0:00 - Introduction to the Interview
1:50 - Relationship Breakdown
11:42 - Parenting Challenges
18:51 - The Cost of Decisions
30:08 - Reflections on Love
41:50 - Coping with Anger
51:28 - Acknowledging Responsibility
54:26 - Avoidance and Accountability
1:01:44 - Why Avoid Parenting Resources?
1:03:57 - Fears and Self-Justifications
1:04:35 - The Burden of Selfishness
1:05:07 - Foggy Answers and Deeper Truths
1:11:33 - The Shadow of Childhood Trauma
1:12:33 - Early Exposure to Sexuality
1:16:07 - Neglect and Lack of Guidance
1:18:22 - The Cost of Parental Negligence
1:21:22 - The Pain of Self-Discipline
1:25:13 - Anger, Control, and Vulnerability
1:32:46 - The Cycle of Emotional Abuse
1:34:56 - Relationships and Unresolved Issues
1:39:45 - The Impact of Unpredictability
1:41:09 - The Challenge of Self-Discipline
1:44:08 - The Weight of Sadness
1:45:02 - The Choice to Be Different
1:48:19 - Commitment to Change for the Kids
1:50:17 - Therapy as a Road to Healing
The episode features a detailed conversation between a caller and host Stefan Molyneux, where the caller opens up about his tumultuous relationship with the mother of his three children and reflects on the significant issues stemming from their dynamic. The caller initially provides background on his breakup with his girlfriend, indicating that while it was her decision, he is more agreeable to the separation than he initially claimed, despite worries about co-parenting their children.
As the dialogue unfolds, the caller discusses his struggles with feelings of obligation to uphold parenting principles against the fluidity and perceived unreasonable behavior of his ex-partner. He elucidates the complexities of navigating child-rearing post-breakup, especially highlighting the limitations posed by family courts and financial constraints. Stefan encourages the caller to reflect on the balance between fighting for his beliefs in parenting and the potential costs—both emotional and financial—of such a stance.
Further, the caller recounts the history of his relationship, detailing how they met and his acknowledgment of having cheated multiple times. He expresses regret over his actions but also reveals the tumultuous foundations of their relationship, which included on-and-off periods and arguments over child-rearing philosophies. The conversation gravitates towards the effects of his parents' influences on his behavior and views on relationships, revealing a pattern of aggression and lack of emotional warmth in his upbringing.
Stefan challenges the caller's justifications for his behaviors and choices, especially around his tendencies toward aggression, not only towards his partner but also when interacting with his children. They discuss the long-term ramifications of using physical discipline, and the caller comes to grips with the realization that he has perpetuated a cycle of violence, having hit his children under stress while also understanding that this was rooted in his unresolved childhood trauma and learned behaviors. Stefan emphasizes accountability in raising children and stresses that genuine love is rooted in virtue, urging the caller to consider the moral implications of his actions.
The discussion transitions to the concept of self-discipline and accountability. Stefan probes into the emotional reactions that arise when the caller contemplates imposing discipline on himself, revealing deeper layers of sadness and the fear of transformation. The conversation culminates in the realization that breaking the cycle of poverty, aggression, and neglect involves a commitment to therapy and self-examination. The caller acknowledges his past mistakes and expresses a desire for personal growth focused on the well-being of his children.
Stefan offers practical advice, including the benefits of therapy, which can serve as a means to process guilt and navigate the path forward. The caller reflects on his understanding of the situation, revealing a commitment to change and an intention to act in the best interests of his children, despite the challenges and complexities that lie ahead. The episode closes with a dialogue about the importance of self-improvement and a proactive approach to parenting, contrasted against the backdrop of the caller's past experiences and the established patterns he wishes to break.
[0:00] Hi, Stef.
[0:00] Hey, how's it going?
[0:02] Good, sorry. A little out of breath.
[0:04] No, no problem at all.
[0:06] Hey, philosophy exciting. I was going to be walking. No, no, I'm talking to Stefan at this point, so I'm not too nervous about that. I was going to start... Sorry. Let me get to my breath. I was going to walk and talk with you outside, and then you said to read the uh preamble so i ran back to the office so that i could oh oh yeah here now.
[0:37] Do we do we have a hard stop of an hour and a half.
[0:39] Uh not necessarily but i do have a client coming at 2 30 so okay.
[0:45] Just i mean just just in case i mean sometimes they go a little longer but i just wanted to know because we can accelerate otherwise.
[0:51] Um so, i don't want to cause too much delay i wasn't uh necessarily i can just read i.
[1:03] Can read it afterwards if you like.
[1:05] Right sure uh it's the.
[1:07] Intro so if it's complicated or it's going to waste time so we should.
[1:11] Probably dive in perfect yeah no i i have more than enough to uh to talk about to keep things moving and grooving um but uh i'll try not to be too disorganized so, write. I don't know if you wanted to start with any questions or...
[1:31] Just give me the situation.
[1:33] Sure. So basically, my girlfriend and I broke up recently.
[1:47] About, let's say, I guess probably two weeks now.
[1:51] Um it was her decision uh that being said i uh i was so on board with it that i really didn't fight it too much um basically i did send a reflex uh reflex a reply text to her and saying you know i want to fight for us but then later on i was just kind of like i don't even know why i said that because i don't have the energy to do that so anyway um and that would be fine if it was just me and her um i would be more than happy to call it quits uh the problem of course as it always is or almost always is is that uh our children are involved so that obviously complicates the breaking up um since i sent in the request to you we have talked more me and her uh and seem to have a plan for moving forward which i am okay with i guess i've i don't know if it's just i am okay with it or i've kind of gaslighted myself into being okay with it but um not not so much as concerned as before.
[3:04] But I still have my worries about her in terms of her unreasonableness. I think the meat and potatoes behind my request to you, Stef, was I sort of find myself.
[3:21] Doing a balancing act, or at least that's how it feels for me. Whereas, you know, on the one side, I want to stand by what I believe in and do, you know, everything that I think is right to raise our kids. But then on the other hand, there is, you know, to what extent should I do that considering she's unreasonable? And if I try to fight her on certain points, you know, for example, like where we're going to end up living or where the kids are going to end up living, you know, education, those sorts of things, especially in the modern world, you know, the family courts. I'm also, as you can probably imagine, the family courts are an uphill battle for a man. So that would be one thing, even if I did have the money for it, which I don't, and neither does she. And even if we did, I wouldn't want to see all that money go to lawyers, who I actually work for a lawyer. But still, I wouldn't want to see money go to lawyers and the court system if it go to my kids instead. So basically, I guess to summarize that, to what extent should I fight for what's right, you know, based on what the cost is going to be, because I think it's going to be substantial. I could be wrong about that. And maybe you have some thoughts. Sorry, the cost of what.
[4:46] Mediation, the cost of coming to an agreement about child support and visitation and so on?
[4:53] Financial, but also time, obviously, but stress. It's going to be very stressful for both of us. And then therefore, for the kids, of course, they'll be able to pick up on the stress, obviously. um and uh just mental energy um you know this woman is uh puts on a good face but i think when she uh when when she really gets pushed against you know in terms of what she wants she i think there's no end to her animosity i mean uh i've had some we've had our ups and downs and breakups over the past few years and uh okay so sorry so.
[5:32] Because i mean you're starting me at the end i don't know about the beginning so how long have you been with her um did you have you said you had breakups before how old are your kids you know just a bit of backstory.
[5:42] Sure sure yeah i apologize i know uh you're not readily familiar with my scenario so um yeah we we met, back when she was uh 17 i think and i was uh 19 uh but didn't get together until she was uh 18 and I was a little bit older. So anyway, we just found each other online. For me, it was always sexual attraction. I knew nothing about virtue at the time. I knew nothing about finding the right woman. Sad to say that I think I was listening to you at the time, but none of the virtue stuff or relationship stuff, probably just political or the truth about series. So I didn't get that knowledge from you and I did not get it from my parents. um we've talked about them before and uh yeah that that's not a that wasn't a good source of any information anyway um so you talked about.
[6:40] Your parents before right.
[6:41] Yeah the last time we talked about my last call-in was about my my parenting i was getting upset with my kids and you know yeah so obviously inevitably about my parents and basically how long ago was that last year got.
[6:53] It okay sorry continue.
[6:54] Yes um but that's fine i don't mind going over it again of course obviously you won't remember specifics um but anyway so fast forward uh after we met online to a couple months i guess after that so not a couple uh maybe six months she got pregnant um, classic dupe on my part i uh took her at face value when she told me that she couldn't get pregnant, and stupidly uh you know called her bluff and uh lo and behold as nature would have it she got pregnant. And, uh, um i don't know if you want me to just keep going step by step i don't know okay um so, yeah i mean she was pregnant for the usual nine months and now in between that pregnancy, uh i'm gonna be completely honest so i'm just gonna you know i don't care how i sound i mean i do but anyway uh i had cheated on her um and this will be a recurring pattern um but uh the cheating aspect sorry i was going to say it was just talking online but i think there was an, person element to it i'm not trying to uh use euphemisms here um i don't know if there was sex involved but anyway it was still cheating so she broke up with me briefly got back together.
[8:18] You said you didn't you cheated on her but you didn't know if there was physical stuff involved.
[8:24] Well looking back now i can't remember if that instance if i had actually done something as far as she knew anyway it was just stuff she found on my phone basically like communication with other women but.
[8:36] Sorry you don't remember if you had physical interactions with another woman.
[8:42] Uh i i can't because this happened between me and her like a couple different times over the years so, in this instance i can't remember if i had physically uh you know cheated with someone else i think maybe i had met somebody else at one point brought them back to the apartment, and but we didn't have sex we didn't even kiss or anything um, and then that was the first time um we got back together over the holidays and then the second time it was only maybe like a month and a half after the first breakup the second breakup she found out again on my phone i've been talking to women um again i think this was all just like online flirting and stuff uh maybe sending nude pictures i do i don't i don't believe at this point there was anything uh physical like she never caught me like physically, cheating on any on her with anyone but i will admit that i have done it over the years, i just don't know if at that point um i had and i'm just i'm drawing the distinction because I think there is a fair distinction between, you know, just messaging someone and actually having sex with them. I'm not saying I'm a good person for doing either of those, but, you know, just that context is there.
[9:59] Okay, got it.
[10:01] Anyway, so we talked about that holiday season a number of years ago. And this is before, again, the first child was born.
