0:07 - The Journey Begins
7:15 - Complications Arise
10:25 - A Year of Challenges
17:26 - The Truth Unfolds
25:39 - A Descent into Chaos
37:25 - The Breaking Point
46:19 - A Mother's Struggle
55:46 - Seeking Solutions
1:10:56 - Childhood Reflections
1:12:45 - Sibling Relationships
1:16:23 - Parental Influence
1:22:14 - Early Romantic Encounters
1:30:57 - Ex-Wife's Background
1:36:58 - Family Dynamics
1:40:49 - Childhood Trauma
1:51:55 - Patterns of Self-Delusion
1:59:43 - The Complexity of Conservatism
2:11:56 - Navigating Future Relationships
In this episode, we delve into a complex and deeply personal narrative that reveals the intricacies of relationships, mental health, and the consequences of decision-making. The caller shares his journey, reflecting on his life from his tumultuous marriage to the challenging dynamics that unfolded throughout the years. He describes marrying a woman with a complicated history, including being a single mother to a daughter, and subsequent challenges as they expanded their family.
As the conversation progresses, the caller candidly discusses the emergence of red flags in his wife's emotional stability, particularly after the birth of their youngest child. The strain of parenting, mental health issues, and the complications associated with previous surgeries culminate in an environment where both personal and relational turmoil become palpable. He recounts my father's observations regarding his wife's emotional state and the subsequent strain on their marriage, leading to a sense of being overwhelmed by the demands of family life.
The escalating tension becomes evident as he reflects on his wife's mental health decline, specifically related to hormonal changes post-surgery and her struggles with substance use, ultimately leading to chaotic behavior. The caller describes distressing incidents, including his wife’s psychological episodes that culminate in alarming actions, characterized by paranoia and irrational behavior. He recounts the ramifications of these episodes, including police involvement and his efforts to safeguard their children from the instability surrounding them.
Throughout the discussion, key themes of accountability, self-awareness, and the importance of skepticism emerge. The caller recognizes the critical role that an introspective analysis of his relationship choices plays in understanding the dynamics that led to his current situation. The narrative reveals not only the challenges of managing a family amidst chaos but also the internal struggle of reconciling past experiences with present realities.
Towards the end of our conversation, we explore broader questions about morality, responsibility, and the societal expectations surrounding parenting and relationships. There’s an acknowledgment of the human tendency to look for validation in relationships and the importance of holding oneself—and others—accountable to factual realities rather than accepting self-reported narratives. Ultimately, the caller illustrates the necessity of navigating life with courage and clarity to ensure the wellbeing of himself and his children, ensuring that they are shielded from repeating the patterns and mistakes of the past.
[0:00] Okay, cool. Well, I'm going to just kind of lay this out. First and foremost, man, I'm a huge fan. I've been probably listening to this stuff for like 10 or so years.
[0:07] I don't spank my kids because of you. So there's another three boys coming into the world that are not going to be spanked ever. So I know you love to hear that. But yeah, man, I'm basically dealt with the most bizarre situation possible from so many dimensions. So as I kind of walk through this, I think you're probably going to go wait stop there hold on and there's like going to be a million of these little pillars where you could probably double down and it's its own four-hour show um so i'll kind of leave that up to you in terms of what like peaks what you you know red flags or stuff that kind of peaks your interest or whatever we can go into whatever but uh bottom line is i uh at around 33 i got married to a woman that i had been with for several years and everything seemed cool um she was actually a single mother um but i was definitely like you know totally knew what i was getting into with taking her daughter into my life who's great um and we had a son in 2015 and then another son in 2017 and after about a year after the second boy was born there was some uh i noticed some you know some a little bit of red flags um in terms of you know.
[1:28] Just anger issues and, uh, emotional stuff. And, you know, but I, I don't, I never knew what was normal and what was extreme. It definitely, my, my father had taken me aside and gone, Hey man, don't have any more kids by the way. Cause you know, this is, I can tell your, your wife is quote unquote overwhelmed. Um, and eventually after my, uh, youngest was, i guess three or four my wife started talking about having more kids and i said yeah i didn't say my dad sat me down but i said uh you know maybe we shouldn't and then we're in 2020 era now and she's saying you know summer of 2020 she's saying oh so and i mean you're just gonna read right into this but she says oh you know i'm i'm it's because i'm a bad wife aren't i you know that sort of thing um and of course what was it.
[2:23] That prompted that comment yeah.
[2:25] Um, because I was saying I did not want to have another child.
[2:29] Got it. Got it. Right. So your dad is saying because she's overwhelmed and she's like, no, it's because you think I'm a bad wife.
[2:36] Exactly. That, that was, that was what she said. And my dad had dealt with a very, very difficult mother and could just spot this stuff a mile away. Um, but he also didn't want to, he said, son, you know, this is what I'm seeing, but I'm not going to complicate your life by like getting in your way. I'm just telling you like heads up. um but the bottom line was sorry he didn't.
[2:57] Uh see any red flags with her before she got married is that right.
[2:59] He he kind he not really um not nothing was ever mentioned to me other other family members have said that they you know thought things but it wasn't nothing was very, egregious um again it was just like kind of you know typical like making holidays complicated stuff like that um but nothing too overboard but then she got into some disagreements with my mother and things like that too and my parents are divorced but my dad still kind of rushed to defend my mother in this situation which i thought was interesting um but at the end of the day i kind of said okay um you can uh i guess you know if we have another kid you know just so you know i'm 40 or you know 39 at the time and i said listen i'm ready to like not white butts anymore i need to i need to work more i need to handle business like life is calling me to go out in the world and conquer and i felt i was very much being pulled into mom number two role um and so sorry mom number two role.
[4:05] What do you mean.
[4:06] I mean that I would be at work at 4 o'clock and be called to come home because the kids were overwhelming her. Come home, help, help was always the text I would get, help. And that was stuff my dad was noticing too. And so he's like, dude, this isn't normal. Again, your kids now, the two boys are getting older, so don't have another one because you're just getting out of the red zone here. And I was like, oh, great. I can go mountain biking with them now. They're four and five. It's time to party. I'm not dealing with diapers and this and that. But I knew if another one was coming, I was going to get sucked back into doing a lot of this stuff. And again, that's a big... I realized the accountability on my part for not putting those boundaries up even well before that. So there were a lot of concessions. And obviously, looking back, I could go, oh man, this is all textbook. I go out now to the store and I see every dude doing this, grabbing stuff, dealing with the wives right in front of me. And I'm like, ha, I know exactly what that's like.
[5:12] Sorry, like grabbing stuff?
[5:15] Well, like, oh, get that off the shelf and come on, hurry up. Just being berated by their significant others. And I just look back and remember thinking that doing what she would tell me to do was going to make my job easier, but it just actually put me in a worse position slowly over time.
[5:32] Oh, like if you obey me, your life will get easier. But when you obey, it just gets worse.
[5:37] A hundred percent yeah um and it's easy to say that and recognize that looking back it was just a slow gentle creep over a decade um but so basically you know she convinces me that if we have another child that she is going to double down and do all the work and this and that and then i'm ready to you know okay sorry i shouldn't have said my name whatever um you know go go do the work you know go go uh go handle business whatever um and i'm like cool deal you know and by the way we do get along well at this time you know life is pretty good um all things considered um and then a couple months into the pregnancy she goes and gets an anomaly scan and it turns out there's a triple hit the baby's got a cleft lip cleft palate and then they discover this.
[6:32] Situation with, um, my now ex with my wife at the time has placenta procreta, which is where your uterus starts to grow into, or your placenta grows into your uterus. Okay. And so that was not good. Um, she had had three C-sections and nobody talks about this, but apparently by, you know, C-sections are not free lunch. You pay for it. If you're, if you're going to have four kids, by the time you're on your fourth, if you've got three C-sections, there are these types of complications. And so, all of a sudden, we're looking at a very complicated, high-risk pregnancy in addition to a poor baby who's going to have a cleft lip and palate.
[7:15] And so, at that point, I knew- Wait, wait.
[7:17] What was the triple?
[7:18] Yeah. Well, no, that's what I'm saying. Palate, lip. Sometimes you only get a cleft lip.
[7:24] Oh, okay, okay.
[7:25] And so it was just lip, palate, and then placenta, procreta. And this is where I will take full accountability. At that point, I mean, obviously, I had grief for the fact that there was this complication with my baby and my wife. Although, I will be honest, I didn't quite know the gravity of the placenta, procreta thing. Even a google wasn't giving me full scope of it and so part of it i did feel like there was a potential for a bit of a crying wolf situation where i was like okay i know there's a situation with the baby i don't understand this other thing but she went straight to the extreme of yeah you know i'm gonna get all my lady parts removed um it's over for me i'm i'm in trouble what do you mean like yeah so abortion.
[8:14] And then lady parts removed.
[8:16] No no no no basically i mean definitely carrying the baby to term but with that this placenta procreta the risk then is during birth it's a there's a chance that you will lose your uterus all right yeah your your uterus cervix and ovaries as wait just to save you know what i i'm.
[8:36] No doctor i'm obviously you're right so uh.
[8:38] Totally. I'll explain it. No, I'll explain it. Basically, it's like your uterus kind of starts to, or your placenta, sorry, I keep interchanging those. Your placenta starts to grow into the scar tissue left over from C-section scarring. And it's kind of almost like this web of vessels and things grows into, and it becomes completely locked in. And so the placenta isn't separate. So other stuff comes with it during birth basically and it's it's pretty detrimental um.
[9:14] I now know this looking back. But we had talked to the doctor. He's like, we might be able to save everything. We might not. We don't know until the day. So I was making a distinct choice not to panic, knowing that this was still, we had just gotten a scan. I knew we had six months. So I was like, okay, this could be bad, but let's not freak out. And that caused the beginning of some resentment from both of us because I knew she thought I didn't care enough, which again is like, she thought I didn't care enough. And I was resentful of the fact that I said, I'm sitting here going, man, this could have all been avoided because I wasn't even wanting to have another child at this time anyway. And every bad thing that's coming, I feel like it was just It's like Cupid flying too close to the sun. It's like this woman really wanted to have another kid. And I should have read the signs. I should have known.
[10:18] Bottom line is eventually baby is born healthy, you know, cleft lip and palate, obviously.
[10:25] But my ex-wife at the time loses her uterus and ovaries. And I remember this doctor was very experienced. And when he came up, he put his hand on my leg and he said, I had to take her ovaries. And he looked at me and it looked like there was an entire, you know, watch out for what's coming with just in his eyes. And he didn't even didn't even say anything else. But he just said, I'm sorry. And then here we go. You know, we have a full year. First of all, she can't pump breast milk because we immediately have to get her on hormone replacement.
[11:00] Right.
[11:01] Because she's OK. Yeah. Straight into menopause. Right. At 37 years old. So now we have to take bioidentical hormones every three months. You don't want that in baby's milk. So we're running around getting raw milk, making this Ayurvedic milk, which is actually wonderful. And it got us through the whole first year, but it was just this whole like production of getting all those logistics and feeding the baby for a year, basically manually. You have to squeeze feed with this pump because they don't have suction. So feeding, you're like sitting there drowning your baby some of the time. I mean, it was just a brutal first year, but we'd get through it.
[11:40] But during those times, I did notice attitude shifts every three months when those hormones would run out. There would be a great amount of disdain towards me. And then it would let up after a week of being back on the pellets. And I'm like, oh, brother, this is a little something. Uh, you know, and so after about a year of, you know, getting the baby through his first year, um, my ex starts to, well, my dad dies. So that happens. Uh, he got prank pancreatic cancer over, uh, during COVID and of course not detected early enough. And that one's a bitch anyway. So it got them. Um, so I lose my dad and then, you know, he made it about a year and a half with it. So he discovered he had it in like December of 2020 and he passed away in May of 2021 or no, 2022. So he did surprisingly well. I mean, he was ripped. He was an older, big muscle guy in the zone, but he fought and it wasn't going to work out, unfortunately.
[12:52] So he was gone for a couple months. And then I was like, okay, life is finally peaceful.
[12:59] Everything's fine. Obviously, my dad's no longer in pain and we're situated. The baby's fine. We've made it through that first year. He just had his first two major surgeries so we got the cleft on the lip and the upper the palate sealed up and i'm like okay like this now we can engage and and go back to kind of a normal schedule.
[13:19] Um but then things started getting weird where she ran out of her hormones again and then i will be totally honest i at that time was smoking a little bit of pot late at night after uh after long day i i was listen i was a musician forever and i stopped doing it and i got into like advertising and i don't i i took a 15 years off but i was like eh you know and i looking back it was definitely a little bit of like cope just handling like processing my father's death and stuff like that and um, But I had known that my ex, if she were to ever engage with that stuff, she had a history of if she did it for about six weeks, a very strong paranoia would set in. And so this is something you're really going to be interested in is basically through the 10 years of our marriage, we had a great marriage. But on the occasions where she smoked pot, she'd pick it up for, again, about six weeks and then start connecting dots and accusing people of things and picking fights with people. And then I would pull it. I'd throw it away. I'd flush it. And I'd be like, yeah, we're not bringing that in the house.
[14:32] So I made the mistake of trying to bring it in the house and smoke a little myself. And of course, she picked up on it. And there was this honeymoon phase where we were like, oh, man, we're just good. Everything's good. We're just living it up. And then right around November of 2022, she's been on this. She's been smoking this stuff for about six weeks. And I'm going, oh, man, we're right at that point where something could get a little weird. And then also the schedule of the hormones running out. And I noticed she starts dropping a lot of weight and then isn't sleeping as much and starts becoming extremely, extremely mean to me. Unusually mean to me. And I'm very close with her mother. And I was like, hey, this is unbelievable what I'm dealing with. And the mother was like, I don't know what to say. I'm sorry. And she had had major fights with her mother too. So it was getting very bizarre. And then out of nowhere, she goes, there's someone else. And I'm like, what? Okay, that's weird. But she had primed me by being so mean to me. That i was like man like good luck you know like i don't even know what to think about that but like whoever he is like he's got a problem on his hands if you like him you know whatever um and crap that's then i.
[15:57] Won't say that's cold.
