0:04 - First Call After Eight Years
1:01 - Processing Childhood Emotions
2:46 - Understanding Father-Son Dynamics
4:36 - The Weight of the Word "Father"
5:42 - Recollection of Practical Skills
8:34 - Reflection on Sports and Parenting
11:02 - The Influence of Relationships
12:43 - Navigating Teenage Years
15:23 - Moving In with Dad
18:18 - The Cost of Leaving
20:51 - The Complexities of Family
25:37 - A Pattern of Financial Control
28:26 - The Decision to Cut Contact
31:38 - The Impact of Anger
36:57 - The Desire for Closure
39:22 - Confronting Past Trauma
44:30 - The Challenge of Reconnection
48:13 - Conflicting Emotions
50:12 - The Reality of His Life
55:44 - Caretaker Neglect
58:38 - Anger and Its Sources
1:02:06 - The Illusion of Approval
1:05:34 - Seeking Relief from Anger
1:10:59 - The Impact of Fatherhood
1:13:06 - The Trophy and Its Symbolism
1:17:36 - The Fantasy of Reconciliation
1:20:04 - Sabotage and Relationships
1:24:07 - The Power of Choice
1:27:42 - The Burden of Emotional Abuse
1:29:09 - The Struggle for Control
1:48:06 - The Burden of Hope
2:16:44 - Confronting the Past
2:54:58 - The Illusion of Repair
In this episode, a caller reflects on the emotional turmoil surrounding his estranged relationship with his father, whom he hasn't spoken to in eight years. The discussion starts with the caller's contemplation of reaching out to his father, driven by a growing desire for closure regarding the neglect and emotional abuse he experienced during his childhood. The caller describes the monumental anxiety he feels at even the thought of contacting his dad, revealing the complexity of their relationship marked by verbal and emotional abuse.
Throughout their conversation, the host, Stefan, provides a compassionate yet probing perspective on the caller's feelings. He encourages the caller to unpack his emotions and the reasons he feels compelled to reconnect with his father. The caller admits that he desires to confront his father about his past behavior, particularly how he handled their relationship during childhood, including the neglect and moments of verbal aggression.
As they delve deeper into the caller's history, it becomes apparent that the dynamic with his father was one of emotional distance and dysfunctionality. The caller recalls that there was little real parental guidance from his father and a troubling legacy of anger management issues. The host underscores the idea that biological relationships do not equate to emotional parenting, pushing back against the caller’s notion that he should feel some obligation to connect with his father simply because he is his biological parent.
The conversation oscillates between the caller's hurt and frustration over his father’s past behavior, and Stefan's insights on the nature of abusive relationships, particularly highlighting the ineffectiveness of trying to derive validation from a cruel parent. At one point, Stefan even roleplays the caller's father to illustrate how such a conversation might unfold, emphasizing the father’s lack of accountability and insight into his own behavior.
As the caller begins to realize the futility of seeking a relationship with someone who has proven to be emotionally unavailable and abusive, Stefan continually brings focus to the idea of self-acceptance and the importance of moving away from the hope that things will change. The caller expresses the burden of hope as one that keeps him tethered to his father's dysfunction, stunting his emotional growth and healing. Stefan emphasizes that personal peace will come from accepting the painful truths about his father and releasing the need for closure from him.
As their conversation concludes, the caller reflects on the cathartic process facilitated by discussing these issues, expressing a desire to find resolution. Instead of pursuing a potentially damaging interaction with his father, the caller considers embracing his emotions and allowing himself to process the grief and anger associated with his father's neglect. The episode ultimately lays bare the complexities of familial relationships marred by abuse, exploring themes of acceptance, self-worth, and the necessity of breaking free from toxic connections for personal healing.
[0:00] Basically, I wanted to ring my father for the first time in eight years.
[0:05] I've now come to a realization or I've got my reasonings now to finally want to call him because I remember the first call-in show, we talked about that for a bit and whether it was a good idea or not. So I called him or I reached out to him, said, hey, I need to talk about some stuff about my childhood.
[0:23] And we messaged. And then I got his number and before I could even call him, I don't know if I just got myself worked up or what, but I just completely just dissociated from just like all of my head. Like, you've got like really bad anxiety. And the reason why, I don't know how much I remember telling you in our first call-in show, but I was like, she'd get it when I was a lot younger. and obviously i haven't heard from him in eight years so it was a bit of a big thing.
[1:02] Um and basically the reason why i want to ring you is because i'm just struggling to process and understand why i'm feeling that way and even if maybe i need like to do a role play or something just to sort of help me prepare i guess in a way to like do the call in with him because, the my biggest worry was when that happened i was like what's gonna happen if i call him and i'm just like because it was like i literally forgot why i was going to call him in the first place right like it's my i just got really like worked up and anxious and yeah it's just and i thought i'd just prompt to call you first to you know maybe see if you can help me you know like to understand what my emotions were at the time and even see if it's even worth going through with sure um if i'm feeling that way so yeah that's that's basically the gist of it so i'm.
[1:57] Very happy to help and i really do sympathize it is really one of the most terrifying things on the planet to talk to somebody who's been pretty dysfunctional and had a lot of power over you in the past so i i really do sympathize and i i hope that you uh take some comfort in the fact that that you're not alone in this and it is appalling and terrifying so i hope that you.
[2:18] Understand you understand that uh yeah i do um yeah sorry go ahead, I was just going to say, it's funny because I was sitting there thinking, it's like, how is it that I'm like less nervous talking to Stef now than I am my actual father? Like that's just, it's mind-boggling.
[2:35] Well, geez, I hope so. I hope I'm a nicer guy than that. I hope that I'm not.
[2:39] Oh, definitely.
[2:40] This guy, it was terrible. How come I'm a moral philosopher? Okay. All right. All right.
[2:46] So remind me if you can just give me the condensed version of the issues that you had with your father growing up.
[2:57] Okay so he was um temperamental uh like had a lot of anger issues um verbally abusive, physically not so much but he was extremely neglectful uh obviously i came from a split family so he split from my mom when i was very young so i was like uh like i'd have cuss i'll be in his care for about once a fortnight on the weekends uh that happened all up until i'd say i I was about 18, then I moved in with him for about eight months or so.
[3:30] I'm sorry, how old were you when your parents split up?
[3:33] I was about three, I was.
[3:36] Okay, so he really wasn't your father.
[3:41] You're telling me?
[3:42] No, he was his home donor and then an occasional Airbnb.
[3:49] That's actually a good way to put it, because that's literally what it was. It was a very dysfunctional Airbnb.
[3:54] Father, it's kind of funny, like the word father has this immense power psychologically. Right? It's like Bruce the Shaw, I never knew my father. Right? I mean, the word father, I mean, there's a reason why it's got the father and not got the second cousin's half uncle, right? So, I mean, the word father has such power. And, but the word father is not sperm donor. To take an extreme example, if we were the product of rape and some guy raped our mother and then ran off into the woods, we wouldn't say, but that's my father, right?
[4:36] Yeah.
[4:40] Father is not a biological relationship. Father is parenting. I mean, you can be a very good father, even as a stepfather, right? Especially if you arrive for whatever reason early on in the child's development. So, did your father parent you? Did he give you advice? Did he give you counsel? Did he help you avoid life's challenges? Did he give you comfort? Did he teach you emotional skills? Did he teach you business skills? Did he teach you conflict resolution skills? Did he parent you?
[5:21] I already knew the answer to that, and that's no. The only thing I could think of is I remember him trying to give me advice on women, and let's just say it did not resonate with me whatsoever because, yeah, his relationship with women was terrible. So that was about it.
[5:39] Okay.
[5:40] Is there anything that… He just gave me the bed. like.
[5:42] Sorry go ahead.
[5:43] Oh yeah i was gonna say the only thing realistically he tried to give which was like oh he tried to pair of me give me like you know life skills or whatever it's just the surface level like got to be organized got to do this you know get a job you know you got to have a realistic job not just usually copy right and all that like and it's like there was no, like having like you just said before none of that okay resonated with me whatsoever Is.
[6:11] There anything that he taught you that's not just some tying your shoes practical skill? Is there anything that he taught you when you were a child that you still find a value and utility to this day?
[6:29] Not but i would say no.
[6:31] I mean i just an example would be something that really helped me was i have this complete genius of a roommate when i was in a university it was completely by accident i got a room in a frat house that i ended up sharing with another guy i didn't even know who it was going to be and we're still friends to this day and he was a guy he ended up with two phds just a total stone genius and anyway so he was spending one semester studying optimal negotiation strategies. And he just, in passing, you know, he said, yeah, yeah, it turns out the thing that's best to do in the prisoner's dilemma and in life as a whole is you treat people the best you can the first time you meet them. And after that, you treat them as they treat you. And, you know, of course I drilled into this and understood the whole math and reasoning behind this all kind of stuff. Right. And, uh, that's for instance, I mean, that's something that your father should tell you and help you work through and so on. Right. So that's a piece of advice that I got from a friend that's, I was, oh gosh, what was I at that age? Two years here, I was like 21 or 22. And it was a huge important thing. And that's just one of sort of many examples. My wife has given me, I mean, countless principles that have been enormously helpful over the course of my life. So, so, so he didn't parent you.
[7:52] There was a couple of things that he did now that I'm remembering.
[7:56] No, no, be fair. Yeah, be fair. I mean, if there's stuff that he did, let's get the whole picture for sure.
[8:04] Yeah. Well, the only thing that I thought was just then was, well, he taught me how to, like, wash his car, I guess. And I guess he taught me all sports, you know, how to kick a ball.
[8:12] No, no, no. I excluded practical skills.
[8:18] Okay.
[8:19] Because practical skills are taught by anyone.
[8:23] Yeah that's true that's true so.
[8:26] He taught you how to wash his.
[8:27] Car that's.
[8:28] The saddest thing i've ever heard.
[8:30] Because that's.
[8:30] Beneficial to him right.
[8:31] Yeah now sports i.
[8:34] Mean was he did he take pride in your sports was he enthusiastic for you to do well in sports.
[8:40] He was a he was he was an he was a he was an athlete and like he was enthusiastic about sports like he just all i remember him sitting he was the typical dad that sits in front of the tv and watches ball sports and screams at the tv and shit and he just watched all that basically like he would just well he'd be watching a football game and his team's losing he'd be like, angry you know what i mean he was like that um that typical dad that just you know screams at the tv and watching ball sports and live vigorously through yeah Elvis with the tv shoots.
[9:15] It Elvis style uh yeah and i've always thought that's like so you're sitting there You're usually drinking, eating bad food, and getting really stressed. It just seems so bad for you as a whole, right? Anyway, okay.
[9:25] Yeah.
[9:27] Okay, but he did – so how involved did he get in your sports? I mean, if you only saw him once every two weeks.
[9:39] We would occasionally – when I'd go over, I wouldn't see him much, but he would keep it all out. So he would teach me how to kick the ball and stuff, and then he would take me to my, like, because I used to play football when I was a lot younger. He used to take me to the games. When I was on his weekend, when it wasn't his weekend, he wouldn't. Mom would take me to training and stuff, or they would, when it was his weekend, they would do the turn, like, I go in.
[10:08] Okay. So that's not much parenting. I mean, did he teach you much about training? Sorry, I think we've got a delay because you're kind of cutting in and out a little bit. can you get any close to the router or do you have bad internet or sorry.
[10:21] About that um i think i've got bad internet let me just switch my door, how's that well.
[10:31] I i don't know till we keep going um so uh.
[10:35] So
[10:36] That's not much parenting right and now how long did he help you with sports i mean there's only so much here's how to kick a ball you can do right.
[10:43] Yeah he only helped me until i stopped playing it which to be honest when i'm thinking about the whole duration it was like two three years max, in regards to actual like playing sports that's the only time you like but apart from that did he.
[11:02] Did he did he just drive you to the game or did he give you, here's how to be a good sport here's how to really focus on winning his strategies uh i mean or did he just here's how to kick a ball and i'm going to drive you to the game and then just watch you play i mean i'm trying to sort of understand the sports involvement thing.
[11:19] Yeah okay um, he would give me tips like on what to do but it wasn't enough something that i couldn't that i remember really it was more like criticism if that makes sense but then when i would get frustrated at myself she'd be like oh you know don't worry like this best player he wasn't good for years and stuff you know it doesn't he would just do stuff like that like he would be involved in regards to like he'd be like a ref or a like a boundary umpire like once in the blue moon but But apart from that, like nothing really, it was like he drove me to the game, would watch me. Well, actually, here's a funny story. Actually, the first time I scored a goal in soccer, he was at the, he would, he throw me to the game, but he didn't actually see me score cause he went off and had a phone call somewhere. So he actually missed me score my first goal in soccer.
[12:12] Oh, how old were you then?
[12:15] I was like, I remember I was like 12 years old.
[12:18] Wow. Sorry, how old?
[12:21] 12.
[12:24] Um how long were you playing before you scored a goal.
[12:29] Um that was like my first year like playing soccer like i joined up like a junior team.
[12:35] Oh i see okay sorry sorry i thought um you just taught how to kick a ball i'm thinking like four.
[12:42] No no no no.
[12:43] It's gonna be eight years till you scored a game i might take a few phone calls too until he sort of caught a goal i'm just kidding okay got it got it all right okay um and into your teenage years so you said he gave you some pretty useless advice about girls anything else.
[13:01] Um yeah just you just want to think, Like I'll be doing stuff in regards to schoolwork or I remember actually, I remember trying to write my resume when I was about to finish up on school and he was just tearing over me and he was just like I was making spelling mistakes or messing something up on the computer and he'd be like, what are you doing? Like you can do like this and just gets all like, like very agitated. And then he just starts doing it himself. And that was like the only one time that I remember he did like anything. like no but that made you feel worse and.
[13:42] Less competent right.
[13:42] Yeah exactly and his whole big thing was as well he always gone on about organization like you've got to be organized you've got to have a diary you're going to write your diary you know like do this and that and it's kind of ironic because when i look at his life it's like your life is completely like the most disorganized shit ever you know so i don't have a good example of that but he'd always go on about that and always tell me how hard he had it when he was a kid like how bad his parents were and stuff like that's just a bit of tangent but that's the only thing really I could remember of him telling me that was I wouldn't even say it was useful advice because I didn't really take that much into account didn't take that into account in my later years you know so right.
[14:31] And how old are you now?
[14:34] I'm 27.
[14:36] 27. Okay. And what happened with your father? You said you moved in with him for eight months when you were 18, if I remember rightly. And what else has happened with your father in, I guess, been almost 10 years since, right?
[14:49] Um so yeah i moved in with him um after i had a full end um and just to finish off at school said my grandparents for about six months and i was still visiting my dad like on the weekends and seeing him and he brought up the idea come in moving with me you know i'll you know i'll, basically say i was like i'll help you you know start your life and you know get you going and And I was like, all right, we'll do this, right? So mum wasn't opposed to the idea, but she's a whole different other story.
[15:23] Yeah, so I stayed with him for about eight months. And for the first couple months, it was good. He said, you can do whatever you want, feel free. They built a room out the back of the house for me to go stay in. So I have my own privacy and all that. and it was good but then when it started I started like seeing him a lot more and see what he was like inside the house that's when a lot of stuff changed I started seeing how he was in his relationship with his partner and even how he treated the other kids in the house, I saw his partner his partner.
