0:00 - Awakening to the Desire for Family
2:39 - The Impact of Upbringing
4:02 - Childhood Memories and Family Dynamics
8:49 - Confronting Trauma and Family Secrets
14:35 - Exploring Allegations of Abuse
30:33 - The Complexity of Family Relationships
44:04 - The Weight of Expectations
50:47 - Reflecting on Past Relationships
1:03:26 - Navigating Emotional Turmoil
1:24:51 - Generational Patterns of Abuse
1:25:25 - Emotional Honesty vs. Moral Judgment
1:28:37 - Confronting Family Dynamics
1:41:47 - The Consequences of Deception
2:14:35 - Moving Forward with Honesty
In this episode, a caller shares her personal journey related to family dynamics, relationships, and the pressures of societal expectations, particularly regarding marriage and motherhood. At age 20, she was idealistic about family life, motivated by concerns about declining birth rates and a strong desire to embrace her biological destiny as a future mother. However, she finds herself at 30, unmarried and childless, reflecting on a five-year relationship that ended just before an engagement, which has since left her with feelings of confusion, guilt, and self-hatred.
The discussion dives into her upbringing, which she describes as mostly happy, but shadowed by the complexities of parental backgrounds marked by trauma. Her parents, both from broken homes, aimed to create a different environment for their children. However, a significant conflict arose at age 15 with her brother. The fallout from this conflict escalated into a year-long silence between them, sparking deeper familial tensions. She recounts how her parents, traumatized by their own childhood experiences, struggled to manage this conflict, amplifying her feelings of isolation.
The caller reveals the complexity of her family's dynamics, particularly regarding her maternal grandfather, who has been credibly accused of sexual abuse. She explains the struggle her mother experienced growing up under his abusive behavior, and how her mother's psychological scars influenced her parenting. The conversation touches on the general avoidance in her family of confronting unpleasant truths, leading to a culture of silence that failed to protect her from repeating cycles of dysfunction.
As their conversation deepens, Stefan highlights a troubling pattern of lying and obfuscation in the caller's life. The caller admits she often withheld the truth in her relationship with Bob, her boyfriend, compromising her authenticity out of fear of conflict and disappointment. Their relationship is characterized by manipulation, where she felt obligated to appease Bob's moods, including sexual intimacy driven more by his needs than her own desires. She reflects on how, despite her discomfort, she prioritized maintaining harmony over her own well-being.
Stefan prompts the caller to evaluate the morality of her choices, including the impact of her family history on her relationship decisions. She recognizes her tendencies to avoid confrontation, both with her boyfriend and her grandparents, as detrimental to her emotional health. Despite her admitted mistakes, she grapples with feelings of despair about her future—particularly her ability to have children, given societal pressures and familial expectations.
Stefan encourages her to recognize the difference between feeling lost and reclaiming agency in her life. He challenges her to move beyond her current mindset and to take actionable steps towards honesty and accountability in her relationships. They discuss the importance of confronting her family's toxic legacy while reassessing her stance toward motherhood and marriage.
The episode closes with a sense of hope, as Stefan emphasizes that it’s never too late to change direction and pursue a fulfilling life. By embracing truthfulness and self-reflection, the caller can break free from cycles of self-doubt and disappointment, allowing her to forge new paths towards meaningful connections in her future.
[0:00] I started listening to your show at age 20. I was already dead set on my desire to get married and have children, but my commitment to having kids was significantly amplified by listening to your show and becoming aware of the birth rate decline epidemic. I was ideologically committed to the idea of having kids, not only to carry on Western values through my progeny, but also as a part of my biological destiny. to me. I considered my fertility to be a sacred gift that should not be wasted. 20-year-old me would be horrified to know that 30-year-old me is childless and unmarried. I was in a five-year relationship from age 20 to 25 that imploded just before our nascent engagement. The end of that relationship has left me in a five-year wilderness of confusion, guilt, and self-hatred. I am evaluating the role that my upbringing has had on my life choices, questioning deeply how I was raised, and fighting back against an extremely toxic and antinatalist culture.
[1:12] Sadly, I have even encountered antinatalism from my own family. Grandparents, parents, and aunts are pressuring me to surrender my ambitions to have children. Even the Christian community has been unsupportive of what I consider to be my biological destiny, and I've never felt so betrayed in all my life. I wake up every day confused about how I ended up childless and unmarried at 30, going over and over in my mind the actions and decisions that I made that led me to ruin my life, but I just can't make sense of it. I struggle to compose a coherent narrative that makes sense of the last 10 years of my life and I'm hoping that Stefan can help me cut through the fallacies I am holding on to so that I can understand my own story, although I think it's too late for me to be saved I'm hoping that my story can be a warning to other young women, so they can avoid the mistakes that I made I would so greatly appreciate Stefan's insights Thank you.
[2:21] Very brave. I appreciate you reaching out. I wouldn't have minded if it had been a little while ago, but I would not say that you are beyond hope in any way, shape, or form. You're only 30. You're only 30. So all is not lost. All is far from lost. I guarantee you that.
[2:39] But I appreciate us having the opportunity to chat today. All right. Boy, there's a lot to unpack. I will let you take the lead. What do you want to talk about first?
[2:51] Um i guess uh too.
[2:53] Late it's my choice no i'm kidding.
[2:55] Uh that's a good question i don't completely know where to start i want to ask you what you have questions about first well.
[3:04] Let's uh start at the very good being and start at the very beginning a.
[3:08] Very good place to start uh childhood um it was actually pretty happy It was pretty idyllic. I kind of thought of myself as the happiest kid in the world. I had two pretty good parents. They came from very broken homes, and they wanted to make a happy home, not a broken home. um and uh and the sorry um the first big tragedy was i got into a very bad fight with my brother, uh we didn't speak for a year and sorry what age this was at 15.
[4:01] Didn't speak for a year.
[4:03] Yeah i'm not sure if that's relevant to everything else that's pretty relevant i mean i like how we skipped skipped.
[4:12] From like fetus to 15 in one giant evil kenevil.
[4:16] But uh should i flesh out my parents a little bit would you like to know about their back okay my dad um came from a broken home his dad was an alcoholic very sad um like fights and hit my grandma at one point and a divorce. And my dad's parents actually did reconcile when they were older. Their story was kind of beautiful at the end. There was a lot of forgiveness and reconciliation.
[4:55] My mom's, oh, and he got sober, very importantly. My grandpa got sober, and then there was a lot of healing in my dad's side of the family. My dad was raised Catholic, if that's important. My mom's story is way more complicated. She also came from a very broken home, probably even darker than my dad's. um her dad was a pastor if you can believe it and a very bad man um, Probably had borderline narcissistic personality disorder, verbally abusive, hit one of his daughters as an adult, and hit one of his daughters when she was a baby, and tried to pretend to be an upstanding man and lead a church body. His dark character came out, and he lost his job as a pastor and lost his marriage.
[6:05] Sorry, what aspects? I mean, sometimes, I mean, when it comes to hitting children, a lot of churches are fine with that. So, were there other aspects? So, what were the major things that you think contributed to this?
[6:18] My maternal grandpa had an affair with a woman at the church and it came out and he was kicked off of the board I guess so the.
[6:30] Fact that he hit his kids.
[6:31] Was okay but.
[6:33] He had an affair which was not.
[6:36] Yeah I don't want to put words.
[6:38] In your mouth I just want to make sure I understand the value structure here.
[6:41] Totally agree yeah, um Um, and, um, anyway, my mom, uh, she, um, met my dad and they had a strong understanding that they came from painful homes and they didn't want to recreate that. Um, and for the most part, it seemed like they did. I have a twin sister, my best friend, the younger brother, three years younger than me. And we got along very well. Other families would comment that they wish that their kids would get along as well as us. And then I got, my brother made a... He made a joke about me being raped, and I slapped him.
[7:38] You made a joke? What do you mean you made a joke? Tell me more.
[7:43] I was talking about a boy that I liked, and he made a very, it was unusual for him, a very awful, off-color joke saying, like, did he rape you? In a taunting way.
[8:04] Did this come out of nowhere for you, or had there been other problems with him?
[8:14] That felt like it came out of nowhere. Our relationship was struggling a little bit, and I will take some blame for that. I wasn't horrible, but I was a bit of a bitchy teenager. A little insecure. here freshman in high school and i felt like my brother was a different place in life a little more immature and i was kind of a.
[8:42] And sorry how old he was.
[8:43] Three years younger he was probably.
[8:46] He's 12 yeah.
[8:48] He was only 12 did.
[8:50] He have um unfettered or uncontrolled access to the internet.
[8:58] Um it not unfettered but yeah we had the internet and i'm sure you could go on late at night if you wanted to and look up whatever you wanted.
[9:07] Okay and did your parents have any discussions with you about the dangers of online pornography um.
[9:15] Growing up as a christian that's important we grew up christians um.
[9:20] Oh no i'm aware of that i just i assumed that they would then have this talk oh.
[9:24] Yeah um porn is bad and that was no secret in our family.
[9:30] Right i mean making rape jokes i i don't want to you know unless something really bad happened to him uh sexually he was assaulted or or molested in some manner i would assume that that kind of incredibly cold and horrible humor would come out of the internet or other or materials he may May have been exposed to. I could be completely wrong. That would be my first guess.
[9:56] Yeah. I should probably just ask him. He may not even remember why he said or what he said.
[10:04] No, but he would remember if he had early access to the darker sides of the internet and pursued that. So he made this joke and you hit him and then you didn't speak with him for a year?
[10:18] Yeah.
[10:19] And what did your parents do?
[10:22] Um, they were a bit cowardly about the situation. First of all, they were heartbroken. Like, it ripped them apart, their parents. Because I screamed at my brother. And he was crying. And I was hysterical. Because I just, that's how much I hated his comment. Um, and they should have taken us to family counseling. But they didn't. And my dad scolded my brother. Um, but it, my fight with my brother triggered their trauma and they've told me that it was deeply disturbing for them to watch their kids fight. It made them feel like they were little kids again, watching their parents scream at each other.
[11:13] Right.
[11:15] Yeah. My mom lost like five pounds and didn't sleep for a few weeks.
[11:21] Right, right. That's a lot to put on a 12-year-old. Right? I mean, he's 12, and he said something sort of cold or unfeeling or heartless.
[11:37] But he's 12. Yeah.
[11:41] So why do you think there was this kind of reaction?
[11:44] Action and he's.
[11:47] A boy you know i don't want to you know.
[11:48] They also mature.
[11:49] A little slower than girls at that stage of life or quite a bit um.
[11:53] I um i was dealing with some gender wars in my heart at the time um i had been reading um particularly parts of the old testament were very, disturbing to me. And I felt like women were treated really badly by Old Testament patriarchs. And I was learning about sex for the first time around age 12. And I didn't like the biological role that women play, And I was very sensitive to topics about rape.
[12:52] Okay. And did you have any sense of how your parents managed it with regards to your brother?
[13:06] Clarify?
[13:07] Well, what did they do, given that he did this?
[13:12] They didn't do oh my mom did take me to counseling, and it didn't go well i screamed her um, and we didn't attempt counseling after that you screamed at the counselor no i screamed at my mother but.
[13:37] During counselor right during sorry during counseling think.
[13:39] Yeah yeah and.
[13:42] What do you um you sound quite quite emotional about this and what do you what do you feel about this now.
[13:49] My oh this is the, um intense part of the story my mom had concerns that my rage was um rooted in sexual abuse from her father.
[14:08] From her father?
[14:10] Yeah.
[14:10] Your sexual abuse from her father?
[14:13] I don't think I was abused by her father. And I've thought about this seriously. I've asked myself, do I think I was abused?
[14:18] Oh, sorry. What do you mean? I'm confused.
[14:21] Oh, did I say your father?
[14:22] What do you mean? My grandpa. You have some memory, but you're not sure. Did it come out of nowhere? No, no, no. Help me.
[14:28] No. Well, I don't, I firmly, I don't believe that I was sexually molested by my grandpa.
[14:35] No, but why would this even come up as a question?
[14:38] Yep, I can answer that. Because my grandpa has been credibly accused of sexual abuse.
[14:49] Oh.
[14:50] Yeah.
[14:52] By who?
[14:54] His daughters.
[14:57] Oh, gosh. I'm so sorry.
[14:59] I know. Yeah. Not my mom. The family is mostly confused and a bit undecided on do we believe these allegations or not. But I think everyone finds them to be credible, even though it's a mystery that he will take to his grave, because we don't believe that he's honest enough to tell us the truth if he did it. No.
[15:26] Oh, he's not dead, okay.
[15:29] He's not dead. He lives in the same city as me.
[15:32] Okay. And did your mother have any issues that way with him?
[15:40] My mom has racked her brain trying to figure out if he ever molested her yeah she doesn't think so.
[15:49] I trying to think like what does it mean she doesn't think so.
[15:56] Uh you're familiar with suppressed memories uh.
