Parenting Overwhelm and a failing Marriage- I don't want to yell anymore.
I am 6 months post partum with baby #3- oldest just turning 4. My body is so depleted and I am so overwhelmed and have crazy low moments emotionally. I hate myself for yelling at my kids to clean up, don't climb or touch things etc. I just flip and hate it so much. I'm a christ follower and a generally happy person but I want to dig into my broken childhood more and wrong mindsets etc to be healed. I hate yelling and so afraid I'm damaging my kids like I was. My marriage sucks- my husband constantly chooses porn/masturbation (which we view as sin) and knows the steps to take/people to talk to deal with his junk. He doesn't take personal responsibility and whenever I express how I don't feel loved or heard etc he shuts down and turns it back on me- gaslights me making it my problem. He's constantly sarcastic and derogatory and I just feel used by him. Besides providing for us and helping with the kids some on the weekends (he works nights which I hate) I absolutely don't think he is for me or loves me. Just what I do for him. Yet he wonders why I don't want to have sex when he doesn't hear me and just says crap like "do your duty and suck it". Wtf? I'm so hurt and angry at him. My friend who listens to your show told me I need to and to try to get on a call with you. She said the real people I need to get angry with are my parents and until I dig that root out I'll just keep getting mad at the wrong people, like my kids (which she learned from you). And my husband too.
I actually only listened to one episode and had various revelations. I realized that I do have crazy unrealistic expectations for my kids and deep down I think I believe no-one is for me and people are trying to hurt me. Like I'm not truly loved. People keep rejecting me. It's hard to deal with some of this when my husband doesn't this on a daily basis. 🙁
I know my kids aren't trying to hurt me by making a mess when I worked hard to clean etc. They are just playing like kids should. But maybe I feel that deep down. I get so triggered and wasn't taught emotional regulation. I want to learn. I want to not live or think like a victim. I want to dig up whatever is causing me to be sooo triggered at a drop of a hat. I want a good marriage and to respect my husband. I don't want a divorce. I don't want to think it's all about me (a twisted version of selfishness, thinking like a victim). Ug. I feel so crazy in moments feeling like I need zoloft or something but hate the thought of that. I'm trying various natural remedies for giving my body what it needs but not much is working.
My husband even gaslit me just now. Earlier he said he wanted to have some cuddles and talk maybe when the kids go to bed. Nope. He said not at 11:30 at night... yet during the week he expects me to wake up at 3am to "spend time with him" because that's the best time for him. Then makes it my fault because I didn't wake up. Are you kidding me?! He just doesn't want to deal with stuff. And I told him I'm going to leave for 2 hours in the am to a coffee shop for alone time (which the only time I've gotten any sort of break is when his parents babysit). It's like pulling teeth for me to get a 20 min bath alone 1x a week! He says it's my job and was made for it. I am a stay at home mom. I'm allowed a freaking break. And when I just told him I was leaving for 2 hours (I normally don't unless it's a Dr apt or grocery shopping = not a true break!) He asked if I need drugs. Like anti depressants. I might but I'm allowed a break! I literally want to go to the coffee shop to read my Bible and journal and recharge some. I feel like a godly husband, like he claims and pretends to be, should be happy I want to do those things. It's hard to stay joyful with my husband the way he is. I have done inner healing prayer, some counseling from my pastor, we've done marriage retreats and intensive counseling weekends, I've done womens retreats and classes. I'm trying to read self help books etc. I just don't know what to do. I hate the way I feel inside when overwhelmed and get frustrated so easily. How can I deal with my junk and be the best mom I can be? Even if my marriage sucks.
0:03 - Breaking the Cycle
1:41 - A Strained Marriage
5:33 - Unpacking Childhood Trauma
10:08 - The Weight of Neglect
12:48 - Struggles with Relationships
21:34 - The Impact of Addiction
30:16 - Seeking Love and Acceptance
38:43 - Dealing with Family Dynamics
48:40 - The Burden of Responsibility
58:32 - Exploring Personal Choices
1:07:00 - Consequences of Rebellion
1:15:17 - Navigating New Relationships
1:23:34 - Love and Family Conflict
1:31:03 - Family Dynamics and Love
1:35:57 - The Journey to Finding a Partner
1:42:47 - Navigating Marriage Challenges
1:59:35 - Parenting and Personal Triggers
2:17:15 - The Impact of Criticism in Marriage
2:26:40 - Understanding Addiction and Past Trauma
2:37:53 - Closing Thoughts and Future Steps
In this episode, I engage in a deeply revealing conversation with a caller who shares her profound struggles with parenting, personal trauma, and the difficulties within her marriage. As a mother of three, with her youngest being just six months old, she finds herself overwhelmed and exhausted, battling feelings of inadequacy and guilt, particularly regarding her parenting style. She expresses a strong desire to break the cycle of yelling—an emotional reaction that she fears mirrors her tumultuous childhood experiences. Having grown up in a chaotic environment marked by her parents' addictions and neglect, she reflects on how these traumas manifest in her current parenting challenges and her relationship with her husband.
Throughout the call, the caller articulates her frustration with her husband's addiction to pornography and masturbation, which she perceives as a failure to take responsibility and connect with her emotionally. This ongoing issue fuels her feelings of isolation and despair, compounding the stress she experiences in her role as a mother. She bravely confronts her own unrealistic expectations regarding her children, acknowledging that these might stem from her upbringing and the need for control in a world that often feels chaotic.
I emphasize the importance of breaking out of this cycle of victimhood—both in her relationship with her children and her husband. By shifting her focus from blame and criticism towards understanding and empathy, she can foster a more nurturing environment. We delve into the complexities of her husband’s behavior, exploring how his unresolved childhood issues and isolation might explain some of his actions.
I provide insight into the emotional toll that her husband's sarcasm and derogatory comments take on her, encouraging her to ask probing questions about his childhood to unearth deeper issues. Through this exploration, I highlight the notion that both partners in a marriage must relinquish the right to criticize each other if they are to cultivate a loving and supportive relationship. The call serves as a poignant reminder of how one's upbringing profoundly influences adult relationships and parenting styles.
As we near the end of the discussion, the caller reflects on her desire to fix her husband and her children, a tendency that often results in feelings of helplessness. I guide her to recognize that her true healing lies in change within herself—starting by letting go of the need to manage others' lives to alleviate her discomfort. Ultimately, I encourage her to foster open communication, empathy, and understanding with her husband to promote healing for them both. This conversation culminates in a shared hope for growth and improvement as she embarks on the journey towards healthier family dynamics and personal recovery.
[0:00] Okay, so the topic, parenting, overwhelm, and a failing marriage.
[0:04] I don't want to yell anymore. Details. I am six months postpartum with baby number three, oldest just turning four. My body is so depleted and I'm so overwhelmed and have crazy low moments emotionally. I hate myself for yelling at my kids to clean up, don't climb, or touch things, etc. I flip and I hate it so much. I'm a Christ follower and a generally happy person, but I want to dig into my broken childhood more and wrong mindsets, etc. to be healed. I hate yelling and so afraid I'm damaging my kids like I was. My marriage sucks. My husband constantly chooses porn and masturbation, which we view as a sin, and knows the steps to take, people to talk to, to deal with his junk. He doesn't take personal responsibility. And whenever I express how I don't feel loved or hurt, etc., he shuts down and turns it back on me. Gaslights me, making it my problem. He's constantly sarcastic and derogatory, and I just feel used by him. Besides providing for us and helping us with the kids, some on the weekends, like he works nights, which I hate.
[1:14] I absolutely don't think he is for me or loves me. Just what I do for him. Yet he wonders why I don't want to have sex when he doesn't hear it. When he doesn't hear me and says crap, like, do your duty and suck it. Like, what the heck? I'm just hurt and angry at him. My friend who listens to your show told me, I need to try to get on a call with you. She said the real people I need to get angry at are my parents.
[1:42] And until I dig out that root, I'll just keep getting mad at the wrong people, like my kids, which she learned from you. And my husband, too. I actually only listened to one episode, and I had various revelations. I realized that I do have crazy Unrealistic expectations for my kids and deep down. I think I believe no one is for me And people are trying to hurt me People like i'm not truly loved People keep rejecting me.
[2:09] It's hard to deal with some of this when my husband doesn't doesn't he does this on a daily basis I know I know my kids aren't trying to hurt me When by making a mess when I just worked hard to clean it, etc They're just playing like kids should. But maybe I feel that deep down. I get so triggered and I wasn't taught emotional regulation. I want to learn. I want to not live or think like a victim. I want to dig up whatever is causing me to be so triggered at a drop of a hat. I want a good marriage and to respect my husband. I don't want a divorce. I don't want to think it's all about me, like a twisted version of selfishness, thinking like a victim. Ugh, I feel so crazy in moments, feeling like I need Zoloft or something, but I hate the thought of that. I'm trying various natural remedies for giving my body what it needs, but not much is working.
[3:02] My husband even gaslit me just now. Earlier, he said he wanted to have some cuddles and talk. Maybe when the kids go to bed. Nope. He said not at 1130 at night. Yet during the week, he expects me to wake up at 3 a.m. to spend time with him because that's the best time for him. Ben makes it my fault because I didn't wake up. Like, are you kidding me? He just doesn't want to deal with stuff. And I told him I was going to leave for two hours in the morning to a coffee shop for alone time. which the only time I've gotten any sort of break is when his parents babysit. It's like pulling teeth for me to get a 20-minute bath alone one time a week. He says it's my job and I was made for it. I am a stay-at-home mom, but I'm allowed to have a break. And when I just told him I was leaving for two hours, which I normally don't unless it's a doctor's appointment or grocery shopping, which isn't a true break, he asked if I need drugs like antidepressants. I might, but I am allowed a break. I literally want to go to the coffee shop and read my Bible and journal and recharge some. I feel like a godly husband, like he claims and pretends to be happy. I would want to do that. It's hard to stay joyful with my husband the way he is. I've done inner healing prayer, some counseling from my pastor.
[4:25] We've done marriage retreats and intensive counseling weekends. I've done women's retreats and classes. I'm trying to read self-help books, et cetera. I just don't know what to do. I hate the way I feel inside when overwhelmed and get frustrated so easily. How can I deal with my junk and be with the best mom I can be, even if my marriage sucks?
[4:47] That's quite a tale. And I really appreciate that really raw honesty. I also appreciate the trust you have in your friend to call me. That's quite a journey to take. uh just talk to some guy on the internet who's supposed to be able to help and i do appreciate your friend and i'm sure we can do some great work together and uh i guess how do you feel about about reading that.
[5:09] Um like it's still true like um reading out loud helps process in a way um.
[5:23] Yes, but those aren't feelings. How do you feel? Do you feel nervous, scared, excited, happy, sad, angry? Or yes, to all of the above?
[5:33] Yeah. Like, I don't feel, like, super emotional in this moment, like I did when I was writing that. Like, some moments are just so, like, crazy, like, outside myself, like, I'm bawling and stuff, and the, you know, I read it, and I do feel emotion, but, um like i feel okay today even though my husband hasn't talked to me and whatever, i'm nervous for what you're gonna suggest to me.
[6:03] Oh don't be nervous i'm a teddy bear i'm uh i'm such a nice guy you won't believe it all right.
[6:09] Oh i'm i am hopeful um but i think there's a hard hard decision that needs to be made and i don't want to go there but i want to be well.
[6:20] Right right how old are your kids four.
[6:24] Two and six months.
[6:25] Right so you know six years you've been sleep deprived yeah no i mean that's how they break people down right it's a torture i was just talking with the mom this morning her kid last night got up 10 times her baby so no that i mean there's just a certain amount of like having kids especially if they're like awake kids like my daughter was like an awake kid never wanted to go to bed and was up uh you know half a dozen or a dozen times a night and uh sometimes you just get those hardwired kids that are just up kids did your kids sleep okay or how's that.
[7:01] The first two were up a lot um and and my my third now sleeps pretty good she just wakes up twice um i do nurse her so.
[7:14] So God pulled you back from the brink with the third one.
[7:18] Okay.
[7:19] All right. So how much sleep are you getting a night?
[7:23] Yeah. We're night owls, and I always wake up to go to the bathroom, even if a kid doesn't need me.
[7:33] Well, you've had baby's feet on your bladder for like half a decade.
[7:38] It actually was like that before, kid.
[7:41] Oh, okay.
[7:44] But, I don't know, eight-ish.
[7:47] Oh, okay. So the sleep is not too, too bad, right?
[7:50] Right now, it's okay. Okay. um i never have felt that i can i wake up rested though which is that and daily headaches that i've been trying to figure out for a couple decades is a mystery headaches.
[8:09] Like not migraines right but like like not like lie in a dark room with a cold towel on your head stuff but just like headaches.
[8:15] More so headaches i've had migraines but it's just a dull headache can be worse but I've just learned to deal with it.
[8:26] Yeah, my wife has a headache. I'll sometimes leave the room and see if she feels better. No, I'm just kidding. All right. So, and have you done like blood work and all that kind of funky stuff to check the blood and levels and hormones and things?
[8:40] I've done all the things. I saw a specialist. I haven't, you know, tried different supplements, diets. Not much has helped until I was.
[8:53] Okay okay good like i'm glad that that's eliminated because obviously i'm just like philosophy guy so i can't do much about that okay so tell me about your childhood my young friend.
[9:07] Um i was born on a wedlock my parents were like 19 um and they got a divorce my brother is 15 months younger than me um they got a divorce i think when he was a baby and my dad remarried my, i've learned in my adult life that my mom was like on drugs and i don't know what kind of drugs hang.
[9:35] On hang on what kind of drugs.
[9:36] I don't know my dad recently told me the last couple years that she kind of went a little crazy and i did my mom did just tell me that she tried to commit suicide by taking pills i'm.
[9:52] Sorry if i missed that what what drugs was she on.
[9:54] I'm not sure pain pills or something okay.
[9:59] Like oxy or something like that right some sort of opiate.
[10:02] Wow and.
[10:05] How old were you when she tried to kill herself according to your dad right.
[10:08] According to my dad i think i was like a baby wow.
[10:14] So was she does he say that she was taking drugs while she was breastfeeding you.
[10:21] Um, no, I would, she was smoking at least. She went into labor buying cigarettes because my dad didn't want to buy her cigarettes because she was pregnant, but yeah.
[10:34] Wow. Uh, okay. So, so your parents split up, your dad got remarried. What happened with your mom and her dating life or, or romantic life?