[16:00] What does that mean?
[16:01] Yeah, he had his partner at the time so he remarried, he's remarried twice so at this time this was his second member Second marriage. He didn't marry my mum the first, when they got together. Yeah, so his wife.
[16:15] Yeah, just you referred to her as his partner, and I wasn't sure what that meant.
[16:19] Oh, sorry, sorry about that. I usually, yeah.
[16:22] That's fine.
[16:23] Yes. So he's obviously living with his wife, his new wife at the time, and obviously she had some kids as well, and then they had a kid together.
[16:34] Oh, so he married a single mum? Sorry, he married a single mum?
[16:37] Yeah. married a single mom yeah and they had a kid together and then and then i started seeing um, glimpses of him like when the kid was obviously like one or two started hearing him like shout at the kid because obviously the kid was crying and then i would just sorry was that his kid.
[16:56] Or the single mom's kid.
[16:57] No his kid okay yeah he wouldn't yell at the which is funny he never really yelled at the other kids like the single mom kids but uh yeah he would uh do that and then, When I started getting a job, it was about like five months in, I think. Then he started asking for like board money, which was like, all right, fair. But then for some reason, he started charging me quite a lot for rent, for like a small room. And to put it into context, I pay like 200 bucks a week for a full house and like a granny flat where I do like my music stuff. And I live with like two other people, right? he was charging me 200 bucks a week to live in this like small little room at the back of his house sorry.
[17:49] Uh did he pay much child support when you were growing up.
[17:52] Um that's what that's the thing is there was always uh with him and my mom that he said she said like oh mom be like oh he never paid me much child support and they'll be like i paid all the child support and all that so So from what I understand, yes, he did pay child support, depending on how much of that he paid. Not too sure, but yeah, he did, if that answers the question.
[18:18] Okay, so how old were you when he started charging you the $200 a week?
[18:23] I was, I just turned, I just turned 19.
[18:30] Okay. Was he low on money?
[18:36] Um, no, he, him and his wife, they had a stable jobs. Um, he, he was a manager, so he was earning quite a bit and his wife was a manager too. So like, it's not like they were low on cash and.
[18:51] Well, did his wife, sorry, did his wife not like you?
[18:57] Um, probably not now because of the aftermath, but in the beginning, um, i don't know that's the question i thought yeah sure no.
[19:11] Because that that money is designed to drive you out so who wanted you out.
[19:16] That's true.
[19:24] So my guess would be that she wanted you out and so she's telling your dad to you gotta charge rent and that's going to encourage you to move out I could be wrong but that would be my guess.
[19:36] Yeah I'm just trying to because my interactions with her were always like we're good we got along she was definitely way more in the beginning chill like very filled out than the last, wife that he had I was fucking scared of her so we get along for a bit but second, Second wife, sorry.
[20:04] Sorry, which wife were you scared of?
[20:10] The one before the one he's with now.
[20:14] Okay, but was this the one that we're talking about or another one?
[20:19] Another one, sorry, another one.
[20:22] Okay, so you weren't scared of this one, but you were scared of the one who came later.
[20:26] Yeah. No, no, no, sorry. I'm really, really sorry. I'm getting a bit, I'm a bit like...
[20:32] No, I'm sorry, I don't have my whiteboard here to diagram these things, so just be patient as I try to keep up.
[20:40] Yeah, that's okay. So, his second wife I wasn't scared of, but his first wife I was. That makes sense.
[20:50] His first wife?
[20:52] His second wife. Yeah, his first wife I was terrified of, his second one I wasn't.
[21:00] But which was your mother?
[21:02] Out my mother was um his first relationship first partner like they didn't get married at all.
[21:10] Okay i don't know that i'm sorry what the hell would you have to do with his first wife if your mother was his third wife okay so he didn't get married to your mother he didn't get married to your mother and then he dated uh he got married to a woman who was scary but but then he got married to another woman and that's the woman you were living with.
[21:32] Yes that's correct.
[21:35] Got it okay got it got it okay so how long did you live with them when you were sort of 18 19 uh.
[21:45] I lived for about eight months eight months in total.
[21:53] Okay did he give you i mean was he parenting at all at this point i mean you're still at that at 18 you're still seven years away from brain maturity so you still need parenting right.
[22:03] Of course um no he wasn't really parenting at all he just sort of let me do my own thing, just pay your board and that's it the only time you would ever try and parent me it's like oh you need a career you need to go do this and stuff so i was like okay there was nothing else after that because he was so let's just say he was just so infatuated and just put all his time an attention into his wife.
[22:31] Okay all right so um just roughly how did things go between sort of 19 and 27 now.
[22:43] Uh, so in this time, obviously when I was 19, I cut contact with him. I didn't, um, I moved out. I moved back into mom's house and then with me, my mom had a falling out.
[22:56] Sorry. Why did you move back into your mom's house?
[23:02] Because basically I said to dad, I don't want to be here no more because.
[23:05] No, no, I understand that.
[23:07] Yeah, I understand that.
[23:09] Why didn't you, why didn't you move out on your own?
[23:12] Um, to be completely honest, I didn't prepare for that. It was, uh, like I didn't look for a house on my own or anything. I just was there. And no, that doesn't answer me anything.
[23:31] Okay. If somebody had said, I'll pay you a million dollars to move out, would you have been able to do it?
[23:39] Yeah. I would say that. so.
[23:41] You knew that there were places to rent i'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't have i don't know but i'm just curious why what the decision was if you fled your mom to go live with your dad why would you go back to live with your mom if if things got so bad that you had to move out why wouldn't you go live on your own i'm just curious.
[23:58] Because, because at this time me and mom like this is before i knew anything that was going on like um with our relationship and the psychology of all these things like i know now but at the time we thought we we mended our relationship and we were on like good terms and we started speaking again and i started expressing to her like hey like i'm not really liking being at my mom my dad's house so i don't know what to do and she was like well if you ever need to come back you can always come back you know even in that whole time that was at dad's she would try to make me like in a way maybe come back to her place so i just knew there was like an option there and i just went with that because i had no choice at that time because of how everything happened to happen like so abrupt sorry what do you mean you.
[25:00] Had no choice i'm trying to follow that you had a job right.
[25:03] Yeah i had a job and i actually did have a savings so so.
[25:08] What do you mean when you say you had no choice.
[25:12] Because it was either I stay there and deal with his abuse, or I at least go back to moms where we're sort of on better terms and then I can just, you know, get my life together.
[25:30] Well, I understand these two options. What do you mean when you say you had no choice? You could have moved somewhere. You could have moved anywhere, got roommates. You could have gone traveling.
[25:37] I guess not if you needed a job or whatever, right? but i mean what do you mean when you say you had no choice i'm just trying to follow that i mean your savings you had a job you could have moved anywhere.
[25:48] Yeah that is true that is true i think at the time i be honest with you i didn't think of that in the moment i was.
[25:58] Just like hang on hang on it's not a moment and again i'm not criticizing your decision it may have been totally the right thing to move back in with your mom, but it troubles me that you think you didn't have a choice.
[26:12] Yeah.
[26:14] I mean, you knew that people moved out. I'm sure you had some friends who moved out.
[26:21] Yeah. Oh, hang on. Sorry. I just remembered there was actually a place I could have gone to and I actually asked if I can go move in. Um, oh that guy i'm sorry all these memories are flooding no that's fine again this is that this is not it's.
[26:41] Not a critical point of mine i'm just i just want to make sure i understand your mindset back then.
[26:45] Yeah yeah that's all good that's all good um okay so what happened was there was this friends that i was staying with and this was what's the back end of me finally deciding to wanting to leave dad's house i asked him if i can go stay and move in with this guy this mate that i had at the time and he was living on his own apartment yeah he was living in his own okay his own place he was like yeah it should be it should be fine and then i spoke to dad about it and i brought up the idea and he was fully against it like straight away he was just like oh the drugs in this house uh this and that like you know what i mean like you're not going to go there like it's not a good idea you better off sorry there are drugs there are.
[27:31] Sorry you you i don't know what there are drugs in this house what is it what is does he was your friend.
[27:37] A drug user he uh he was at the time yes he was and i will admit this was at the time i was getting into drugs but it wasn't and well i don't think it was the reason why i wanted to move in there it was more just wanted to get the fuck out of my dad's house but yeah but if you're getting.
[27:52] Into drugs and your friend is a drug user was he a drug addict like did he use consistently Absolutely.
[28:00] Um, he did. Yeah, he's, yeah, he did. He was using pot.
[28:06] Okay. I mean, so you can understand that your dad might not be super keen on that, right?
[28:12] Oh, of course. And justifiably. Well, not that justifiably.
[28:18] Because if he doesn't want you to move in with a drug addict, he could just cut your rent.
[28:24] Yeah. Exactly.
[28:27] Okay so so so you knew that you could move out right yeah and of course you could have just looked on the internet and found roommate situations or got a room of your own in some place or you know a small bachelor apartment or whatever and so you decided to go back and move with your parents with your mother sorry i just don't want you to think you didn't have a choice because you did yeah okay so what's going on with your dad uh in the i'm sorry and you also said you wanted to move away from your dad's abuse now you'd mentioned him yelling at your step sibling the baby um was was was that abuse that was it abuse that you saw or was he inflicting the abuse also on you.
[29:18] It was the abuse, it was both, because he started doing little bits for me, but it was more out of his, it was more out of anger. Like there'd be certain things that I wouldn't do right around the house and he would just, he pissed off at me.
[29:35] Oh, like the resume and the spelling, stuff like that, okay.
[29:38] Yeah, stuff like that.
[29:40] Okay, so what's happened since with regards to your father? you said you didn't talk to him for a while is that right.
[29:48] Yeah eight years in total so in that time i think it was about six months after i moved out i would get random phone calls or text messages from his wife basically saying like hey how about you come back and speak to your dad you know like you.
[30:09] Hang on hang on sorry so did you did you say to your dad you know i'm not talking to you again or did you just go back to your mother's place and not be in contact with him or i just went back to him or or hang on or i just went or answer his calls or what.
[30:23] I just went back to mom's and just i didn't answer any of these calls.
[30:31] So but he didn't he didn't know what was wrong based upon anything you told him is that right.
[30:41] Sorry can you say that again.
[30:42] So you didn't tell him that anything was wrong with your relationship, i mean he should have known as your father but you didn't explicitly tell him dad i'm really pissed off at you you're charging me rent you're yelling at me you're yelling at your baby and i'm really unhappy so i'm not going to talk to you for a while uh he didn't he didn't you didn't have a conversation with him about the issues that you had in the relationship Is that right?
[31:09] Um, no, because I did say to him, like, I'm unhappy being here. I want to go back to mom's. I don't like the way you shout and scream.
[31:22] Oh, so you did tell him.
[31:25] I did tell him and I told him, it's like, I'm just, I'm not happy here. I don't want to be here no more.
[31:29] Like, yeah. Okay. So he knew what the issue is. Okay. That's good. I'm glad you did that for whatever that was worth. Okay.
[31:37] Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.
[31:39] Okay, so then his wife... Sorry, go ahead.
[31:43] I was going to say, and to add on from that, when I told him that I'm going to move out, because he basically sat me down because I... What was that? So there was an event that happened that sort of led to me going, like, let's see, I'm done. And we sat down about the night after, and he sat in my room saying, like, oh like you're a fucking idiot for like wanting for what you did um the night before um.
[32:14] Sorry you're a fucking idiot because of what because of what you said to him the night before or something else.
[32:19] No because so i'll tell you this to what happened so um this i told a bit about this in the first call and show um that we did so there was this girl that i was um I'm like friends with that I worked with and we wanted to, I was asked her to come out with me for a night out with a couple of my friends in that. Cause like we all hanged out and she said she would come and she, On the day before, well, the day or two before, I said to my parents, I said to my dad and his wife that, like, me and her, we're going to, you know, go out in the city and stuff. She said she's going to come. And then I remember the look my dad gave to his wife. He just looked straight at his wife and was like, oh, no, that's not a good idea. And then the wife basically sat there and said, she doesn't want to hang out with you. She wants to hang out, you know, with older people and stuff. You know, she doesn't want to hang out with a kid. basically saying like she doesn't want nothing to do with me um she was only like i've been like a few years older than me at the time anyways so anyways the night goes on i go out in the city with my mates and like she didn't end up turning up and you know she basically ghosted me and all that and at this time this is when i was getting into girls and stuff i felt rejected.
[33:41] And I actually saw her in the city with another guy and she was with my dad's wife and my dad, because my wife, oh my God, sorry, can you see me sick? I'm just fogging out really bad.
[34:11] Yeah, no problem. Whenever you're ready.
[34:14] Yeah.
[34:19] So the girl that was going to come out with me, she worked with my dad's wife. And so they had like a work dinner thing and I saw her and I... got emotional and started to you know have a mental breakdown because i was trying to call her because something happened in the city and i got left all by myself and i went i knew they were there so i went to go see them and be like hey like can i see you guys and i was trying to call her but i saw her talking to a guy and that caused me to flip out basically so then my parents had to come out and calm me down she had to come out and calm me down and that's when i actually told, my dad and his wife that i wanted to leave the house i wanted to go back home.
[35:12] And eventually like they were able to calm me down because i was flipping out like i was just an emotional wreck and then they put me in a taxi and sent me back to the hotel that i was staying up in the city and i stayed there i stayed with my mates and then the next day my mom picked me up, and took me back to her place. And that's when I was like, I want to come back. And she was like, oh, you can come back here. So I said, okay, cool. So the next day I go back to dad's house and I say, yeah, I want to leave. And then he was saying, oh, you were an idiot for acting out the way you did. I've done everything for you and I don't have nothing to prove.
[35:52] What is he talking about? I've done everything for you.
[35:55] I know. and it was just like okay hey i saw you i.
[35:59] Saw you like once every two weeks and drove to your games and took phone calls i've done every okay go on.
[36:03] Yeah but yeah and what was so funny what he said next is like i don't need to prove myself as a man like oh god and then he was like all right so you're gonna leave i was like yeah i'm gonna leave and he was like and he storms out all pissed off and that and i'm hearing him smash something outside it sounded like he was trying to smash a, photo in a frame or some shit it was bizarre.
[36:32] Okay, so that's why you didn't talk to him. And did you say for eight years earlier?
[36:39] Sorry?
[36:40] Sorry, you said you didn't talk to him. Did you say you didn't talk to him for eight years?
[36:46] Yeah, I didn't talk to him for eight years. And, oh, sorry, I'll just add one more little bit to the story.
[36:52] No, no, it's your story. All details are welcome, so take your time.
[36:57] Okay. So before I leave, he goes to me, oh, you're going to give me $400 before you can get your stuff back because I've got bills to pay. So I had to go to the bank, get $400 out, and give it to him so I can get all my shit back.
[37:14] Wow.
[37:14] But apparently, here's the funny thing. When he was charging me board, he was like, we don't need the money. We're just trying to teach you about skills and life and how to pay your way and shit. And I was just like, okay. yeah because nothing says like teaching me about stuff in life and my own dad written me off well.
[37:32] Holding your stuff hostage until you pay him off that's yeah okay.