[10:14] Then I think we were separated Until right around Right when the first child was expected So maybe within the month Got back together again, um child was born a beautiful daughter and then a couple months after that uh broke up again for a similar reason and i know here at the beginning i i sound like the asshole and i probably was i was the one that caused all these problems, uh but you know i'll get to you know what what i talked about in my my preamble so anyway um, right so uh broke up again at that point um so at this point my baby is two or three months old maybe a little younger um and then at that point so up until then we had been living in the same apartment or if we were broken up maybe she would be staying somewhere else or then we would sorry we would trade off maybe like some months i'd be staying there, she would be somewhere else and then maybe uh she would be staying there and i would be like living back with my parents or something but then, that year my first the first year of my daughter's life near the end of it near the holidays or maybe it was early the next year after, she ended up moving away out of town about an hour because she for financial reasons and I think she just for her own mental health I guess she wanted to live with one of her half sisters or stepsisters.
[11:43] So she went there and took my daughter with her. Obviously, I could have fought for her, so I shouldn't say took her. I mean, I obviously acquiesced to some degree and let that happen.
[11:57] Sorry, I mean, you were driving her away, but it's constant cheating, right?
[12:02] Oh, yes. I would agree with that.
[12:05] Okay, just checking, because you seem to be like, well, I should have fought for her. But she was leaving because you were cheating, right?
[12:13] Correct.
[12:13] Okay.
[12:14] Well, I don't, I don't, I mean, I don't necessarily know that's why she left. Like I said, I think it was for financial reasons, uh, or, or maybe like, I think maybe her mental health more than anything. So I guess if we're, I don't want to split hair. So, so let's just say that that's probably like, like if I wasn't cheating, she probably wouldn't have left. So yes, it's, it's probably my, it's my fault. Let's just say that I'm fine with admitting that now I'm not.
[12:37] Well, I mean, to be perfectly blunt, you were being kind of a scumbag with a new kid in the house, right?
[12:42] Oh absolutely i mean uh as.
[12:44] Long as we're on the same page regarding that.
[12:46] Because the message is all about how crazy she is right right and and i think that's what i was saying earlier like we'll get to that because i think what what's what's happened here is that i was, uh i'll just say a piece of shit um in terms of my behavior uh and to some degree still am when it comes to her and we'll get to that but um you know i mean it.
[13:09] Seems likely that you didn't bond with your daughter as well as you should have, because the bond with the kid and the love for the mother is what keeps the man from straying, to some degree, right?
[13:20] Correct okay so sorry she moves out your.
[13:25] Daughter's like a year old at this point.
[13:28] Uh no i think she was probably i mean i'm not trying i'm not trying to be a nip thing maybe she was like nine months so so it's getting close to a year i suppose yep um so and then uh i stayed at that same apartment like it doesn't necessarily matter where i stayed it was the same city let's just say so we're about an hour away from each other um i did move back my parents i think at some point and then i got my own place but anyway my interactions with my daughter and the mother were a couple times a week i think um and uh and then of course as we usually do me and her uh we got back together again at some point a couple months later so then it was like a long distance relationship technically and it remained that way when.
[14:13] You guys get back together do you do that in part because you've promised to stop cheating.
[14:18] I i must have made some kind of statement like that i don't i don't imagine i wouldn't have well i mean if that's why.
[14:28] She left then she'd want that i assume she'd want that fixed.
[14:31] The kind of person that she is slash was she wouldn't have sat me down and said like listen so and so you have to promise me like she wouldn't do that but I'm almost certain they would have said like, no, I'm not going to do it anymore. I don't know if I gave her any reasons for it at the time, but yeah, I'm sure that that would have happened. I would have made some kind of promise. Now the next breakup, sorry, there was a breakup in between. Sorry, not in between, but there was a breakup after that. Context, we were together at this point, but long distance. um my daughter's over one years old at this point um we broke up because there was some kind of falling out we had and we both lost our temper um this was over a text message it was always it's always been that way uh never like why people.
[15:24] Have conflicts over text is beyond me but okay.
[15:26] Oh yeah well not because i wanted to but just because uh i kind of let it happen i guess because she didn't want to do it in person. And I was pretty emotionally volatile at the time. So I wouldn't have probably wanted to do it anyway in person myself. I'd be crying and yelling and stuff. So it worked out better that way, I think. But anyway, it's funny because I don't remember what this breakup was about necessarily. I think it was just, it wasn't involving cheating.
[15:59] It was some kind of falling out. I don't remember now, but we were split up then from, this is kind of the part in the whole storyline where i i get a little foggy about it but um i think maybe it was up to a year perhaps that we were not together at that point afterwards still doing the long distance thing um, yeah i mean just kind of business as usual i would see the my daughter do once a while not every once in a while but a couple times a week um maybe maybe we weren't broken up for a year might have been only a couple months but uh i guess i might fast forward a bit because nothing really happened substantial so that's wrong actually because we had uh my second child so uh she came about yeah she came about when we were still long distance um and um, and so you've got this highly unstable relationship, yes you decide to.
[17:01] Have unprotected sex.
[17:02] Yeah we uh i can count on one hand no no.
[17:08] I don't care about how many times you did it it's like saying well there were only one to six one to six.
[17:12] Chambers when.
[17:13] The guy playing russian roulette is only one in six right doesn't matter.
[17:17] So you had.
[17:18] Unprotected sex in this highly unstable relationship.
[17:21] No no sorry i was i was trying to say i can kind of one hand the times i use a condom so i was i'm agreeing oh sorry so the other way okay so So you are.
[17:28] Sorry, my apologies. I guess I jumped the gun and so did you. So, okay. So you have a lot of unprotected sex with this woman in a highly unstable relationship. And why, why do you do that?
[17:42] I'm trying to not give a canned answer because I know you're going to say the whole, yes, you do. So what would have been the real reason I did that? I'll be honest, I think a part of it is a little fetishistic, maybe 10%, 15%, and then...
[18:07] Sorry, I don't know what fetishistic means in this context.
[18:11] Okay. Just, I don't know if it is a fetish or if that's just my way of looking at it, but having unprotected sex.
[18:23] Well, it's not a fetish. If you want a raw dog, I mean, it feels better, right? I get that. But we're talking about five minutes of pleasure versus some kid having to spend 18 years in a chaotic couple's environment. That's the part, like, that's the equation I don't quite follow.
[18:44] Just making a bad decision.
[18:46] Well, it's selfish, right?
[18:49] It would have to be. I mean, I don't know how else.
[18:51] Yeah, I mean, it's selfish because you say, well, I want sexual pleasure for five minutes and too bad if another kid gets born into this horrible situation.
[19:03] But I also feel like at the time, in some warped way, I wanted another child with her. maybe that's.
[19:12] Selfish because it's i want i want i want not what's best for my.
[19:15] Right right no no i mean yeah i could i could go into more details but it would be a longer term.
[19:21] Selfishness but it's still selfish right.
[19:22] Sure right no i'm not trying to sugarcoat my my own involvement here obviously so okay um yeah you have another that's that's yes um and then, we i do move back with i move up with her to this place so that's an hour away again so i moved out, from where i was currently living to where she was uh when that the newest child was a couple months old um and then oh sorry uh i can't remember if i said that she got pregnant or i might be skipping the whole pregnancy there. But I don't think anything really eventful happened those nine months. Like I said, until she was born. A couple months after the second child was born that I finally moved in again with the woman.
[20:16] And why, I'm sorry, how old were you when your second child was born?
[20:21] Let's see, she's six now, so 23, 23 around there.
[20:28] Got it, okay.
[20:32] Right, so eventually we moved back in together. So at this point we have, of course, a toddler. I guess she would have been two or three. And then a newborn. We've moved from that place a couple months later to a different place, maybe 20 minutes away. and then not long after my second child was born the third was conceived third and last, and then kind of more of the same until that child was born, I'm trying to think if there were any breakup periods in between there. And I can't think of any. I think there was a long stretch there where we weren't together.
[21:32] And was she staying home with the kids?
[21:35] Yes. These were the years where she, well, there was a brief stint of work from time to time. I think either cleaning houses or at Subway, but it was never any.
[21:49] And who took care of your kids when she was doing that?
[21:51] Right. so that would have been her sister well her not really biological sister but I guess step whatever you want to call it and why did she get her up, what she probably would have told me and probably is the correct answer is that she didn't want to just stay home she wanted to get back to work socialize that kind of thing okay, and then oh yeah and then uh so context again we were not living in that same place but a different place 20 minutes away um i was working full-time she was staying home um now for full disclosure um i, was cheating on her uh let's just say the whole time because um i can't remember specific dates the whole time meaning like just the whole time you've been together, there may have been like at the beginning of when we got back together each time i might have been like you know on this time i'm gonna not do it and then inevitably i would um honestly Stefan it comes back to uh my dick i just i couldn't control myself um so right i mean no sorry, sure sorry i mean you i was.
[23:11] At home staring at you you didn't cheat on her right so you could definitely control it. Calepsi, you can't control. Penis can't.
[23:23] So sorry i okay let me replace that on.
[23:25] Your on the mother of your two or three children with women who are happy to cheat on you despite the fact that you have a wife and kids or a girlfriend and kids.
[23:34] Uh one of them knew um the i don't think i would have told this was mostly online stuff i again there was no there might there might have been one or two physical times in that whole period but it was always like masturbation fantasies right exactly yeah that's a great way to put it um but the one of them was kind of in person i mean we never we never had sex but um that was only because i didn't have the opportunity to um so that doesn't really count so all of these women thought you were single that that one that i'm talking about just now that one knew that one knew so and how many women.
[24:14] Did you uh over the course of your relationship from, I guess, 19 to now, how many women did you message back and forth with or flirt with or send nudes to or whatever?
[24:24] Quite a few, Stefan. If we're going off of just all of the interactions, including strictly online, Snapchat, quite a few.
[24:32] Okay, meaning what?
[24:34] Yes, sorry, exactness. At least over 100, but likely a lot more.
[24:39] Okay, got it. So you're like a sex addict?
[24:44] That's a great way to put it.
[24:45] Yes. I mean, I'm not diagnosing you because I'm not a psychologist, but it would seem to me that that's it, right?
[24:51] I would say that that's probably actually empirically true because I did go through sex addiction counseling. I'll be it briefly. And I also went to, which this does exist, if you didn't know, Sex Addict Anonymous. Same structure as AA, but for obvious different reasons.
[25:11] Yeah, okay.