[10:45] My mom's always dated somebody she dated somebody for like 10 years growing up his daughter was a lot younger than me she was like a sister they dated yeah like 10 years ish um but they were just using each other he was using her for babysitter and she was using them for a house because she filed bankruptcy for bankruptcy now you kind of.
[11:09] Have and look i understand why but you do kind of have a chuckle when you're talking about this stuff. But it's seriously not funny, right? I mean, this is like really disastrous stuff to grow up with.
[11:20] Yeah.
[11:22] And it's common, right? I don't know if the show you listen to, but it's common that people sort of invite me into dark comedy land when talking about terrible childhoods. But it's really dark, right? I mean, drug addiction, suicidality, and bankruptcy. and sorry go ahead.
[11:41] My dad was an alcoholic for.
[11:45] How long still.
[11:46] Is oh.
[11:49] He still is how bad.
[11:51] Very um like he goes to work every day he's the hardest worker i know but not.
[12:00] On sobriety he's not.
[12:04] Yeah so how bad.
[12:05] Is his i mean how many drinks does he have a day.
[12:09] Oh um growing up i feel like he would drink like a case of beer a half a case to a case a day probably holy.
[12:19] Pickled brain batman that's astounding.
[12:24] Yeah.
[12:26] Okay, so... Sorry, go ahead.
[12:29] He would wake up and go to work every day.
[12:32] Right. I mean, I guess the body can get used to just about anything, but that's wild. So from when he was in his teens until now, he's been like a ferocious alcoholic, right? Wow.
[12:48] Okay, so who did you stay with more after they separated?
[12:54] My dad um and then i remember feeling they asked us when i was like five years old who we want to live with which i've always felt like that was a horrible thing like how can you ask a five-year-old to choose that right right but i think i lived with my dad and my stepmom, um but i hated my stepmom was like abusive how so verbally, she just like hated us and was super mean. She was a little physical with my brother. I had some, we pushed each other a couple of times, but that was like when I was an adult. She just would talk bad about my mom, which we never liked. But then in high school, we chose to live with my mom because we eventually drove. and could get away from my stepmom.
[13:57] Okay. So for the most part, how much did you see your dad when you were growing up? Sorry, your mom. How much did you see your mom when you were growing up?
[14:08] It's hard to remember details like that, but I think it was more like every other weekend with my dad. Every other week in middle school, then it was every other week with my dad. a weekend with my dad in high school okay and my mom even though she was never there.
[14:35] Oh even when you were over she wasn't there.
[14:37] Yeah which our teenage selves probably we liked that because we didn't have rules and we did what we wanted because my mom worked nice.
[14:52] And how did your parents discipline you if they disciplined you or if you did something they didn't like?
[14:59] I don't remember. I feel like... I don't remember being disciplined like that. And as a teenager, that's when I started going to church by myself. I would even tell my mom, Mom, I don't want, say, my boyfriend to spend the night. I don't want to do that. But I will try. I will just fall asleep or not tell you. Like, I would tell her my tactics. But deep down, I didn't want to do that.
[15:36] Sorry, tactics for what?
[15:37] Like, I want my boyfriend to spend the night. But a part of me wanted to not live that way.
[15:47] Sure. to care and so to care about you enough to give you some structure and some rules i.
[15:52] Would tell her this is what i need you to do so i don't keep doing that and she wouldn't so i would like try to teach her how to parent me and hold me accountable but she wouldn't.
[16:04] Well she lacks self-discipline right yeah so i mean how are you supposed to discipline others if you don't have self-discipline yourself right yeah okay and your dad also was he most or were there any rules there?
[16:20] My stepmom, probably more so. Like, I just, all I remember is her making us do her homework. I'd eat our food, sit at the table for like hours. Besides that, I don't remember anything.
[16:36] Okay, so you weren't hit, people didn't call you mean names like selfish or bitch or dumb or like, so you didn't get that verbal or physical?
[16:47] My dad called me a couple names. Yeah, like on two different occasions.
[16:55] And what did he call you?
[16:57] He called me a cunt, which is cool to call like, I don't know what, an eagle.
[17:02] Okay, you're doing that laughter thing again? Like, that's terrible. I mean, I have a daughter myself, and it's incomprehensible that any father would say anything like that.
[17:12] Yeah. Awful. I think it's a laugh, maybe.
[17:16] I'm sorry?
[17:16] And it's ridiculous that stuff happened. It's probably just like a nervous laugh.
[17:25] So he called you that, and what else did he say?
[17:33] He probably did call me a bitch okay when i was a little older.
[17:41] Okay uh did you have much in interaction with your parents did they play with you did they take you to the park did they play games with you did they uh how did it work between you and your parents when you were over.
[17:53] My mom i had more fun with she would take us to the beach, and her boyfriend for 10 years he had a boat and would take us fishing and whatnot and my mom would take us to the movie theater that was fun um in high school, We went on a couple vacations with my mom with a different boyfriend at that time. I felt like my mom tried to buy our love, so she spent a lot of money on Christmas presents and whatnot.
[18:39] And where did she get the money from? Was she like a high earner?
[18:44] No. She's been bad with money. she had to file bankruptcy again so she's, I thought she would charge everything to her credit card and I actually asked her more recently and at that time she did make a little bit more money once she broke up with that guy and got her own house, so apparently she wasn't charging it but she does charge a lot of things and is kind of a hoarder and, what not okay and for my dad my favorite memories were sitting in his garage he's in his garage a lot and we got to sit there when he's fixed in the car or something or making paths with a lawnmower pretending it's the four-wheeler because we didn't have a four-wheeler in the backyard type of thing that was fun, we would talk but he wouldn't remember those talks and so there was a lot of broken promises which was the most hurtful thing, um like uh what.
[20:01] Sort of promises.
[20:03] Oh just like we'll go do this or that type of thing um, There wasn't much follow-through with that. And he wouldn't remember the conversations. We'd have a deep conversation. And I thought it was great. But... Yeah. He would forget because he was drinking.
[20:30] Does he know and admit that he's an alcoholic? And has he ever said he wants to change?
[20:38] No.
[20:40] No to which? Sorry, I was bad with my question.
[20:43] Sorry he doesn't think he has a problem because he is functioning, right okay i know he has his own trauma and like he brings stuff up when he's drunk, still of stuff like when i was three years old my mom here without permission type of thing and sorry.
[21:06] She did this is.
[21:07] Your this is your grandmother she did what like mom oh just like my hair was really long and he liked it and my mom got me a haircut stuff and my dad wasn't happy about it stuff like that okay still brings up.
[21:23] I mean not super trauma.
[21:25] No but he like to hold grudges and bring stuff up.
[21:34] Right. Okay.
[21:36] Doesn't let things go.
[21:40] Okay. All right. So did your parents give you any decent advice when you were growing up or anything that was useful on how to live or how to make decisions or how to be wise?
[21:55] No.
[21:59] Is there anything that you remember your parents telling you when you were a kid that you still find a value to this day.
[22:10] Um well they would say stuff like follow your heart and whatnot my stepmom.
[22:15] Well that's not very helpful anything like moral like i mean you're a christian woman right so you're getting morals from the church and from the bible how to live how to make good decisions did you get anything like that.
[22:27] I started going to church by myself. Like a friend invited me, um, in high school.
[22:34] Right.
[22:35] So I feel like in that way, kind of raised myself.
[22:40] Right.
[22:41] Um, yeah. Yeah, I guess I feel like it just was, like, existing. I don't learn, I didn't learn a lot from my parents.
[22:57] Okay, and, sorry, go ahead. Oh, except work hard, yeah, okay, except it being sober. Okay. All right, so, sorry, go ahead.
[23:07] I'm like, I don't ever want to drink, I hated alcohol. I hardly ever drink alcohol.
[23:19] Yeah sorry i keep i keep thinking you're about to say more than you to say yeah which is fine i just that's why i keep pausing.
[23:25] Because, jump ahead okay.
[23:31] So what happened with your dating or social life in your teens.
[23:40] My I had I had like friends I remember in like 8th grade I became friends with somebody that wasn't good for me and from there, like I guess there was, promiscuity I had well two more long-term boyfriends in high school but the first one was super messed up he was suicidal and i was trying to convince him to not kill himself like all the time, and that was you know sorry do you know.
[24:22] Why he was suicidal.
[24:22] Well he's bipolar and, just hated life well.
[24:32] But you do you know anything did he ever talk about anything that happened in his childhood that might have contributed to his unhappiness?
[24:41] Oh, I know his parents got divorced. I don't remember how old he was. Like, I met his whole family. No, besides, or his mom, I think. His dad seemed to be, like, a hard worker. His mom was kind of not level-headed, maybe into drugs. And I know he was into drugs. And was even, like, bulimic. and he's like here come in the cornfield and try to puke like i'm like i tried once i'm like what the heck am i doing this is dumb again you're.
[25:19] Doing the laughter thing which is very sad you're talking about a suicidal teenager right.
[25:23] Yeah and.
[25:26] How long did you date him for.
[25:30] Probably like two years oh my gosh on and off and.
[25:37] So from what age to what age.
[25:39] 13 to 15, probably.
[25:41] 13?
[25:43] Yeah.
[25:44] The hell were you dating at 13? Please tell me he wasn't much older.
[25:50] He was, two years older.
[25:55] So he was 15 and you were 13?
[25:58] Something like that.
[25:59] Okay, did your parents give a shit about any of this? With some suicidal guy?
[26:04] No. My mom knew. He was always over at my house.
[26:09] Oh, the guy was over at your house.
[26:11] Yeah.
[26:12] So your mom knew that you were dating when you were 13.
[26:17] Yeah.
[26:18] And did she do anything to vet this guy, talk to his family, ask you how things were going, check if he was okay?
[26:25] Never.
[26:26] What about your dad?
[26:29] No. He didn't question it.
[26:35] So they don't really give a shit, right? really I mean am I wrong no, Oh, gosh, I'm so sorry. This is just appalling. I mean, like, it's heartbreaking, my friend. Like, it's so sad to hear about. It's just absolutely, unbelievably wretched and terrible, the way you were treated as a child. The selfishness, the indifference, the lack of caring, the lack of safety. I mean, this guy could have decided to do a murder-suicide for all we know, right?
[27:14] Right. He would cut. He would cut himself.
[27:20] Oh, he said it's a time bomb.
[27:23] Yeah. When we broke up, he came to my youth group and the cops were called and I was dating somebody else. Who was a better guy, but he put like his poop in on his car and he would walk down my road because we live right.
[27:44] Poop on his car what does that mean i.
[27:47] Don't know to prank him or or.
[27:49] Oh sorry he put his poop on your boyfriend's car yeah sorry i thought you meant his car i'm like he crapped on his own hood i'm like what okay so he he he like some sort of chimpanzee he rubbed poop on your boyfriend's car yes.
[28:05] And he would walk down my road like a zombie like he was in like clearly not taking his medicine because he was bipolar and whatnot like totally psycho and i remember i talked to him again at one point and he showed me how he cut his arms like mutilated his shoulder, because he was so depressed we broke up and whatnot.
[28:39] And did he threaten you in order to get you to stay oh no so he didn't say if you leave me i'm gonna cut myself or kill myself or anything.
[28:48] No but if he hinted at that i knew that that's not my responsibility i.
[28:57] So why would this and i'm not trying to blame you at all right i'm genuinely curious right i mean why why were you with this like what drew you to him and why would you was he super good looking was there was there something that was a plus about him that I'm not able to see because I just see red flags everywhere.
[29:14] Right. I think at the time he wanted me. Nobody ever has wanted me more than he did. And I was helping him, so I thought. And encouraging him. I guess I.
[29:38] But I mean, so, but, but he was a project, right? I mean, the guy's barely hanging on to life and sanity, right?
[29:45] Totally.
[29:48] Okay. And, and your parents, extended family, aunts, uncles, like, and nobody said to you, uh, this may not be an ideal guy to be dating.
[29:59] Not that I recall.
[30:01] Okay. All right. So you stopped dating this guy at 15?
[30:07] About that. It was on and off because I was going to church. I'm like, no, this is wrong. I don't want to live this way.
[30:12] Well, the guy's half demonic, right?
[30:14] Right.
[30:16] Okay. So then you date a better guy at 15 or 16.
[30:20] Yeah. He was actually a good guy.
[30:24] And when you said promiscuity, you don't have to get into big numbers here, but was it like small, medium, or lots of, like little, medium, or lots of promiscuity?
[30:39] I don't know what you mean by that.
[30:41] Well, you said, Fred, that's like a small number of guys you slept with, a medium number or a large number.
[30:47] I didn't have intercourse with anybody, but there was, did everything else.
[30:55] Right, okay, got it.
[30:56] With two guys and then a couple others.
[30:58] I'm sorry?
[31:00] With those two boyfriends and then a couple others.
[31:04] Okay, got it. and were you drinking or doing drugs during this time never.
[31:10] Okay i've never i didn't drink until i was 22.
[31:19] Okay so the next guy when you were 15 or so how long did that one last.
[31:27] For the rest of high school so about two years.
[31:29] Okay and then did you or he go away to college or what happened at the end of high school?
[31:36] I went to this Christian program and we weren't allowed to date so we could focus and grow. And that was out of state. So I had to break up with him for that.
[31:53] And how long was that for?
[31:56] I was there for three years.
[31:59] Oh, wow. So no dating for three years.
[32:01] Well there was it was just for the first year i it was a year program but i stayed in more of a leadership position for two other years and.
[32:12] You could date then.
[32:13] I could yeah but i didn't.
[32:15] Okay so this gets you to like what 21 22 yeah.
[32:23] Um, I think 21, I, I came home or was I 20?
[32:30] And were you much in touch with your parents over this time period?
[32:34] Um, yeah. And my mom would send me money every month actually for spending. Cause it wasn't something where you could have a job actually to make money. That was a huge blessing.
[32:46] And you haven't mentioned much and I haven't asked, so that's fine, of course. but uh about your brother how how how was your relationship with your brother growing up.
[32:57] Um we were close but we fought a lot in high school we'd like there was a time we chased each other with a knife and i remember saying horrible things like i hate you i wish you wasn't my you weren't my brother after years after i asked him for forgiveness and like i obviously didn't mean that. I'm thankful for him. He would we would kind of hang out together. I wasn't really friends with his friends but he was friends like well with my boyfriends I guess.
[33:35] Sorry which boyfriend?
[33:38] Both of them actually.
[33:40] Oh so he knew about crazy suicidal guy and he was not he never said to you this might not be great?