[37:39] Yeah and then when i finally got all my stuff back i said to him like oh yeah because i had some stuff of his like i had a couple cds that he let me borrow to listen to because i was getting into my music at the time. I was like, oh, I'll go home and I'll go and grab him and I'll give him back to you when I'm afraid. And then I didn't even do that. And after that, that was it. I just didn't speak to him again.
[38:02] Okay. And so his wife was calling you six months in saying talk to your dad. You ignored her. So then what prompted you to want to talk to your dad now eight years later?
[38:17] Well, obviously, like I said in the beginning, i i've got my reason of to now wanting to call him and also, it's something that's i basically want closure in regards to uh i want to confront him on that stuff because i never really got to sorry.
[38:40] On what stuff.
[38:41] In my opinion like on the abuse that i cocked and all the shit that I went through as a kid and how he was the way he was and what I dealt with as a child and all the abuse. I never got to express to him that I'm pissed off at him because I never got to be showing that I'm angry at him, and it always bothered me and up until now and what I've drawn comparisons in my life is that, I've noticed that I have an issue with conflict. Like I'm very conflict avoidant.
[39:22] And a lot of that comes down to recourse because of him. Like I was here to confront him because of how he was.
[39:32] Sure. He's a bully.
[39:35] And yeah. And for me, like every time that I would sit there and think about it, or every time I would bring him up to someone, I would just get this, like really big feeling of just anger when i talk about him even when i listen to your calling shows and uh yeah people talk about like how they're going to confront their parents and their father and stuff like that i start thinking about my dad and it just makes me mad and it makes me want to just go you know what i'm gonna fucking call him and just like tell him like hey like you, you're a fuckhead to me as a kid like you really you did some damage here, and I've never gotten over that because with mum I've I've already had that call with her I don't know if you remember me telling you but she basically hung up on me after I brought her up on playing physical and verbal abuse, so with her I was at peace with, I don't have to talk to her again because, what's done is done but with him I never got to do that and I feel like Me calling him and me getting over that hurdle at least then, you know...
[40:48] Like I can be at peace with because one, one thing you've said in your recent calling shows that I've been listening to is the quote that soaks in my head is like thou shall not bear false witness. And that resonates with me so much in regards to my relationship with him.
[41:09] And I want to bring the truth forward to him and let him know like, hey, no, like, you were fucked to deal with and you extremely neglected me and you have seriously, like, made my life ten times more difficult because you just couldn't be a fucking parent to me. And not just to me, to the other kids as well.
[41:37] And another reason as well is because I've been reflecting on my relationships, in my dating life and even thinking about his relationships and trying to see, okay, where's like the similarities are, and there's a lot of questions I want to ask him about, why he chose my mum to be with my mum, frankly, and like, what was the story there because I need to know so I don't end up picking the same sort of woman, like I need to know where you fucked up and what was your reasoning behind her, because I don't want to pull my kids through that kind of shit. No way in hell that's going to happen. And yeah, so just reflecting on his relationships with women, that's one of the reasons why I want to ring him is because it's like I need to know what made you decide.
[42:37] Hang on, hang on, hang on. So why would he tell you the truth even if he knew it? i mean he's a cruel guy right yeah so what happens when you approach cruel people with a big need.
[43:02] They they don't give it to you.
[43:04] Yeah they use it to have power over you, yeah so do you think let me ask you this do you think your father has introspected and thought deeply about why he's been drawn to dysfunctional women do you think he's really thought about that and has an answer, no so do you think if you ask him he will somehow get an answer in the moment.
[43:36] I feel like if I ask him and his reaction tell me in reality what I need to know, if that makes sense.
[43:49] No, it won't tell you. If you ask him, why did you marry, mom, and he doesn't know, he will probably tell you something that will be as hurtful and damaging as possible. Because it's cruel, right? Has your father himself tried to contact you over eight years?
[44:13] No.
[44:14] Right. I mean, this is an unusual situation for me because normally the people I'm talking to have dysfunctional parents or abusive parents or abusive relationships in their lives as a whole.
[44:30] Like in the present, not I haven't talked to him for eight years, but I want to call him up and yell at him. Now, I don't know whether that's the right or wrong thing to do. I don't know. I don't know. But I have some concerns that you're putting yourself under the thumb of somebody who's cruel again. Maybe that's part of your hesitation to do it.
[45:04] Yeah, that definitely does explain a bit of that.
[45:07] Because you certainly will be, you'll be inviting him back into your life and you will be saying to him, it's been eight years, I'm still really thinking about you and I still have great needs for things from you.
[45:24] Right.
[45:25] How does your father handle power over a baby?
[45:32] Screams.
[45:33] Yeah, screams at the baby.
[45:35] Yes.
[45:35] How's he going to handle power over you?
[45:40] Do the exact same thing?
[45:42] Well, I don't know, but I have concern. And some of the... Or at least when you feel like... I just want to sort of have you think of that, because we always go into these things thinking we have the upper hand, so to speak, that we can yell at them. But the other person is, who's more experienced in anger, you or your dad?
[46:13] Yeah.
[46:15] Who's more experienced in abusing power, you or your dad? yeah i just i don't want you to be the young gun going up against the experienced gunslinger and getting your ass shot off that's all yeah.
[46:31] No that's that's completely reasonable i agree.
[46:36] I'll give you i'll give you an analogy and it's not a great analogy but hopefully it'll take some of the personal stuff out of it so if you have a friend uh a mate who is your age he's 27, and he says you know there's this girl i dated as a teenager she was really a total bitch to me, and we broke up eight years ago and i just want to march up to her house and and and yell at her about what a bitch she was what would you say yeah.
[47:13] I'd be like that's that's stupid why would you do that that's my point.
[47:18] Closure in.
[47:19] Eight years, pleasure.
[47:27] I mean i never got a chance to tell her what an absolute bitch she was to me so i want to go up and yell at her about what a bitch she was eight years after we broke up, yeah well that's actually going to give his girlfriend some satisfaction because if she's a real bitch then she's going to be happy that he's been kind of half tortured for eight years.
[47:54] Yeah oh shit.
[47:58] So don't always assume that your hesitation to do things is negative, or bad or wrong or cowardly, right?
[48:13] That was sort of what I was thinking in my head. It's like, maybe this is telling me something. And I was just like, I took a step back for a sec. I was like, all right, let's just weigh up what we can do now. Because I've got his number and stuff. It's like, how about this? We'll just call Stef first and just go from there, basically.
[48:31] Yeah. And again, I don't know whether it's the right or wrong thing to do. And I'm happy to do a role play so we can sort of explore that. But I know for a simple fact, he hasn't changed.
[48:41] Oh, yeah. I know for a fact he hasn't.
[48:45] And how do you know?
[48:47] Because, well, especially just based off, like, everything I've learned from, like, listening to you. And as well, when I sent him the message, he messaged back. He basically said, like, oh, it's so good to hear from you. I've heard your music. I like it. I'm so proud of you. Bear in mind, this is the same guy that told me it was never going to happen. and it was just a hobby and never supported it whatsoever. So I was like, okay. That right there, I was just like, hmm. But what was so funny about that was when he messaged that, it was like all my anger and resentment towards him, it just got completely shut off when he messaged back. It was almost like he just put me under the power of being dissociated and not angry because that was obviously as a kid, like i could never express that.
[49:43] Sorry sorry just remind me how long ago it was you messaged him.
[49:48] I messaged him like two days ago.
[49:49] Right so if he's heard your music and he's really proud of you why wouldn't he contact you.
[49:58] That's the thing he never did so that's where i call on his behalf and.
[50:04] Have you uh done any uh what do they call it cyber stalking i mean have you is he in a new relationship is he uh do you know anything about what his life is at the moment.
[50:13] Um i know he's got a job as a property manager at some school um what was interesting was he actually popped up on my suggested uh friends feed and that's what sort of kind of well sparkled this thing i was just like what are you doing like talking my stuff like just leave me alone like i get family members doing that all the time because i completely did food from them but when i saw that i was like, what do you want like just oh.
[50:46] So you think he.
[50:46] Showed up because he's.
[50:47] Been looking at your profile.
[50:50] Yeah okay that's i mean i don't know how technology works like that but from what i know that's what the algorithm does yeah.
[50:58] I don't know um okay so you don't know much about what's going on in his life and you have a belief, tell me about this process called closure i mean obviously i know what the word means and i kind of know how people use it but i don't know how you're using it specifically so what is your ideal, scenario like the best possible outcome out of having uh would it be a face-to-face like you meet him somewhere.
[51:33] Um ideally yeah but we're in different states um but i'd just say phone call because at least then I'm a lot safer.
[51:45] Okay. So what's the ideal outcome of the phone call? You'd hang up and it'd be like, oh, that couldn't have gone better. What is your goal, your ideal?
[52:00] I just want him to hear how fucking angry I am at him, like how much he really fucked me off. and the amount of fucking pain that he put me through.
[52:17] And sorry, tell me about, sorry to interrupt. So just help me, and we'll do this just because I need to know what the pain is. It sounds like it was a lot of neglect when you were younger. And listen, neglect is terrible. So I'm not saying that's not painful. But what are the major aspects of the neglect that you would tell him about?
[52:42] That he basically just was not there. He just, he put me, he would go to work on the weekends that I'd be down with him and he put me in the care of these fucking psychotic women. And in the whole time when he broke up with his first wife, he didn't even bother to try and reconcile or like have a relationship with not just me, but my younger half brother. He just went straight into another relationship and got married. And the fact that when I'd be having disputes with my mum, which he'd be enabling, by the way, and I would confront my mum about certain things with him there, he just wouldn't say nothing. He wouldn't do anything to back me up. He just was not supportive of me at all, just didn't think of me whatsoever. However, I was always the one that had to suffer.
[53:50] So tell me about the, you said, the psychotic women that your father would leave you under the care of. What's that?
[54:04] His first wife was just extremely verbally confused. abusive, and narcissistic. And every time, I remember there'd be times where I'd be like, I don't want to play with my brother because, to be fair, my brother, every time we played together, was an arsehole and I didn't like him because he would just do his shit, like he'd pick on me or beat me up and stuff. I don't want to play with him. And I'll say that to her and she'll be like, oh, we can go back to your mom saying that, like just do shit like that.
[54:52] And we'd always, here's a funny thing, they would always, every time I brought clothes down, he would give those to wear for the weekend. She would make, he would give them to my brother to wear. And it's like, those are my clothes, like for the weekend. So I've got spare clothes and he would just give them off to him. which is not like a big, big deal, but like every time like I'd retaliate towards my brother, he would be like, if you do that again, I'm going to be mad. I'm going to tell your mom and send you back home and do shit like that.
[55:45] And she would constantly be fighting with my dad as well, and, she was just a real bitch I'm sorry.
[56:06] Oh, no, no, that's, listen, I'm not disagreeing with anyone. I just wanted to make sure I understood that. Okay, so you tell him all the stuff that, you know, I'm 100% with you that you are upset about, right?
[56:21] Hmm.
[56:22] And... Then what? What's the ideal? How does he respond, ideally?
[56:36] The ideal response is he just sits there and shuts the fuck off and just listens to me fucking just air out my grievance.
[56:46] Okay. And then?
[56:50] After all the time.
[56:54] Okay, so he listens, right?
[56:55] He listens and.
[56:56] And you get.
[56:57] To uh.
[56:58] You get to vent which you know again i completely sympathize with and it sounds like you have completely legitimate grievances so okay so he listens and then what.
[57:12] And then i basically be like that's it i'm i'm i'm done like i just wanted to ring you to tell you that because it's been on my mic for years and that's it I'm done you're not going to see my grandkids no you're not going to see your grandkids, cut off, like or no I'll at least ask him sorry I'll at least ask him, you know why were you this way like why were you verbally and physically abusive why did you neglect me and why did you choose the women that you chose and I just want to know Okay.
[57:52] So I'm not sure I believe you on that I'm not saying you're a liar, of course, right? Yeah Because you're asking him Do you think that he knows Why he chose the women that he chose And do you think he knows Why he abused children?
[58:16] I don't think he does.
[58:21] So I get the anger and I'm not disagreeing with the anger at all. And again, you have my massive and deep sympathy as always, but what is behind that question? Why did you choose these women? Why did you abuse children? What is it that you're trying to get from him or to get him to do or to feel through those questions?
[58:39] Because I don't think you're looking for a sort of factual answer, if that makes sense. Because I don't, I mean, A, I don't think there is one. And B, if he's cruel to children, he's not going to tell you anything that's going to give you any relief, because he's cruel.
[58:54] Yeah. Um...
[59:04] I think you want to say you abused children and you chose horrible women.
[59:12] Yeah.
[59:12] The why is, you know, it's sort of equivalent to a parent saying, well, why did you break that lamp? When there really is just, I'm angry that you broke that lamp. But the question is kind of rhetorical, if that makes sense.
[59:26] Yeah, that's true.
[59:27] Why did you get an F? Why did you fail this test? Why didn't you come home one time? It's like there's no answer, if that makes sense. it's not a question that's designed to to have an answer it's just a question that's designed to express outrage yeah that's true because he's not he's not gonna i mean do you think he's got a big thesis as to why he did all these things.
[59:48] Wow i i.
[59:51] Mean if he knew why he was doing these things uh he wouldn't uh he wouldn't have done them it's you know it's like the police yelling at someone like why are you a bank robber, yeah it's like I don't know it's where the money is right yeah so okay so I would say that that's not a question that's going to get you much satisfaction.
[1:00:15] Okay, this is basically, like you cherish horrible women and you're abusive to children and I fucking hate you.
[1:00:33] Right, okay. So you get all of that out, and then what?
[1:00:47] I don't even know.
[1:00:49] But you must have an ideal, right?
[1:00:56] That, I walk away, That he apologizes, even though it's not going to happen. Sorry, or he's not sorry, or he just takes it, and then I just feel like, that's it, it's done. And then I'll speak to you again.
[1:01:26] But he's going to say something, right?
[1:01:29] Yeah.
[1:01:33] So, what does he say? So, if he apologizes, what do you think that would mean?
[1:01:42] It just means I feel bad so I need to say sorry to master the fact that I'm, not really sorry but you make me feel bad and it's like fuck you basically right.
[1:01:56] Okay so it seems unlikely that you're going to get any satisfaction if that makes sense.
[1:02:06] Hmm, yeah that, so yeah that does make sense yeah what.
[1:02:25] Would be satisfying, I mean you said that you got satisfaction with your mother because she hung up on you, right yeah so if you would like that from your father then your ideal would be you start yelling at him and he hangs up on you.
[1:02:56] Ideally yes but at the same time I know that obviously yelling and abusing is not gonna look good on my behalf but it's more the aspect of like hey like, No.
[1:03:10] I have no problem with you. For what it's worth, I have no problem with you yelling at him.
[1:03:16] Okay.
[1:03:16] I'm just trying to figure out what your goal is. How will you know if you've achieved what you want?
[1:03:30] If he hung things up on me, longs away.
[1:03:36] Well, he's already hung up on you for eight years, right?
[1:03:43] Right.
[1:03:45] So he's already hung up on you because he's even listened to your music, right?
[1:03:51] Yeah.
[1:03:52] And doesn't, didn't call you. So he's already hung up on you as far as ignoring you goes, right?
[1:03:59] Yeah.