[15:58] But i mean that's wild no i'm it is it is a little yeah good.
[16:05] Luck with your lover is is a pretty wild response.
[16:09] It was almost like I was trying to call her bluff, maybe, to get a full understanding. And so then, this is wild. So this is somebody at the gym. And so I'm up at the gym in the cafe working. And she tells me who this person is. And then I see him. And we make eye contact. And he sees me. And this is a big old dude. It's kind of funny because it's so textbook. book. He's like 6'6", jacked. And he's like 35. He's a couple of years younger. And I'm like, oh my God, whatever. And so I call her and I'm like, yeah, this ain't going to fly. You're not hanging out. At that point, I was like, I'll be honest. I became a little jealous. And I was like, dude, this ain't going to fly. We got four kids. I don't even know what I'm thinking here, even what I had said the other night when she told me that. But I was like, we have a problem.
[17:08] Because I also know, man, when a woman moves on, they've moved on. And so, in my mind, the writing was on the wall. That was a very telling, chilling moment. But then all of a sudden, she passes out at the gym. I leave the gym and the head trainer calls me, who I'm friends with, and he's like, dude, your wife is here.
[17:27] She passed out. And so, there's an ambulance at the gym. So, I show up at the gym and I shoo the ambulance off because I knew that this was just from not eating and not sleeping because she had gotten so skinny and stressed. So I got her home. And of course, I go into her phone and she's texting with him. And I call him. And I was like, hey, guy, you're talking to my wife. And I didn't get too sharp elbows with him. But I was like, yo, what's the deal here? And he's like, oh my gosh. He's like, wait. He's like, dude, He's like, we're just talking workouts and stuff like that. I don't have feelings for this woman. I don't know what you're talking about. And I genuinely... Believed him because I, the guy could stand on his own. And honestly, he's the type of guy that would probably say, Hey man, you talk, you take that up with your wife. You know, it's not my problem. And instead he was very clear.
[18:24] He's like, I thought you'd already told him that your wife has like you've four kids and no.
[18:28] No, no. He, he knew that. Yeah. He knew that. But what I'm saying is all of his interactions with her from his perspective were totally benign. And it was just gym casual yapping at the gym with some chick. And again, there could be some, he could have maybe given her the eye or this or that, but he had no intentions of pursuing anything because he himself was married and had a kid and was actually trying to have another child with his current wife. And he was like, look, dude, I'm good. I am not. And again, I believed him and I do believe him. And a little later, she called him. And I let her call him because I was just like, this is just going to play out how it plays out. And sure enough, he was like, yeah, I'm having none of this. And it was the first time I ever saw my wife turn into a 15-year-old that had been dumped. It was the weirdest thing for me to sit here and go, this woman who adored me for the last decade, in every way possible, adored me. All of a sudden, looks like she just got dumped by her high school crush and she laid in bed and was like that for a day and i was just like what is happening um so basically over the course of several months i was like okay i'm gonna i'm gonna try and save this marriage like i'm sorry yeah i.
[19:48] I almost dropped the recorder and so i just so what she.
[19:52] Yeah you.
[19:53] Confronted this guy now was it.
[19:55] That.
[19:56] What was it that made her, and I really apologize for this, it's very rare, but it happened. What was it that made her lie in bed?
[20:03] The fact that he turned her down. He said to her face, I am not interested in you, period. And so that was, that was, that was, that signaled, like, I mean, she was downright depressed. You know, she looked like, again, she looked like she got dumped. And she thought, I think she thought she had an off-ramp. And the other weird thing was she started telling me that he was a billionaire. And I was like, listen, that's exciting. But I can tell you there's probably maybe 90 billionaires. This guy ain't one of them.
[20:38] And it was just like, I started to see her creating this kind of archetype, this fantasy. Again, he was already a big guy. So he had that beast, werewolf thing going. But then, oh, Andy's got a billion dollars. you know and it was like all these things and i was like this is this is kind of odd you know and it started getting weirder why do you think she was saying that um because i think i mean well there's there could it could be one of many things either she was starting this was the beginning of her psychosis um or or it was a valid it was a valid shift of attraction from being attracted to certain type of person to having new hormones and new things and that changing um so that was that was what i was dancing with i'm sitting here going is this normal or is this you know is it the marijuana is it the the hormones or is it is it me did i drive her away did i piss her off by you know it's almost like.
[21:43] It's all and i don't know obviously i'm just skating.
[21:45] Around the outside.
[21:46] Of this but it's almost like she wants to have leverage um like like this is how desirable this guy is now whether that's leverage over you or some sort of weight in negotiations you know it's like if you're.
[22:01] Negotiating for.
[22:01] A job and it's like hey man i just won the lottery so just so you know salary is like not a big issue for me i'm working for fun then that gives you more leverage in the.
[22:10] Negotiation but it doesn't.
[22:12] Sound like she was negotiating for anything.
[22:15] No, she, that's the thing is she wasn't asking for anything other than to run off with this person. But then she said crazy things like, I'm going to take the boys and he's going to raise them. And I was like, uh, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, and again, that's where I, I like confided with her mother and her mother was like, oh dear, you know, this is, this is.
[22:33] Oh dear. That's a very muted response to a woman who seems to be seriously losing her mind. Right.
[22:38] Yeah. I mean, but yeah, then again, for her, she was, she was tracking with me though. she was hearing me. And then over the holidays, like she started spending money. Like she went and spent like 10 grand and one shopping trip, you know? And then, and then I, after the house, what? Shoes.
[22:57] Oh no. So she's manic at this point, right?
[22:59] You are a hundred percent correct. Yes. Um, so then, then come January, I'm like still trying to save things. And then like, we even hooked up another couple of times. And then I, I was like really trying to, trying to rekindle things. And again, looking back, it was a, it was a total waste. It wasn't a wasted effort, but there was no chance. I even sent her to Arizona to a suite. I spent $5,000 putting her up, just said, hey, get some rest. Please don't smoke any pot, but get settled out and we'll reconvene. And then she comes back. And for another month, we're just trying to feel things out. But there's just nothing there. And this is the worst, man, is while she's in Arizona, I have her iPad and she's on her computer and she starts journaling.
[23:50] And you know of course i'm gonna go look at her notes and i'm seeing her notes type live so she's across the country i'm seeing this this note fill up of her fantasy with this man still okay so i know it would suck to get cheated on but this was kind of up there you know in terms of hearing and again i know it was a bit of an invasion but i'm also in the process of trying to assess whether it's worth my time to even try to save this marriage. So I felt justified in looking at her iPad. But of course, I'm watching this stuff being typed in real time, explicit stuff. And I'm going, oh my God, just nauseated with that. And then she gets back in town and I'm like, okay, this is not going to work. And then she starts smoking pot again. And she says, you can't tell me what to do.
[24:44] I'm just going to do it. And I'm like, you know what? You're right. Just do it. Good luck. And about a month later, she goes out for the night and her daughter, who's 17 years old, comes to me and says, listen, my mom's telling me that the guy from the gym is talking to her through the radio.
[25:05] And I go, oh no, this is starting to get unusual. And again, we have a two-year-old, a six-year-old, and an eight-year-old that I'm kind of doing a lot of the heavy lifting for now because she's checked out. Part of that could have to do with not having those mom hormones. I mean, again, she has the hormone profile of a 55-year-old, so wanting to flee, basically. Um, but that night where, you know, daughter tells me that mom's hearing stuff through the radio, mom never comes home.
[25:40] And then I get a knock on the door from a police officer at five in the morning. And he says, are you missing a relative with dementia? And I said, no, but I have a wife that didn't come home.
[25:54] And she was found in a field praying. She had gone out that night and had met up with some dudes and they thought they were going to get lucky, but instead she took them on a spirit quest. And then eventually they said, oh God, we better call the police. She's praying in a field. And so she was picked up and then I came down to the station and got her and drove her home. And during that ride, she was telling me all sorts of delusions about the guy at the gym, you know, being, being this billionaire, who's got all these secret connections. And I was like, okay, like this whole thing has taken a whole different turn. Okay. Um, and I, I still thought that that was maybe marijuana induced and I'm still, I kind of believe it is. I believe that it's, it's ultimately stress induced, but marijuana was the catalyst to kind of push things to pop the balloon, so to speak. Um, we got her stabilized and another month went by and We were talking about still maybe fixing our relationship for the sake of the children. I know you've heard that a million times, but I was willing to make that.
[27:00] When you say we got her stabilized, what does that mean?
[27:03] Me and her mother got her home, kind of kept an eye on her and watched her and made sure she did not touch any drugs and made sure she just, we simplified her life so that we wouldn't stress her out over the course. You know just so she could like get a ton of rest basically and and she was no longer delusional she was no longer hearing things from the radio she was like back to like regular functioning adult not talking about crazy stuff well not functioning.
[27:35] Much though right just.
[27:36] Not unfunctioning correct but at least like sleeping and eating and you know giving her children hugs and you know making meals and stuff like that but definitely not you know out there killing it by any and was she aware of.
[27:54] Her sort of break from reality stuff or.
[27:56] Um she kind of denied it she was kind of like i don't know what that was and she claimed that tom cruise was with her the whole night right you know and she's like no it really was but then as she became very much more grounded she goes oh you know he just looked like him so what it was was there's this like hindsight i don't know if you want to call it like hindsight bias or some sort of historic like the way she's kind of revising the the very unusual memory to kind of fit in with like oh it's just because he looked like tom cruise whereas a week prior she was like swore it was tom cruise who was with her um so it there was a way of kind of reverse engineering it and justifying what what it was and oh that's normal i was just i just didn't sleep much that week i just wasn't sleeping you And did she get.
[28:45] I mean, how much medical stuff? Did she get hormone levels? Like, was there stuff going on that way?
[28:52] That point she was not due she had gotten a she had gotten an injection i think like a month prior so she was kind of in the window of like normal levels okay uh from what i from what i understand because we didn't we didn't like test her that often but we knew of two of three she was usually fine um but basically so a month goes by and now we're in the beginning of may 2022 and we start noticing she's not sleeping again. And she even took me aside and said, am I losing my mind?
[29:26] And that was kind of a weird thing. And then the next day, she didn't sleep. And then her mom's out of town and her mom is just kind of like, I'm kind of telling her mom what's going on. And her mom's like, I don't have a good feeling about this. It's starting to escalate, the lack of sleep. And there would be this wandering, this a lot of pacing and looking out of windows and not listening when people are talking. And then that Saturday night, May 5th rolls around and she's taking all the art off the walls in my home and putting it out in the street and wearing a robe and sunglasses. And she's saying, I'm putting on an art show. And then she starts talking about how she was talking to somebody named Dorothy all day on the swing set. There's no such thing as there's no person named Dorothy, you know, and, and she's telling this to me and her teenage daughter and her daughter looks at me and begs me, you know, we have to get her help. We have to call the police. We have to call an ambulance. So eventually I get an ambulance there and they pull up and she goes, Oh, you're here for the art show, you know, and they talk to her and they eventually convince her to get in the ambulance and they take her away. Um, and she was institutionalized for about 10 days. And, um, during that time her mother said this is you need to get a child remember to.
[30:47] Stay off the names if you could.
[30:48] Oh so so sorry no problem just let's work afterwards uh no totally do you want me to clap so you you'll find it as well okay right on so her mother says you have to get a child protective order because you can't you can't risk any possibility of of these these kids being able to be picked up legally by her. You need legal protection of them while she is not aware of her surroundings. It's a safety issue. And I was like, yeah, 100%. So I did that. And it was the hardest thing I've ever had to do. You know what I'm saying? Serving somebody papers when they don't even know. And again, we're still legally married at this time, but they don't even know what they didn't do. She didn't do anything wrong. This happened to her. So it's very ethically weird.
[31:41] It's a weird dilemma. But the bottom line is I did it. I got an emergency protection. And then so that meant she also wasn't able to come back to the house. So I put her up in an Airbnb. And then she started accusing me of poisoning her, saying, oh, the reason I was putting on an art show is because you slipped LSD into my drink. And so that was the moment where I'm going, okay, this is a real threat to me as the head of the house and my ability to be the protector of these kids. Because if I get taken off the chessboard from some weird accusation, this can't happen. So everybody in my family, everybody in her family is going, you got to do the divorce thing.
[32:28] And luckily, she came back into lucidity over the summer and her and i were able to go to a mediator and mediate a divorce and it happened we by october we had signed the divorce or by september we signed the divorce papers it was finalized a month later um during that time she did have a kind of brush with a little bit of psychosis in an incident with her mother um but she wasn't hospitalized but the bottom line is i was like trying to like move move things around so that i could be set up for success i mean the woman had told me she didn't love me anymore. God had promised her to another man. So I felt pretty vindicated in addition to the fact that she thought I was trying to poison her. I was like, I'm justified in this move, essentially. So divorce happens and...
[33:21] So you're going to definitely have some thoughts about this. But from a strategic perspective, I left the mental health stuff out of the divorce conversation because I knew if I brought that into it, it would draw it out. And I knew the sooner I got a divorce.
[33:39] Oh, draw out the length of the divorce process.
[33:41] Correct.
[33:42] Because she'd have to get it. I mean, she was already evaluated in the past, right?
[33:47] She was. But the thing is with these hospitals, I mean, they let you go. Like unless you ask that stuff isn't isn't like visible do you know what i'm saying there's no like if we're talking to even a judge that sees a oh an amicable mediated divorce he's just gonna stamp it you know he's not gonna happen to check if he she happened to be in a mental mental institution three three months prior and sorry both of uh did they.
[34:11] Put her on like fistfuls of psych meds and stuff.
[34:13] Um they did while she was there and she the moment she got out she stopped taking it okay so yeah that was that was also like you know so yeah she she wasn't taking that for a second um and divorce happens in october and we're living separately i gave her a fine settlement a fine you know alimony and then fine child support so she's got a chunk of money she's got wait child you know isn't.
[34:42] She still barred from seeing the kids.
[34:44] At this time okay yeah yeah yeah sorry and again there's so many details yeah i just want to make sure i put the story no you're you're and this is this is another thing that i it was a strategic move that was risky but honestly worked in the long run i dropped the protective order and i dropped it because she had initially i mean this is again this is like a whole path to go down but she was like i'll just i'll just go there's there's men that will sleep with me for 10 000 bucks and i'll do that and i'll use that money to fight you over this protective order is she very pretty.