[25:13] Um yeah um so yeah no that's a that's a probably a sorry not probably that is a great way to put it okay so then um but uh let's see so then from there we moved to this place i'm still in um where where i had started we both started out originally so we moved back and we're together for another, six months or so after that. And keep in mind, at this point, we have three kids now. One of which is almost a toddler. One of them is just a baby, and then the other one is an older toddler. So then we break up again. And, Uh, this would have been maybe five years ago, maybe something like that. I think it was five or four or five. Uh, geez, I think it was right before COVID actually as luck would have it. So anyway, um, yeah, we broke up again, uh, for the cheating reason. Again, someone I had messaged, uh, rightfully, uh, in retrospect, uh, messaged my girlfriend and said, Hey, you know, so-and-so is messaging me. Um, so that's, Didn't go over well.
[26:32] So we broke up. And then I ended up moving in with my father. After that, for a couple months. And, you know, during COVID, I didn't really see my kids too much. And this had been my worst break.
[26:52] I won't give you any bullshit, Stef. I was in a bad mental state. And I used COVID as an excuse, but really, I just couldn't drag myself over. I mean, I still did from time to time. I know there was one stretch, for example, it was maybe like three weeks where I didn't go over. Just mentally, I didn't want to go over there. And my ex at the time was very contemptuous, vindictive, and rightfully so. um i i don't i don't think that she was wrong to some degree to be that way towards me but i just didn't want to go there to you know be a be a be an empty shell for my kids because i wouldn't really mentally be in it i would just be the whole time thinking oh my god like you know there she is and she's she hates me and i feel like shit well.
[27:45] I mean so it's kind of a wild thing right so in your message you're like hey my my partner's crazy and irrational and this that and the other right and now like all i can hear is the things that you did wrong so it's kind of a.
[28:03] 100% agree. At the beginning, long ago, before we even got to this part of the story, I should have walked away. She should have walked away. Because I'm the one that wronged her.
[28:12] So, I mean, I'm not justifying the cheating or anything like that, but was she just not touching you? Was there no physical affection, no sex life, or anything?
[28:23] No. There was, but it was basically like, I mean, I would have to initiate every time, and she wouldn't do anything lack of a better term, sexy for me. No lingerie ever. Those kinds of things. So, you know, sex was like the 18th century or 19th century.
[28:46] I had the start to buy back and think about it.
[28:51] I mean, I don't know. Maybe if I was more forward and stuff, I don't mean to gaslight myself, but for me, it didn't work um well motherhood doesn't make.
[29:03] Women feel super sexy so for a while there it's the man's job to initiate but anyway go on.
[29:07] Right um and that's continued just until recently by the way so um that that sorry that was positive the her views towards our sex life right well action towards so um just for future reference when we get there but anyway so back to uh so it was uh covid um so eventually what happened was i think near the end of 2020 uh we got back together i mean i had one of the very rare heart-to-heart sort of moments with my dad although it was mostly just me talking and saying yep yep yep but anyway um i talked to him about it and i agreed that you know i would try one last time to get back together with her even though every time before i had you know screwed around on her but i figured it was for the best interest of the children but also i still i still loved her at the time and i wanted to make things work with us i had feelings that in my mind i'm.
[30:09] Trying to catch you out here i'm just i mean you've been a listener for how long.
[30:13] Uh i want to say 2013 14 maybe yeah sorry earlier i'm.
[30:20] Just hearing the credibility of the show as a whole take a massive nice nosedive but hey that's just the way things are. So you loved her at this point, and you're talking to the guy who defines love as our involuntary response to virtue, if we're virtuous. So how the living hell are you supposed to be able, to feel love for this woman when you're not being virtuous and she's coming back to you and she's having unprotected sex and you guys aren't creating a stable foundation for these poor children, how how is their love tell me what did you love about her what virtues about her did you love what morals did she manifest that you really respected uh i'm willing to do this tell me tell me about the love well.
[31:03] It's stuff i i don't i don't want to defend me from four years ago, because I think me from four years ago was incorrect in the judgment.
[31:10] No, no, you're not answering my question. You said you loved her. I'm asking what you loved about her. And I'm not saying there was nothing to love about her. I'm just curious.
[31:21] Well, there were probably no virtues. I'll be straight up about that. Arguably, she was, is a good mother, but there are...
[31:31] No! Hang on. Hang on. Would a good mother choose you for the father? I mean, I'm sure she's making the best of a bad situation, but she made the bad situation. She chose to have unprotected sex with an unstable guy who was cheating on her constantly with 100-plus women online. The quality of the mother is determined by the man she chooses to be the father.
[32:07] Right okay so if we're not giving her that then i i can't really give her okay.
[32:13] So you didn't love her.
[32:14] I think.
[32:14] I just i.
[32:16] Can't i can't.
[32:17] You know i don't mean to be.
[32:19] Chris rock.
[32:19] But you know get that word out of your mouth right.
[32:22] No i get it right i'm defouling you know the well it's just concept of love but i mean you may have had a.
[32:29] Horniness you may have had an attachment you may have had some codependent like whatever it would be right but.
[32:34] Not luck no you know i think that's a good better way to put it Stef thank you an attachment there was a attachment um, and uh and then you know the best interest of the children that's you know for me i always just thought and it's true obviously to some degree uh sorry what do you mean and.
[32:54] I don't know what best interest of the i don't know what you're referring to here.
[32:57] Like who who's thinking.
[32:58] That Who's not thinking that? What do you mean?
[33:01] For me. So that would be my thought, because then they'd have...
[33:03] Best interest of the children.
[33:04] At home. Right.
[33:06] The hell are you talking about? I mean, you choose this woman. You keep cheating on them. You keep breaking up. You're sad over COVID, so you don't see them. I'm trying to figure out where best interest of the children has ever been central to your thinking. I'm just being frank with you, right? I mean, I'm happy to hear how this is, I just, I don't see it. That doesn't mean it's not there, right?
[33:34] Correct.
[33:36] So help me see how your life has centered around what's best for your children.
[33:43] Well, I would say that up until the point I made that choice, it wasn't. And then I made the choice to have it revolve around them.
[33:51] And sorry, this was how long ago?
[33:55] Uh near the end of 2020 i believe okay.
[33:59] So you've got three kids uh like four or five and down.
[34:06] Uh yeah that's about that's right yeah okay.
[34:08] So then you start to say i better make things about the best interests of the children and what happens then.
[34:16] Right um yes we do get back together um now this was the time when i got into that like the whole sex addict stuff uh saa and i saw a doctor um so i'd really hit the ground running this time and i actually put my money where my mouth is and i didn't cheat on her at all that even online um i might have went on instagram once to look at someone's pictures that was it, um but um what happened that time was i think she was still mad at me or something i don't know but she had been very mean during that stint in the relationship when we were together for a couple months and um i kind of just let it happen because i was like just i guess in her messages to me like be very overtly like rude or demanding of me to do things these are.
[35:10] All your descriptions i want to know what the facts are what would she say.
[35:15] Uh, okay. So maybe let's say, for example, if, um, maybe I like forgot, uh, to do, you know, the garbage, um, or the dishes one time or something like that. And then she would say, you know, like, don't worry, like I'll do the dishes because obviously you have more important things to do, or I'll do the garbage. You know, you were doing something else more important. Uh, that sort of reaction to aggressive. well yes except not a little lot but well no that's.
[35:45] Not super passive aggressive i mean but that's yeah that's okay let's just say that's passive aggressive.
[35:50] All right sure so right that's super.
[35:53] Mean like she's not calling you.
[35:54] An angle or whatever right no uh just that kind of behavior i guess no she's never been overtly like mean or or anything like that it's always this kind of passive passive aggressive, yeah I mean that's just the best word to use so I won't try to come up with other words but things that I guess, so here's what I'm getting at Stef is that I just think she didn't respect me I think her respect towards me by then had been gone and I think even up to this day it's pretty pretty thin right and yes I know obviously I wonder why right so I get it hang on Right.
[36:36] What would she respect about you? And again, I'm asking this question, not because I'm saying there's nothing to respect. I just want to understand what would she respect about you?
[36:46] I would think first and foremost would be that I'm actively trying to be there for my kids. At that point, obviously, before.
[36:57] But you were way less than 50-50 with them, right? You would see them a couple of times a week at best, right?
[37:02] Right. Right.
[37:03] And how long would you see them for?
[37:07] I would have come over for a couple hours, maybe occasionally, I would say the night if she went out or something.
[37:13] Okay, so you're seeing your kids sort of six, eight hours a week, correct?
[37:18] Yeah, that's probably accurate.
[37:20] Okay, so she's got them the remaining 6.7 days.
[37:26] Sure, exactly, yeah.
[37:27] Okay, so you're like 10%. So how is that actively trying to be there for your kids if you're only seeing them 10% of the time?
[37:35] Sorry, I meant like after, once we got back together, then we were living together. Sorry, I forgot to mention that and clarify on that point.
[37:41] Okay, so then when you're living together, you're actively trying to be there for your kids, and what does that look like?
[37:46] Well playing with them uh obviously taking care of them and going out with them i mean we would do a lot of things together me and her and the kids as a family um so that that would be the main thing it was just me trying to give them you know the family life uh with mom and dad and, and how were your kids with you after.
[38:03] Some fairly lengthy absences like over covid you'd see them sometimes once every three weeks right.
[38:09] So how um how.
[38:12] Were your kids with you uh after that interruption or i guess for your younger kids non-existent or barely existent relationship.
[38:21] Right uh the two youngest uh didn't seem to have any effect i think because they were so young, um like i'm sure i'm wrong about that uh clinically but anyway uh but the the oldest one did certainly have a kind of like a no I don't want daddy just mummy sort of mentality and to give like an specific example, maybe like at night time she wouldn't want a hug and kiss from me but she would from mom and, that would be it I think and that cleared up I think.
[38:57] Sorry maybe not yet because sorry we were only back together this time for a couple months And then there was a blow-up scenario. So what had happened was I was very tense, holding in a lot of anger at her. One morning, I was getting our oldest ready for school. uh the catalyst of my outburst was something i think it was i was trying to dress our daughter up one way for school and uh my girlfriend at the time was kind of demanding she wear something else, um i put a daughter in the car and i can't remember exactly what had happened she, was fighting me about something um maybe uh she just didn't want to go in the car i can't exactly remember um and then i just kind of lost it sorry i just lost it i i kicked the car really hard i i screamed at the top of my lungs like i was just very very mad um and uh my girlfriend heard she came down my daughter was crying of course sorry you kicked you.
[40:08] Kicked because your daughter didn't want to get in the car, you kicked the door and screamed at the top of your lungs?
[40:14] Yes. No, I understand. I was acting like a child myself.
[40:19] No, no, that's a gross insult to children.
[40:22] Sorry, I'm sorry. I was acting like how people view children who are upset. How the popular culture thinks.
