0:05 - Introduction to the Conversation
0:48 - Struggling with Family Expectations
4:42 - School Trauma Unveiled
11:15 - Coping Mechanisms and Writing Aspirations
14:32 - Family Business Dynamics
19:31 - The Pressure of Expectations
23:13 - Financial Independence and Family Ties
24:28 - Seeking Personal Fulfillment
30:55 - The Impact of Family Relationships
33:19 - The Quest for a Future
38:10 - Reflections on Family Relationships
40:08 - Identifying Emotional Patterns
43:28 - Breaking Free from Emotional Chains
48:08 - Family Dynamics and Expectations
57:26 - The Burden of Responsibilities
58:13 - Contradictions in Parental Guidance
59:52 - The Weight of Parental Aspirations
1:00:58 - Rejecting Parental Life Choices
1:08:44 - The Struggle for Independence
1:15:50 - Preparing for Confrontation
1:19:55 - Setting Boundaries with Parents
1:24:06 - Breaking the Cycle of Abuse
1:28:31 - Relationships as Transactions
The episode features an in-depth conversation between Stefan and a caller who expresses a deep-seated struggle with familial relationships, particularly with his mother. At the outset, the caller shares his excitement for the discussion but is soon drawn into the intricate dynamics of his family life, specifically revolving around the overwhelming control exerted by his mother, who has been attempting to dictate various facets of his existence. This includes not only personal choices, such as clothing, but also career aspirations, revealing the suffocating emotional atmosphere at home.
The caller, who is 25 years old, embodies the conflict between familial expectations and personal dreams. He reveals his yearning to explore a career in creative writing, particularly aiming to produce short stories with hopes of becoming a novelist. His narrative touches upon his struggles with self-doubt regarding his talents, despite positive feedback from others. His aspiration for creative expression is stifled by a home environment saturated with pressure and emotional turmoil, which has been implicitly instilled by his mother, who is proud of her own business and desires her son to follow a similar path without considering his passions.
As the dialogue unfolds, the caller recalls traumatic experiences from his school years, which evoked feelings of inferiority and social disconnection. He elaborates on his time at a boarding school, intended to be a nurturing educational environment, where he instead faced significant bullying and social challenges that contributed to his emotional scars. Such realizations help to frame his current struggles with self-identity and familial relationships, particularly the aggressive and controlling behaviors exhibited by his mother.
Stefan empathizes with the caller’s plight, sharing his own boarding school experiences, which provides a sense of common understanding. From there, the conversation transitions to the caller’s family dynamics. He characterizes his parents' relationship as tumultuous, ultimately marked by emotional abuse directed at both him and his father. This discussion reveals the burden that the caller feels, he expresses concern for his father’s inability to stand up against his mother’s controlling tendencies, underscoring the generational cycles of dysfunction within the family.
Despite contributing significantly to his mother’s business through various roles, such as marketing and app development, the caller notes that he has never been compensated for his efforts, positioning him in an emotionally and financially precarious situation. He expresses frustration at feeling compelled to aid his mother while simultaneously feeling deprived of personal freedom and identity. The conversation reinforces the notion of his mother's lack of respect for his autonomy, revealing how her desires overshadow his legitimate career aspirations.
Amid the emotional turmoil, the caller grapples with feelings of guilt and obligation towards his mother, often being manipulated by her threats of emotional harm or suicide. Stefan points out the toxic cycle of emotional blackmail that the caller finds himself ensnared in, emphasizing the need for the caller to reclaim his autonomy. The crux of their conversation revolves around establishing boundaries, as Stefan advises the caller on how to navigate difficult discussions with his mother while prioritizing his well-being. They address practical strategies for asserting his independence while managing the emotional fallout from potential confrontations.
The supportive and insightful dialogue culminates in the exploration of the deeper implications of the caller's situation. Stefan encourages him to envision a future free from the constraints imposed by his family's negative dynamics. They emphasize the importance of recognizing his needs and aspirations as valid and deserving of pursuit. The conversation concludes with the caller expressing gratitude for the insights gained, hopeful for a future where he can channel his creativity through writing without the suffocating pressures of his familial obligations.
Overall, the episode serves not only as a testament to the challenges faced by those battling familial expectations but also highlights the potential for personal growth and self-assertion amidst adversity. The caller's journey, reflected through his conundrums and hopes, resonates with broader themes of independence, emotional resilience, and the quest for personal fulfillment.
[0:00] Oh, my God. Hey, Stef, I did not expect that.
[0:05] Oh, you can turn your video off. I'm just going to do audio for that, if that's all right.
[0:08] No, it's fine. It's fine. It's fine. I was just in my sleepy hair. It's like 3 a.m. here.
[0:14] Oh, gosh, I'm sorry about that.
[0:16] No, no, no, no, you don't be sorry about that. I'm super excited for this. I have been waiting for this for ages, so I'm just super thrilled.
[0:26] Great, I appreciate that. Well, nice to see you. Do you mind just turning your video off? I've got to just save a little bandwidth at the moment, and we'll just chat audio, but no, very nice to meet you.
[0:36] Nice to meet you. I've been so excited for this. I've been rehearsing what I'll say to you, but I forgot now.
[0:43] Well, it's very nice to meet you, and I guess you can fill me in on how best I can help.
[0:49] Uh i'm just struggling really hard trying to deal with my mom who wants to run my life completely and she will she's relentless and makes life so difficult that you will not believe, she will like i told you about this uh in an email that she will not let me pick out my own clothes, she wants my career to be the way she wants it to be uh and, um just trying to find my words here so i'm 25 years old she's been trying to do this for years i have a few goals in life okay that i have always wanted a career in some kind of creative field, i would have i've been i would have loved i've been trying to tell her and my dad for years that what i really want to do is attempt a shot at a career at writing i know it's not easy It's never going to be easy and stuff. But, I mean, you can't give up without a shot. Because I...
[2:11] Sorry, what kind of writing are you thinking of?
[2:14] I actually want to start off with short stories. And hopefully at some point I can be a novelist.
[2:23] Right right well.
[2:24] Good for.
[2:24] You but anyway go on.
[2:25] Yeah so i mean i i'm i don't know how good i am people say people like it a lot and people try to writing a lot and uh but but i don't do much of it because the atmosphere at home is always so do me and i this is another thing there's this kind of atmosphere that's always at home this kind of environment this emotional environment where everything is.
[2:55] There is no sense of safety I don't know how to explain it to you where everything is so serious all the time it's like you're at Dunkirk all day, every day.
[3:09] But you're not and it should not be this way we don't have financial issues we have plenty of savings.
[3:17] My family has plenty of savings and there's no reason that they cannot let me ever experiment but it's just my mom has a small business she loves she's very proud of it and she is unable to see that i am not as obsessed by it as she is and that i would attempt i would love to i'm a very expressive and social person and and i want to do something where i can express myself and writing just works with that or you know um i might also try a hand at making like creative youtube videos and stuff those are the careers that really speak out to me initially i wanted to be a musician and i think a part of that was due to my bad experiences i just i don't know i feel like i was attracted to some kind of rock and roll thing uh after i'm not i mean everybody is but i was especially into that because i had a i had like bad experiences at school but i think that really put me into the trajectory of doing something expressive and creative, and they have never acknowledged it, sorry.
[4:43] What was your bad experience at school?
[4:45] Oh my god, I had the worst experiences at school. So they put me in a very good, like genuinely, okay, I can't objectively call it very good, but let's just say it was supposed to be a very good, very healthy place for students to grow, and allegedly a philosophical place for students to grow. um and they saved up a lot for it and it was expensive for them at the time and they put me there in sixth grade I mean one might argue that boarding schools are bad anyway uh in sixth grade they put me there and maybe it was the trauma that I carried up till then but I just could not fit in okay and immediately i i feel like my memories of that time are impressed but immediately, things were fine for the first couple of months this is sixth grade but i immediately became some kind of um i i don't i don't know my behavior.
[6:03] Kind of started to um let me just find a way to face i feel like i started imitating the class clown i don't know the details about it i i know the details i don't know how to say it and people pretty much started to hate me and i was the most immature the most irritating kid at school the whole time and i would be teased all the time and i mean this was this was a place free from any worse kind of bullying and the teachers were quite careful about that but the verbal harassment and some kind of social rejection I experienced really wrecked me and this went on for four years from 6th to 10th grade and those were some of the most formative years and that left me with a lot of emotional scars of very deep, inferiority complex and a complete inability to function socially i was just like, i was just like some kind of bot some kind of immature npc at that point i don't know how to put it it's just so hard to describe what was happening i.
[7:22] I think i i think i understand that um i was in boarding school as you know as well so yeah.
[7:27] Not the.
[7:28] Very best environment as a whole.