[35:18] And and like good figure and all that.
[35:20] 100 yeah um 100 so i mean it's not easy to get.
[35:25] Billionaires and tom cruise to sleep with you but i guess she's got the goods.
[35:28] Yeah 100 100 and that's part of what makes her dangerous um yeah she'd stop traffic you know um so and that's also what made it pretty difficult for me i'm not gonna lie like that's that's how i got kind of looped into all this because i think any any other guy who had maybe had a little bit more like are a lot more experience maybe early on would have, noticed some things i didn't and vetted her um i just didn't i i i was like oh man this is the first beautiful woman coming my way let's do this you know and i paid the price uh, But nonetheless, I have dismissed the legal stuff so that the divorce was able to have as less friction as possible. And even then, it was just wild to me that I had to wait for a judge to approve my breakup. But he did.
[36:17] And so in October, that's done. And we're living separately. And of course, my family and her family are both saying, keep eyes on that situation.
[36:26] And I knew it was a matter of time before another incident would happen. And that would be my moment to get my kids back 100% of the time, basically. So in December, mid-December, she calls me out of nowhere and says, you got to get the kids. I don't feel well. I had a dream. Starts talking about this stuff. But to her credit, she cares about the kids enough to go, dad needs to come get you. Mom's not feeling good. And that's always that preemptive before the slippery slope, before things really get bad because eventually her delusions get a hold of her and then she believes them. Where in the beginning of these states, she can recognize them as not real, but then they eventually become convincing enough that that's her reality. So she was able to... She threw out the distress beacon. I get the kids. And then three days later, I get a call from a hospital and they say, we have a woman here and your number's listed.
[37:25] Um you know and i collapsed on the floor when because they some she had shown up she was working at a daycare of all things she had shown up there in a um psychotic state and so they called the ambulance and she was hospitalized and i remember i just went down to the floor and i was like finally like i know for sure i can keep my kids safe now and so what i did then was i did a.
[37:49] Another emergency protection order, got the kids 100% under my roof, and then filed motion to modify custody. So again, I knew it was a ticking time, mom. I didn't want to have those logistics involved with the divorce. I wanted the divorce thing to just be strictly financial, getting that sorted. And honestly, the sooner I did it, the sooner I wouldn't be bleeding out cash where she's spending my money on shoes and things like that. So I had to just get that done. And then I knew the kid thing was going to... That was my next move. So I got full custody of the kids. That's in December. And then a hearing set for January 28th of 2023.
[38:30] A hearing comes, she gets hospitalized again, so it doesn't show up to the hearing. So bottom line is she's getting hospitalized every six weeks. These cycles are repeating. I just have the kids the whole time. And now it's the reason I'm going crazy is because you stole my kids. You did this.
[38:50] And then in the spring, after another hospitalization and another missing of a court date, which funny is she's getting rewarded because I'm spending, I'm not, I'm not $30,000 in this, in this, uh, custody thing. And she's just never showing up. So I have to keep paying lawyers to like track all this stuff. Uh, and then, um, she like disappears and goes a couple of States away. And while she's in other States, she's posting on Instagram going, I'm looking for military ready men.
[39:22] My ex-husband has taken my kids. I need help spying on him to get him in trouble so that I can get my kids back. People are screenshotting this and sending me this stuff. And I'm going, oh my God. It's just in combination with being totally embarrassed that all of our networks and everybody we know is seeing this stuff. I'm also just like, what has happened to the mother of my children who I was best friends with for 10 years? I mean, that's painful stuff. Knowing that it's all in her mind and it's all true like truthfully it's again weirdly it's not her fault um but it's still happening um and basically i've had custody of the kids since december and we are still still doing these court things these check-ins and she's not showing up and we're trying to get a trial date at that point it'll be a slam dunk um in terms of you know all of the stuff all the reasons why i should have the kids obviously and her own daughter lives with me too so i it's me and four children um right now and uh because the daughter you work for me who takes care of the kids, me but.
[40:31] You're working yeah.
[40:34] Oh, yeah. I own my own company. So I get them to school and daycare first thing. I work real hard till about three. And then it's party time. And I have a partner who I depend a lot on. And I'm one of five children.
[40:49] And her mother is also helping me a ton with the baby. So it is not an ideal situation. But for all things considered, I am definitely not on my own. Um again my family has been amazing her family's been amazing so are these kids getting the very best upbringing that they could have no um but all things considered it's it's it takes a village and it's there's a village uh so i'm just i have so much gratitude for that um you know and meanwhile she's going in and out of the hospital and then she's starting to show up at the house wanting to see them and it's a very difficult thing for me because i'm not supposed to let them see her because it becomes a conflict of interest it's like then the judge can go well if she's so sick why are you letting them see her apparently it's got to be black or white they either can't see her at all or she gets custody which i'm like dude you guys can't we just figure out a little bit of middle ground here um nonetheless she shows up last weekend and says you know you you're like It's the first time ever, a very, very deep rage. And she got real close and stuck her finger in my stomach and then chomped and bit right into my ear. And her teeth connected and started ripping my ear off in front of my kids. This was last Friday.
[42:15] And it is funny because this was even before I reached out to you. So it's like the story still goes. So she does that. Luckily, she let go and I had hit record on my phone because I saw it escalating. So I got the recording of it. She leaves. I call the police.
[42:33] I press charges and got a restraining order last week. I still can't serve her because I don't know where she lives. So I'm essentially waiting for her to show up here and then I'm going to get the police here to serve her and potentially arrest her. Um but you know it's just this like vortex of so many variables to figure out like i mean i guess the why this happened it's just like bad stuff happens it's like getting cancer you know like bad stuff just happens but the hard well you know no cancer it doesn't.
[43:07] Just happen not to everyone.
[43:10] I suppose you're right. I'm just saying in terms of trying to wade through it, and I do have a history of depression and anxiety, but luckily I've stayed above water on all of it. I just go to the gym and work out a lot and eat right and sleep. And so I'm like staying mentally with it. And again, it's all for these boys and my stepdaughter, who I just refer to as my stepdaughter, even though we're not legally. But that's keeping me going. But the priority is them. But it's also so difficult knowing this poor person is out there alone. Um she is refusing to get help she is she and again i'm like you're gonna hear other details and you're gonna go oh my god you know like for instance in june she had an episode and she was at her grandmother's and she got in the car and drove off and then the grandmother's sitting on the porch and sees her going 90 miles an hour getting chased by three police and she was in a high-speed police chase across three counties. They had to spike strip her. And then she tried to run them over. And they put her in the hospital again, and she's out eight days later. It never happened. And she didn't even remember it. And you know what's even funnier?
[44:35] Sorry.
[44:35] When I got my ear...
[44:36] Oh, she doesn't go to jail? Is that right? Because she's considered to be crazy, so they put her in the hospital.
[44:42] Yeah.
[44:42] But...
[44:47] But the hospital lets her out yeah and she is she is a salesman like you have never seen when she when she comes back into focus she will she'll sell ice to an eskimo i mean it's like hey uh you're gonna let me out because this this this and i can do that and and again they do stabilizer so she talks herself right out of there and she's back on the street but it's wild because like she bites my ear last week and the police run run her name in the system and there's oh she's got a perfectly clean record and i'm like uh yeah you know wouldn't well that's pretty right yeah yeah no it totally it's real it a hundred percent it is it is real yeah she i mean listen like if she yeah she'd been the wrong color who that yeah that she wouldn't have made it that far unless she's pretty in the.
[45:31] Wrong color yeah no i i.
[45:32] Mean i get.
[45:33] It i get it.
[45:34] Totally totally um and again stupid joke but um nonetheless it's it's the thing i'm kind of i'm sharing this as like a, cautionary you know like you know it's a wild story and it was it was this like really nice marriage under the right conditions and things very much deteriorated um but i'm i'm now faced with this problem where i'm doing horrible things you know to a person who doesn't know, any better and so they are i have to i have to walk around under the assumption that if this person thinks i'm taking their children the way that they believe that then they're going to want to kill me you know well because in their mind crazy.
[46:20] As you say i'm looking for military men right.
[46:23] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and she, she did even purchase a gun at the beginning of the year and we told the judge and we got it confiscated.
[46:31] Right.
[46:31] Um, and there was no, there was no threats because the thing is she too, she's very paranoid. And she, when she is kind of in these states, she also avoids me because she believes that I'm like the mastermind behind all this stuff. You know, it's since the beginning, I've been slipping, you know, LSD into all of her meals. And so it's like, there's, there's that whole component, but it's, it's really hard because she's just completely refusing to get help. And my, my poor young children are, they need their mother. They need a mother, you know, and it's not possible, obviously, but they're asking questions. They're seeing in the scheme of things they're other than last week they honestly were pretty shielded from like any of like the major like you know explosiveness like they didn't really see any major drama so that's great but you know they're dreaming about her my middle you know kid he's waking up he's like i had a dream about mommy i want to see mommy you know and it's like i am the one preventing that without question um but she is a danger prevent and, protecting them well yeah i am preventing them from seeing her absolutely well no well not no i'm the one i mean i've.
[47:46] Done a lot of listening right let me get a word in edgewise okay.
[47:49] Yeah okay slow you roll and let me please you're calling me for some feedback right no i know i've been talking too much i'm right no no.
[47:57] It's not too much it's just that when i do have something to say don't just start immediately talking over me because then i just feel like i'm a prop right then you i'll just then i'll go have an.
[48:05] Exercise i'll.
[48:05] I'll let you talk and then i'll come back later, right? Because I haven't, you know, we've been talking for almost an hour, and I've not, like, said almost anything other than some clarifying stuff, right? Is that fair to say?
[48:18] You got it.
[48:21] Sorry, I'm not sure if we're still connected.
[48:24] You there?
[48:25] Yes, can you hear me?
[48:27] I can hear you. Can you not hear me? Yeah, yeah, I got you.
[48:30] It's kind of coming and going. All right, just let me know if I can hear you. Oh, you can hear me?
[48:38] I can hear you, sir. Okay.
[48:41] So, no. So, you're not preventing them from seeing her as in their mother. Because she's not herself.
[48:51] True.
[48:52] Right? I mean, if she was horribly drunk, passing out, slurring her words, throwing up, right? You say, well, you're preventing me from seeing my mother. It's like, no, I'm preventing you from seeing not your mother, but this drunk woman. So this is an important category.
[49:13] Yeah.
[49:13] You're not preventing them from seeing her, because if she was her, you wouldn't prevent it. She's not herself. She's a dangerous, half-cannibalistic, ear-chomping, Mike Tyson-style lunatic. So you're not preventing them from seeing their mother, because their mother is not their mother. And it's just important to have that consideration.
[49:39] Under no because it's kind of.
[49:47] You're kind of garbling up a little bit. Can you try to say that again?
[49:53] This person is too sad and it's a long way.
[50:00] I'm so sorry. Let me try moving.
[50:01] Can you hear me?
[50:02] Yeah, you're kind of garbling up a little bit. Let me try moving where I am and see if that helps. I didn't have any trouble before. Just try sort of responding to that again.
[50:11] Yeah, can you hear me?
[50:13] Yeah, that seems all right now. Sorry, go ahead.
[50:15] Yeah i was just saying it's it's it's like a death it's like this person has been lost to us and and then we get these like it's it's a tease when she shows up and we we hope that it's her but it's not you know no it's worse than a death but you're absolutely right hang.
[50:28] On hang on it's not because a death is closure this is like death.
[50:33] Plus zombie yeah it really is it really is and that's what that and it's it's it's also so hard for for her daughter you know um her 18 year old is just just devastated you know by by the big change in her life and not feeling you know not knowing where she fits in and then you know yeah seeing her mother slowly go go bye-bye you know wondering.
[50:59] If that's in her life in the end to come.
[51:01] Yeah or any of my my boys for that matter You know, we, they all, they all share a mother, you know, and that you got to wonder if that's, yeah, it's like, that's my goal is to prevent it with these kids, you know, and, and to, to your point too, I do, I do say to myself, I'm doing right by her, by the person that I married by making sure her kids are okay. You know, and that's how I kind of am able to like reframe it, you know?
[51:29] Right. Okay. So how do things stand at the moment?
[51:35] I'm literally just riding it out, trying to work, trying to keep these boys engaged. It's tough. They're a lot. And I'm literally waiting for any moment for her to show up at my house, and then I will call the police and get them to serve her. And I'm waiting for official legal custody, but really I'm trying to move on with my life. And all of us are. And like you said, it's like the zombie it's like you you want the closure but there's no closure because there's this outlier orbiting variable that that comes into the comes into play every few weeks and totally disrupts us you know um so yeah there's there's no there's no ending it's just at the moment and it's just this roller coaster there's there's a couple ways this can end one i'm not going to mention and two is if she gets you know starts agreeing to take whatever medication or whatever deep treatment. My hope is that the legal stuff will catch up with her sooner than later. Part of the reason I'm pressing charges for the ear thing is not to punish her, but I want a judge to look at everything and go, boom, you need to spend 90 days in a facility.
[52:42] Sorry, you said there was one at the beginning and you said very quickly what it was. You said one and then two is the legal stuff.
[52:47] Oh, I said the other one, I don't want to utter the words, but the idea of something something bad happening where where she hurts herself oh yeah yeah okay i got it you know between the high-speed police chases every time we're all on on edge wondering if we're gonna get that call you know if she crashes or does something like that so i'm just saying that's one way it ends or there's a you know there's an intervention that that is convincing enough where she has to where she's either convinced herself or she has to get help you know, either, either scenario, but there's a narcissism element to this where it's, there's nothing wrong with me. And that might be preventing her from ever, you know, like taking accountability for it, you know, for any of this. Because it's all everybody else. It's all her mother and her daughter and me doing this. The people that were closest to her. We all did this, you know.
[53:45] Right. Okay. Okay. So either she takes herself out through self-harm or there's some legal consequence and she's just locked up, maybe not in prison, but in some sort of treatment facility. And they don't just turn her loose, right?
