year right yeah right over let's say from the age of when you can remember like i don't know four to 12, so let's just say 200 times eight years so we've got uh 1200 times that you were yelled at or hit now of course i know that's not an exact number but just approximate yeah that's just a rough estimate yeah yeah so of those 1200 times of course i'm not asking you to remember every time, but one just just so i can get a sense of what you were yelled at and hit for and it can't be the lying thing because that's subsequent to being yelled at or hit.
[10:54] I'm trying to think of one right off the top of my head.
[10:56] No, that's fine. Take your time.
[11:07] Yeah, I can't think of any right now.
[11:11] Well, can you think of a category? Was it like cleaning or talking back or disagreeing with your parents? or was it not doing your homework or cutting school? Or was there a sort of category of things that might ring about?
[11:29] Well, I do remember that there was this one time that I talked back and then my mom hit me and then ended up on the floor. But for my work, I kind of deserved it because of the way I was being disrespectful.
[11:46] Okay, so do you remember what the disagreement was about?
[11:50] I do not i just remember that that happened.
[11:53] Okay and do you uh what age were you.
[12:00] A teenager i can't remember exactly what i was probably 15 16.
[12:04] Okay so 15 or 16 you disagreed with your mother about something and then you felt that you deserved to get sorry was that hit or yelled at?
[12:15] It was both.
[12:16] Okay. So, so, okay. So you were getting hit into your mid-teens, right?
[12:21] Okay.
[12:22] And how long have you been listening to what I do?
[12:26] I'm sorry, how long have you been listening to what?
[12:28] To my show, to what I do.
[12:30] Oh, to your show. I actually have, well, one of my friends recommended it to you. So I'm actually pretty new.
[12:36] Okay. Got it. So, help me understand what you mean when you say that you deserved to be hit by your mother because you disagreed with her when you were 15.
[12:50] Oh, because I was being disrespectful.
[12:54] Okay, and sorry.
[12:55] For a kid, they should at least... Sorry, but...
[12:57] What do you mean by the word disrespectful? How do you know that that's disrespectful?
[13:04] When you don't treat someone with respect, like treat your authority with respect, that kind of...
[13:09] Okay, but what do you mean by respect? What does that mean? Because, you know, it could be said that hitting someone who's almost an adult is disrespectful, right? So if you're supposed to be respectful, then shouldn't your parents also be somewhat respectful towards you? And yelling at and hitting you for a decade or so is disrespectful, right? I mean, it's not respectful to hit people or yell at them or insult them. So I'm trying to understand what you mean by respectful. Does that just mean never questioning.
[13:40] Never disagreeing? Respectful means being kind, polite, and then in a way trying to put yourself in their shoes, realizing where they're coming from. so you could actually help fix the situation or fix the problem easier and better, have a better solution to it.
[13:55] Fantastic. Okay, great. I appreciate that. Okay, so being kind and thoughtful and empathetic is good, right?
[14:03] Yes, correct.
[14:05] So is it kind and thoughtful and empathetic to hit a child?
[14:10] No.
[14:11] No. Okay, is it kind and thoughtful and empathetic to yell at a child and maybe call the child names?
[14:18] No, because it takes a toll on them mentally.
[14:21] Right. Okay. So if being thoughtful and kind is respectful, and if respectful is good, then why would your parents not be respectful towards you and reason with you or listen to you or trying to figure out what was going on in your mind instead of just hitting you or yelling at you?
[14:44] I don't know if it's just the fact that they thought they know best, which, of course, they do know more than me, because that time I was only, like, teenagers or grown adults.
[14:55] But I don't know, that could possibly be, because it's, like, it's my way or the highway. Okay, so they know more than you. You live under my roof, you're going to do what I tell you to do.
[15:06] Right. So, if you say that your parents know more than you, of course they do. I accept that I'm a parent myself. So your parents know more than you, but that's true of coaches and teachers and priests and a bunch of people, right? Do you think that a coach, have you played any sports? Did you play any sports in your childhood or in your teenage years?
[15:30] Yes, I played sports.
[15:31] And what sport? What gave me a sport that you played?
[15:33] I played basketball and soccer.
[15:36] Basketball and soccer. Okay. We'll go with soccer because I'm British, right? Or at least that's my background. So I know that a little better.
[15:42] Okay, so do you think that a soccer coach who knows more, obviously the coach knows more about the game than the players, is that fair to say?
[15:52] Mm-hmm.
[15:52] Okay, so do you think that the soccer coach, that the best way for him to transfer his knowledge of the game to children that he's coaching is to hit them and yell at them and call them names?
[16:07] No.
[16:09] Okay. Have you ever had a coach who hits children when he's trying to instruct them on how to play the game?
[16:15] No, I haven't.
[16:16] So why do you think it would be bad for a coach to hit children?
[16:28] Because that's physical abuse and that's not a good thing and also it makes it to where the players or whatnot don't want to stay on the team or whatnot just arises so much altercations right.
[16:41] No and i i agree with you so the fact that a coach knows more than the players does not give the coach the right to hit the players. Is that right?
[16:54] Yes.
[16:54] Okay. So the fact that your parents know more than you does not give them the right to hit you. Because they're just other kinds. It's just a different kind of coaching.
[17:05] Yeah.
[17:07] Okay. So again, I sort of have to go back to trying to figure out what you mean by respectful. Because, you know, if your parents want you to be respectful, the first thing they should do is show respect to you, right? Like, if your parents want to teach you the right words for things, then they calmly and patiently tell you, oh, that's a tree, that's a rock, that's the sky, that's a cloud, right?
[17:32] Mm-hmm.
[17:32] Right? So, if your parents want you to be respectful, but they've spent most of your childhood yelling at you and hitting you, then they've modeled disrespect towards you. Is that a fair way to put it?
[17:47] Okay, yeah, that makes sense.
[17:50] Okay, so if your parents have modeled violence and disrespect towards you, it seems odd to me that they would then punish you for being disrespectful towards them because they've modeled disrespect towards family members by yelling at you and hitting you.
[18:07] Yeah, I can see that. Okay.
[18:09] Okay. So, when you said that you deserved being hit at the age of 15 because you disagreed with your mother or... It's funny, you know, they used... I don't know if they used this phrase in your family. They did in mine. You're talking back, right? But all conversation is talking back, right? I say something to talk back.
[18:30] It just depends on the tone in your voice and the way you're like, you know... the way you're saying it.
[18:36] Right. But if your parents have been yelling at you in an angry tone for your entire childhood that you can remember, if your parents have been yelling at you and, you know, did they call you names like stupid or selfish or I guess they said disrespectful and things like that, right?
[18:57] Yeah, there was one, Selfish, there, yeah, there were quite a bit of them.
[19:01] Okay, so your parents kind of insulted you, called you names, hit you and yelled at you. So that's what they modeled for you, so they did not treat you with respect.
[19:14] So then how am I supposed to know how to treat them with respect?
[19:17] Well, you're basically, if you do what they do, you're called really, really bad.
[19:24] And they always said like shame like basically, i've i think i've heard about this where it's like if a kid is called like shame on them or whatnot it makes them think i am bad and then guilt like the difference between guilt and shame.
[19:45] Yeah so guilt is usually when you have failed your own standards Shame is when you're punished, usually, for failing other people's hypocritical standards, if that makes sense. Okay. Right, right. Okay, so tell me what it means, then, that you deserved to be hit for being upset with your mother, for being angry at your mother, for strongly disagreeing with your mother. does that mean that any time you disagree with your parents, you are bad? It's wrong and bad to disagree with your parents. Is that right?
[20:27] Well, not necessarily. In a way, if it's ethical, then it's good to agree with them. But if it's not ethical or whatnot, then of course, yeah, it's not good to agree with them.
[20:37] Okay. And sorry to be Mr. Annoying Socratic guy, But what is it that you mean in this case by the word ethical?
[20:45] Right. True. Honest.
[20:48] Well, I'm sure that you honestly disagreed with your parents, right?
[20:52] Well, in some instances, yes. But that's the thing. It's like, if I would have brought it up or whatnot, they would have just been like, well, it's our rules, what we say, you have to live by them and buy by them. So it's almost like in a way, it was their way or the highway, and I didn't have a say in any of it. So I just had to do what they wanted me to do, or told me to do.
[21:16] Right. Okay. And was that because they thought that their rules were good and right and healthy and moral?
[21:29] It could be.
[21:31] Well, is that what they said? Did they say, our rules are bad, but you should follow them anyway? Our rules are immoral, but you should follow them? They didn't say that, right? They said, our rules are good and right, right?
[21:45] They didn't really even say that the rules are good and all of that stuff. It's just the fact of, in a way, they basically assumed me to understand that they were through their eyes. Does that make sense?
[21:58] Well, it's a little hard to understand rules when apparently it's a big virtue to treat people with respect, but then you get insulted, yelled at, verbally put down, and hit, right? So the reason why it's so confusing is your parents say, well, respect is really good.
[22:19] But then they don't show it.
[22:20] They treat you very disrespectfully, right?
[22:23] Yeah.
[22:27] So that's the part i i have trouble and that's why it's it's hard to understand what the word respectful like if being respectful is really really good, then your parents should treat you with respect right but yelling at you and hitting you and insulting you it's not treating you with respect right yeah so that is and also if if they say you should obey our rules, right?
[22:56] Yeah.
[22:57] Well, then they should obey their rules too, shouldn't they?
[23:03] And when you mean they should obey their rules, you mean talking about the rules they have set down?
[23:07] Yeah, so if the rule is you should treat people with respect, right?
[23:13] Yeah.
[23:14] Then they should treat people with respect, right?
[23:16] Mm-hmm.
[23:22] So I guess that's my question, is if they say, you should follow our rules no matter what, but then they themselves are not following their own rules, then that's pretty bad, isn't it?
[23:39] Yeah, actually it's pretty bad.
