0:00 - Struggling Mom's Journey
52:17 - The Weight of Expectations
1:13:49 - Understanding Childhood Dynamics
1:16:25 - The Role of Parental Conflict
1:22:21 - Breaking the Cycle of Emotional Distance
1:34:37 - The Burden of Expectations
1:49:38 - Embracing the Chaos of Parenting
In this episode, we delve into a heartfelt conversation with a listener, a mom of two young children, who is struggling to navigate the challenges of motherhood. Having experienced a chaotic environment since her youngest was born just four months ago, she articulates the immense pressures of raising a toddler and an infant simultaneously. With her fiancé working long hours and both kids requiring constant attention, she often finds herself feeling overwhelmed and exhausted. We explore her feelings of inadequacy as she grapples with her parenting style and the impact of her current situation on her ability to connect with her children.
The mom shares her daily struggles, from the difficulty of managing two children’s needs to the emotional toll this takes on her relationship with her fiancé and her own mental health. Her toddler, who is high-energy and used to being the center of attention, is having a hard time adjusting to the new family dynamics. This leads to interactions where he sometimes expresses frustration towards his younger sibling, which adds to her anxiety and sense of being overwhelmed. The conversation reveals her deepest fears about not being a good enough mother while the constant neediness of her children leaves her yearning for a moment of peace.
As the dialogue unfolds, we discuss the cyclical nature of stress within parenting—how her stress can escalate the conflicts between her kids, feeding into her feelings of being burdened by motherhood. We consider how she perceives her relationships, both with her children and with her fiancé, and how parenting stress is influencing how she experiences her role as a mother. There is a focus on understanding how her upbringing and her mother’s parenting methods have influenced her current mindset and behaviors.
Through gentle probing and thoughtful questions, we uncover layers of emotional depth and societal expectations. The pressure she feels not only stems from her responsibilities as a mother but also from inherited beliefs about what good parenting should look like. We contemplate the idea that the love and affection she yearns to share with her kids might be hindered by her fears, exhaustion, and the invisible standards set by her own childhood experiences.
Towards the end of the episode, we shift towards constructive solutions, emphasizing the importance of cultivating self-love, recognizing her worth as a mother, and embracing the beautiful chaos that comes with parenting. The discussion pivots to actionable strategies: simplifying her daily routines, prioritizing moments of self-care, and fostering meaningful connections with her children without the pressure of perfection.
This episode serves as a poignant reminder that motherhood is indeed a journey filled with challenges, but through understanding and reframing our experiences, we can pave the way to a more connected and fulfilling parenting experience. The listener walks away with more clarity, a lighter heart, and practical tools to navigate her parenting landscape with grace and love, ultimately enriching both her life and the lives of her children.
[0:00] Hi Stef, I am a struggling mom of two. My oldest just turned two last weekend and the youngest is now four months old. Ever since I gave birth, things have been chaotic. Having two kids so young means that they both need me all day long and also all night long for the little one. I have help, a nanny, but that just shapes the peak of stress. She plays with the older one when I'm preoccupied with the younger or cooking or laundry, etc. I'm on all day long. wrong. Talking or playing with the older, taking care of the household or the baby. And I just don't get rest at night either. My fiance, we're getting married tomorrow. He's the father of both kids. And me, we are fighting all the time. I don't know how to stop the fighting since I'm just exhausted and desperately need a break. My current state also impacts my parenting. I'm much less patient with the kids. And I still need to protect the younger one from the older one. When the older one is frustrated, he hits the younger one or or he lies on top of him, or bites him. And I always need to be on guard. If I fail, then the baby cries, and I tell the older one off and tell him to apologize. He doesn't comply. When that's the case, I pick up the crying baby and walk out of the room. And then the toddler follows me desperately crying out my name. It's just a lot, but I really don't know how else to react when he mistreats the younger one.
[1:21] I, of course, try to prevent it all day, but it does else happen about once a day or once every other day that the toddler makes the baby cry please share your advice with an exhausted mama that is desperately trying to do her best.
[1:35] Right okay okay okay so i mean that's the beginning i'm sure of course that there is a large amount of uh detail to go on from there so help me out hit me with more.
[1:49] More hey you with more so um like pregnancy my older the older one of the two that i have he is a very high energy um but as our like and he needs a lot of stimulation he wants to be out he wants to move he wants stuff to happen he's learning quickly so but but that's uh i guess Yes, this is to be expected because that's just the way my fiance and me are. And he got a lot of attention and he was dethroned when the younger one came along four months ago. And that was a bit difficult. And I had help. My soon-to-be mother-in-law, she came and she helped out for a month and a half because I couldn't have coped. The older one was just acting out. And it's like as a mother, when you have a newborn, your mind is always with the newborn. Like it's really hard to...