[33:47] No. But I do, the only person that stuck up for me, so my dad and my stepmom had two kids. My one brother is nine years younger than me. And then the other one is 15 years younger than me. The one that's nine years younger. I remember telling him, so he was like, I don't know, six years old or whatever. And said, if you break my sister's heart, I'm going to beat you up. It was just a cute thing, but it meant a lot to me. And I always wished my other brother that's close in age to me would have been more protective.
[34:26] More protective? He wasn't protective at all. In fact, he knew this guy was nuts, and he was like, what, didn't warn you against him? Okay, so as a kid, other than the six-year-old, God help you, other than the six-year-old was there anyone who showed any particular care or attention or support towards you.
[34:52] My maternal grandma and grandpa they lived right next door to my mom's house.
[35:03] Oh so they kept track if you're dating and then they found out about your boyfriends.
[35:09] Well, they knew, but didn't say anything.
[35:14] Okay, I'm looking for people who actually said something.
[35:18] Nobody said anything, but my grandma, I remember, was there for me. She went to all my Beyond concerts and whatnot and was there for me, which right now, that's one person I struggle with.
[35:32] Okay, but you're dating a psycho, and nobody says anything. Nobody asks, nobody reviews, nobody goes into detail, nobody vets him, there's nothing.
[35:43] Not that I recall.
[35:44] Oh, I'm pretty sure you'd remember.
[35:47] Okay. Then no.
[35:49] So people don't care.
[35:52] Right.
[35:53] They don't care. I mean, listen, you're a mom. Can you imagine your kids start dating and you don't care who they're dating? And you don't care that they're mentally unstable? You don't care that they're bulimic and throwing up in cornfields and cutting themselves and threatening suicide. You're just like, yeah, good luck, kid. Off you go.
[36:12] It's awful.
[36:13] No, like it's staggering.
[36:18] Yeah.
[36:19] It's incomprehensible how selfish that would be on the part of every adult in the vicinity.
[36:28] Yeah.
[36:32] Have you ever talked to your parents about their deficiencies.
[36:41] Um what do you mean by that well.
[36:43] The fact that they threw you to the wolves when it came to the i mean just one of many things like why didn't you ever care who i was dating i was in serious danger.
[36:55] Not a whole lot but i've had some conversations after, going through like when my husband and i went to this marriage conference a year after we were married and a lot came to light we came back and had some intense conversations with my our parents and my grandma was one of them i had to have a conversation with, um that's when i found out about certain things about my childhood from my dad, oh the suicidal mom and stuff what you.
[37:36] Mean that your mother was drugged and suicidal.
[37:39] Yes yes that's when i found out and even though your.
[37:43] Mom confirmed any of that because you know i'm not trying to cast dispersions on your dad but sometimes in divorces you don't get the most objective stories.
[37:50] Right i every time i've tried to talk to my mom she doesn't confess anything, okay so what what.
[38:04] Negative behaviors have your parents taken responsibility for in raising you.
[38:14] Um, none.
[38:17] Okay, so you haven't had any successful conversations insofar as they've taken ownership, they've apologized, they've tried to make restitution, and so on.
[38:27] Correct. That has not happened.
[38:30] And why do you think they don't take any responsibility for anything?
[38:38] Well, one, I don't think my dad thinks he has a problem with alcohol. and well no.
[38:44] But we weren't talking about alcohol here we were talking about the fact that he just let you saunter off to date at the age of 13 with a guy who was extremely mentally unstable and potentially dangerous.
[38:59] I haven't talked about that and actually yeah i haven't thought about that aspect of growing up in a long time okay.
[39:11] So what's your relationship like with your parents at the moment.
[39:19] Um i call my mom all the time and i have recently i realized she doesn't ever call me and i've told her that it's frustrating like i want to have a relationship but a relationship goes both ways. That's why I stopped calling my sister-in-law, my brother's wife. We used to talk all the time, but that's because I would call her on my way to work when I used to work. Anyway, I'm like, oh, this relationship is one way. Let's see if she'd call me and she didn't. So I'm like, yeah, it's just annoying to put the effort. Same with my other brothers. I just stopped.
[40:03] And what about your dad?
[40:06] My dad will call me occasionally.
[40:09] What do you mean? Like how often?
[40:12] Once every other week.
[40:14] Okay.
[40:15] And he brings up almost like every time. Why don't you ever call me? Why don't you ever come over?
[40:24] Does he live far away?
[40:26] He lives 30 minutes away. And so does my mom. where my other brothers live in a way where they could just drop by and they do drop by often. I would have to plan and I have kids, so there's nap time and lunch. So are you going to have lunch? I feel awkward. Do I need to bring my own lunch? You know what I mean?
[40:53] Yeah, I know.
[40:55] This takes more planning and I can't just drop by. like my dad would love for us to do or expects us to do well.
[41:03] Isn't it easier for him to come to you, yeah and.
[41:08] How often does.
[41:09] He do that.
[41:12] He's come to a handful of the kids' birthday parties, but that's it.
[41:16] Wait, wait, wait. So you've got a kid who's five, is that right?
[41:20] Four.
[41:21] Four, sorry. So how often has your father got off his drunk ass, or hopefully not drunk ass, and come to your house to spend time with you and his grandkids?
[41:37] Probably like six times.
[41:40] Okay, that's pathetic.
[41:42] Parties, the birthday parties that we've had.
[41:45] No, no, that's pathetic. That's beyond pathetic. I mean, you need help, right?
[41:50] I do.
[41:51] What about your mom? Does she come over and help?
[41:54] She's come over and babysat just like three times when we had a doctor's appointment for another kid.
[42:01] Okay, so they still don't care.
[42:04] Right.
[42:05] So what's, I don't understand what the plus is in having them around. and i'm i'm not trying to say don't or i'm just i don't.
[42:13] Get it i've been thinking about like why do i call my mom i i used to think like she just listens to what i say she doesn't ask follow-up questions or ask how i'm doing with this or that i used to say she was such a good listener, and someone's like no she's she's like.
[42:36] A sponge there's nothing there.
[42:37] Yeah like she's just like her her body's there you know because listening you need follow-up questions and actually caring um but i do call her a lot um but i've been thinking about like why, like what if i don't call her will she actually call me uh.
[43:02] No probably not.
[43:03] Probably not unless she needs help with something because my stepdad died, two years ago my brother helps her a lot she needs to move but that's a whole other thing she is in a lot of pain herself from a car accident and, doesn't work or anything but that's a different story what's that?
[43:37] Sorry, what does she live on? Like, what's her income?
[43:42] Disability. Ever since, like, in high school. She worked a little bit after. But she was out of work since I was in high school.
[43:54] Oh, she hasn't worked since you were in high school?
[43:59] Yeah, she was in a car accident when I was in high school and then didn't work then. But she did work a little bit.
[44:06] Years later, uh okay okay so she hasn't really had a job in quite some time, oh ah excellent i'm sure the taxpayers are thrilled okay um and do you think she could work or do you think uh it's uh uh valid she can't possibly find any way to make any money.
[44:32] Oh i'm sure she could well she's in so much pain i was thinking like maybe she could do an office job or something but sitting would even hurt for a long time she takes pain pills she is addicted to pain pills but she goes to a pain clinic and they monitor it i don't think she abuses it because she.
[44:55] Has well look come on i mean i don't obviously i don't know anything about it and you know her infinitely better than i do but if somebody's addicted to pain pills and claims to be in constant pain my radar goes up.
[45:07] Right um i do believe she's in a lot of pain because she doesn't complain a whole lot but when you're there she'll almost like fall over, because like her hip just gives out so you had a botched hip replacement has all this weird stuff with her back and goes to doctors and stuff all the time.
[45:34] All right i mean yeah it could be to get more pain meds but okay i mean that's neither here nor there we can't really do much about that okay and so uh yeah so sort of help me understand the plus of having people who don't care about you and really don't care about your kids help me understand the plus of having them uh in your life.
[45:56] It's just exhausting i guess there isn't, a boss.
[46:05] I mean, they're both addicts, right?
[46:08] Yeah.
[46:11] So you're not really dealing with the person, you're just dealing with the addiction, right?
[46:16] Yeah.
[46:17] I mean, they're selfish, right? They don't come over and help you. They're not invested in your kids, right? They didn't protect you from bad boyfriends, right? I mean, they were addicts throughout your childhood. So, again, I'm open to hearing the case, but I don't see the plus.
[46:37] Right. Yes, just because they're my mom and dad. But that's not a reason, a good reason.
[46:48] Well, the way that I formulate things, we can only love virtue. The only thing we can love is virtue. If we're virtuous, right? I mean, it's in the Christian context, like, we love the manifestation of virtue, right? We love, in a sense, the God or the virtue in the person.
[47:12] Okay.
[47:13] And would you say that your parents are virtuous?
[47:18] No.
[47:19] Okay. Would you say that there's elements of corruption there?
[47:24] Yes.
[47:25] Okay. So if they're not virtuous and they are corrupt, they can't be loved. They can't love themselves, they can't love others, and they can't be loved. Like, it's tough to be good, right? It's hard to be good. You know, the high road is the hard road, right? So it's hard to be good, but the reason that we try to be good is so that we can participate in the great glory called love, right?
[47:55] Mm-hmm.
[47:56] And if your parents are not virtuous, and in fact have elements of corruption, then they can't love or be loved. And that would explain why they're fundamentally indifferent to you and to their grandkids. Because the price we pay for corruption is being barred from the beauty of love. And it's not so much that they're sinners, I suppose, like we're all sinners, right? But it's that they do not acknowledge their sin and they do not repent. Is that fair?
[48:40] Yes.
[48:40] I mean, your dad's been drinking a dozen or more beers a day at his height and still drinks, and yet will not admit that he's an alcoholic, right?
[48:51] Right.
[48:51] So God himself cannot forgive a sinner who does not repent. And to repent, you must first acknowledge the sin, right?
[49:04] Right.
[49:05] And your parents broke their vows to each other. They broke their vows to their children. They broke their vows to God. They broke their vows to virtue. And that's why they don't care. Right. I mean, we'd be good so we can, we pursue virtue so that we can partake in the glory of love. And sort of my major concern when I got your message was, okay, what love is surrounding this woman's life? What virtues are surrounding this woman's life? And with regards to your parents, you know, if we put our hearts in the care of people who don't care, our hearts die.
[49:55] Right?
[49:56] I mean, if you give your baby to someone who has no interest in taking care of a baby, after a certain amount of time, your baby's not doing very well, right? And if you give your heart to people who don't care, your heart starts to falter and fail.
[50:12] Yeah. Yeah.
[50:17] All right. Sorry, go ahead.
[50:21] I feel that with my husband.
[50:24] I'm aware of that, and that's sort of what I'm building to, but the stuff comes before the husband, right?
[50:30] Right.
[50:32] So how old were you when you met your husband, and how did you meet him?
[50:39] Oh, I guess one thing I didn't see in there, I was married before for about three years. when i was 22 or 23 okay and, he basically just left me um like he was a christian too we talked about it and then like literally a month after we got married he's like fell away from wanting to follow jesus i'm like okay i made this commitment there wasn't abuse or anything like that i'm like well it was just like roommates um sorry i didn't.
[51:20] Quite follow that you got married and within a month of getting married he fell away from.
[51:24] Following jesus oh.
[51:28] Did he become an atheist.
[51:31] Um basically i guess or.
[51:35] Was there anything in particular that happened.
[51:38] He was actually going to bible college and unfortunately i don't know one thing that seemed to happen is a professor asked him what jesus meant to you which there's no wrong answer to your own story you know um and he was told that that is wrong, um sorry he was told that.
[52:00] His answer as to what jesus means to him is wrong.
[52:03] Yes okay and i messed him up which it was horrible of the professor that's what he told me and you know the timeline would make sense or it was that he had just turned 21 and he's like we moved because I went to college with him it was out of state got married all the changes like holy crap what am I doing I am not fully developed not that he was thinking that but I learned that you're not fully developed till what you're 25 um he could have it could have been all the things, um but anyway eventually he's like you can go find your christian guy like i'm done like we're we filed for a divorce together and i tried like that's we did go to counseling and the counselor was like no this isn't going to work if you're not going to decide to do this that and he's like nope and so we went and filed for divorce that day it was sorry how long were.
[53:04] You married for it.
[53:05] Was less than three years.
[53:09] Sorry, but wasn't it a month after, a month into the marriage, he didn't want to be a Christian. And listen, the idea that some professor asked him a question and that completely cratered his faith is not particularly believable.
[53:21] Yeah.
[53:23] That's probably an excuse. But anyway, I mean, so why were you hoping to work things out or did it just take a long time to get divorced?
[53:32] Yeah. I'm like, I think this commitment was amusing or anything. like okay um i didn't feel like it was grounds for divorce so i was like okay let's how do i live my life and it was just like roommates but i realized he was probably addicted to porn and, masturbation and looking at the signs after i've gotten divorced, um by.
[54:00] By signs do you mean browser history what do you mean.
[54:04] No he wouldn't ever let me on his laptop or phone i'm like what if i need to, use your phone in emergency or whatever you can use either you can call an emergency you can call 9-1-1 from any phone even if it's locked oh.
[54:19] But you don't you.
[54:20] Didn't think he was cheating i didn't think he was cheating no but but realizing well my current husband chooses is torn of masturbation after seeing those signs and that is known i'm like oh my first husband probably was too and because that's because.
[54:42] You guys didn't have a sex life you said you were just like roommates right.
[54:45] We occasionally had sex and i would i would like have to beg him i'm like i shouldn't have to beg my what 22 year old husband right right um and he even like you're supposed to be begging him for a break.
[55:02] Right. Give it a rest. Right. I need to heal. Right. Okay.
[55:08] Yeah. So he's like, you take care of it yourself. And so it's rejection there. And that was confusing. Okay. Makes no sense. But.
[55:22] And how long did you date your first husband before you got married?
[55:30] It wasn't long. It was like eight months, but he was in a different state.
[55:37] And I assume the same pattern happened that your family didn't vet him at all.
[55:44] Correct. Like we met his family and whatnot. There was one person from church who told me that she doesn't think it's a good idea the only one person but when i got divorced everybody oh i knew it wasn't.
[56:02] Gonna work oh god yeah i have that's that's appalling that's terrible.
[56:07] Everybody i'm like why didn't you say anything like why didn't you say anything so it was frustrating that there was only one person and i wasn't even that close close to her she was you know just an older person um who's who's shot from a distance yeah that's not good.