[23:42] So that's why it's kind of confusing. so if if the punishment for not following rules is to be yelled at or hit right then if your parents aren't following their own rules what is the punishment for them well i assume that there's no punishment for them.
[23:58] Yeah because they're grown adults.
[24:01] Right right okay now was it the case that you and your siblings were both, was the discipline the same, like the yelling and the hitting and so on?
[24:22] No there were some instances but it was mainly just me that got in trouble got yelled at you know, which probably explains another reason why since my other siblings are all grown adults too and they're all married and everything I'm the only one that's not married doesn't even have a girlfriend and in a way it's because, I'm like such an introvert that when it comes to talking to people, I have to wait until I feel comfortable around them in order to talk to them and get to know them and open up.
[24:59] Yeah.
[25:02] And I don't know if that has to do with childhood or what.
[25:08] Well, tell me what you mean. Again, I'm sorry to be Mr. Definition, but I always want to make sure that we're talking about the same thing. What do you mean by being introverted?
[25:19] As in when i hate being in big crowds being in huge rooms with a bunch of people, because it's almost like in my mind it's like all right what are they thinking about me in reality probably 98 of them aren't even thinking about you but in my mind it processes it that way to where oh are they thinking about me like in a positive way um if i say something are they going to accept it? Are they going to think it was stupid? So then that's another reason why I don't really say anything. And yeah.
[25:53] Okay. So you're concerned that other people might be thinking negatively about you. Is that right?
[25:58] Yes.
[25:59] Okay. Got it. Now, how did your relationships, is it two brothers that you have?
[26:09] I grew up, well, I have more than just two brothers, but I grew up with two of them, because the other ones were already grown and out of the house.
[26:16] Okay. So, yeah, how was your relationship with your siblings when you were growing up?
[26:23] One of my brothers I'm close to, the other one I, like, wasn't really close to. So one of them I basically did, like, everything with. Like, all the sports and all of that, but the other one, he, yeah. i wasn't close to him um.
[26:43] So the one you were close to um how did that how far apart are you in age.
[26:49] Uh i'm six months older than him since i yeah which explains because i was adopted yeah yeah okay yeah i'm six months older and.
[26:57] Did he is he introverted as well you said you're the only real introvert is that right.
[27:02] No he's extroverted which probably explains the reason why i was close to him because I kind of found it out this way. When you have two introverted people together, it's basically you're at the point of, times where there's like nothing but silence and then it's like you're trying to think of something to say but you're struggling trying to think of something to say they're probably in the same boat trying to think of something to say but they're struggling so i found is when you have me being introverted i tend to open up and like and maybe hold better conversations with someone that's an extrovert because in a way i struggle with starting the conversation but when they're the ones that are like starting it and then in my mind it's like oh i know something about that and then I throw out a comment and then it's basically like we go back and forth.
[27:51] My problem is just keeping it going. Like, for example, if I was with another introvert, because it would basically at that point just be small talk.
[28:03] Right. Okay. Okay. And what are your major concerns when you think about people talking about you? What are your major concerns that they're talking about? What is your fear that they're discussing about you?
[28:18] Like whether if they like me, they think I'm a cool guy or a nice guy or, you know, the list goes on. Yeah, nice, kind, cool guy.
[28:34] Okay, and what if they don't feel that or they don't think they're a cool or a nice guy?
[28:42] And in a way they told me they don't think that?
[28:44] Yeah, let's say, I mean, people would very rarely tell you, right?
[28:52] Yeah.
[28:55] So what is your concern? How would you know if they were thinking badly of you? Or what would make you think that?
[29:03] Because of the way they act when hanging around them? Because you could tell when someone's disengaged, when they're with you, And it's almost like they throw off that vibe that, okay, I'm not having no fun.
[29:16] And if they have a negative view of you, what is your concern about that? How do you think that might play out negatively for you?
[29:38] For me it's kind of gotten to the point that if someone does have like a negative view on me or whatnot i just like in a way kind of put them out of my life because it's you know like in a way not healthy to keep the negative when i already struggle with negative thoughts as it is i don't need more people to give me more negativity to have more negative thoughts to dwell in doll on in my mind.
[30:00] Right.
[30:00] You know?
[30:01] Right. No, but that's a practical strategy you have now. But what about in the past, what was your major concern about people having negative opinions of you?
[30:18] Because of them knowing that I was like introverted, you know, in a way it's like, in their mind, they probably go over a couple of things that, oh, well. I wouldn't really necessarily want to be his friend because it would be boring or, you know, he wouldn't really have anything to talk about. Because in a way, people like being around more extroverted, more outgoing people.
[30:49] Right.
[30:49] So in a way, it's not like an inconvenience for them. They're actually enjoying their time and they're spending with that person.
[30:55] So you're of more value or extroverted people are of more value. Is that right?
[31:01] To me or are you just to the world.
[31:03] As a whole?
[31:08] Well, they have, I'm not saying that they're of more value. Well, in my eyes, I kind of do hold them as more value because when I'm with another introverted person, it's stagnant. We have nothing to talk about. There's times where it's nothing but silence. So in my eyes, they're more valuable in a way. I'm not saying that they are the most valuable between the two. I'm just saying in my eyes, they are more valuable.
[31:34] Right. Got it. Got it. Okay. Now, why do you think you are concerned with people who don't like you or who might find you boring or whatever? And I'm not trying to say that you're totally wrong, right? We all want people to like us, right? I get all of that.
[31:56] Yeah.
[31:56] But what do you think is your major concern about people who don't like you? Why do you think you have that fear?
[32:03] It makes me feel like I don't fit in and I don't belong.
[32:07] Sure but that's not necessarily hang on but that's not necessarily a bad thing if they're bad people then you don't want to fit in right like I mean let's just take a silly example right if if, if it was a criminal gang you wouldn't want to fit in right so, what do you think is the major concern it's not just not fitting in what else do you think it might be.
[32:38] I don't know in a way like being rejected.
[32:40] Again if it's bad people you want them to reject you right yeah so what else but.
[32:47] That's the thing it's like for me if i don't hang around them like long enough to get to know whether they're a good person or a bad person how am i supposed to tell and yes i know some people you could tell right off the bat you're like oh yeah you need to stay away from them.
[33:02] Yeah, So you may not have the chance, right, if you don't know.
[33:09] To actually get to know if you're actually truly a good person or a bad person, because I haven't hung around them long enough to get to know them.
[33:18] Right, right.
[33:19] Get to know what their morals are and their values and, you know, the list goes on.
[33:24] Right, okay. So your concern is that they might not like you and you wouldn't have enough, you wouldn't have enough knowledge of them to figure out whether it was good or bad that they didn't like you yes okay, Okay, so would someone who didn't like you give you a chance, or would they just immediately not like you?
[33:56] It varies. Some of them would, but then also some of them didn't.
[33:59] But wouldn't a good person give you a chance rather than just write you off based on a glance or two, right? like a good person would give you a chance to show that you were worth getting to know, or at least not just dismiss you for no particular reason. Is that right?
[34:14] Yes.
[34:14] Okay. So if people did reject you without getting to know you, they would be pretty low quality people, wouldn't they?
[34:25] Mm-hmm. Because in their eyes, I'm like inconvenienced to them, so I'm basically wasting their time. So, yeah.
[34:32] Right, right. So, again, we're sort of back to why are you concerned? And I'm not disagreeing with you again, right? But why do you think you're so concerned with people not liking you? I mean, if you're a good person, right, bad people won't like you. That's fair to say, right?
[34:53] Yeah.
[34:54] Like if, I don't know, I hope you don't do many drugs, right? But if you are around a bunch of people doing drugs and you say it's unwise to do drugs and it's probably good to quit, then they might dislike you, right?
[35:08] Mm-hmm.
[35:09] But that would be a mark of the quality of your personality, if that makes sense.
[35:16] Yeah.
[35:16] If you had a bunch of people who, they could only get together by drinking themselves into oblivion, then you'd probably say, you know, gee, that's not particularly ideal to have to drink so much to socialize. And then they might get mad at you about that, right? if you if you're at the park and you see some guy you know screaming at his kid and you say hey that's really not good you shouldn't do that then that person is probably going to get quite upset about you right yeah so having people upset with you is not necessarily a bad thing in fact it may be a mark of your virtue if that makes sense.
[36:03] That doesn't align right with their values and their and their morals and whatnot.
[36:09] Well, I don't know about aligning with morals. I mean, it's not particularly moral to be screaming at your kid. So it's not just a difference of morality, like they're doing something wrong.
[36:21] Yeah.
[36:22] So it's not like you don't align with their values. It's like they're bad guys and you're a good guy and bad guys don't like good guys, right?
[36:30] Yeah, I can see that.
[36:31] I don't want to get overly simplistic, but that seems to be kind of important, right? yeah so I'll tell you why and I don't know right but this would be my my guess, I'll tell you why I think you're concerned about people not liking you.
[36:52] Okay.
[36:54] What happened to you when your parents didn't like you? When your parents had a problem with you, what happened? How did it go?
[37:09] I would get yelled at when I was a little kid, get spankings. there were times that I had to put like my nose on the wall and just stand there I remember there was like two times I had to stand there the whole entire day oh really?
[37:25] You had to stand there the whole entire day?
[37:27] Yeah I don't remember what I did but.
[37:30] It doesn't matter what you did it doesn't matter what you did like there's no, oh well if you did this that makes sense right? But, no.
[37:43] So now you kind of get why I have the feeling that whether or not people are going to accept me or like me or whatnot.
[37:48] Yeah, yeah. It's because when your parents didn't like you, they abused you terribly.
[37:53] Yeah.
[37:55] Is that a fair way to put it?
[37:57] Yeah, it is.
[37:59] So if your parents didn't like you, they abused you terribly.
[38:02] So, of course, it's hugely important for you to be liked. Because if you're not liked, if you're not liked you could be tortured I mean I don't want to be unfair but making a kid stand with his nose, against the wall for an entire day that's straight up torture, I mean it's your life so you know does that seem unreasonable to say.