[7:30] And so it was sorry from what from what.
[7:32] Age to what age were you in boarding school.
[7:35] Let me see i don't remember how what age i was at sixth grade i think i must have been 12 no no no no much less than that let me just look it up, i can't believe i don't know what age i was just a second.
[7:54] Well you said you'd blocked out some stuff right so i guess that would be part of.
[7:57] It i yeah i've logged out a lot um 10 to 14 so yeah i was i was 10 when i went there and i was 14 when i came back okay.
[8:11] And why did you come back.
[8:13] Uh so that's where the uh school education they that's all they had like they had until from six to ten grade now they have two more years i guess and then I finished high school at home and I let me tell you a little more about that time I was never able to focus I was never able to study and I just somehow flunked my exams I just couldn't I guess you could say that because I was always in such a panic mode I was just not able to you just cannot study when you're it's when it feels like you're fighting through your life, and when everybody hates you when you have nobody to confide in and you're there for four months at a stretch and you, It was just pretty brutal.
[9:05] Yeah, okay. No, I understand. Sorry, go ahead.
[9:09] Go on. Yeah.
[9:11] Well, I mean, was there corporal punishment? Was there, you know, the sort of cliche that, you know, bad things could happen sexually in boarding school? Was there anything like that?
[9:21] No, thankfully, none of that. In fact, the teacher, this could have been a place of great growth had I myself been a little more emotionally healthy. because I've seen kids really thrive there. I mean, it's... So this was like a... You've heard about J. Krishnamurti, the philosopher?
[9:42] I'm sorry, what was the name again?
[9:44] J. Krishnamurti.
[9:46] No, I have not, sorry.
[9:48] He is a very famous Indian philosopher and he has a lot of healthy takes, you could say, with regards to education. And this was one of his establishments or his philosophy schools and we didn't have a uniform the teachers would never yell at us the teachers would never hit us and everything was you know they would talk to us and stuff but I just because of my social issues and I mean I do blame the faculty to some extent for not seeing what the hell was going on and they clearly saw that something was wrong with me But I don't think anybody out there was skilled enough or aware enough to notice and understand, really. I was referred to a school counselor, but that also didn't really pan out. I mean, I just don't think anybody's equipped to deal with the kind of trauma I was bringing into this place. And I will talk about that. this has to do with what my parents faced and everything that I experienced.
[11:00] As a little child which put me in this situation and I, From 7th grade and 8th grade, I used to read, I used to spend a lot of time in the library reading magazines and New Scientist magazines.
[11:16] And I really came out of that place, and this sounds crazy to you, but I came out of that place believing that drugs were the answer.
[11:28] I had this idea in my head that all I had to do was flip a switch in my brain somehow and everything would be fine. And I mean, it's bad logic, but I had no idea how to get out of what I was feeling. I was totally alone. And I had imaginary friends in my head who I used to talk to, literally.
[11:50] That's a very good basis for being a novelist, right? Having imaginary friends is kind of the definition of a novelist. You have imaginary friends in your head.
[11:57] No, I'll tell you. Exactly. it's just those experiences that were so defining that make me so persistent I mean I will not give up I will starve to death if I have to but I will not give up on this dream I just cannot I will do whatever it has to take and I've been trying to convey this to my family and to my mom they just you know I mean who said nobody said it's going to be easy but that doesn't mean you shoot my dreams down from the sky with some kind of, aircraft missile i mean let it land or let let me you know give it a shot at least um but yeah i had like six i don't imagine characters in my head trying to inspire me and i was always trying to uh you know uh change my behavior i was always trying to shut myself up or things like that i I mean, very childish, but I mean, considering my age, it was the best I could have done. And I tried to read up on it. If I do this, I think it should be better. I came out thinking that weed was the answer because everybody is praising it so much. Okay.
[13:12] Just take a drink of water. You know, even the new scientists, oh, you know, anti-anxiety, this, that. I mean, little did I know, it's probably one of the worst substances. Any substance is pretty bad. I take that opinion now. But I came out and I was convinced that I need to go and smoke some weed and that's going to fix everything.
[13:37] And guess what? It didn't. And what came next was even worse for me. so they so there's this huge.
[13:49] Um thing of the education is a huge thing over here okay people are obsessed with grades and stuff so as soon as i came back completely wrecked socially and emotionally as soon as i came back unable to connect with my family out of time you know i feel like i had a good connection with my mom before i went to boarding school but when i came back that not only was that connection severed my connection to myself was severed and i was just not i was just not there emotionally and they my mom and my dad everything is mostly my mom my dad is a very passive person um.
[14:32] And i one would even say he gets pushed around by my mom a lot and he just doesn't he just won't fight it i i just i feel like he's given up on life at this point um so they put me in these extra tuition classes and they were also extremely stressful and these were a little worse than when I was than my school, and we had to go there twice a day and I was so stressed I was just unable to focus and this just created like a sonic boom of sorts and then in the middle of all this, someone introduced me to weed, finally not finally, I mean I don't know what to say about that but for me it was a finally because I always wanted to flip the switch and fix everything, and then I got completely dependent on it and I was smoking it all the time and.
[15:33] Those were like some of the worst years because uh you know by the way i came out of that school with full-fledged borderline personality disorder there's just no other way to describe it, and you know my emotions were all over the place i was just out of control, and then i got caught a couple of times it was a very my parents instead of being helpful or any of that were extremely toxic about it and just seemed to make things worse thankfully those i managed to find my way out of that but it has just left me with not just scars but i feel like i'm way behind with things on my peers and i still feel lost and my mom will just not let me be myself she will not let me be authentic you know she makes it very clear that i'm not to talk about these things whereas i am the kind of person who wants to talk about everything with everyone because i've been through a ton of shit and figured a lot of it out and you know it's it's my way of expressing my understanding to people and this is also a source of conflict in our relationship. Yeah, if you have any questions, you can point them out.
[16:58] So what if you are 25, right? So what have you been doing since, I guess, 18?
[17:04] Okay, so my mom has a business and she has always, she has never really tried to make me do anything other than this business. And even here, she wants to take the executive position. So I've been helping her basically with the business. For the most part, I've helped her. In the middle, I had a job for six months, less than that outside, as a content writer at an advertisement firm. But I really did not even enjoy that. So I only had a job outside. But I have done a lot of work for my family business on my own. I have redone, you know, I do marketing, I do the website, I do, I made an app for them, like an Android across platform app. So I've done a lot for my mom's business. But she has never paid me at all, ever.
[18:11] Like, I have to fight for money, even though I'm doing the work of six people. And literally, the work of six people. It's not like bad or unprofessional work. It's something that people will charge a bomb for if you ask someone outside. I have made a ton of videos for them, edited them, published them. So I've been working for her. and so what happened now is i had my 25th birthday in jan and i was like this has to stop okay this is not fair as more time goes on you know you know things are slipping outside of my hands and the pressure from my family or from my mom rather it's just gonna get worse and she will not give up until she's running every aspect of my life which is what she seems to be doing or wanting to do so i made an excuse of a vacation and i just left this month so i had some time to think and i had some time to figure it out or figure something out because she can't have everything she can't you know make me work and not pay me either she has to pay me fairly or she you know she doesn't want me to move out she doesn't want me to have my own life and it's just it's just difficult to.
[19:31] Deal with her because whenever I try to talk about it, she starts to yell. She always yells a lot, not only on me but on my dad as well and I, um she just you know if i seem to be getting the upper hand and she throws a tantrum she starts crying and whatnot i and she has even gotten to the point of threatening suicide i mean and that just that's like a frag grenade in the room in the middle of the room she just tosses it out there and it just explodes yeah wow.
[20:09] That's uh that's intense that's intense.
[20:13] It is. It's like an emotional... I've just been drawing blanks on how to... Sorry about that. I'm trying to deal with her in such positive ways, but it's just not happening. And at the same time, I'm not able to let go. And this is something that I have to figure out. And that's the main reason I've tried to get in touch with you. because even though i'm away from my family that atmosphere of doom i talked about it just follows me around because i know they're hanging around in the background hounding me even now calling me up six times a day and asking me to you know okay your vacation is over come back and do this work as in i'm like i have no intention so what is it that they.
[21:04] Would like you to do the most like the traditional lawyer, doctor, mathematician, professor, like some sort of high status braggable thing for the parents.
[21:14] Um, no. So my mom has raised a pretty, uh, um, she has created a pretty good company for herself and that has earned her a lot of money. They were initially very poor, like no money poor. It's like a rags to riches story. And she's created a company from scratch and it's a health company, but I don't know how you can have health without mental health. But anyway, it's a physical health company and she wants me to take over. But here's the thing about that. She won't let me take over and she won't let me, you know, do things innovatively. She is running the business in a 1960s style attitude, which won't work in 2022. And she basically wants me to run the company exactly as she wants me to run it. She wants me to behave exactly as she always did, which is very harsh with her customers. Somehow people still love her, I guess. And maybe that's just the indoctrination of the people around her. But that's what they respond to. They've been trained to.