[56:25] And looking back did you sort of see any were there red flags that you missed.
[56:31] Oh yeah what was i thinking, well we should have been in person to date um and i well if i would have dated longer i would have realized how crazy his family history is um, Yeah, I think I was just desperate for love. I wanted to be married so bad.
[57:05] Right. Okay, so you get divorced in your mid-20s, right?
[57:12] Yeah.
[57:12] Okay, and when did you, how old were you when you, was there anything substantial between that and your current husband?
[57:21] Yeah my biggest regrets actually i because even well like we we had to wait half a year to actually the divorce to be finalized in our state and i'm like the whole like a lot i was still like we can go to counseling we can make it work i was trying he's like stop asking me to fix it like we're done like go date other people and whatnot and i was like screw it and, i slept with a handful of people and people like in my workplace and stuff like that took advantage of me my vulnerable place and sorry took advantage of me hang on hang on hang.
[58:14] On hang Hang on. We just slipped into an interesting narrative there. So you wanted to sleep with men, but they took advantage of you.
[58:25] Yeah.
[58:27] Help me understand how that works.
[58:32] I was not in a good place in my mind.
[58:37] Well, you wanted to sleep with men, whatever the reason, right?
[58:43] What's that?
[58:44] I mean, you did want to sleep with men. I mean, we can say for good or bad reasons, right? But you wanted to sleep with men, and then you say they took advantage of you.
[58:57] Well, I wanted to be wanted, and that's how they wanted me. And now looking back, or I knew that they were taking advantage of me. They had no want in a relationship. They just wanted to have sex.
[59:14] Right. And you just wanted to feel wanted, so didn't you use them as much? You used them to feel good about yourself, and they used you for sex. Why is that not mutual using?
[59:26] Yep. I guess that's true.
[59:28] I'm trying to keep you away from the victim side of things. As a kid, as you were a kid, when you were a kid, total victim. 100%, 150% victim as a kid. But you start cruising into a quarter century, it's a little tougher to pull the victim card, right? Unless some guy jumps out in an alley with a knife, right? I mean, because, and the reason I'm saying that, and this may be a bit of a foreshadow, that in your letter to me, there's a lot of victim stuff there. And I'm going to try and guide you away from the victim stuff because you are an independent free will moral agent, as we all are, right? And again, not as a kid, right? As a kid, you were a victim, right? But as an adult, I'm going to try and keep you away. I'm going to place myself between you and the victim cliff as much as possible and try and sort of shoo you back to the free will personal responsibility side just so you know that's that's coming okay, all right so you slept with a handful i like you slept with a handful of people that's like hopefully not at the same time and hopefully of roughly the same gender but okay uh so uh you slept with a bunch guys yeah you slept with a bunch of people and then what.
[1:00:42] Um i was also smoking pot at that time with my brothers and.
[1:00:54] These are your younger brothers, yeah okay hopefully not the six-year-old who said he'd beat up your boyfriend if he broke your heart.
[1:01:05] Oh well he no he the one is nine years younger than me and the other one was 15 years younger than me.
[1:01:12] Okay so if you're in your mid-20s though isn't he mid to late teens yeah.
[1:01:19] The youngest and.
[1:01:20] No no the youngest would be 10 right the the one who's if you're 25 then the nine-year-old is 16 okay yeah so how old were your siblings when you were smoking pot with them.
[1:01:38] I guess you just did the math.
[1:01:40] Oh, come on. Tell me you weren't getting a kid in his mid-teens into pot.
[1:01:46] No, he was actually the one smoking pot. It was his pot.
[1:01:51] Okay, so you were participating in smoking pot with someone in his mid-teens.
[1:01:57] Yes.
[1:01:58] Contributing to the delinquency of a minor.
[1:02:02] Yeah, it's awful.
[1:02:03] Okay, so what the hell? What? Why would you do that? He's 16.
[1:02:17] I guess he was doing it anyway.
[1:02:19] No, no, no, no. Come on. Come on, Christian lady. Is that an excuse?
[1:02:25] No.
[1:02:27] And again, I'm not trying to come down on you like a ton of bricks, but I'm trying to follow this way. Why you would help a kid smoke drugs or participate in a kid smoking drugs or anything like that?
[1:02:45] I don't know it was awful.
[1:02:47] Well it was awful it's not an expert we mean we seek to understand don't we not just condemn because condemnation doesn't bring understanding.
[1:02:58] Which i struggle with a lot.
[1:03:00] Okay so it was awful doesn't explain anything right So I'm trying to figure out, you've got a 16-year-old kid, right? Barely able to drive, and you're lighting up with him, right? When you're, what, 26? 25?
[1:03:20] Oh, my God.
[1:03:22] Okay.
[1:03:23] And my mom actually did it with us once.
[1:03:28] Okay.
[1:03:31] And... I'm embarrassed to confess this next part. You know, that psycho person I dated when I was 13.
[1:03:43] I do.
[1:03:48] He came over. I don't know how we got reconnected. We lived right down the road. And he came over and also did it with us and brought other drugs that we didn't do, but he did. Thank you.
[1:04:08] Right now where was your faith and prayer and christianity at this time in your life.
[1:04:15] I just said screw it.
[1:04:17] Well you didn't kind of the devil did and you listened right.
[1:04:23] I was in rebellion.
[1:04:25] Okay but why if you were in rebellion why drag a child along, Why, instead of talking to your brother and saying, you know, listen, mom's a drug addict, dad's an alcoholic, you can't touch this stuff, talk to me about what's going on, let's see if we can sort this out. You're like, sounds great, let's do it together with mom and crazy guy. I mean, you're almost a decade older, you're supposed to show some moral leadership, right?
[1:05:02] Right.
[1:05:03] So, again, I'm not trying to condemn you or anything. I'm genuinely seeking to understand, like, what the heck was going on here?
[1:05:13] I was in a really bad place.
[1:05:16] Well, that's by definition, right? But what? Like, you keep not trying to understand your decision process. Oh, well, I slept with guys, but they took advantage of me. well i i enabled my my my kid brother's drug use but i was in a really bad place like that doesn't explain anything the question is why would you make these decisions.
[1:05:42] I don't know.
[1:05:43] Well you do you may not know it consciously but you know because we don't act randomly right.
[1:05:50] Yeah you know.
[1:05:57] I mean, it's very destructive for your brother, right?
[1:06:00] Yes.
[1:06:01] So why would you contribute to harming your brother in this way? There's a cruelty in it, right? And a sort of destruction, like you're bowling against his soul kind of thing.
[1:06:15] I clearly wasn't loving him.
[1:06:18] Well, you're harming him, right?
[1:06:20] Yeah. I have since asked him for forgiveness for allowing that to happen.
[1:06:28] Sorry what do you mean allowing it to happen this language you use is fascinating what do you mean allowing it to happen, you willingly participated allowing it to happen is, there's an avalanche and you don't warn your brother that's just allowing it to happen but you were the avalanche in a way right, You didn't allow it to happen. You actively participated.
[1:07:00] Were you miserable and wanted to spread the misery or what?
[1:07:06] Anyway. They were already doing it.
[1:07:13] So you stopped them. You don't participate and encourage.
[1:07:23] I guess it looked fun, and I wanted to do it too.
[1:07:30] But you already were doing it, because you already were smoking the drugs, right?
[1:07:37] Yeah, I mean, like when I first did it.
[1:07:40] No, no, I'm talking about when you did it with your brother.
[1:07:44] Yeah. Like, they would do it. Right. And it looked fine.
[1:07:56] Right.
[1:07:59] Apparently thinking, who cares about the consequences? Really not thinking or caring about anybody else but myself.
[1:08:12] Yeah, I mean, these are just kind of cliches. Like, there's usually a deeper answer to that.
[1:08:16] I don't know. I don't know what to say.
[1:08:20] Well, okay, so why does the devil corrupt mankind? Because he hates God, right? So maybe you're secretly angry at your parents and corrupt their children as vengeance.
[1:08:35] That's deep.
[1:08:36] Well, I mean, it's biblical, right? God, like, the devil can't kill God, so the devil counsels women to kill their offspring, right?
[1:08:47] Right. Right.
[1:08:52] So maybe the devil is having you harm your parents by encouraging the addictions of their offspring. You corrupted me, I'll corrupt your kids in return.
[1:09:12] Hmm. I never thought anything of the sort.
[1:09:18] Well, this is why I'm sort of trying to understand where your anger at your parents has gone. Like, where is it? It's somewhere, because you can't be that cruelly treated and neglected without getting angry.
[1:09:33] Yeah.
[1:09:34] Now I think it's coming out against your husband. And of course, I'm not saying your husband is behaving well, but the anger is somewhere, right? Because it's what your friend said. Your friend said maybe you're angry at your parents and it's coming out in other ways, right?
[1:09:45] Yeah, because I yell and get frustrated at my kids, and that's where my anger is directed.
[1:09:52] Right, so you're nice to your parents who harmed you, and you're a little nasty to your kids who love you.
[1:09:59] Yeah.
[1:10:00] So this is an inversal of values, right? So the people who've done you the most harm, you're the most nice to, and the people who've done you the least harm, you're the least nice to.
[1:10:09] Yeah.
[1:10:10] So this is the opposite of what goodness would be, right?
[1:10:14] Mm-hmm.
[1:10:16] Okay, so for how long did you do drugs with your little brother?
[1:10:20] Oh, it was just a handful of times.
[1:10:23] And then what? Did you try to get him out of drugs, or did you say, we've got to stop this, or this is unhealthy, or...
[1:10:34] Well, I met with my pastor, and I told him, he said, you have a choice. You can stop smoking pot, or you can follow Jesus. That's your choice. And I chose Jesus.
[1:10:53] Okay, and did Jesus tell you to go back and help your little brother, who you participated in corrupting?
[1:11:01] I talked to them.
[1:11:05] Sorry them but you didn't obviously you didn't do drugs with your 10 year old brother.
[1:11:10] He was there at one point but he didn't do anything.
[1:11:14] So he was there watching you do drugs with his older brother yeah oh my sister what the heck what were you doing, You've got a 10-year-old kid in the room and you're doing drugs with his brother. I mean, what do you think of that?
[1:11:49] It's horrible.
[1:11:52] I mean, it's appalling, right?
[1:11:54] Yeah.
[1:12:01] How's your youngest brother's life turned out as a whole.
[1:12:07] Um I don't talk to him a whole lot I have talked to him a few times about that and told him I'm sorry, um yeah he just he works and hangs out with his girlfriend he doesn't come to anything I invite him to or text back much. Okay.
[1:12:32] Do you know if he was able to escape the addiction that has plagued your family?
[1:12:38] Probably not, because like him and my other brother, they always like were vaping and stuff. And I think they vape and whatnot. And I think him and his girlfriend smoke, smoke weed.
[1:12:54] Oh gosh, I'm so sorry. and you had a bit of a hand in that right I did and have you I mean has he ever accepted an apology or restitution or anything like that yeah, so you've tried to apologize but he won't listen, what's that sorry so you've tried to apologize but he won't listen.
[1:13:18] No he he said he forgives me.
[1:13:27] And is he a Christian as well?
[1:13:30] No. Okay.
[1:13:36] All right. Sorry, go ahead.
[1:13:38] Like, oh, that's okay. It's, you know, he didn't say the words, I forgive you, but.
[1:13:46] And you don't really have a relationship with him.
[1:13:48] My apology. Can you ask that last question?
[1:13:54] Yeah, sorry. You don't really have a relationship with him, right?
[1:13:57] Not so much i keep trying just doesn't text that right okay.
[1:14:07] So then you sort of 26 or so and sorry there was something significant between your first marriage and your current marriage.
[1:14:17] Yeah all that okay.
[1:14:20] But but no significant romantic relationship between your first husband and your second husband is that right?
[1:14:27] No significant well I dated somebody for a few months who was a decent guy besides, the horrible people that I slept with and what.
[1:14:41] Happened with the decent guy?
[1:14:49] We just decided it wasn't going to work That was when I was trying to follow Jesus more, and our values weren't exactly the same.
[1:14:59] Was he not a Christian?
[1:15:01] Well, he's Catholic, so it's a little different.
[1:15:07] Right. Okay, so then how old were you when you met your husband?
[1:15:17] 29.
[1:15:20] Okay, so there was a couple of years there where you slept around a little bit, you dated a little bit, you did some drugs, and then were you mostly clean when you met your husband, or how was that?
[1:15:30] Yeah, well, it didn't seem like it was that long. Sorry, maybe I made a mistake.
[1:15:40] You said 26 to 29, or 25 to 29?
[1:15:45] No, I don't remember. Well, I was married for three years. Maybe 28 when I met my husband.
[1:15:55] Okay.
[1:15:56] It seemed like a year, year and a half by the time I officially got divorced.
[1:16:03] Okay. All right. So where did you meet him?
[1:16:08] I was friends with his cousin. Or I am friends with his cousin.
[1:16:13] Okay. And what was it that drew you to him?
[1:16:19] Um, I felt like, okay, so leading up to meeting him, I just had a feeling, okay, I was talking to this one guy and actually slept with him a couple of times. And I felt like I needed to cut off that relationship to meet my current husband. Because I had a feeling it was, it was important and it was a bad relationship anyway. It wasn't really a relationship. with the other guy. So I met him. It was just a game night.
[1:16:58] Sorry, what does game night mean?
[1:17:00] Oh, just playing board games.
[1:17:03] Okay.
[1:17:09] Yeah, it was kind of awkward, because the cousins, brother's sisters and her friends were all like drunk there and being obnoxious or and we knew that the game night was for us to meet anyway it was just embarrassing we didn't, talk a whole lot and we walked out at the same time didn't say anything i'm like what the heck and a month went by and then we hung out again just the cousin and her husband, and connected more but i'm like why didn't he call me why didn't he like reach out i felt i don't know and so i went back to the guy a couple times i was talking to before that i, said I wasn't going to talk to again but I did you mean you slept with it a couple times yeah, and then cut it off again before that second time I met my husband.
[1:18:19] I'm still trying to figure out your relationship not with these men but with Jesus, it kind of seems to come and go.
[1:18:27] I was, in that time it was, it's a horrible example that's not yeah I was totally living in sin and rebellion.
[1:18:44] Okay but why were you.
[1:18:46] Living in sin and rebellion.
[1:18:47] I mean you've dedicated I assume you gave up on the weed to dedicate your life to following Jesus right so.
[1:18:54] Why do you keep.
[1:18:54] Breaking up with Jesus I'm trying to sort of follow that right.