[38:38] Yeah it is well, that's just like one of the beginning things of that's weighing me down.
[38:47] Well hang on hang on so again i if you were to take uh an enemy combatant in a war and you were to force the enemy combatant to stand in a stress position for an entire day, that would be considered torture, wouldn't it?
[39:06] Yes.
[39:07] So if you do that to a child, is that not torture?
[39:12] It is.
[39:13] Okay. So then your parents were torturous. They were child torturers. Again, I'm not trying to tell you what to think. I always think about things like I'm a philosophy guy, right? So I always think about things in terms of universals, right? In other words, if it wasn't a child, if it was just someone else, would that be a torture or would that be illegal or something like that?
[39:53] Well, it depends on what you were doing.
[39:56] Does it?
[39:59] See, torture doesn't depend on what you're doing, Torture is just wrong Yeah, So, help me understand what you mean when you say it depends. Are you saying that there is a time wherein forcing a child into a day-long stress position of having their nose against the wall, that there is a time or a circumstance under which that could be justified?
[40:37] Well, the only way I could see is if they did something really bad and the parents wanted to, Like ingrained in their head that if they do that again, your life is going to be like a living hell for the next day or so. So in a way that they won't do it. That's the only reason why I could see it that way.
[40:58] Okay, so can you give me an example of something bad that would justify that?
[41:17] I can't think of any off the top of my head.
[41:19] Okay now if a child does something bad right let me give you an example right have you ever played a musical instrument and been coached on it.
[41:28] Uh yes i used to play the trumpet.
[41:31] Trumpet okay great so if you have someone and i'm sure you did have someone who taught you how to play the trumpet. If you play the trumpet badly, is that your fault alone, or does that have something to do with how you were taught?
[41:52] In a way, it could kind of go both ways, because if you weren't practicing what they were teaching you, then what else do you expect? But then also, yes, in a way, it could go on there and that they're not teaching you a way that is understandable in your mind to where you understand what they're trying to teach you.
[42:10] Okay, so, and I completely agree with you. If you don't practice, then you're not likely to get any better. Okay, and that's good. But now, do you think it is a coach's desire to fulfill what the student wants, right? So if the student says, I really want to learn, I'm dying to learn how to play the trumpet, I really want to learn how to play the trumpet, then the student is already motivated to practice. Yeah. So if the student is not practicing, that's either because...
[42:44] He's probably not motivated.
[42:45] Well, he's not motivated. Now, he might not be motivated because he doesn't really want to play the trumpet. You know, it's just something his parents are telling him he's got to play the trumpet. He doesn't want to play the trumpet. He wants to play, I don't know, slide guitar, Bo Diddley style or something like that, right? So, if the child is not motivated, then whoever is making the child learn the trumpet is responsible for the child's lack of motivation. Is that fair to say?
[43:14] Yeah.
[43:15] So then the fault does not lie with the child, the fault lies with whoever is forcing the child to learn the trumpet when the child doesn't want to learn the trumpet, right?
[43:23] Mm-hmm.
[43:24] So it's still not the child's fault, really. And if the child is motivated, in other words, the child really wants to learn how to play the trumpet, but then the child doesn't practice.
[43:36] And that's solely his fault.
[43:39] Whose fault?
[43:41] The child's fault.
[43:42] No.
[43:42] They're motivated, but they don't practice, so that's...
[43:44] No, no, no. If they're motivated, if they really want to learn to play the trumpet, but they don't play the trumpet, then that is the fault of the teacher.
[43:59] Because it's the teacher's job, not just to teach you skills, but also to motivate you. I mean, you must have seen teachers in sports who were like, you know, kick, pass, hit the ball, take the score, do it, do it, right? They're encouraging the kids, right? They're helping the kids stay and be motivated.
[44:17] Yeah.
[44:18] And if you've been on the receiving end of that kind of enthusiasm on the part of your sports coach, I mean, it's pretty exciting, isn't it? Doesn't it help you be motivated?
[44:29] Mm-hmm. It also encourages you in a way, too.
[44:32] It does, yeah. So if you really want to be the next Messi and you want to play soccer, right, and you're enthusiastic, your coach is enthusiastic, then why wouldn't you just do what the coach says? I mean, you won't love every single drill, but if you understand the value and you see how it makes you a better soccer player and you start to win more games, then you're going to be enthusiastic, right?
[44:56] Mm-hmm.
[44:58] So, if a child is not motivated to do something he loves and wants to do, that's the fault of the teacher. So, for instance, if the teacher is just constantly critical and negative, then that's going to drain away the child's motivation, right? In the same way, if the, and this is more of a female thing, right? If the teacher is like, yay, great job, wonderful, when the kid knows he hasn't really done a great job, then that's also going to drain away his motivation because he knows he's not getting real feedback, right?
[45:35] Yeah.
[45:36] So if a child is not motivated, it's the fault of others. Now, I'm not saying the child has zero responsibility, but the child has relatively little responsibility because he's a child.
[45:51] Yeah. so in other words you're trying to say that it's the teacher's responsibility to instill the motivation into the child.
[46:04] Right i mean so you called me up not really knowing who the heck i am or what on earth we're going to talk about so it is to some degree my job to keep you interested in the conversation and to provide value to you. I mean, in this conversation, you didn't really know what you were getting into when you called me, right?
[46:27] No, I didn't.
[46:28] And would you say that the conversation has some value and it's worth staying into for at least a bit longer?
[46:35] It does because you're helping me see things through a different eye that I've never saw before.
[46:40] So yeah. I mean, that's the job of philosophy is to try and get as objective a set of standards into our heads as possible, and it can be tricky, right? Okay. So, if you hung up on me, right, which you can do, right?
[46:54] I mean, you can hang up on me and go practice the trumpet if you want. But if you, Whose fault would that be?
[47:13] I want to say, in a way, it would be yours, because you weren't keeping me motivated to continue the conversation.
[47:20] I would view that as entirely my fault, in that I was obviously not providing value, or was being offensive, or upsetting, or not saying things that you found of interest and of use.
[47:36] Yeah.
[47:36] Right like i mean if you want to go and buy a car and the car salesman is like really pushy and he's like you should buy the 200 000 electric blah blah blah and you're like bro i'm a student i can't afford that and he's just like no no no we'll we'll drop the price by five percent right oh whatever right so it's only 190 like at some point you'd be like okay like peace out i'm i'm not like you're not helping right yeah.
[48:00] I'll go somewhere else.
[48:00] Right so it would be the salesman's fault, right? So in a sense, I'm trying to sell you a certain philosophical perspective that I hope will be helpful. And it's my job to make sure that it is useful and helpful and we're going at a helpful pace, right? I'm not spending one hour on one principle, but I'm also not doing 20 principles a minute, which would be kind of confusing for both of us, probably more me than you. But it is my job as someone who's trying to provide information and perspective and value to make sure that that's what I'm doing. And if you say, and maybe it wouldn't even be a rage quit. It would just be like, Stef, or whoever the hell you are, you make a lot of sounds, but nothing really connects with me, and I've got better things to do with my time, right? Well, that would be my fault, right?
[48:49] Yeah.
[48:50] Okay, so when your parents...
[48:57] didn't like something you did? When your parents wanted you to be good, what was the best or most perfect or ideal way for them to approach that problem? What would have been the ideal way for them to approach the problem of, which all parents have, wanting your child to be good?
[49:28] So you're asking in a way how they would approach it.
[49:30] No how yeah what would have been the best way because i'm basically saying what is the best coaching for virtue which is the most important job that parents have is to coach their children on the nature of virtue right because anyone can teach your kids skills but virtue is really the i mean it could be the priest but it should be the parents right so if your parents have a complaint like um you're a liar or you're selfish or you're lazy or like if they have a complaint about you that has something to do with morals what is the best way for them to approach it to.
[50:06] Fix the situation.
[50:06] Well to to to instruct you.
[50:11] Yeah i was saying i was basically just yelling.
[50:12] No but that's what they did what's the best way.
[50:18] The best way for them to.
[50:19] Yeah for the best way what's the best way and it's a big question right It's not an easy answer. I'm not...
[50:24] Yeah, that's a big question.
[50:25] Right. What is the best way to teach someone? Okay, let me ask you this.
[50:32] Oh, I see what you're asking. What is the best way to teach someone to where they understand what they're trying to teach you in the first place?
[50:38] Right.
[50:40] Or you would want to do it with kindness and respect in a way that, you know, draws the attention of the child to actually want to change what the issue was. instead of if you do it with like anger and all of that, it makes it to where the child doesn't want anything to do with it.
[50:56] Right. Yes. And so the first thing that you would want from a teacher is for them to show that they have expertise in the subject matter, right?
[51:10] Mm-hmm.
[51:10] So in other words, if your parents are trying to teach you to be good, the first thing that you'd want to see is your parents being good.
[51:19] Yeah.
[51:19] Right? Now, when you look back on your childhood, would you say that you respected your parents' virtues, honesty, integrity, kindness, empathy, and their morals?
[51:38] To a certain extent, yes.
[51:42] Okay, that's great. So tell me what are the virtues that your parents manifested that you deeply admire?
[51:57] Well, I'm going to say that most of the time of the yelling and all that stuff was behind closed doors at home, whereas out in the public and everything, it's almost like it was completely different. So it's kind of hard to distinguish. Yeah.
[52:11] But that's hypocrisy. That's terrible. That's a vice. That's corruption. That's not virtue.
[52:17] Well, that probably explains why my view on it is kind of distorted, because I don't know what's...
[52:22] Well, if it's good parenting to yell at and hit children, then why wouldn't they do it in public? I mean, you shouldn't do the opposite of what you call the good just because there are other people around, right? Yeah So again What are the morals and virtues That your parents manifest It means they don't just talk about it But they actually do it What are the morals and virtues That you most admire With regards to your parents.