[54:01] Exactly, yeah. And well, the other thing is we keep trying to get her mother to get conservatorship and like medical power of attorney because that's another route. But apparently, I mean, it is like pulling teeth. Like it becomes a whole legal battle and it puts the mother on the other side of the table from me in the custody dispute, which still hasn't been officially ruled upon. So it's like, so my lawyer's going, dad, don't do that yet. Do first get the kids situated and then then have mom do have the mother of mom do that so it's not they don't like cross crossover so to speak so that that's another that's another route that we're considering um because i'll be honest man i still care about her and i'm not i'm not trying to like you know pursue a relationship but this is a human you know and that's but again my feelings can be getting in my way you know i probably could have saved an earlobe by being a little bit more, uh, steadfast. And I know if my dad were still here, I am probably, yeah, he would have advised me differently to, he would have told me to be a little more hardcore with this.
[55:06] You mean earlier on?
[55:08] Yeah. Earlier on, because technically, yeah, technically I have been, um, um, empathetic um oh and there's another funny another funny element to this too is about a month ago funny.
[55:21] But anyway come on.
[55:22] No um the the guy from the gym um called me a month ago and he said hey man do you got a second and i was like oh yeah what's this about and he said that he went to pick his child up from school and the child his child was walked out of school by my ex and his ex had, or my ex had become a substitute teacher at his child's school.
[55:46] And yeah, so she was stalking him and he was asking me if I, he's like, dude, we looked her up on case net and we couldn't find any legal stuff to, to, cause we called the school to get her fired and they couldn't get her fired because none of the legal stuff was on, on record. And I'm like, man, shame on this judge for like kicking the can down the road because there's like bad things that could have happened or could happen because this isn't like you know situated um but that was that was very alarming too and he you know he had just wanted my help and i i we chatted for a while and i helped him again he's he's kind of a cool guy and he's like dude you know i don't really know what to tell you i can tell you where she worked at the daycare and you might get your the school to call the daycare where she was let go from for coming in there having an episode and that's what happened so she he his problem was solved but nonetheless it's just like there's always these crazy crazy things happening and again it's it's it's very obviously very very serious and i'm like you know focusing deep on these kids but emotionally too it's it's it's obviously difficult for me um it's just it's just hard it's just tough man as you would imagine oh.
[56:58] Yeah absolutely and so i guess this sort of came around with the pregnancy of your fourth kid right and so how long how long has this been going on for.
[57:05] Um started we're on we're on two years and this month two years was where it all started two years ago around november right okay.
[57:19] Yeah.
[57:21] And again, again, though, before that we had these brief, like little brushes with like the weird paranoia and stuff, but that was specific to, to, to pot smoking. And that's the other thing is like, you know, this stuff's legal. And it's like, I went on, I went on X and was like having these conversations with other people about how their lives would get uprooted for a full year, you know, from psychosis, marijuana induced psychosis. And it's like it's this thing that like you you can learn about it if you look for it but it's definitely not out in the open and it's like part of the reason i felt compelled to even you know obviously i know you have all this insight but i'm like man people need to know that, you know this stuff this stuff's happening you know it's absolutely happening right.
[58:04] And i mean i remember posting about this stuff like i don't know 10 or 15 years ago just how.
[58:09] Dangerous marijuana.
[58:11] Is and how different it is from sort of the boomer weak source stuff uh it's really concentrated and powerful and yeah it a lot of schizophrenia does come out of uh marijuana abuse as far as i.
[58:22] Yeah so.
[58:23] Yeah it's tough.
[58:24] Yeah it isn't it's it's hard to get the cat back in the bag you know and again there was clearly predisposition and i think extreme it's like anything like extreme stress We all have our thing that can manifest under extreme, you know, if we break. And that was, this was what manifested with her when she broke. She created a fantasy and, you know, all the delusions and violence and everything just turned into a monster, basically. You know, but, but I, you know, I, I know I've talked a lot and I, I appreciate, you know, getting to kind of chat with you again. I'm kind of in fanboy mode too, but, you know, I'm just, I don't, I don't. Know that there's any answers, you know, like I'm just trying to like apply the principles of stoicism and just kind of wait along and, you know, treat my body well so I can stay happy and be the protector and stuff. But I don't, I know you also have had experiences with like, you know, stuff with your mother. And this is, you know, now that I'm, I'm bringing these kids up in this world where they've had a sick mother. And I wonder just if there's anything, any advice you have for, for how I can talk to them, what, what you wish somebody may have told you as you were navigating this complicated stuff with your mother. Cause I, I'll never know what that's like, but my kids are going to, they're, they're going to be living this, you know?
[59:44] Right. Right. Well, I mean, I don't want to, I know I said earlier, I wanted to give feedback. I want to make sure that you've said most of what you need to say, because I don't want to, if there's stuff in there that you still want to get out, I'm, I'm, I'm happy to hear.
[59:57] No, I, I think, I think I've, I basically, I think you've heard enough to know, you know what I'm saying? To have a lay of the land. I could go on, but they're all just details of like, oh man, that's nuts. Like every, every story would just, you'd just be like, oh, that's crazy. Like she ran from the police one night and she evaded them for 36 hours straight without sleeping on barefoot. It was insane. Like, but that's just a story. And you're like, oh, that's nuts. You know? So I'm, I'm ready, man. If you have feedback, I'm, I'm more than ready.
[1:00:24] Well, what's she living on?
[1:00:27] I am. So I was a crypto. I bought some crypto. So I gave her half of my crypto in the divorce. So she has that. And then whatever cash that I gave her in the divorce settlement and then alimony. So there's a little bit, but it's been burnt through significantly. I don't have to pay child support anymore, obviously. um and technically i'm i'm not entitled to give her alimony because i put a cohabitation clause in the divorce that said if she ever moved in with anybody that i wouldn't have to pay and she's gone off the radar and she won't give anybody her address and she was living with a friend so like technically i don't even have to pay her alimony um but i just did because again And that's part of this like me that feels sorry for her and wants her to be able to eat and pay rent, you know. So, yeah, that is how she is living.
[1:01:25] Okay. Yeah. I mean, just in the present, it's really crazy to me how somebody can be this dysfunctional and still be loose in society.
[1:01:35] I got very angry with the police last week after the ear was spitting. And I said, why aren't you guys looking for her? And they were like, sir, you don't worry about our investigation. And I was like, man, well, could you just at least have an investigation? Like no one's called me and checked on me. And it got infected. I had to go get on antibiotics. But yeah, you're correct. It's only a matter of time before the envelope is pushed enough to, yeah, she should not be out there as we speak, driving around and wandering around and functioning in society because she's not.
[1:02:08] Well, she should not be. I mean, she's attacking people, biting people. She's picking up strangers' kids against their will. She's going on wild police chases. I mean, somebody's going to get hurt or killed probably in the long run.
[1:02:21] You're correct.
[1:02:22] And it's also preventable, and it's just part of the whole crazy world that we live in that you just can't keep people safe.
[1:02:31] I i never knew like with the legal system i used to think it was like oh man if you do something bad you're going to jail no apparently somebody has to pay to get you to jail like i that's like news to me as an adult i was like wait a minute like a prosecutor has to want to prosecute like i gotta go down the court next week and convince the prosecutor to press charges still like what right yeah it's no you're right we're all brought up.
[1:02:57] With this like fantasy tv cop stuff right.
[1:03:00] Yeah.
[1:03:01] Well, if you do something bad, you're going to don't do the crime if you can't do the time, you know, and you're just going to get caught and you're going to get prosecuted and, and just the facts. And, oh yeah, it's all, it's all, yeah, it's all mostly nonsense. I mean, it's, uh, if they don't pick you, you're in trouble. If they don't particularly care, you're probably okay.
[1:03:18] Yeah. Yeah. And in another world, maybe I'll try, try taking up a life of crime, knowing how easy it is to get away with. Kidding, kidding. But my God. Yeah. So that's scary.
[1:03:29] All right. Okay. So you've known her in, in aggregate for how long?
[1:03:38] 20 years.
[1:03:39] Okay. So from late teens to late thirties, I can't remember. So I can't remember how old you were.
[1:03:43] Yeah, that's exactly right. Yep. Yep.
[1:03:46] All right. So what was it? That led you to be susceptible to a personality with this potential? I mean, whether it's, you know, dominoes from earlier or something later, we can talk about in a bit, but what was it that had you be susceptible? Because I assume that she was never robustly stable.
[1:04:08] That you're correct. And what I would say is, you know, a lot of this is my learnings of like, you know again accountability and analyzing myself um i think i you know i could be wrong here but it could boil down to the fact that i was a late bloomer um i was overweight until i was about 18 years old and i still maybe saw myself as that so i just didn't like by the time i was 21 22 like i was rocking and rolling but had only been with i don't know hadn't been with enough like i'm not trying to say that it's good to like go you know i didn't date enough i think that's the thing oh dating is fine.
[1:04:46] I mean you don't want a high sex count but dating is fine.
[1:04:48] Yeah i let's just say i had a i had a low enough count and i had low experience in dealing with women and so this was the first um you know eight or above that gave it completely love bombed me and gave me full attention. And so I was ignoring potential red flags very early on. And I think, again.
[1:05:12] That's the... I'm sorry. That's a terrible answer. I really apologize for saying that. But, of course, young men, young, dumb, and full of cum, right? Like, a young man are dumb and horny. I mean, to some degree, right? So that's all understood. Your father understood that. Your mother understood that. Your older relatives, your grandpa, everybody understands that, right? Yeah. So it's not you can't put it on yourself, right? I mean, young men with, you know, high quality sexual access, it's like two-year-olds with candy, right? Well, I just didn't have the self-respect. Well, no, but it's your family's job to encircle the wagons and make sure you don't fall into a pit of crazy.
[1:05:54] Yes. And honestly, that brings another thing to mind is I noticed being the youngest of five when I was very young, and if I did have crushes and stuff, My family would be like, ooh, you got a girlfriend and stuff like that. And so it made me like kind of keep quiet about that stuff. And it didn't encourage a lot of open dialogue with like my parents or my mother about like navigating relationships.
[1:06:16] But that's sabotage, right?
[1:06:18] Yeah.
[1:06:18] And also it's diminishing your feelings. I mean, if you do have a crush on a girl and you're a little boy, I mean, that's really important. You don't just do ooh. You're right. You know, that's just so retarded. Honestly, that's, sorry, that's an insult to retorted people. But it is something that you just don't do, because it does cause the kid to clam down and renders the kid to be highly susceptible to manipulators later on, because you are keeping secrets.
[1:06:45] Yeah.
[1:06:45] Okay. What the hell is going on in your family that they're mocking your attractions when you're.
[1:06:53] So in like, to be totally honest, and again, you may pick this apart and, you know, if you do great.
[1:06:59] No, no, I don't need the editorializing. I'm going to assume you're going to be honest. So whatever you say, to be totally honest, I wonder what you've been doing before. So that's a bad, just, just, and don't editorialize, just, just, and don't try it. Like, I know you're going to do this or you might do this. Like, just let me do my thing and just give me the facts.
[1:07:13] Yeah. Yeah. my yeah i mean youngest of five and i was a you know i was kind of the cute baby of the family and so it was just more like oh got a girlfriend okay god sorry i kept using my name sorry that's all right but it was that it was that like tone and i i mean in terms of why they would do that i think it was just amusement i mean it was just you know and it wasn't it was also like i think my mom just didn't my mom it was mainly my older siblings but if my mom she would be curious and ask a lot of questions and i'd just be embarrassed about it and that may have been because of the other siblings with their you know the way they you know saying about it or whatever so then it then my mom would go oh tell me more tell me more and i'd kind of shut down and so yeah it kind of that combined with again in my teen years not being like highly attractive or perceiving myself in that way, it may have shaped how I chose a mate.
[1:08:16] Okay. And how heavy did you get?
[1:08:19] I would say, I mean, it wasn't that bad. Like looking back, I was probably like, you know, freshman year, I was probably 180 pounds, but only 5'8", 5'9". I wasn't obese by any stretch of the imagination.
[1:08:32] But I was- Was that 40 pounds overweight?
[1:08:34] Yeah.
[1:08:35] 40 pounds?
[1:08:35] Yeah.
[1:08:36] I mean, that's a lot on a 5'8 frame.
[1:08:39] Yeah and again i i'm estimating it was it was it was like uh you know the kid from stand by me but like you know older but you know so hang on hang on hang on.
[1:08:49] So how what do you mean you were estimating didn't you weigh yourself you mean you get weighed at the doctor's right.
[1:08:54] I knew what i weighed but i didn't know my height i can't tell you my exact like it.
[1:08:58] You would get measured for height at the doctor's too.
[1:09:00] Yes i i don't remember okay i don't remember what Why.
[1:09:06] Do you think you got heavy? Um, were you a happy couple?
[1:09:13] I was in fantastic shape early until I was about 11. Um, I did have a hamstring injury just from a wrestling match on the playground with a friend. And that slowed me down a little bit, but I don't know. I mean, I was, I chalked it up at least at, you know, at the time to, Oh, it's the fat state. It happens to a percentage of young men where some, Some young men grow tall and then put on weight, and some put on weight then grow tall. And that had been my paradigm. I believe that I had just put on the weight before getting the height.
[1:09:46] Well, yeah, but aren't you talking like half a decade?
[1:09:51] I mean, by the time I was maybe 17 or so, it was definitely not as significant at that point. So I was starting to come out of my shell, even in young adulthood.
[1:10:06] 11 to 15, 16 is sort of what I was going with, right?
[1:10:09] Yes.
[1:10:09] Okay, so four or five years. And did you grow beyond 5'8"?
[1:10:13] Oh, yeah. I'm six foot now.
[1:10:15] Six foot. Okay, got it. All right. So for half a decade, you were overweight.
[1:10:19] Yes.
[1:10:20] And how was that allowed?
[1:10:26] It was...
[1:10:27] I mean, your parents were in charge of your meals, right?
[1:10:31] Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I would say that there was a degree of being the youngest of five. And also, my parents divorced when I was 16. They were distracted. They were not neglectful, but they were distracted. And again, yeah, my mom- No.