[22:29] And she also wants me to make a full app for them, a lot of which I've already done. I mean, that's expensive stuff. I have learned how to, by the way, I didn't tell you. I have, in the past five years, I have learned how to code completely. So I can write code, I can write Flutter code, and I can do backend and Django and stuff. And I have created a full app for them. And guess what? Not been paid at all, at all, for months and months of work. Hard work.
[23:00] But they pay your living expenses when you're at home, right?
[23:05] Yes, they do.
[23:06] Which, you know, at 25, you know, it could be reasonable to say, like, at some point, you should be paying your own bills. So I'm not saying that's right.
[23:13] It's certainly not professional, but it's not like they're paying you absolutely nothing because you get room and board, right?
[23:18] Yeah, I do. I do. But, you know, I've told them, you know, why don't I move out and then you can pay me a salary? Or, you know, why don't you create a salary estimate for me and you can take out whatever percentage you want as living and food? and all the amenities I get. But no, you know what my mom said?
[23:38] No, no.
[23:38] You can have what you want.
[23:40] I would imagine that they don't want you to have the independence, right?
[23:43] No, that's the thing. That's my mom. I wouldn't say they. My dad, he won't stand up. He won't stand up for himself for the most part, but he also won't intervene for me. Okay, I don't know what I was trying to say, but it's mostly my mom is what I wanted to say. She doesn't want me to have financial independence. So I left recently, and I'm like, I'm going to work outside and get money that way, and I'll move out on my own. And it's been very rough since, because she did not like that at all.
[24:20] Right, right.
[24:23] Yeah.
[24:24] Now, what's the ideal situation for you? What would make you the happiest?
[24:29] What would make me the happiest? Um... there's three things one is a stable income through app development as a main thing while i can work on my writing as a part-time and if the writing takes off great i'll be a full-time writer if not um i can continue as an app developer or as you know um i have given up the hope of her company i don't think that's ever i don't think i can ever work with her but yeah an app so that's the first thing app developer until the writing works out which is the second thing and the third thing ideally for me would be to kind of break the emotional chain they have me under like they've i feel tied up emotionally and just i feel obligated even though I know rationally everything that I should, I'm under no obligation to them. I still respond to them and I want to break that, you know, emotional dimension to it so I can be free and I can be myself without guilt.
[25:39] Right.
[25:41] Yeah.
[25:42] And what are the phrases that your mother throws at you to provoke guilt?
[25:49] Oh there's a lot of this let me just have a drink of water just a second.
[25:53] You were totally allowed to hydrate in the course of this conversation.
[25:57] You don't have to apologize for needing to drink that's.
[26:00] True for all of us so go ahead.
[26:01] I know try not to make noise i have a bottle here that's why okay um she says a lot of things uh just yesterday we were talking and, I just told I was just trying to show her that I have my way out basically so I have some language for discussion, so I told her I have this client that I'm going to meet who's an old friend and a previous client of mine I've done a photography job for I guess I'm multi-talented, so I've done a photography job for I'm going to be meeting her again tomorrow and doing a job and also working with her husband on a company he has and she tells me that i am crazy i uh what i'm doing is the craziest thing ever i don't look professional and she's trying to kind of indicate that whatever i'm doing is crazy it looks crazy and i should stop doing it because it's crazy.
[27:11] I mean that's.
[27:11] More insulting than guilt really.
[27:13] Right if somebody calls you crazy that's sort of an.
[27:15] Insult right it is it is uh when it comes to guilt she will just you know be dropping things like oh you know this thing is not working this is not working we're stuck without you you're not doing this for us uh and i'm like you know some of these things she can just hire people for but She will never do that. She just doesn't want to spend any money. She just wants me to do all the legwork.
[27:40] No, no, no. Hang on, hang on. It's not about money. I guarantee you it's not about money. If she didn't want to spend any money, hang on, if she didn't want to spend any money, why would she send you to boarding school? That's pretty expensive, right?
[27:53] Yeah.
[27:54] No, it's not about money.
[27:55] Do you know what it's about? What is it about? Control.
[27:58] You had a thought there. Tell me what you think.
[28:03] Um i i missed the thought it's gone no problem what do you think it's about no.
[28:07] I know what it's about if you don't mind.
[28:09] Me saying being annoying and arrogant oh please yeah yeah so i've listened to enough shows to know you know what it's about it's.
[28:17] Because no sane human being would work for her because.
[28:20] She's horrible this is another not about money oh boy this is this is so true we have never oh my god you just gotta you we have never had an employee stay more than six months they just run away they don't even talk they just they just know they just don't come back forget the money they're like i'll be you know whatever or sometimes they'll take a salary and then disappear they just disappear and it's true nobody likes to work for her she's extremely she, doesn't have a clear head so she just she just loves to hound people so there was a receptionist there isn't one and she just goes like oh you do nothing all day what have you done today i mean god she's a deceptionist i don't think she needs to do any more than sit and at the table but she's like tell me what you've done today you you've just wasted the time and she has these mindless drone tasks i mean just this just things that don't need to be done at all and she's like i want you to go through the all this data of all these years and do this with it and there's just no utility to that there's no you know outcome there's nothing you can do with the data and then uh she's going to comment about oh how slow you are or you you're not doing so yeah she just relies on hounding people and being like oh you're not working enough stuff like that so yeah people yeah i mean.
[29:41] If you want to think of like the way that that life works right so the the relationships that you choose you know your adult.
[29:49] Relationships.
[29:49] Your friendships and your girlfriends your boyfriends, whatever, right?
[29:53] Yeah.
[29:54] That's like the free market. And family is just, it's like working for the government. Now, of course, if you're working for the government, you don't really, you don't have to be good at your job. You can be a jerk because, you know, generally, you know, if you're working for the tax department, you don't have to have good customer service because, you know.
[30:11] Yes.
[30:11] You can just, you've got the power of the state. Now, I mean, I'm sort of aware of that. You know, my family, my wife has the choice to leave me if she wants. My daughter's a little stuck with me, right? So I'm sort of aware of that, right? And so your mother is like the government. And she doesn't want anyone who can leave, because they always do. So she wants to keep hold of you, because you're the person that she can be a total asshole to, a total jerk bitch, or whatever, right? She can be really abusive. She can be abusive to you, and you can't leave. This is why families often tend to bring out the worst in people, in the same way that governments also bring out the worst in people, because it's not a voluntary relationship.
[30:54] It's not at all.
[30:56] And as soon as yeah right it's.
[30:58] Not it's not there's no way it is.
[31:00] Well no but it is i mean the government we can't escape right but your mother yeah it's a voluntary relationship after you're 18 right and that's so i and this is what people yeah this is voluntary.
[31:10] But i can leave.
[31:11] Yeah i mean this is this is what people get mad at me about and frankly don't care because privatizing the family is is the only thing that makes for a free oh i heard.
[31:19] You say this a hundred times and completely agree with this.
[31:23] Yeah i mean so the way it works for me i mean the way when i try to.
[31:28] Privatize it uh all hell breaks loose.
[31:30] Well of course i mean if you try to pride to privatize the government if you try to try to privatize the government all hell would break loose too, oh yeah the way the way that i'm getting fired yeah just just to remind you right so the way that i looked at it when i was dealing with my mother was i would just say okay well let's say was at a dinner party i'm at a dinner party and i'm i don't know my mom she's just some woman who's at the dinner party right yeah yeah would i would.
[31:57] You talk to her.
[31:58] Well i mean i would talk to her because it's a dinner party and you want to be polite and make conversation and all of that what i say after the dinner party wow you know, This person would be a great addition to the happiness and love of my life, right?
[32:14] Oh, hello.
[32:15] Right. And that's the reality of the situation, right? Yeah. Because, you know, you, being a young man, you're very much focused on the past. Nothing wrong with that.
[32:28] Yes.
[32:29] Perfectly fine. You're very focused with, well, when I was 10 and boarding school and marijuana and the work I've done for my parents and they don't pay. It's all about the past, right?
[32:39] Yeah, I agree.
[32:40] And my invitation to you is to say, well, basically to hell with the past. What about my future wife? Because, I mean, young man, you're focused on, and I'm not criticizing at all. It's perfectly natural. You're focused on the injustices that have been done to you and how to fix them and how to be assertive with your parents, and you want your father to act differently, and you want your mother to act differently, and blah, blah. And that's all perfectly fine and natural for a young man. And as an older man, soon to be an old man, what I would say is, you know, to help with all of that, build the kind of life that's going to attract you a great wife, right?