[1:04:02] So what else could it be?
[1:04:20] I think that I just got it out and then I see I don't have to think about it.
[1:04:37] Well, what are you thinking about? What is it that you are thinking about? And again, I'm not saying you should or shouldn't think about it. I don't know, right? But what is it that you are thinking about at the moment that you would get relief from?
[1:04:53] That I finally stood up to him.
[1:04:59] Well, I mean, arguably you stood up for him by getting him out of your life and not talking to him for eight years.
[1:05:08] That is true. Can I just ask you something?
[1:05:13] Of course, yeah, yeah. And again, I'd say this with all humility. I just want to double check. I'm like the investor. you say well i want to invest in in talking to my dad i'm like okay well what's the return on investment what's your profit yeah right so sorry you're gonna ask me something.
[1:05:30] No you're good i really appreciate you no.
[1:05:33] No sorry yeah go ahead.
[1:05:35] Yeah um so not being certain And with this feeling that I have of like anger towards him, what do I do to kind of, I guess, deal with it or let it out so it's just not healed there? like is there.
[1:06:03] Right yeah so you said you want peace right you want yeah you said you want peace yeah and you want relief from this right right, so that's a question and and your hope of course is that if you talk to him that you will get that kind of relief right.
[1:06:23] Yeah, that's that's what I'm aiming for.
[1:06:28] Right okay So, relief from what?
[1:06:40] Just the pain that he put me through and the anger that I have towards him.
[1:06:49] Okay. So the anger towards him is based on what? So all anger has the desire for self-protection.
[1:07:00] Right?
[1:07:00] So it's fight or flight, right? So if some guy attacks you in an alley, you're angry that he attacked you in the alley. So you fight him. And then so what harm is your father doing to you that you need this kind of protection from? Because, you know, I mean, you haven't talked to the guy for eight years, right? And you've become a success in your chosen field for which massive congratulations. this is the jim morrison story right like jim morrison's dad was like an admiral in the navy who said his father his son sounded like a wounded cow and was never going to make it in music and it was only after jim morrison was dead that the dad was like you know he really did have something i didn't see it good job yeah dad yeah right thanks thanks yeah yeah uh although of course if he'd had a better relationship with his father jim morrison might not have made it at all and neither might you have i mean if i'd had a better relationship with my mother if i'd had a better relationship with my mother and father do you think i'd be a philosopher i don't think so, so it's a half and half sometimes um yeah okay so, He's not posing any immediate threat to you that I'm aware of, unless there's something that I have missed or don't know about, if that makes sense.
[1:08:30] No, he's not posing a threat to me at all, basically.
[1:08:33] Okay.
[1:08:34] I'm far away from what it's possible to be.
[1:08:35] Right. So the anger is what? And please understand, again, I hate to over-explain. I'm not saying your anger is illegitimate. I'm just trying to figure out its source, if that makes sense. so the anger is, so there's a kind of anger that comes from hope, so if a guy has a girlfriend or a wife who cheats on him all the time then he's going to get really angry because he's going to hope she's not cheating on him. And then every time it turns out she is cheating on him, he gets really angry. If, on the other hand, he sort of says, look, she's just a cheater. She's addicted to cheating. She's a cheating addict. Then he will not have hope. And because he doesn't have hope, he will lose a good chunk of the anger, if that makes sense.
[1:09:45] Yeah.
[1:09:46] Now, again, I don't know if this is the case or not with your father, but do you have any hope that he might improve his behavior or change in some manner going forward? Do you have hope?
[1:10:03] You know what's funny? I do.
[1:10:05] I know. That's why I'm thinking. That's why I'm asking this. I think you do have hope.
[1:10:09] Yeah.
[1:10:09] Okay. So the fantasy scenario, like let's just go real crazy, like this fantasy, fantasy, fantasy, right? So the fantasy scenario is what?
[1:10:22] That you reconcile and have a fucking relationship.
[1:10:27] Right right so the anger is your frustration at not getting something that you believe is possible, if that makes sense yeah no no this is this is i mean if you didn't feel for this you wouldn't be human so i i get sympathize and um empathize with the with the pain, because you want to have a better relationship right.
[1:10:57] That's all i fucking wanted.
[1:10:59] Of course yeah of course of course, now sorry no no you go ahead it's your call man.
[1:11:18] No he just chose every he just chose everything else but that he just he chose women he chose he just forgot about me.
[1:11:28] He chose his own anger and temper yeah I mean what's funny is the guy who's completely screwed up his life with women got angry at you eight years ago because you got upset about a woman.
[1:11:42] Yeah. How ironic.
[1:11:44] It is ironic, right?
[1:11:46] It's fucking ironic.
[1:11:47] How dare you let a woman control your life and your heart? That's my job. I'm sorry, don't be able to laugh, but you know what I mean.
[1:11:53] No, it's good. I need that. Yeah. Yeah, I just... That's all I ever wanted, Stef, like deep down inside, and I always thought about that, And it's probably why I have this fixation with like still, you know, watching ball sports and that and all this shit is because I'm just, that was the only thing that reminded me of him. And a part of me just wants to let go of that because I know it's just, it's not productive and it's, you know, in some ways dysfunctional.
[1:12:25] Let go of what? Do you mean the ball sports or the things that are thoughts about you?
[1:12:30] Yeah, watching. Yeah, like that. And obviously watching stuff like that and basically doing certain stuff like that, that my dad used to do.
[1:12:39] Right.
[1:12:40] In a way to sort of keep the fantasy alive that we have a bond, even though we don't.
[1:12:47] Well, it's the bond you had, too.
[1:12:52] It was the only thing I remember in love. You know, it's funny, when I saw his profile photo, it says a lot about him. He's there, he's seeing a fucking ball sports trophy, and I just thought, how funny.
[1:13:07] Like, none of your kids are in that, you know, but you care about a fucking trophy more than your kids.
[1:13:13] Sorry, he had, sorry, where was the ball sports trophy in his profile?
[1:13:19] Yeah, there's a photo of him holding up a trophy of his favorite team winning the trophy, if that makes sense. and he's there and he's all sports colors and he's kissing it and i just saw that and i was just like.
[1:13:34] That's gross yeah no i get that.
[1:13:35] Yes it's like you know that just says a lot about you like you care more about that than your own fucking kids like fucking pathetic.
[1:13:43] It is it is i agree so, the dream let's talk about the dream the dream that you have of a good relationship with your father, okay, has he had a good relationship with anyone well what about your siblings.
[1:14:17] No my half brother doesn't even talk to him either.
[1:14:20] Right okay so there's zero empirical evidence that he your father has the capacity to have a good relationship with anyone except a fucking sports trophy, yeah which is you know kind of pathetic right, very okay so, I'm an empiricist, right? So I go with what is proven and evident to the senses, right? And as far as I understand it, what is proven and evident to the senses is that your father has absolutely zero capacity for productive and healthy relationships. I mean, if you're screaming at a baby, you have no heart, soul, or anything, right?
[1:15:10] Exactly right.
[1:15:12] I mean, to me, closure would be seeing someone scream at a baby, But you clearly, you know, listen, you are a very dedicated man. And you are holding on to things, which, you know, I mean, there's a plus to that. It's what's made you successful in your field, right? So I'm not going to begrudge you for that. But I may need to work to dispel a little bit of it, if that makes sense. So he has married three times. Did he stay with his last wife?
[1:15:45] What's that, sorry?
[1:15:45] Did he stay with his last wife?
[1:15:50] I don't even know. That's the thing. I have no clue.
[1:15:54] But is there any evidence on his profile or photos or anything?
[1:16:00] No, not at all. And here's the thing. In my head, part of me was sitting there thinking they would have divorced because it was pretty rocky when I was still around. And it's been eight years. surely by then that would have been like call it off and if he's got a and the profile photo says it itself you know what i mean so right like to me that just also screams out i'm single and you know this is what single bachelor guys fucking do not saying that's what he order like that's that's the impression i get right you think that right.
[1:16:39] Okay so probably back to solo land right, Okay. So, interesting. Oh, that's interesting. It would be interesting psychologically if it turned out that your father had become single at the same time as you felt a strong urge to reconnect with him. Like, it's almost like a remote control coming in off the unconscious, so to speak. I'm not talking about magic or anything, but just kind of a synchronicity thing.
[1:17:17] Yeah i wouldn't deny that honestly because uh there's there is an energy out there sometimes oh yeah yeah for sure like like so i definitely would believe that that's kind of what the hell, that'd be funny if it was yeah.
[1:17:36] Yeah okay all right so, hope you want a good relationship with your father which again I understand, what would it mean to you if that couldn't happen emotionally what would that mean to you.
[1:18:04] It would just mean that I'm not good enough, So what does that mean.
[1:18:16] You're not good enough?
[1:18:19] If I'm not good enough to, have a relationship with my dad, then am I good enough to have a relationship with anyone?
[1:18:32] With anyone? But your dad's a jerk.
[1:18:37] Yeah. It's just like that he's my father. Oh, I'm sorry. Sperm donor.
[1:18:46] Well, so, so your father defines whether you can fall in love. Oh, so if you don't, if you don't, if you don't become best buds with your dad, you're doomed to a life of loneliness and misery. Isolation. You can't be a father. You're such a man. Bro holds the key.
[1:19:04] Yeah. Yeah. Well, here's something to add to that. that's one of the big things as well is that because he sabotaged a lot of like my earlier relationships which i feel like is a direct cause as well as why i went for disfrazor promiscuity and dating low-rent women right right and because for me my in my head it was always like, him doing that made me feel like i wasn't good enough to have a relationship with a good quality woman as well right and that's what i started thinking about recently which is sort of what So he's still sabotaging.
[1:19:37] Though, if you think that having a good relationship with him is the absolute prerequisite to having any kind of quality relationship.
[1:19:46] Yeah.
[1:19:47] I mean, that sabotage is still going on, right? So he's still having power over you, like, after eight years, right? Because if you don't have a good relationship with your dad, you can't have a good relationship with anyone, right?
[1:20:04] Mm-hmm.
[1:20:06] If i understand the theory.
[1:20:08] Yeah that's that best describes that.
[1:20:12] Now uh of course uh you're absolutely wrong see easy easy peasy i just tell you that you're wrong and everything's better uh no uh it's it's you you you're not only wrong it's it's a delightful exact opposite of the truth, you can't have a good relationship with anyone if you're in a relationship with your father That's the absolute fact. Do you know why?
[1:20:46] The answer's there, but I'm bugging out right now.
[1:20:49] No worries. That's what I'm here for, baby. Okay, so the reason why you can't have a good relationship with anyone if you're in a relationship with your father is that a woman who cares about you, who loves you, will not be, will not want to spend time with your father, because he's the guy in this world who did you the most harm yeah.
[1:21:21] And I feel like as well, it's, well, for one, it's a good way to keep me isolated and not, you know, be good in the dating market. Because here's another thing as well, you would always be big excited on. And this is what I was going to actually ask him.
[1:21:36] Sorry, another thing, what?
[1:21:39] Oh, another thing, sorry. um this was what i was going to ask him about as well because because the thing would be he wouldn't want me to be successful in the dating world because like he always had this fixation that he always had the best had to have the better quality woman because it was always a competition with him and his uncle or my uncle sorry but not with you too, yeah with me too like i remember every time i'd be talking to like a good like a good looking girl I could just tell he was even like that. And my first girlfriend was like this overweight chick and they were really supportive of her.
[1:22:20] Right.
[1:22:23] But then when I started talking to a good looking quality chick like that girl that I was telling you about before, that was a problem. And that's where I feel like that's where the look came from when he looked at my, when he looked at his wife.
[1:22:38] Okay okay i mean i can't tell you how completely weird and semi-incestuous it is for a father to be in sexual competition for women with his son i can't even tell you yeah.
[1:22:48] It's it's it's cooked like don't get me wrong i know it's fucking weird like.
[1:22:54] Okay so how many quality women how many quality women want to be around a weirdo like your dad none oh absolutely done.
[1:23:06] Well oh that might that might be a bit of over exaggeration but.
[1:23:10] Sorry what might be.
[1:23:14] Not like the full i flat out know but.
[1:23:16] No no none no absolutely done by definition a quality woman does not want to be around does not does a quality woman want to be around a guy who screams at babies?
[1:23:27] No.
[1:23:28] Come on, man. Does she want that as a father-in-law?
[1:23:33] Oh, no.
[1:23:35] She doesn't want to have her kids around somebody who screams at babies, man.
[1:23:41] Hmm.
[1:23:43] Because that could be her. That's going to be her baby.
[1:23:46] Exactly right.
[1:23:47] I mean, would you want to hire a babysitter who screamed at your kids? At your babies?
[1:23:53] Absolutely not.
[1:23:54] No. So a relationship with your father would drive quality women away.
[1:24:07] Exactly right.
[1:24:08] You wanting a relationship with your father is just your father sabotaging you again in your mind, though.
[1:24:15] Hmm.
[1:24:19] If your father, your father, yes, give him what he wants. And your father also, he knows, as all fathers know, and you'll know this when you become a father, all fathers know that their children desperately want their approval, right? And they want their parents to be proud of them, right? Your father knows this too, right? Now, your father knows, because he also has had his own father, right? So, your father knows that you desperately want his approval and his admiration or his respect, or I don't know, however you'd want to put it, something like that, right? so your father has been knowingly withholding this from you because the first thing he says when you contact him is oh yeah no i've uh hey man i've been listening to your music i'm proud of you but he doesn't say that until you contact him which means he knows that you want that approval, you know he knows that you you want the approval from him but he will not give it to you, until you contact him even though he knows it's what you desperately want so he's still cruel.
[1:25:48] Yeah that that just made me feel really pissed off i think thinking about that in that context.
[1:25:54] I mean if if my daughter needs some big important medicine right but i just don't give her that medicine until she's begging me for it, it's kind of cruel. So, as far as falling in love, if you have your incredibly dysfunctional father around, a quality woman will look at you very sadly and say, I'm sorry, I can't have this as my father-in-law. I can't. So it's quite, that's why I say it's, it's, it's not just wrong. It's the complete opposite of the truth. You think that you can't fall in love until you have a good relationship with your father. My argument would be not only can you not have a good relationship with your father, but you can't fall in love if he's anywhere around.
[1:26:59] Okay. Right.
[1:27:01] Because to fall in love requires a quality woman. And a quality woman will not want to have anything to do with your father. And in fact, a quality woman will loathe your father because the more she cares for you, the more she's going to have big issues with a guy who did you this level of harm. I mean, and I can prove that to you in just a second, right? So let's take a very sort of strong emotional example. A woman you really care about and love turns out her father molested her as a child.
[1:27:38] Right?
[1:27:38] Are you going to want to be friends with the guy?
[1:27:42] Fuck no.
[1:27:43] Are you going to want to have him around your children?
[1:27:48] Nope. Right.
[1:27:49] Well, that's how she's going to feel to a not totally dissimilar degree about your father.
[1:27:57] Hmm.
[1:27:58] Do you think I would be married to the woman I'm married to if I was still desperate for the approval of my abusive mother? And if my abusive mother were still in my life?
[1:28:14] Absolutely not.
[1:28:16] Right. So why is it different rules for me and you?