[1:18:58] Good question or a good way to word it That clearly was what was happening.
[1:19:04] Okay, but why?
[1:19:12] I feel like I was just desperate for somebody tangible to want me.
[1:19:20] Oh, like to want you sexually?
[1:19:23] No, not necessarily sexually.
[1:19:25] No, but you slept with the guy.
[1:19:28] Yeah.
[1:19:29] So what do you mean to want you? Do you mean to desire you, to lust after you, to want you sexually? That's what I'm understanding. Maybe I'm missing something.
[1:19:39] Well that's not what i really wanted but what is it the saying like girls not that it's right but girls give sex to get love and guys give love to get sex um not right and it doesn't work you can't you.
[1:19:58] Can't get love by screwing a.
[1:20:01] Corrupt man right i mean you know that's not Yes. But maybe I just wanted somebody to hold me.
[1:20:16] Well, okay. I mean, that's what friends and family are for, right? You want a hug, go talk to friends and family, right? You don't have to go and put out for a corrupt guy, right?
[1:20:29] Right.
[1:20:32] Because it never worked right offering up sex from your teens onwards never worked to get you love right so the fact that you'd still be trying it more than 10 years later is not like it would indicate that you've learned nothing, in fact in fact giving up sex in order to quote get love or get attention is going to keep love at bay it's going to keep love away, it's true because like a good virtuous godly man is going to look at that and say well she's kind of wallowing in sin and she's got the rebellious spirit and she doesn't listen to Jesus and she doesn't pray for guidance and she just does whatever the fleshly heart wants. You can't be trusted, you know, with sorrow and not with condemnation, but no, right?
[1:21:16] Right.
[1:21:17] So you're actually, you're actively keeping love away, right?
[1:21:21] True.
[1:21:23] And do you also know why Do you also know why You Could not get a good man in your life In your 20s.
[1:21:36] Because my mind wasn't My mind is all messed up And I wasn't healed and.
[1:21:43] Dealing No no no that's all psychobabble No it's not that It's because okay let's say that I don't know what's your favorite male name, what's your favorite male name.
[1:21:57] I don't know what you mean.
[1:21:59] Well what's the male name that you think is Brock I don't know what's the male name that you find the most attractive.
[1:22:07] I don't know.
[1:22:08] Just pick one.
[1:22:14] I don't know, because I don't want to see somebody like that I know.
[1:22:18] Oh, right. Okay. So, okay, Aragorn. You ever watch Lord of the Rings?
[1:22:22] No.
[1:22:23] No? Okay. Deadpool. I don't know. Like, okay, let's say Chad. Okay, I'm just going to go with Chad. If you want to pick one, I'll pick a cliched name. Okay, so Chad, right? Now, Chad is like the Fabio of moral virtues. Rippling chest, long blonde hair, piercing blue eyes, triple jaw, right? You name it, right? And Chad comes into your life like a hurricane of goodness, right? And he's a godly man, and he loves virtue, and so on, right? And then Chad meets your parents. And Chad finds out about your childhood, right? How your mom was smoking while she was pregnant, doing drugs, and suicidal, and your dad was an alcoholic, and they didn't care about you, and they didn't protect you, and they tossed you to the wolves, and they don't phone you and they didn't warn you about any dangers in the world and they left you to fend for yourself as a little girl, right? What is Chad going to think of your parents when he finds out about the truth of your history?
[1:23:27] Not think very highly of them.
[1:23:29] Will Chad want your parents in his life?
[1:23:33] No.
[1:23:34] Can you love someone and also love the people who did that person the most harm?
[1:23:43] That'd be very difficult.
[1:23:44] It's impossible it's impossible you cannot love someone and also love the people who've done them the most harm especially if they're unrepentant right so your parents don't want a quality man in your life because a quality man in your life will turn his laser virtue eyes on your parents, and scald the flesh from their bones. And it's not just your parents. How about your grandparents? How about aunts and uncles? How about extended family? How about your friends as a whole? How many of them can pass a rigorous moral examination?
[1:24:37] No one in my family.
[1:24:39] Right. So the reason why you had to have trashy men around you in your 20s was because they wouldn't question any of your primary, quote, relationships.
[1:24:52] Hmm.
[1:24:59] And you can't be genuinely loved, because if you are genuinely loved, the hollowness and emptiness of your other relationships will be completely clear to you, to the detriment and disadvantage of others, your parents and extended family and friendships and so on, right? If you were genuinely loved, then the vapid emptiness of these other, quote, relationships would be genuinely clear to you. So you avoid love, genuine love, and you avoid the virtue necessary for generating love and sharing love. you avoid Chad so that you can still be exploited or other people want you to avoid Chad so they can continue to exploit you and get things from you without having to be good themselves.
[1:25:56] Chad comes along and says wait, hang on your parents let you date a crazy guy, your parents didn't protect you your parents didn't seem to love you they didn't teach you anything you were unparented, Honor thy mother and thy father doesn't mean honor thy sperm donor and egg donor it means honor those who actually parent and your parents did not parent, Your parents chose drugs and alcohol over you and virtue Yes.
[1:26:39] Okay, so you go back to the bad guy a couple of times while your husband-to-be is still floating around, and then you get together with your cousin and her spouse, his spouse, and then your husband-to-be is around, and what happens then?
[1:27:02] And like the third time we hung out with them, we were just playing disc golf or whatnot. And then they kind of ditched us. And we went to a coffee shop and then walked around the park and went out to eat. So it kind of turned into our first date and told each other our life stories. and it just felt like we just knew we were going to get married. We didn't say that then.
[1:27:35] Well, I mean, you were 29?
[1:27:38] Yeah.
[1:27:39] Yeah, so 30's coming around the corner and you want to settle down, right?
[1:27:44] Yeah.
[1:27:45] It's a fairly typical story. I'm not saying you're a typical person, but it's a fairly typical story that a woman dates badly in her teens and her 20s and then wants the quote nice guy when she's pushing 30 right.
[1:27:57] Yeah i i was actually really thankful my first husband um asked for a divorce when he did so maybe i can have kids that i've always dreamed of and people are like or when i was married with my first husband he's he's like we're not having kids um sorry he said you didn't want to have kids.
[1:28:21] When you were married like did you not talk about that beforehand.
[1:28:24] He did we're like we're gonna have two kids we're gonna raise them this way and that way and whatnot and so when he fell away from jesus or whatever is all the things went out the window and he's like nope we're not having kids and all the things i'm thankful i didn't end up having kids with him but i'm thankful he asked for a divorce when he did because I was young enough to get married and have kids. Okay.
[1:28:52] Okay, so how long did it take for you guys to get married after you met?
[1:28:58] It was pretty quick, like five months.
[1:29:02] Oh, wow. Okay. All right. And did you vet him at all? Or were there any red flags or any issues that you were concerned about? Is he roughly your age?
[1:29:14] A year older.
[1:29:15] A year older. Okay. So he's 30, 29. And when you date, were there any concerns or you met his family or you know about his childhood and his history? And were there any red flags that you were concerned about?
[1:29:29] Um not with his family i love his family or his mother or my mother-in-law's a dream come true she they love jesus and she's probably prayed for him more than anybody else she's ever prayed for uh because he was a rebellious kid um i didn't really know that then um but the red flag i remember like he almost didn't want to date me because I was married before, he felt like even though he's been, looking at porn since he was like 13 which his parents didn't know I've talked to his mom about it.
[1:30:13] Sorry his parents didn't know I'm not sure what that I mean why would that matter I mean it's their job anyway it's their job to know it's their job to know yeah it's their job to know, right they're providing the internet access everybody knows the internet is full of sexual imagery it's their job to know they can't claim that they're not responsible because they didn't know it's their you understand you put parental controls on you talk to your kids about the dangers you you make sure that they understand right you you don't give them a tablet or you give them a lockdown tablet you review their tablet usage you get like it's their job to know, But they make this excuse like we didn't know. If that's bull, that's total bull.
[1:31:04] My mother-in-law, which it doesn't sit right with me. I've talked to my mother-in-law about everything. We're really close. She thinks that my father-in-law has never struggled with porn and doesn't understand and wants to be there for my husband, but doesn't really know how, because he's just like oblivious to the world and those things.
[1:31:28] No, but it's not. It's not. Come on. Come on. These are all just excuses. You don't have the choice to be oblivious to the world as a parent.
[1:31:37] Right?
[1:31:38] You have to, okay, you research, right? Even if you didn't grow up, of course, with all this internet sexual content, right? You, oh, what are the big dangers facing kids these days? And what's going to come up? Porn. You do your research. It's your job. you can't be oh I don't know I'm just an old guy I don't know that's not an option like it's seriously not an option, yeah, but they say that they pull this boomer ignorance nonsense I guess well no don't guess tell me I don't want to be unfair.
[1:32:25] Yeah, yeah they should have known they shouldn't have been a computer in his room or whatever he had like this portable dvd player he would get dvds from so that's not internet, he finds a way around things even if it's not actual porn.
[1:32:46] Well then you just take it away right yeah, were there any other ways in which his uh he was neglected as a kid.
[1:32:58] I just know his dad worked a lot. So I think and was homeschooled until high school. His siblings are, um, his sister is like four years older and then brother is like six years older. So I don't think they played with him a ton. Well, they were in school doing their own thing when he was, At the time when he wanted to be with him. Anyway, so he's just stuck at home a lot with his mom. He says how she was on the phone with her friends all the time.
[1:33:41] So he was decluttered.
[1:33:46] I guess he might say that.
[1:33:48] Well, no, I'm happy to hear counter-examples. But if his dad's working all the time, his mom's on the phone, and he's just rotten away in his room with a computer and, what, video games and porn, that's neglect, isn't it?
[1:34:04] I suppose.
[1:34:05] No, no, don't suppose. I'm trying to get some facts here. Don't give me all this fog. I don't want to be unfair.
[1:34:11] He would, like... um build a bunch of stuff then that's how he became really innovative and like he fixes stuff machines and whatnot and learned how to do that in his downtime.
[1:34:30] So i don't see how that answers the question of neglect.
[1:34:36] Well i don't i know they always liked his stuff as family he went to the cabin and stuff like that and so he did have time, with his dad fishing and, yeah, I guess on the day to day he worked a lot.
[1:35:01] Okay and how long have you known your husband for.
[1:35:07] We just had our seven year anniversary.
[1:35:10] Okay so seven and a half years right you've together five months.
[1:35:13] You got married.
[1:35:13] So so okay, and so there were you didn't see any particular red flags when.
[1:35:21] You were dating well okay so he went to i found out he was looking at porn and masturbating and i was also, masturbating that started from my first husband saying take care of it yourself, um and he went to this men's conference that was heavily sorry.
[1:35:51] How when was this.
[1:35:52] When we were dating when.
[1:35:54] You were dating okay so he goes to men's conference and how did you know about the addiction.
[1:35:58] We talked we must have talked about it because my friend told us about this ministry that deals with sexual trauma it was focused a lot on on dealing with that okay, sexual stuff and he was at the conference and he called me he's like we're done masturbating we're not going to do that because we would like do it on the phone um we did have sex before we were married um which i know like taught us to not trust each other if we couldn't wait that tiny bit so that's a red flag um, But, you know, he went to the conference and a lot came to light and he confessed all these things and it was heartbreaking.
[1:36:54] Oh, do you mean about his early exposure to this material?
[1:36:59] Yeah.
[1:37:01] But you said sexual trauma was there, and we don't have to get into details because I know he's not on the call, but were there other, did he experience other kinds of sexual trauma other than the material he was exposed to?
[1:37:15] Oh, no, not that I know of. Okay, got it.
[1:37:22] Okay, so that was a red flag. You said sex before marriage. I don't know. You're both in your, like, he's 29. See, he's 30, you're 29. You both have had a bunch of sexual partners before. It might seem a little bit precious to wait until marriage at that point.
[1:37:37] Yeah.
[1:37:38] But, okay. So the only red flag was the pornography, right? Yeah. and nothing else.
[1:37:49] Um well now I feel like he felt like he deserved a virgin who wasn't married so that mentality like I was already not good enough for him um.
[1:38:06] Sorry and when did.
[1:38:07] That show up when we were dating okay so he said.
[1:38:11] I want an unmarried virgin and you're neither and you were like let's go ahead anyway.
[1:38:15] He said that's like the mindset he was struggling with but he knew that wasn't true or right but like in his flesh that's what he felt like he deserved and.
[1:38:29] Had he dated a lot of women before you.
[1:38:31] Um there was like one person in like high school and they didn't even date they just like touched each other a little bit and it was like a crush so.
[1:38:42] What so So you were his first sexual partner, is that right?
[1:38:45] Well, he hired a prostitute once to try to do stuff with him, but it didn't work.
[1:38:51] What?
[1:38:53] With his friend that was a couple years older. He's the one that exposed him to a lot of things like drinking and...
[1:38:58] Hang on, sorry. Sorry, our good Christian guy hired a prostitute?
[1:39:03] Yeah.
[1:39:05] When did you find out about that?
[1:39:08] When we were dating.
[1:39:11] What did you think of that?
[1:39:15] Well, it's disgusting. He said he wasn't able to even get a boner because he didn't have a connection with her. So that's why it didn't work. But that doesn't change anything because it happened.
[1:39:36] I mean, it changes something. It lowers the chance of an STD.
[1:39:41] Yes.
[1:39:41] Okay. All right. And so, but he was a virgin when you married him.
[1:39:48] Yeah.
[1:39:48] And did he know about the extent of your sexual history?
[1:39:53] Every detail.
[1:39:54] Every detail you talked about before you got married.
[1:39:57] Yeah. That was a part of like that ministry talking about like.
[1:40:01] So you were even telling him that after we did the first game night between that and you asking me out again, I went and slept with the bad guy.
[1:40:10] Yeah.
[1:40:11] Wow. Wow. okay so um he he then was uh fine to go forward right yeah okay all right so then you get married and how are things at the beginning of the marriage.
[1:40:31] Pretty good for like a year, And then at our one-year anniversary, we went to that same ministry, but the marriage conference, and dealt with a lot of stuff, more like bringing everything to the light, like specific people.
[1:40:55] Sorry, what stuff? I mean, you'd already talked about a lot of stuff. You knew about his childhood. He knew about your childhood. You knew about his addiction. He knew about the men you'd slept with. I mean, what stuff is coming up at a year? or.
[1:41:06] It's um like naming every person he's looked at porn to and like.
[1:41:14] Sorry naming every person i don't know what that means yeah.