[16:00] Yes yes i am.
[16:01] Yeah. The accusers say that they had suppressed memories that they discovered in adulthood.
[16:13] Well, but I'm obviously no particular expert on this, but on suppressed memories, it all comes flooding back. I don't know, again, I'm no expert, but what would it mean to say that there are these suppressed memories, and then they don't really come back in any kind of big flood or anything?
[16:35] I don't know, Stefan, I've read up on suppressed memories, or what do they call it, when, maybe I'm saying the wrong words, you know, in the 80s, there was a huge explosion of people having supposedly buried memories.
[16:53] Yeah, suppressed memories, I think buried memories, that kind of stuff, right?
[16:57] I've read up on that. I think the research is shaky. I'm not sure that I believe it, but I'm not sure that I don't. um i think it's strange that sexual trauma seems to be the only trauma that people report that they suppressed and then like suddenly remember decades later well i mean i'm no expert either but.
[17:20] I would find it more credible if it is something that you know you've always had a problem and then maybe under therapy it all kind of comes flooding back and you remember it clearly if it's like still vague hints around maybe the edge of whatever then it is not proof beyond a reasonable doubt like in in the court of her own mind.
[17:41] Yeah one of my grandpa's accusers his daughter is very sadly dead died of a brain tumor um there's some speculation that the brain tumor played in her memories but the other accuser is living so, this happened during the late 80s and i know that there was some um uh questionable trends in psychotherapy where it does and some not super ethical therapists.
[18:19] In my humble an amateur opinion, not super ethical therapists who were pushing this a little bit.
[18:27] Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I guess my point is simply that there's been allegations against my grandpa. We know that he's a very bad person. So we're not sure. We can't say with confidence that he didn't abuse his daughters. Right.
[18:50] And, of course, he denies it all.
[18:53] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay.
[18:56] All right. And your mom doesn't have any sort of clear and specific memories of what happened?
[19:02] No memories of being abused sexually, but a lot of verbal abuse.
[19:10] Oh, no, I get that, but I'm in terms of the sexual abuse, right? She has no particular memories or clarity with regards to that, right?
[19:18] None. And neither does his oldest daughter, my aunt. Right.
[19:24] Well i mean i i don't want to make ghosts where there aren't ghosts that's my particular thing yeah and so we'll we'll take that at your mom's memory value or face value if that makes if that makes sense.
[19:38] For sure okay all.
[19:40] Right um and so with regards to your brother there was this concern but he has no memory of that either is that right.
[19:50] Uh do you mean if my brother thinks he was actually abused yes uh you know i've never asked him um he's never alleged um, to i and the only people that have alleged abuse have been girl women and girls so i i don't think my grandpa's into boys.
[20:15] No it wouldn't necessarily be with your grandfather father it could be i mean anywhere okay um.
[20:22] Yeah i my brother has never i.
[20:25] Mean it's such a messed up thing so it's just such a messed up thing to say to your sister, yeah i think it would be it would be strange if i mean that has to come from somewhere that level of, inappropriateness that level of coldness that that absolutely having no idea how what you're saying or seeming to have absolutely no idea how what you're saying would land for someone else.
[20:54] I know that my brother wasn't at all aware of my internal gender war taking place in my heart.
[21:01] No, but there's no place where rape jokes are good, right?
[21:05] For sure.
[21:08] And so he didn't have enough bond with you. And again, 12 is young, right? So we give him, I think we can cut him. I would personally cut him some slack with regards to that. So 12 is young, and I guess, you know, sometimes maybe someone could blow down something that harsh. But you punched him.
[21:31] Slapped him, yeah.
[21:32] Slapped him. Sorry, you slapped him.
[21:34] Yeah.
[21:35] Now, why do you think that was the response, as opposed to, oh my gosh, what you said really, really hurt and upset me. What's going on?
[21:45] This is absurd, but this is how I felt at the time. I felt raped by that comment.
[21:59] Go on.
[22:03] In that moment, it was like my brother became the enemy. And at the time, I just, I really hated rapists. I had no sexual abuse of my own to draw from, but I, had mixed feelings about men in general and it was like he became the bad guy with that one comment.
[22:32] And was your grandfather around much the one who's been accused, right? Was your grandfather around much in your childhood?
[22:40] It this is where you're gonna have a lot to say the answer is yes and it's around when did the accusations.
[22:54] Of sexual abuse first arise.
[22:58] You know i don't know but i think in the late 90s okay.
[23:05] So like more than 25 years ago probably right.
[23:09] Yeah. Okay.
[23:11] So when you were five, your parents knew that your grandfather had been credibly abused of sexual molestation of his children, right?
[23:22] Yeah. Okay.
[23:25] And they also knew that he had a history of verbal abuse, which your mother, it was your mother's father, right, which your mother herself directly remembered.
[23:34] Yeah.
[23:35] Well, you know my next question. my next question.
[23:44] I'm sorry I don't.
[23:46] Well why the ever-loving heck would you allow such a person to be around your children.
[23:53] I have no idea why she's made that decision.
[23:58] Well, that's not true, and you can try that if you want, but you've been listening for 10 years. Of course you know. You may not know consciously, but you know. I mean, you've known your parents for 30 years, 25 conscious, 28 conscious, whatever, right? So you know everything there is to know about them. I mean, if you can't know your parents, you can't know anyone, right?
[24:17] Yeah.
[24:18] So let's theorize. We don't have her on the line, but why would she allow a known and accused, a known verbal abuser, a man who cheated, lost his ministry, and was, as you say, credibly accused of sexual abuse, why on earth would she allow such a man around her children, and in particular, her daughters? Because you have a twin, right?
[24:44] Yeah. Mm-hmm. And maybe she loves her dad. She shouldn't.
[24:57] I'm sorry, how long have you been listening for? Could you remind me?
[25:01] Ten years. Okay.
[25:03] Can you love someone who's cruel and possibly molesty towards children?
[25:11] No. Okay.
[25:13] Did your father, sorry, did your grandfather, he's never repented even of the verbal abuse, is that right?
[25:20] He's repented of the verbal abuse, but nobody takes his apologies seriously.
[25:28] Okay, so not really, right?
[25:30] Yeah.
[25:31] Okay, so he is a relatively unrepentant child abuser. So why would your mother and your father, because your father would be the head of the household, right, Christian style? yeah okay so why would your father fail to protect his children from a known child abuser.
[25:57] Do they not believe that it's very bad i don't know do they i mean my.
[26:03] Dad sorry i'm sorry to interrupt but i don't think so because they said that they wanted to have a different upbringing and they rejected the abuse that they had suffered and vowed to improve right, so they knew that it was bad they knew that it was so bad that they had to completely reform how how the family treated children in every way, right? So, why would they continue to have him around?
[26:41] I don't know.
[26:42] But you do. But you do. And I'm not, obviously, I'm not accusing you of bearing false witness at all. I'm not saying that you have it and you're hiding it from me. But you do know. Because otherwise, you can know your husband for 30 years and not have a clue about his basic motives, right? Like, you would have absorbed everything about your parents growing up.
[27:07] There's nothing you don't know about.
[27:08] You probably know your parents better than they know themselves.
[27:14] I think they've learned to live with cognitive dissonance.
[27:20] No, but why? Why would they want to? Okay, let me put it this way. What were their morals or what were their moral standards around this, do you think?
[27:31] Clarify?
[27:33] Well, there must be some belief that they would have about your grandfather that would have him around. Maybe the belief is everybody deserves a chance at repentance, or forgiveness is what we do, it's not what the other person earns, or you don't turn your back on family, or family above everything, or honor their mother and their father. or like there had to be some moral standard behind which they would make this decision.
[28:05] Honor their father and mother.
[28:08] Honor their mother and their father okay yeah okay now the fact that they decided to do pretty much the polar opposite, of their parents meant that they had to recognize that their parents did wrong in some way right yeah, And they also know that God himself does not forgive an unrepentant soul, right?
[28:32] Right.
[28:33] They also know that the Bible commands us very clearly, and it doesn't say that there's an exemption for parents, but the Bible commands us very clearly on how to deal with a hostility, difference of opinion, and in particular a moral problem with someone is you talk to that person privately, and if they don't listen, you talk to them with a small group, and if they don't listen, you talk to them with the entire congregation, And if they still don't listen, you kick their butt to the curb.
[28:59] Right.
[29:02] I mean, I'm not a theologian, but that's right there in the Bible.
[29:08] Right.
[29:10] So did they, do you know if they confronted him? Do you know if they said, listen, you're going to have to apologize and get treatment, right? Right. And, and get, get help with your, your issues and find some way to get grace, peace and love in your heart and, and all of that. Right. I'm sorry, you've gone kind of quiet for me?
[29:36] I'm positive that my dad has never confronted his father-in-law. I know that my mom has confronted him about the verbal abuse. I don't know if she's confronted him about the sexual allegations.
[29:57] Okay. And when did your mother confront him, to your knowledge, about the verbal abuse?
[30:05] On more than one occasion but she told me a story once about when we were, 10 years old approximately playing in the yard she was sitting on the porch with her dad and she just looked at him and said you know you really scared me when you would scream at us, and he just, didn't look at her and didn't apologize.
[30:33] Sorry, he just what?
[30:35] He made a little...
[30:37] Okay, so that's not a confrontation, that's a comment.
[30:42] Yeah. Okay.
[30:44] And you were how old at that point?
[30:49] Don't know, but we were little kids playing in the yard. Okay.
[30:53] So, I mean, it's been probably 20, 25 years, right?
[30:58] Yeah.
[30:58] And is that the extent your father has never done it and your mother made a comment with no consequences?
[31:09] I don't know when she last confronted her dad. I have no idea.
[31:14] No, no, but this is all you know of, right?
[31:15] Yes.
[31:16] And you didn't witness it yourself, but this is what she told you.
[31:20] Okay.
[31:22] Are there other child abusers in the environment that you know of outside of, well, I mean, your grandfather, is your grandmother still alive on that side?
[31:33] Yes, she is.
[31:34] So she would be a co-abuser, right?
[31:39] Well, they're not married anymore. They're divorced. Right.
[31:46] Um, sorry, when did they, how old, when did they get divorced?
[31:51] My maternal grandpa and my maternal grandma divorced in the, I think the early 90s.
[31:59] Okay, so your parents were grown by then.
[32:02] Right.
[32:03] So she was a co-abuser. What am I missing here? She was a co-abuser with your grandfather when your parents were their children. Right.
[32:18] She did not protect her children. She failed her children.
[32:21] No, no. Co-abuser. She chose a verbally abusive man. She chose to date him, to get engaged, to marry him, to give him children, and she kept those children there. That's a co-abuser. She's not a victim. She's not on the side. She's not even 49%. She's 50-50.
[32:41] Right. Can I just interject one important part of the story? Oh, yeah, yeah.
[32:47] It's your story.
[32:50] So, you're right. It is bewildering why she would marry a verbally abusive person.
[32:56] No, I didn't say it was bewildering. I just said she was a co-abuser, and then you said, but she got divorced long after the kids were grown, so that doesn't matter.
[33:05] Yeah. She insists that he had no signs of abuse for the entire courtship. When they dated, she swears that he was the nicest guy.
[33:23] Of course she does. I mean, of course she does. Everybody does. everybody does that is the most common response it is predictable a sunrise and you know why.
[33:40] They want to cover for themselves.
[33:43] Yeah they don't want to be held accountable every single like this is particularly true for women men have their own defenses of course right, but every woman in the known universe who's abused has the same story well you know he was was absolutely wonderful never did anything wrong never had any hint of it his family is perfect he was perfect and then after we got married and after we had kids he just changed, okay everybody says the same thing and it's it's absolute fiction in every single i mean i've talked to of course hundreds of people about this which is not exactly scientific but just Just logically, it's impossible.
[34:29] Character is character.
[34:30] Personalities don't just change. I mean, when we look at how difficult it is for us to change ourselves, right, then for evildoers to just perfectly mimic absolute virtue, and not just themselves, but their entire family history. He must have come from a messed up family, your grandfather.
[34:50] Horrific.
[34:51] Horrific family. And your grandmother knew that. She met them. She knew them. She met them. She had a chance to cross-examine his entire family. I'm sure that his entire family is completely messed up. And that's the red flag. Even if he was somehow perfect, then you have to ask the question, well, if he came from a family that's this messed up, how can he be perfect without a massive amount of work?
[35:17] Right. Right? Yeah.
[35:20] So it's a lie. It's a lie. It's a lie. And even if we accept that it's not a lie, then the moment he abused the kids, she had to put her foot down and protect her children or get out with the kids. So she divorced him after the kids were grown, right?
[35:45] Yeah.
[35:45] So she was capable of leaving him, just not at a time that would have protected her children. That's contemptible.
[35:54] Yeah.
[35:56] Well, I can't stand living with him, but you kids were five. You were fine to live with him.
[36:03] Yeah.