[1:28:25] That's true and I think it's because as well it's another form of control he still wants over me because like you said before he still, had that sabotaging me after 8 years and you know that's, it's why I just wanted to like just let it out because I thought that would be the end of it but it's like.
[1:28:50] Well you're giving a cruel man power over you by saying um you you still have things you still have things that i desperately need yeah, and i just i don't see how that's going to go well at all.
[1:29:10] Yeah it's probably why i freaked out before i called him right it was something that i've never experienced before like I all like thought I was going to pass out and that's why I just left it I was like well I ring him and I be like oh I just completely forgot what I'm going to talk to you about right because I just yeah.
[1:29:31] Now, I'm happy to do a role play if you feel that would help, and it may well help, but because I'm still trying to figure out what you would get from your father. Because I think that your father, so far, your experience with your father has been that every time you interact with him, you feel worse. Now, you have a belief, which I completely understand and sympathize with, saying something like, well, hang on. I mean, I'm a grown-ass adult now, right? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. right but he's also gotten better at cruelty as time has gone forward right right he's he's more experienced as an abuser now and so um and and you're not right because you don't do abusive things so you are not nearly as experienced at abuse and cruelty as your father is.
[1:30:24] No definitely not.
[1:30:25] So i am generally a big one for don't go up against experts when they have the home team advantage yeah.
[1:30:34] That's that's a good analogy.
[1:30:36] I you know i thought i'd throw a sports thing in to make myself feel a little macho it's not easy it's not easy but i try no.
[1:30:45] It's not can i just just before we if we do do the role play i'll add one more thing.
[1:30:49] Yeah that I.
[1:30:50] Was thinking about. I think a part of it as well, why I wanted to ring him, I don't know if it matters much, but I think it's because in my head, I felt like I owed it to myself and owed it to the younger version of me to do it. So in my head, I just thought, you know, don't do it for you now, but do it for that kid that could never do it and dealt with all that pain.
[1:31:19] I absolutely appreciate that. And I really respect your desire to take care of your younger self. But I would say that it may not be ideal for your younger self to put him back under the power of your father.
[1:31:38] That's true.
[1:31:38] By going to your father with a naked need.
[1:31:42] Mm-hmm.
[1:31:46] Because your last naked need was, I mean, not the last, but the last that was happening right before the end was, at least that your father knew about, your last naked need was the girl that you really wanted, and how did he handle that?
[1:32:05] Fucking appalling. like it fucked me up for years like it only took me till now to finally get over it.
[1:32:10] Right like.
[1:32:11] It took years right to get over it.
[1:32:14] Right so there's there's great risk in this as well, uh people get physically weaker as they age but they don't get less cruel in fact they get more practiced and experienced with cruelty that's true so um you know and and unfortunately uh parents they always know what our weak spots are always i mean that's part of the responsibility of parenting is you know what your kids weak spots are so you're 100 responsible for not hammering them in their weak spots and all kids no matter how well raised all kids have weak spots every human being has a weak spot okay and you have your weak spots and your father knows them and i think it's fair to say he has no compunction about hitting every weak spot you have in order to feel superior or exercise his capacity for cruelty.
[1:33:08] Yeah, and that was one of my biggest worries because I knew he'd do that and it would just leave me like, what am I going to say now?
[1:33:16] Right. And the other thing too is that if I sort of put myself in your father's shoes and I say, gee, I've really missed having power over my son, so I'm actually going to give him everything he wants in this conversation. Right? That's why I was asking you what your ideal is.
[1:33:39] Okay.
[1:33:39] So if he wanted to exploit you more, then what he would do is, oh, I'm so sorry, and you're right, right? But with no particular conscience, because if he had the capacity for conscience, he would have thought about this stuff years ago and apologized to you without you having to lift a finger.
[1:33:58] Exactly right. Exactly right.
[1:34:00] Right. So my concern would be that he will give you everything you want. He will give the apologies. He will give you the pretend answers and all of that. and then he'll be back in your life. And then slowly but surely it will start to get worse.
[1:34:20] Exactly.
[1:34:21] So I think there is grave risk in this conversation.
[1:34:26] Yeah. Because one of the reasons why I couldn't call him all those years is because I remember the last time we spoke about him, is you mentioned it's like oh what like he's not reached out to you so why so you'll need to do it and that was enough to go up to make you go okay well there you go like.
[1:34:46] Well i i don't know if you've ever been around uh con men right so a con man um let's say that there's a con man uh who who takes you for a million dollars right and it burns it burns your brain for years and years and years right and then the con man is broke but you call up the con man and you say, i'm still enraged that you stole that million dollars from me right yeah what's the con man's best move.
[1:35:18] To take more money from you.
[1:35:22] Yeah yeah but how's he going to do that what's his best move to make more money from you is he is he going to hang up on you no.
[1:35:30] He's gonna tell you what you want to hear yep.
[1:35:32] He's gonna he's gonna say i'm so sorry i feel absolutely terrible about it i've been feeling terrible about it for years too but don't worry uh i've got a way to you know he won't do this right away he'd do this uh uh you know months or even years into the future he would say you know now that our relationship is re-established i just want to tell you i've been feeling you know i've got a way to get your money back i finally figured out a way for you to get your money back and then he'd just take you again and.
[1:36:01] Then yeah exactly.
[1:36:04] So that's my concern that that you will have a quote better relationship with your dad but uh it's going to come at a considerable doublecast now i wouldn't say that if he called you say hey man i heard your song on the radio and like i'm really sorry and blah blah blah what can i do but the fact that he didn't.
[1:36:25] Yeah and i took until me to make the first move.
[1:36:28] Well no but even then he's you know my concern is that he's trying to he needs something from you and he's going to try and uh get you to um, trust him again for some nefarious purpose because a con man is a con man is a con man, and they don't change, so yeah my concern is is that he gives you exactly what you want but um with the goal of exploiting you in the future so the fact that you texted him has he done anything with that so he you um what did you text him again so.
[1:37:17] I texted him i was like hey like i've been doing a lot of self-reflection um i need to talk about some stuff in my childhood when are you free and then he sent me that message saying oh i'm so proud of you or like, and all that stuff like i said before and then i literally just replied back like bluntly like what's your number and then he just sends it.
[1:37:37] Okay so he didn't actually um so he didn't respond to you saying oh yeah you know i'm sure you do have some stuff to talk about he just you know said i'm proud of you now that is uh that is an attempt to defuse your anger, Yes.
[1:37:54] That explains why I didn't feel anger when I saw it.
[1:37:58] Oh, he's like, oh, I'm going to shoot that gun out of his hand by telling him I'm proud of him. I thought of it. Your music is great. And, you know, that's not good. Because he hasn't actually addressed the issues that you have.
[1:38:19] He hasn't at all. He just didn't completely acknowledge that. Right.
[1:38:25] But what he did do was he did this is part of the um this is part of the the manipulation in my view is that uh he didn't actually deal with the anger that you've you've got um or anything like that what he did was uh he said exactly what he knew would be the most likely to diffuse your anger.
[1:38:52] And that was it yeah that does that explains my feelings in that moment.
[1:38:58] Right and it works right, yeah and nothing that a parent does with a child that works is accidental, so uh he didn't say uh what are you angry about or he didn't say yeah i've been thinking your childhood was not great either he didn't say i've had regrets he's like no no i'm proud of you Right?
[1:39:19] Yeah. Lonnie bugger.
[1:39:24] Well, that's, yeah, that's sort of my concern, right?
[1:39:27] Yeah. That makes sense. I agree.
[1:39:35] So, do you want to try the roleplay?
[1:39:38] Yeah, we'll try the roleplay.
[1:39:39] All right. So, I'll be you, you be your dad?
[1:39:44] Yeah.
[1:39:45] Dad, thanks for taking the call. I do appreciate it. And I know we haven't talked in, God, eight years. Eight years. That's wild. And I got some stuff I want to talk about, some issues I want to talk about with regards to my childhood. because I've been thinking about it off and on over the last eight years and I would really appreciate it if you'd give me a listen.
[1:40:13] Yeah, yeah, go for it, mate. What's up?
[1:40:15] All right.
[1:40:15] Talk to me.
[1:40:18] Do you know how screwed up my childhood was?
[1:40:24] No, not particularly, no.
[1:40:26] No?
[1:40:26] Where's this coming from?
[1:40:28] What do you mean where's this coming from? I don't understand.
[1:40:32] Um i'm i'm just a bit just a bit confused like you know i know we had a you know issues now when you got a bit older but i don't i don't i'm a bit i'm a bit confused of why you can't screw it up and what dad why did you only see me why.
[1:40:48] Did you only see me a, couple of like you said you saw me by like what two days out of two weeks.
[1:41:00] Why sorry what was that my um bluetooth speaker just died i'm sorry oh sorry my blue my bluetooth just died so is that you.
[1:41:12] Only saw me like two days out of every two weeks, right you remember that.
[1:41:21] Yeah yeah i remember that so.
[1:41:25] Why so little.
[1:41:28] Oh well i mean look at the end day like me and your mom we just couldn't work it out and that was just the best option i did the best i could i paid your mom maintenance and made sure there was food in your mouth and clothes on your back and yeah like like i don't i don't i don't know i don't understand like where this is all sort of coming from i'm a bit i'm a bit stumped.
[1:41:50] Okay i don't really care about that um so what do you mean you did the best you could what does that what does that mean.
[1:41:57] Well mate i all the times that like i you know i took you out to the football you know i you know like i said i i made sure you were fed and taken care of i did the utmost best to make sure everything was good and and reasonable with you and your mother and you know, like did all the best I could to make sure that you know that you're well taken care of like I don't yeah I don't get it what you what makes you think like that is a reason why I wouldn't have been a good father to you.
[1:42:35] Well do you think you can be a good father seeing your son two days out of every two weeks do you think that's do you think that's good parenting Thank you. Do you think that's good parenting?
[1:42:55] I did the absolute best.
[1:42:57] Do you think that's good parenting? Just answer the question. Don't be a coward.
[1:43:06] Mate, I'm not a coward.
[1:43:07] Do you think that is good parenting? It's a simple question. If somebody says, oh, yeah, I see my son two days out of every two weeks. I didn't fight for joint custody. I didn't fight for more time. I let my ex-wife, who I hated, take control over my son for about 90% of its existence. Do you think it is good parenting to see your son two days out of every two weeks?
[1:43:40] No, but do you...
[1:43:41] Okay, so let's go. Hang on, hang on. Slow your roll, Dad. Slow your roll. So it's not good parenting.
[1:43:52] No i guess not then.
[1:43:53] Okay so when you say to me, i did the best i could the best you could do is bad parenting, okay so then when you say to me i don't know where this is coming from it's really not very true is it dad.
[1:44:15] Um i like i said i did the absolute best that i could to.
[1:44:20] Make sure that you keep saying that dad dad dad come on let's let's stop the bullshit okay like we're grown men here right, that's embarrassing that you sorry dad it's actually kind of funny so the very best that you could do is just see me two days out of two weeks.
[1:44:42] Yes because obviously you had to work And you were with your mum.
[1:44:47] So because you had to work You couldn't see Come on dad Come on man This is embarrassing, So because All fathers who have to work Can only see their kids two days out of two weeks That's the way it is All fathers There are no fathers who work Who get say joint custody of their children.
[1:45:12] Will the circumstances.
[1:45:13] So stop giving me these stupid Fucking excuses Take some ownership You know dad when I was a kid You told me remember you told me it's important To be organized take responsibility don't Fuck around get things right, Right if I failed a test Let's say I didn't study for a test and I failed the test If I were to say well I did the best I could what would you say to me.
[1:45:38] I was like well it's not good enough You gotta study harder.
[1:45:41] Right So you're a grown-ass adult, and you just keep telling me, well, I did the best I could, I did the best I could. No, you didn't do the best you fucking could, Dad. Come on, it's embarrassing. You didn't fight for joint custody. You couldn't stand living with my mother, but you left me with her. You couldn't fucking stand living with Mom, but you left me with her. You couldn't handle her because she was too crazy and irrational, right?
[1:46:14] Yes So what is my fault?
[1:46:16] So you left me with her, You, a grown-ass adult Couldn't handle her But me Who was what, five?
[1:46:34] Yeah, something like that Oh.
[1:46:35] I'm supposed to The five-year-old is supposed to handle her But you can't.
[1:46:42] Hey i'm sorry that i left you with it all right i don't know what you want me to say like look what's done is done now it's it's obviously in the past i've had my regrets about it can we just can we just move on from this.
[1:46:55] Well hang on hang on sorry this is so bizarre conversation daddy it's so weird so you're telling me you've had regrets, about what you did in the past correct but then when i bring up issues about what didn't what you did in the past you paid you played dumb well i don't know where this is coming from because i'm an idiot so how could how can both things be true dad how can you both have regrets, about the decisions you made with me and then say you have no idea where any of my discontent is coming from. So you just lied to me, really badly, like about really important stuff. You just lied to me. You pretended like you had no idea why I would have any issues, while at the same time, not one minute later saying, you have regrets about the past, and about the decisions you made about me.
[1:48:06] You fucking liar.
[1:48:14] You know what, mate? Two wrongs don't make a bloody right.
[1:48:17] You liar. Take ownership. You lied. Don't you get aggressive with me, Dad, when you just lied to me in an absolutely appalling fashion.
[1:48:34] So what makes you think you can just get aggressive with me, then? If I'm being aggressive, what makes you think you can be that and I can just sit there and take it?
[1:48:42] Dad? Does that seem sensible? Dad? You need to stop this path. I saw you screaming at a baby. Remember? I was living with you. I was 18 or so. And you had that kid.
[1:48:58] I don't know what screaming. What are you talking about?
[1:49:02] Sorry, what word do you not understand? I can get a dictionary if you like.
[1:49:08] What baby? What are you talking about? What baby was I screaming at?
[1:49:11] Well, remember you married that woman. and she had a couple of kids, and then you had a kid with her?
[1:49:17] Yeah.
[1:49:18] Yeah. You were shouting and yelling at the baby. He's like one or two years old.
[1:49:28] Good Lord. So what, you're upset at me because I screamed at a baby? Is that why?
[1:49:35] Wouldn't any sane person be upset with a father who's screaming at a baby? Yeah.
[1:49:45] He would just go quiet.
[1:49:47] Do you think it's good parenting to scream at babies? Because if you thought it was good parenting, then you'd have been quite comfortable screaming at the baby on the bus or at the mall or on the street. But you never did, did you?
[1:50:04] Mate, I think you're just taking us a bit out of proportion now. I think it's just a bit... like, like clearly you're upset I get that but I don't know why this has to fall back on me when all I've ever done was do the absolute best I could in my.
[1:50:25] Scenarios okay so dad shut up shut up seriously shut up you just keep saying the same lies over and over again, see I don't know if you remember this because it seems like things are just flying through your brain like birds through a, fucking window but you said you did the very best you could and then you said you had regrets and had made mistakes so now you are you just like are you do you think i don't remember that you just said that you have regrets and made mistakes and now you're back to oh i did the very best i could, which was a lie so you're back to lying to me again, I mean do you think you're capable of telling the truth or do you just say stuff in the moment to try and score some points in your own brain.
[1:51:22] What are you even talking about.
[1:51:25] I'm sorry again I can pull out a dictionary if there's a word you don't understand, Which word is giving you trouble?