[40:32] Yeah, you were having a terrifying rage tantrum right in front of your child.
[40:36] Sorry, and that wasn't the, well, I don't know from anyone else's perspective, but from my perspective, the worst part of it was then I, when uh when my girlfriend came out to console the daughter i saw her and i got in the car and i drove away but then i i did stop um like halfway down the road and i was like okay i can't do that because that's just gonna make things even worse eventually like that that's when i calmed down, and then uh yeah so suffice to say after that instance um i guess it's not suffice to say but my decision ended up being to just leave um because.
[41:09] To leave i don't know what that means.
[41:11] To leave the house to leave the family.
[41:13] Oh so after you uh you rage quit the family.
[41:19] So my my thinking at the time was that obviously my girlfriend would want me to leave that she didn't want to break up because of that instance so i i uh i i uh was ahead of the curve in my mind i guess.
[41:31] Okay and then i'm sorry how long ago was this so.
[41:38] This would have been early 2021 yeah.
[41:43] Okay so your your whole resolution to be be there for your kids lasted less than a fucking year.
[41:48] Uh significantly yes.
[41:51] Okay i mean why didn't you reference that, to to be there for your kids to do what's right by your kids why didn't you reference that rather than kicking the car and screaming why didn't you reference that rather than just driving off why didn't you reference that rather than deciding to leave why didn't you say well geez if i have a problem with my temper um i better go get some anger management i better go get some therapy rather than just fucking bail after wooing your eldest child back into your confidence and saying no no daddy's going to be here you should you should attach with me again and then pull it off right why wouldn't you just go to therapy or get anger management or or you know i mean there's ways to deal with a bad temper right right.
[42:36] No i did go to the anger management after actually.
[42:38] No no before you decide to leave the family right.
[42:45] I mean i think Stef honest answer is probably that's what i wanted to do.
[42:53] So we're back to selfish.
[43:00] I think yeah okay.
[43:01] I'm just just want to make sure i'm tracking the situation.
[43:04] Oh i mean i i haven't i haven't spoken to you about this instance yet so i i never really had a chance to, get someone's opinion who was you know uh worth hearing the opinion of i guess let's say about these kinds of things so i never really thought about it that way but based on what you're saying yeah i mean that was a selfish act because i i didn't fight for i didn't i didn't even talk to about it. I didn't say, listen, I know I just blew up, but I want to make this work. I don't even think I tried that. Maybe I sent a message, but you know.
[43:34] Okay, so you wanted to bail. Now, why did you want to bail?
[43:39] Because I don't like her. I don't like living with her. We're basically diametrically opposed on most things. I can know that's vague. Let's say, I mean, well I'm trying to think of something concrete because it's like everything right I'm just trying to pinpoint like one thing so you know well not strictly vague to children but you know like politically, socially you know she's very like, progressive in her beliefs, although, I think she just kind of follows the herd sort of Well.
[44:33] Hang on, bro. Oh my god. So why are women big government? And especially single moms, right? Because she's half been a single mom, right? Right. So why are single moms big government? Because they don't have a man they can trust. So complaining that she's liberal when you keep abandoning the family is complaining about an effect that you are largely responsible for creating. She's no choice but to rely on the government because she can't rely on you.
[45:09] Right.
[45:11] Happily married women tend to be in small government. So it's a little tough to blame her for that, in my opinion.
[45:21] Right.
[45:23] Well, what else?
[45:24] Sure. No, no, for sure. you know she's more of a like a social person i'm more of an uh of uh an introvert um.
[45:37] Well maybe you're an introvert or maybe you just have a bad conscience and that distances you from people because you got secrets to hide right.
[45:47] Right um that's.
[45:49] Possible if you're currently managing you know six or ten women on rotation and your dating apps, it's a little tough to just relax and chat with people, right?
[46:00] I never thought of it that way. I mean, the way that I... Sorry, I was going to say on that point, my justification or my thoughts on it are just that I'm just kind of... I just kind of distance myself from people just because I feel like everyone's just, supporting kind of the way that the world is now and i know it sounds silly i guess saying it out loud but that's sort of my um i don't want to go as far to say i think everyone's stupid but kind of like everyone i guess i just assume that everyone i see you feel superior to.
[46:39] People because they're npcs and normies right.
[46:42] Yeah exactly right but they're probably not competing.
[46:45] With their wives on their wives or girlfriends or the mothers of the children with you know 100 plus women so i mean i get what you're saying so this this is vanity right that i'm.
[46:56] Superior even.
[46:57] Though i can't run a relationship or be a good father in a consistent way to save my life.
[47:03] So to at this point because i've i went over most of the history i just well let's wait to the end i guess so i'll keep going with the story um so sorry i know i'm jumping ahead because you're asking about how we're not related, how we butt heads basically ideologically or in our beliefs. She's very much, when it comes to parents, I mean, I'm more so now, I'm a lot more on board with the whole peaceful parenting thing now. Now I wasn't, like the time we're still talking about, like back in early 2021, let's say.
[47:39] So by then you'd been listening to me for sort of eight plus years, but you were still not down on peaceful parenting. Did you spank your children?
[47:46] Sorry, I just want to clarify that I wasn't really listening too much about that stuff at that time. It was only the last maybe year or so, like right now.
[47:55] Okay.
[47:56] The last year that I'm...
[47:57] So did you hit your children?
[47:58] I did, Stef, yes.
[47:59] Okay. And how often would you hit them and how would you hit them?
[48:04] Um so so back then let's say uh up until i stopped doing it so that was you know recently this last year but um probably, i want to be fair and i don't want to like underplay my my involvement here so let's say maybe once every two days oh.
[48:32] My gosh really.
[48:34] Well like i said i don't i don't want to make it sound like i'm i was better than i was so i just if i'm estimating hang.
[48:40] On hang on so at what age did your children have to be before you i assume you didn't hit the babies right or did you.
[48:48] I told myself i wasn't going to lie so i won't um i i did uh my my oldest um when i when she was very young um, Yes, I did.
[49:04] Very young being how old?
[49:07] A couple months.
[49:11] So you hit your baby?
[49:13] I did, Stef, yes.
[49:14] And was this true for all three of your children?
[49:19] I think so, yes.
[49:21] Sorry, what do you mean you think so?
[49:23] I know for two of them, so I would assume yes for the other one. I don't remember any specific instances with her, but Uh, if I did the other two times, I must have.
[49:36] Okay. So if you hit your child every two days, then you're hitting your children about 180 times a year.
[49:49] So i don't know if there was i mean there may not be a bit difference but just in case there is sometimes it might have just been like grabbing the arm you know like don't do that or come here not necessarily a smack physical force right but aggressive yeah no i'm just to be clear, um yes so if i'm right about that estimate then that would be correct yes right okay and your daughter is.
[50:13] How old now.
[50:13] My oldest is eight and a half and then yeah okay so uh.
[50:20] Seven times so you hit her from birth a little after birth to age of seven or so.
[50:26] Uh it i obviously i'm gonna sound like a teller person but when they got older it it i whether it was because i was mellowing out more or just because they could you know they were more likely to tell people i i didn't hit them as is less so as much sorry so um it kind of makes the calculations a bit harder to do but you know okay but if we did if.
[50:49] We did two a day which i know is unfair right so if we did two a day.
[50:53] Yeah times uh seven okay uh.
[50:55] Years then that's 1260 hitings we could cut that down by 400 so maybe 860 because you hit them less as they got older.
[51:04] Right yeah that's that sounds like it makes sense And.
[51:10] Then if you put the other two kids together, you would have hit your kids well over 11, or used physical violence against your kids or physical control or coercion 1,200, 1,300 times.
[51:24] That sounds about right, Stef, based on the math. Yes.
[51:27] All right.
[51:29] It's monstrous. I get it.
[51:31] I don't think you do, to be honest, because you wouldn't be saying, no, no, no, I get it.
[51:38] Right right it sounds like i'm trying to just get past it okay yeah i want to accept that you know so i guess i'm fighting against it to some degree but uh i mean that's what happened no that's no.
[51:55] That's not what happened that's what you chose that's what you chose voluntarily while being exposed for over 10 years to the non-aggression principle that's what you voluntarily chose to do to your babies and toddlers didn't happen.
[52:10] I i think in fairness i really never uh embraced those ideas from you i think when i was embracing on.
[52:21] Aggression principle so you felt that the initiation of the use of force was moral.
[52:28] I don't think I gave it much thought.
[52:31] I didn't say whether you gave it. What did I say? What did I say? Did I say you gave it much thought? What was my actual words?
[52:38] You said that I think it was moral.
[52:41] No. I said you were exposed to the ideas.
[52:45] Right.
[52:49] Now, once you're exposed to the ideas, you have 100% responsibility. No excuses. Now, you can say, well, but I didn't listen to that part so much, blah, blah, blah, blah. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Because you knew that I did shows about parenting, right?
[53:13] I must have, yes.
[53:15] You knew. I mean, half my feed sometimes, right?
[53:19] Right.
[53:21] So you voluntarily chose to avoid, according to your report, right? You voluntarily chose to avoid relationships and parenting while having a terrible relationship with the mother of your children and hitting your babies. That's a choice.
[53:42] Right.
[53:44] So, the question is, why? if you are having exposure to non-violent approaches to life non-aggression principle and so on the question then becomes, why did you assuming you're telling me the truth why did you steadfastly avoid, picking up any books on parenting listening to any of my shows on parenting parenting, doing a call-in, whatever could have helped back then. And I say this, like, I don't mean like, well, why the hell?
[54:27] I mean, like, I'm genuinely curious. Like, why? Why would you avoid that?
[54:37] I'm trying to, I want to give you an answer that's not, I don't know. So I'm, I'm scraping my brains to come up with what my thinking would have been. I mean, obviously i wasn't i wasn't thinking i was.
[54:55] I wasn't thinking is not an answer because you can't claim that you were listening to a philosophy show for over a decade while also avoiding thought right that doesn't make any sense right.
[55:05] Well i i think what i was kind of doing Stef was kind of listening to the shows for entertainment in the sense of like you know Let's listen to how dysfunctional these people are.
[55:20] Right?
[55:20] Right.
[55:21] Your entertainment was specifically about thought. So you can't say you weren't thinking. People who don't think at all don't listen to my show. So what else?
[55:37] Um... I must have thought I could figure it all out myself.
[55:45] Well, okay. But you didn't, so, right?
[55:49] Right.
[55:50] So given that you weren't figuring it all out yourself, you would have revisited that opinion. right if i if i'm driving and i think i don't need the gps right i i'll i'll get there i don't need the gps right and then i get my ass lost what do i do turn on the gps.