[36:04] I couldn't handle him when I was 40 or 50, but your kids could handle him when you were five or 10.
[36:11] Right.
[36:13] And do people believe this stuff?
[36:17] He hit her first baby.
[36:21] Right. He hit the baby. And she stayed.
[36:27] Yeah. It's a really ugly story.
[36:34] I'm happy to hear the story. Well, I'm not happy, but I will hear the story if you like.
[36:40] It was their first baby together. She was fussy and screaming and crying like babies do. Well, not really.
[36:54] Babies are not. they're not innately fussy and cry I mean fussy a little bit but they don't innately cry and scream my daughter certainly didn't but that's because we were emotionally available and comforted her whenever she needed it, but if you have an abusive weird tense messed up household then the kids get that tension and they cry more but I just want to point out it's you know I'm not saying you're but the slander against babies oh they just cry and scream and fuss and it's like no no they don't, they do when there's messed up emotions around or there's indifference or coldness or tension or right they sense all of that but i just wanted to sort of point that out but sorry go ahead.
[37:31] It's a really interesting point thank you um uh she was trying to get undressed out of a you know, 50s um sunday best outfit so that she could feed the baby breastfeed the baby and uh my grandpa had the baby and she wouldn't stop screaming and he spanked her so hard that it left a mark that the mark was so red that my grandma um i just something about she didn't want other ladies from church to see it.
[38:08] So her first concern was her reputation yeah, Okay, so that's a terrible story for her, like her response. But I suppose everyone's just mad at the granddad, right?
[38:29] I mean, personally, I'm infuriated that she didn't leave him. I've always, ever since I first heard that story, I kind of disgusted with my grandma for not calling the police.
[38:45] Okay so your grandmother stayed and is her argument that he was an absolutely perfectly wonderful gentleman never had a hint of temper or dysfunction and then just out of nowhere he just beats the kid the baby um.
[39:00] Yes she says that he held it together perfectly right up until they got married and she said it was almost instantly after the honeymoon moon that she saw his ugly angry temper.
[39:15] Right and by then she was already pregnant right.
[39:21] I don't know.
[39:22] Well i mean i'm the catholic right so i assume that there was no birth control on the honeymoon yeah.
[39:29] They're protestant by the way i'm not sure if that matters but.
[39:32] Oh no that matters yeah and monty python taught me all about that okay all right so um well okay how long do you Do you know how long after they got married they started having babies?
[39:45] I don't.
[39:47] Well, um...
[39:47] Soon. Well, no, but I mean.
[39:49] It's important, because if he was violent on the honeymoon, and then she decided to have a baby with him after that, that's a different matter, right?
[40:01] Yeah, he wasn't violent, but he was verbally abusive.
[40:05] Okay, but if he was abusive, okay, if he was abusive on the honeymoon, and then she decided to go ahead with the marriage, she could have got it annulled, right? Right. But you decided to go ahead with the marriage and give him children. Right.
[40:18] Yeah. Right. Yeah.
[40:20] So she's, I mean, even, even if we accept all of this or all of what she says to be true, she's still a hundred percent responsible and a co-abuser because she delivered children to an abuser and kept them in the household.
[40:35] Yeah. Right.
[40:36] Like if I buy a dog and then it starts biting my family and, and the dog, it's perfectly nice for the first month. and then I bite, the dog starts biting my children, biting my family, and I keep the dog, and the dog keeps biting, do I get to say to my kids when they're in the hospital, no, no, but the dog was perfectly nice for the first month. The heck would that have to do with anything? So she's a liar.
[41:06] Yeah.
[41:07] And she is putting her own ego and defensiveness above that which is healthy for the family, which is an absolute discussion on how the abuse comes to be.
[41:20] Yeah.
[41:25] And how much was your grandmother around when you were a child?
[41:31] Not too much. We saw each other on holidays, mostly. um uh i my grandma became a big part of my life in 2019 when she moved to the same town where me and my parents lived and we went from seeing each other a few times a year to seeing each other all the time sorry.
[41:56] Why why would you see your grandmother mother.
[41:58] I'm sorry say that again sorry.
[42:02] Why would you why would you i mean you knew that she participated in the.
[42:08] Abuse of your parents right the abuse of my mom um your mom sorry yeah yeah, um i i knew yep.
[42:27] Sorry, there was a question in there.
[42:30] Did I? You're asking me, so I chose to...
[42:33] Well, this woman abused your mother, right? Or co-abused your mother, or kept your mother in the house with an abuser, right?
[42:39] Yes.
[42:41] Have you ever confronted her about that in any real way?
[42:45] No.
[42:49] And yet, she's welcome, even though she was significantly... Well, she was co-responsible for the abuse of your mother as a child and the possible sexual assault of your aunts, right?
[43:02] Correct, right.
[43:04] And they're both still welcome in your house?
[43:08] Yes, yeah.
[43:10] I'm not sure why you're calling me. I mean, I clearly haven't had any authority. I'm not being mean. I'm just genuinely baffled. like morality and philosophy and theology and God and the Bible have had no authority in your family for as long as I can see. Right? And certainly, I mean, you're all a born false witness. You all have lied. Avoided having honest conversations. You've drawn no moral boundaries. You've allowed, I mean, your parents and you have allowed abusers into your life, unrepentant abusers into your life. You've never been honest with them or confronted them. You all sweep it under the rug and pretend like nothing happened. So I'm not trying to be harsh. I'm genuinely not. I'm just not quite sure why you'd be calling me.
[44:05] Because it's like if I'm a dietician and you haven't taken my advice for 10 years, despite being really interested, and then you're like 300 pounds, and then you call me, I'm not sure why.
[44:19] And again i'm not trying to be mean i'm just i'm not i'm not sort of following what the conversation is for you you've made your choice right you've made your choice which is you enable and give comfort to unrepentant child abusers and did you is your theory that this is not going to have an effect on the character of your moral life at all like giving aid comfort and and company and resources, and time, and attention, and maybe even money, and food, and like to unrepentant child abusers, they're completely welcome in your life, and nobody says anything to them, really.
[45:00] I know that my grandma feels very guilty about not...
[45:05] No, no, she doesn't, because she's lying. And by lying, she's failing to protect her children and her grandchildren. Because your grandmother needs to look at the red flags so she can tell you guys what to avoid. She is instilling paranoia in her family, and particularly in you. Paranoia. Do you know why?
[45:35] No.
[45:36] Because you can have a completely wonderful guy, but then after he gets married, he just turns into a monstrous nothing-you-can-do. There's no signs. None.
[45:51] If I could just interject, please. um she has talked to me about looking out for the signs of abusive men related to her own experience she's okay maybe i'm mistook i.
[46:04] Don't want to be unfair and i.
[46:05] Apologize if i mistook i thought you.
[46:06] Said that she there was no signs whatsoever until.
[46:10] The after the honeymoon well this is what she says she says that she did not see any signs and there was no verbal abuse she does say that you need to look at the man's family um she says that is the crucial thing that she missed when she was dating him she would have screwed she should have scrutinized the dysfunctional and evil family that he came from okay.
[46:40] So what does that mean.
[46:41] Does that mean that if.
[46:42] Somebody happens to have been born into a bad family you can't date them or marry them? I was born into a bad family. Would I then be off the list? It wasn't my fault.
[46:53] I don't know.
[46:56] So tell me, how is she helping protect you? Right? Because you burned up five years in your 20s in this relationship.
[47:03] Right?
[47:04] Did she help you? Did she help you not burn up like a third if you're a big fertility window?
[47:13] Only a little bit. She did tell me don't sleep with him. and she told me that you need to be with a guy that's a Christian.
[47:26] Okay, I assume that her guy was a Christian who she didn't sleep with before marriage, right? So that's useless advice because she ended up in an abusive relationship, her children got abused, and then she divorced him. So I don't know why saying do what I did helps at all. sorry you're breathing quite heavily into the microphone it might be a little bit close to your mouth or nose so how does she help you how does she help you and your sister and your brother, avoid marrying an abuser now saying well i didn't examine the family, okay but but that means that people who are accidentally born into a bad family normally you then can't date them that seems that the sins of the fathers are not supposed to be visited automatically on the children right right.
[48:23] She didn't say you can't marry somebody from a bad family she did say that you need to look closely at people that come from broken homes.
[48:33] Okay but look closely for what because she said there were no signs look closely for what.
[48:41] I, I've never gotten in-depth help from her.
[48:50] No, no. I'm sorry, because I'm saying she's instilling paranoia by not telling you clearly about the red flags you need to look out for. Now, look out for their family. What does that mean? What does that mean in practical terms?
[49:07] I don't know.
[49:08] So she hasn't helped you. She hasn't given you any clear warning signs or red flags. Now, of course, there were red flags. Without a doubt, there were red flags. But by refusing to admit that there were red flags, she selfishly protects her own, quote, reputation at the expense of refusing to help, her children and her grandchildren, well, her grandchildren avoid that fate, avoid her fate.
[49:39] Oh, that's terrible.
[49:40] That's terrible, terrible behavior. We have to educate our children. No matter how much it hurts us and hurts our ego, that's vanity, right? She doesn't want to say, I was responsible. She won't take responsibility. She won't take accountability. And so she can't have honest conversations about the red flags, because then she'll feel like she did a really bad thing. Why? Because she did a really terrible thing. She did a whole series of really terrible things over decades and continues to do them. Lying and saying there were no red flags is destructive. It continues the abuse. at putting her own preferences above that which is healthy and protective to her children. She's still failing to protect you. She failed to protect her own children. Now she's failing to protect her grandchildren by pretending there's no way to know when there's a psycho abuser on your hands. Until it's too late. Do you understand? It's the same behavior.
[50:47] Okay.
[50:48] No, I don't want to browbeat you. You, I mean, if I'm wrong, let me know, but she's still failing to protect you by not giving you what the red flags were and helping you avoid this situation.
[51:08] All I know is that my story, my relationship problems have been radically different from my parents. And I can't draw many conclusions about what to do in my life based on their lives, because their lives were so different than mine.
[51:29] Sorry, did you say your parents? Do you mean your parents or your grandparents?
[51:33] Well, both.
[51:36] Okay, so I'm certainly happy to hear that. So if you can tell me a little bit about your relationship with the five-year guy.
[51:49] I met a boy in college, and he really liked me, and I didn't really like him back, but I chose to stay in that relationship.
[52:08] Sorry, how did it become a relationship if you didn't like him?
[52:18] I forced myself to stay.
[52:20] Sorry no but that's to stay but how did it even become a relationship if you didn't like him.
[52:25] I i accepted a date with somebody that i never met before we.
[52:31] Met that's fine but the date is not a relationship so you met the guy you went oh you you you you were set up on a blind date you went on a date you didn't like the guy so how did it go further.
[52:42] I had i had mixed feelings i wasn't super attracted to him and i, I'm struggling, Stefan. I don't know why I stayed in this five-year relationship.
[52:58] No, no, I'm asking about the beginning.
[53:01] Oh.
[53:03] So you had mixed feelings. Now, when you say you weren't attracted to him, do you mean his character, his physique, his face? What do you mean? Physically, spiritually, morally, emotionally, in terms of not being attracted, what do you mean? Just at the beginning. We'll figure out the five years later, but just at the beginning.
[53:21] His personality okay.
[53:24] Did you find him physically attractive.
[53:30] Only um a little bit he was conventionally attractive in all the right ways and yet i just never, never felt much attraction and i didn't understand why, Sorry.
[53:48] You didn't at the time, or you still don't?
[53:52] Then and now. Okay.
[53:56] So, he's kind of conventionally handsome, but you didn't particularly like his personality, is that right?
[54:03] Right.
[54:04] And what did you find off-putting about his personality?
[54:09] I felt like he had no personality. I thought he was boring. I felt like we couldn't talk about anything. I was in the heyday. I was in my intellectual heyday. I discovered libertarianism. I discovered your channel. I wanted to gab and gab about lots of subjects. I could talk for hours if you asked me to. My boyfriend had narrow interests, hunting, football. And that was about it.
[54:54] Is he not particularly smart?
[54:57] Very smart, mathematically. I mean, his grades in college were phenomenal. He was a hardworking engineer. I wanted to date an engineer.
[55:08] Sorry, why did you want to date an engineer?
[55:12] I don't know. Because I guess I read a lot of Ayn Rand, and I just thought that...
[55:18] Oh, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it.
[55:20] But I just felt like engineers were, you know, I like their brain. I like that they're smart. I like that they actually do tangible things in the world. They create and design things, whereas finance men, they sit at a desk on a computer. I don't know how to explain it. My dad's an engineer. I just found engineers to be kind of sexy.
[55:50] But not him.
[55:55] A little bit sexy, but I could never muster a big crush on him. Okay.
[56:07] And what about his morals?
[56:12] He was, he'd call himself a Christian. He was raised a Christian. But he's not a deep thinker.