[33:19] I mean, I assume you want to get married. Tell me if I'm wrong.
[33:22] Yeah, I do. Absolutely.
[33:24] So let's say that tomorrow you meet some wonderful woman and Sumira or whatever it is going to be, right? And so you meet some wonderful woman and she likes you and she finds you creative and interesting and funny and all of that, which I'm sure you are, right?
[33:40] Oh, I can't have my mom in my life at that point.
[33:43] Well, yeah. And then she's like, oh, yeah, I'd love to meet your family. And then she meets your mom, right? And then she says, wow, I could spend 40 years with this woman.
[33:55] No way. No way in hell.
[33:57] Okay. So that's the problem, right? so i'm going to try and pull.
[34:00] Your perspective.
[34:01] Away from the past which is fine again it's no criticism nothing wrong with it.
[34:05] No i would love it that's what i want i was actually thinking about this today and i was just you know you know the doom i talked about the sense of doom, is because it's i'm looking at what's buried no i'm looking six feet under instead if you were if you were driving on the highway.
[34:26] And you were trying to drive by looking through the rearview mirror or by turning around and looking out the back of the car.
[34:31] Exactly.
[34:32] Your passengers would be screaming, right? We're going to die.
[34:36] Absolutely.
[34:37] Right. So you have to, you know, having a rearview mirror is important. We have to look in the past and check. But I want to get your vision into the future.
[34:45] I agree. you know a reason for this is also because of the complete lack of so i also have like a lack of social connection not only because of um you know some like every now and then i used to struggle with some emotion not anymore but just because you know i cannot have healthy relationships with my mom in my life because she's always putting me down so i'm always in like a defense even around friends so there was it's very difficult to connect with people so you know that because of my mom i've had a lack of sane people around me i mean i create crazy people, yeah and naturally that is that's which is another thing so here's the thing okay if i have some if i talk to someone like you it's like the most obvious thing everything brackens up again okay it's like oh this is the you know this is right this is sensible there's there's hope out there But another reason for me was a complete lack of people with these ideals in life. And that was keeping me looking at the ground instead of looking up.
[35:56] Yes.
[35:57] If you get what I'm saying.
[35:58] You can't be healthier than the least functional person in your environment.
[36:02] That's the best way to put it.
[36:05] Right. So... are there things that you like or admire or look up to with regards to your mother.
[36:19] Yes, I don't know how to how exactly I'm going to phrase this but I do seem to subconsciously, be in a sort of awe with her because her life has been pretty difficult and she seems to have done very well for herself, I mean if you want to look at how her life was, and that is oh come on listen listen.
[36:53] Listen okay I don't mean.
[36:55] To I.
[36:56] Don't mean to put all of India.
[36:58] In one basket no I'm expecting this I don't mean to.
[37:00] Put all of India in one basket but.
[37:03] There is.
[37:03] A certain aspect to some parts of the Indian culture that is.
[37:07] Shallow as hell Oh, yeah.
[37:10] Right? And it's like, I got the Lamborghini. I've got my kids are lawyers. And your mother doing well? Because she's made some money? Is she loved? Is she happy? Is she respected? Is she a good and virtuous person?
[37:30] Not good and virtuous, but maybe respected. Because she's surrounded by people like that.
[37:35] How can you be respected if you're crazy?
[37:40] I mean, you have people respecting crazy people too, right?
[37:43] Only if they're crazy too.
[37:45] They are.
[37:46] Okay, so then she's respected. Being respected by crazy people is not an achievement. it.
[37:54] Yeah i got it.
[37:56] It's like saying i'm a great artist because blind people love my paintings.
[38:02] Yeah no yeah she's not respected that way.
[38:05] Well and her husband uh does not seem to love her your dad no.
[38:10] He he does not i doubt he loves himself because if he did he would leave.
[38:16] Well i mean he's got to be his got to have his own issues otherwise he wouldn't have married her to begin with, but do you have any siblings?
[38:21] No, it was an arranged marriage.
[38:23] Okay. Do you have any siblings?
[38:25] That's a big thing here. I'm the only one.
[38:30] Right.
[38:30] Right. It makes things even harder.
[38:33] It certainly does. It certainly does. And there's no appealing to him. Is that right? Like you can't appeal to him and say, dad, time to get off the fence and defend your son?
[38:43] Oh, he gets, he gets, what's the right word? you know when a cat scratches you all over the face that's what happens to him when he tries to do that he's trying um and he just at some point i feel bad for how violently she goes at him like verbally and emotionally that i just i've told him not to interfere that i'll manage it myself because she makes life hell for him and him being the kind of person he is very passive sort of person i mean i just i don't want to put him through the agony of trying to stand well look he's.
[39:25] He's not passive he's broken.
[39:27] He is yeah he's frightened he's.
[39:30] Being terrorized right he's a.
[39:32] He's a he's a victim of.
[39:34] He's a victim of emotional abuse of i assume his childhood and in many years with your.
[39:39] Mother yes so he's got post-traumatic.
[39:41] Stress disorder and he is a traumatized victim of verbal abuse.
[39:45] Yeah so so you know he started he tries to defend me and he's you know offered me uh financial support if i want to leave and stuff, but um that always lands him in hot water like all these things, So, you know, I've decided to do this on my own.
[40:08] Okay, so hang on. So I think I've got a fairly good lay of the land, and how can I help you the most?
[40:18] I seem to have some kind of internal, you know, I'm trying to, there's something in my head, okay? Do you know how they train elephants? I think this is the best way to describe it. i don't know how to speak.
[40:33] About it intelligently but go ahead.
[40:35] Okay so um elephant trainers when elephants are babies they will tie them to a chain and basically the baby is not strong enough to escape that chain like no matter how hard the elephant babies try i mean this is very sad i mean i feel bad talking about it but no matter how hard the elephant babies try to break the chains then they're not able to uh but what happens is they become they just become conditioned to the chain and they're like okay if i'm tied to the chain i cannot break it and this is how when elephant elephants are adults and more than strong enough to break the chains they just don't try and i feel like there's a certain kind of behavior that i exhibit that that that kind of mirrors this kind of behavior where i know i can leave i know i'm free to leave but i still humor my mom and her tantrums and i wish you can help me get identify what that is maybe very calm and help me break my sense of obligation towards my mom too i don't know why i have sorry sorry to interrupt she's she's a crazy yeah go on.
[41:52] Okay so sorry to interrupt um so you're looking at the wrong person.
[41:57] Uh-huh it's.
[41:59] Not your obligation towards your mother that keeps you there.
[42:03] What is it it's.
[42:05] The obligation towards your father, Because if you leave, then his life has been a huge mistake. And if you leave, his last male ally in the family leaves, and he's alone with your mother. And if you leave, his mother, I'm sorry, your mother, his wife, will berate him and bully him until the end of time, because she won't take any responsibility for herself. So the person who most desperately wants you to stay is not your mother, but your mother.
[42:38] Let me think about it for a second i'm not sure he wants me to stay i think he's more than happy i think he's told me many times that he'll manage and that i'm free to leave he has.
[42:53] Okay that's totally fair and i will withdraw that because i also mentioned that you you mentioned that he would give you money he's offered you money to go right, yeah no it's what if you leave hang on but if you leave has he thought it through that it's going to be very if you leave or let's say that you don't spend time with your mother or you don't talk to your mother because she'll go crazy if you leave right because she's all about she's managing her own anxiety by bullying suicide yeah yeah so she's managing her own anxiety by threatening people around her and bullying people around her but if you leave how are you going to maintain a relationship with your father.
[43:28] I have not even thought that far i have not even thought that far uh give me a second to think about it you know i never considered the idea of um breaking off contact with my mom in the first place i never even considered that because that is so far off my you know it's like i i don't even think about it because of some i don't know why i i know i want to do it but i don't even consider that as a possibility because that is gonna so um let me just think about this for a second okay and.
[44:07] Sorry to interrupt but it's not.
[44:09] It's not about breaking.
[44:10] Off it's not about breaking off relationships with your mother i mean you may do that you may not it's not my choice of course right but.
[44:15] Yeah it's.
[44:16] More about instead.
[44:19] Of throwing.
[44:20] Away the past it's more about finding a positive the future in other words it's not about.
[44:25] Separating from.
[44:27] Your mother it's about having a space where a quality woman can come in and enjoy your company and want to marry you and want to be with you.
[44:33] Yeah yeah yeah that's right yeah i i was just not thinking about it that way uh and give me a second to process that of course take your time because there's there's something that there's there's some kind of emotional wall that I'm hitting up against, but I'm unsure about what it is and how I can convey it to you. I feel like it is that this emotional wall is the many instances of my mom, acting helpless or just sad or you know i'm just being manipulated with my emotions is what i feel look there's.