[56:10] Right right well just to like to put it in an example of at the time right so what i did was okay i had this blow out i'm gonna leave the family i'm gonna do anger management i'm gonna get my own place and then And I'll have the kids.
[56:26] No, but that's years after you were hitting your baby.
[56:28] The original. Right. Okay.
[56:30] So let's go back.
[56:31] Okay. All right.
[56:36] You keep hitting your babies. You're listening to the non-progression principal guy who talks about parenting. And you studiously avoid everything I'm talking about. And again, just back to that question. Why?
[56:51] Well, could it be that at the time, I just... I heard something like peaceful parenting or NAP and I didn't even think about like, oh, I should apply this to my kids. I didn't even think about it.
[57:04] Only if your brain did. Right? A philosopher I hugely respect talks about parenting, but there's no way that that would have anything to do with how I'm parenting. I mean, that's not an answer, right?
[57:22] I mean, I really, I hear what you're saying, but at the time, I really don't think I was listening to enough of your shows, or at least the ones where you talk about these things that I would have been like, hmm, that's...
[57:36] Right? So I know how this stuff works, right? There's a feed, right? And down comes the shows, right?
[57:43] Right. Okay.
[57:46] And how many hundreds of shows on parenting and interviews with experts, even before the Peaceful Parenting book, right? How many hundreds of shows did I do on parenting? So you see the feeds coming down, right? Oh, here's a show. Here's another show. Here's a title. Oh, here's a category. Oh, here's another show. And you must have avoided clicking on anything to do with parenting, right?
[58:14] Right. right okay so what so probably i would have just thought it was boring.
[58:23] Well that's not an answer, that's an avoidance right.
[58:33] Maybe i uh, i just didn't care i guess stuff but i didn't care about No.
[58:44] Because if you didn't care, you'd listen to them for entertainment. You see, everything you're saying is false. If you just found what I'm saying is entertaining, right? Then why would you avoid the entertaining stuff I was saying about parenting? Everything is just empty entertainment. Oh, shit, I can't listen to that, right?
[59:08] Well, to me, maybe if I heard about it, I would start feeling guilty because these are the things I should be doing and I'm not doing them. I'm doing the opposite. So if I'm trying to entertain myself, why would I listen to something that's going to make me feel shitty and guilty?
[59:25] Okay, so you knew that if you're, I assume that you knew that if you listen to me, you're going to feel bad.
[59:34] I think I would have, yes.
[59:36] Okay, so you were avoiding what I was talking about with regards to parenting because you were avoiding feeling bad, right?
[59:53] That must have been it, I suppose.
[59:57] Okay, we're getting all kinds of foggy.
[59:59] I'm not trying to give you a foggy answer.
[1:00:01] But you are giving me a foggy answer, right?
[1:00:03] I try not to connect too much with who I was back then because none of this makes sense to me in retrospect, the way I acted, right? Like who I am now, I would have done things completely different. I know everybody says that, so maybe that's not a good answer, But I'm struggling to think, why not? All I can think of is that I just didn't seek anything out because I thought I was, every time I did something, every time I hit my kid, I just told myself, you know, next time I won't do it. This was the last time.
[1:00:36] Oh, sorry. So every time you hit your children, you said, I'm not going to do it again?
[1:00:46] I, yeah, yes.
[1:00:48] So then you knew it was wrong.
[1:00:51] Of course.
[1:00:52] I just was checking because some people justify it, right?
[1:00:55] No, no, no. I might have been kind of on board with spanking maybe back then, but now I'm completely, for what it's worth, obviously, no one would know now about me.
[1:01:04] But not back then.
[1:01:05] Yeah, but I'm just saying. But no, obviously, even back then, I knew it was wrong. I mean, certainly at least legally. Yeah, I guess... I wasn't living a moral life.
[1:01:23] Wow. Again, that's just a cope, right? That doesn't actually, um, answer anything. So you knew it was wrong and you were really into a moral philosopher who talked about peaceful parenting and you avoided all the shows that would have helped.
[1:01:44] Okay.
[1:01:45] Why?
[1:02:00] Well the only thing i can think of i guess would be that i that i didn't think i was doing anything wrong at the time well.
[1:02:06] I thought you said.
[1:02:07] That you promised yourself you were going to stop.
[1:02:08] Every time you did.
[1:02:09] It so i'm not quite sure all right So, then maybe the answer is that I figured I could just hide it. What? So, if I couldn't control my actions...
[1:02:31] No, no, but how did you... First of all, you could control your actions because you didn't hit your kids in public, right?
[1:02:40] Right.
[1:02:40] So you could absolutely control your actions. Agreed?
[1:02:46] That's right.
[1:02:46] Okay. You could control your actions. And when it comes to hiding it, I mean, you didn't want to be doing it because afterwards you'd say, I shouldn't do this. I want to stop. So if you have a resource, I mean, I'm a free call in, right?
[1:03:09] Uh-huh.
[1:03:10] You've got enough time to message all the females in the known universe, right? So why did you avoid the free help to stop hitting your children?
[1:03:29] I mean i i i don't know Stef um what i can say is that i did call in, back when my my oldest was young but i didn't talk about this stuff i i hit it well that's even worse right right because then we ended up talking about call.
[1:03:47] With me knowing you were hitting your children, and you did not ask how to stop.
[1:03:57] Why not?
[1:04:06] I mean, probably at the time, one of my fears was probably, like, if somehow someone finds out who i am you know there's going to be legal repercussions of course and in my mind it was.
[1:04:18] Okay so if that's the issue then you just listen to the podcasts.
[1:04:28] I think honestly seth i i i guess i was just no sorry i was just being selfish.
[1:04:36] Well but these negative pejoratives don't explain anything it's sort of saying why did i do wrong because i was selfish selfish is just another word for wrong it doesn't explain anything.
[1:05:02] I mean all these things i've told you they they feel like the answers to me so i'm not.
[1:05:08] No because when the answer hits you you'll feel it you'll have an emotion you've no particular i mean i can hear some wobble in your voice but that's just nervousness at the exposure, right?
[1:05:21] True. But I'm... Am I able to ask if you have any thoughts?
[1:05:35] I mean, I know the answer, but I don't know in particular the cause of the answer. So the reason that you avoided getting help with your violence towards your children is because you wanted to keep being violent towards your children. You preferred that. You wanted that. Why did you hit your children and not get help? Because you wanted to keep hitting your children. Now, why you wanted to keep hitting your children, I mean, that's a simple answer, right? Then the question is, well, why did you want to keep hitting your children?
[1:06:04] Okay, well, that sheds a lot of light for me because, yeah, so that's correct.
[1:06:18] Remind me of how you were disciplined as a kid.
[1:06:23] Well, I wasn't beaten myself maybe once in a while, but my father was very aggressive. of so just kind of yelling and fear basically you know do this you better you know you better do this right now when you say.
[1:06:37] Beaten i'm not sure what that relationship is to spanked.
[1:06:42] Oh well well spanking of course you know on the on the buttocks and then beating i would consider like i don't know smacking in the face or okay how often were you spanked oh i don't know maybe, as far as i can remember like 10 times the entire childhood maybe.
[1:07:02] Okay so you were you were barely spanked and only beaten say twice right.
[1:07:08] I don't even know if i was beaten by my dad it was always just the the fear like the physical aggression the yelling so.
[1:07:14] You were you were barely hit as a kid right, once every year or so that's accurate okay but your father was verbally aggressive is that right like what would he say that would be verbally aggressive.
[1:07:28] Um maybe i i don't know let's say if i did something wrong um like i'm trying to think of an example now, i think i'm trying to remember what it exactly would have set him off because, it feels like it wouldn't have been much because it isn't much these days but um, i don't know maybe talking back let's say probably something like talking back.
[1:08:01] Probably would have been about him or you have a different.
[1:08:03] Perspective yeah yeah now that i said that actually that was probably most of them um.
[1:08:07] Okay yeah maybe you would disagree with your father they always say talking back like all conversations are talking back right but there's a pejorative right it's like when parents say fix your attitude it's like well i'm sort of surly because you keep telling me to fix my attitude so all conversations are talking back right i talk you talk back you talk i talk back it's all talking back but what he meant was disagreeing with him, okay so if you would disagree with him what would he say just.
[1:08:34] Raise his voice and get mad and And I mean, without knowing the exact example, but like maybe just like. Maybe just like as simple as like shut up or something like that. Like very angrily, very aggressively. And then he would go back on his tour out about whatever it would be. I don't know exactly. Because like I said, it was probably so inconsequential looking back that I don't even remember what it would have been now.
[1:09:03] OK, so he told you to shut up and then just continue his rant.
[1:09:07] Yeah okay.
[1:09:08] Did he call you names stupid selfish mean dumb.
[1:09:12] Uh maybe once in a while like like stupid or are you stupid something like that but i don't think he was ever like like would just randomly like call me like oh you're an idiot or you are stupid or what.
[1:09:26] About Not your mother.
[1:09:30] Yeah, no. I think similar, not in the aggressiveness, but if you were to disrespect her, I think it would be the same kind of reaction.
[1:09:40] What does disrespect her mean?
[1:09:42] I'm sorry. Yeah, I know that. So, well, similar thing, maybe talking back in terms of, like, you know, she would say this. Yeah. And then I would say, you know, maybe something snark you back. It might have been something like... anyway um but yeah so she wouldn't be as aggressive as yelly or at least maybe just because she was a woman it wasn't as you know scary to me but um very similar to my dad.
[1:10:08] Okay, so both of your parents are aggressive, and have they ever acknowledged that they were too aggressive as parents, or ever made apologies, or restitution, or anything like that?
[1:10:21] No, not really. The only sorry, if I ever got a sorry, and I've been talking, tried to talk to them recently, like last year about this, and basically, I only get sorry but, right? Sorry but, you know.
[1:10:35] Okay, so everything.
[1:10:36] A non-sorry.
[1:10:36] Before the butt you can get rid of okay so i mean you have something on your conscience i don't know what it is but you have something on your conscience that's causing you to hit babies i don't know what you weren't hit much and you were verbally aggressed against but it was you know it was like shut up or whatever it wasn't like you know um i wish you'd never been born or you know i hate you or like it wasn't anything as far as i can tell so there's something that's weighing you down and triggering your aggression i don't know what it is i don't know what it is i was struck when you said, well, she was 17 and I was 19, but we didn't get together till later. Well, maybe you did. And maybe there was illegal stuff going on there. You don't have to tell me. You don't have to tell me, of course. But there's something that's going on that is weighing down your conscience that's outside of your childhood from what I can see. Because the way that you behave around your children is so ugly that, at least in terms of the hitting, that I can't see the causal chain with your childhood, if that makes sense.