[56:20] So I you're really making me work hard here you know, why do you think that is like all these pauses and all of this you know, distance and so on listen again I'm not trying to be mean or anything if this is not the right time to have this conversation we could have it another time but no i'm not sure how to get you to want to communicate with me i mean you seem to be quite and i do want to but it's just like all of these pauses and i gotta like i'm pulling teeth here it's not easy to have the conversation and i don't want that lack of ease to be to sort of make it impossible for us to communicate if that makes sense.
[57:15] Right um he um, sorry thinking no but.
[57:27] Maybe we should address how.
[57:28] You're feeling before we just plow on like i didn't say anything right yeah okay so what's.
[57:34] Going on with your heart at the moment um because it does seem like you're quite um knotted up uh emotionally or or spiritually and i i'm just not sure i'm not.
[57:45] Saying there's anything wrong.
[57:46] With it i'm just not sure what's going on.
[57:49] I've been in distress for the past five years essentially um i've been i've been very and i've been i've been a lost broken person since the breakup but also before um i, there there were some things in the relationship that were not good there was a time when he He pinched my stomach roll abruptly and said that I was chunky. And then I tried to confront him about it.
[58:23] He said you were chunky?
[58:25] He pinched my stomach roll. Right. This was approximately year one or year two of the relationship. It's been so long I'm beginning to forget. And he called me chunky. And I'd never been called fat by a guy before. for. And I got angry and I confronted him and he didn't offer up an apology. So I stormed out of the house and then he followed up by text with an apology. And I wish that I'd broken up with him.
[58:59] Sorry, let's go back to the beginning. Unless you want to talk about how you're feeling, because again, you seem to be emotionally constipated, or you seem to be kind of knotted up, and maybe we should talk about that before we go on with the narrative.
[59:17] Well, I'm nervous, because I'm being grilled right now, which is what I wanted. I came here to be grilled.
[59:23] I'm not grilling you. I'm talking about your grandmother and your parents.
[59:28] Okay.
[59:28] Have I criticized you about anything other than slapping your brother, which we didn't even really criticize? I mean, maybe I'm mistaken, but I'm not sure that I'm grilling you. I'm being quite empathetic and emphatic about how you weren't protected by your mother and your grandparents, or your parents and your grandparents.
[59:45] Right.
[59:46] But I'm not sure how I'm grilling you.
[59:50] I feel like maybe it was a moral failing to be talking to my grandma as an adult.
[59:58] You see, but you've listened to me for 10 years. This is what's bewildering about this conversation. It's like you're pretending to be a newbie. Now, you don't have to agree with what I say about the perils of having corrupt and destructive people in your life. You don't have to agree with me at all, of course. We could have that debate. I'm eager to be corrected. but it's kind of bizarre because you know what my perspective is emphatically and you seem you're playing all lost lamb and bewildered by this, because this lost lamb bewildered stuff is going to draw predators to you you know being tremulous and weak and uncertain and I that's going to draw dangerous people to you that's how people believe that they can push you around. So that's what I find confusing. And again, I'm not trying to be mean or harsh at all. I'm really trying to connect and be as direct as possible. But when I'm making this case that your parents and your grandparents failed to protect you, I feel like I'm talking to someone who's never heard these arguments before.
[1:01:25] No i i agree it's the worst thing my parents ever did was let me be around my grandpa and it's a moral failing and it's reprehensible of them and i my sister and i say to each other all the time like it was reprehensible that my grandma stayed married to an abusive man and we're were very disgusted by that decision that she made. I just, I mean, I could confront my grandma, but it wouldn't do much.
[1:01:59] Sorry, what do you mean it wouldn't do much?
[1:02:02] She can't go back.
[1:02:03] So are you a consequentialist? Are you like, well, I am only going to tell the truth if I can picture some effect that is positive in some abstract way? Is that what the Bible says? Thou shalt not bear false witness. And is there a little asterisk there? Well, you can lie as much as you want, as long as you can imagine that telling the truth is not going to have some abstract positive consequence. But isn't, I mean, Jesus himself went to the cross and got nailed up. Right? He told the truth. Did he have some abstract positive consequence? consequence.
[1:02:41] I can confront her the next time I see her.
[1:02:44] Well, no, but this is why I'm, confused. I'd like to meet the part of you that listened for ten years. You must have thought I had something of value to say. I mean this with all affection. I really do. I'd like to meet that person. You're trying to give me the impression that I'm sort of pinning you to a corner and lifting you up by your lapels and, you know, and it's like, but but you've listened for 10 years. I don't know why this rubber bones thing is happening.
[1:03:27] I don't know what to say i am all i know is that i've never been hit by a boyfriend um.
[1:03:36] Well no hang on okay so we'll drop that and we'll go back to to the guy can we can we call him bob sure okay yeah okay so you don't find bob to be, interesting he doesn't share your interests in things like philosophy or libertarianism or economics or deeper topics right yeah okay so, um and it's not a criticism i'm genuinely curious why did you keep dating him.
[1:04:08] I because i feel like i because i wanted to get married and have kids and the opportunity came my way. He wasn't perfect. I wasn't crazy about him, but he was, you know, he was able, he had the career to become a dad. I sort of felt honored by the fact that he liked me, even if I didn't like him back as much. And mostly I didn't leave him because I didn't I didn't want to hurt him because I'm so confrontational, averse. I just couldn't bring myself to do the breakup.
[1:04:52] Well, you're not confrontational averse, because I'm sure you had confrontations with your boyfriend over five years, right?
[1:04:59] We had very few arguments, actually.
[1:05:02] Okay. All right. I'll sort of withdraw that then. Okay, so you start dating him, and then you're saying that he pinched your tummy roll and said that you were overweight, or what was the word he used? Chubby?
[1:05:18] Chunky.
[1:05:19] Chunky, okay.
[1:05:20] Chunky, yeah.
[1:05:21] Okay, so he pinches your belly and tells you that you're chunky, right?
[1:05:26] Yep.
[1:05:28] And what's wrong with that? I'm not disagreeing. I mean, maybe it is, maybe it isn't. He didn't belt you or anything. What's wrong with it is that it's hurtful.
[1:05:39] I did not gain weight. I did not gain weight.
[1:05:44] Okay, but were you overweight?
[1:05:45] He gained a lot of weight in the relationship, but I didn't.
[1:05:48] Sorry, hang on. I need to stay with me, or at least stay with the microphone. I know you're getting emotional, and I respect that, and I appreciate that, and I sympathize with that, but I'm trying to understand. So, if he pinches your belly roll and says that you're chunky, I mean, I guess it's not the nicest way, but, I mean, if you are gaining weight, or if he thinks you're gaining weight, it probably is a good thing to say something, right?
[1:06:17] Yeah, absolutely.
[1:06:20] He's an engineer so he's not going to be emotionally sensitive he's going to be kind of concrete and blunt that's what engineers are like right otherwise he'd be a poet or something right no.
[1:06:29] There was there was no there was no reason to pinch my stomach and tell me i was fat.
[1:06:33] No he didn't say no hang on hang on hang on hang on he didn't say fat, he said chunky, Right? Okay, and listen, I'm not disagreeing. I mean, maybe there's a great reason to be upset. But if he thought you had gained some weight, I mean, let's say that you were gaining weight. You say that you weren't. Obviously, I believe you. But if you were gaining weight, he should say something, right? Because you don't want to gain a bunch of weight, and people are noticing, but they don't say anything because you'd rather not gain the weight.
[1:07:12] Right?
[1:07:16] Sure and of course he did it indelicately but he's an engineer engineers are known to be blunt right, so what was so terrible and i'm again i'm perfectly happy to hear and to be schooled and educated but what is so terrible about him maybe playfully grabbing your belly roll and saying you're chunky because.
[1:07:39] It's hurtful i would never have said that to him and he did gain weight.
[1:07:43] Well, why didn't you say something to him? It's not healthy for him to gain weight.
[1:07:48] Because he mentioned all the time that he was gaining weight. And I recommended a fitness class. And his sister got so angry, she couldn't believe that. I would suggest that her brother go to a fitness class.
[1:08:01] How much weight did he gain over the five years?
[1:08:04] Enough that his doctor said, you need to lose weight.
[1:08:08] Okay, how much did he gain over the five years?
[1:08:12] I don't know.
[1:08:14] Okay. Roughly. Come on. Don't make me work this hard. I'm trying to help you. Don't make me do all the work. Roughly. I shouldn't have to ask these questions three or four times. 10 pounds, 50 pounds, 50 pounds. Roughly.
[1:08:28] 20. Sorry? 20 pounds. Probably like 20 pounds.
[1:08:32] Sorry? Sorry? I'm sorry?
[1:08:37] 20 pounds approximately.
[1:08:39] Okay, and how tall is he?
[1:08:44] Approximately six feet.
[1:08:47] Okay, so he gained 20 pounds over five years, and he's six foot tall. So he didn't get fat, and he didn't gain a lot of weight.
[1:08:59] He had a larger belly due to drinking beer daily.
[1:09:03] I get that. But 20 pounds, I mean, it's not great, obviously, but I've talked to people who over five years have put on 100 pounds or more.
[1:09:18] Okay, what's your point?
[1:09:23] I'm trying to understand and i'm very open to this i'm trying to understand, the um very strong emotions that came out of you when he said that you had a belly roll or he said you were chunky because you had a belly roll why why is that so why is that so terrible.
[1:09:48] Calling your girlfriend fat is.
[1:09:50] No no no you have to be accurate stop changing the word stop changing the word to match your feelings because that doesn't help me understand your feelings he called you chunky yeah okay, and you had you had i'm not saying you're fat or chunky but you had a belly roll he could pinch inch, right? I mean, there was an ad when I was a kid, if you can pinch an inch, right? And again, I'm not disagreeing with your emotions, I'm just trying to understand. Why is it so terrible?
[1:10:38] Because he He expressed dissatisfaction with my body.
[1:10:43] Okay, and why can he not do that? What if he was dissatisfied with your body? Should he lie and pretend that that's not true? Should he let you remain unattractive to him, or should he say, I mean, maybe he could have said it more nicely, of course, right? But did you... See, you're feeling very victimized, but it's kind of bullying for you to say to him it's absolutely unacceptable or horrible or abusive or mean or whatever you're saying for you to be dissatisfied with your body but why? What if he is dissatisfied with your body? Why can't he say that? I'm not taking his side just so you understand I'm just genuinely curious, okay fine no no don't get passive-aggressive on me don't get rubber bones i'm happy to be schooled i really am why can't he be dissatisfied with your body.
[1:11:51] He can't just it's the way that you approach a woman's body when you when you talk about a woman's body it's typical that you're nice about it not an asshole about it.
[1:12:05] Okay so he said you were thick and you're calling sorry he said that you were chunky and you're calling him an asshole so you understand that you're much harsher than he is you're much ruder than he is in this instance, right so he was indelicate in expressing his concern over your weight or whatever he felt so he said you're chunky and you respond with asshole you.
[1:12:33] Didn't call him an asshole.
[1:12:35] No you just did in your mind or at least to me just now i didn't say you did it in the moment but you respond in talking about the story he's an asshole for doing that so he calls you chunky, and then you respond by categorizing him as an asshole.
[1:12:56] Siobhan i've been with a man that would never have done that they would have never said that.
[1:13:01] I'm sorry i couldn't can you repeat that i've.
[1:13:04] Been to i've been i dated men that would have never ever pinched my stomach and called me chunky never okay so, i believe that's the.
[1:13:19] Right way so you so he was honest about what he now again was he indelicate absolutely could he phrased it better no question but he was honest about some dissatisfaction he had and you're saying well other men would never have done that well but you chose this guy you chose to stay with this guy and the other men may have been dishonest with you, so i mean this is kind of classic cry bullying right which is you feel so hurt that you give yourself permission to become you know kind of nasty and call him an asshole right i.
[1:14:04] Didn't call him an asshole.
[1:14:05] No i understand we've already been through this do you want to go through it again? You categorize him as an asshole, even talking to me about it years later. And I heard the aggression in your voice. You don't have to be an asshole about it, right? I mean, it's very aggressive, right? Which means that you're so hurt by something he did. I mean, this is your brother, right? Your brother makes a terrible joke. This is, I mean, calling you chunky and pinching your belly is not in the same category as your brother's awful rape joke, but you're upset and you lash out. Have you read my book, Real-Time Relationships, by chance?
[1:14:48] No.
[1:14:49] Oh, okay. You know, I have a free book on relationships that if you're having a bad relationship could be helpful. Do you know of the book at all?
[1:14:56] No.
[1:14:57] Oh, okay. All right. Okay, so I just wanted to point out that if you feel this upset, it doesn't mean the other person is being bad. Just because you're upset doesn't mean the other person has done anything wrong. no i mean you being upset if that translates into your mind as he's an asshole because he upset me well that means that he has to then live in fear of a negative emotional response from you, because then he's going to be categorized as an asshole if he upsets you but men don't want to be be bullied like that. Nobody does. Why should the world have to tiptoe around your emotions and live in fear of you categorizing them as an asshole for upsetting you?