[52:55] In a way they help in a Time of need That's one of them.
[53:01] Okay, well what do you mean by that? What's an example of that?
[53:07] It's like let's say if I was like at the end of my rope one day and then I like need help with something but like what and so what.
[53:23] Sorry, I'm still here.
[53:25] Oh, yeah.
[53:27] So you're at the end of your rope, and what do you mean by that? And how do they help? And I'm not disagreeing with you again. I just want to make sure I understand what you mean.
[53:37] You know, like, at times when you've had, like, a bad day or a bad week, and then you feel like, all right, this is it. Like, I just want to curl up in a ball, hide in a hole or a cave or something, not come out for, like, the next two days.
[53:51] Right.
[53:51] That kind of thing.
[53:56] And so what would they do that would be helpful with regards to that?
[54:10] In a way like provide the positive feedback and by saying that it's not the end it's just part of life and things will get better because life has its valleys and then there's times you're on the mountaintop of life, so it's just part of life, having its ups and downs, good days, bad days.
[54:34] Ah, okay. Now, did they model that behavior when you were a kid? In other words, if they were having a bad day, were they able to talk themselves out of being in a bad mood and take things with more calm and peace of mind?
[54:51] There are times, yes. but then also at times it's like when someone just wants to isolate themselves away from like society or people whatnot you could tell they're not having a good time.
[55:03] Right and was that you or your parents that.
[55:06] Was me i.
[55:08] Skied in.
[55:08] My room most of the time growing up and then just kid my own thing listen.
[55:11] To music because it was dangerous outside of your room right yeah so it was like if you're sorry if your parents say there's no need to be so upset life has its ups and downs everything's going to work out these are kind of cliches or like you could crack them out of a fortune cookie at mandarin restaurant right but did your parents when they were upset with you, did you get to say to them oh there's no need to be so upset you know parenting has its ups and downs you know there's no need to get so mad you don't need to yell you don't need to hit uh because if i.
[55:42] Said that i would i would have been on the floor right.
[55:45] So as in.
[55:46] A way of in their eyes i'm talking back to them, so it's disrespectful.
[55:50] So they did not live those values themselves?
[56:00] In a way, no. It wasn't like every single time it was no, like they didn't, but there were some times they did.
[56:09] Well, but that's not the way that morality works. Right? So, let me ask you this. There were times when you didn't talk back to your parents, right?
[56:21] Yeah.
[56:21] Okay. So, when you did talk back to your parents and they got upset, right, did you get to say to them, Hey, listen, there are times when I don't do that, so there's no need to get upset.
[56:40] You know i never never told him that because i knew what would happen.
[56:43] Right so so the idea that there were times when they didn't they were able to talk themselves out of being upset doesn't really matter because we're talking about all of the times that they did wrong now the times that we do wrong don't get erased by the stuff we do right so for instance let's take a silly example right if some guy uh kills a homeless guy right and then the police say hey you know we have you on film killing a homeless guy does he get to say hey man that was only one day think of all the days in my life where i haven't killed a homeless guy so your parents did not follow their own advice consistently. So they say to you, don't get upset. But they regularly got upset in horrible ways continually.
[57:39] So they don't believe their own, morals. Does that make sense?
[57:50] Yeah, that makes sense.
[57:51] Okay, so that's why it's really, really tough to do that. so let me ask you something else if uh if i break some woman's leg and then i offer to help her by buying her a crutch am i a good guy.
[58:16] No at least.
[58:17] Not through her i'm trying to help her with your crutch.
[58:22] Well i think you're talking about if i like if i put myself in their shoes and then realize where they were coming from.
[58:28] No.
[58:29] It would kind of be weird if...
[58:31] Sorry, I was being sort of sarcastic. Sorry about that. So, I break a woman's legs and then I buy her a crutch. Am I a good guy? Oh, are we still lying?
[58:52] I know. I'm trying to think of that one. Because in my mind, instantly when you said that, my mind instantly ran to, okay, why would someone, I know you're being sarcastic, but still.
[59:03] No, no, it's a real question. I was being sarcastic afterwards, right? So if I break a woman's legs and then I buy her some crutches, am I a good guy?
[59:18] Okay. If you broke the person's leg on purpose, no. But if you did it on accident, yes. Okay. Well, if it was on purpose, then no, you're not a good person.
[59:26] Okay. So if I break, and you're right. Thank you for the clarification. That's a much better way of putting it. If I break a woman's legs on purpose and then I buy her a crutch, am I a good guy?
[59:34] No.
[59:36] Right. Because I'm giving her some small comfort to a wrong that I have created that doesn't make it all better, right? Because she'd much rather not have her leg broken than to get a crutch with a broken leg, right?
[59:48] Yeah.
[59:49] Okay. So, if your parents, through their abuse and neglect and sometimes torture, in my view, if your parents gave you some severe anxiety, right, And then they give you some comfort, which is kind of hypocritical because they didn't take their own advice when they got upset. But let's say your parents abused, neglected, tortured you a little, and then you end up with some difficulties handling some life events. And then they say, oh, don't get so worried. Let's say even if the advice is good, does that make them good guys if they kind of broke your spirit and then try to comfort you when that damage shows up in life?
[1:00:33] No it doesn't make them the good guys.
[1:00:35] Right so again we're going back to the question of what are the virtues now the fact that you know you have a really tough time with something and they give you some cheesy advice that they never followed themselves that does not make them virtuous i'm so sorry like that's just not a thing.
[1:00:52] Yeah i could see that that's understandable.
[1:00:55] Okay so let us ask again what are the virtues that your parents manifest that you admire.
[1:01:15] I don't know, it's kind of like a hard one.
[1:01:18] Well, it's actually, I hate to be annoying, I really do, but it's actually kind of easy. There are no virtues that your parents can manifest that make up for the wrongs they did.
[1:01:31] Yeah, children.
[1:01:33] Insulting children, yelling at children, forcing children into day-long stress positions.
[1:01:40] There are no virtues that can make up for any of that.
[1:01:48] Not even if they're being remorseful.
[1:01:55] Well restitution right is is important right do you do you have access to a car yes okay is it your car or your parents my car your car okay now imagine that i borrow your car, and i put a giant dent in the door right and i hand you the car back and i say hey man I'm real sorry My bad, and then I just walk away Are you satisfied? No Well why not man, I apologize to you What's wrong?
[1:02:26] Because apology isn't Good enough Because it still doesn't fix the situation It.
[1:02:33] Doesn't fix the door, right? No So what would you accept As Genuine restitution If I put a big ding in your door.
[1:02:45] If you got it fixed yeah.
[1:02:47] I'd have to get the one that caused it yeah i would have to so i'll tell you what i would think of in this it doesn't mean that's what you would think of i'll just tell you what i would think of right so if if i dinged your car door put a big dent in it, then what i would do is i would um i would say listen i'm gonna go get it fixed, and I'm also going to rent you a car for the time that it takes to get it fixed because you should not be without a ride.
[1:03:18] Yeah.
[1:03:19] Right? And now you would then say, okay, my car use is not being interrupted and the car is getting fixed and so it's kind of like it never happened. Does that make sense?
[1:03:29] Yeah.
[1:03:30] Right. So that would, now of course I would apologize but just apologizing and walking away isn't enough because the apology does not fix the problem.
[1:03:39] Yeah.
[1:03:40] And now you have some, you know, I don't want to characterize this out of turn. So if I get anything wrong, just obviously tell me, but based upon what you wrote to me originally, and then based upon what we're talking about here, you have some significant social nervousness, right?
[1:03:59] Yes.
[1:04:01] And that's just one of the things, but now, and that comes from your parents' abuse. You weren't just born that way, Now, if that comes from your parents' abuse and neglect and some of the torture and the insults and all that, right? If your social nervousness comes from your parents, and if the apology only means something if the problem is fixed, like it never happened, like I fix your car door and I rent you a car so you're not out of, you know, let's say it takes three days to get the car fixed or whatever, right? and I rent you a car for three days and make sure you're comfortable, right? Maybe I rent you a nice two-seater for the chicks to look at or whatever, right? Some nice sports car. So then you're like, okay, it's fine. It's fine. So my question is, if your social nervousness comes out of your parents' abuse and you said, well, what if they have remorse? Okay. How can they fix it?
[1:05:03] That sort of doesn't fix the problem.
[1:05:04] Yeah. It doesn't fix the problem, does it? Let's say that they fall to their knees and sobbing and, And, oh, gosh, we did such wrong, and we were neglectful and mean, and it's not your fault, and so on. Okay, does that mean that your social nervousness goes away?
[1:05:22] No.
[1:05:22] No. If I, as a parent, don't feed my kid enough food, and my kid grows up, like, I don't know, six inches shorter than they would have, can I fix that later? No. can i just give them more food later and then they get taller but the age of say 25.
[1:05:46] Oh well if it's at the age of 25 your growth plates are most likely closed so no you.
[1:05:51] Can't fix it later like you can't just say oh well i staffed my kid so my kid is is short let's say the kid was my son was going to be six foot but he's only five six because i didn't give him enough food. Can I fix that later?
[1:06:04] No.
[1:06:04] No. There is no restitution when something cannot be made whole. You know, if I ding your car and then I fix your car and rent you a car, you've kind of been made whole. But if you have a beloved pet in the car that I'm driving and your pet gets killed, i can't just get you a new pet no right there's no particular restitution for that, so is there anything that your parents can do that would make you whole again like you were never neglected or abused.
[1:06:50] No, because in me, it's like it left in a way, it kind of like left a scar in that it's still there. It's still visible.
[1:06:58] Well, and it can't like, listen, I'm not saying that you have to spend the rest of your life with social nervousness, right? These things can be work.
[1:07:05] I know that too. It's just going to, for me, it's going to be like twice as hard as it is for a different person, for another person.
[1:07:11] Right.
[1:07:12] That doesn't have the same trauma or whatnot that they had to deal with growing up or, you know.