[1:10:48] Come on, man. Come on. Let's be frank here. It is neglectful to let your kid pack on 40 or 50 pounds of extra weight.
[1:10:57] Yeah, I suppose you're right.
[1:10:58] I mean, that's neglectful, right?
[1:11:01] Yeah.
[1:11:02] Okay, so they weren't neglectful.
[1:11:05] Yes.
[1:11:05] And the fact that they were going through a divorce, that's not an excuse.
[1:11:11] No, it's not. And again, with my parents' fault, I guess my point, I'm eager to defend them because I love them and I know they're great people. But yeah, as parents, that's a miss. So you're correct.
[1:11:25] Okay. So that's extra fat cells that are ready to be activated, right? So it's a problem. And also, it's tough for a teenager to be overweight, right?
[1:11:38] Oh my God, yeah. And all my kids, all my friends, all my buddies were killing it. They were looking good and they had grown differently and they were getting girlfriends and this and that. And yeah, I was invisible. That was not, and I know that that lens stayed with me for a while. It still is here.
[1:11:54] Okay, so that's more than just a miss. I mean, that's turning crucial development years into a kind of hell.
[1:12:05] Yeah, you're right.
[1:12:06] I mean, pool parties aren't fun. You don't want to go to the beach. You don't want to take your shirt off. It's self-conscious all the time, right?
[1:12:14] Oh, yeah.
[1:12:15] And watching all of your friends killing it with the females and you're like a puddle they have to step over. I mean, that's brutal.
[1:12:22] Yeah, it was. No doubt.
[1:12:25] Okay. So your parents didn't help you. What about your siblings who care about you?
[1:12:30] They were, but around that time they were at college and things like that. Like they were all, you know, over four years older than me. So I was kind of, I was kind of alone at home.
[1:12:40] You were just Mr. Excuse guy. Holy crap.
[1:12:45] I just feel like it's not there.
[1:12:47] So they were at college and they just didn't have a relationship with you. They didn't have any idea you were overweight. They never came back home. They never sat with you. They never talked with you. Phones weren't invented. Like, come on, man. The fact that someone's at college doesn't mean that they can't phone you and ask how you're doing and check on your weight.
[1:13:04] I think they did not. They did not think that I would be receptive to their feedback. They did not want to offend me. And because there were, there were a couple instances where things were brought up and it was, it was awkward and I was, it, it, and people, everybody got weird. And like, I was, I was, you're so funny when you mentioned the beach thing, I was with the whole family and we were at a beach and I insisted on wearing a wetsuit to cover my body. And I, uh, my brother needed the wetsuit to go skiing and everyone's standing around skiing. Yeah. Water skiing. Oh, water skiing.
[1:13:43] Okay. Sorry. Canada. So yeah.
[1:13:46] And everyone's like, give them, give them the wetsuit, give them the wetsuit. And I'm like, no. And my youngest cousin, cause give, give it up for, you know, the young kids, you see it as it is. He goes, Hey, you're not giving them the wets, the wetsuit. Cause you're afraid you look fat. And I mean the entire, you know, 12 people all got real quiet and then they just, okay, keep the wetsuit on. We're out. And that, that keep the wetsuit on. We're out is sort of like the, I think these, what they, how they handled, you know, knowing, okay, I was not in great physical shape, but they felt sorry for me and did not want to hurt my feelings.
[1:14:18] Well, no, if they didn't want to hurt your feelings, they would talk to you about your weight because that's the best way to stop hurting your feelings is for you to get to a healthy weight.
[1:14:29] Yeah, you're right. I mean, they didn't know how to, they weren't emotionally equipped.
[1:14:33] Oh, my God. Excuse, excuse, excuse.
[1:14:36] But I mean, it's not like they were bad people. You know what I'm saying? It's not like they wanted me to suffer. And I guess not caring, you could say that makes them not great people. But to me, it's like they felt bad for me and didn't want to upset me.
[1:14:53] So their whole point of parenting was to not upset their kids. Is that right? Yeah so you didn't get punished you didn't get spanked you didn't get corrected you never got yelled at you never got like because they didn't want to make you never got taken to the dentist you never got taken to the doctor because they didn't want to make you feel bad right that the whole purpose of parenting was to have you not feel bad.
[1:15:15] No i mean believe me the the.
[1:15:17] Limit your candy intake or.
[1:15:21] Um, I, you know, what's funny is I didn't eat that. I didn't really eat bad. I think it, I think it was just honestly the dumb school lunches. Cause they serve ice cream for lunch at school. Like, and again, I'm not, I'm obviously that should have been on my parents' radar, but it wasn't like there, my house was full of ding dongs or anything like that. Like we, we had a pretty solid menu. They weren't feeding me crap. And they like, we had fam, we had a, you know, seven people up in there at there on Sundays, sometimes eating good meals. Um, so it wasn't, it wasn't like, yeah, it wasn't so much like that, but yeah. And again, other things were taken care of, you know, I was going to the dentist, I was doing all the other things. This element was not factored in, but I think they did not.
[1:16:05] You said that they just, they didn't want to make you feel bad and they didn't know how to, what X, Y is like, talk to you about your weight, right?
[1:16:13] Correct.
[1:16:14] I mean, you didn't enjoy going to the dentist as a kid, did you?
[1:16:17] No. And they made that happen.
[1:16:18] Okay. So they made you go to the dentist, even though it made you feel bad. So they knew exactly how to do it.
[1:16:24] I suppose you're right. Yeah.
[1:16:25] And also if there's something you don't know how to do, you hire a professional. Like, I don't know how to clean my daughter's teeth. So we hire the dentist, right? And so if your kid is having trouble with weight and you don't know what to do, you say, okay, we've hired a nutritionist. You know, we're going to get you a personal trainer. Like if you feel awkward about it, You just, you outsource it to someone else, right?
[1:16:47] Correct. Yeah, you're right. You're right yeah i mean and and knowing that i mean how do you like i guess yeah i just don't know i i feel like i either way should not resent anybody for that looking back even though yeah i mean you're it's clear there was a there was some some balls dropped there with raising me and it it could be a cascade of you know everything leading to where i am today um which is also I mean.
[1:17:16] You're talking to me about severe troubles. I mean, honestly, one of the worst situations of a marriage that I've ever heard of. And so I'm asking, what's the genesis of this, right? And you say, the first thing you brought up was being overweight as a teenager.
[1:17:32] Yeah, yeah.
[1:17:34] Okay, so that's important, right?
[1:17:40] 100%.
[1:17:40] As a young man, how old were you when you got involved with your ex-wife?
[1:17:46] 33 was actually married i i had known her a decade prior and we were sort of on and off but it was, normal healthy and i had been with other i had like a different long-term girlfriend in my 20s but then yeah we like rekindled when we were when i was 33 and i was married probably or 30 32 and was married a year later and then now that we're at 10 years later now um.
[1:18:12] Sorry i thought you were in your late 30s?
[1:18:15] No, no, no. I'm 43. Sorry. She's, yeah, yeah. She turned 42 months ago.
[1:18:21] You kind of glossed over the 20s thing there, right? So you met her in your late teens and you married her like 12 or 13 years later. Is that right?
[1:18:27] Yes. But I had moved away to California and lived a different life a little bit, and then moved back to my hometown. And that's where we reconnected.
[1:18:41] Yeah. Okay. So, you know, this story, I don't, I, I, I, sure, sure. So, so when did you first get romantically involved with this woman?
[1:18:48] Very, very, very first was just like a hookup in, you know, like when I was 21 and she was like 19, something like that.
[1:18:58] Okay. So you slept with her when you were 21.
[1:19:01] Yeah.
[1:19:02] And she was 19.
[1:19:03] But yeah. And again, yeah, I could have been 22 or 23. I don't know the exact age, but yeah it was early 20s okay.
[1:19:10] And so what when you say hookup what do you mean.
[1:19:13] Yeah i slept with yes no.
[1:19:16] I understand that but you can sleep together with someone in a relationship i mean was it just.
[1:19:20] Like you.
[1:19:20] You you went on a date or you met at a party and did it on the coats like i'm not sure what you meant.
[1:19:25] No um there was like two or three months of of like us hooking up maybe once a week um and then i ended i ended it because i was like at the time i was in a band and i was like pursuing like a actual like professional music career and i was traveling a lot and touring and i it was our plan to go to to move to california and do the thing you know so i was not at that time able to be the person she wanted she wanted a husband and to start a family and do that thing. And that was not, that was not what I was interested in doing at that time. So I ended the relationship and it was not, it wasn't like dramatic or anything. It was like, eh, you know, we're not, things aren't aligning basically. And then I moved back to town 10 years later and we crossed paths and then.
[1:20:19] Oh, so you didn't talk for like 10 years.
[1:20:21] Correct. Yeah. And that's when she went and had a child with somebody else. And that's how she was a single mother when I met her the second time. But yeah, we did not speak for 10 years because i was in a different i was with somebody else and obviously yeah i wasn't going to talk to old flings yeah.
[1:20:36] Okay okay so you got together once a week for a couple of weeks i'm not sure if it was a hookup or a relationship or what.
[1:20:45] Would you call it um it i would it would qualify as a relationship to me and my limited experience it was significant um but it was you know i'm saying because one of the very few people that i was like intimate with so i would call it, I would call it a short, a short relationship, but a relationship. Yes.
[1:21:04] And how long after you, um, How long after you were in a romantic situation did it take for you to sleep together?
[1:21:15] Not very long. Probably two weeks.
[1:21:20] Okay, so two weeks after you got interested in each other. I'm just trying to understand.
[1:21:25] Yeah, yeah, totally.
[1:21:26] Sleeping together, what was the time frame?
[1:21:28] Oh, again, like two weeks max, maybe 10 days.
[1:21:33] Okay, so you were dating for 10 days and then you slept together.
[1:21:37] Correct. Okay.
[1:21:39] And then you slept together another couple of times and then you moved to California.
[1:21:44] Yes. I mean, I moved to California a little later after that, but I had broken things off because I noticed that she became very clingy and was really coming on hard in terms of wanting a relationship. And I was not like a deeper committed, you know, and I just knew that wasn't in the cards in the near term for me because I was, and it wasn't because I wanted to go be with other women. It was because I wanted to focus on my career, um, and travel.
[1:22:15] And at her level, her level of interest made me realize very quickly, I wasn't going to be able to travel without a lot of problems and, um, also move away one day. You know, she didn't have plans on moving to California. I knew that was going to happen. So, yeah, I was kind of saving both of us some trouble by not proceeding.
[1:22:36] Okay, so let's look at those 10 days. Because, I mean, I think that's the genesis of it, right? At least the sort of first phase. So, did she say that she wanted something more than a situation ship or a hookup or something? Did she say she wanted that before she slept with you?
[1:22:56] No.
[1:22:57] Okay, so she slept with you, having no idea if you were interested in a longer-term relationship. Correct okay and then she sleeps with you a couple of times and then she starts you said clingy i mean she i mean she's falling for you she wants something more boyfriend girlfriend she wants something more permanent maybe leading to marriage and that's not what you want.
[1:23:17] Correct yeah and and and it was going for me going from zero to to a hundred is i i wasn't ready for that because again we're talking i still saw myself in a different way and wasn't used to.
[1:23:32] Like no no you You did it.
[1:23:33] Actually. Sure. Yeah, absolutely. And that was part of, again, yes, you're correct. And part of that was out of, honestly, like I was trying to catch up and that's not a good thing. That doesn't, you know what I'm saying? I'm not saying that proudly. I'm just telling you the matter of fact, as a 21-year-old guy who had a, not a lot under my belt, I was also- Or 22 or 23.
[1:23:56] Let's remember, you're not sure, right?
[1:23:58] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But the point is, I wasn't going to I wasn't very discerning at the time in terms of who I who I was with. No, I get that.
[1:24:06] I get that. But she wasn't either.
[1:24:09] Correct.
[1:24:10] So do you think that she knew what she wanted, but was hiding it from you or she didn't know what she wanted? And even maybe she was surprised at the depth of her feelings or attachment for you.
[1:24:19] I think it it's hard to know. It seems like it could have been the latter because more of that stuff kind of came out. And even after I ended things, there was efforts to reach out to me and to try and, you know, like she showed up at my house a couple times in the middle of the night knocking on my window, like stuff like that that was like, eh, get away, you know. So then I was like, okay, yeah, this person is definitely more interested in me than I am with her.
[1:24:48] Oh, no, that's kind of stalky, right?
[1:24:50] Yes, 100% is, yeah.
[1:24:52] Okay, so she didn't say what she wanted. She kind of sex bombs you. She gets really attached. You want to break up, and she gets a bit stalky, right?
[1:25:01] Yep.
[1:25:03] Okay, and that means also that she's untutored. She's unparented.
[1:25:09] That is a fact, yeah.
[1:25:11] Okay, so what's the story with her parents back in the day?
[1:25:14] So her mother is great, very nurturing, and I think the issue is with her father.
[1:25:21] Everything you say about parents other than facts is suspect, just so you know.
[1:25:24] You're an excuse machine.
[1:25:26] Right?
[1:25:26] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[1:25:27] Okay, so just give me the facts a little bit rather than great and wonderful and nurturing and fantastic, right?
[1:25:34] So, yeah, her mother, I just don't, I don't see a lot of faults with her mother. So, again, I could have some blind spots there.
[1:25:40] She was untutored and unparented as a hot, gorgeous young woman. That's dangerous. You were neglected for health and food and nutrition and exercise, and she was neglected in the wild power that a young, hot woman has. In the sexual marketplace.
[1:25:57] Okay. Fair.
[1:25:58] I don't let a young hot woman wander around trying to figure out how to make things work.
[1:26:04] Yes.
[1:26:05] I mean, anyone, but especially that, right?
[1:26:07] Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's, you're right. It's a ticking time bomb. And in her, I guess her mother is a good person, but was dealing with her dad. Most of the time they were together. Her dad was a narcissist, um, big shot owned a company. She actually worked for her dad he was he was a ceo of a company and he oh my god i mean if i told you his story it's just a whole other show but he left her mother in the dust after i married my ex after we got married the dad left the mother in the dust for a 22 year old he's mid mid 50s at the time for a 22 year old um person in another country um i'm trying not to like give too much like clear information but he he died bro yes but in 2020 black socks.