[1:16:06] I mean, I've upset people in the world and they've called me all kinds of terrible names. Is that fair?
[1:16:33] I i apologize i no.
[1:16:35] You don't have to apologize to me you didn't call me an asshole you don't have to apologize to me at all, i'm just trying to i'm trying to teach you a principle here that's going to have less volatility in your relationships now if somebody says something or does something that upsets you you You can say, boy, that's really upsetting to me. I'm not sure why. Tell me what you were thinking. Let's talk about it. As opposed to, oh, what an asshole. My other boyfriends would never do it. That's just escalation, right?
[1:17:05] I want to be very clear that that is exactly what I did is I told him that it was offensive. And I did not say that my other boyfriends wouldn't say that to me. I had no other boyfriends at the time. I had no dating history at the time.
[1:17:19] Okay. So you told him it was offensive?
[1:17:24] Yes.
[1:17:25] But that's not emotionally honest. I'm upset. I'm hurt. That's emotionally honest. It's offensive is a moral judgment that puts him in the wrong.
[1:17:38] This was an argument from 10 years ago, but I'm fairly certain that I told him I was hurt.
[1:17:44] Listen, my friend, all I can do is go by what... I wasn't there. I haven't heard a recording. All I can do is go by what you're telling me, right? If you told me that you said it was offensive, I'm going to make a belief based on that. I'm going to make a response based on that. okay so what else happened in the relationship that was a problem for you and i'm not disagreeing i'm i'm not disagreeing with anything you're saying here really just so you know i'm still 150 on your side there.
[1:18:24] Was one time when we were in bed and i was i was crying um because i hadn't slept in a long time and I was having anxieties and he, instead of comforting me, pinched my nipple out of the blue. And it made me cry harder.
[1:18:52] Sorry, and how long into the relationship was this?
[1:18:55] I think it was about two years, three years.
[1:18:59] Okay i'm so sorry to i just ask you for the next thing how was the argument or the disagreement about him pinching your stomach and calling you chunky how was that resolved what what happened with it.
[1:19:13] As i recall i was i was angry but i was not abusive and i just i i firmly demanded an apology and he didn't give me an apology so I just turned and left and then.
[1:19:31] Sorry I gotta tell you why did he owe you an apology.
[1:19:35] Hurting my feelings but.
[1:19:38] That's not that's not a reason to apologize to someone maybe I'm missing something and I'm sorry if I'm confused okay.
[1:19:48] Well, fine okay.
[1:19:55] No no don't don't go passive aggressive and rubber bones on me again make the case i'm happy to hear i mean just should i apologize to the world because people are upset by things i say, like when i talk about iq or i talk about the voluntary hang on hang on hang on so hang on no this is personal right so when i talk about iq or i talk about uh the voluntary family or i talk You don't have to spend time with abusers. Some people get really angry and upset, and I hurt them, so to speak, right?
[1:20:26] Yes, because those are very necessary conversations that need to happen. But rudely grabbing someone's stomach and calling them chungy is not necessary. If you want to have a serious conversation about someone's weight, that's absolutely fine. There's nothing wrong with that. But you don't do it out of a spirit of meanness or rudeness. Okay, so hang on.
[1:20:45] Hang on. So did he agree with you that he did it out of a spirit of meanness and rudeness?
[1:20:55] He didn't explicitly use those words.
[1:20:57] Okay. So did he agree that he did something wrong?
[1:21:04] Yes. Okay.
[1:21:05] So what did he say?
[1:21:08] This is from 10 years ago. I don't completely remember, but I think he agreed that it was a mean thing to do.
[1:21:15] Okay. So he agreed that it was a mean thing to do, and he apologized.
[1:21:18] And unnecessary. Sorry? Yes. And unnecessary. Mean and unnecessary. Unnecessary.
[1:21:23] What does unnecessary mean?
[1:21:27] It means that you don't have to, it's not going to be hurtful if there's not a good cause or reason behind it.
[1:21:36] Sorry, so he said that he didn't think that you were chunky at all, and he just said it to be mean, to hurt you.
[1:21:48] He didn't explain why he told me. He thought I was chunky. Can I please just clarify that I was very small at the time? I'm 5'4", and I was approximately... That summer, I was approximately 105, 110 pounds. That's very small. Therefore, is it necessary to call a very average-weight woman chunky?
[1:22:13] Well, maybe he was joking.
[1:22:17] It's not a nice joke. I never wanted to joke like that.
[1:22:19] No, because hang on, hang on. So, if you looked at, I don't know, Brad Pitt in Fight Club, right? And the trainer came up and said, oh, aren't you looking chunky, right? I mean, that would be a joke, right? Because he looked really lean and great in that movie, right? So, if you aren't overweight and someone says, oh, you're chunky, right? It could be a joke, right? I'm not saying it's, you know, but it could just be a joke.
[1:22:49] Sure.
[1:22:52] But I'm still trying to figure out why there'd be such a strong emotional response.
[1:22:58] I felt verbally abused.
[1:23:02] But this is what I don't quite understand, and I'm sorry to be dense. I really am. I'm sure I'm missing something obvious here. So, you know, just bear with me or try to be patient as I try to figure this out. You welcome outright child abusers into your home. but a guy pinches your stomach and calls you chunky, that's absolutely unacceptable, and you're outraged by it.
[1:23:28] I don't understand the standards. I'm very outraged by the fact that my grandma stayed married to an abusive man. It makes me very angry.
[1:23:37] No, you've never confronted her, and you see her all the time, you said.
[1:23:46] My grandma's been confronted by her daughters.
[1:23:49] No, come on. Look, are we really going to dance around the bush like this? You understand where I'm coming from, right? You've expressed infinitely more outrage and aggression, at your boyfriend perhaps playfully pinching your belly and calling you chunky when you're a very healthy weight, in fact, maybe lean. You're infinitely more outraged about that And you, in fact, never confront your grandmother and see her all the time. Okay, what's worse, pinching your girlfriend's stomach and calling her chunky when she's not, or facilitating the constant verbal abuse and alleged sexual molestation and or rape of daughters?
[1:24:48] You're right, staying married to him was evil and wrong.
[1:24:51] No, it's you, your standards. she's welcome in your life, but your boyfriend if he pinches your belly man he's an asshole but hey this woman who facilitated the possible rape of children and the verbal abuse of children for decades and decades she's totally welcome don't say anything to her.
[1:25:25] If you're so outraged about negative behavior that you call your boyfriend an asshole for pinching your belly, my gosh, what judgments must you have of your grandmother? Well, apparently none. Really? Nothing that matters? Nothing that you talk to her about? She's still welcome in your life, right? See, the moral judgment goes somewhere. This is what's difficult about having people in your life that you lie to. From the outside, it looks like you're frightened of your grandmother, so you comply with her. You demand an apology from your boyfriend for pinching your belly, but you don't demand any accountability for your grandmother for abusing your own mother for decades. Do you see the problem I have?
[1:26:33] Yes.
[1:26:37] Your mother has a credibly accused abuser and raper of daughters. around you, her daughter?
[1:26:50] Yes.
[1:26:51] Do you hold her to account, or is holding people to account only for your boyfriend who pinches your belly?
[1:26:57] I've told my mom that it was very wrong and bad for her to have our grandpa around her children.
[1:27:06] And?
[1:27:09] And she's apologized, and she does agree that it was the wrong thing to do. Okay.
[1:27:16] So, has she stopped seeing her father?
[1:27:19] No. Okay.
[1:27:21] Has she said, well, you know, given that you're saying all of this, I have to work really hard to protect you from all of this, and therefore we have to sit down with your grandmother, or I'm concerned that you're spending time with your grandmother, or is it just, well, you apologize, and you cry a little, and then you move on like nothing happened?
[1:27:43] Happened? I'm sorry, I lost, I missed the question.
[1:27:48] Well, what were the practical consequences of your mother recognizing how much danger she put you and your sister in by having your grandfather around? As a child, what were the practical consequences of that? What changed?
[1:28:07] The practical consequences of having my grandpa around?
[1:28:10] No, of her apologizing to you.
[1:28:17] She welcomed me to not speak to him anymore, and I don't speak to that grandpa anymore. And he's not welcome in the house when, definitely not when us kids are there. Even though we're adults, he's not welcome in the house when the kids are there.
[1:28:32] But she maintains a relationship with him.
[1:28:35] She does. Because she kind of hates him.
[1:28:37] And do you think it's healthy for her to maintain a relationship with him?
[1:28:42] No.
[1:28:43] Okay, so are you trying to help her by convincing her to not have a relationship with him?
[1:28:51] Not very much.
[1:28:53] Because you're very tough with your boyfriend, right? He has to apologize for pinching your stomach and being rude and inappropriate. Appropriate. But your mother doesn't have to stop seeing her abusive grandfather.
[1:29:09] She, if, I just want to note, she hates her dad. She wishes that he would die. Okay. So help her.
[1:29:20] Aren't you, I mean, you're really working to help your boyfriend and have him not do anything dysfunctional and not do anything that's upsetting or harmful, right? Right? So, I'm a little confused. Why aren't you helping your mother and free her from the grip of this terrible father of hers? Because you're very assertive with your boyfriend and you tell him exactly what he needs to change to be a better person. So, why not your mother?
[1:29:53] Yeah, it never... Yeah, you're right. it.
[1:29:56] So it's your outrage is just a power thing. You have power over your boyfriend. You can grind him down and make him apologize. You don't feel like you have power over your mother, so you don't really say much. And your grandmother put your mother in extreme danger to the point where your mother is questioning whether she might have been sexually abused by her father, right?
[1:30:30] Right.
[1:30:31] So your grandmother was causally responsible for decades of child abuse and potential sexual assault of children, right?
[1:30:42] I know Stefan I know I know.
[1:30:45] No but why are you so tough with your boyfriend and let your grandmother get away with things that are infinitely worse.
[1:30:53] She already got away with it.
[1:30:55] No she's no come on oh my gosh I mean do you really want to because if you're just going to dodge like this I'm not really sure what the point of the convo is, what do you mean she already got away with it you're still seeing her aren't you you said all the time.
[1:31:11] I can confront her.
[1:31:13] No, no.
[1:31:13] But...
[1:31:14] No. Oh, my God. I'm talking about your standards. You're outraged with your boyfriend for pinching your belly, but you won't help your mother, and you have no boundaries with your incredibly cruel and abusive grandmother. So where are your standards?
[1:31:35] Okay. Yeah, I see what you're saying.
[1:31:38] Now, do you think that your boyfriend, knowing your boyfriend knew all of this about your family, right?
[1:31:45] No.
[1:31:47] I'm sorry?
[1:31:49] He did not.
[1:31:51] Sorry, what didn't he know about your family?
[1:31:57] My boyfriend knew that my maternal grandfather was abusive. It was during the first year of my dating relationship with him that I cut off my grandpa because I had been informed about the sexual abuse allegations. And he didn't ask me why I was cutting off my grandpa. And I didn't tell him. I only explained to him that there was verbal abuse. He was, he had no questions.
[1:32:34] So you hid from him the allegations of sexual abuse against your grandfather?
[1:32:41] I didn't think I was hiding it. It's just such an ugly, uncomfortable thing to talk about. I didn't, I didn't bring it up.
[1:32:55] Do you not think that's relevant? To someone you want to have kids with?
[1:33:02] Yeah, you're right.
[1:33:04] Like maybe, sorry, again, I'm somebody trying to understand.
[1:33:10] Yeah.
[1:33:12] So you're... You wanted to get married and have kids with your boyfriend, right?
[1:33:21] I did, yeah.
[1:33:22] And do you think that, okay, let's do it this way. Let's say that your boyfriend's grandfather had been accused, as you say credibly, of sexually abusing his children, right? And that the mother, his grandmother, had enabled this. Do you think that you would want to know that before having kids with him?
[1:33:48] A little bit in respect to whether or not our children are around grandpa and grandma.
[1:33:58] But it's a whole family system.
[1:34:01] Right. Right.
[1:34:02] It's a whole family system that you'd be dealing with.
[1:34:05] Right. Right.
[1:34:09] Do you not think that it would be important for you to know this?
[1:34:16] That's a good point yeah well.
[1:34:18] You know that right, yeah right what did your grandmother say was the most important thing to do it was to vet the family right so did you accepted that right that it's important to vet the family right right okay so how is your boyfriend supposed to vet the family if he doesn't know about these allegations, he can't so I don't I mean, so you're upset because he pinched your belly but you withheld essential information from him about the family he could have married into and had children with and you're trying to play outrage queen to me.
[1:35:02] I did that yeah I.
[1:35:05] Mean really.
[1:35:11] I i didn't want our kids to be around that grandpa i never would have allowed for it.