[1:07:16] Right. I mean, if someone breaks your leg, you can get back to having a functional leg, right?
[1:07:24] Yeah.
[1:07:25] But you can't ever be someone whose leg was never broken, right?
[1:07:29] Mm-hmm.
[1:07:30] So, can your parents fix what they broke?
[1:07:38] Sadly, no.
[1:07:40] No. Now, you can fix it, and it might take work and effort. I personally, I went to talk therapy, which I find to be very helpful. I went there for a couple of years, I did like three hours a week, and then I journaled for like eight hours. I poured like, I don't know, a huge amount of money and time and effort and energy into talk therapy for a couple of years, and that helped hugely, right? I mean, it actually made me, in a sense, stronger than all of that, right? Like, you can go to rehab after your leg gets broken, and you can end up with even stronger legs than before, but it's still, it's a lot of time, effort, energy, and hassle, right?
[1:08:12] Mm-hmm.
[1:08:16] So, when I said that if you harm, neglect, hit, abuse, and torture, to some degree, children, then there's no virtues that can make up for that, and you said, well, what about if they have remorse? And my argument is, it doesn't matter. And that's my sort of, and do they have remorse? Have they talked to you in tears about the wrongs they did to you?
[1:08:38] No.
[1:08:39] Right. And, of course, the odds are that they won't. Because the only way that you can mistreat a child to that extent is if you lack basic human empathy and have a cruel streak. And people who lack basic empathy and have a cruel streak don't get to grow that later on in life. Nobody knows how to create empathy in someone who doesn't have it.
[1:09:05] Yeah, I could see that.
[1:09:08] So, the reason why you're socially anxious or have this social nervousness, I would assume, Obviously, I'm not a therapist, I'm not a psychologist, so I can't say any of this stuff with any diagnostic certainty or diagnose anyone, but I would assume that your social nervousness is because it was dangerous to be in people's company when you were younger.
[1:09:35] Yeah.
[1:09:36] You know, if I grew up with a bunch of pit bulls in the house that kept biting me, I'd be pretty nervous around pit bulls, wouldn't I?
[1:09:43] Mm-hmm.
[1:09:44] And people say, well, you have a weird pit bull anxiety disorder. And it's like, it's not a disorder. It's perfectly sensible because they kept biting me.
[1:09:54] Well, then that probably explains why whenever I go to holidays or whatnot, I'm at my parents' house. I basically just sit there on the sidelines, don't even say anything.
[1:10:05] Yep. Yeah, because why would you want to provoke anyone?
[1:10:09] Yeah.
[1:10:11] Right. Now, does anyone in your family notice that you're sitting on the sidelines or, to ask it another way, did anyone in your family notice that you spent most of your childhood sitting in your room?
[1:10:28] I would have to say it was my brother because he's the one that reaches out to me the most.
[1:10:33] And he's the listener to what I do. Is that right?
[1:10:35] Yes.
[1:10:35] Okay.
[1:10:36] Yes.
[1:10:36] Okay. So he's recognized that there's an issue. he has some significant concern about how you're doing and he wants you to enjoy socializing more to maybe be a little bit more outgoing and and so he's sort of recommended that you and i have this chat right it.
[1:10:56] Actually wasn't my brother that recommended it it was my roommate.
[1:10:58] Oh your roommate okay okay yeah but your brother has some concern about this uh and this is the one who's six months younger?
[1:11:05] Yes, correct.
[1:11:06] Okay. And what has he said to you about how your life is going?
[1:11:20] In a way, basically, it's like knowing that everyone goes through hard times in life, and then just the fact that letting you know I'm here for you if you need anything, right, in a way to make it to where I don't feel like I'm alone going through life, trying to figure out how to do things.
[1:11:37] Well, did your brother know that you were mistreated significantly as a child? I mean, he was there, right?
[1:11:44] Yeah.
[1:11:46] Okay, so has he ever talked to you about that?
[1:11:53] No, because probably in his mind, it's like, that's a touchy subject for him, so don't mention anything.
[1:11:59] So what do you mean? Sorry, why is it a touchy subject for him? I mean, it was more difficult for you, wasn't it?
[1:12:06] Well, no, I'm not saying a touchy subject for him. I'm saying as if I was him. In his mind, he would be like, that's a touchy subject for me. so I'm just not talking to him about it.
[1:12:15] Oh, so he would say it's upsetting to you, therefore he won't talk about it.
[1:12:19] Yes, correct.
[1:12:20] But how does he know that it's upsetting to you? I mean, you and I are talking about it. Are you horribly upset?
[1:12:28] No.
[1:12:29] Okay, so it's not that touchy a subject. Like if you had some big bruise and I jammed my stupid thumb into it, that would hurt, right? But we're having a conversation about, you know, the real nastiness that your parents inflicted on you as a kid, and it doesn't seem to me, again, I can't see you, all right, but it doesn't seem to me that it's horribly upsetting to you. So why would he think it's upsetting to you if you can have a conversation with me? I'm not your family. I'm just some guy on the internet and we can have a productive conversation about it. So why would he think that it's too touchy for you to talk about?
[1:13:03] Because of him living through it and seeing all the stuff that happened.
[1:13:07] But that's about him, not you. Why would it be upsetting for you?
[1:13:17] I would say that at first, this whole situation thing was upsetting, but then it's like I wanted to figure out some reasoning behind it and some answers. So that's why I've opened up more towards it to kind of, what's the word, try and resolve the issue and then get some reasoning behind all of the things that happened.
[1:13:40] That's a very elegant non-answer. Well done. You're like a politician here. You try to just give me the answer. But no, but why would it be upsetting? Why would he think it would be upsetting to you to get some sympathy for how you were mistreated as a child? I mean, that wouldn't be the typical response, right? If a kid falls and hurts his knee, you give him a hug and you tell him it's going to be okay, you put on a Band-Aid, right? And so you comfort the child when the child goes through something difficult. If the child is crying because they fell down and scraped their knee, you don't sit there and say, well, I'm not going to talk about it with the child because I don't want to upset the child. The child's already upset. You already have this nervousness around social things and other, like you're already troubled, right? That's why we're talking, right? So the fact is, he says, well, I don't want to trouble you, but you're already troubled.
[1:14:34] I don't know. I guess in a way for him, it's like he doesn't want to make the situation worse. I don't know.
[1:14:39] But how does he know that comforting you, which is to acknowledge the suffering you went through how does he know that's going to make it worse that's to say that to give someone comfort is to make their suffering worse but that's completely the opposite of the truth isn't it doesn't comforting normally makes things better.
[1:14:57] Yeah it does.
[1:14:58] Okay so what's the real reason he doesn't want to talk to you about your childhood.
[1:15:06] I'm not saying that he doesn't want to, it's just that it's never brought up as like a topic to talk about.
[1:15:14] Well, he knows that you're troubled, right?
[1:15:17] Yeah.
[1:15:18] Okay. Now, he also knows that you spent most of your childhood in your room, right?
[1:15:23] Mm-hmm.
[1:15:24] Which, you know, by the by, my friend, that's really heartbreaking. I'm so sorry. I'm just massively sorry about that. That's a horrible, it's like a little prison, right?
[1:15:34] I'm.
[1:15:34] I'm really i mean if my daughter like wanted to spend all of her time in her room and never come out and chat with me or go.
[1:15:40] Anywhere with me that would be freaking in a way for me it was like a safe place i had like what probably explains this is probably explains the reason why i know so much about sports and music is because i always watch sports and i always listen to me to my music right right so that probably explains why those are like the two topics i could talk for hours non-stop on but all of the other social stuff it's like man i lack knowledge in this area i lack knowledge in this area it's like in a way it just beats me to the ground where it's like okay this is so overwhelming i need like some answers on why you know my life is at the state it's at now right.
[1:16:19] So your brother knew that you had an unhappy childhood right and i'm not.
[1:16:25] Saying it's all unhappy.
[1:16:26] I get that, right? But in general, it was not very happy, right?
[1:16:30] No. Okay.
[1:16:31] So your brother knows that you had an unhappy childhood, right?
[1:16:36] Yes.
[1:16:36] He also knows that all the time you spent in your room learning about sports and music and other things, all of that time was spent not getting social skills, right?
[1:16:51] Yes. Okay.
[1:16:52] So when you have difficulty with social skills, your brother knows the exact reason why.
[1:16:59] Right? Yeah.
[1:17:01] Because normally, or in a sort of healthy environment, kids are out playing, they're doing board games, they're learning how to win and lose, they're learning how to socialize and all of that, right? But you spent a lot of time, or most of your childhood, locked away in your room because the house was full of pit bulls in the form of parents.
[1:17:22] which I would do too. I would do that too. If there were pit bulls in the house, I'm staying in my room. Thank you very much.
[1:17:28] Mm-hmm. Staying in the safe zone.
[1:17:30] Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, staying in the safe zone, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So your brother knows why you lack social skills, right?
[1:17:39] Mm-hmm.
[1:17:40] So why wouldn't he talk to you about that? I'm not trying to throw him under the bus. I mean, I'm genuinely curious. If I know why someone has a problem and I never talk to them about why they have that problem, I'm not really helping them, am I?
[1:17:54] Mm-mm. Well, then with that, it's just a question I have to ask him.
[1:17:58] Oh, I know the answer, I think, right? I mean, I'm curious what your thoughts are. I think I know the answer. Yeah.
[1:18:05] All right now what's the what do you think about it okay.
[1:18:08] So um how close is your brother i mean i'm the brother in question how close is he with your parents or your family as a whole.
[1:18:17] He's really close to him he like could talk like normal conversations with them and everything but he wasn't the one that was like always stuck in his room and everything because he like, yes he got yelled out every once in a while but it wasn't like the way i was sure i mean It's.
[1:18:35] One of the tragedies that sometimes seems to strike people who are not biologically related to the parents. Like, you know, this whole sort of fairy tale story.