[45:21] You can't have a relationship with an emotional terrorist you can't.
[45:25] Yeah like the moment somebody says if.
[45:28] You don't come here this weekend i will kill myself or whatever right i mean whatever.
[45:33] Crazy stuff is not so explicit yeah yeah yeah.
[45:35] I get it but you know you're driving me to drink or i'm gonna throw myself off a bridge or whatever's being said right then there's no relationship then right there's no.
[45:44] Relationship all you're doing is all you're.
[45:46] Doing is being terrorized and.
[45:48] Complying with abuse exactly and i'm just i'm i'm so unsure about why because, rationally i know i you know i know rationally what it should be but emotionally my mind is holding me back and i'm just struggling with that so much because all i have look i'm far away from, all I have to do is play my moves right get a great job outside and then carry on but I seem to okay here's the thing I think I got it, I have not, out of fear or out of some kind of control or something, I have not thought of a life outside of what she has allowed me to think of life as. In the sense that my whole life was there. no because of the fact that she has never allowed me to have my own goals have my own dreams my only dreams were how to integrate things with her dreams basically uh and this wasn't all conscious because this has been going on for years um i feel what what that did is that when i go out on my own i am basically directionless because my entire future was sorry.
[47:17] Sorry i'm confused because you talked about wanting to be a writer and and doing your coding work and so on so.
[47:23] That's outside.
[47:24] What your mom wants isn't it.
[47:25] It is it is but um that's that's the ideal situation but you have thoughts you.
[47:33] Have thoughts about that so.
[47:34] I i have thoughts about that but um I have never emotionally considered I have never been able to take that you know how, so I have not been able to accept that I have not been able to give me a second, I have not been able to believe in that because of how impossible I think that is well I think it's.
[48:03] Not no it's not that your dreams are impossible it's that your mother's reaction to you acting on your.
[48:08] Dream that's what's impossible right yeah it's so extreme step it's so extreme her reactions are always so extreme and she's crying and she's throwing a tantrum and she's so uh my grandma so my only living grandparents are my mom and her mentally retarded son, my mom's brother. And she keeps saying that, you know, I just want these people to die so I can die in peace or so I can die or kill myself. And I mean, it's just all so extreme. It's just because of that, I'm unable to. It's like being held at gunpoint.
[48:52] No, I absolutely. Totally. That's what it emotionally feels like. But it's not extreme. So you have to, I mean, obviously the behavior is outrageous and appalling, right? So I'm not going to pretend that it's not. But I think that the word extreme, you're looking at it from a moral dimension. Now, I guarantee you that your mother is not looking at these things as a moral dimension. And what I mean by that is, don't think of them as behaviors that are extreme or even abusive or, I mean, that's all true, right? But that hasn't helped you in terms of being able to deal with this, right? So, the way that you look at it, it's from a transactional or functional standpoint, right? Why does your mother do these things? You say, oh, well, but she's crazy, she's controlling, she's this, she's that, she's, you know, abusive and, okay, that's all true, I'm sure, but that doesn't help.
[49:46] Yeah. so here's here's the.
[49:48] Answer you ready for the answer this one i'm quite confident.
[49:50] Oh yes oh yeah okay so here's the answer why.
[49:54] Does your mother do these things because they.
[49:57] Work work yeah yeah because they work it's work so far well.
[50:04] She does she i mean she doesn't.
[50:08] Say yes go ahead uh you know there's been so many times where i have tried to be like you know uh i have tried to break through this uh through this um wall okay and and you know what she does at those times she will take away all my gadgets she will just she will just take everything and she'll be like now do what you want all this belongs to me and that was one reason why it took till 25 for me to even consider leaving because every time i even thought about it she would just take away everything and i didn't because of because i've lived in relative luxury uh and that was like a shock you know uh living without any anything and she's like okay just leave now um if you want to yeah i just wanted to say this but yeah go on you were saying something i.
[51:05] Was so So, if you reward certain behavior, that behavior will continue. Most people don't have a sense of integrity or honor or morality that's within themselves.
[51:19] Oh, yeah.
[51:20] They simply, they're like water. You know, if you pour a big giant bucket of water at the top of a stony mountain, the water will simply just find its way down. It doesn't have any morals. It doesn't, oh, well, I shouldn't touch that. Oh, I should go water that plant because the plant is thirsty. It just follows the physics of water. water that's falling down a hill it just goes wherever you're gonna go and most people are like that they will try various behaviors ah you know you were you were when you were young your mother tried various behaviors on you she's obviously tried various behaviors on your mother on your father sorry to get yeah right so she is someone who is simply doing what works.
[52:02] And if you look at it from that standpoint yeah yeah.
[52:06] So if you look at it from that standpoint and take the morality out of it and the abuse out of it.
[52:11] And again i'm not.
[52:12] Saying they're not there but.
[52:14] I know but this gives you this gives you.
[52:16] Control right so how.
[52:18] Do you change.
[52:19] Someone or how do you change your relationship with someone who's doing what.
[52:23] Works well it has to not work yeah it has to.
[52:28] Stop working right.
[52:29] Okay it i'm scared what if it goes catastrophically wrong i'm just i'm it's a i feel like it's an international field okay that's that's.
[52:39] Fine that's fine you understand that that catastrophe has been put in your mind by your mother because it works.
[52:47] Oh wait a second now you.
[52:50] See what i'm saying.
[52:51] I was trying to say that that may not happen because she is pretty sane that way okay wait a second so what i'm imagining is probably not going to happen in real life is what you're saying well.
[53:04] She gives you that thought because it works.
[53:08] She does yeah okay so these are how can i be sure these are empty chats i mean i guess i can actually i know her, Yeah, I think you're right Oh God Well.
[53:26] Okay, listen I can't guarantee you Hang on, hang on I can't guarantee you That they're empty threats, But the more she escalates The worse the relationship actually is It is, yeah Right, so let's say that she does Take a bunch of sleeping pills And end up in hospital, right? Mm-hmm That means that the relationship Is even more toxic Than you thought.
[53:51] Yes. At which point, yeah, not worth it at all.
[53:58] Let's say that she goes to a real extreme and throws herself off a bridge and dies, right? It's like, okay, well, then that was going to be, for the next 40 years, my life. I was going to spend 40 years under the brutal thumb of an emotional terrorist who threatened self-destruction and then would actually... this is how hateful she was is that she's willing to kill herself to hurt me and that's an i mean nobody wants to live with that that's an appalling situation to be in but that would then save you 40 years of being controlled and i think this.
[54:30] Really had i think i i think i'm gonna i'm gonna ruminate over this one this this is something that um was really helpful that you said that um, not that these are empty clads but the fact that these are ideas put into my head by her.
[54:50] Yeah it's a bomb in the brain the validity.
[54:52] Of yeah yes i i have i've listened to that in your archives yes it's a bomb in the brain.
[55:00] I don't know how i go hang on so that there's one other transactional aspect to this that would be helpful right so okay you be your mother let's do a little role play here so i can i can meet this fine specimen right so you be your mother and i love it and and um i will say um uh let's say i say as you right so you be her and i will say uh mom i'm not doing any more work for your company i'm not i need to get paid and i've got to get ahead with my life i'm a quarter century old i need to get moving on with my life and i i can't keep doing free work uh for you and you know i can give you the names maybe as some good coders i can help interview someone but uh it can't be my job anymore.
[55:43] One second. I'm just going to think about what she would say. We have had this conversation. I don't know why I can't remember what she would say.
[55:52] Well, no, she's blocking you from remembering because she doesn't want this to be revealed in the conversation, right? So your inner mother is blocking this memory.
[56:01] Oh, yeah, there's a lot of those. Oh, God. So what would she say? she would say why she would say why why don't you want to.
[56:12] I'd say wait why why don't i want to get paid for work i do i mean mom no.
[56:17] Why don't you want to work uh oh well.
[56:19] No so you say well why do i want to get paid i would say mom you get paid for what you do i mean you have this application you have this health business and you don't work for free you get paid for what you do so So how could you not understand why I want to get paid for what I do when you get paid for everything you do?
[56:38] Okay, but I'll pay you $300 a month, $400 for 12 hours every day.
[56:44] No, that's not a deal that you would take, right?
[56:49] Of course not.
[56:50] Okay, so that's not a deal I'm going to take.
[56:52] Yes. Yeah, obviously not. Obviously not. But I mean, so what would she say? Wow, this wasn't supposed to be so hard to remember. I have built up this company so you could take over. And now you just want to leave it.
[57:20] Well, I'm glad that you understand my position.