[1:27:00] Loud shirt atm card okay.
[1:27:01] Yes but then he went to this other country for a elective surgery um and was killed during the surgery um and yeah so it but yeah there's all sorts of anger with her towards her father obviously.
[1:27:19] Died from medical error right.
[1:27:20] Um medical error but there's still an ongoing lyric like lawsuit um oh yeah so medical error but but the bottom yeah i mean the bottom line was he he lost his life um in another country under anesthesia trying to keep up with a 22 year old um which was yeah i mean getting some.
[1:27:40] Sort of performance enhancing or youthful appearance facial thing or.
[1:27:45] Yes, lipo.
[1:27:46] Got it. All right.
[1:27:47] Yeah, that whole vacation package thing that some people do. But yeah, so he passed away mid-50s, which again, was definitely – and he was very – he and her definitely had a complicated relationship. Not really.
[1:28:08] Not if he was a narcissist.
[1:28:10] Well, she was scarred by the fact that he ran off with a 22-year-old. And she even had said to me, you better not do that to me one day.
[1:28:21] So why do you say he's a narcissist? I mean, obviously, we're talking these terms in an amateur fashion, but what is it that you mean?
[1:28:28] He had no problems going back on his word on things. Like, for instance, he had agreed to pay off her student loans, and then he decided to move into Trump Tower in Florida and just said, the reason you didn't get that money this month for her student loan is because I'm not doing it anymore. And then she got upset with him because he did not pay for her wedding. And at the same time, a week later, married this woman and put on a whole charade and she called him out for it and he took her out of his will. So he practically had the capacity to disown his daughter for calling him on not doing, you know, the right, doing what I guess traditionally you're supposed to do. And his reaction to that wasn't, oh, I, let me fix this. It was, oh, let me take you out of my will. You know what I mean? And, and having no emotion leaving his wife who, you know, you know, there, there, yeah, he was, he was not a.
[1:29:31] Why, why, why do you make me work this hard, man? You're killing me here. Okay. Remind me how long you've listened to what I do?
[1:29:43] Since 2016, probably.
[1:29:45] All right. So a good eight years off and on, right? Obviously, it's not constant.
[1:29:48] Yeah, yeah. I found you when they did their thing. I found you.
[1:29:55] Do you know what I'm referring to when I'm like, why do you make me work this hard?
[1:29:59] Well, I'm assuming you're calling me out for my making excuses for people. Um i'm assuming that's the theme that you're picking up on right um but again it's it's in my what aspect what.
[1:30:12] Aspect am i calling you out on.
[1:30:15] Uh probably related to her mother right and parenting their their parenting um and again i'm just i'm yeah i'm just i've been dealing with these people for a while and i just i've seen the the bad person and the person who isn't equipped to deal with the stuff that's been thrown at them.
[1:30:36] Okay, you just make a bunch of noise. Okay, not always, but in this case, right? Okay, so you're saying that her mother is a kind, wonderful, lovely person who just mysteriously married a cruel, selfish, narcissistic asshole.
[1:30:51] They married at 17. So? I'm just saying, yeah, that was all...
[1:30:57] So she had a chance to date him, she had a chance to evaluate him, and she also dated got engaged got married and chose to have children and chose to stay, yes and she chose to get married at 17.
[1:31:10] Yes, absolutely yeah i mean but but again i mean does that make her bad like i can make it you could agree that it's a bad decision and it changed everything and i mean no question but in my mind And am I judging that person? And like, talk me through this. Like, do I judge people who screw up through omission for not doing the right thing? Of course, we can sit here and look back and go, God, why'd she get married at 17?
[1:31:38] Okay.
[1:31:38] I don't know what she was thinking.
[1:31:39] Hang on. Hang on. That's not, it's not one decision. It's not one decision. It's a whole series of decisions because she was still with this guy into his 50s. Was he older?
[1:31:55] No, that's about right. Mid to late 50s from, yeah.
[1:31:59] So was he older?
[1:32:00] Oh, yeah. He was older than her when they were married, yeah. Or when they met, yeah. I want to say maybe seven years older.
[1:32:09] Okay, so she's 17. He's 24, something like that, right?
[1:32:14] Yes, I believe. And mind you, too, they were in a town of probably like a couple thousand, like where everybody knew each other.
[1:32:22] Oh, so she knew this guy's nature probably from early on. Everybody knows everyone's families and all that kind of stuff, right? Yes. Okay, so she had massive amounts of information.
[1:32:35] Yes.
[1:32:35] And she chose to go ahead.
[1:32:38] Yes.
[1:32:38] She also took a bit of a shortcut by marrying an older guy. So a woman who marries an older guy is trying to jump the queue a little, right? Because you're supposed to marry a guy roughly your own age, and you go through those early settling down struggles together. But he was further ahead by seven years, which means he's got more career stability, more wealth. She can more easily evaluate him in terms of his potential.
[1:33:01] Yeah, I will clarify that his success did come well after they were married, but she was, yeah, able to assess his potential. You're correct. Yeah.
[1:33:09] Okay. So it's a bit of a shortcut, right?
[1:33:12] Yeah, absolutely.
[1:33:14] And her parents should have been protecting her by evaluating him and his family.
[1:33:21] Yes.
[1:33:23] So, um, and she did choose to... Date, get engaged, get married, have children, and stay with him decade after decade. That's not one decision, right?
[1:33:36] It's many, you're right.
[1:33:38] Well, it's endless decisions. Does your ex-wife have any siblings?
[1:33:44] Yes, a younger brother.
[1:33:47] And without getting into details, of course, right? Roughly, how's he doing?
[1:33:52] At this very, very, very, very moment, he is doing great. He is a, but there's obviously more. he did have addiction problems that involved a bad accident, about 10 years ago or no yeah it was 20 years ago and he spent time in jail because of the person in the car with him was killed, during because there, was alcohol.
[1:34:20] Wait he was.
[1:34:21] The drunk driver.
[1:34:22] And he got someone killed.
[1:34:22] Correct so he spent 10 years mother i'm just i know i i'm not saying again i'm not saying she's a wonderful mother i'm saying she's not a a bad human you know what i'm saying like no no i'm.
[1:34:37] I'm not gonna let you get away with that you introduced her as a warm wonderful person.
[1:34:40] Yeah i mean she is she's she like i don't know what to say like she made bad decisions and she screwed up and bad things have happened and yeah it's her fault but i'm saying that she's not a person who like you don't like there are people out there who suck you know i'm just saying she doesn't she's not like she's she's trying to do the right thing and she's always trying to do the right thing and it's the limits of her knowledge and experience to where she's going to make bad decisions and bad things are going to happen i'm just saying i'm just not faulting her for that you know what i'm saying i'm not like but yeah i mean the son got got got mixed up in some bad stuff and he wound up in jail for a decade he got out and, you know, found Jesus and he's been clean and sober for eight years and he's got a family and he's doing.
[1:35:25] So this woman raised two criminals.
[1:35:28] Yes.
[1:35:31] I mean, could you just take a fucking deep breath and absorb that and help me understand how that looks from the outside?
[1:35:39] Oh, it's, I know. This is the sort of thing. So I will tell you too, my mom comes from, my mom's family would remind you of the Von traps um you know german like six kids and they're all you know singing on the hillside and very wealthy um my mom had always told me that she goes there's like like yeah she had made those remarks about the the side of the tracks that her family comes from that was yeah definitely mentioned.
[1:36:10] I don't know what you're talking about. Sorry.
[1:36:13] Um, my let's, my mom had a high horse and she, the, the stuff, the, the thing you're referring to as like, if you ever heard the term like redneck.
[1:36:21] Of course.
[1:36:22] Yeah. So there's, there's a component where, yeah, my, my ex's side of things has a redneck element. Whereas my mom had a very like upper class, you know, um, looking down on, you know, in, in may did make me aware of that, that they, she thought that my ex's family was pretty dysfunctional.
[1:36:43] Ah, okay. So when you started dating in your early 20s, you started dating your ex. What did your parents say?
[1:36:52] My parents didn't know. Again, I was out on the town. I wasn't introducing people to my mom at that time.
[1:36:59] Okay, so you weren't close to your parents?
[1:37:02] No, not in that respect, no.
[1:37:04] What do you mean? That's the most important thing you're doing as a young man is the dating that you're doing.
[1:37:09] This this harkens back to the early you know stuff where i i didn't i wasn't eager to share with them my relationship status based on i didn't it reminded me of when i was a kid and being taunted about it basically right i get that but.
[1:37:26] You you lied to your parents you you hid things you lied by omission right.
[1:37:30] Yes okay.
[1:37:31] So you can't lie to people about very important things that you're doing and then claim to be close to them.
[1:37:40] Okay fair okay.
[1:37:42] So okay so we'll have to skip the 10 years she goes out she gets she becomes a single mom right.
[1:37:47] Correct and.
[1:37:49] Was she married she got married.
[1:37:51] Right because she said the dad.
[1:37:52] Didn't pay so she got married to the guy so she wasn't like a baby mama she was like a divorcee.
[1:37:57] Right um no no no she was never married oh.
[1:38:01] I thought you said the dad wouldn't pay for her wedding.
[1:38:03] Her father that when you were asking me why her father's a narcissist i was saying he didn't pay for her wedding to me so.
[1:38:10] That not paying for her wedding indicates she got married to me.
[1:38:13] To to the person you're talking to not the other dude i said to you okay so sorry you know what how.
[1:38:21] Did she end up as a single mother.
[1:38:22] Um broke up with i broke up with with the guy i don't really know much more i actually i know the guy i know her ex and he's he's cool um he's normal guy they They just, their relationship didn't work out. She did claim that he was abusive, but I question that because clearly things in my world turned upside down. So I, now looking back, I'm like, oh, great. You know, she's out there telling people I'm abusive.
[1:38:51] Okay.
[1:38:51] Sorry.
[1:38:51] So when did she tell you that her ex was abusive?
[1:38:56] Probably a year after we were together.
[1:38:59] And how long were you together before you got married?
[1:39:02] Year and a half.
[1:39:03] Okay. So before you got married, your ex, who was a single mother, told you that the father of her child was abusive.
[1:39:10] Correct.
[1:39:11] Abusive how?
[1:39:13] Verbally. Mostly. Yeah. I was like, was there ever any physical stuff? And it was all verbal. And the words gaslighting and things like that were used. And narcissist, she described him as a narcissist. Sure, that's never happened before. Where a woman's described their ex as a narcissist. But yeah, those are the red flags I'm talking about that you're picking up on it and you're going, why didn't you double click on that? You know, and that's a good question.
[1:39:42] What did you think of her parents when you met them in your early 30s?
[1:39:50] So I met them only twice while they were together because they lived in another state and they had come in town. And I my my impression impression was just oh they're you know dad's a disconnected you know but a big shot just like doing his big shot stuff and got his head in that world um and the mom just seemed nice but I mean honestly the mom was attractive so my friends would go oh man well you're you're good to go because you can see what she's going to look like in 20 years so nice work you know that was honestly like honest answer i i i thought i had a good future with my current uh person because the guy.
[1:40:31] Chose chooses a younger woman mostly for her looks.
[1:40:33] Yes huh.
[1:40:35] I'm sure there's no patterns there.
[1:40:41] Um no you're i mean you're you're calling it how you see it man but that's trying.
[1:40:45] To reflect back the things that you're saying to me and what was.
[1:40:48] Your ex's.
[1:40:48] Childhood like that you know of.
[1:40:50] Um i believe peaceful but not clearly not attended to meaning that i don't believe that there was a lot of attention um yeah i don't believe she got a lot of attention i think her her father and her may have had i i actually i mean i do suspect some And I don't know how, maybe through maybe relatives or some, some incident only because like some sort of sexual abuse, honestly. Um, but that could have.
[1:41:16] It's one of the problems, sadly, with the very attractive women is that the, uh, molesters find them very attractive as children.
[1:41:23] Yeah. And, and I don't know, I honestly don't know if it was when, if it was when, if it would have happened in her, like, like teens or what, but there was, there were certain things that she kind of disclosed to me where like she had had some weird incidents. And one time we were...
[1:41:46] I'm so sorry. You just cut out what you said. And one time we.
[1:41:51] Oh, one time when we were intimate, the word hurt me. Quote, hurt me.
[1:41:57] Hello, hello.
[1:41:59] Hey.
[1:42:00] Sorry about that. You sound clean now.
[1:42:01] I don't know.
[1:42:02] No, I think that was at my end. I don't know what the heck happened. Sorry, you were just... You were just talking about how it was the hurt me thing.
[1:42:11] Yes. Yeah. So I noticed there was a, there was a, that was uttered at one point. Um, and so I was like, and, and she had mentioned like a couple, I don't know. She had mentioned things, um, related to her childhood that, yeah, we're definitely red flaggy weight, but this was honestly during our divorce.
[1:42:31] Uh, right. Okay.
[1:42:32] You know, just everybody's been abused, you know, just like all that stuff. I bet you have no idea. But, yeah, at the end of the day, I do suspect some sort of abuse could have taken place. And like you call it out, yeah, somebody that looks like her, it's not hard to believe.
[1:42:49] Right. Okay. So she never directly, but there's indirect sort of evidence, right?
[1:42:54] Correct.
[1:42:55] Okay. All right. And did she have a lot of other relationships or was it mostly just this baby daddy?
[1:43:03] Um you know not as much not not a lot um i would say um, More than me, but not more than most women who look like her. So yeah, because she was honestly very conservative. She liked gardening and homesteading and being very... She wanted to homeschool the kids. She did homeschool them for a while and she did great. There was a lot of these sides of her that were very nurturing. Yeah, so the bottom line is no, I don't suspect that she had a lot of partners. But when the when things blew up that's all that kind of went away and she was you know like i said when she went out that one night i was like where where's she going you know like what's she doing um so i was concerned there was a side of her that might be a little uh yeah a little, trying to think of the word but uh promiscuous right okay okay but i didn't believe it going Going into the relationship at 33, I did not have any reason to suspect that.