[1:18:46] Do you think it's in a way because the parents are kind of nervous that, yes, they have a new child that they adopted. They're just afraid they're not going to raise them in the right way?
[1:18:56] No, I think it's real biological. like you know all of these stories where it's like oh in fairy tales oh we had a loving mother and then our father remarried and the evil wicked stepmother right you're not biologically related a lot of times there just seems to be, a miscommunication all.
[1:19:17] Of that stuff yeah.
[1:19:18] Like I mean if you have an adult male around teenage girls that he didn't raise that aren't his biological offspring things can get pretty weird pretty quickly right, There just seems to be a biological shield about having your own flesh and blood in the house that, and again, I'm not saying that's all there is, but it may be a certain factor. Okay. So let's say that your brother were to give you real sympathy and say, man, you had a really bad childhood and it was my parents' fault. It was our parents' fault, right? What does that do to his relationship with his parents?
[1:19:54] Right. in a way it doesn't make it stronger in.
[1:20:05] A way you're a very nice young man very.
[1:20:07] Different oh yeah because very come on what do you mean it doesn't make it stronger.
[1:20:11] He then has to look at his parents and say you abused my brother you kind of tortured him.
[1:20:18] And then knowing how they would respond to that because he saw the way I acted when I responded to criticism or if I was doing something wrong I'd end up on the fourth Right.
[1:20:29] So if he criticizes your parents, what happens to him?
[1:20:39] I don't know, I haven't really seen him do it.
[1:20:42] So I don't know how they respond to him. I think he knows, or at least that's what he believes. So when you say he doesn't want to talk to you about your bad childhood because he doesn't want to upset you, that's not true. He doesn't want to talk to you about your bad childhood because it will put him in a path of opposition, to his parents because then he'd have to genuinely criticize his parents for how they treated you and your parents I don't think take any kind of criticism very well no so that's why, Now, fortunately, I have, well, very fortunately, I have no relationship with your parents, so pointing out their moral failings and moral corruption is pretty easy for me. I'm not going to get cut out of the inheritance or have to have any awkward family dinners at Thanksgiving or Christmas, right?
[1:21:31] Mm-hmm.
[1:21:32] So that's why and this is why the extended family, doesn't knock on your door and say hey man what's going on you know you seem kind of quiet or let's talk about like you have this social nervousness it's almost like.
[1:21:49] For them it just became the norm like he's just an introverted guy so just the way he is I guess there's nothing to do about it I.
[1:21:58] Don't know that's my.
[1:21:59] Viewpoint on it of the way they're thinking about the situation.
[1:22:04] Yes. But I'm always a little bit suspicious when people's perspectives happen to serve their immediate short-term self-interest. Like, okay, well, if we think that you are just mysteriously introverted, there's nothing we can do about it, then nobody has to show you sympathy or ask about how bad your childhood was.
[1:22:24] Yeah.
[1:22:25] Now, does anyone else other than, I guess your two younger brothers would know this, is there anyone else who knew that you were being mistreated as a child? Anyone else in the extended family?
[1:22:40] No, because it was mainly just kept at home. We didn't talk about it whenever we went outside of the house and stuff like that. It's almost like it's just shoving the stuff under the rug.
[1:22:53] Right. Okay. Got it. So, did anyone ever ask or or be concerned or curious about the fact that you were so quiet and hid in your room a lot.
[1:23:08] Yeah, I've had some friends and whatnot that...
[1:23:10] No, no, sorry, within the family first.
[1:23:11] Oh, within the family? No.
[1:23:15] Right.
[1:23:18] They just all accepted it, that that's the way I am. I'm just introverted, so...
[1:23:22] Okay, so the family... And did your parents ever say, why are you in your room so much?
[1:23:34] Well at times there were yeah there were times when they were like curious and said hey you need to get out of your room and actually like do something as a whole as a family but whenever i try and do that it's in a way i feel like i'm trapped like i can't do anything i feel like, i can't say anything because it's like there's not a connection if you know what i mean right.
[1:23:56] Well and they're just criticizing the symptoms right basically get out of your room go touch grass or whatever right uh.
[1:24:02] Without.
[1:24:03] Saying why do you think you're in your room so much just out of a genuine curiosity right okay so is it my understanding and and sorry did your parents say or imply that well you're just introverted that's just the way you are.
[1:24:17] No they never said that but by the way they would act when i'm around them because you know the accents i know you know is actions speak louder than words.
[1:24:29] Sure.
[1:24:29] So from my viewpoint, I was just seeing that, yeah, they just accept me being introverted and whatnot. Like, oh, that's the way he is, so.
[1:24:37] Okay, so your nature is to be introverted according to your family.
[1:24:42] Yes, pretty much.
[1:24:43] Okay, so as far as I understand it, your social nervousness, your introversion, your hiding in your room, that's just your nature, like you're born that way. But every disagreement with your parents is not because you're born that way, but because you're voluntarily choosing to be disrespectful or talk back or whatever, right?
[1:25:06] Mm-hmm.
[1:25:06] So everything that they have caused is just your nature, but all of your disagreements are free will and your choice.
[1:25:18] Yeah.
[1:25:19] So that's kind of contradictory, right?
[1:25:21] Mm-hmm.
[1:25:22] Right, they could as easily say, well, if you backtalk, you're just argumentative by nature, so we shouldn't punish you. It's just who you are. So whenever the effects of their neglect and abuse show up, it's just randomly ascribed to your deep essential nature or whatever it is. But then when there's something they don't like about you that they want to get angry at and punish, then suddenly human nature goes out the window and everything is 100% your responsibility.
[1:25:55] yeah so that's not good so nobody in your immediate or extended family has ever talked to you about your childhood is that right right so that means that you're very isolated and yeah you carry that you carry that room around you your childhood room around you like a, box like you're a prison cell like it doesn't really leave because you even when you're in around other people, you're kind of still in that box because you're very separated from them because nobody talks to you about anything real.
[1:26:31] Mm-hmm.
[1:26:37] So what's your dating life been like?
[1:26:40] My dating?
[1:26:41] Yeah.
[1:26:42] Oh my gosh.
[1:26:43] Sorry for the whiplash. Changing topics. I should have, man, man, I should have a horn. Hey, you know what? I should get a bugle and play that or a trumpet. Okay. So yeah. How has the dating life gone as a whole?
[1:26:56] I just got done with the relationship probably five days ago. Oh, how long was that? How long was it?
[1:27:06] Yeah.
[1:27:08] Like a month and a half.
[1:27:09] Oh, okay.
[1:27:11] But the thing is, going back to what I was saying earlier, when you have two introverted people together trying to hold conversations, it doesn't really work well. And knowing that relationships, it's hugely about communication.
[1:27:27] Well, do you think that I find you to be hard to talk to?
[1:27:34] No.
[1:27:36] I mean, maybe a little bit at the beginning, just as we were getting to know each other.
[1:27:39] In front of girls, I get extremely nervous. I don't know. I'm sorry, what?
[1:27:41] No, you go ahead.
[1:27:43] I don't know. Maybe it's just like the fact that when I'm in front of girls, I get extremely nervous. That's why it's hard for me to talk or like talk about certain topics and conversations.
[1:27:54] Sorry. Why do you think you get nervous in front of girls?
[1:27:58] Because of my mom.
[1:28:00] Good.
[1:28:00] The way I was treated growing up. yeah because of the way i was treated growing up so in my mind it leaves a distorted picture on how it actually should really be.
[1:28:14] Right right well it's not just your mom it's all the females in your immediate and extended family who ignored how you were being mistreated as a child it's not just only your mom it's all of the people who enable your and enabled and excuse and avoid your mom's bad behavior is that right? yeah so how, just don't give me names but how many, females who were older than you were there around in your immediate and extended family when you were growing up was it like 5 or 10 or 15 or fewer or more?
[1:28:57] And you're talking that lived inside the house that I lived in, or just like in general?
[1:29:01] No, people who would come to family gatherings, that you maybe go to the beach with, Thanksgiving, Christmas, you know, aunts, uncles, grandparents, like how many females were around?
[1:29:12] Probably say like six or six.
[1:29:16] Right. Okay. So you've got six females who are around. Now, does that include your mom?
[1:29:21] Yes.
[1:29:22] Okay. Yeah, six females who are around, one of whom is severely mistreating you, and the other five are doing nothing about it and have never referenced it at all, right? Now, of course, the reason why your mother mistreated you, to a large degree, was because she knew that everyone around her would let her get away with it. They wouldn't call her out on it.
[1:29:48] They wouldn't do nothing about it.
[1:29:49] Well, yeah, they would ignore it, they would cover it up, right? i mean it's pretty easy to steal from a store if you know for an absolute fact that the cameras are broken and none of the security guards are going to do anything about it yeah right then you just walk in and take stuff right so you were neglected and abused because of the females now of course the males too right the males too i'm not trying to let them off the hook but right go No.
[1:30:21] It wasn't, it wasn't, it was my, okay. My dad was like, he was there, but he was kind of like out of the picture. He was working like all the time. So all of the discipline and everything came from my mom.
[1:30:35] And did your parents get along?
[1:30:37] Yeah. Of course they had like the arguments, like every relationship does, but other than that, yeah, they got along.
[1:30:47] Okay. And did your father know how you were being mistreated by your mother?
[1:30:56] Yes. But I don't know, in my mind, I don't know if that's just the way they know how to parent or what.
[1:31:03] No, no, no. I'm not going back to excuse land here.
[1:31:08] Okay.
[1:31:09] Right. I mean...
[1:31:11] I'm just trying to know the reasoning to things. That's why I'm saying that.
[1:31:15] Do your parents have modern phones? Like, do they have touchscreen phones?
[1:31:23] Yeah.
[1:31:24] Okay. So they didn't grow up with touchscreen phones, right?
[1:31:28] No.
[1:31:28] So they're willing to learn new things, right?