[1:41:19] Like i masturbated to this actress and.
[1:41:24] Oh sorry so so hang on so so this is after the marriage that his pornography consumption That's what he's talking about?
[1:41:33] It's just digging deeper. I knew about that.
[1:41:38] No, no, sorry. But what I'm talking about is that was this stuff before you got married or was this stuff that he was talking about after you got married? Before.
[1:41:47] It was from me.
[1:41:48] Okay, so what's the, I mean, I don't quite understand the point of this exercise. I mean, if he stopped using pornography because he's happily married, why would this stuff all need to be dug up and exhumed?
[1:42:00] There was still well we're still still struggling with different mindsets and digging deeper to healing i guess breaking soul ties i don't know if you've heard of that um because every time there's an encounter you create like a bond to that person and we just break it like in the spiritual realm huh you know that's a whole other thing okay i mean it seems a.
[1:42:27] Little bit like a shaming struggle session but and and did you you had to do that with the men that you'd slept with is that right.
[1:42:34] Um, hold on one second. I need to go inside real quick.
[1:42:42] Sure.
[1:42:43] Um, my baby needs to nurse. I'll just go up in my room.
[1:42:47] No, no, take your time. No problem.
[1:42:57] Hold on one second. okay i'm back no problem just going upstairs with my baby, i do miss that.
[1:43:24] Age but i'll have to wait.
[1:43:35] Okay, we can talk.
[1:43:38] Okay, so, and I suppose you had to break these spiritual bonds with all of the men that you had slept with in the past, is that right? You had to sort of name and all of that?
[1:43:46] Yeah.
[1:43:47] Boy, that seems like digging up a bunch of mucky stuff into a marriage.
[1:43:52] Yes.
[1:43:53] And was that because you were trying to deal with specific problems in the marriage?
[1:44:00] Yeah, I guess because he still was dealing with that mindset. Okay.
[1:44:08] I'm not sure what that means dealing with the mindset.
[1:44:12] That he deserved better basically.
[1:44:15] Okay so there were problems in the marriage because he felt he deserved better yeah.
[1:44:21] I guess yes.
[1:44:23] Okay and how did those problems manifest that you went to this ministry issue uh solution.
[1:44:31] Um i don't even remember probably still dealing with lust um i don't know i don't think he was.
[1:44:38] So what happened to in sort of i guess the next year or two you had your first uh no a little bit longer right so you were married for three years before you had your first is that right.
[1:44:48] Um no like two or well i guess i guess by the time she was born right right um yeah okay and how was sort of year two.
[1:45:00] And three were they uh better or okay or good.
[1:45:03] No it's been like the same how it is now it's just been getting worse he's we go in cycles it's like a broken record um like we're good for a little bit or we see we've done like intensive counseling weekends from what that ministry there's somebody else she had her own ministry I mean, counselors refer people to her. Basically, like, nine months of counseling, you know, like, an hour a week counseling passed out into one weekend. Anyway, that was intense. We've just done different things because, like, it'll be good for a while, and then he'll go back to porn and masturbation over and over again, not really dealing with it. But I do want to say a couple things that came up that was really heartbreaking was when, in that weekend, he confessed to me that when we would have sex, he would picture my mom.
[1:46:10] What now?
[1:46:13] Yeah.
[1:46:15] What do you mean?
[1:46:16] Okay i mean i.
[1:46:17] Know what you mean but he would picture your mom.
[1:46:20] Yeah which i don't understand and then when i was pregnant with my first you know uh sex is a little tricky when you're pregnant, um so when you're not face to face like it's it's i guess easier for your mind to wander i don't know but he would picture somebody at church who he was obviously lusting over, And so, whole pregnancy, I found out, you would just imagine I was somebody else.
[1:46:50] Okay.
[1:46:53] That's really hurtful.
[1:46:56] Right. Okay. The mom thing. Have you had any, I mean, I don't know, is your mom some smoking hot elderly fox? Do you have any idea what the mom thing is about?
[1:47:21] Actually, I don't know. There was one time when we were dating, I don't know if it's connected, in a sick and twisted mind. We were having sex with our clothes on, but like on the bathroom counter, I don't know. And she walked by and she had no idea and we're like, oh, crap. And she had no idea. and and his he's always like looking for the hunt and what is that called voyeurism he's always like oh walk by the window let the neighbors see and like just stuff like that i feel like and he would like research some of the things he's looked up with like nudist colonies and that kind of thing um i don't know if for some reason because that happened and my mom saw it created a weird bond well sorry your.
[1:48:21] Mom saw so the door was open.
[1:48:23] The door was open we did not know she was in the house oh.
[1:48:29] But were you in her house or she was in your house.
[1:48:31] We lived at her house so.
[1:48:34] Oh so you.
[1:48:34] Just didn't know she was home i was living at i was living at her house okay, okay i don't know if that created a weird thing in his mind well.
[1:48:49] It's quasi -incestuous, right? And if incest or quasi-incest is some sort of sexualized thing for him, then it seems to me quite likely that he would have had some bad experience as a child.
[1:49:02] I don't know. I've never heard that terminology before.
[1:49:06] Well, I mean, that's sexual activity within the family, though, of course, your mother's not related to him, but it's semi-incestuous.
[1:49:16] Right. Right.
[1:49:20] Yeah, I would definitely ask him about anything that might have happened to him as a kid. It could be, could be not, but I mean, certainly there are signs that are there.
[1:49:29] I do know, like, he tried pulling down his cousin's pants when they were both kids, which he asked for forgiveness for, to her.
[1:49:41] Okay well i mean let's uh let's put that aside but it probably would be a good idea to ask him more directly and you know without judgment or hostility but just like did anything happen when you were a kid because uh this is a very uh unusual uh sexual presentation if that makes sense or or sexual manifestation and maybe there was something askew with him as a kid or something really untoward that would have happened that might have changed his perception of what normal or healthy sexuality might be. And are the issues mostly around sexuality or what are the other things that are going on in the marriage?
[1:50:25] Um yeah mostly and.
[1:50:29] So the cycles do they involve sort of a decent sex life and then a bad sex life or is that are those the cycles that you're dealing with or is that the major cycle.
[1:50:38] Um well it's been kind of hard to have our own time since we had kids sure sure oh um that's different um but like we'll be fine talking and then he just won't talk to me and like um.
[1:50:56] He's just very vulgar makes crude jokes and stuff like you just suck it like you're just waving it in my face like you go away like the heck i'm trying to go to the bathroom like get out of my face um just making jokes so yeah super sarcastic and i can tell the worse it gets i'm like have you looked at porn lately um i've tried to learn to get out of that like i was for a while probably for a couple years i was like on his back because he wasn't seeking other male help like probably have somebody talk to somebody like he knows people he could talk to for accountability and whatever but he hasn't ever sought that out or taken steps to get better even though he knows the steps to take um my one friend was like he's done so many get your head out of your ass like christian things like what the heck like and my pastor recently even was like you choosing porn is like you know like open the door spiritually like in our house to our kids um it's like slamming your kid's head in the car door it's like super.
[1:52:12] Intense visual that my pastor gave um that's like he's like like is doing and he's like yeah and he doesn't care, um and.
[1:52:28] Even yesterday, I sent him a quote that a friend posted on Facebook about basically, sorry needs change. If you really care about somebody, you'd grow. I don't know the exact quote. But anyway, I sent it to him in the other room when I was home. And he yelled from the other room and said it twice, thinking I didn't hear him. and he said i don't care i just ignored him and yeah and.
[1:53:05] How is this affecting you said that you're frustrated yelling at your kids and how is this affecting what's going on with your kids.
[1:53:14] Well i just feel like i'm so triggered i know there's like i'm depleted in my body um i just get so triggered by not listening and messes and i know there's unrealistic expectations and, I feel like if we did have a better marriage I probably would be happier of a person not that somebody can make me happy I would just be less frustrated, I don't know so.
[1:53:49] Why do you think you're yelling at your kids?
[1:53:54] Well I've realized lately like I do feel like there's stuff from my childhood that like when they touch my things, that's clearly not their toys or something. I feel like they're just in my space and I just want to not be touched. I feel overwhelmed and overtouched. Um, I do remember my stepmom always like digging through my stuff and I felt violated in that way. Um, and I feel like maybe that's why I'm being triggered as I'm trying to dig out, dig deeper on like why I do or think the way that I do like mess up thoughts and, with that. Or just like when a kid is screaming, I can't help them because I'm in the shower or I'm going to the bathroom or I'm helping another kid. I just like, it's so overwhelmed. I'm like, like clean up quick like we need to go to bed or you know like if one needs to go to bed and like yell at the oldest to hurry up and i'm not doing it by myself which is overwhelming my husband works nights the nights he is here it is better for bedtime's sake, um I don't know. I just get so triggered and I just hate it so much. I don't want to be like this.
[1:55:23] And what is it that you hate the most?
[1:55:26] That I yell and I feel like I'm damaging them and my relationships with them.
[1:55:32] And what is the goal of your yelling? Is it to get them to change their behavior immediately?
[1:55:37] Yeah.
[1:55:39] Okay. And does it work?
[1:55:42] No. I don't know what else to do. I know you're not supposed to repeat yourself or... you know yelling isn't good like nobody i wouldn't want to listen to somebody, like i don't i don't know i don't know what to do how to get them to clean up or okay before.
[1:56:05] And under like what are you talking about.
[1:56:08] I know i don't understand why i have crazy unrealistic expectations well.
[1:56:14] Did you i mean the first place to look is did your parents have crazy unrealistic expectations for you or none at all like you just not know what is a reasonable expectation for your kids because your parents didn't parent you.
[1:56:25] Probably like i don't remember them like you know like my mom is always she's been spazzy but i don't remember my childhood much in that aspect okay.
[1:56:40] So have you read up what are developmentally appropriate milestones? Like when a kid's supposed to be cleaning up?
[1:56:51] No.
[1:56:53] Why not? I mean, it's, oh, should my kids be able to clean up? You could just look these things up, right? They may not be perfect, but that'd be something, right?
[1:57:03] Yeah.
[1:57:05] So why wouldn't you do the research? I mean, if you want to parent differently than the way you were parented, which I applaud you for, it's good, but that means that you're going to have to look things up, right?
[1:57:16] I've been doing parenting classes and stuff like that, and I worked at a preschool. So yes, I guess I have. My oldest has always seemed super mature. I'm talking really, really early and just super smart. So it feels like older than what they are. It's ridiculous, I know, but I don't know how to change.
[1:57:48] Well, I mean, you have to get the facts, right? I mean, so I think four is pretty early, especially when you've got two younger kids, but four is pretty early to have this expectation of cleaning up. And probably you feel tense when the house is messy, so you want your kids to clean up so you feel better. Is that fair? yes okay what's your house a mess when you were growing up.
[1:58:19] I don't remember. I don't.
[1:58:21] Well, you've got two addicts, right? I assume it was.
[1:58:25] Well, I don't remember.
[1:58:27] Okay. But do you have any pictures from when you were a kid? Or is there anything in the background? Or does your brother remember? Or anything like that?
[1:58:36] I don't know. But I know my mom, well, she's kind of messy. Or now, or there's stuff like hoarder type situation going on now. but she she liked things organized and cleaned up I guess I don't remember toys and stuff though.
[1:58:56] Okay and how was your mom when the place was messy.
[1:59:02] Um well I feel like she's spazzy and I see that like oh my gosh I'm acting like my mom.
[1:59:12] Well I mean that's the most likely thing right and I'm fortunate in that I didn't grow out with my dad, so I get a pretty open template. But how was your mom when the place was messy?
[1:59:27] I don't remember.
[1:59:29] Oh, there was a little pause there. I don't remember. A little bit?
[1:59:36] Well, I feel silly that I don't remember a whole lot. I do remember her spazzing if stuff got broke or something like that.
[1:59:46] And spazzing means like she would get angry if you dropped a plate or something.
[1:59:50] Yeah yeah freak out.
[1:59:52] Okay so you know that's terrible parenting right i've just i'm gonna be straight up with you kids are gonna break yes yes i mean that's natural i mean you can have nice expensive stuff or you can have kids but you can't have both.
[2:00:06] Yeah and my husband is always getting mad too when stuff breaks.
[2:00:14] It's always one?
[2:00:15] Oh, it doesn't last forever.
[2:00:18] Right. No, I mean, so it's expecting kids not to drop stuff is like expecting to be a perfect pianist the first time you sit down to play. They're learning, which means they're going to drop things, they're going to break things, they're going to fall off their bikes, they're going to spill things. It's natural. Like I was talking with a mom this morning who's like, oh, my kid wants to pour his milk in his cereal and it spills. I'm like, well, then put it in the sink. Of course kids are going to spill things. And it's going to be a mess. And we get triggered because our parents often were kind of jerks when we spilled things, right? They get mad. But that's ridiculous. it's like it's like getting a puppy and then being upset when he jumps it's like that's what puppies do doesn't mean that you shouldn't encourage your kids to be tidy over time but uh my daughter i mean she's she's pretty great to live with and and she's she's 15 and and there's still sometimes a trail because the brain our brains don't mature till early to mid-20s so expecting it at four or is a bit optimistic, to put it mildly.
[2:01:31] Yeah, it's ridiculous.
[2:01:34] But it's not ridiculous if your mom was tense about it, because then that's just what you associate motherhood with.
[2:01:40] I don't want to be like that.
[2:01:47] But then you'll have to work a little bit to try and remember stuff, because especially if you don't remember it, it's probably going to manifest in your reactions.
[2:01:55] Right.
[2:01:55] But if you remember it, right, then, um, so, so let me tell you generally how it works for women. Sorry, I don't mean to mansplain femininity to you. So I apologize in advance, but I'm going to do it anyway because I'm a foolish, foolishly brave. All right. So this is how it works for women, particularly women who feel out of control. When women feel out of control, either because of hormones or a chaotic husband or financial issues or whatever, right? Women who feel out of control will try to re-establish control by organizing the environment. And that way, because if they feel out of control internally, if women feel out of control internally and the place is a mess, it's overwhelming and it short-circuits the brain. So if you feel out of control often as a woman, and men do it in different ways, right? But as a woman, if you feel out of control, what you will probably try to do is to exercise extra control over your environment. If you feel chaotic on the inside, you are going to try and do your very best to make sure there's no mess in your environment, because otherwise you just feel like you're in an asylum, like you're crazy inside and your environment is crazy and it's just, right? Does this make sense?
[2:03:14] 100%.