[1:11:34] And, you know, maybe I'm missing something or maybe there's information I don't have, which is fine. I don't want you to put yourself in any horrible situation here, but I'm just telling you, whatever that thing is that you're not telling me, that's probably the cause.
[1:11:49] Right so um no it's nothing um just a second i'm just walking past some people here um good timing, i didn't want to start talking about legal this no it's it's nothing um it's nothing, legal like i didn't i i don't mind talking about like i i that that woman uh even if she was 17 i mean it's legal in where i live okay so i was only 19 i was like i was 30 years old so uh no that's not it um i can't think of anything.
[1:12:22] Well there's something.
[1:12:23] That's given you.
[1:12:24] This sexual compulsion right i mean did you were you molested as a child did you have really early exposure to pornography was there.
[1:12:31] Yes something that yes up.
[1:12:32] Your sexuality that way.
[1:12:33] It was the pornography well yeah i'm not trying to like this is the golden answer but i if i had to pinpoint one thing i would say that would be the main thing and how old when you.
[1:12:46] Got exposed to that.
[1:12:47] Uh so probably both of these things happen around the same time which would have been uh online pornography and uh like uh i explicit video like they weren't the stuff that's available on cable back in the day like just music channels like music videos like with the skimpy dancers and stuff okay.
[1:13:14] You haven't answered my question though.
[1:13:16] Sorry uh sorry so those happened around the same time which was sorry i was getting to that part uh i just want to make sure you do what i was talking about so uh probably when i was six okay so when.
[1:13:29] You were six you were watching skimpy empty videos.
[1:13:33] Basically. Yeah, exactly.
[1:13:34] Okay, so that's not pornography.
[1:13:39] Okay.
[1:13:40] So I'm asking about the pornography.
[1:13:44] Okay. Then in terms of actual pornography, um, trying to think the first time i saw no it doesn't i just roughly i.
[1:13:58] I don't need the.
[1:13:59] Very first time i just when did you i just haven't thought about it before so you're making me think uh uh probably 10 or 11 then okay.
[1:14:07] And how did you find out about it or get access to it.
[1:14:12] Uh internet was probably the first time no no i had to but how.
[1:14:19] Did you know to even look for it, did some a friend tell you or.
[1:14:27] Uh actually if we're going back actually sorry i just unlocked a memory um my dad had a photo album and i think he had at least one pornographic picture in it which i would have seen, when i was again probably back six or so or younger, you mean a nude.
[1:14:46] Like a playboy thing or a.
[1:14:48] Top i i think what it was was something that because he hid it behind other pictures right i remember it's funny that it's not funny but that i remember this so vividly it's probably a big issue with my parents that's probably why i remember it but anyway um yeah he i think it was from uh something he had saved from something he took himself i think but it was pornographic in nature it was like a naked woman's bottom or something like that, okay um and.
[1:15:17] Um so but you don't remember how you came across pornography on the internet when you were 10.
[1:15:22] Well uh i would have searched for it but then of course that begs question what did i know to search for it right um, i'm trying to not give non-answers but the only thing i can think of is like you know young guys all together and someone just brings up you know foods or you know this or that then you just think oh i'm gonna look that up.
[1:15:49] Okay and did your parents ever talk to you about the dangers of the internet and the dangers of this kind of material particularly to young minds.
[1:15:58] No okay.
[1:16:00] So they were careless very careless and negligent in their protection of you.
[1:16:07] Yeah um i i can't remember really having a serious conversation of sitting down and talking about that or really anything to be honest with you okay, um
[1:16:24] Remind me what your dating experience was before you were 19.
[1:16:29] Uh there was um there was one other woman who i met online who i dated for a couple months the year before I met the mother of my children, and that was about it.
[1:16:40] You didn't date until you were 18?
[1:16:42] Yeah. I'm a lack of wanting to, but we're trying. A whole lot of masturbation, Stef.
[1:16:52] Okay. Okay. And your parents didn't notice that you weren't dating?
[1:17:00] Well, my last year of high school, my dad was working across the country. sorry the other side of the country so but even if he was there i doubt he would have noticed but.
[1:17:11] I mean people bring up this distant shit like you and i aren't calling from either like wherever you are right i mean it doesn't matter if someone's away especially with technology these days right or at least right relatively recently okay okay so your mother nor your father seemed to care that you weren't uh dating in your teens no okay why do you think they didn't care.
[1:17:37] Um my my theory about it now is that like for both of them they just had so much their own problems between the two of them uh unresolved uh you know maybe hidden animosity whatever that they just didn't have they didn't give enough thought to to me for that matter but, and there you go they were.
[1:17:59] Selfish they were focused on their own problems.
[1:18:02] Rather than.
[1:18:03] What was best for you sorry do you have siblings.
[1:18:06] Yes i do one full and then two half okay.
[1:18:10] So they abandoned parenting because they had marital problems.
[1:18:14] I have to say that that would i mean i'll probably never find out the truth but that's that would be my guess okay so.
[1:18:23] Your parents are fairly relentlessly aggressive they're incredibly negligent they hit you occasionally oh what's the plus of having them in your life and they've also never accepted real responsibility apologized and made restitution so what's the plus of having them in your life.
[1:18:40] Oh i i don't have my father in my life i uh i don't think i followed i don't know if i followed whatever the procedure is for the uh the whole defooing thing but i i i cut him out of my life i just stopped talking to him.
[1:18:52] And when was that.
[1:18:52] Um a couple months ago um okay.
[1:18:56] So what about earlier right i mean you've listened to my show.
[1:18:59] Right where i say sure you don't have to have.
[1:19:01] Abusive people in your life if they're unapologetic. You don't have to have unapologetically abusive people in your life, and you've been listening to this since you were 20 or so. And so what was the plus for that decade?
[1:19:17] Uh for my mother she's always i'll start with my mother because there's something there so for her for her it's she's always been kind of around to help uh whether financially with us like me and my ex if we're in a hard time financially she would help maybe she'd come to help watch the kids um and then just in general i just i was still in that mindset of oh you know it's it's the holidays you need to have a family you know thanksgiving and christmas you know like you can't not have that right oh so you had a mentality about it, uh and she gave you money in time i guess yeah okay i yeah exactly and my dad ever did she.
[1:19:57] Ever give you any advice about the instability with your girlfriend.
[1:20:00] Uh no in fact uh annoyingly she gave me advice post breakup last week which really annoyed me because when i asked her she said something like this stuff she said oh it's not really my place i'm like what, my whole family would never understand like any of this like how a family should operate i mean it's like everyone thinks it's free-for-all i mean it's it's so i'm sorry it's crazy never understand i don't well if you were to try to talk to him be like oh did you did you do this for him did you parent him that you they would just be like uh i fed him you know i i was there I had a roof over his head. I did the best I could with the knowledge I had. I've heard that many times over the last few months.
[1:20:45] Oh, yeah. So they make excuses like every guilty conscience NPC, right?
[1:20:50] Mm-hmm.
[1:20:50] Okay.
[1:20:51] Yeah.
[1:20:51] As to you.
[1:20:52] So.
[1:20:54] As to you.
[1:20:56] In what specific way I'm on.
[1:20:57] So, because when you listen back to this, you'll hear all of the excuses that you're making regarding your parenting. So, why did you want to keep hitting your babies and toddlers?
[1:21:13] Because I kept wanting to do that.
[1:21:15] Yeah, that's a tautology, but why? Right, so if somebody's an alcoholic, say, well, why did you keep drinking?
[1:21:22] Well, because I preferred keeping drinking. I chose to keep drinking, and then the question is why. Oh, I was self-medicating, intense anxiety, and depression because I was avoiding enough knowledge. There's something about that, right? Sorry, I have an answer to that. I mean, you must have taken some satisfaction or had a positive experience of hitting your babies and toddlers. okay like we don't act randomly right so so your babies and toddlers either removed a bad feeling or provided a good feeling or both right because you were hedonistic right and hedonists pursue pleasure and avoid pain so it must mean if you chose to keep hitting your children by avoiding knowledge from me or others that you were hitting your children in order to avoid a bad feeling or achieve a good feeling or both. So how did you feel when you hit your children?
[1:22:15] So this is what I think was going on. I had a lot of pent-up anger, and I was taking it out on them as an outlet to release that anger that I was feeling.
[1:22:27] That's a sort of psychological theory. How did you feel? Did you feel joy? Did you feel satisfaction? Did you feel power? did you feel happiness did you feel a numb which was better than feeling bad like there has to be something in your emotions or your sensations or your feelings that was positive for you in hitting your children.
[1:22:50] Uh perhaps like i don't know if this is the.
[1:22:54] Answer but i know i know i know you were there don't perhaps me you did it a thousand plus times, What did you? You raise your hands, you whack your baby, you whack your toddler. What do you feel? And it has to feel good, right? It has to feel better than not doing it, otherwise you wouldn't do it. Like, you didn't have access to principles, so you were just following the pressure. You didn't have access to moral principles, so you were just following pleasure, right?
[1:23:27] The two words that come to mind are power and control.
[1:23:33] Okay, you felt power and control. Okay.
[1:23:37] Right. Like, this would almost certainly only ever happen if they were doing something I didn't want them to do. I think exclusively.
[1:23:45] Well no that's bullshit man don't fucking do that to me Jesus Christ you hit a baby, like you mean if the baby was crying.
[1:23:57] Right I'm not saying it's logical I'm just saying that's.
[1:24:03] Okay so it's not doing something that you didn't want them to do I mean I guess sorry you know what okay so your baby's crying and you hit the baby and does that stop the baby crying.
[1:24:14] Of course not.
[1:24:15] Okay, so it wasn't because the babies were doing something you didn't want them to do, because hitting a crying baby makes the baby cry more.
[1:24:25] Right.
[1:24:26] Okay. So you wanted to create suffering in your babies and toddlers because it gave you a sense of power?
[1:24:38] Well, I know it didn't make me happy.
[1:24:41] Well, it must have been something positive, otherwise you wouldn't do it. because you weren't doing things based on principles, right? So it must have been something positive or you wouldn't have done it.
[1:24:50] But that's what I'm saying. Like, I feel like it was, sorry, the way I'm remembering it is that I had so much anger that I just wanted to do something. And I knew that I could get away with doing that. And if I did it to someone else, like an adult, obviously, I couldn't.
[1:25:10] Yeah, they can hit back. Babies can't hit back. Okay.