[1:31:31] Mm-hmm.
[1:31:32] So there are tens of thousands of books on parenting, right? None of which ever say, insult your kids, yell at your kids, and make them press their noses against the wall for a whole day. So they're willing to learn new things. Do they have a flat screen TV?
[1:31:51] Yes.
[1:31:52] Right. Did they grow up with a flat screen TV? nope no oh look at that they've learned how to deal with a flat screen tv, so they're all happy and willing to learn new things so saying that that's all they knew how to do is their choice they chose not to learn and do better right yeah.
[1:32:13] Because in the end it all depends on the choice you make.
[1:32:15] Yep and they didn't do it in public so it meant that they were perfectly able to not yell at you and not hit you right it wasn't like epilepsy where you don't have a choice You just have a seizure, right?
[1:32:26] Yeah.
[1:32:26] So they were fully able to control their temper. They just chose not to control their temper at home when they couldn't be caught, right? I don't know if you've ever seen these videos of some, like there's a lineup and there's some guy steals a wallet. There's a camera, right? And then there's some guy steals the wallet from the guy in front of him, looks up, notices the camera, and then it's like, oh, so sorry. And he puts the wallet back, right?
[1:32:50] Mm-hmm.
[1:32:50] And so he's perfectly able to not steal the moment he sees he's on camera he decides not to steal right he puts it back and oh I'm so sorry right but he didn't suddenly find morality he just was afraid of getting caught right, so your parents the same way in public they were nice in private they were brutal and so they're fully responsible for what they did in private because they were good parents in public and bad parents in private, so they knew what to do because that's what they did when people were around right they were nicer yeah, So, I just, let's not go back to excuse land, right?
[1:33:25] So, did your father know how your mother was mistreating you?
[1:33:33] Yes.
[1:33:35] Okay, and did your father also mistreat you?
[1:33:39] No, because all of the discipline was from my mom. If I get in trouble, and then my dad would be like, all right, go see your mom. And then, you know.
[1:33:48] Oh, so your father would send you to your mother knowing that you were going to get hit or yelled at or make your nose against the wall. sorry is that right yeah sorry there was a long pause there i wasn't sure i.
[1:34:08] Know yeah i was like the fact of you saying that in my mind i was like oh that is a red flag huge red flag but yeah.
[1:34:17] Go on yes yeah so tell me what what are you thinking about with regards to your father with that connection.
[1:34:25] What do I think what.
[1:34:27] So because there was a long pause there where you suddenly realized damn dad sent me to the wood chipper right what are your thoughts about that.
[1:34:40] I feel like in a way he didn't know everything that was going on because there were times that he.
[1:34:48] No nobody can know everything that's going on right so that's a false standard Okay.
[1:34:54] I don't know. I don't know. That's a tough question to answer.
[1:34:58] You know, no, it's not that tough. I mean, he knew that if he sent you to your mom... Okay, so let's say you did something wrong and your dad was around. Would he tell your mom?
[1:35:10] Yes.
[1:35:11] Okay. So he would tell your mom and then your mom would punish you, right?
[1:35:17] Mm-hmm.
[1:35:18] Okay, so your father caused that punishment because he knew that by telling your mom and sending to your mom, you would get punished, right?
[1:35:25] Yeah.
[1:35:26] So he did mistreat you. He fully supported and informed upon you, right? Like if you, let's say that you're with some friend, right? And let's just, I guess this is a silly example, but I just sort of want to make the point, right? So you're with your friend, and you're really hungry, and you've got no money, and you steal a loaf of bread, right? And then on the way out, your friend says to the security guard, hey, man, he's stealing the bread. And then you get in real trouble, right?
[1:36:09] Yeah.
[1:36:10] Now, your friend says, hey, man, I didn't punish you. Do you think your friend is innocent of anything to do with being punished?
[1:36:19] He basically did punish you at that point because he was irresponsible.
[1:36:24] Because he knew what was going to happen if he squealed on you for stealing the bread. so your father ratted on you to the enforcer knowing exactly what was going to happen so he's a co-abuser, and you were surrounded either by aggressive women or women who enabled or allowed the aggression to continue and never said anything, and you're in your mid-20s now, and nobody's said anything about anything. You're just left to carry this burden of this mysterious social nervousness. It's not mysterious at all, is it?
[1:37:13] No.
[1:37:14] If you get attacked, well, here's the thing too. It's one thing to get attacked by a pitbull in your house, or two pitbulls in this case. It's one thing to get attacked by pitbulls in your house. It's quite another thing to get attacked by pit bulls in your house while everyone's around and nobody does a damn thing about it.
[1:37:30] Well, no, that's the thing. Even when everyone was around for the holidays and whatnot, nothing would happen.
[1:37:38] I'd basically just be sitting there in a mountain. It's only when it was just me and my mom or me and my brothers and my mom, and I got in trouble. And your dad. And then that's when the hammer came down.
[1:37:54] Right. But here's the thing. If someone stabs me and nobody at the table sees the stabbing and all they see is the bleeding, do they get to say, well, I didn't see any stabbing? Like I'm literally bleeding out at the table, right? So the fact that you're, quote, shy and introverted and frightened and don't say anything and don't participate, all of that is signs of trauma.
[1:38:22] Mm-hmm but then why wouldn't they address the issue or ask why like don't talk.
[1:38:31] Well okay so is.
[1:38:33] It because it's going to be a misconvenience on their end.
[1:38:35] Well it's going to be messy and it's going to be difficult and maybe they're bad parents themselves, maybe this is a kind of like a criminal gang where nobody informs on anyone else is one member of the mafia going to say to the other member of the mafia hey you might be a bad guy because he's like you're in the same club you're in the same gang, sorry you were saying something else and I rudely overspoke I apologize.
[1:39:03] Oh that's fine i kind of lost my train of thought there.
[1:39:05] Because my apologies if it comes back feel free to interrupt me as much as okay yeah.
[1:39:09] I'll do that.
[1:39:10] Yeah so generally it's because nobody wants to call each other out on anything because the bad people are running the show and nobody wants to contradict them and the relationships are based upon mutual corruption and the enablement of bad behavior, maybe even evil, right? So nobody wants to call anyone out because they're all, you know, it's like if you're in the same boat out at sea, you don't want to drill a hole in the bottom of the boat because everyone goes into the water. So they're all colluding that way. And let me ask you this, right? And I'm not saying what you should or shouldn't do because I don't know, right? But let's say, when do you guys next get together? Is it like Thanksgiving?
[1:39:56] Uh, no, unfortunately I have to work on Thanksgiving, so it's going to be Christmas. Okay. And we're going to have the whole entire family.
[1:40:04] Okay. So let's say you got 20 people around the table or whatever it is, 15 people around the table at Christmas, right?
[1:40:11] Mm-hmm.
[1:40:12] And you say, oh, everyone, I need to, uh, I need to say a couple of things here. Um, you may have noticed that I'm kind of shy, kind of retired, don't say anything, don't talk about anything, but there's a reason for that. And the reason is that I was hit by my parents a lot, a couple of times a month for...
[1:40:34] Like verbally abused and in a way making it to where I feel like I don't belong or, you know, in a way kind of feel like it makes me feel like an outcast.
[1:40:44] Right. And if you would, I don't want to give you a speech for you, so take over if you want, but it'd be something like, yeah, and my mother forced me to stand with my nose pressed against the wall for an entire day. My bladder was killing me. My back was killing me. That's like a tortuous stress position that you couldn't even put an enemy soldier into. and that angers me that angers me it hurts me and y'all every one of you around this table look at me look at me in the eye every one of you around this table let it happen and you saw that i was shy and broken that i was not able to say anyone anything to anyone and you also knew that i was adopted so i might need some extra help to really feel part of the family and y'all just let be tortured and abused and hit and insulted and nobody said anything and now i'm in my mid-20s nobody's ever said anything what if you got to say for yourselves like i'm literally hiding in my room, because of the violence and neglect of my parents most of my childhood and they'll say well we didn't know and it's like but it's obvious you.
[1:41:50] Can tell by the way.
[1:41:51] Yeah you can tell by the way i wasn't did i make eye contact did i appear happy did i like come on man like you can't claim you didn't know that there was anything wrong oh we just thought that was your nature it's like but why didn't you ask because that seems like a pretty important thing to ask about right, so nobody asked and they're responsible for that right now if you made a speech like that and again whether you should or shouldn't do that i don't know i'm just saying if you made a speech like that about how badly treated you were by the family and in particular by your parents, would people get mad at your parents or you.
[1:42:33] Probably me because i have a higher respect for my parents than they do me.
[1:42:37] Because i'm the one that's that's just fear well yeah right so if you told the truth and called people out on their corruption, they would get mad at you, not your parents.
[1:42:50] Because that's on their end. They're putting on the self-defense mode. Whether or not if they know they're in the wrong or if they're right.
[1:42:58] So you can't be honest with your family without being attacked?
[1:43:03] No. Which also explains another reason why I've never brought it up.
[1:43:07] Exactly.
[1:43:09] The reason why they never brought it up is because they don't want to face a conflict and everything and ruin a holiday that we're all supposedly having fun doing.
[1:43:22] So the problem you have, if I can be so bold as to say, and I don't know for sure, this is just a theory, right, is that you can't be honest with your family. But the only way you can have a sustainable relationship as an adult, whether it's friendship or romance or maybe even work, is to be honest. But so if honesty is punished for you brutally when you were growing up, which is why you never told anyone about how mistreated you were, if you are punished, then you are frightened of being honest because honesty leads to disaster. But the only way that you can have adult relationships that are sustained is based on honesty. so the reason why it's tough for you to talk to people is because honesty is punished and you're you're averse to honesty for reasons that make total sense to me i'm not calling you dishonest i'm just saying that honesty would have been really dangerous and and bad for you as a kid right but so as an adult the way that you engage with people who are good decent moral people is you're honest right but if honesty has been severely punished in you like beaten out of you in a sense then you have a juggling act where you try to keep people's interest but you can't be honest and direct with them and so that's really stressful isn't it.