[2:03:15] Right. So then you're asking your children to manage your psychological health by tidying up after themselves. That's unfair. It's not their fault that you feel chaotic on the inside, right?
[2:03:28] Right.
[2:03:29] It's not their fault that your marriage is going through challenges, right? They didn't choose your husband. They didn't choose you. They didn't choose the marriage, right? They're just born into it.
[2:03:38] Right.
[2:03:41] That's like blaming people who wash up on shore because there's a volcano erupting. It's not their fault, right? So you're asking your children to manage your internal anxiety or chaos or frustration or alienation or difficulties in your marriage. you're asking them to make the environment tidier so you feel better.
[2:04:02] Yeah.
[2:04:03] And that's unfair, right? It's not their fault.
[2:04:07] Correct.
[2:04:08] And then what happens is you make them responsible for managing your upset, right? So then when they make you more upset, you feel like they're aggressing against you, like they're doing something to you, and therefore you yell at them because you're just self-defense at this point, right? They're supposed to make you feel better. If they're not making you feel better, it's their fault. But your emotions, I mean, you know this, right? I'm just reminding you, right? Because we all need this reminder as parents. Your emotions are not your children's responsibility. It's not their job to manage your emotions. It's your job. Now, it also hasn't escaped my attention, and you can tell me how relevant this is, right? Did you ever try to help your parents or fix your parents with their addiction? Did you ever try to talk to your dad about his drinking or your mom about her drug use or anything like that? Have you ever tried, I mean, if your mom is still, as you say, addicted to opiates, have you ever tried talking to her about rehab or anything like that?
[2:05:31] No, not rehab.
[2:05:33] But maybe reducing her intake or finding some other way to manage her pain or anything like that. I don't know if that's medically appropriate. I'm just curious if you have talked to her about that.
[2:05:43] I've talked to her a lot about smoking.
[2:05:46] Okay, so she's a smoker. Okay. All right. So you've tried to help her with at least one of her addictions. And what about your dad and his drinking? Have you ever tried talking to him about that?
[2:05:56] Yeah.
[2:05:57] Okay. And he won't admit that there's a fault, right?
[2:06:00] Right. Okay.
[2:06:01] So you understand. And of course, with your very first boyfriend, you were trying to manage his dysfunction in terms of suicidality and bulimia and the mania and so on, right? Bipolar, you said, I think, right?
[2:06:14] Mm-hmm.
[2:06:14] Right. So you try to fix people's... Addictions.
[2:06:20] Yeah.
[2:06:21] Does it work?
[2:06:23] No.
[2:06:24] No. See, a lot of times when people are around addicts, they focus on, oh my gosh, my husband, my mother, my father, my brother has this addiction, right? But the real, the more subtle addiction is your addiction to trying to fix addicts. So if somebody's an alcoholic, a lot of times the person who enables it is kind of addicted to the chaos and the helplessness, right? Because as a kid, you were kind of helpless. And so if you try to fix people's addictions, you're helpless. So this feeling of helplessness, of wanting to fix things but feeling helpless, seems to me kind of a theme.
[2:07:11] Yeah.
[2:07:12] And then you want to fix your kids, make them be tidy up, and you're helpless about that. And you want to fix your husband's porn addiction, but you're helpless about that. And you want him to not be coarse, but you're helpless about that. And you want to fix your dad's drinking, but you're helpless about that. And you want to fix your mom's smoking, but you're helpless about that. So I think that's the pattern that's right at the core. And you're actually not even trying to fix other people. You're trying to make yourself feel better.
[2:07:43] Yeah.
[2:07:43] Because you cannot fix addicts. Now, that doesn't mean that addicts can't change or anything like that, but you can't fix them. Because it doesn't work, right? And the other thing, if you're addicted to fixing addicts, then them not fixing themselves is actually part of your addiction. They won't fix themselves because they know that deep down, if they fix themselves, you'll go find another addict to deal with. And to try and fix. They keep your attention by not fixing their addiction. Does that make sense? So while at the top level, you want them to fix their addiction, probably deep down, I don't know for sure, it's just a hypothesis, right? But probably deep down, you don't want them to fix their addiction because then you wouldn't have anything to do or even know how to interact with them. I don't know if this fits or makes any sense to you or, or I don't mean by makes sense to you. I don't mean that, that you understand it. And I mean, does it, do you agree with any of that possible approach?
[2:08:55] Um, I don't know about like if they get fixed, like if he gets fixed, I wouldn't know how to interact with him.
[2:09:04] Okay. When was the last time you had a long relationship with a guy who didn't need any fixing?
[2:09:21] I dated someone in my early 20s that was fine.
[2:09:24] Okay and how long did that relationship last is this the guy where you decided that just wasn't going to work out.
[2:09:32] No it's somebody I haven't mentioned yet.
[2:09:35] Okay so there was a guy in your early 20s who was functional and didn't need any fixing right.
[2:09:42] We all can grow, but yeah.
[2:09:44] I'm sorry?
[2:09:44] It wasn't, he wasn't, we all need to, we have stuff to deal with.
[2:09:50] No, he didn't need any fixing. Look, honestly, my wife doesn't, I don't need to fix anything about her.
[2:09:59] Yeah, no, it was, he was fine.
[2:10:05] Okay, so he was fine. And how long did that relationship last?
[2:10:10] Not quite a year. Okay.
[2:10:12] And why did that end?
[2:10:15] I was shocked he just broke up with me. It wasn't working.
[2:10:21] Okay. Why did he break up with you?
[2:10:26] Probably didn't see us going in the same path.
[2:10:30] Oh, come on. Don't give me this nonsense. Why? Come on. That's generic back of the card stuff. Why did he break up with you?
[2:10:52] Well, now, probably, because we did some sexual things together. We didn't have sex, but he wanted to wait for all that for marriage.
[2:11:07] Okay, but you married your husband in five months. Why didn't you marry this guy?
[2:11:15] Um wasn't in a rush i guess um probably i was uh he was looking for somebody, who was willing to wait.
[2:11:29] Well did he know about the men you'd slept well the men and boys you'd slept with in in in your jeans?
[2:11:36] Yeah.
[2:11:38] And did he want to get married sooner? I mean, if you're not going to have sex, you've got to get married quick, right? We're not designed to just be celibate for like a year while being around someone we want to have sex with. That's not healthy, right?
[2:11:54] Yeah.
[2:11:57] Did he have a sexual history himself?
[2:12:01] Not that I know of.
[2:12:02] Okay, so did he viewed no sex before marriage as a virtue, right? Is that right?
[2:12:16] Right.
[2:12:17] Okay, so why would he date you? I mean, no disrespect, right? But you'd had a lot of sex without being married, right?
[2:12:26] Has people changed?
[2:12:31] So then he was trying to fix you?
[2:12:34] No It was like Probably like four years Since I dated somebody.
[2:12:43] Okay so then If he's asking you to be celibate before marriage Why didn't he propose? I'm just trying to understand Why the breakup happened.
[2:12:52] We didn't know each other.
[2:12:53] I'm sorry?
[2:12:55] Like, I think, I don't know, maybe the goal was to date a year and then get married.
[2:13:02] Well, what was his plan? What did he say?
[2:13:06] I think he just decided I wasn't the one.
[2:13:09] Okay, so are you saying that he dated you for a year with no plan for when you were going to get engaged and married?
[2:13:18] I guess so.
[2:13:19] Well, sorry. What do you mean you guessed so? You were there. I wasn't.
[2:13:23] Well, I think we were still getting to know each other.
[2:13:26] Oh, come on. It's a year. I mean, our ancestors got married after two months. You got married after five months when you were 29. You date for a year. No sexual activity. No plan. No engagement. No future. No nothing.
[2:13:43] Well, but we did do sexual stuff. Not intercourse, but we did.
[2:13:48] Okay, so you did sexual stuff. Well, welcome to the reality, right? Just a lot of married couples do, and then they get married. Like, I did this in my Wild West presentation. Like, a third of marriages in America, back in the 19th century, they can tell that they had intercourse, because they can tell when they got married or then when the first baby was. Like, a third of, they actually had procreative intercourse, and then they just got married. That's the foundation for at least a third of marriages, and that's not even counting non-procreative ways of having sex, right? So, yes, okay, I hate to say big deal, but basically big deal, so you fooled around a little bit, then you just get married.
[2:14:29] I guess he just decided I wasn't the one. I don't know.
[2:14:33] Okay, so that's not an answer, though, right?
[2:14:37] Yeah.
[2:14:38] So you couldn't sustain a relationship with a guy who didn't have any drama going on. apparently okay don't don't get passive aggressive with me that's annoying, sorry okay don't get all apparently and it's like no no you're telling me the story don't don't like i'm i'm trying to understand the story so once in your life you had a relationship with a guy who didn't need fixing is that right yeah except and i guess he also wasn't assertive and and helping like figuring out when you're getting married or what the plan was or anything right, yeah and how long before you broke up did you start engaging in sexual activity.
[2:15:27] I'm not sure.
[2:15:29] I mean, a week, a month, six months, just roughly.
[2:15:33] Oh, probably months, yeah.
[2:15:36] Months? Okay, so you're engaging in sexual activity for months, and then he breaks up with you, and did he say why? Did he say why he broke up with you?
[2:15:50] Not that I recall.
[2:15:52] He just said it's over and I'm not telling you why.
[2:15:56] Well, like it's not working out. I don't know.
[2:15:59] Oh, he said it's not working out?
[2:16:04] Yeah. Didn't see us. Our lives are all on the same path. Okay.
[2:16:14] Before he broke up with you, did he tell you that he had any issues with the relationship? or did he just break up with you out of nowhere and no...
[2:16:24] It was out of nowhere. It was super shocking.
[2:16:28] Okay, so he's messed up, right? Because it's not really fair to date a woman and start engaging in sexual activity, then break up with her out of the blue with no warning and no recourse. Like there wasn't anything you could do or change or fix, right? So that's cruel.
[2:16:45] Yeah, it was hard.
[2:16:46] Did you think that there was anything wrong with the relationship or did you think everything was fine?
[2:16:53] Well, we believed we should have waited to tell me.
[2:16:55] Did you think there was anything wrong with the relationship, or did you think everything was fine?
[2:17:01] Yes, I thought stuff was wrong with the relationship.
[2:17:04] And what did you, outside of the sexual matters, what did you think was wrong with the relationship?
[2:17:08] Nothing outside of the sexual matters.
[2:17:11] Okay, so outside of the sexual matters, which obviously he'd agreed with and went along with for months, you thought things were fine.
[2:17:16] so he was hiding from you that things were not fine and he gave you no chance to change uh and he just dumped you without any explanation and without any warning and without any recourse right so that's that's really cruel right right okay so he's not he is a guy who kind of needed fixing in that he didn't know how to communicate to a another living soul in any reasonable way, is that fair to say no, so he needed fixing because he was a terrible communicator and just dumped you, after sexual activity with no warning and no recourse so you've never dated a guy who doesn't need fixing, yeah so that's a pattern right, so yeah I mean I know this is going to be tough but in my view you've got to stop trying to fix your husband, stop shaming him stop putting him down stop trying to change him and just say, i'm gonna find a way to love him or accept him as he is because shame might be part of his kink, like it might be masochism right i mean to name and shame i guess every every what uh one he's ever looked up on the internet i mean that's kind of masochistic right.
[2:18:40] And stop, you know, stop trying to fix your kids, stop trying to fix your parents, stop trying to fix your husband, and stop trying to manage your own emotions by controlling other people.
[2:18:54] I do not control.
[2:18:56] So here's, I mean, I've been married for 22 years. And so I'm obviously no, I'm not any kind of final boss of expertise or anything like this, but I will tell you this for absolute certain. once you get married to a man and once you have his children you lose the complete right and ability to criticize him in any foundational way, Like if I have five months to choose a car and I choose this particular car, I choose, I don't know, a Volvo with a sunroof that's red and has four doors, right? Do I get to bring it home after I've been able to test drive it for five months straight, I finally bring it home and then I'm just unhappy with everything to do with my Volvo or my car? Does that make any sense at all?
[2:19:46] Uh-huh.
[2:19:47] Once you say, I love you, once you say, I'm married to you, and certainly once you have children, you lose the right of criticism. You do. You lose the right of criticism. You chose the man, you chose to date him, you chose to get engaged, you chose to get married, and you chose to live with him for years, and you chose to have three children with him. You cannot criticize him. You have to give up that right. Because you can't say to someone, these are the vows, holding no others before you, for better or for worse, in sickness and in health, in rich or for rich or poor, till death do us part. That's the vow you made to God himself, right? You have to give up the right of criticism. You have to give up the right of nagging. It destroys marriages, and contempt is the biggest predictor of divorce. You have to give up the right of correcting someone, because once you say, I love you, we are one flesh, We have made children. You cannot criticize him.
[2:20:56] And he has to give up that right for you as well. Because to become one flesh, you know, like if I look at my arms and I say, oh, man, I've got noodle arms. They're really weak. It's terrible. How can I blame my arms? It's my choice. I chose not to lift weights. You are one flesh.
[2:21:20] Attacking him is like your boyfriend cutting into his own shoulder. in that very vivid description you gave about an hour and a half ago, right? You are harming yourself when you attack your husband, when you put him down. You say, oh, but he's doing things that I don't like, right? Yeah. Yes, yes, he is. But you chose him. He is a reflection of your choice. Everything that you say you have contempt around with him is actually contempt at yourself. Every time you criticize him, you're criticizing yourself. Every time you attack him, you're attacking yourself because he's only there because of your choice. Remember I told you this thing about I wasn't going to let you do the victim thing? Why is your husband in your life? Because you chose him. So if you attack him, you are attacking your own choices. You are putting yourself down. Is he perfect? No. Are you perfect? No. Am I perfect? No. my wife is perfect but that's a different matter right but you can't attack him without it's like you're saying the person in the mirror is just ugly and stupid it's like you're just attacking yourself he is a reflection of your choices and your commitments.
[2:22:38] You chose him you've made a vow before God to love him if you attack him and put him down and treat him with contempt and this and that and he's treating you with contempt but I'm talking to you not him right.