[1:51:36] So what, you think that I'm just a patholip, you think I'm just a liar? Is that all it is? You think I just lie about anything and say whatever whatsoever to benefit me? What in my life has that benefited me whatsoever? All the shit that I fucking went through.
[1:51:55] Oh, so I have problems with how you were parenting me and now you're playing the self-pity card?
[1:52:02] Mate, did you know, remember all the stories I told you about what my father did to me?
[1:52:07] Your father was very cruel to you, right?
[1:52:11] Yeah, he was. He locked me in the garage and would beat the shit out of me.
[1:52:15] Right.
[1:52:16] Did I ever do that to you? No.
[1:52:18] Right.
[1:52:19] I could have, but I did not.
[1:52:22] Right. No, you were a verbal abuser and you neglected me. But you didn't beat me or lock me in the garage. Yeah. Did your father yell at you and call you names?
[1:52:37] All the time, mate.
[1:52:38] Right.
[1:52:39] Like you would not believe.
[1:52:40] Well, I might be one of those people who believe you because you also yelled at me and called me names. And the weird thing is that, I mean, this is truly strange to me. You think that the fact that you had a father who yelled at you and called you names is an excuse. i think it gives you absolutely no excuse because you know exactly how painful and deadly and dangerous it is right how ugly and unpleasant and harmful it is, so if you say well son i yelled at you and called you names because my dad was cruel to me, there's no excuse at all because, you know exactly how harmful and toxic and cruel that is you know you experience instead. That'd be like me saying to my son, well, I had to put your hand in the fire because my dad put my hand in the fire. It's like, but if your dad put your hand in the fire, you know how painful it is. That's the last thing you should do to your kids. Do you see what I mean?
[1:53:47] Fair enough.
[1:53:54] So that was just another lie and an excuse then right.
[1:54:01] Well that's what you think then.
[1:54:02] No no it was because you said well uh i i i was mean to you because my father was mean to me and i point you out something really obvious and you say okay Well, that's true.
[1:54:19] Honestly, I'm lost for words. I don't know. I don't know what to say.
[1:54:24] Ah. It's interesting because when you want to yell at a baby, you're very eloquent. But when you get confronted about your bullying, suddenly you get very quiet and don't really have the words. Well, you said you have regrets. I mean, we want to be honest, right? So what are the other regrets that you have about the past? What other mistakes do you think you might have made?
[1:54:54] Well, for starters, being with your mom, that was a big mistake.
[1:55:00] Why did you choose to be with mom?
[1:55:05] That's a very good question, mate.
[1:55:07] Well, you've had decades to think about it. So what's your answer?
[1:55:12] Look alright when she wanted to have you I said.
[1:55:17] No no no hang on hang on we don't get you don't go straight to having babies right you didn't have a baby on your first fucking date, so you've had decades to think about why you were with your mother with my mother, so why did you date her why did you get involved with her why did you marry her why did you have children with her But let's just start with the dating. Did she not have any red flags when you first dating her?
[1:55:48] Not from what I can see, mate.
[1:55:50] Oh, so you met her, she was sane, but then after being with you for a while, she went crazy. That doesn't speak very well for you, does it? You drove her crazy?
[1:55:59] Mate, she, look, what happened between you and your mum was unfortunate.
[1:56:05] No, no, no. Being struck by lightning out of a clear blue sky is unfortunate. you made a choice. So are you saying to me, because it's important, right? Because I'm dating and all that, right? I'm a successful musician, so I'm doing this thing. So are you telling me, that mom seemed perfectly normal, happy and healthy when you first met her?
[1:56:32] Well, it seemed like yes.
[1:56:34] Okay. And how long do you think it took or how long did it take in your mind for mom to show signs of the craziness that she later showed the aggression the abuse the whatever right.
[1:56:45] Honestly it really started when you were born even before even even before then well i well i know.
[1:56:58] Okay so from when you first met her to when i was born was how long, uh just roughly i'd.
[1:57:10] Say three years.
[1:57:10] Three years okay so for three years she was perfectly normal and then she went crazy when she gave birth to me.
[1:57:23] Seems like it yeah.
[1:57:24] Okay so her family is also normal and healthy and has no dysfunction that they transmitted to her.
[1:57:38] From what I saw on the outside, yeah, they seemed fine.
[1:57:40] You weren't on the outside. We're talking years in. So not from the outside. You met her family, right?
[1:57:49] Yeah.
[1:57:50] Mm-hmm. So?
[1:57:51] Mate.
[1:57:52] I'm sorry?
[1:57:53] And look, they didn't seem to really like me as well either, which, you know, I tried the best to try to get along with them, but obviously they just didn't seem to really get along. We didn't really get along.
[1:58:08] Okay, so you're saying mom's childhood was great. She wasn't abused. She wasn't hit. She wasn't yelled at. She wasn't called names. She was raised in a peaceful and loving manner. And she was very mentally healthy until she'd been with you for a couple of years.
[1:58:25] Look, I don't know what she really went through specifically like that. But all I know is that it was great.
[1:58:33] Hang on, you must have asked her about her childhood. I mean, you haven't been exactly secretive about your childhood For which I do have sympathy, I really do I wish your dad had treated you better, But mom must have shared some things about her childhood.
[1:58:51] She said she had issues with her mom and stuff But that was about it.
[1:58:58] Okay, so she just had some issues with her mother So she wasn't abused, is that right?
[1:59:04] No, I think she said that she was getting into fights with your mum Like physical fights with her mum And she went to come and stay with me Basically to get out of the house Wait.
[1:59:19] What? She was having physical fights with her mum And she had to flee to your house because it got so violent?
[1:59:28] Yes That's what happened Sorry.
[1:59:33] I thought you just told me, Jesus, this is crazy making, Dan. I thought you just told me that there were no red flags.
[1:59:43] Well, I didn't see it really as a red flag, to be honest with you, because that was just a norm.
[1:59:48] It was the norm for women to get into fistfights with their mother and have to flee the house because of the degree of violence. That was just the norm. That was just what everyone did.
[1:59:56] Well, obviously not, mate. Obviously not.
[2:00:00] Well, no, no.
[2:00:00] It's just what happened.
[2:00:01] No, you said you thought it was the norm. So when you say you thought it was the norm, you didn't even say you thought it was the norm. And then I repeat it back to you and you say, well, obviously that's not the norm. So I'm a little fucking confused, Dad. Is it the norm or not?
[2:00:17] No, it's not the norm.
[2:00:19] Okay, so it's unusually violent, right?
[2:00:23] Correct.
[2:00:24] So that's a red flag. So again, you lied to me when you told me there were no red flags, and then you did this bullshit move of saying somehow I was mysteriously responsible for mom having anger issues when she in fact had been violent. Her mother had beaten her up to the point Where she had to flee the house I assume because she feared grievous physical injury Or death, So you just tried to put it on me being born When in fact God you're such a liar Do you get that about yourself? Do you I mean Do you know that? I'm just curious I'm not even that mad I'm just kind of curious Do you know that You just keep lying to me? I mean, you've admitted to a couple. I mean, do you know that? Or do you just move to the next slide?
[2:01:24] You would just get quiet.
[2:01:27] Hmm. So when you're in the wrong, you get awful kind of quiet. But I don't remember you being so quiet when I was trying to do my resume and making a couple of typings. Well, then you were very aggressive. But when you're in the wrong, you just get kind of quiet and bitchy about it, right?
[2:01:42] What's that got to do with anything.
[2:01:43] Sorry i'm not sure what your question is.
[2:01:46] What is me trying to help you with your resume which was important got to do with anything to do with your your mother like what.
[2:01:55] Oh no that's fine it wasn't actually about mom i can spell it out for you if you want to play dumb that's fine so the reason is that when you've got criticisms of me you're all kinds allowed when you've got criticisms of your little baby you're all kinds of yelling and screaming and loud but when you get criticized you get real quiet and don't want to say anything so when you've got criticisms of others you're shouting so loud your face turns purple but when someone has a criticism of you oh cat's got your tongue right dad you're just all kinds of quiet, So you could scream at other people for making innocent mistakes, like having a typo on a resume. But when someone has a genuine criticisms of you, because you like lie like crazy, well, you don't really have anything to say. You get very quiet. Sorry, you were going to say that.
[2:03:00] I did not bloody yell at you when I was doing that. Okay. I know I've got issues with my temper.
[2:03:10] I'm sorry, Dad. I don't mean to laugh. I'll tell you why this is funny, Dad. Just honestly. I mean, I say this without any malice at all. I genuinely find this funny. You've told me in the space of, I don't know, 15 minutes or whatever, five major lies. But now you come in and tell me Oh I didn't yell at you Like why would I believe you When you haven't even apologized to me For lying, You haven't apologized to me for not fighting to spend more time with me. You haven't apologized to me for leaving me with mom. You haven't apologized. I mean, Jesus Christ, Dad, you were charging me 200 quid. You are charging me 200 bucks a week for that shitty little room in the back of your house. Do you remember that?
[2:04:07] That's what it's all about as well, money. You're just mad because I just made you pay the money.
[2:04:12] No, no, no. I didn't ask you for editorial. I just asked you if you remembered that.
[2:04:18] Yes I do.
[2:04:19] And then when I wanted to move out You kind of held my stuff hostage Until I paid you the 400 Bucks.
[2:04:29] Like I said Like I told you that night We had bills to pay.
[2:04:33] No because earlier you told me That you didn't need the money You were just trying to teach me responsibility.
[2:04:40] Mate I don't even remember you saying that.
[2:04:43] You don't remember saying that well i'm sure that's just i'm sure you're being completely honest now not just saying something that's a falsehood to win at some stupid point in the moment because lord knows you haven't done that yet this conversation okay so i was uh i had to flee mom's house right because you know how crazy she is and you know that because you fled mom's house right yeah so i had to flee mom's house and i had to take that shitty little back room, And you started You started charging me rent Almost right away, After only taking me For two days a week When I was a kid dad, Don't you think you owed me A little room and board, Don't you think you owed me a little shelter? You owed me kind of a soft place to land after abandoning me to the crazy woman you couldn't handle for 18 years?
[2:05:51] So you think that the whole time that you were here, you didn't think that I gave you a shelter and I gave you your own place to stay, to come and go when you please? And all I wanted was just a bit of money just to help around the house?
[2:06:08] Sorry i don't i don't sorry i don't understand but i didn't understand the first part of what you said could you repeat it.
[2:06:13] Yeah i said so what you think that because you think that the whole time you hear that it wasn't me giving you shelter giving you a place to stay.
[2:06:24] No you weren't no you weren't giving me a place to stay because you were charging me 200 bucks a week, that's like saying the hotel's giving you a place to stay you just have to pay them 200 bucks a night it's like no you're buying it you're paying for it it's not giving did.
[2:06:39] You remember though did you remember though why i did that.
[2:06:41] Well i don't know because you told me two contradictory things one thing you told me was that you don't need the money you were just trying to teach me responsibility and the other thing is you said you need the money because you have bills to pay so i don't know what the fucking truth is because it's too contradictory all right i do know that after having fled mom's house just as you had to do that maybe after you only saw me, two days out of two weeks that maybe you could give me a little comfort and shelter without going through my wallet right away.
[2:07:27] Wasn't right away don't you remember that i didn't start charging you until a few months in.
[2:07:36] Okay you're right you're right i had eight to ten weeks of not being charged by my father who abandoned me to my crazy mother i had you do right i did have eight to ten weeks before you started going through my fucking wallet.
[2:07:50] Mate you are bloody unreal i'll tell you what like to put this all on me and not even your mother like that's just like that's just fucking disgraceful that you would talk to your own father like this.
[2:08:03] I'm sorry i did you not go through my wallet for money uh what am i saying that's false i'm sorry is the truth disgraceful to you what am i saying what am i saying i was trying to help.
[2:08:20] Oh, look, if you're going to bloody argue, you know what? There's no point having this bloody conversation.
[2:08:24] What do you mean about argue? You're the one pulling all of this bullshit, girly, naggy. Oh, it's so disgraceful. Come on, at least argue like a man. Don't pull all this emotional manipulation bullshit. What are you, a girl guide?
[2:08:40] Oh, he would hang up right now. He would tell me to go fuck myself and that's it.
[2:08:45] Good. Okay, so that would be my closure.
[2:08:48] Yeah.
[2:08:49] Because that was a fucking repulsive conversation. My skin was crawling the whole time.
[2:08:55] Honestly, that was amazing. I was in that.
[2:09:00] Oh, man, you did a great job. Holy shit, man. What an artist. And the Oscar goes too. If you and I had a more diverse cast, we could get an Oscar.
[2:09:10] Very claps.
[2:09:11] No, no, seriously. How was that for you?
[2:09:15] That was interesting. um i was trying to engage obviously on what like you were saying and kind of like bookmark that but as well obviously trying to just really pinpoint and remember what kind of stuff he would say because like i've had this run through my head millions and millions of times to sit there and think like what he would say what he would do and um, yeah that's basically and it's just by the book like everything i did just then is like 99% accurate on what he'd be like yeah.
[2:09:48] And of course i'm trying to play you with incomplete information so i'm just doing my best but um no that was um that was like that's hell that to me is absolute hell that there's like.
[2:10:00] That's the bottom.
[2:10:00] Layer of hell there's nothing lower down that.
[2:10:03] Level of toxicity and.
[2:10:05] Pathological falsehood manipulation aggression lying i mean that's just that's just monstrous to me.
[2:10:11] That's that's what i dealt with well i'm sorry for that.
[2:10:15] I'm really sorry for that. And somebody who just can't take any responsibility. And just lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies.
[2:10:24] That's all it was.
[2:10:25] Yeah. There's nothing real there. And that's what I mean. You can't get any facts. Oh, there were no red flags. She had a great childhood. Well, except for the fact that her mother beat her black and blue and she had to flee to my house covered in blood or whatever was going on, right? I mean, it's just lies. Oh, and throwing in this bit, well, she was fine till she had you. I mean, what are you, the Antichrist here who takes mom's sanity? That's about as ugly a thing. Honestly, that is literally about as ugly a thing as a father can say to a child. It's your mother was perfectly mentally healthy, but went insane and evil when she had you.
[2:10:57] That's yeah honestly.
[2:10:59] That to me is like dead that that person would be dead to me like just that that's such a ugly ugly move.
[2:11:06] Yeah because it's just that's that's the narrative basically that's the narrative from what at least i know it's always been like it's always been he said she said bullcrap and like oh isn't that interesting i'm sorry you.
[2:11:21] Were swearing like an australian and now it's.
[2:11:23] Bullcrap after we have the convo with your dad there's an inoculation against wearing.
[2:11:28] Isn't that interesting anyway.
[2:11:29] Go on yeah it was just he said she said shit and it was just like that's all i got so it was never like i got a true it was always oh you won't get any no one yeah there's no truth yeah i won't get no truth and yeah there's no truth i don't know if that's played in played in a part of like my psychology why i'll be so confused about a lot of stuff but like i've like like i've spent a lot of years trying to figure out and really process what i went through and obviously with every call in like we've had i've gotten a lot better and better and got a lot more clarity but yeah it's honestly the amount of shit that i've had to fucking go through just to like figure this all out because they just were so incompetent and were just compulsive wise and just the shit like that they basically put me through, it's just like well.