[1:44:39] Yeah it's extremely yeah really really stressful.
[1:44:45] Right so it's not like some weird social nervousness problem it's like Well, you have a contradiction that you want to be honest with people because that's how you keep their attention and how you get them interested in you because people want to get to know, like good people want to get to know the real you, but if you've been punished for being real.
[1:45:02] And they won't be interested anymore. You're like, oh, this guy's got too much. Sorry, go ahead.
[1:45:08] I'm so sorry. Go ahead.
[1:45:11] I know, because you said they would want to get to know, like, the true, real me. But then it's like, if I'd be honest with them and actually tell me the true real me, some of them, they'd be like, oh, this guy has too much problems he has to deal with. And I don't want to be a part of that.
[1:45:30] Well, you are not to blame for how you were raised. You didn't choose the family you were born to. You didn't choose the family you were adopted into. You were just a kid being handed around like a sack of potatoes or a football, right?
[1:45:44] Yeah.
[1:45:45] So you have no responsibility for how you were raised. You were just trying to survive in a particular situation, right?
[1:45:51] Mm-hmm.
[1:45:52] That would be like, I'm born in Ireland. That'd be like, I am so magnificent and wonderful for being born in Ireland. It's like, I didn't choose that. That's just where the egg happened to drop, right?
[1:46:02] Yeah.
[1:46:03] So you're not so if you say listen i you know i was born into a bad situation and you know i'm doing my best to deal with it but you know whatever like a good person would never blame you for that i hope that i've not held you even a tiny bit responsible for how you were punished or treated as a child it's not your fault you didn't choose your parents you did you just tried to survive in the situation like we all do you tried to survive in the situation you were born into right and you did a great job honestly you did a great job right you've you've got to adulthood you can have these kinds of conversations we can be pretty frank and direct with each other so good people will have sympathy for you and good people will recognize that most people have struggles like this of one kind or another honestly like even if your parents were good a lot of times they'll put you in government schools that propagandize you into like self-hatred right? Or the media trains you into, you know, hating success or virtue or whatever it is, right? So we all have our struggles. And even if you raise your kids absolutely perfectly, their struggle is then how the hell do they fit into a society full of half lunatics, right?
[1:47:15] Yeah.
[1:47:16] So everyone has their difficulties. So if you're honest about your difficulties, I mean, yeah, there'll be some people who will be like, and they tend to be very cruel and mean and nasty people who'd be like whoa you got too many issues man i'm not getting involved with your mess and it's like but it's just a cruel one-upmanship pretending that i'm perfect and you are just weird you don't want those people in your life anyway like honesty draws good people to you and repels nasty little trolls if that makes probably.
[1:47:46] Explains why i can't really draw the good people to me because in a way too afraid to be honest.
[1:47:51] Sure and it's not cowardice it's a survival mechanism yeah.
[1:47:59] That was basically molded into my personality ever since I was a little kid growing up.
[1:48:05] Right. You were always punished for honesty and you were rewarded for lying. Now, and then of course, sometimes you were punished for being dishonest even though you were also punished for being honest. So this probably has to do with why your relationship was six weeks, right?
[1:48:21] Yes.
[1:48:22] Because can you be honest and direct with a woman and show her the real you?
[1:48:28] No.
[1:48:29] Right so then she can't really connect sorry go ahead.
[1:48:33] Also in a way it's because she was also like really introverted it's like i'd say something and then it's like she gave me like a one two word or maybe a short sentence answer and it's like uh okay well.
[1:48:46] Okay but you know right after this conversation you know what to do now right if you come across an introverted woman yeah just gotta be open.
[1:48:54] And honest and yeah.
[1:48:56] Tell me about your childhood yeah right and and you don't have any problem with this kind of conversation right, and if you're genuinely curious and open and sympathetic some woman a woman right she's not gonna just oh no my childhood was great how dare you ask me right she's gonna be like oh yeah you You know, I've spent a lot of time alone, and I felt kind of rejected, and like, she's just going to be honest about it, right?
[1:49:24] Yeah. Well, that's how this was.
[1:49:26] So the reason that you guys couldn't connect is that you were both trying to avoid the central topic, which is, you know, bad childhoods lead to social nervousness. And if you can't talk about the bad childhood and sort of understand the cause and effect that way, then you end up not connecting on that level. But then what level can you connect on if you're denying your history?
[1:49:50] I can't really connect on anything to that point.
[1:49:53] Do you think that might have been why it didn't last too long?
[1:50:03] Yes i had a feeling that was like a huge reason why.
[1:50:07] Right right and she was basically kind of in the same.
[1:50:11] Boat i was growing up.
[1:50:12] So i'm sure she was and listen i don't know if you're still in contact with her but even if it doesn't you know resurrect or or deal with or solve the relationship it might well be worth you know just giving her a call and saying you know i know we didn't really connect too much you were pretty shy and all of that um you know do you think that like tell me a little bit about your childhood and you know i mean people aren't super mysterious in a lot of ways right if someone's shy like we're not born i mean i i know that there's some there may be some, genetic aspects to i mean most aspects of personality have some genetic basis but not to that extent right so uh usually shy people are shy um because they're surrounded by cruel people, And it makes sense to be shy. Like, I can't relax if I'm walking through the lion's den or if there are pit bulls around, right? It's not some weird psychological disorder. Sorry, go ahead.
[1:51:08] Which explains the reason why normally, like, shy and introverted people, they open up, but they have to be around the right people.
[1:51:14] Yes.
[1:51:14] I saw, like, a quote. I'm basically paraphrasing that quote, but.
[1:51:17] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And nobody's an introvert if they're really listened to, right?
[1:51:21] Yeah.
[1:51:23] So yeah so how many of these uh how many of these sort of relationships have you had or what or to let me ask it another way what's the longest relationship you've had romantically.
[1:51:35] That was probably it like the month and a half.
[1:51:39] Okay and how many of these shorter relationships have you had two that were way shorter than that oh yeah so i mean so that's the challenge right which is how do you connect with people who are shy? Well, you talk about how their shyness came about. But that means to criticize parents, which, you know, I mean, certainly in the Christian context, right, honor thy mother and thy father. And are you a Christian man?
[1:52:09] Yes.
[1:52:10] Okay. So honor thy mother and thy father is an important commandment. And it goes along with another commandment, thou shalt not bear false witness. So you honor your mother and your father by telling them the truth. About your experiences, about your childhood, about the good and bad of what they did. right even if.
[1:52:29] It's going to end negatively.
[1:52:30] Well the commandment thou shalt not bear false witness, doesn't have an asterisk on it it doesn't say well as long as it's going to end well, thou shalt not bear false witness false witness is an important it's a legal term to some degree right which is it doesn't you know if if somebody is wearing a dress that's not too flattering and you say it looks looks fine that's not a big deal but false witness is like about legal and moral matters right yeah so yeah it means don't lie about important matters of of morals and it doesn't say i mean could you imagine if jesus had said well you know but if i follow my path it could end badly well it did end badly right i mean i got crucified right so he didn't he said tell the truth though the sky is full right tell the truth and shame the devil and he didn't say tell the truth only if people are going to applaud you for it, or make sure you lie if telling the truth might have potentially negative consequences for bad people. So yeah, honor thy mother and thy father. You're not honoring them by lying to them. You're dishonoring them by saying they can't handle the truth. Now, maybe they can or can't, I don't know, but that's not up to you. It's not up to you to make that decision.
[1:53:44] It's up to you to tell the truth.
[1:53:47] And if people get really freaked out because you're telling the truth that's on them right it's not your it's not your responsibility to withhold the truth from people in case they get upset.
[1:53:57] Yeah it's there it's up to them on how they're going to react to it.
[1:54:04] Right right right right right i mean it's it's like if you have a coach and you're doing something wrong it might be mildly upsetting for the coach to tell you how to do it better but that's the coach's job he doesn't get there and say well but if i tell him he's doing it badly he could end up as a school shooter and it's like yeah but you know we can always frighten ourselves out of telling the truth with some horrible end result or whatever right but that's just an excuse right i mean that's why we don't give ourselves those excuses because then we can always frighten ourselves with some negative consequence into doing the wrong thing and not being honest right, So, what do you think of the conversation as a whole, so far?
[1:54:56] I enjoy it. Definitely helped me see things differently through a different perspective, in ways I've never thought of before. So, that's a huge plus.
[1:55:10] Good, good, good. Well, I mean, that's most of what I wanted to get across. Is there anything else that you wanted to say at the old end here? hello i'm sorry i didn't catch anything that you said oh.
[1:55:32] No i thought you were still saying something but didn't it sounded like.
[1:55:35] No that's a reasonable explanation but no no not this time, i'm sorry i was just saying is this anything that you wanted to mention at the at the end of the conversation?
[1:55:48] Oh, no. I can't think of anything right off the top of my head at the moment.
[1:55:53] Okay. Well, listen, I really do appreciate your time today. You did a fantastic job, and I'm really, really sorry for everything you suffered as a child. In general, I'm a big fan of honesty, but that's obviously your choice to make, depending on what your circumstances are. I'm a big fan of talk therapy. If you can get a hold of that, that probably is a good idea, and you can absolutely solve all of this and you can have a great life.
[1:56:19] And it's just going to take time.
[1:56:21] It's going to take some time, but you know, it's usually if you've identified the issues, that's 90% of the work, right?
[1:56:27] Mm-hmm.
[1:56:28] Will you keep me posted about how things are going?
[1:56:30] Yeah.
[1:56:31] Yeah, you can just drop the message in the Skype window and I really, really do appreciate your time today. And again, massive sympathies and I certainly wish you the best going forward.
[1:56:41] I think I appreciate it.
[1:56:42] Thanks, man. Take care.
[1:56:43] All right. You too. Bye. Thank you.
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