[1:35:24] You understand that that's not the point right, what if the grandpa what if he didn't know this and the grandfather came over while you were at work or away or somewhere else. What about the grandmother who you were still close with? How is he supposed to evaluate the grandmother without knowing what the grandfather did?
[1:35:51] He couldn't.
[1:35:53] Did you tell your boyfriend that your grandfather had had an affair and lost his ministry?
[1:36:01] I don't, I can't remember anymore.
[1:36:03] I think you'd remember that i.
[1:36:07] Probably didn't right.
[1:36:14] Okay so listen i'm sure that your boyfriend had his issues but i'm talking to you not him right right and if you if you control the information if you censor and you control the information in order to manipulate your boyfriend's perception. You don't have much right to complain about how rude and terrible he is when he pinches your belly.
[1:36:42] Okay.
[1:36:48] And this is not, this is, I mean, I call it displacement. So displacement is, let's say, you know, the old story, it's like a cartoon or a comic, right? Where the boss yells at the employee, the employee yells at his wife, the wife yells at the kid, and the kid kicks the cat, right?
[1:37:09] Right.
[1:37:09] So that's displacement. So the boss yells at the employee, and the reason that the boss yells at the employee is because his boss or some customer yelled at him. So the boss yells at the employee. Now, the employee is frustrated and angry but can't yell at the boss, so he goes home and he yells at his wife. His wife is frustrated and angry, won't yell at the husband, is afraid of yelling at the husband, therefore she yells at the kid. You understand, right? So it's displaced anger. So all of this intensity and outrage that you have about absolutely terrible, if not downright criminal acts within your family, all gets channeled at your boyfriend pinching your belly. And that's why there was this emotional intensity about this, which was utterly out of proportion to the provocation. It's because you have a lot of thwarted honesty and outrage. rage. And your whole family has it, because people are getting away off with murder. So your whole family has this displacement. And all of your frustration at the lack of protection and boundaries in your family, the lack of honesty and moral judgment and clarity within your family, all gets all, gets focused on your boyfriend pinching your belly or something like it.
[1:38:35] I mean of all of the crimes and horrors that you described to me the one you got really upset about and angry about and called someone an asshole about after all of molestation potentially and and hittings and and and verbal abuse and and hypocrisy at the pulpit and losing a congregation and having affairs and or and lying about there not being any red flags all of that all of these horrors that you explained to me, you don't get angry about any of them. Ah, but your boyfriend pinches your belly. Oh my God, he's an asshole. How dare he? My other boyfriends would never, like that's what your outrage is. And it's because it isn't in the proper places.
[1:39:20] I don't agree. I have incredible heartbreak about the way that my aunts were abused and my mom was abused.
[1:39:30] I'm not talking about heartbreak, was I? What emotion was I talking about?
[1:39:34] I'm very angry about... I'm angry on their behalf. The story about my aunt being dead...
[1:39:42] You're not angry enough to keep your grandmother at bay. You're not angry enough to rescue your mother from her father. But you're angry enough to hold your boyfriend's feet to the fire for pinching your belly. That's what I'm talking about. And there was much more aggression when you were talking about your boyfriend pinching your belly than there was about anything to do with your family. I'm pretty good at this stuff. I'm pretty good at listening to this stuff and understanding. I've got a lot of experience now. I mean, you don't have to believe me, and you can listen to the playback if you like. but you didn't call anyone an asshole until your boyfriend pinched your belly.
[1:40:30] Well, I called my grandpa evil.
[1:40:35] Are you going to still fence around the edges here? I mean, I feel like we're just stuck in a cycle here, where I keep pointing out that you don't have boundaries, and you say, well, I do with the guy I don't see, and I'm like, yes, but your mother still sees him, and you hang out with grandma all the time, so we just keep doing this sort of pointless thing, because you're the one who told me that you didn't used to see your grandmother now you see her all the time you didn't used to see her much, now you see her all the time, right? right there's no boundaries there, right? no boundaries, no judgment, no confrontation no honesty and you're still surrendering your mother to her abusive father my god, do you not care about your mother enough to, rescue her? or do everything you can? She's still being abused by her father. And you're like, yeah, but the real problem in my life is my boyfriend pinched my belly. He's an asshole.
[1:41:31] No.
[1:41:47] Okay, so...
[1:41:48] Adding that to the list.
[1:41:49] Sorry, go ahead.
[1:41:50] I'm adding that to the list. And I have a literal notepad in front of me.
[1:41:54] Okay, well, I mean, I will summarize it too. And listen, I mean, I know I'm being fairly strong here, but I'm doing this because I really, really want to keep you safe, right? Because you're obviously calling me saying, is it possible for me to have a husband and kids, right? You'd like to have a husband and kids, right?
[1:42:17] Yes. Right.
[1:42:18] How long ago did you break up with your boyfriend?
[1:42:22] That was in 2020. He broke up with me.
[1:42:26] He broke up with you, okay. So, why did he, I mean, do you have any theories as to why he pinched your nipple when you were upset about something? Okay.
[1:42:38] I think he's an insensitive, unkind person.
[1:42:44] Okay. So, okay, so when did you first realize he was an insensitive, unkind person?
[1:42:53] When he pinched my stomach.
[1:42:56] So, why did you stay?
[1:43:03] I don't completely know.
[1:43:05] Okay, what do you partially know?
[1:43:08] I know I was afraid to break up with him. I was afraid to hurt his feelings.
[1:43:14] No, no, I don't think that was it. No, I don't think that was it. Because you did hurt his feelings by telling him that he was rude and offensive and making him apologize, right? That hurt his feelings, right?
[1:43:31] Yeah.
[1:43:32] Okay, so you're perfectly willing to hurt his feelings, so what else is it?
[1:43:36] The heartbreak breaking up being broken up with hurts way more than your girlfriend telling you that she'd like an apology for saying something rude.
[1:43:45] Well it was more than like it was kind of a demand i would imagine but okay so but you're so you're willing to hurt his feelings right.
[1:43:55] Only a little bit.
[1:43:56] Okay so you didn't want to hurt his feelings that much, right so you had sex with him i assume uh did you guys did have sex is that right, yes okay so you didn't listen to your grandmother either right right okay so you had sex with him even though you thought he was a cruel and uh unfeeling or unkind person right, So you had sex with him against your will?
[1:44:34] We had... I got mixed signals in the relationship. He could be nice sometimes, but he could be a jerk.
[1:44:42] And you were consistently nice? Is that the theory?
[1:44:47] Based on our last few conversations, I think he would have rated me pretty highly as a girlfriend.
[1:44:53] He would have rated you highly as a girlfriend?
[1:44:55] He would, yeah.
[1:44:56] Okay, so then why did he break up with you?
[1:45:01] Because we were supposed to get engaged, and I was having anxiety and crying, and I couldn't eat because it was like every bone in my body was saying, don't marry him. And he knew I wasn't happy, so he broke up with me.
[1:45:24] And for how long had you been having the anxiety and the sleeplessness and the not eating.
[1:45:29] A few months.
[1:45:32] Um but you'd had it before is that right, no um so um, Tell me a little bit more about conflicts. You had the, he pinched your belly, he pinched your nipple. I see this guy as a lobster. He pinched your belly, he pinched your nipple. And what else happened over the course of the relationship that caused problems for you?
[1:45:59] He was short and mildly impatient. patient and um and he uh sulked a lot and was low-key irritable and i always felt like i was scrambling to make him happy i was always working to pacify him and it was all always about taking care of his feelings okay and.
[1:46:26] What it's funny because i actually have that experience of you as well in the call i have to really manage these these feelings um so what did you do to make him happy.
[1:46:36] Um get him a beer he drank almost every day and did he drink a lot did he drink a lot um a beer every day and then a little bit more on the weekend okay a beer a day.
[1:46:53] Is not much right Six-foot-tall guy.
[1:46:55] True. Okay. He came from a family of alcoholics, by the way.
[1:46:59] Right, but he wasn't drinking to excess. I mean, a beer a day is not much. It's not great. I don't drink myself, really, but it's not much, right?
[1:47:09] No. Okay.
[1:47:11] So you'd get him a beer? What else would you do to make him happy?
[1:47:14] Sex.
[1:47:15] I'm sorry?
[1:47:17] Sex.
[1:47:18] So did you use sex to manage his emotions?
[1:47:22] Yeah. Okay.
[1:47:23] Okay, so that meant that you had sex when you didn't want to.
[1:47:32] I had sex when I wasn't necessarily up for it, but I did it to make him happy.
[1:47:37] Right, so you had, sorry, I'm not sure why this is a, you had sex when you didn't want to because he was moody and you wanted him to feel better.
[1:47:46] Right.
[1:47:47] Okay.
[1:47:50] Um, sometimes I'd buy dinner if he was in a sulky, foul mood because I felt guilty that we were on a date and he was in a bad mood and I felt like I should grab the bill.
[1:48:08] Uh, were you working?
[1:48:11] Um, on and off through those college years, yes.
[1:48:14] Okay, so I mean, you should pay the bill sometimes, right?
[1:48:17] I did pay the bill, pretty frequently actually.
[1:48:19] Oh, you did pay the bill frequently, like about half?
[1:48:24] It's hard to say. I would say between 30% and half.
[1:48:31] And what do you think he did to deal with your emotions?
[1:48:39] I didn't have very many negative emotions. Truthfully, Stefan, we didn't have a lot of fights. he would sometimes apologize if i was upset about something um, not a very active comforter like if i was upset he sorry.
[1:49:06] Not a very active what.
[1:49:07] He i i think he put not minimal effort into comforting me so.
[1:49:16] You're criticizing him again end. I'm just curious if you thought that you might have been at all difficult at times in the relationship.
[1:49:24] No, not very often. According to...
[1:49:27] I said at times.
[1:49:35] Maybe at times.
[1:49:38] Did you think that I have found you easy to have a conversation with?
[1:49:48] Um, no. Okay.
[1:49:50] So you can be difficult, right?
[1:49:53] Yes.
[1:49:54] Okay. You also withheld absolutely essential information from him in order to manipulate him.
[1:50:05] I wasn't trying to manipulate him.
[1:50:07] Sure you were. No, come on. Let's be honest about this. Come on. You're not a kid. Of course you were. You were trying to withhold negative information about your family so that he wouldn't judge you or your family negatively. that's manipulation, because you're making the decision for him you're not giving him the information and letting him make the decision.
[1:50:28] Himself.
[1:50:29] You're deciding for him what information he should or shouldn't get. That's manipulation, right? Okay. So you're not innocent in this interaction, right? I mean, that was kind of a test when I said, what did he have to put up with or manage? He's like, oh, well, yes, I did withhold all this information, but you'd forgotten it by then, right?
[1:50:53] Yeah. Okay.
[1:50:56] And what did he think of your family?
[1:50:59] He liked them a lot.
[1:51:01] And did they like him.
[1:51:04] My mom was a bit my mom was a little bit more skeptical my dad really liked him.
[1:51:09] Okay and did your mother know that you didn't like him very much your your boyfriend yes okay and did Did your father know that you didn't like your boyfriend very much?
[1:51:26] Um, he probably only knew him a little bit.
[1:51:28] No, no, did you tell him? He's your father, right? You say you have this great family, you grew up, it was a good family life growing up, and so you must be close to your dad. So did you tell your dad that I'm kind of staying with him because I don't want to hurt his feelings and I don't really like him that much?
[1:51:43] No.
[1:51:44] So why would you, oh gosh, I'm trying to figure out, why are you lying to your father now? Now, did you tell that to your mother? I don't really like him, but I'm staying with him because I don't want to hurt his feelings and I have sex with him when I don't like to in order to manage his mood.
[1:51:59] I did tell my mom, not often, but we had a few conversations about my ambivalence about the relationship.
[1:52:07] But did you tell him that you, did you tell your mother that you spend a lot of, a fair amount of time managing your boyfriend mood, including having sex with him so he won't be upset and paying for dinner so he won't be too moody no okay so why you like why do you withhold all this information from everyone uh.
[1:52:26] Shame um i was embarrassed that i didn't like my boyfriend, at least i didn't.
[1:52:37] Like him as much right right yeah so is there again i'm i'm just I'm trying to understand. I mean, you're a Christian, and you're into what I talk about. What is the first virtue? It's truth, right? It's honesty. It's the first virtue. If you don't have that virtue, you can't have anything, right?
[1:52:57] Right.
[1:52:57] You can't get any help from a doctor if you go and lie about your symptoms, right?
[1:53:02] Right.
[1:53:03] Okay. So you've been listening to me for 10 years. You're a devout Christian, and you lie constantly.
[1:53:12] And this is good news.
[1:53:13] Believe it or not. This is really good news, because it means there's something easy to fix.
[1:53:19] I lie through omission.
[1:53:20] I'm sorry?
[1:53:21] I lie through omission.