[1:44:13] Right. Okay. And you, of course, had mentioned about the marijuana use not being very good for her. And what happened? What was her drug use as a whole?
[1:44:23] So he was completely sober except for what occasionally get like try out marijuana but she was sober because her brother because of what happened to her brother so she was like i'm never touching stuff because my brother got somebody killed so she was sober for for a very long time other than the one time she what like a couple yeah like three or four times she'd pick up marijuana smoking and after six weeks would like turn and like turn into like a mess and create like a whole bunch of sorry.
[1:44:57] Do you know did she talk about did she use marijuana when she was younger.
[1:45:01] Um, as a teenager, maybe 16, 17 for the first time, not before that. Um, so yes. Um, but wasn't like, I don't think habitually was just, you know, delved a little bit or, you know, dipped, dipped her toe in a little bit socially, but wasn't like a, a stay at home, you know, stoner all day person or anything.
[1:45:26] Okay. So she didn't really drink. She didn't use a lot of marijuana um did she have what does she do in terms of mental health practices i mean we all need the right societies yeah yeah trying to make us crazy on a regular basis so what does she do as far as mental health practices um.
[1:45:42] Honestly mostly fitness yoga.
[1:45:45] Um that's physical health what about mental health um did she do any therapy did she keep a journal did she um have conversations about sort of deep, important things? What was her moral code or moral structure? That kind of stuff.
[1:45:59] So she did, she, church, she did not do therapy. She did journal a lot and her moral code was very traditional. And that was part of the reason I, that was what I really liked about her. She was very buttoned up and, you know, do the right.
[1:46:16] I got to tell you, I'm a little confused. I'm sorry to be, you know, I'm just, I'm just lost. Okay, so I don't know that, sleeping with a guy after a week or two and not telling him what you want and then becoming a baby mama and bearing false witness by accusing her ex of abuse which you think is fabricated and withholding possible, bad sexual experiences when she was younger uh and i i don't i don't see the traditional thing here i mean isn't it tradition to date for at least a while before you have sex at least with the purpose of marriage and aren't you supposed to get married to the father of your children and aren't you like um where's the traditional stuff here i don't follow yeah.
[1:46:58] You're correct and so this is this is where it comes into an experience on my part in the.
[1:47:04] No no you know now god almighty You just told me that she's traditional. Her morals are, she's very conservative, very traditional. Gardening and household like that, right? And I'm saying, well, nothing that you've told me is even at all traditional. It's the complete opposite of tradition and of Christianity. And then you're like, well, it's my naïve. It's like, no, you just told me this, though.
[1:47:28] No, no, no, no, no. But what I'm saying is when we were 33 and first got together, it was honeymoon. and it was like that for.
[1:47:36] Almost a decade no she was a baby mama you knew that when you got together she didn't hide the kid in a closet did she.
[1:47:46] No but what I'm saying is that is something that I had my blinders on and I'm.
[1:47:51] Aware of it you saw the kid what do you have blinders, so she couldn't have been traditional if she was a baby mama and she slept with you very early on in your quote relationship i.
[1:48:06] Believed her words i believed her words and my i was not acting according to her actions in what i knew of her actions i was believing her.
[1:48:16] Words she said i'm a deeply religious highly conservative baby mama and you're like she's pretty sure yes okay so why do you believe words and why do you not judge actions when you listen to a guy for eight years who's a staunch empiricist?
[1:48:35] Um... I am going to, I, I honestly, it was, that's, that's the question I I'm sitting with. I mean, that is exactly what I'm sitting with. That's part of my own like journey of personal development and figuring out like, yeah, you're saying all the right things, implementing those things into practicality. It is, it is something I'm.
[1:48:57] I'm obviously always claiming is the complete opposite of how she's lived.
[1:49:02] Yes, that, that, that is.
[1:49:05] Okay. Okay, so why do you listen to people? Because this is the battle you and I are having. It's a foundational battle we've been having for almost two hours, is you keep saying stuff to me, and then the evidence is the complete opposite. You live in a world of words and illusions in a lot of ways, right? Because you keep saying all of these things, and then the evidence is the complete opposite, and you don't notice the disconnect. Like, so you say, oh, no, no, her mother was great, right? She's wonderful, warm, caring, blah, blah, blah. Well, she did marry a narcissist and produced a guy who killed a guy and a woman who went insane and bit my ear, but she's a great person. And you say, oh, well, my parents are wonderful, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, they did allow me to get fat and they didn't inquire about my dating and they let me kind of wander into some dangerous situations and get a stalker at the age of 22.
[1:49:54] Yes.
[1:49:55] Right? So you keep saying stuff that's sentimental and it's false regarding the evidence. So you i said where do her morals come from and she said well she's you know conservative and this and that the other not like what she pretended to be conservative funny story turns out she actually wasn't right you literally told me i said where do her morals come from and she said well she's religious and she's very conservative like you didn't just tell me she was a baby mama who slept with you after two weeks yeah.
[1:50:27] So i guess what i'm saying is her morals in the way that she portrayed herself.
[1:50:33] No, no, that's not what you're telling me. No, no, I've got to be strict with you. That's not what you're telling me. This is a pattern, and I'm trying to help you with this pattern. I don't know that you're going to listen, but it's worth a shot, right? I'm trying to help you with this pattern that you believe people's self-reporting. I'm sure her mother thinks she's a, oh, her mother says, I'm a wonderful, warm, caring person, and you're like, sounds good to me. And your parents are like, well, we care about you. We just love you so much, and yet they let you get fat and get a stalker. And your ex says, well, I'm religious and I'm conservative, and you're like, sounds good. I'll believe what you say about yourself. I won't compare anything to the facts.
[1:51:18] Yeah, I mean, you're right. That's what I'm saying. I'm taking accountability for, I'm taking accountability for exactly where I've wound up right now. You know what I'm saying?
[1:51:29] I've wound up where I'm- Bro, bro, you're not listening. You're not listening. I'm trying to give you a big picture and you're just going off on a tangent. I'm trying to give you a big picture. I'm trying to give you some self-protection for the second half of your life because it's fucked up so far, right?
[1:51:44] Yeah.
[1:51:45] So you're calling me to get some help. I'm trying to help you. Don't filibuster me. Now, you don't have to agree with me, but I have evidence for everything I'm saying.
[1:51:56] I'm trying to help you. I'm telling you that you nod when people tell you about themselves, and you don't compare their vainglorious claims to their actual actions. Because you keep telling me about everybody's wonderful, good, nice, kind, excellent nature, and then you describe actions that are the complete opposite, and you don't notice this disconnect.
[1:52:23] I understand what you were saying.
[1:52:24] And then you keep telling me, well, then I just have to think that they're terrible people. But that's bullying yourself. Well, if I don't listen to people tell me how wonderful they are and believe it and echo it back to them, then I just have to think they're evil.
[1:52:38] Well, it's obviously not black or white, but that begs the question.
[1:52:41] No, that's what you tell me, though. Because when I point out criticisms of people, you say, well, I'm not just going to call them bad.
[1:52:53] Yeah i want again that get that's that's where we are that that that honestly like does raise questions like what is bad is bad omission is bad no no you're filibuster again.
[1:53:04] I'm trying to help you and you keep going off into abstractions.
[1:53:07] Okay what do you what then what do you want me to what how do you like i understand but i'm saying what do you want me how do you want me to respond here and i'm not being like a smart ass i'm like no genuinely curious like what is i'm.
[1:53:20] Trying to help you. I want you to get that when people tell you they're wonderful, you agree with them. And you don't compare their claims to actual facts. So you meet your ex, right? You meet your ex after 10 years. And you know that she slept with you very early and got kind of stalky, right? And didn't tell you what she wanted, and then got kind of weird around the breakup. And then, you don't talk to her for 10 years, and during that time, she becomes a single mother to a guy she claims is abusive. I'm not saying that's all she is. Oh, and she was also raised by a narcissist and a woman who decided to give children to a narcissist. Which is really toxic.
[1:54:15] Yeah, I mean, again, red flags for days.
[1:54:18] Red flags. Okay, so red flags for days. These are the facts you knew about before you got married.
[1:54:24] Yes.
[1:54:24] Okay. So she says what to erase all of that from your mind? Or she just cast those pearly whites in a nice rack. Like, what are we talking about here? How did she get you to completely erase her entire actual known history from you and admitted history? How did she get you to erase that from your mind and you to say, this is a great mother for my children?
[1:54:55] It was a combination of me not thinking enough of myself and then her amazing persuasive skills with words. I didn't I didn't I wasn't confident enough to believe I had other options.
[1:55:13] So everyone has just amazing persuasive skills. Her mother, your parents, her, everyone is just able to silver tongue caress you into compliance with their own vanity.
[1:55:29] Um i mean i i guess um no i mean believe me like i i again obviously this is a this is a vast picture like the person who i am believe me like i i deal with i deal with a lot of stuff i, like in the in these instances yes what you're saying is correct and they are they've created problems that have cascaded and ballooned. And here I am. But I'm saying that I'm a pretty successful guy. I'm making deals all day. I'm doing work. I'm telling people that no and yes.
[1:56:03] Okay, you're filibustering now. I don't know. Could you feel that happening to you?
[1:56:06] Well, I have to explain. I have to give you some context to who you're talking to versus like- No.
[1:56:11] You don't. No. Listen, bro, you just gave me two hours of context.
[1:56:15] Yeah. I told you all the bad things that have happened to me. And so you're just able to look at it and go oh yeah you made a bad decision but it's like dude i i wanted i'm i'm i'm you know i've i've had a great life i'm doing great things i've my kids are awesome like i'm like i'm just you're you're reducing me to like some bad decisions with bad people where i've let them get one over on me and i'm i agree with you so i'm not i'm just letting you know that it doesn't drive my every decision isn't driven by people's ability to seduce me you know that's, That's all I'm just making. I'm just clarifying that. But yeah, it has happened. And I'm so, you know.
[1:56:50] That's defensive, right?
[1:56:52] Yeah, yeah.
[1:56:53] So why are you wasting time being defensive when you could be getting good advice?
[1:57:00] I'm just I'm just adding more context to this scenario so that.
[1:57:06] OK, did I ask you for more context or is that just you trying to justify things based on your ego?
[1:57:12] Um perhaps yeah i feel i feel a little bit like yeah i feel a little bit attacked and again all respect i'm not like bummed down or anything am i am i i'm not calling you a fool.
[1:57:22] Or a bad guy or an evil guy or anything like that.
[1:57:25] I guess my the main thing is i'm not feeling like there is a there's a winning there's not like a way a response that i'm at this moment i feel limited in my ability to respond to you which will which you would say yep that's it And that's because clearly I'm not equipped. And that's why I'm talking to you in the first place, because you know your shit. So I'm stoked, believe me. But I also don't, like, you got me. Like, I'm like, okay.
[1:57:50] I'm not trying to get you. No, I know.
[1:57:52] I'm not trying to help you. I'm saying you, I know, I know. And that's, you are helping me. I'm not in any way, like, again, I'm thankful for all of this. Believe me. I'm saying you have uncovered some very important stuff. And so I'm like, here for the ride. But I also don't have, I'm not able to answer, I'm not able to answer your questions because you have clearly unearthed some things. So I'm here for it. Let's just say that. But I'm also like, I don't know what to say because yeah, you're breaking it down, you know?
[1:58:23] Okay, well, you know, when you don't know what to say, the important thing is to not say things, because that's what I'm calling filibustering, is you're making a bunch of noise designed to distract me from the core issues that we're trying to work on. So it's great that you notice that you don't have anything to say, in which case you can just say, tell me more, but don't go off on a filibuster, because that's noise, right? And I'm not trying to attack you, I'm just sort of pointing that out.
[1:58:42] I got you. I got you.
[1:58:44] Okay. Because here's the issue, right? Obviously, you're not responsible for your wife going crazy, right? Obviously, right? However, that having been said, so I think she put a bunch of delusions about herself forward to you, and you accepted her words, not her deeds. So you gave her own self-delusions additional power over her and you. Because she said, well, I'm a traditional girl, and I'm conservative and I'm, you know, blah, blah, blah. To which, you know, I mean, it could be possible to say something like, well, no, you're not, right? I mean, with all due respect, I would say this to a woman I was dating who said I'm conservative. I'd be like, no, not really, because I remember you slept with me very early on. Now, of course, you were in your late teens, so, you know, we can understand that. But, you know, in the 10 years that I haven't talked to you, you did have a number of, I guess, fairly short-term relationships. That's not conservative.
[1:59:44] You did not marry, you got pregnant before you got married, and then didn't get married, and then you claim that the guy is abusive, and that's not conservative at all.
[1:59:59] You may want to be conservative, that may be a goal of yours in the future, that may be a belief that you have now, but it certainly isn't how you've been behaving, I mean, just in practical terms, right? Because we all have these things that we want to believe about ourselves. We all have these things, and it's really, really important to say, do they match actual reality? Do they match the facts on the ground? So that we can tell the difference, right? And if your ex says to you, I'm conservative, and it's one of, you know, half a dozen things that we've been talking about, but it's the one that's easiest to sort of push back on empirically. So if your ex says to you, I'm Christian, I'm conservative, this, that, and the other, then she's putting forward a hypothesis, right? A theory about who she is. And if you point out, well, no, that's not how you're acting, right?
[2:00:51] If you point that out, that it's not how she's been acting or behaving at all, that's important. Because then she can say, oh, I guess it's easier to describe myself as good than to actually be good. Like if good is like not having a baby outside of wedlock and things like that. And then she has the difficult task and the rewarding task of saying, I have to actually be good rather than just talk about being good. Talk about going to church, talk about whatever, right? I actually have to be good. And that gives her empirical tests to her ideas about herself. Because the one thing that, and again, I'm not saying it's your fault and maybe it couldn't have been changed at all, but the one thing that happened that I got out of her early conversations was that she was self-indulgent and that is again I don't know it could be organic it could be the drugs it could be but let's just say that there was some philosophical way to prevent her self not you because you can't do it for her but let's say there was some philosophical way for her to prevent herself from going crazy? Well, it would be, I have a very odd thought, right? I have a very odd thought. Let me compare it against reality.