[57:26] Yeah but have I done all this for nothing you know I worked my me and your dad worked our asses off to get this company off the ground and now you just want to throw it all away, because of some pipe dream of becoming a writer which is never going to happen.
[57:46] So I'm sorry that you feel upset that I don't want to do your business but you understand that's that's my rights as an adult and you want me to think for myself and not just be your slave, right? So I should have my own thoughts and dreams and all of that.
[58:03] Oh, I mean, what are you talking about rights here? There's nothing about, you know, you're free to do what you want, but you have to take over this company.
[58:14] Well, you understand that's a little bit of a contradiction, right, mom? I'm free to do what I want, but I have to do what you want?
[58:23] No, I'm not saying you have to do what I want. I'm just saying you have to get from the company. Sorry, I'm just being repetitive. Let me think about what she would say that's new. She would be like ...
[58:46] Can I try what she might say?
[58:49] Please go on. Please help me.
[58:51] You're a stupid young man.
[58:53] Oh!
[58:55] I and your father are wiser. We came from nothing. We gave you everything. We know a little bit more about life. And we saw people who tried to follow their dreams and ran straight off a cliff. We're trying to give you something sensible and solid that's going to make you attractive in the dating market, get you a quality wife, a quality life. and we do not want to see everything that we pour into you go up in smoke and flames because you're chasing after some writing thing. And how many writers actually make any money? Oh, and by the way, you're 25 years old. Where is all of this wonderful writing? Maybe if we had a chance to look at your wonderful writing and judge it for ourselves, we could, but you don't produce anything. You just have this as a pipe dream. Just stand in the way so that you can resist what your parents want you to rightfully and justly do to have a sensible life.
[59:37] Holy crap. It's like you were there all along. Oh, my God. You just bullseye on that one. That is exactly what she would say. Wow. I mean, fuck.
[59:52] Sorry. I'm just in awe at how well you know yourself and other people.
[59:59] Well, you know what I was saying about having imaginary people you have debates with, right? I mean, the writer, right?
[1:00:05] Oh, yeah. I have read. I have read what you've written. And that's where all this is coming from. Incredible.
[1:00:10] Sure. incredible.
[1:00:11] Understanding of human uh of a human soul.
[1:00:15] Right that.
[1:00:15] Is exactly what she was saying and how do i respond to that.
[1:00:18] Well i don't know but something could be like look i um i'm really sorry that you feel so anxious about me wanting to be a writer now clearly i have developed skills i've learned how to code so that's not all i'm going to be i'm very sorry i'm very sorry but But here's the problem, Mom. Here's the problem. So you and Dad have raised me.
[1:00:44] And the problem is, I don't, I love my father. There's things about him that I really respect. I don't want his life. And I don't want your life. You know, there's things that you've done. You came from nothing. You built a business. You're hardworking. You're focused.
[1:00:58] And there's some great stuff in all of that. I don't want, like, I don't view you guys as having a super happy marriage, if you don't mind me saying so i think yeah yeah i think that dad is is not super happy.
[1:01:12] And i don't want the life that you have so when you say oh listen to what i say because i know how to live the problem mom much though i care about you and and these wonderful things that you've done in my life i don't want your life, So it's like if you're, I don't know, some very unhealthy person, just imagine you smoke and you never exercise and you're overweight or something, and then you say, you should follow my lifestyle because I know best. Well, then I would be less likely to because I would look at you and say, well, you smoke and you don't exercise and you're overweight and you don't look good and you can't climb a flight of stairs or whatever, right? So the problem, mom, is that when you want to give me advice, I can't hear what you're saying over what you've actually done. And I don't want the life that you and dad have. And so when you tell me, do what we have done, take over the business, stay close to the family, I don't want what you have. Now, maybe it works for you. I don't know. It's hard for me to imagine, but maybe it works for you. And obviously, you've stayed married and so on. but when you say, son, you've got to be like me, you've got to do what I know best, and well, you know, mom, when you threaten to kill yourself because I don't do what you want, do you think that makes me want to take your advice on how to live?
[1:02:39] Yes, that is beautifully put. Yeah.
[1:02:46] And then you would say, how dare you bring up all of these things when everything that I do is for you and my soul focuses on your happiness and I do know how to live and you're still young and blind and stupid. You've experienced nothing of the world. You've experienced nothing of the suffering that we went through when we were growing up. You don't know anything about the world. You have to listen to your elder, all that kind of stuff, right?
[1:03:06] Yeah, exactly, Dev.
[1:03:09] Right. And then it still comes back to, but I don't want your life.
[1:03:13] Yeah.
[1:03:14] I don't want the form of your life Because what you're saying, mom, is be like me, and then you too can grow up to threaten your children with suicide if they don't obey you. And it's like, I don't want to do that. I don't want to live like that. I don't want that to be my life.
[1:03:33] Yeah, something along those lines.
[1:03:34] Sorry, one other thing. Do you know why really dysfunctional mothers don't want their children to be writers?
[1:03:42] Oh, because we're going to write about everything that's happening to us. And that's what I intend to do.
[1:03:48] The better the writer you are, and I'm sure you've got talent, right? But the better the writer you are, the more your mother is going to be publicly exposed.
[1:03:57] Oh, yes. And I have mentioned this, maybe not my brightest moment, but I have mentioned this, that I'm not going to hide anything from anyone. Not about her specifically, but, you know, I'm just not a person.
[1:04:10] Of course it's good to be about her.
[1:04:13] Yeah. She wants me to hide my life experiences. Oh, she doesn't want me to talk about the cannabis abuse. I mean, I just feel like these are the things I, you know, I want to, this is who I am. This is what I've been through. right it's the first you know i would talk about this with close friends at some point because they're close friends and she's like oh you cannot do that you gotta shut up about that stupid shit and stuff like that right but i think yeah you you made a very good point and yeah she she's deadly scared of me being a writer and a successful one oh god maybe she'll be happy at some point right.
[1:04:50] Yeah no um tennessee williams the guy who wrote streetcar named desire glass menagerie night of the iguana and so on yeah his mother.
[1:04:59] Wasn't all.
[1:04:59] Too keen about his uh.
[1:05:02] His career writing.
[1:05:03] About mothers and crazy women and all that right so uh.
[1:05:06] So yeah.
[1:05:07] I mean it's it's tough it's tough it's tough for the mothers uh particularly when she's.
[1:05:11] Uh she is.
[1:05:12] Uh like if you want to know what a person is most afraid of look at what they.
[1:05:17] Inflict on.
[1:05:18] You so she.
[1:05:19] Is most afraid.
[1:05:20] Of shame and guilt and.
[1:05:23] That's why she.
[1:05:24] Inflicts the shame on guilt right whatever.
[1:05:25] Weapon you pull on others is the one you're most afraid.
[1:05:27] Of yourself sorry go ahead.
[1:05:28] Yeah yeah a lot of shame to the extent that i cannot be myself at home i'm always this kind of robotic npc with a fixed behavior at home i mean that's why that's one of the reasons i've been trying to get out for years but unable to because i didn't have you know i didn't have the ability not only was i younger and less i had no resume and stuff back then, Not only that, but I was just completely incapable because she would never let me do anything. She had totally kept me dependent in terms of chores and all of those things.
[1:06:03] Right.
[1:06:03] And money and, you know, never teaching me how to take care of financial stuff. So, yeah, there was a lot of things that she's done that kept me in the, you know, in the ring until 25. Until I'm ready to, I'm strong enough on my own to be like, okay, I'm out.
[1:06:19] Well and it's tough you know if if your mom and dad.
[1:06:22] Don't really.
[1:06:23] Love each other and really enjoy each other's company then you.
[1:06:26] Leaving yeah well.
[1:06:27] It's just them.
[1:06:28] Oh yeah that's another thing, i i think their life revolves around me of course because they want to avoid each other and we're yeah and it's like totally dependent both ways i i i hate to say this but it is dependent both ways i mean me to them and them on me um and that this is also one thing i'm feeling since i've left home uh like a couple of days ago and the lack of dependency or just my usual dependence um having gone has left me falling you know no what do you mean um i just feel so so strange from them and it doesn't feel good even though they're not the best people. I'm talking about my mom mostly.
[1:07:22] You feel so you're estranged from them. You feel distant from them? You miss them? I miss them.
[1:07:29] I miss them. Which makes no sense to me nationally. But emotionally I miss them. That is how I'm...
[1:07:38] I mean it's familiar and that's what your life has been to a large degree so far, right?
[1:07:43] Forever. for forever right that's what it's been so so that's what i was feeling and even now it's just like a complete daze daze and confused right about how but i think some points you made have really helped out, What do you think?
[1:08:08] Well, I mean, I have to accept what you tell me because I'm not you, but I think they have helped. But no, so my focus would be recognizing that if you've had a life where you've had to conform to your parents, your mother in particular, then your personality is not used to existing outside of tremendous pressure.