[1:53:25] Why do people add through omission like that means anything? that's worse right, right if I go to the doctor let's say that my left side is really hurting right and I go to my doctor and he says is anything hurting and I say no, then he sends me on my way right but if my left side is hurting and I lie and say my right side is hurting that's better I could actually he can start to examine me right so lying Lying by omission is even worse. People say this like it's better. Well, it's just by omission. That's worse.
[1:54:07] Right. Right?
[1:54:10] I mean, if some guy cheats on you and he later says, well, I did lie. I didn't tell you about it. But you never queried me directly if I had slept with this woman. So I was only lying by omission. That's worse.
[1:54:24] Right. Right. I know pride had a lot to do with it.
[1:54:29] Okay. And what does Christianity have to say about pride?
[1:54:35] Comes before a fall.
[1:54:37] It's a sin.
[1:54:38] Yes. Right? Yeah, right.
[1:54:41] So did you pray to God for guidance in these issues? And did God say, yeah, just keep lying. Yeah, just keep lying. That's the foundation of virtue is to lie at an high, have sex when you don't want to, and act out of pride.
[1:54:57] I kind of felt like God had given me this man, and that it was a gift, and it would be ungrateful.
[1:55:03] Did God tell you to lie?
[1:55:08] No. No.
[1:55:09] Okay, so did God ever tell you when you prayed, did God ever tell you to tell the truth? Yes.
[1:55:17] Yes. Okay.
[1:55:20] So this is good news. You sinned, and it cost you. I mean, that's exactly what sin does, isn't it?
[1:55:28] Right. Right?
[1:55:30] The wages of sin is death. In this case, it was the death of the relationship, right?
[1:55:34] Right.
[1:55:35] So that's good news. You succumbed to the temptation, the devilish temptation, to lie and manipulate, right?
[1:55:43] Right.
[1:55:43] And you did it with your, did you ever tell your sister about the truth of your relationship?
[1:55:50] No.
[1:55:51] You're twin. You're close, you said. Okay, so you didn't tell your sister. You didn't tell your brother. You didn't tell your father. You didn't tell your mother. Did you tell any of your friends?
[1:56:03] No. Okay.
[1:56:05] So why, where do you get, where do you think this habit of lying comes from? And please understand, I sympathize. I really do. And I'm not calling you some big, stinky old liar. I'm just saying that these lies are very costly, right? So where do you think this lying comes from?
[1:56:25] My family.
[1:56:27] I'm sorry?
[1:56:28] My family. Okay.
[1:56:30] So where does the lying in your family come from?
[1:56:35] My grandparents.
[1:56:37] Are you asking me or telling me?
[1:56:41] Asking.
[1:56:43] Well, they're your family. You can tell where it comes from.
[1:56:47] It comes from the grandparents.
[1:56:50] No, it comes from your parents. Well, I mean your grandparents, but you were raised by your parents for the most part, right?
[1:56:55] Right.
[1:56:56] Your parents lie like crazy.
[1:57:00] Right.
[1:57:00] Right, because your mother still pretends to have a relationship with the dad who verbally abused her and might have raped her sisters. And who cheated on her mother. And she still has a relationship, as do you, with the grandmother, right? So it's all for show.
[1:57:17] Right.
[1:57:19] So you all go to church and... you pretend everything's fine.
[1:57:28] Right.
[1:57:30] And Satan is the father of what?
[1:57:33] Liars.
[1:57:34] That's right. So, I think you've been praying the wrong way, in the wrong direction, or something like that, right? But, in all seriousness, this is entirely taken care of in Christianity, right? Don't act out of pride, and don't lie. and hold people to account, right?
[1:57:56] Right.
[1:57:59] So, your family lies a lot. And again, I sympathize with the abuse. I absolutely, completely, and totally do. And I sympathize with the impulse. I get all of that. So, I'm not saying that this is some big, terrible moral crime, but it is a fact, nonetheless, that your family is kind of addicted to falsehood.
[1:58:20] Right.
[1:58:25] Yes, so and i i knew that from early on and so that's why when you're you know angry with tears and and and hostility towards your boyfriend for pinching you i'm like i gotta see some bigger problems here.
[1:58:46] Being made to feel ugly or fat is a sensitive topic.
[1:58:53] Why sorry but you're not overweight why is that a sensitive topic.
[1:58:59] I think women are biologically primed to care a lot about their looks for better or worse.
[1:59:11] Yes, but women are also capable of processing reality, and if you're not fat, then being called, if you're not chunky, being called chunky doesn't land, right? If somebody told me, I hate your hairstyle, it's like, I'm bald, I don't have a hairstyle, it doesn't bother me. Women also process reality, right?
[1:59:29] Right.
[1:59:33] But in the larger sin of child abuse, pathological lying, manipulation, control, Falsehood Pinching the belly? Come on You know that's displacement, okay no now you're just getting passive-aggressive okay right if you don't agree with me that's fine but when you listen back to this and you describe all the moral and terrible crimes of which of which pride and bearing false witness continually you were in this relationship for five years right, right and you lied about it to everyone Everyone.
[2:00:21] Yeah.
[2:00:22] Five years.
[2:00:24] Yes.
[2:00:27] And that's only part of the problem. The other part of the problem, did your parents know that you were unhappy? Do your parents know the difference between you being in love and you not being in love?
[2:00:41] My mom knew.
[2:00:42] Your mom knew that you were unhappy?
[2:00:45] She knew that I was ambivalent.
[2:00:48] Ambivalent is not quite the same. Ambivalent is you've got strong feelings of love and not love. So did she know that you didn't like the man and you were there only to appease him?
[2:01:05] She had an inkling. She didn't have the whole picture.
[2:01:08] So she had an idea that you weren't fully in love, right?
[2:01:12] Yes. Okay.
[2:01:13] So what did she do about that? What did she do to guide and help you?
[2:01:19] Nothing why not i don't know.
[2:01:24] Yes you do because.
[2:01:25] She's addicted to lying i.
[2:01:29] Don't know behavior i don't know but if she cared about you enough right so oh this is why this is why you abandon her she abandoned you to your boyfriend you abandon her to her father she appeases her father and you appease your boyfriend friend right right she stays in a relationship she stays in a relationship with her father so she doesn't upset him too much you stay in a relationship with your boyfriend so you don't upset him too much right right.
[2:01:58] I think she saw a lot of her own relationship marriage to my dad.
[2:02:03] I'm sorry her marriage.
[2:02:06] To my dad mirrors my relationship a bit to my boyfriend friend.
[2:02:14] Sorry I'm a little confused because again I'm not trying to play dumb here but I thought at the beginning you said she had a pretty idyllic childhood and.
[2:02:23] Um, she has admitted that she didn't, she wasn't crazy about my dad when they met, but she did make the decision to marry him and she doesn't feel that that was a wrong or a bad decision.
[2:02:39] So she fell more in love with him over time, right? Or did she?
[2:02:43] Right.
[2:02:46] Okay, but that's fine. I mean, you know, my wife and I, our eyes didn't meet from across a crowded airplane hangar and the angels sang. We just got to know each other, right?
[2:02:56] Right.
[2:02:57] So there's nothing wrong with that. I mean, that often is better, right? Infatuation is unstable. But a true respect for character and virtue is stable, right?
[2:03:08] Right.
[2:03:09] So the fact that your mother was not wildly attracted to your father, when they first met. It's not a problem, but she fell in love with him over time. Is that right?
[2:03:22] Yeah.
[2:03:23] Wait, I'm not sure. I'm not sure because I don't know what you're telling me. Is the truth or not now? So, does your mother love you or father?
[2:03:32] Honestly, I think so, but I'm not really sure.
[2:03:35] Okay.
[2:03:38] I know, and that's a weird thing to say, if you don't know if your mom loves your dad, But I know that she's very deeply loyal to him. And she's told me that she's a very dutiful Christian wife. She's loyal to him. She thinks that extramarital affairs are bizarre and disgusting.
[2:04:06] Okay, sorry. I don't want to go too much into your mother because I'm trying to help you the most. Okay. Okay, so you're in a relationship with the guy, right, Bob. How soon did your mother have an inkling that you weren't falling in love with Bob?
[2:04:25] Early. Okay. Early.
[2:04:27] So I don't know how it works in your family. I'm just trying to picture my daughter, right?
[2:04:32] Right.
[2:04:33] So if my daughter was in a relationship with a guy and she did not seem happy, what would I do?
[2:04:45] You would confront her.
[2:04:47] I wouldn't confront her, but I don't know what that means, but I would keep asking, right? I'd try and figure things out, trying to ask, trying to understand, trying to, right?
[2:04:55] Right.
[2:04:59] Now, do you think if my daughter was unhappy in a relationship, do you think I would hide that from my wife?
[2:05:09] No. Okay.
[2:05:10] Do you think if my daughter told my wife, or my wife found out that my daughter was unhappy in a relationship, do you think that my wife would hide that from me?
[2:05:21] No. Okay.
[2:05:23] Now, my wife comes to me and says, your daughter is unhappy in her relationship. relationship um would that not be a pretty a pretty significant family emergency that would really need to be dealt with yeah okay and i can tell you this my friend i would move heaven and earth until i got that resolved i would sit down with my wife i would sit down with my wife and my daughter i would sit down with my wife my daughter and her boyfriend and nothing no one would get up until it was resolved right and that would happen that day right i would not let this go on for five gd years right.
[2:06:08] Can i ask you a question i.
[2:06:12] Feel this is going to be a tangent but all right.
[2:06:16] How unhappy do you have to be in a relationship to justify leaving? Because no person is perfect. You won't ever be perfectly happy in a relationship. You know if you should stay or if you should leave.
[2:06:32] Okay, so this is a tangent, right? So I'm talking about your parents. So why are you talking to me about abstract questions of perfection in relationships?
[2:06:41] It's just at the heart of why I wanted to go. No, it's not.
[2:06:44] The heart of it is your parents. you got involved with this man when you were in college right? how old were you? 20 so you know nothing you know nothing wrong with that, you're 20, right? right you're still not at brain maturity right.
[2:07:07] It was my first relationship as well.
[2:07:09] Right, your parents had a relatively successful marriage right? right and they know as christians and just as parents that they need to guide their daughters and protect their daughters especially because they chose to have highly dysfunctional and dangerous people around their children growing up right correct okay so how is it possible that you drifted along in this go nowhere up and down manipulative false False. Half bullcrap relationship for half a decade, and your parents didn't move heaven and earth within five minutes of finding out that you are unhappy to sort things out. What kind of family is this? I don't understand.
[2:07:58] Right. Me neither.
[2:08:04] So here's where you can get outraged, maybe even as outraged as when your boyfriend pinched your belly. This is on your parents.
[2:08:13] Yes, I'm very angry with my parents. I actually haven't spoken to them in a few weeks. Do they know why?
[2:08:19] Or are you still lying by omission?
[2:08:21] Oh, no. I've talked to them. I've told them that I'm angry that the mentors in my life, the people with more life experience, didn't guide me through my five-year relationship.
[2:08:36] Okay, and what have they said?
[2:08:39] My dad angrily shouted at me that I chose to date him, and that's on me, and I was an adult. My mom feels bad, and she's apologetic.
[2:08:55] So you understand that this is why Your father's reaction is why you were susceptible To your boyfriend's coldness, I'm confused.
[2:09:06] I'm sorry Please clarify Well.
[2:09:09] Your boyfriend By pinching your belly By pinching your nipple, you said he was cold and heartless, right? That's what your dad was, You chose to date him. You're an adult. It's on you, right?
[2:09:28] Yes.
[2:09:28] That's terrible. And that's absolutely anti-Christian.
[2:09:33] I think he's a little bit disappointed in me for not marrying him. He liked that boyfriend of his.
[2:09:37] Well, I don't want to theorize about what your father is thinking or not thinking. I'm only going to go on the facts.
[2:09:44] Right.
[2:09:44] That he let you drift along without intervening. Did he ever sit down and talk to you about what was going on in your relationship?
[2:09:53] No. Okay.
[2:09:54] So he completely abandoned his fatherly duties. Does he think that fatherhood ends at the age of 18? When you turn 18, all parenting is done. Well, if that's, then you never need to talk to them again, and you sure as hell don't need to take care of them when they get old, because parenting is all done. It's all over. It's not all over. Parenting, in many ways, just begins when your kids become an adult. Because then you have to guide them through relationships, through good jobs, careers. You have to help them with their own parenting, right? I mean, there's so much. It doesn't end.
[2:10:28] Right.
[2:10:29] So he abandoned his responsibility as a father.
[2:10:36] He did. Okay.
[2:10:38] And your mother, what does she think of your father yelling at you when you express hurt at being abandoned into this relationship by the man who's most sworn to protect you? um does she have any problems with what your father has done and yelling at you when you're upset at losing 10 years of your life.
[2:10:59] Um she just looked at my dad and she said hey she was young, she said my my mom looked at my dad and said yes she was an adult but she was young and let's just be sensitive towards her feelings right now.