[2:12:22] Okay and i.
[2:12:22] I sympathize.
[2:12:23] With you about your childhood bottomlessly but you're putting yourself through it now.
[2:12:27] They're not here that's true when did you talk to your mother, Uh, three, four years ago now.
[2:12:36] Right.
[2:12:36] Three, three years ago.
[2:12:37] Okay. So your father's eight years, mother three or four. Now you're doing it to yourself. And that's bad news and good news. It's bad news because there's no one to blame, but it's good news because it's solvable.
[2:12:53] It is. That's.
[2:12:55] Can't solve it when you're 10 or five or 15, right? But you could solve it when you're 27.
[2:13:00] Yeah. That's true. it's just now, processing it.
[2:13:10] Would you like the litany of bitter facts, yeah alright bitter facts so anger as I said before comes from hope, I hope they'll do better I hope they'll tell me the truth I hope they'll be nicer I hope they won't lie and they just get angry and eventually the anger is not anger at your parents. It's anger at your own refusal to accept the facts about your parents. Because if you won't accept the facts about your parents, you're helpless because you keep going back to try and fix it.
[2:13:58] That's really true.
[2:14:00] So the helplessness is because your anger is supposed to get you away from danger, right? Fight or flight, fight or flight. Well, there's no fight here, right? Because you're not fighting with your parents, right? So, because you don't talk to them. So it's now, I wouldn't say flight, but it is to get you to safety. But if you keep returning to re-engage as if there's something there, then you can't get to safety. which means your anger becomes chronic and then you have no peace of mind and then you say well by god if i could just get the facts of the truth of the connection of the closure from my parents i'll be fine but then you keep going back which keeps making your anger helpless yeah.
[2:14:42] That's true that's how i felt helpless like.
[2:14:49] So we're not helpless yeah but we're not helpless if we accept the facts Mm-hmm, So you ready for the grim litany of unpalatable facts Yeah You will never get, what you need from your parents, Never, For two reasons One, they're messed up and two you're 27 7th. Right. If I was, if I was supposed to be six foot five, but I was malnourished as a child, which I kind of was, but if I was supposed to be six foot five and I was malnourished as a child, does it make any sense for me to start eating extra food when I'm 27?
[2:15:44] No.
[2:15:45] It's not going to, it's not going to make me taller, is it? It's just going to make me wider.
[2:15:49] Yeah.
[2:15:50] Because the time has passed. you can't get what you want from your parents because you don't need to be parented anymore. Now, I'm not saying that in a healthy family, your parents can't be useful and helpful and so on as you grow up and get older, but it's not parenting. You know, my daughter is 16, right? So she's gone fairly soon. And, you know, I'll hopefully help her out as an advisor from time to time, you know, in the course of her life and so on. You know, if she wants to do something entrepreneurial, I can have some help or value. But it's more like a consultant role. It's not parenting in the same way, right? So you're post-parenting because you're 27.
[2:16:45] So even if your parents were to somehow, I don't know, they get hit by lightning and they wake up as wonderful people tomorrow, you still can't be parented.
[2:17:00] So, trying to be parented later in life is trying to put a baby back in a mother's womb. It doesn't work. It's one way. It's one way straight. So, the frustration that you feel is based on the belief that you can get something that you need from your parents. Now, whether that's good parenting or better behavior or honesty or truth, or this magic spell called closure, your parents cannot give you closure.
[2:17:29] No.
[2:17:30] The closure comes from the acceptance of who they are. Now, this is my amateur view of these things. So, you know, go talk to a professional if there's anything that you feel is wrong about this or whatever, right? But my amateur view of these things in general, and this is some hard-won knowledge, which certainly doesn't mean that it's perfect, but I'll tell you it's hard-won. So there are people, there's two kinds of people in the world. there's people who have problems and there are people who are problems, yeah in other words there are people who have functional personalities with quirks and there are people it's called character logic like the dysfunction is the personality, yeah so with regards to the role play with your father what I was constantly probing for was a conscience or an observing ego.
[2:18:31] So we all lie from time to time, hopefully less than more, but we all will tell a falsehood or a fib or a lie from time to time. And sometimes we'll be caught, right? And when we're caught, we should say, oh, you know what? That's, you're right. That was a falsehood. I'm really sorry. I'll work on that. And my apologies. And that wasn't good. You know, that kind of stuff, right? Because, you know, we want to maintain good relationships with people, right? So that's because we have a standard called, I want to tell the truth. And like all standards, we fall short of it from time to time. And then we work to fix that standard, right? you know if we're dieting and we have a handful of i don't know chocolate covered almonds or something and we may say oh i really should cut back on that or i shouldn't eat too many of those or you try and put yourself back on course right yeah so with regards to your father, when i first pointed out that he had unambiguously lied He rushed on with no conscience.
[2:19:54] He didn't say, ooh, you know, you're right. And then he tried to simply inflict the lie again later on in the conversation in the blind hope that I'd forgotten about it.
[2:20:07] Yeah.
[2:20:08] Right? When he said there's no red flags with your mother until year three or the third year when you came along and then it turns out that she'd fled from her mother because of a fist fight or something like that. uh he didn't say oh god you know what now that you mention it like earlier in the conversation when we were talking about something you were saying oh gosh well wait now that i'm remembering it right yeah so he didn't say you know what uh i said there were no red flags but, come to think of it that's kind of a red flag isn't it right so i'm sorry about that that's kind of misleading right like that's what somebody with a conscience would say yeah.
[2:20:49] So uh it's a difference like if if if if an honest person, uh gets mysterious money they will try to find out where it came from and restore it to its rightful owner if a con man gets mysterious money he'll just hide it all and move on like nothing happened right yeah and so the father that you were playing uh told lies and and and just constant lies and with no conscience and with no uh oh gosh that wasn't a good thing or i'm sorry i lied or nothing right and i even gave the prompt if you remember i gave the prompt and said you didn't i mean you didn't apologize for this you didn't apologize to that you didn't apologize for the other, right? And what did your father do?
[2:21:41] He just lied.
[2:21:44] He just moved on with no acknowledgement. So that's not somebody who has a problem with lying. That's somebody who is lying, so to speak. That's the only strategy they really have.
[2:21:57] Yeah.
[2:22:01] And of course, he ends up yelling at a baby because he can't manipulate a baby.
[2:22:05] Exactly right. It's like he's yelling.
[2:22:09] Well, when you were little, right? And that's why he's all kinds of tough when he can bully a child. But when someone comes to him and proves him wrong about something important... He just goes quiet, goes silent, goes sullen.
[2:22:25] Now to think of it, that's sort of as well what I kind of wanted. Like now that I'm an adult was to win. Yeah, that was the big thing was I wanted to get that over him basically like. Now thinking about it, this is my conscience coming in that it was basically. i wanted to get one up over him.
[2:22:51] Absolutely and i totally understand that impulse, and that's called engaging yes now the problem is that if your father is the kind of person who appears to be in the role play the kind of person who evidence points to the kind of person i think he is right which is not certainty but it's what i think then the problem with engaging with people who have no conscience is that there's no limit to what they will do you have a limit to what you will do because you have a conscience so it's like going into business with someone and you say well i want to win in business with this person like but but they're perfectly content to lie they have they lie without a conscience but i don't i don't like i don't want to lie and i i hate lying, Well, you're just going to lose, because they have the truth, which they can tell, and you have the truth that you can tell, but they have lying, which they can do, and you don't have lying, which you can do. So they have a massive extra advantage or toolbox.
[2:24:02] It'd be like going into a boxing ring and you have your boxing gloves on and uh he has knives on the tips of his shoes and he's willing to kick can you win that fight, no because you both have gloves but he also has the knives so you both have the truth but he also is willing to lie without conscience to to win in the moment and he showed no he he was only sullen, that his trick did not work he did not feel bad for lying.
[2:24:36] In the role play even when i clearly said well you haven't even apologized for this that or the other he still didn't say you know what you're you're right i mean this is very disrespectful to lie to you about such important stuff i'm i'll i'll take a deep breath and i'll i'll i'll really concentrate going forward i'm sorry for that i mean that would be a decent thing to do right yeah nothing he just tried lying more and more and every time i'd catch him i'd catch him and then eventually when i caught him he'd just go silent.
[2:25:12] Like, it had me silent.
[2:25:14] I'm sorry?
[2:25:15] It had me, like, in the role play, it had me silent. I was like, well, I mean.
[2:25:20] What can I say? Right.
[2:25:23] Yeah, like, that's.
[2:25:24] Yeah, because at that point, somebody, a person with a conscience would apologize.
[2:25:29] Yeah.
[2:25:29] But he's just like, well, damn it. This, my magic words didn't work. I've got nothing to say.
[2:25:36] Because in that moment, I was trying to sit there and think, like, all right, what would he say now in this position? and there was just nothing there.
[2:25:43] Was literally.
[2:25:43] Nothing at all and i was like that's when it just started to click to me it's like no shit.
[2:25:49] Now i was being i was being pretty aggressive with the role play um although there were times when i found it and you laughed as well because i think you've got some of the shit because it is just so it becomes so absurd when you're just with people who lie lie lie it just yeah they just it becomes so absurd what they're saying it becomes funny you know like the kid put chocolate all over his face who says i didn't eat any chocolate like it's just funny at that point because i mean they're just that's just so sad and pitiful i mean not for kids because you know they're just experimenting with lying but, um oh so why do you think i was more aggressive and kind of goading towards the end to the point where he hung up because I was being pretty contemptuous and I've actually felt that genuinely, but I was not even trying to be diplomatic towards the end.
[2:26:47] Um, maybe escalate to the point, see what he would do or. Hmm. being out of frustration or just like, yeah, just ask.
[2:27:08] No, I wasn't, I wasn't frustrated. Uh, but for me, it was when he was, um, saying that what I was saying was disgusting.
[2:27:20] Right now that is, um, that's tone policing, right? It's just, it's just applying a negative word to a statement, which is why I came back with, well, what did I say that was false? Are you saying that the truth is disgusting?
[2:27:35] Right and he wouldn't answer what i said was false because he couldn't right, and then the reason i goaded him was because i really really dislike this is i'm not saying he's a leftist but this is kind of like a leftist thing and the right does it sometimes too left a little bit more but it's it's where you just it's the equivalent of this these these scientific facts are racist or or you know this if you're trying to disprove the wage gap uh you're a misogynist like it's just it's just it's really pathetic and and a very peculiarly dysfunctional female style of arguing which is just um and and i'm maybe he shared this with your mother where, you just start applying negative words to what the person is saying without addressing the substance, of you know like if I was on social media and said two and two make four and then someone says well this person wrote something bad about you it's like well what does that have to do with the argument, it's just negative stimuli being applied to a conversation rather than addressing the content of the argument and it is a weak, and dysfunctional female way of fighting Like.
[2:28:58] Because it's not a fair fight. It's not an honest fight. But that's why I said, basically, like this, like a girl guy, like you got to fight like an honest man. because I wanted to see if him fighting like an honest man was, okay, I think you're wrong. This is how an honest man would fight and an honest woman, right? But we're talking about a man here, right? So he would say, okay, lay your case out. I don't agree with you. Lay your case out. Let's go through it bit by bit. Let's go through it line by line because I think you're wrong, right? That's how an honest man would debate.
[2:29:35] Hmm.
[2:29:38] A cucked, pathetic, estrogen-laced soy boy would fuck off and hang up. No, that's a cry bully. It's a coward.
[2:29:52] That's the issue. What do you do?
[2:29:55] The verbal abuse rage quit? That's bad girl. That's like dysfunctional female.
[2:30:04] Yeah.
[2:30:06] And so So I deliberately, to some degree, said, you're fighting like a girl, not like a man. I didn't even say like a woman. You're fighting like a girl, not like a man. That's the Don Corleone moment. I don't know if you ever see The Godfather, where he takes the singer and is like, you can stop crying about it, right? so that is the moment where you say is a masculine fact based conversation possible, or are you just going to rage quit like a little bitch yeah, now there's no insult that I threw at him that was 1% of him saying, your birth made your mother insane.
[2:31:02] Yeah.
[2:31:04] There were no red flags until you were born. So, what I bet, where are you in the birth order again?
[2:31:16] On the eldest.
[2:31:17] Right. So, I can tell you what happened. This I know for sure, right? So, I can tell you what happened with your mother and your father. And knowing, of course, that your mother is dysfunctional too. But, If your father Is selfish And he seems quite selfish If your father is selfish, Then He, When a baby is born, and I hope I say this with some authority because I've been a stay-at-home dad for 16 years, but when a baby is born, selfish people can't handle it. Because when a baby is born, you have to become without ego, and it's all about the baby.
[2:32:02] Correct.
[2:32:04] It's all about what the baby needs. The baby doesn't care what you need. the baby is obviously programmed and designed and and so on to focus on what the baby needs so you have to put your ego aside and you have to focus on someone else and their happiness, and that's all it's not reciprocal, now of course a baby gives you happiness and pleasure back but you know they're fun to play with and they giggle and all of that. But you have to be there for the baby. It's not about you. It's not about your ego. It's not about what you want. So you have to be absolutely unselfish. Now, you can say in the larger selfish sense, you want to have a baby. But in terms of the immediate caretaking of the baby, you have to be unselfish. Now, if your mother destabilized when you were born i believe i mean absent some weird hormonal thing but i believe it's one thing and one thing only that she looked at your father and she was like he can't be unselfish he cannot take care of the baby.
[2:33:17] Yeah my mom even got postpartum depression when she had me apparently.
[2:33:29] Right i mean my mother did too and my father was terrible at taking care of me he was supposed to take care of me when i was a baby and let me crawl around because he wanted to play tennis and i ended up drinking the weed killer.
[2:33:40] Yeah do you remember the story i told you about where i ate dog food and he, came in and started screaming and knocked the food out.
[2:33:48] Right right right right right right right so he's screaming at a baby because the baby is saying i need you to be here for me but he can't stop being selfish, my father was like well I'm supposed to be taking care of my baby but I want to play tennis and he chose to play tennis.
[2:34:13] Because that's what he wanted. Now, and this was a fight that my mother had with him, which is that he found fatherhood, I think, kind of boring and frustrating. Right? And yeah, okay, they're babies. There's going to be a bit of repetition. I get that. You're going to have to read the same story over and over again. They like a particular song. You sing it till your voice goes hoarse or whatever, right? But that's fine. I mean, that's the deal, right?
[2:34:40] So i would imagine that when your father says, your mother was fine until you came along he's actually confessing that his mother realized he would be a bad father after you were born, and that's pretty depressing for a woman, yeah because then she has uh she's she's she's two infants in a sense to take care of and that's not exactly except one is large and aggressive and can be mean, so i imagine that's where i mean he probably feels that that's true right, but it's true because i would imagine i mean nobody will know for sure right because probably can't get the truth from anyone but i would imagine it's because she had the baby and he was bored and irritated and annoyed and wanted to go off and do things and she's like oh god this is worse than being a single mom and then a single mom she became right.
[2:35:45] Yeah yeah that would explain it.