[1:08:29] Yes, exactly.
[1:08:31] And so that pressure, you may feel like you lack self-definition.
[1:08:37] Like.
[1:08:38] You lack almost like you lack a personality in the absence of conformity in the absence of being bullied in this kind of way.
[1:08:44] In the absence.
[1:08:45] Of control you may feel kind.
[1:08:47] Of like a.
[1:08:48] Fog bank or shapeless or something like that like water rather than.
[1:08:52] Actually um yeah maybe it's not exactly this i just want to say something um there's this basically um once the you know the distancing occurs i am i feel like i'm you know it's like i'm hanging by a straw in a fast stream because i have no you know it's basically then i'm it's like i'm out on the street and i'm hopeless with no money because i have no money they've never paid me so it's it puts me in a very dangerous financial situation uh and that's one of the things that is like really stressing me out because you know obviously i can't yeah i can't count on their money and it's just something that scares me to no end because not only have i had to give up all my all my you know i don't i don't want to say this but privilege uh not only have to give it up but i have like, no way to even have a remotely sustainable or familiar life i'm not saying i want to live in luxury but you know um the way i'm living now it's it's so jarring to me you know i'm living i'm i'm with a friend uh i'm crashing with a friend and let's just say this is not a home as much as it is a cave no but look i mean what.
[1:10:21] Is your i mean what are your other options to go home and not have a personality, not develop your own career, not have any opportunity to meet a quality woman who still runs screaming. Okay, so what's your choice, right? It's sort of like saying, oh, the plane is going down, and all I have is a parachute. It's like, well, compared to what? Compared to going down at the plane and crashing? That seems like a pretty good thing, doesn't it?
[1:10:45] It is a good thing. But, you know, there's obviously this sort of panic that comes on, like the financial panic.
[1:10:53] When you're.
[1:10:54] On the last drunk.
[1:10:55] But see that's that's more evidence of being badly parented because by the time you're 25.
[1:11:03] Or
[1:11:03] Earlier than that they should have been teaching you the life skills that you need to be independent.
[1:11:09] Oh i have so the fact that you're scared is exactly why you.
[1:11:13] Had to get out.
[1:11:15] Yeah and i don't know how to cook so i'm just you know just going with the flow at this point you don't know how to cook it's.
[1:11:22] Not brain surgery just you know look up a.
[1:11:24] Recipe no yeah you know that much i can manage but um yeah so so basically uh there's this idea, that uh so my mom currently holds this idea that i'm gonna be here for a week or or so and gonna go back and she's totally on it and as soon as i'm gonna say no all hell's gonna break loose and i'm i don't even think i'm prepared to deal with that do you have any suggestions on yeah i mean you can say.
[1:11:55] Well wait a minute you guys sent me away for four years surely you can live without me for a couple of weeks more.
[1:12:00] Yes yes i.
[1:12:03] Mean you live.
[1:12:04] Without me for.
[1:12:05] Four years when i.
[1:12:05] Was my mom will say okay here's my mom uh but you manage a lot of things around here and none of those are working now so you need to come back and fix them all why right now why.
[1:12:17] Do i need to do that.
[1:12:19] Uh because uh we we were relying on you and you agreed to do it which i did by the way at some point oh but i was afraid i suppose yeah.
[1:12:29] I would say i'm sorry i've changed my mind.
[1:12:34] Uh how can you change your mind you made a commitment.
[1:12:38] Yeah well i've i've changed my mind i mean i have free will don't i.
[1:12:44] How dare you that's not an argument that's just a statement of outrage.
[1:12:50] That's not an argument.
[1:12:52] Yeah i think she'll start yelling at her yeah i get that you.
[1:12:57] Say look i'm sorry i'm sorry you're upset this this is tough for you i.
[1:12:59] Get it i'm sorry you know to manage her complete outrage i've been telling her so i've been making this app right so i told her even when i'm away i'll make it for you. Just appease her. And yeah, I mean, I don't really want to do it if I'm not getting paid a good amount. Making an app is a big thing.
[1:13:23] Well, you know, you can tell her that you'll document the application and you're willing to hand over your notes to another coder, but she's going to have to get someone to manage it. Because, you know, you say, listen, I'm 25 years old. I'm 25 years old. I got to get on with my life. I can't just be like hanging around your skirts doing work for free. That's not no way to build my future. I mean, you say you want me to have a future. Okay, well, this is me having a future. I'm independent. I'm going to cook for myself. I'm going to get a job. I'm going to, you know, get my own place. I mean, that's good. That's what parents are supposed to do, right? Is launch their children into the world.
[1:13:57] Yeah. I think that was phrased very well by you. um and yeah that's something uh those are the things that i would want to say uh i'm.
[1:14:08] Just you have to not own you have to not own her being upset so she starts ranting and screaming and say i'm really sorry that you're upset um give me a call when you've calmed down because i won't be spoken to like this like you this is not this is not healthy this is not good it's not good for me it's not good for you either yeah.
[1:14:25] This is something i have to think about.
[1:14:27] Yeah and then just look if she keeps yelling at you just say listen i'm sorry if she keeps yelling at you just keep i'm sorry that you're upset i'm sorry that you're so angry you know please take a walk around the block calm down have some chai tea whatever you need and then uh call call me back when you feel calmer and we can discuss this more rationally and if she keeps yelling you just hang up like it just it just have to have it not work oh.
[1:14:50] My god i'm scared to do that oh oh here's the bomb in the brain back again.
[1:14:54] Yeah, she's made you scared to do that so she can keep yelling at you. I'm sorry?
[1:14:58] Is there a way to defuse this bomb? Because I feel like in the moment I'd be so scared I wouldn't be able to do it. I have to defuse this bomb somehow.
[1:15:09] Well, so the way, I mean, you know, if somebody is a bomb disposal expert, right? Do you know what they do a lot before they go and disarm a bomb?
[1:15:18] Practice?
[1:15:19] They practice, that's right. So you could write this scene out on paper. you can pipe it out you can role play it in your mind you can get a friend to act it out you could do like just role play it so that you don't sit there with your very first bomb being a live one right you and this part of what therapy is all about as well is you get to practice that's correct these things right so yeah you don't just go wandering into this and say i hope i can disarm this bomb by just grabbing some wires and pulling randomly because you're likely to end up with no face right but no exactly yeah so you gotta i think this is.
[1:15:51] A great suggestion i'm gonna be practicing it before i pull the final plug so to speak on.
[1:15:59] This well look i mean here's the funny here's the funny thing right so i haven't talked to my mother in 25 years right but and look i'm not suggesting you do the same i'm just telling you my my experience i know i know yeah i haven't talked to my mother in 25 years there is no moment of any day that i am not willing to have a conversation with my mother. I am always open to having a conversation with my mother.
[1:16:24] But she can't yell at me she can't insult me she can't manipulate me she can't bully me wow right so i'm all i'm always look i'm thrilled to have a conversation with my family members my father died two years ago before he died i would have been more than happy to have a conversation with him but he had to be honest and he had to listen like those are just some basic requirements and standards so it's not it's not hostility it's like i'm never talking to you again it's like no these are my standards for communication yeah don't fucking insult me don't yell at me yeah don't call me names don't insult me don't escalate don't threaten me like those these are not unreasonable standards to have in a relationship absolutely no don't bully me don't threaten me don't don't terrorize me don't order me i think i think hang on let me finish let me sorry about so you have reasonable standards the re i mean you're not saying to your mom you have to do everything that i want and you owe me five million rupees for my work right you're not saying that and then we have to move to mumbai or whatever right like you don't you're not you're not saying that you're saying don't yell at me don't call me names yeah don't abuse me yeah like these these are not unreasonable standards to have and now if you don't want to meet yeah if you don't want to meet those standards, that's fine. Mom, you're totally free.
[1:17:51] To yell at me to abuse me to to to insult me to you're totally free i'm just gonna hang up like you're totally you i'm not trying to control you i'm telling you you know like when you go into a store right and it says you know this is the price for a cup of coffee they're not saying you have to buy the coffee they're saying yeah if you want the coffee this is how much it costs.
[1:18:14] In the same way if your mother wants to interact with you then this is what it costs it costs having reasonable conversations like that that's just the standard, like don't I mean it's not a crazy standard like my mother and my father and my family they mean not my mother my father because he's dead but they can call me up anytime, and I'm not even going to say that they have to apologize for the wrongs in the past because you know I'm 55 years old it's pretty long ago now I you know I haven't lived with my mom for like other than a brief period in my 20s for like 40 years right so it's not not a big deal yeah but but yeah but um they they can't manipulate control bully insults you know like that sorry that's i have i have way better relationships in my life now why would you, you know why would you drink a a a a cup of water for the ganges when you have a bottle of evian right next to you right like why would you why would you eat shit when you've got a nice ham sandwich or whatever like that right next to you so yeah with your parents or or you know this is true for all relationships you know anybody from my past i'm perfectly happy to have a conversation with anybody who wants to call me up wonderful but but i have these standards now the fact that they're not with me up is because they know that i have these standards and i'm going to enforce them ah so i'm not i'm not separating from them at all i'm not separating from them i'm saying these are the standards you must follow.