[2:22:52] You know, this gross shut up and suck it stuff, it's contempt and it's gross. And absolutely. But I'm talking to you, not him. If I was talking to him and if he wants to call in, I'd be happy to chat with him too. But you cannot treat your spouse with contempt. You cannot fundamentally criticize your spouse. You are attacking your own choices. If I have six months and an infinite amount of money in which to buy a house, and I finally buy a house, and then I spend the next seven and a half years bitching about how terrible the house is, I'm just attacking my own choices. Nobody forced me to buy a house. Nobody forced me to buy that house. Nobody forced you to get married, and nobody forced you to marry this man. This is your choice. And the children are a reflection of your choice. So every time you attack your husband, you're also attacking your children. Because you chose to marry him, and you chose to have children with him.
[2:23:46] And every time you attack your husband you are attacking half of your children because he's half of your children right your children are half him, giving up the right of criticism in marriage is really real now does this mean that you're never going to have any feedback no if your husband is about to drive through red lights right, you say whoa there's red lights stop right there's a stop i'm not saying don't ever have any feedback of course have feedback right if your husband is gaining weight you say oh you know maybe you're getting a little heavy and let's check your weight and let's check your diet and i'm not saying don't have any opinions don't have any thoughts don't have any feedback i'm not saying be a blank slate but any kind of foundation or moral criticism you gave that up at the altar, because you made a vow to love to honor i don't know if you threw obey in there but to love and honor so every time you are criticizing your husband you're breaking your vows you say oh yes but he's doing things that are unacceptable to me but you lost that right you gave up that right when you married him you dated got engaged married and had kids with him and he's given up that right with regards to you too so you guys both bitching at each other is a sin it is a sin against the vows you made to Almighty God.
[2:25:09] And you guys both have had too much indifference and criticism from others over the course of your lives. Is that a fair thing to say?
[2:25:19] No.
[2:25:20] Is adding to it solving anything?
[2:25:23] No.
[2:25:27] Your husband, in my view, was crushingly neglected as a child because he had this secret from the age of 13 onwards, or maybe he's had other secrets if you talk to him about other things that may have happened negatively to him as a child. His parents did not inquire about it. They did not ask him about it. So he's had a secret from when he was a child. And that is a very tough burden to carry. It's not his fault that his parents did not protect him from the ravages of pornography when he was 13. And criticizing and bitching at him and humiliating him and shaming him and making him name every search he's ever done is not solving the problem, is it?
[2:26:24] No.
[2:26:25] Have either of you ever been fully accepted for who you are? What's and all? Sins and all? Flaws and all? Doesn't Jesus embrace the sinner?
[2:26:35] Only one.
[2:26:37] Well, but we try to do what Jesus does, right?
[2:26:41] Mm-hmm.
[2:26:48] If you embrace him, it will ease your heart. Because behind this bravado, behind this addiction, is sorrow and isolation. He was lonely as a child. You said his siblings were much older. He was lonely as a child, and when you're lonely and isolated and neglected and abandoned to some degree, to a large degree, it sounds like, as a child, you turn to whatever dopamine you can get. You turn to whatever will make you happy, and in this case, it happened to be this material and masturbation, right? But he did that because he was miserable. And the more you make him unhappy, the more he's going to be tempted by this kind of behavior, because how does he manage being unhappy? He goes for whatever dopamine he can get, and in this case, it's this material in masturbation, right? So the more you shame and humiliate him, the more you're recreating the very circumstances that drove him to the sin in the first place.
[2:27:49] And it's not easy, right? This is what I think. To me, this is what love your enemy means. You're viewing this addiction as an enemy, and I get that. And I'm not saying it's good or right or anything like that. But shaming and attacking and rejecting him, that doesn't work. And I think the Bible and Jesus are fairly clear on that part. And you're not perfect, I'm not perfect, that he who is without sin cast the first stone. So he had a pornography addiction, and you were promiscuous. You tell me in the annals of good and bad, which one is just objectively a thousand times worse. I can't tell.
[2:28:33] No. No.
[2:28:36] Let he who is without sin, let she who is without sin, cast the first stone.
[2:28:40] Oh, for sure.
[2:28:43] Now, I understand. I fully understand that this behavior is still continuing, whereas your promiscuity has not. So I'm not blind to that, and I fully accept and understand that. But I think asking him more about his childhood and inquiring more about his isolation, more about his loneliness, is probably the best way to approach it, rather than this continual blame and shame stuff.
[2:29:08] Yeah.
[2:29:10] Sorry for the long speech. Hopefully it wasn't too much of a lecture, but that's my sort of thoughts about the matter, if that helps.
[2:29:17] I just no i appreciate it i just feel like you asked, have you ever been fully loved for who we are like i feel like my husband doesn't i just feel used for taking care of the kids and the house and the bills and all and sucks like i just okay.
[2:29:41] But does your husband feel used for having to pay all the bills? Does he just feel used for his wallet and his work and his night job? Does he love going to work, or would he rather stay home and play with the kids?
[2:30:01] He'd probably stay home and play with the kids.
[2:30:03] You think? So, again, this is the self-pity thing, right? Rather than say, well, I just feel used for taking care of the kids. Well, first of all, that's an insult to your kids. I assume that you enjoy taking care of the kids, right? And secondly, if you think that men never feel like walking wallets, you think again.
[2:30:24] Yeah.
[2:30:25] Right? I mean, you quote, use him for money, right? I'm not saying you'd use him, use him, but you know, he's got to go to work. He doesn't want to do that.
[2:30:33] Right.
[2:30:35] So that's what I mean about like reach across the aisle and ask him about his isolation, ask him about what happened to him as a kid and, and understand that, yes, look, occasionally you will feel used. Of course what? And, and guess what? Occasionally your husband doesn't want to go to work, but he goes for the good of the family and he feels not good about that. We all, I mean, you know this we all have to make sacrifices to to have and raise families right some of your sacrifices are clear his sacrifices might not be as clear but they exist don't they i mean you're not living in a box under under a bridge right i mean he goes to work he how much of his own income does he how much of the income he makes does he get to spend on things that he wants.
[2:31:19] You don't really you can't really do anything extra.
[2:31:22] Right so so he takes his money and he turns it over for the good of the family, That's not always fun for a man.
[2:31:33] No.
[2:31:36] But that's the kind of thing where instead of saying, well, I feel used and feeling sorry for yourself, rather than saying, well, gee, I wonder if my, I mean, I wonder if my husband ever feels this, this, right? As opposed to just focusing on yourself, really try and reach across the aisle and figure out what's going on for him. Because that's going to bring you guys closer together. All of this, like throwing rocks over the fence and hitting each other just drives you further apart. And the end result of that is probably divorce, which you need to do everything, in my view, because especially because you've got kids, you need to do everything you can to avoid.
[2:32:09] I don't want to.
[2:32:12] Okay, then you have to stop blaming and attacking, and you have to start sympathizing with and understanding. And maybe that will work. I don't know, right? Because there's free will. But you have to do something different than what you've been doing. And if what you're doing hasn't been working, probably doing the opposite is a good plan.
[2:32:28] Well you're right like how do I respond like the reason why I feel used is because he's like oh tell the housekeeper to clean the dishes like he calls me the housekeeper, and his baby mama and stuff like that I'm like I'm a lot more than that like I'm your wife, and like so that's how he talks to me and that's why I feel used I.
[2:32:51] Get that that is a hard hard problem to solve and And what does Jesus say you return negative experiences with? Awesome. Ask him about his childhood, asking about what happened with him as a teenager, ask him about, did you have anything negative sexual as a kid? Not as a leverage over him, but just genuinely curious, right? And I've got a whole book on this called Real-Time Relationships, which you can get for free at my website at freedomain.com slash books. So I would really recommend that book. You can get it in audio book and all of that. You can listen to it as you see fit, but, okay, where did, if he's got such a great family, where did he learn to talk to women like that?
[2:33:41] Where's he getting this from? Is it like, I don't know, is he some Andrew Tate guy? Like, I don't know, where's he getting all of this from? Try to understand his thinking. If he's got contempt for you, do you have contempt for him? Well, you can't control his contempt for you, but you can control your contempt for him. and someone's got to start moving this thing in the right direction, does he treat you badly it sounds like absolutely absolutely and i'm really sorry for that and i wish he wasn't doing that i really do but you can only control your own behavior and trying to get to understand what's behind this aggressive facade trying to figure out what's going on deep down in his heart is the has to be the way forward because otherwise you just keep you guys could keep throwing insults at each other and then eventually you just get divorced, and maybe if you take a step towards him with gentleness and curiosity he'll start taking steps towards you maybe it won't work i don't know but it's your best shot isn't it.
[2:34:51] He apparently isn't talking to me because yesterday i sent him the thing and then he's like i'm sorry i'm not perfect.
[2:35:00] Sorry the thing will remind me what the thing is.
[2:35:03] Like a quote or whatever the quote um, let's see what um it was emotionally safe people will care if they hurt you they won't just apologize they'll work to repair the relationship and actually change their behavior.
[2:35:22] Yes but you don't believe that at all this is what he's driving him crazy i guarantee you that you don't believe that at all because your parents haven't apologized and they're still welcome in your life, huh right yeah he's not maybe get off the high horse of all of these values that you have which he can plainly see you don't live by do you think he can't see the relationship with your parents oh.
[2:35:51] He sees he probably knows more than i even realize.
[2:35:54] Okay so so give me that quote again um.
[2:35:58] Um emotionally safe people will care if they hurt you.
[2:36:07] Okay have your parents ever shown any care that they've hurt you no okay so you they're still welcome in your life, so instead of crabbing at your husband maybe go talk honestly with your parents, because if you can't fix the stuff with your parents how are you supposed to fix the stuff with your husband yeah the stuff with your husband it's an effect of what you accept with your parents and he can see that so you sending him this message which is a high and mighty way of saying well i i just think it's unacceptable when people don't take responsibility for hurting you it's like you've never even really talked honestly with your parents about their neglect or or what they've done to hurt you so you don't have credibility and you shouldn't, because if you want to fix things your parents relationship predated this guy by almost 30 years why is he getting all the flack for the bad things your parents did and why are you having these standards with him that you won't even have with your parents.
[2:37:14] That's what I mean by not being a victim right, alright Right. Does that make sense? And I say this with great affection and care for your family as a whole. I'm certainly not trying to blame you. We all have inconsistencies, right? And so I'm just sort of trying to point them out emphatically so that you can deal with the root problem, which I would assume is what's going on with your parents, rather than, I think, the shadow that's cast by what's going on with your husband.
[2:37:45] Yeah. Yeah.
[2:37:54] All right. Well, we've been talking for a good old time. Is there anything that you wanted to mention as we, um, as we wind up?
[2:38:02] Um, oh, I thought, I know, um, there's so much.
[2:38:10] Don't get too tense. You're breastfeeding. That's right. Just, just get it going.
[2:38:18] Um i thought you were going to tell me that i should probably separate from my husband like other people have been telling me um.
[2:38:26] I'm here for the kids i mean obviously for you and your husband but your kids you've got three kids and yeah um you you were in love enough with your husband to make a kid six months and nine months ago right so less than a year and a half ago so, what's best for the kids is that you and your husband work it out otherwise they're children of a single mom and you know you know what kind of men are going to want to date single moms not particularly great men to have around your kids so i'm here primarily focusing on what's best for the children because they're all they're not here by choice you and your husband are here by choice, yeah so i i personally i mean i'm just flying by here but i don't think that, uh i don't think that uh it's best for your kids if you separate now of course if if you you hate your husband and he hates you and it's just contempt and venom but you know you have choices about that yes you have choices about how you interact with your husband and if he wants to call in he's certainly welcome uh to do so and i can talk with him maybe as sternly as i'm talking to you which again i do with great affection but um it's not it's not not good for your kids and and how how old were you when your parents split up.
[2:39:49] Um like four.
[2:39:51] Right so that's about your eldest child's age right so there might be a primitive memory going on here as well that this is difficult because of what your parents did, and obviously you would much rather your parents had worked things out and been mature rather than split up and put you through all this mess right so that's how we break the cycle is not making the same mistakes our parents made.
[2:40:12] Yeah it's just so hard when he's constantly not choosing me, um and yesterday he said like he texted me he said i'm sorry i'm not perfect and i don't i don't expect you to be and he's like maybe someday you'll find him and i said what does that mean.
[2:40:38] Oh he means the perfect guy who you won't ever criticize like.
[2:40:43] Is he saying he's gonna leave me.
[2:40:45] No he's saying he's saying that you have a standard of perfection i'm not saying he's right but i can tell you as a man what he's saying is um you have a standard of perfection that i can't possibly meet now the only reason you'd have that standard of perfection is because you think you can meet it you think you think that you will get a perfect guy so he's he's being bitter and sardonic saying, well, I hope you meet this perfect guy. Like, so let's say that I was your husband, right? And I said, well, I deserve a woman who's got the figure of a Victoria's Secrets model and the brain of Albert Einstein, and she's perfectly moral and perfectly virtuous and never ages, right?
[2:41:26] Yeah.
[2:41:27] You'd be like, hey, good luck meeting her, right? I hope you meet her.
[2:41:30] Yeah.
[2:41:31] Right? That's just a sarcastic way of saying I have irrational standards. Does that make sense?
[2:41:38] Yeah. You don't think he's literally saying like...
[2:41:40] No, he's not literally saying that. He's saying, your standards are killing me.
[2:41:45] Yeah. Yeah.
[2:41:54] And what faults what faults do you have that he can call you on right so you've got the addiction stuff and all of that but what faults i mean you have faults right i mean you're yelling at the kids right you have faults you have some unrealistic standards perhaps and you haven't inquired as to the wounds that produced his addiction uh and all of that um i mean you might want there's a great book by dr gabber mate m-a-t-e called in the realm of hungry ghosts that talks about how addictions form and why. And addictions are ways of trying to self-medicate childhood trauma. And by blaming the addiction, you're just adding more trauma, more upset, and that's why it doesn't solve it. All right. Well, I'm going to have to go and get something to eat. I can't do much philosophy on this empty stomach. So will you listen? I obviously hugely care. I hope you keep me posted about how things are going. And of course, I do offer, if there's anything I can talk about with your husband, I sympathize with where he's coming from. While at the same time, he does obviously, but behavior needs to improve. So I'd be happy to chat with him if he wants to set something up. And I hope that you'll keep me posted about how things are going.
[2:43:09] Thank you so much.
[2:43:10] I really wish the very best for you and your family. And look, you guys are really working hard to improve things from how you were raised. and you're doing a good job in many ways. Your kids are doing way better than you guys were doing at that age. So there's a huge amount to be admired here. And I hope that you guys can work it out.
[2:43:25] I appreciate it.
[2:43:26] All right. Lots of love. Take care. Thank you.
[2:43:29] Bye.
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