[1:25:12] That's what I was trying to get at.
[1:25:14] So what do you mean by full of anger? Like you would feel a lot of anger and then you'd feel better if you hit your babies and toddlers. Like it would relieve what? What's the emotion that it was trying to relieve or how would you feel on hitting them? Like how did that feel? I don't quite. Saying I was full of anger is not really. Did it make you feel better? Did it make you feel less angry? I'm trying to, like, did you say, well, I'll replace my anger with guilt and that way I'm less dangerous. Oh, I don't know. Something like, like, what does that mean? I'm full of anger. You hit your kids. And then how does that make things better for you? I don't mean logically. I just mean emotionally.
[1:25:56] Sure. Okay. Okay. um oh uh maybe it's sorry i know it's i haven't given this enough thought that's why to me it's kind of like it's just it's more about experiencing.
[1:26:09] The feelings but okay.
[1:26:10] I'm not trying to no i'm okay so it would be it would have been i don't know what to do so this is something to do this is this is an action that i can take what.
[1:26:22] Happens if you feel this i don't know what to do and don't hit your children, what happens? Like, what happens to you emotionally if you don't hit your children or your babies? What happens to you emotionally if you feel I don't know what to do, you feel sudden panic, anxiety, or whatever, so what happens if you don't hit your kids?
[1:26:44] Well, like I was saying, I just would get angry because I don't want them to do whatever is happening, or I want them to stop doing everything.
[1:26:51] What happens if you don't hit your kids? What happens to you emotionally if you don't hit your kids? I know the answer to this one.
[1:26:59] Oh, sorry, me emotionally.
[1:27:01] Yeah, what happens? So you're feeling tense, or you're angry at your kids, or you're angry at something. What happens if you don't hit your kid? What happens to your emotions?
[1:27:10] I would feel like I'm a failure, like I'm not parenting correctly.
[1:27:17] Okay.
[1:27:18] What about your feelings?
[1:27:20] What would happen to your feelings? Like, what would you do emotionally? What would happen to you emotionally if you didn't hit your kids?
[1:27:28] Wait, I would be happy, of course, that I'm not hitting my kids.
[1:27:31] No, because as a hedonist, you'd be pursuing happiness. What would happen if you didn't hit your kids when you were upset? You were avoiding something, right? What were you...
[1:27:50] I see what you mean. Okay. Well, in some instances, how this would have happened is if I'm trying to not involve the mother. Instead of asking her for help, I would just do what I did.
[1:28:11] Okay. What happens if you don't hit your kids? What happens to your emotions? What happens to you emotionally if you don't hit your kids?
[1:28:21] I honestly i can't i can't i can't think of the answer Stefan.
[1:28:24] I could tell you if i haven't given it already tell you the answer please do you would have burst into tears, you would have sopped uncontrollably waves of agony and sadness and horror would have hit you, the isolation and all of the accumulated fear of your aggressive parents would have all been uncorked at your chest and you would have fallen to the ground in tears. Because you would have broken the principle of using aggression against children, which meant you would have taken a moral stand against your parents.
[1:29:19] Yeah were.
[1:29:20] You ever aggressive with your siblings when you were a kid.
[1:29:25] Uh sometimes it was just i only grew up with my um with my immediate like my actual brother the other half brothers are older so uh i would be aggressive with him like if he was teasing me i would resort to that that's right was he younger or older older uh two years i'm the youngest, and.
[1:29:45] So you guys would like throw hands at each other or would you hit or like what would happen.
[1:29:50] Maybe i mean like that scenario would normally be something like he would be teasing me oh the big brother sorry that no it's not supposed to be normal so i won't normalize it so he would be teasing me and then i would like lash out because i didn't know what else to do okay.
[1:30:05] And then what do you hit him then he hit you back or what would happen.
[1:30:11] Um i would definitely try to hit him i don't remember if he hit me back but then of course eventually if the parents were around normally they were they would break us up and i don't remember how the conflict resolved i don't know if we were told to say sorry i can't remember now, I just remember having a similar kind of raid when I was a kid.
[1:30:40] Was that regarding your parents or your brother or both or others?
[1:30:45] The times that I can think about it, it would be involving my brother, I guess. Yeah. Like just teasing me. Because I guess, I don't know. it's just i can remember just instances where like i that would get to me and i would just like go ballistic.
[1:31:02] Okay so vulnerability when you have a teasing is a brutal kind of verbal destruction it's it's very much under appreciated just how incredibly abusive teasing is because teasing you know it's got multiple words you know like it could be a woman in a bikini uh shaking her butt it could be a a stripper it could be uh you know a teaser for a movie like so teasing but but but this sort of relentless psychological abuse that often elder siblings will perform is uh incredibly destructive it's incredibly destructive and verbally sadistic to the nth degree and what it teaches you is that you can't have a single shred of vulnerability, because if you have vulnerability then it will be used against you, right right if you show that you care about something then you'll just be teased for it you show you care about it yeah oh he likes it all like all vulnerability all emotional openness is weaponized against you right is that a way to put it.
[1:32:10] That's uh the pinpoint accurate 100 a perfect way to put it, Stef.
[1:32:17] Right. So you had to attack all vulnerability within yourself, otherwise it would be weaponized against you, right?
[1:32:26] Yes.
[1:32:27] So then you hit your children because they're vulnerable, because they're expressing needs and preferences.
[1:32:33] Right.
[1:32:34] In a sense, it's you hitting yourself or attacking yourself. So you're not vulnerable to your brother, is you hitting your children to keep them safe. Don't show emotion, don't show need, don't show preferences.
[1:32:47] You're going to get completely fucked up by a sibling.
[1:32:58] Maybe. I mean, I don't feel like I have the same anger towards my brother. I don't really have those emotions.
[1:33:05] You just told me that as a kid, you felt the same anger, but it was towards your brother. Now, that's fine if you want to change that, but that's what you said. I said, was it towards your brother, towards your parents or someone else? And you said, my brother.
[1:33:25] Oh sorry yes yes when i had those like uh you know we'll call them a tantrum yes um yeah okay the only times i can really remember have.
[1:33:34] You talked to your brother about what happened to you as a kid or how's your relationship with him if there is one.
[1:33:44] Um we can talk but uh we could talk about the family um Sorry, I'll just answer your question. It's okay. The relationship is okay.
[1:33:57] Okay, so have you talked to him about what happened to you as a kid?
[1:34:04] No, I've never thought to be like, you know, hey, brother, you tease me a lot, and I still remember it.
[1:34:12] I mean, really, it's a form of psychological torture, right?
[1:34:15] Right.
[1:34:16] And it's very unfair because, of course, his brain was more developed than yours, right? It's a big difference between 10 and 8 or 12 and 10. when you're a kid.
[1:34:25] Right.
[1:34:26] And your parents let it all happen?
[1:34:30] Well, that's kind of where all of my frustration is pointing towards Stef, is my parents for letting all that stuff happen. I mean, my brother was just a kid at the time, so I'm not...
[1:34:41] Yeah, I mean, he had some responsibility. I mean, he knew he was causing you pain.
[1:34:45] Sure.
[1:34:47] Okay. I mean, he wouldn't have any responsibility with regards to your parents, but he would with regards to you.
[1:34:54] Right.
[1:34:57] Okay, so of the three people who did you the most harm as a child, you're still in contact with two and you just cut the other one off a few months ago. Okay? So why were they in your life as an adult? I guess with your mom, it's some sentimentality. she gave you some money and and some time and so on right that's a pretty cheap price to pay for honesty right um what about your brother uh.
[1:35:34] I guess a similar answer not financially but sentimentality i mean it's my brother um, he does uh these these days he does like if i called him up and asked because i did this once about my relationship and he gave me some uh good advice but that i accepted as good advice i mean i don't know if you want to get into what that was about but if you just want to accept that it was good advice i think um like out of all my family members i think that was the most wise thing i'd ever actually heard in terms of helping me with my life and it came from my brother not my parents but yeah.
[1:36:16] And when did you call him up for this advice um.
[1:36:24] Six or seven months ago i want to say.
[1:36:26] Okay so this was like almost a decade into your pretty terrible relationship with the mother of your children, right yeah that's a little bit like too late right too little too late because it certainly didn't save your relationship right.
[1:36:39] Right, right but.
[1:36:45] So you have a very uh so philosophy is always trying to extend your time preferences right so you think of yourself as happy in the future rather than the present right right yeah like your dentist says i know you like candy bars but they're bad for your teeth in the future right and then if you got to get a tooth drilled you're like damn it i shouldn't have eaten those candy but or whatever right so you seem to have a very short time preference right so so um i i want to flirt with girls okay i'll go do that is that going to screw up my relationship with the mother of my children yes but i'm going to do that in the moment right and i want to hit my kids going to make me feel better in the moment is that going to screw up my relationship with them in the long run yeah probably right and you didn't really think about the moral qualities of the mother of your children when you got together you just found her pretty and sexy right yeah so i guess you have a very sort of short time horizon for happiness, right? And that generally means that you couldn't plan anything as a child. You couldn't rely on people. There was no point deferring gratification, right? Because, right, I mean, when I left England.
[1:37:55] My brother and I, we got 36 or 38 pounds, which was a fortune back then. And we knew it was two for one Canadian dollar. So we each thought we'd get $38, right? And so we saved, we saved because people gave us money to go to the new world, whatever it is. Right. So we saved. And then my mother just took the money and said, well, you can have it back when, if, and when you need it. Right.
[1:38:16] So then there was no point saving. Couldn't plan. Right. Right. So, I mean, nobody puts the money in a bank if the bank's about to get robbed.
[1:38:26] Right so.
[1:38:27] Could you plan as a child and rely upon the future.
[1:38:35] No uh Stef and i think it's relevant to bring up again uh not again but like i've mentioned obviously in the past um my my dad was in the military so we moved around a lot so that's actually directly relatable in that sense because i literally couldn't really plan i didn't know where I would be going, you know, next year, per se.
[1:38:54] Well, there's not much point in making friends if you're going to move, right?
[1:38:59] Exactly. Right. Yeah.
[1:39:01] So you couldn't really plan. And if your father was moody, then you couldn't plan. You know, consistency and predictability in relationships is the essence of pair bonding. You can't pair bond with someone who's chaotic. And you can't pair bond with people who've got very short time preferences and kind of hedonistic, right? Because they'll just do whatever they want in the moment to make themselves feel better, right? So this is why I'd say it's very painful for children to not be able to plan, because that's what we do as kids, is we try to plan, because we're trying to grow and lengthen our time preferences, because the longer the time preference you have, the more humanity you have.