[2:35:47] Now she's responsible for choosing a guy who was probably too selfish to be a good father but nonetheless when the baby's there you're not thinking about the choices you made two years ago you're thinking about how am i going to get through this day and then and then the woman is in a terrible situation especially if the child is crying at night as the babies as they do right because then the husband gets angry and annoyed like i need my sleep i gotta work in the morning and and then she's really stressed and and then the stress hormones hit the baby through the breast milk and the baby cries more and it's just oh it's a nightmare it's a nightmare yeah so i.
[2:36:23] Can relate that a lot.
[2:36:24] Yeah i mean my mother was hit hard with what they call postpartum and again maybe there's hormonal stuff and all of that i'm just telling you about my sort of obviously amateur view of these kinds of things but i've certainly seen quite a bit of this uh over the course of my work here and and just life as a whole so so yeah i think that there's real truth in that but uh it's not it's not what he thinks it is, but it was nice for him to put his failures as an adult on you as a baby nice classy yeah, classy good job dad yeah yeah good job yeah and that's that's how you know the selfishness is going on right because it's very selfish to uh sort of somehow intimate to your son that that you're what a demon child who's destroyed your mother's sanity i mean that's completely crazy right exactly.
[2:37:14] Which doesn't do well for me growing up a lot older because you know you but with like self-hatred and you blame yourself for a lot of shit you know you internalize that and yeah that's that's what i was working through for so long.
[2:37:28] Right and it's not true it's absolutely in no way shape or form not it's not true uh children i mean it really is the um, uh it is it is the greatest i mean the greatest joy is marriage and philosophy and, slightly under that is being a father and i only say that because if it didn't have a good marriage and great philosophy i wouldn't really enjoy being a father because i'd have been a bit of a jerk or perhaps a lot of a jerk.
[2:37:57] Yeah of course yeah i got i got um yeah i'll sit there and think about like when I have kids and I just get filled with like it's weird as I get some sort of baby rabies or something but it's just like I can't wait to be a dad you know.
[2:38:13] Yes yes yes and and this is why I don't want you to have to wait to be a dad to realize what a bad dad your father was and how you should not have um you should not blame yourself for your father's failings and your father should not have credibility because he was barely a dad and in fact he probably just did, um more harm than no dad.
[2:38:44] He did a lot of harm.
[2:38:47] Yeah i mean my uh my father uh i i was i missed him of course but i am, i am better off because my father did not raise me yeah and the the good grace that your father did was only seeing you in my view two days every two weeks yeah.
[2:39:13] Thank god for that i.
[2:39:14] Yeah, So, again, I genuinely don't know, if you should or should not talk to your dad. I don't know. But I certainly will say that I would not give him control over your piece of mind. And there's no need for it.
[2:39:48] With that being said, if you probably explained it in the course somewhere and I completely forgot, I do apologize, but obviously because I'm in the moment right now. So how do I go about, I guess, finding peace of mind and if I choose not to contact him, which I'm very leaning towards not doing it now that I've like, just like we've looked through it and seen what could happen. or like like in terms of like how do i sort of i guess yeah be at peace with that that anger i guess or does that just come like you said the not hoping.
[2:40:32] Well so the anger i mean but the anger if if the anger is helplessness in other words if you are dependent upon the kindness of a cruel person then you're helpless like if your peace of mind is dependent upon the kindness and honesty of a cruel and lying person then you're helpless yeah and that helplessness is tough but if you continually think and i'm toying with the idea in your mind then the helplessness stretches on for so long that it becomes a kind of torture right so so i'll give you i'll give you sort of silly example so many years ago i was in florida at a gator park i know this is going to sound like the weirdest analogy known to man right so and i had a nice pair of sunglasses and i was leaning over, to look at a gator that was i was on a you know they have these i don't know if you but they have these boardwalks that go through the swamp and so i was leaning over to look at a gator in the gator park and uh my my sunglasses which were very nice quite a pricey slipped off my face, now like everyone whose glasses slip off i don't know if you wear glasses you grab for them right yeah right so you grab for them and and i almost had them right, and then they fell down and landed on a gator.
[2:41:57] Now i had hope while i was grabbing at my glasses as they fell However, did I get my glasses?
[2:42:08] No.
[2:42:09] I did not get my glasses because I'm not going to go down and get them off a gator, right? So I was disappointed and then I basically had to move on and let it go. So, what I'm saying is that I had hope when I could still get my glasses. I was grabbing at them as they fell, right? However, now, if they'd fallen and, I don't know, bounced somewhere right where I could reach them through the bars or whatever it was, through the fence or whatever, right? Maybe, right? But they fell right near a gator and I wasn't going to get them. So, that's like, I don't have hope. Oh, maybe if I do this or I get a stick or like, I just was, I'd be like, say goodbye. The glasses are gone. yeah right it's like if you if you i don't know if you've ever dropped something off you go fishing or you drop something off a boat right yeah and you grab it and and you grab it it but if you don't get it it just sinks into the lake right exactly right and and then it and it's gone right, and so the problem is is if you just keep grabbing at things or you keep thinking well what if i try this or what if i try that or maybe if i climb down and just kick it off the gator and bathe really quick or whatever it was, right? But it's the acceptance, the glasses are gone, whatever I dropped off the boat is gone.
[2:43:34] And then you feel sad about it. And I had to, you know, buy a pair of cheap sunglasses, you know, ZZ Top Star. So my point is that it's the hope and the maybe, right? That's what drives you crazy. But there was some guy who lost a huge amount of Bitcoin on a computer. He tossed it out and he wanted to go and check the local dump. He spent years trying to get the government to let him go check the dump.
[2:44:00] Yeah.
[2:44:03] Whereas there's some other guy in Germany who had, I think, 10 password guesses on some drive that had his Bitcoin, and he guessed wrong 10 times, and then it erased the drive completely. So his Bitcoin are gone, right? So the tension, the frustration, the anger is bound into the hope.
[2:44:28] Yeah.
[2:44:32] So you have to this is why I said these are the unpalatable facts, which is your parents aren't going to change how do we know that because they haven't, and when you become a father if you can imagine not speaking your child not speaking to your child for 8 years it's incomprehensible yeah, if your child has an issue with you sorry to interrupt if your child has an issue with you it's absolutely incomprehensible that you would tell your child to F off and hang up, do you think my daughter has never had any criticisms or issues with me of course she has and I would say most times not all times but most times she's right, So I, you know, not only do I listen to her when she has an issue, I will solicit feedback. How am I doing? Anything I can do better? Because, you know, kids are constantly changing. So what was good parenting six months ago might be bad parenting now.
[2:45:45] Exactly.
[2:45:46] Right? So little kids love repetition. Older kids find it annoying, right?
[2:45:54] So your father is so far off the pale of what good parenting is i mean screaming at babies and yelling at you and calling you names and you know humiliating you with the girl and uh you know not talking to you for eight years and like this just and then throwing you this little bone of like oh i'm so proud of you your music's so great you know uh which is just it's just terrible and wretched all around and so so that's so far off the beaten path of good parenting and you'll know that more viscerally when you become a parent and i'm sorry to pull that card oh you'll know when you be but there's kind of there is a kind of truth to it that uh i didn't really understand how bad my parents were until i became a parent because good parenting is just so much fun it's so enjoyable.
[2:46:42] And so the idea that you would not talk, that your child would have an issue with you or a problem with you and would say, I don't want to talk to you. I'm so mad at you. And you wouldn't say, gosh, no, sit, don't leave. Like, don't leave, sit down. Help me understand. I'm so sorry. I must have done something. You're totally, I'm going to assume you're totally in the right. There's some blind spot I have. Please, please explain it to me. I'm desperate to know because i love you and i i can't stand the idea if you walk you out here that angry yeah right but that's not what your father did.
[2:47:24] Right? He didn't contact you for eight years.
[2:47:30] No.
[2:47:35] That is incomprehensible to any decent parent.
[2:47:41] I agree.
[2:47:44] So he cannot have credibility. Fatherhood is not formed by screwing, it's formed by earning. you earn it.
[2:47:58] You don't just nut in some woman and gain the magical title of father you have to earn it you have to earn it and your father not only has not earned it he's I think I think it's fair to say actively destroyed it on a regular basis, absolutely so the only credibility I think that he would have, the only thing the only credibility yeah i don't i don't think he would have any credibility in in this situation or any situation and so the only credibility he would have is in the word father and the emotionally charged word father yeah i'm sorry to quote this shark in Finding Nemo, right? But the sociopathic shark in Finding Nemo sobs in deep Australian tones of despair. I never knew my father. And it's like, well, if you never knew your father, he wasn't your father. If your father never told you the truth really, he wasn't your father. If your father put you down, he wasn't your father. If your father insulted you, he wasn't your father.
[2:49:20] He was a sperm donor slash bully that you were unfortunately yoked to through accidental biological circumstances, ABC, accidental biological circumstances.
[2:49:35] Yeah.
[2:49:36] My mother was not maternal. Well, with the exception that when I was ill, she could be quite nice because I was not any kind of ego threat to her. so if you right, that which tortures us is almost always the result of the avoidance of legitimate suffering now you have legitimate suffering with your parents and the way that we avoid suffering is through hope, right I mean you've seen this uh, cliche in in medical dramas you know the the doctor is like trying to revive someone that he really cares about and he keeps trying for too long and it's always to say the nurse has to be doctor he's gone and then some cold voice time of death 4 22 a.m you know whatever it is they like and the doctor has to be sort of led away that the doctor is upset or cries because he's finally accepted that the person is gone right yeah so he keeps on doing the cpr or the chest compressions or whatever for too long because he wants to avoid the suffering of knowing the person is dead.
[2:50:52] And hope is a way of avoiding legitimate suffering i'm not a big fan of hope as you can tell, so you hope for things with your parents maybe not your mom but certainly your father right We talked about that earlier. You had a good, deep, masculine passion about that, which is good. But... there's no evidence that your father can have any good relationships. He's been married three times, he's alienated your brother, he's alienated you. He's screaming at babies, like he does, he's not capable, he cannot have good relationships. And there's nothing you can do, to give him that power, that ability. You can't do anything. You're absolutely helpless. In the same way that I was helpless to get my sunglasses back. I'm sorry to take your emotional agony compared to a pair of sunglasses from many years ago, but you cannot fix him, because you can fix something that is broken, right? If your car gets a flat, you can jack it up and put a new tire on, right?
[2:52:21] Yeah.
[2:52:22] But if your car gets hit by a nuclear weapon, you can't fix it, right? If your car gets squished into one of those tiny cubes by one of those giant machines, you can't fix it, right? You can't unfold it.
[2:52:37] No.
[2:52:38] You can't fix people. you can fix people who have problems if they're aware of it and come to you for help. And, you know, you have some idea what to say, which, you know, I think most people have pretty good advice about this stuff. So you can fix people who have problems, know they have problems, and come to you for help. And even that's pretty rare. But if all of that happens and then they continue to work it, blah, blah, blah, right? But you cannot fix people, who are problems. You can fix people who have problems. You can't fix people who are problems. You can fix people who feel bad about lying and come to you for help. You can't fix people who don't feel bad about lying, but only feel bad if they're caught, because it doesn't work, and then just shift to another lie.
[2:53:36] Yeah.
[2:53:40] So, hope is a narcoleptic fantasy that drugs us from legitimate suffering. acceptance, of who your father is and who your father is not. And with all of the empirical evidence that you have and the serenity of knowing you can't fix him. Because he doesn't even think he's broken. He thinks everyone else is broken.
[2:54:16] Of course. That reason.
[2:54:18] Right. And the fact that he would well i don't know where is all this coming from how could you how could you had a great childhood like the fact that he wouldn't even and then you know well i've i've had regrets you know like i mean it's all just so it's such a contradictory maze there's no exit there's no entrance it's just fog and like lower intestine nonsense and you can't you can't fix him, and it's painful sorry go ahead.
[2:54:50] I was going to say yeah and even if I try to argue with him it's going to be just constant fog you know I know that for a fact.
[2:54:59] Interactions with him are never designed to fix him but only break you, hmm.
[2:55:13] And since he is Fogg, his goal is to destroy your perceptiveness, to spin you round and round as he was trying to in that conversation in the role play. Up is down, black is white, contradictions, constant changing of topics, blaming you, insults followed by, um, like, and that's why I had to keep repeating that question at the beginning. Is it good parenting to see your child two days out of two weeks? And he just kept not answering the question. I just had to keep repeating it.
[2:55:47] Well i had to work it's like no lots of parents lots of dads who work who see their kids half the time yeah or at least more than one two days out of two weeks so he's he's not to blame for anything, it's everybody else's fault and anybody who criticizes him is just an asshole who needs to be hung up on i mean you can't work with that honestly could you i mean if somebody's 400 pounds and they say well you're the fat one i'm perfectly healthy and then when you try and drag them on a scale they they start punching you can can you get that person to lose weight no so so that's all i'm saying you tried to bring some or i tried to bring as you some reason and facts to your dad and it's just gaslighting and fogging. And we have this fantasy that we can break through that to the real person within, right?
[2:56:48] Yeah, that's what I had.
[2:56:49] Yeah, there is no real person within. Now, it may be if you have a conversation with your dad or if the role play was enough, it may be that your dad tells you to F off and hangs up. um and you know i mean people lose their temper and then what you're supposed to do is call back and say you know what that was i'm that was out of line i'm so sorry take a deep breath for me let's start again i really want to hear what what your issues are, I mean, if you made a complaint at a pizza store, they wouldn't treat you like that.
[2:57:29] No.
[2:57:31] Oh, yeah, you're bad pizza. It's like, what? Like, that would just, like, so you expect to get better treatment from people who claim to love you and care about you than you would from some random customer service agent at a cell phone company, right? So they wouldn't tell you to fuck off and hang up on you.
[2:57:48] Okay.
[2:57:50] So I don't want to keep rambling if I've sort of made my case. What do you think?
[2:57:55] No you this is why i called you man because before i decided to go through that because luckily i did because who knows what it would have happened i don't think i would have gone through with it anyways yeah.
[2:58:08] But you would have blamed yourself and it would have continued to torture right.
[2:58:10] That's right that's why when i had that moment before i was going to call in like how i just completely dissociated from like reality right i was like this is not if it if it's making me feel like this then what am i actually trying to get out of by talking to him like i'm just setting myself up to lose you know like yes yes it's yeah i think it's it is true that it makes sense about the hope and how i'm trying to use that to avoid suffering yes just the grieving the grieving will pass for sure yeah yeah i don't know how i'm going to go with grieving i don't know if i just need to cry it out or what's just or just to see.
[2:58:56] You know can't fix them can't fix them can't fix them not my fault can't fix them can't fix them not my fault that just that mantra and you know yeah there'll be some tears there'll be some anger but there won't be hope because the hope keeps you tied to that sinking ship.
[2:59:14] Think of all the people.
[2:59:16] Who hoped the titanic wasn't going to sink.
[2:59:20] That's it that's a good that's a good way to think all right.
[2:59:22] Man well it's uh 1 10 a.m here so i'm gonna get the hell to bed oh no no it's fine no problem i appreciate that i appreciate the call and uh uh will you keep me posted about how things are going oh.
[2:59:36] Absolutely mate i will do thank you once again you're a lifesaver mate.
[2:59:40] You're welcome brother keep me posted great call take care.
[2:59:43] Take care bro.
[2:59:45] Bye bye.
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