[2:02:14] And we all have odd thoughts, right? I thought, hey, I can be a rock star. And then I listened to myself sing, and I'm like, hey, I can't be a rock star.
[2:02:24] I did the same.
[2:02:25] Yeah, yeah. And you went a million miles further in your, quote, music career than my couple of instances with a garage band, right? So we all have these theories. I'm like, oh, I feel like I could be a good writer. Okay, I'm going to write down a bunch of stuff. I'm going to read it back. I'm going to hand it over to people who know what they're talking about. Like, we have, oh, I think I might be good at philosophy. Oh, I'm going to write down a bunch of stuff. I'm going to put it out there in the world and blah, blah, blah, right? So, we all have these theories about herself. And we have to test them rigorously against reality so that we don't get vainglorious, right? You know, I'm sure that in the music world, right, I'm sure you met about a zillion people who were like, oh, man, those pop songs, they're so cheap and easy to write, it's ridiculous. To which you'd say, well, write some, make a silly dollar and then go be a jazz musician and play a thousand notes to three people in a basement.
[2:03:25] Right.
[2:03:26] So everyone has these these theories or these ideas about themselves. And that's good. That's part of ambition. And what's important, I think, in life as a whole is to rigorously test our theories against reality.
[2:03:43] So question for you that and that's that's exactly that sounds exactly right and it tracks but do you think that's only like a characteristic of highly intelligent people like i know you think like that i think like that too i'm always like wait how does reality isn't matching up with this theory that i can sing i no one's agreeing with that so i'm gonna.
[2:04:02] Stop right but.
[2:04:02] Like i feel like other people don't do that like they're just and it's not even is it their fault that if they're like just kind of dumb or.
[2:04:09] And i'm serious i don't i i appreciate the filibuster and you getting me to talk about other people and tempting though it is i'm going to decline but what i am going to say is that and you'll hear this when you listen back to this right is that you keep portraying people in a certain way and then their actual actions are the opposite of what you're saying so you don't do this test with people you might do it with yourself i'm sure you do and that's to your credit, I'm sure you do it in the business world. You deal it with crypto, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? So fantastic. But what I'm saying is that in the realm of personal relationships and in particular with women, with women, you take their self-statements at face value and you will not compare what they say about themselves to what they actually do. And that puts you at great danger.
[2:05:00] Yeah. And it puts me where I am or put me where I am. So you're correct.
[2:05:04] We can't do anything about that, but we sure as shit can do something about what's coming down the pipe, because guess what? You're an attractive, wealthy man still only in his early 40s.
[2:05:16] Yeah, no. And yeah, I got to watch out for the landmines. And this is, okay, so this is a limiting belief, but I'm just going to say it. Like, my concern is if I have this discernment, I'm going to be alone. Because man, in today's age, it is weird out there. Like, everybody.
[2:05:33] It is weird out there it is weird out there and you better stop being able to see the weird, because it's coming for you yeah weird is coming for you because you've got resources and you're good looking and you're articulate and you're a very intelligent man and a great guy to chat with by the by right and so weird is coming for you and you better be able to scan for that shit and this is what I'm trying to tell you, this is the skill the radar that I'm trying so you don't fly blind is that people will say all kinds of crazy stuff about themselves, all kinds and you have to rigorously test their theories and statements about themselves, with actual, tangible practical, factual empirical, testable reality We'll be right back.
[2:06:29] You're right, man. I'm over here emoting, but it's like, man, I'm going to be alone.
[2:06:37] No, but this is your black and white thinking, which I completely understand. And obviously, look, we don't have to get into this because you're a smart enough guy to do this on your own, but I guarantee you this was a demand of your mother's. You had to support your mother's self-perceptions or she would have rejected you, which is why if you don't affirm what women say about themselves, you feel like you'll be abandoned and alone. This is straight out of childhood, straight out of your mom.
[2:07:03] Yeah.
[2:07:04] Am I wrong?
[2:07:05] You are not wrong. I mean, that's something I need to delve and unpack on my own, but I think you're 100% correct.
[2:07:14] Yeah. So with your mother, if you had said to her regarding her beliefs about herself, if you had said to her, I don't see the evidence, she would have gotten really mad at you, stormed out and neglected you and you would have felt terrible. So you basically just had to like, yeah, mom, you're absolutely right. And then you come to this woman who's very attractive, just as your mother was, and she says, well, I'm conservative and I'm this and I'm that. And you'd be like, come on, pull the other one, man. I mean, you can do it nicely. You can say, listen, I understand that might be a goal of yours. I get that. Or maybe this is something you've changed. But help me understand what is conservative about your life's choices so far. Help me understand what is Christian and conservative about your life choices so far. You don't have to be like snort, snort, you self-deluded witch. You can genuinely ask people. I don't see it, but I'm sort of happy to have it explained to me. All the old explain it to me like I'm five years old or Jesus or both or something like that, right? But you have to have that filter because you've got four kids under your care, custody, and control. They cannot take another crazy woman. They cannot take another crazy woman. So you, the way that we keep crazy people away is they say a bunch of stuff about themselves, and you say, I don't really see the evidence. I'm sorry, I'm just getting to know you, but help me understand how this has shown up in your life. And if they get really angry, then they're crazy, and you get them away from your kids.
[2:08:40] Yeah, you run. Well, and truthfully, I think I had in my early childhood this upbringing of you just don't question adults.
[2:08:47] Right.
[2:08:47] And that was what my parents put down. And so that was instilled. And therein lies the beginning, the genesis of a problem. Because you're right, I couldn't then say, reality isn't matching up with this observation that I'm seeing right now before my eyes. Because it was always, whatever dad and mom say goes. We're old school, or whatever.
[2:09:09] Right. Right. Yeah. And that's not fair to children at all. Because we are out there in the wild. Like, it's one thing for your parents to say, you have to trust us completely. Okay, then you cannot mock your children's dating preferences and then abandon them to the fucking sharks of the free market of dating hell out here, right?
[2:09:30] Yeah, it's one thing to say.
[2:09:32] Kid, I got your back when we go out into the lion infested jungle and then turf the kid out with no cover.
[2:09:40] Yeah, you're and it's funny because I am with my boys, even, you know, in my second grader, if he has a crush, I'm like, hey, man, just let me know. We can talk about it. Cool. But if you don't, that's cool, too. Like, I'm so careful because I'm like, I don't want that to happen to that where they feel embarrassed or weird. I'm very mindful.
[2:09:58] Yes, but you also are not particularly, and listen, you're a great dad, so this is just a tiny, tiny tweak, but you do want to say, it's really important to talk to me about this because it is.
[2:10:10] Okay.
[2:10:11] Right? Because the saying is like, well, fine, if you don't want to talk about it. No, it's really important that he talks to you about it because he can get his heart broken at grade two as easily as grade 12.
[2:10:22] Yeah. No, you're totally right. Yeah, I guess my initial thing was that I just at least let them set, I'm setting the stage for comfort and openness and that. But yeah, it's something I plan on when, you know, definitely being involved in their, you know, relationships. Because I know, I saw what happens when you don't.
[2:10:41] Right, right, right. So, yeah. So, listen, I mean, my particular thought and theory is, I mean, it sounds like, obviously, I'm no expert in any of this. It's just an amateur idiot opinion but uh i mean it sounds like your your wife is gone, yes like tipping point has passed and uh whatever she's done maybe it's drugs maybe it's bad really bad behavior maybe it's criminal stuff i don't know right i mean it's hard to verify any of this kind of stuff right but uh it sounds like she's you know off the deep end and it doesn't sound like she's coming back anytime soon from what i mean again i don't know but that would be my my obviously idiot.
[2:11:18] Yeah. I'm, I'm not counting on it. That's for sure.
[2:11:22] And yeah, Obviously, I don't know what to do about anything to do with that other than, you know, it seems wise to do what you can. She's probably going to be safer in some sort of lockup than she is out on the streets because it's not just the self-harm. You know, she's speeding away from cops at high speed. She could plow through a kid's playground, right?
[2:11:42] Oh, my God. Yeah, exactly.
[2:11:43] So we don't want any repeat of what happened to her brother, right?
[2:11:49] No.
[2:11:49] So, yeah, I mean, it seems like that might be a good idea. Obviously, trust your lawyer's advice and your own instincts and all of that.
[2:11:57] But, yeah, just in the future, you know, because you're an attractive, intelligent, wealthy, great conversationalist, excellent guy, women are going to come floating into your orbit and they're going to have a whole bunch of stuff to say about themselves. Be skeptical. You know, skepticism is really, really healthy and important. It is really, it's, you know, the only people who are bothered by skepticism are narcissists.
[2:12:21] And you know for the sake of the kids i'm going to strongly urge you to be absolutely free to be skeptical you know like if somebody comes to me and says uh i'm skeptical i i don't think you're a good philosopher i'm skeptical that you know what you're talking about at all i mean am i going to get mad and throw things and storm out no like hey that's skepticism is the essence of philosophy that good yeah you should be skeptical right and so i really really want to give you skepticism that was not allowed to you as a kid. You just had to nod when people praised themselves because otherwise you'd probably get attacked or feel abandoned. And all of that was an essential survival mechanism. But that which allows us to survive difficulties as a kid often puts us in danger as an adult. And that's, I just really would want you to have that skepticism because you're going to meet some new woman and she's going to be great and she's going to be sexy and she's going to be articulate, silver-tongued devil that she might be, the succubus of syllable.
[2:13:15] And you are going to need to be skeptical. And that doesn't mean be hostile, right? But, you know, anyone can say anything. I mean, if you've worked in the entertainment business, I mean, how many people think that they have the best screenplay and the best song and the best, you know, whatever, whatever. It's like, yeah, I mean, lots of people say that, and there's nothing wrong with a little bit of self-promotion, but people at this, certainly at this age, you're not gauging people based upon potential, but what they've actually done, and that's really, really important. And your ex had all the track record for massive skepticism, all the track record for massive skepticism, and it struck me, of course, that you sympathized with the mother who was married to the narcissistic, creepy weirdo. Passport bro. And then you also sympathize with your ex who just had an abusive father of her child. And you got to be careful with this kind of stuff because a woman's strength is in her pretend weakness, right?
[2:14:11] Yeah, that's heavy, man. And again, I really, really do. What you're saying is resonating and you also walk the walk. I've heard you describe how you and your relationship have been able to have a great life with a great person. So it's possible. And I don't like it when people who aren't in those positions or giving me advice, but somebody like yourself, I'm like, yeah, man, he did it right. So I'm not, I'm not, I can't argue, you know, it's like, and you're telling me the how you're not just saying, do this. You're telling me how you're saying, find a good person, but you skepticism.
[2:14:43] Right. And listen, when I, when I first told my wife, my ambitions, I was, she was like, she had some skepticism and I'm like, yeah, good. I do too. If that's any consolation yet still, I'm going to have these ambitions. Right. So, So yeah, skepticism is important and skepticism is not hostility because you want someone in your life who welcomes skepticism, right? Because the only thing that was partially staving off your wife going crazy earlier was her saying, oh, bad thoughts are coming back, but she didn't somehow have the strength to really resist the bad thoughts. Now, again, I don't know if it's biochemical, I'm no expert, but from a philosophical standpoint, the ability to resist crazy thoughts is a muscle that has to be developed and maintained. It's a muscle that has to be developed and maintained. It atrophies. And the unfortunate thing with very attractive women, and, you know, very attractive men, I'm sure you've, you know, you're a good looking guy, so I'm sure you've had your share of this as well, is that they don't get a lot of pushback, which is why a lot of crazy women believe a lot of crazy stuff. Like a lot of hot women believe a lot of crazy stuff because men won't push back, right? You know, like that hot woman I dated who was like, yeah, I'm psychic. And it's like, no, you're not. um but that.
[2:15:54] By the way i've heard you i've heard you talk about that and it just it's so deep and it resonates because it's so it's so true the reality distortion field that is hotness like it's it's fascinating.
[2:16:05] Right but that's why the hot crazy matrix exists people think it's just somehow built in it's like well no because they we we all need reality pushbacks right and and it's a delicate operation but it's it's how we show our caring for each other is the reality pushback. And it would have been interesting to see, of course, it's an alternate history, so we don't know. And that's sort of my final thought here. But it would be interesting to see what would have happened if you'd gotten into philosophy before you remet your ex and she tried selling yourself. She tried selling you on who she was and you'd have been skeptical and pushed back. It would have been interesting to see. She might have just run away or she might have started to develop the muscle of being skeptical about her own claims and being skeptical about your own delusions, which we all have, it would be interesting to see how that might have played out going forward. Of course, we'll never know. And again, it could be entirely organic, and philosophy is not a magic shield. But I find that for myself and for those around me, skepticism keeps us sane.
[2:17:03] Amen. That's, that's, that's awesome. I agree completely.
[2:17:07] All right, brother. Is there anything else that you wanted to mention? I really, really appreciate your time today. And I, I hugely appreciate your, your openness in this, you know, very difficult situation for which I have massive sympathy for everyone. Of course, in particular, the kids.
[2:17:20] Yeah, the kids. No, I mean, really that that's it there. You know, honestly, I could, while it's like, I have your ear, I could talk to you about a gazillion things for days, but really, I just want to thank you. Cause I know you got a lot going on. You have a busy life. You're out here doing great things. So I thank you for doing what you do. Because again, I found you. And it did honestly help me. There was parts very early in this divorce where I was trying to unpack everything going on. And I found a video where you're talking about borderline personality. And you were talking about somebody getting out of a relationship. And you said something, I will never let this person get in my way between me and reality ever again. And those words, just you saying that, it just really melted into me. And I was like, okay, I cannot let anybody get between me and reality again. And that's kind of, you've kind of solidified that even in this conversation, but it's powerful stuff for sure.
[2:18:14] Well, I appreciate that. Obviously, if you get a chance, keep me posted about how it's going. And I wish you and your family the very best and great job at keeping them safe.
[2:18:23] All righty, man. Well, have a good one. And yeah, maybe I'll follow up in like six months and give you a check-in.
[2:18:28] Yeah or you can just drop a line in skype and let me know how things are going as well either way is fine with me okay perfect sounds good.
[2:18:34] Man bye all righty bye.
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