[1:39:38] Right.
[1:39:41] So it's very painful to not be able to plan.
[1:39:45] It's very painful to get together with someone. Now, this is the essence, I think, of your relationship with the mother of your children. You don't know, is it going to be good? Is it going to be bad? If it was just consistently bad, you never would have gotten together. If it was consistently good, you wouldn't break up. But it's good and bad, right? It's up, it's down, right?
[1:40:03] That's a perfect way to put it, yeah.
[1:40:04] So that unpredictability is why you can't pair bond. Now, where do you get predictability from? Well, you get predictability from the deferral of gratification according to moral principles. Right. You can't predict your weight next year if you just eat whatever you want, right?
[1:40:24] Right.
[1:40:25] Whatever you feel like. You can't predict your muscle mass next year if you just exercise whenever you truly feel like it. And you have no discipline, right?
[1:40:34] Right.
[1:40:35] Now, of course, discipline got a pretty bad rap with you as a kid because your father was in the army and therefore was supposed to be super disciplined guy, right?
[1:40:46] Right.
[1:40:46] But he couldn't even control his own bullying and his own aggression. So for you, discipline has a bad name. My father's very disciplined. He gets up, he irons his uniform, he goes wherever they tell him to, he does, you know, he's got a lot of discipline, but, you know, he yells at me and is scary and aggressive and he can't control his own temper, right? So discipline's kind of got a bad rap for you, right? What's the point of discipline?
[1:41:09] Discipline turns me into my father. but no a lack of disciplines kind of turned you into this like aggressive hippie right, so what is your relationship with self-discipline like i know we we got only a little bit of time left so we'll have to hit the gas but what is your relationship with self-discipline like when you say to yourself look i gotta uninstall all these apps and i gotta think about the future of my family and i've got to stop being so hedonistic and just going after pleasure and like what is your relationship to imposing discipline upon yourself.
[1:41:50] Right so relating to you know the the cheating part let's say um, i obviously not there in terms of self-discipline i think i would give myself a lot of excuses is um i guess the big one with the cheating would be i'm not actually cheating um i won't get caught, um i have to do it or else i'm like gonna go crazy because i'm not getting any sex with my partner and uh i need to feel like anyway the excuse is basically right um, okay sorry i'm not sure you.
[1:42:36] Exercise self-discipline what emotion comes up.
[1:42:43] Um like basically i'm doing something i don't want to do for a benefit down the road kind of thing yeah okay um well um like you brought up before about your when you work out you know you do it in the moment uh you don't want to do it necessarily but uh i don't i don't i don't put enough weight, I guess, on the what's going to happen if I don't do it kind of thing. Like, oh, the short term, it's going to suck. And the long term, you know, maybe I'll get a benefit, but let's just focus on the short term.
[1:43:16] Right. So what happens if you impose self-discipline?
[1:43:24] I do something I don't want to do.
[1:43:26] No, but what happens, and I understand the definition, but what happens to you emotionally?
[1:43:37] I don't want to say just sadness but yeah no sadness.
[1:43:40] That's i think sadness.
[1:43:41] Okay what's wrong with sadness if that's the first i was trying to be i was trying to be a well i was trying to be a bit more specific i mean i'm not like no i said what's happened to you.
[1:43:48] Emotionally that's your first direct answer in the whole conversation about what happens to you emotionally is sadness.
[1:43:54] Okay okay so why.
[1:43:55] Are you sad if you impose off discipline.
[1:44:03] Because i'm using the time i have right now to do something i don't want to instead of doing something that i want to do.
[1:44:09] No i understand that but why is that sad.
[1:44:31] I'm trying not to say because I wouldn't be happy, because obviously that's the same thing.
[1:44:38] Okay, I'll tell you, because I mean, this is a tough one, right? So the reason that you would be sad if you imposed self-discipline is you realize that your father and mother and brother could have done that too.
[1:44:53] Right.
[1:44:54] Because you view them as sort of chaotic forces of nature, and you tried to sell this a little bit to me, like things happened, you know, as opposed to you made a choice, right?
[1:45:02] So your father chose to be aggressive with you. Your brother chose, to a large degree, to tease you, right? And your mother chose to be aggressive, right?
[1:45:16] Right.
[1:45:17] Now, if you impose self-discipline, you break the excuses you have for everyone who mistreated you as a kid, which is why self-discipline is very painful. Like, honestly, I mean, I enjoy my daughter's company, and we have, I think, a pretty great relationship. And realizing how easy that is, like, just be nice to your kids, don't hit them, right? Don't yell at them, don't call them names, don't hit them. It's actually pretty easy. Parenting's actually pretty easy, and it's a lot of fun. You know, I remember when I was a kid, you know, I lived in these paper-thin apartment buildings and paper-thin walls, and, you know, people screaming at each other. It was like a circle of hell back then. It was the 70s, so it was all kinds of shit going on. And I was like, what the hell? Why is everyone yelling? Just be nice. It's so easy. Just be nice, right? And, you know, my wife and I've been married 23 or 22 years, and we get along and love each other's company and all of that. And it's actually pretty nice and easy, right? So the real effort is a lack of self-discipline, right? That's really, really hard, right? I mean, you suffer now or you suffer later, right? If you don't have the self-discipline of eating well and exercising, then you get the discipline of being fat, diabetic, and with bad joints and short lifespan or whatever, right? goes on because of that, right? It's painful to quit smoking, but if you don't quit smoking, you get the pain of sickness, right? Or death. So once you realize that some basic self-discipline is actually not that hard, and the benefits are so great, right? That.
[1:46:46] It's really sad to look at all the people who didn't exercise that self-discipline when it actually was kind of easy to do.
[1:46:54] And of course, people lack self-discipline, and this is why I sort of talking about your bond with your kids people don't exercise self-discipline out of a lack of love a love for their future selves love for those who depend on them especially children right right so if you actually just exercise self-discipline i.e don't hit your kids you'd burst into tears because you'd realize that people around you when you were growing up were just fucking lazy just a lazy fucking lazy lazy lazy they just self-indulgent right yeah that's why it's so sad is it was all so unnecessary all of that sorrow all of that pain all of that teasing it was also unnecessary yeah and and pointless and useless and it wasn't even that hard, it's not even that hard it's really not that hard to not yell at your kids it's really not, it's really not that hard it's really not that hard to be nice to your spouse in fact it's great it's great it's just such a better life and the sort of self-indulgence of these hedonistic people who just followed their every whim while often lecturing others on discipline it's just so pathetic it's so it's so it's like happiness and love and contentment and predictability and consistency and virtue were so close but people just decided to be lazy and make bad decisions and fucked everything up.
[1:48:19] Yeah, and I mean I obviously have continued that and it's only now that I'm really starting to I know that I know we were talking about that I've been listening to you for multiple years and, I'm not going to excuse that I didn't seek out more before but, I am in it now I mean I've just finally realized that what the hell am I doing with my life but not just that what am I doing to my kids lives right That's the most important thing to me now is just them because I've already made my mistakes. Obviously, I'm not an old man. It's like I'm at the end of my life, but I've made fundamental mistakes that I can't come back from. I'll never find a quality woman. I have three kids with an ex that's whatever. These things are set in stone for me, but they don't have to be for my kids. That's my mindset.
[1:49:17] Well, you'd be surprised as a relatively young man how much you can change. But it's going to be suffering to change. Have you done any therapy at all?
[1:49:28] Yeah, so I've heard you mention that you did that before. What do you mean by talk?
[1:49:33] I know you've been part of these groups like SAA and so on, right? Yeah. I mean sort of one-on-one talk therapy with a skilled therapist who knows how to help unpack some of the childhood stuff and give you more scope for free will.
[1:49:47] I haven't. Actually, recently, it's somewhat related, but we did have a therapist, me and my ex. We were doing couples therapy. And then she said, she called that off with the whole breakup. But we were doing that, and we were starting to get a little bit into talking about me, and then the breakup happened.
[1:50:05] Yeah, I mean, you're going to spend money either way. I would recommend that you and your girlfriend, that you spend money on talk therapy rather than lawyers.
[1:50:17] Like individual, not couples, right? But individual talk therapy, like she pays, you pay, or you pay for both if you're the primary earner. If you spend money, I mean, I'm just, it's my particular advice. I'm no expert on this, but I think if you, the more money you spend on therapy, the next you need to spend on lawyers. Because she's with you for a reason as well, right? She chose you and all of that for a reason as well that has to do with her childhood and so on. Of course, if she wants to call in to hear, to me, she's certainly more than welcome. but no i think spending money spending money on on therapy to to deal with this childhood stuff and to help process some of the maybe some of the shame and guilt that you have over you know we've all made mistakes right so i'm not trying to cast you to the outer darkness here like i'm sort of perfect person or something like that so we've all made mistakes but it can take a little while and it can take help uh to process uh how that's affected our conscience and things like that.
[1:51:06] Yeah no it's going to be a separate thing moving forward i mean i think uh after like eight breakups and trying to make things work. I think it's, I think at this point, it's really tipped the scale of what's better for the children. And realistically, I don't think any amount of time. I mean, I've talked to her, for example, you said if she wants to call into you and I've recommended it to her and she's against you. She doesn't like you. But now, has she ever listened to your stuff? Probably not.
[1:51:34] Well, unfortunately, you've not done a great job of selling philosophy to her. Because like, hey, I'm really into philosophy. I like this guy. And then, you know, this is kind of how you behave. Right. Then you're like the fat guy waving around my diet book. Right.
[1:51:49] Uh was that's that's true and i apologize for that i apologize sorry go ahead right i haven't told anybody else about you so i haven't slandered your name in that in that way but um uh but um yeah but i i definitely will look into it um i have been thinking about it it's just i know everybody does this but i think about it financially like oh you know it's gonna be Best money.
[1:52:14] I ever spent, honestly.
[1:52:16] Yeah.
[1:52:16] I mean, best money I've ever spent. So I'm a huge fan of it. And you can look back. I've got a show. I think it's 1927. You just look for how to find a great therapist. I've got a whole show on how to do that. And it is a very good because, you know, it's better to spend money on therapy than combative lawyers, right?
[1:52:38] Absolutely. That makes total sense. Okay. Well, that's great.
[1:52:42] All right. I know we've got a hard stop because you've got some clients coming up, but I certainly do the best. I appreciate your directness and honesty in this call, and I hope you'll keep me posted about how things are going forward.
[1:52:54] For sure, I will do that, Stef. Thank you so much.
[1:52:56] I appreciate it, man. Take care.
[1:52:58] You too. Bye. Bye.
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