[1:19:41] To have a relationship with me or to even have a conversation with me i don't deal with emotional terrorists i don't deal with bullies i don't deal with abusers i don't do it i won't do it that i had to do it when i was a kid i don't have to do it now so this is the price.
[1:19:56] I i want to give you a cup of coffee but you gotta have a buck right so so with your parents it's like hey i would love to chat with you mom i'm not doing it this way because i can't this is incredible yeah i i'm not doing it it's not an angry thing it's not uh you know screw you bomb you whatever i mean i'm sure you feel that from time to time and i'm not going to blame you for that but it's like no no no we're not no no you're not yelling you know no yelling and then if she keeps yelling you just hang up and then if she calls back and she's yelling you hang up and you because she it has to stop working for her otherwise she'll never change oh god okay because she has no internal sense of direction where she says oh i really shouldn't bully my son i mean we know that for sure because she spent 25 years doing it oh yeah oh yeah so it simply has to not work and then the question you know for me the question was okay do you want a relationship with me if you don't get to abuse me now for most of my family of origin it turned out you know not so funny story if they don't get to abuse me or exploit me they don't want a relationship with me it's like okay well i'm glad to know that now maybe your parents will change or maybe it just has to stop working and yeah she's gonna yell and she's oh i'm gonna throw myself off a bridge oh yeah like no no but mom please don't bully me please don't threaten me i won't like i will not accept that in my life and you know there'll be a long pause and she'll try different strategies and she'll try to bully you back into being once of course she will because it worked for 25 years because she set all the rules because she's the mother so she sets.
[1:21:25] The rules but guess what you're 25 years old. She doesn't get to set the rules anymore.
[1:21:31] Not anymore.
[1:21:33] And by the way, if you really want to help your dad, having your mom's bullying not work is the very best thing you could do for your dad.
[1:21:42] Yes.
[1:21:43] Inspire him.
[1:21:44] Lead by example.
[1:21:45] I hate that you have to be a leader with your dad.
[1:21:47] Lead by example.
[1:21:50] But if you want to help your dad, I'm sure you care about him, right? And if you want to, I'm sorry that you as a 25-year-old have to be the leader for him in his 50s or her over all the years but that's just yeah that's yeah that's just the way it is so you can be a leader to him and you can show him a better way but no just you can't you can't do it because you know if you keep allowing at this point it is allowing your mother to bully and it is yeah if you keep allowing this then some woman is going to sense this and she's going to latch on to you get you to marry her get and then she'll bully and control you yeah exactly yeah that you'll never get to grow up and leave this situation, ever.
[1:22:29] Yeah yeah those are the three there's three more things that i wanted to mention so yeah one of them was so here's another thing um sympathy or empathy or pity, that takes me that takes over me because um what i'll do i i suppose is then i imagine how pathetic her life is without me and i feel so bad about it i feel so bad about it and even though i I know she has chosen to create that for herself. I know it affects me and compels me to call her up and be like, hi.
[1:23:13] Well, if you reward, if you care anything for your mother, and I know that you do, I care for my mother. If you care anything for your mother, do not put her in a situation where she does evil. Do not put her in a situation where she does grave moral wrong to you.
[1:23:29] Yeah.
[1:23:30] Because look, if your mother was a drug addict, would you buy drugs and deliver them to her?
[1:23:36] Absolutely not.
[1:23:37] Right. So if she's addicted to abusing you, you have to take away that drug. If you care about her at all, like you understand the worst thing that you can do is feed her addiction.
[1:23:50] Yeah.
[1:23:51] That's unutterably cruel.
[1:23:53] Yeah. And it's going to keep her from considering changing, you know, as a person.
[1:24:01] My mother is a happier person because I do not enable her abuse.
[1:24:06] Because if my mother had another 25 years of abusing me, she would be a much more unhappy person. This is the only chance she had for any less unhappiness or any chance of happiness was for me to take away the drug of how she treated me.
[1:24:19] I need you to elaborate on that a bit.
[1:24:23] Well if you if you harm your child it hurts your soul if you bully your child it hurts your soul, it hurts your conscience it hurts your happiness we cannot do wrong and be happy so every time you allow your mother to do wrong or every time you reward her with your conversation and your time and your attention after she's done wrong or made you feel guilty or made you feel frightened or bullied you or something then you are reinforcing her doing a grave wrong in her life which is this is your revenge you understand as an adult compliance is your revenge because you're trapping her in a horrible cycle of behavior and this is your revenge you're not trying to make her happier you're trying to make her unhappier by complying and allowing her bullying to work plus you're also angry at your dad for failing to stand up for you so you feed her bullying but she then takes out and your dad and he she's your vengeance against your dad too.
[1:25:16] My God, you're so right.
[1:25:19] It is out of love that we don't let people abuse us. It is out of caring.
[1:25:26] No, you're so right about that. I think this gives me all the ammunition, so to speak, that I need to bear this firefight that's about to happen.
[1:25:42] Right.
[1:25:43] And there were two more things. one of them was, so this thing that you said about your mom and how you are perfectly willing to talk to her I feel like in my juvenile knowledge I must have conveyed to my mom that, something like if you don't change I'm gonna have to disconnect from you which is not actually what I meant, yeah I just wanted to mention that that was one thing and what was the third thing yeah so i you know since jan i've started to you know tell her that um you know unless you um help me you know unless you improve your behavior then we can't you know have a future relationship that's going to be healthy or good or one and all and yeah obviously she thought that was extremely hateful and you know my only demand for her was that was that we all as a family listen to your podcast for a little bit every day. That was my only demand at that time. And wow, I mean, the amount of excuses they came up with. My mom and to some extent my dad also not listened to it is, you could write a book about that. Maybe I should.
[1:27:06] Yes, maybe you should. Maybe you should. And also, I'm a big fan of talk therapy. And so if you could find a good, competent family therapist, I'm sure, you know, if she's got all this money, what better way to spend it than improving the quality of her relationships? Family therapy can be very good that way.
[1:27:23] I tried. And for some reason, yeah, I guess I need to try with another therapist. If they agree, I'll be more than happy to. But I think this thing that you said about, oh, I'll be more than happy to talk with you if you want to call me anytime, as long as you don't, you know, harass me or bully me. I think conveying this, I was conveying the wrong thing in the wrong way. I was trying to tell them that if you do this, I have to break off from you, which is actually not. In reality, that's not what I want.
[1:27:53] Because she's a bully, she's going to perceive that as a direct threat, which is going to be tough, right?
[1:27:57] Yeah.
[1:27:57] Because then she's just going to escalate from there.
[1:28:00] Yeah. Yeah. The escalation is something that she's done many times. That was the third thing that I wanted to say.
[1:28:08] You're happy to sell the cup of coffee, but somebody's got to have the dollar, right? And you're happy to have the conversation, but they've got to treat you well. And you can say, listen, I mean, the good thing that you did in raising me was to say, have some standards of behavior, right? I mean, you could say to your mom, the reason that you're successful in business is because you require that people pay for your services.
[1:28:32] Well, you require that there be a win-win, right? You sell them your health service, they give you money, and that's a win-win situation. But it's the same thing in relationships. All relationships should run that way.
[1:28:42] No, exactly. I think there was another thing that I wanted to say, but I've completely forgotten it. But, oh, my God, Stef, you have done more than I could have asked to help me out.
[1:28:52] I'm glad it was helpful and I thank you so much. You're very welcome. Will you keep me posted about how it's going?
[1:29:00] Absolutely, I will. And hopefully you'll probably see me on the shelf someday.
[1:29:07] I hope so. Yeah, obviously keep me posted about all of that. And I thank you for a very engaging conversation. I will.
[1:29:14] And Stef, I just want to say again, thank you so much. And I've been going through your archives and you You are probably my favorite celebrity of this millennium. I don't know what that means.
[1:29:28] Well, thank you. But also, you might want to check out, I don't know if you've read Real-Time Relationships, but that's a pretty good one for at least my thoughts on relationships. Okay, good.
[1:29:35] I have read half of it, and I'm going to finish it.
[1:29:38] All right. Well, keep me posted, brother. I really appreciate the call. Thank you so much.
[1:29:43] I do too. Bye.
[1:29:45] Take care. Bye.
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