[2:11:16] And what did your dad do he.
[2:11:18] Just didn't agree he just felt like i needed to take accountability for actions that i made as an adult.
[2:11:34] Okay so he he has no role as a father the moment you turned 18 he has absolutely no role as a father is that right that's the logic right yeah okay so then he's just some guy do you like him do you like people who say that to their daughters or to anyone, if he's just some guy just some guy you met let's say you were at a dinner party and you saw a guy like this talking to his daughter would you like him, okay so your father has said i'm not your father i'm just some guy so okay then you judge him without sentiment, without history, just on his actions in the present. If he wants to respect a father, he has to have the role of father. If he says, I don't have any role as father, then he's just judged as some guy.
[2:12:24] Right.
[2:12:28] Does your mother love your father if he treats her daughter like this?
[2:12:37] I think she loves my dad.
[2:12:41] Okay. You know we can only love virtue, right?
[2:12:44] Right.
[2:12:45] Is your father virtuous? Is he a virtuous man?
[2:12:49] Most of the time. No.
[2:12:53] I mean, to take a silly example, a serial killer is not killing people most of the time.
[2:12:58] Right.
[2:12:59] Is your father a virtuous man?
[2:13:03] No.
[2:13:04] Okay. A virtuous man cares for his children, for sure, right?
[2:13:09] Right.
[2:13:10] And provides them wisdom and guidance and instruction, right?
[2:13:15] Right.
[2:13:17] Does your father approve of your grandmother hanging around with his wife?
[2:13:23] Yes. Okay.
[2:13:24] Is he a moral man if he allows an unrepentant child abuser to continue to traumatize his wife?
[2:13:31] No. Okay.
[2:13:40] What's been so um your boyfriend bob initiated the breakup right, correct yeah okay and listen i mean after five years that makes i mean it should have been sooner but that makes sense right yeah and would you say that he was right.
[2:13:59] Um he's within his rights to break up with me.
[2:14:02] No not within his rights was he correct was it a good decision if you were having panic attacks about committing to this guy after five years was it a good decision to break up, okay were you uh having panic attacks anxiety attacks not eating not sleeping would you have been a fit wife and mother to bob and his kids?
[2:14:35] I treated him very well. I took very good care of him. I think I could have done that.
[2:14:40] You treated him very well. Oh my gosh. Are you still not seeing this? You treated him very well. You took very good care of him. No, you lied to him continuously for five years. you manipulated him you weren't direct and honest with him you lied to him about your family you lied to him about wanting to pay for dinner you lied to manipulate his moods you lied to him to have sex sometimes, You withheld information from him that was essential for him to know. And you're still saying you treated him well. And you stayed with him, not because you cared about him or loved him or respected him or admired him morally. You stayed with him out of pride, guilt, and obligation. And you never told him that, did you?
[2:15:32] No.
[2:15:33] You never told him, I don't really like you. I'm here out of pride, guilt, and manipulation.
[2:15:42] Correct.
[2:15:43] You lied to him about everything. He thought you loved him, didn't he? Did you ever tell him the truth that you didn't? Do you still think you treated him well? And he had his faults. I'm not saying it's all you. but my gosh, I'm drowning in, like, syrupy sentimentality here. Well, I treated him so well. I lied to him about everything, and I falsified the entire basis of the relationship. I broke his heart by telling him I loved him when I didn't. But I treated him well for five years. Oh, my God. You can't. I can't. It's been too long a call. You can't do that to me. or to yourself? Were you a good girlfriend?
[2:16:44] Sorry, say that again?
[2:16:45] Were you a good girlfriend?
[2:16:48] He thought so.
[2:16:49] Were you a good girlfriend?
[2:16:53] No. Okay.
[2:16:55] Why did he think so? Because you lied. And did he know at the end of the relationship that you'd been lying to him off and on for five years? yes okay did you tell him that you'd had sex with him and you didn't want to just to manipulate him.
[2:17:17] No.
[2:17:18] Okay, so you were still lying about that. Did you tell him that you had spent a lot of time managing his moods when you didn't really like him?
[2:17:28] No.
[2:17:28] Okay, so why? What did you tell him about why you were having these panic attacks and so on?
[2:17:39] I told him that I didn't feel very close to him.
[2:17:43] Okay. And why did you say that you didn't feel? what was the cause of him of you not feeling close to him what did you communicate to him not was the actual cause the actual cause was ethological lying for half a decade maybe on both your sides but what did you say to him about why you didn't feel close.
[2:18:02] I said that our conversations were I felt like I had to be both personalities in the relationship I felt like he could have a conversation about, Much.
[2:18:19] So when you say you had to be both personalities, were you implying that he doesn't have much of a personality?
[2:18:25] Yes.
[2:18:25] Okay, so you basically told him he doesn't have much of a personality?
[2:18:29] Yes.
[2:18:31] Ouch! You realize that's a brutal thing to hear?
[2:18:36] Yes.
[2:18:36] Okay. What else did you say to him that might haunt him for the rest of his natural-born days?
[2:18:44] Um... I don't, not much else. Just that I didn't feel close to him.
[2:18:55] And you blamed him for that, right? Not the fact that you lied a lot to him.
[2:19:01] I didn't blame him.
[2:19:03] Well, yeah, you said, hey, basically, I have to be both personalities. You don't have much of a personality, and that's why I'm not close. Unless there were other reasons why you said you didn't feel close. but you didn't tell him I don't feel close to you because I've been lying to you for years.
[2:19:26] Sorry, I'm just writing down what you said.
[2:19:39] So, I mean, as far as I understand it, you didn't say, well, I don't feel close to you because I've been lying to you for years.
[2:19:47] Correct. I did not say that.
[2:19:49] So you lied to him in the breakup and you blamed him, not your own moral failings. which is not to say he doesn't have his moral failings but again i'm talking to you not him right yes okay so you left him with the impression that he was deficient in the breakup right.
[2:20:09] Not entirely i took enormous amount of the blame on myself i said i must be broken i must be heartless you.
[2:20:20] Must be or you are i don't know what that what does must be mean.
[2:20:24] That's what I said at the time.
[2:20:26] I must be broken. But that's not really taking responsibility. They're saying there's some X mystery factor about you that is causing a problem, but you have no idea what it is. So what faults did you admit to Bob in the breakup? I mean, you didn't admit to the lying, right? Or the manipulation or the withholding of information or any of that, right?
[2:20:55] Right.
[2:20:56] So what did you say was your fault in the breakup?
[2:21:03] I didn't admit to any fault.
[2:21:05] So all the fault must have been his, right? that do you think that's worse than pinching someone's belly, I'm sorry you don't think that's worse than pinching someone's belly so it's worse to pinch someone's belly than lie to them and take no responsibility for the breakup, you're absolutely wrong about that, you're so wrong about that You must be misinterpreting what I'm saying.
[2:21:44] I think I misheard your question.
[2:21:46] Okay. Is it worse to lie to someone for five years and then blame them for not being close? Or is it worse to pinch someone's belly and call them pudgy?
[2:21:56] It's worse to lie to someone for five years. Right.
[2:22:01] So this is why the earlier emotion about pinching the belly was kind of incomprehensible to me. Because you'd already admitted to lying to him. At the very beginning, you said, I wasn't really attracted to him, but I just went along with it.
[2:22:18] Right.
[2:22:21] So this is great news. Honestly, this couldn't be better. Because we know what the problem is. Now, what's happened in your dating life, if anything, since you broke up with Bob four years ago?
[2:22:37] I'd like to get into it. I'm sorry to tell you that I'm on 2% battery.
[2:22:42] Ah, okay.
[2:22:43] And, yeah.
[2:22:44] And you, obviously, you don't have a charger or any other phone, right?
[2:22:48] I'm sorry, I do not at the moment. I'm in my car.
[2:22:51] Ah, no problem. Okay. Well, so that's good news. and it's good news because all you have to do is start telling the truth and having actionable moral standards, right? This is purely Christian, right? I feel like I'm sent here with feathered wings from God himself almost in a way, right? So that's good news. All you have to do is tell the truth. Personally, if I were in your shoes, I would reach back to Bob and say, no, I'm sorry if I left you, I definitely left you with the wrong impression because I lied about the breakup. I had been lying a lot throughout the course of the relationship, and that's entirely on me. And when I said you don't have a personality, well, it's kind of tough to be really present to someone who's telling a lot of lies. So you might want to message him because sometimes those kinds of things can be very helpful. And moving forward, I mean, and in all of your relationships, you just have to really work hard to commit to telling the truth, however difficult and unpleasant it can be at times. You just have to work really hard to tell the truth. And you can read my book, Real-Time Relationships. It's totally free at freedomain.com slash books, which will tell you a lot about how to actually achieve that. And when you go through that process, then you have the virtue called honesty. And with the virtue called honesty, it unlocks all the other virtues, which unlocks the capacity for true bonding love, if that makes sense.
[2:24:20] Right.
[2:24:22] All right. Well, I suppose before we're unceremoniously dumped off by your low battery, is there anything else that you wanted to mention at the end?
[2:24:32] No.
[2:24:33] And how are you feeling?
[2:24:36] I feel terrible.
[2:24:38] Go on.
[2:24:41] I'm 30 years old and I ruined my life, unfortunately.
[2:24:47] Well, no, that's despair. See, you just keep crashing from one sin to another, right? So, it's good news that we found out what the problem is in your relationships, but if you succumb to the sin of despair, then you're just committing another sin, right? What does God say, and Jesus, what do they say about despair? Is that a good thing?
[2:25:11] No.
[2:25:11] Okay, so you have to, the despair thing is coming from the devil too, right? You can achieve good things. Listen, I was older than you when I fell in love for the first time. Much older. And it wasn't like I was perfectly honest. It's not like I was perfectly honest in all of my early relationships. So I hope that, you know, from one sin or to another, I told a lot of lies and I was manipulative. And then I, you know, realized that was not working and it was a bad idea. Plus, it was kind of immoral. So I made that real commitment to honesty. and things have been good. So don't fall prey to this despair thing. That's just another devil sent sin. And recognize that telling the truth is a good thing. It's in line with the commandments and it is exactly what God would counsel you to do and I'm sure that he has. And as usual, it's not so much that we need to figure out what virtue is, we just need to do what we know to be right. And telling the truth is a good thing. it will unlock love it will certainly unlock some difficulties I can tell you that very vividly from my own life but it's well worth it in the long run so no, don't fall prey to the despair thing I understand that but that's not healthy either that's not a good reaction if that makes sense.
[2:26:33] I just think that it's hard not to feel despair when you, Um, I've essentially ruined my chances of being a mom, and...
[2:26:53] But you're only 30. If you were 40, maybe you would have that. But you've still got 10 years. What do you mean you've ruined your chances?
[2:27:02] That's a geriatric pregnancy if you're lucky but.
[2:27:06] No i mean geriatric pregnancy doesn't mean you can't have kids it just means that a little bit of extra attention needs to get paid there are tons of women who have kids well into their 30s even into their early 40s although you know that's certainly pushing it a little bit but you've got you've got time and and as soon as you take that energy and commit to really focusing on being direct and honest with all sympathy as to you know, where you're coming from, you come from a family that doesn't really tell much of the truth, and you've come from people who haven't done as much as they should, in my humble opinion, to really work to protect you. And so I hope that you will recognize this as a great learning opportunity. I'm sorry that you weren't protected. I'm sorry that you didn't call in before, but obviously that's a decision I can't make for you. Maybe this is just the right time. Maybe this is, you know, you recognize what the problem is. I mean, wouldn't it have been terrible if we'd had this long call and we hadn't even figured out what the problem is? That would be terrible, wouldn't it? And we figure out the problem, and it's like, oh, if you keep having a bad stomach because you're lactose intolerant, so just stop drinking lactose and you'll be fine, you can either look back and say, oh my gosh, I had a lot of stomach problems, or you can look forward and say, oh great, now I know how to not have stomach problems for the rest of my life. Do you see what I mean?
[2:28:22] So be of good cheer. This is good news. And try to stay off the dramatic language like, I'll never have kids. I've ruined my life. That is programming yourself with despair. That is programming. You've really got to be careful about the language you use with regards to yourself, right? This is not any kind of massive disaster. I was older than you when I met the love of my life, and I became a father, and you have lots of time, if you really work on committing to tell the truth now, which I'm sure you will, then love can be yours for the taking before you even know it.
[2:28:59] All right.
[2:28:59] Will you keep me posted about how things are going?
[2:29:03] Sure.
[2:29:04] All right. Well, thanks for a really, really great conversation. Big hugs to you and massive amounts of sympathy and be of good cheer as best you can, all right? And we lost her. Okay, well, we just made it to the end there. This is Stefan Molyneux. Of course, if you find these conversations helpful, freedommail.com slash donate. Love you guys and love the callers. And please don't wait 10 years in the future for people. Thanks, Emil. Bye.
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