[2:50] Give the newborn to someone else so you can have one-on-one time with a toddler because it's so tiny. And then whatever happens, you always have the baby in your hands because it's a newborn and it wants to be held. It wants some physical touch. And yeah, so that first month and a half, I had help. And then I also had a babysitter here and there because it was still rough. But ever since then, I'm trying to navigate or I was trying to navigate the days alone. on my partner he went to work at you know eight or nine o'clock and he came home at six but currently he's in a very intense phase at work for probably another month maximum months month and a half and during that time I now have a nanny but it's just it's a lot to handle and I'm just.
[3:36] I'm just curious how do people do this with two under two how in the world did people have six kids when they didn't have like dishwashers and washing machine and like I feel like I'm at my my limits with two and i want a big family i i grew up as the oldest of four but is it is it just quantity over quality just quantity over quality because i can give you an example of i think it was yesterday i prepared lunch or i just heated up something because there's no cooking when you're alone with both kids so i i prepared lunch something that i still have in the freezer from um from a while ago and then i i put that on the table i put my toddler on the on the chair and he starts eating and then i turn around i think i grabbed some cloth or some some for to clean up something or whatever and as i turn around when i turn back around he has knocked over a glass of it was must have been some sticky liquid inside and they just poured all over the furniture and on the floor and i'm like oh okay um i start cleaning up that mess and you know clean the floor, clean the furniture.
[4:47] And then by the time I'm done and I want to sit down, he's done eating. So he gets off the chair, I clean him up a little bit, and then he wants to play because that's what he wants to do. He doesn't play independently yet. And then he's just standing there crying, mama, come play with me. And I'm like, oh, can I just eat first? And until I'm done, he's just standing there crying my name, which is so loud that the baby gets upset because at one point it's overwhelming for the baby so the baby starts crying and I'm just there like oh oh my god what am I doing and, that's stuff like that happens at least once a day like it's just constant.
[5:28] It's just constant. Of course, the toddler, when I'm out, I can't put the baby in the bassinet and have it laying there for half an hour while I play with the toddler, because the toddler still wants me to go down the slide with him, climb up ropes. Yeah, the toddler doesn't, even though there's other kids, he doesn't play with other kids. He's not at that age yet. He's interested in looking. He wants to do what they do, but he wants me to join. and i'm just there with a baby and yeah like i can play in the sandbox having the baby on my knee and like kind of playing with a shovel and stuff with the toddler while having the baby on my lap but most things i can't and um so let's just keep the baby out of the nanny out of the picture but how do people navigate this is it my maybe you can help me do i need to adjust my mindset like should I be more okay with not giving the baby as much attention and letting it low-key complain? To me, I want to tend to the needs. So when my toddler wants me, I want to tend. And when my baby wants me, I want to tend. And when they both, I feel super bad. I just feel super bad. Yeah.
[6:42] I mean, it feels like a no-win situation, right?
[6:45] Exactly.
[6:45] Right, right. No, I sympathize with that. Well, I, as my lordly experience with one daughter, i'm in a perfect position to explain to you how to deal with multiple kids no i mean i have friends we've had to call in so come on yeah no i i i have friends we've we've talked about this and i was one of two and uh i have friends who have six kids i have one friend who has seven kids so their number yeah i mean i so and i've had of course i worked at the daycare with 25 kids or 30 kids at times so i have i just wanted to let you know uh i i have some knowledge of this but i don't have the direct experience within my own household so um just be be aware of that i'm sure you are but uh just for everyone who's like how how dare he he's got one nice compliant little girl and although she's not exactly compliant but so yeah i just i just want to give you that caveat up front just just so you don't feel like i'm just oh just do this you know like like i know exactly what I'm talking about. So I just wanted to put that up front. Okay, let's start with some of the basics. What kind of sleep are you getting? Like actual, restful, real sleep?
[7:55] Um... Last night, I think I got close to two hours in a stretch at some point, but the rest was less than an hour. He's currently teething, the younger one, so he wants lots of comfort. And we don't sleep train until six months. It's just the recommendations I follow, and it's worked well with the older one. so um yeah so some i think three four nights ago i had a three-hour stretch and the rest was two hour stretches so that's kind of okay but like he doesn't have the younger one doesn't have awake periods at night like he goes down and then he only wakes up and needs comforting sometimes that's padding picking him up for two minutes sometimes that's breastfeeding and the knee suckles like three times then he falls asleep but every time i of course need to like wake up and see okay what is it that you need this time so and i assume of course.
[8:58] When the kids are up they're not napping at the same time so you can't.
[9:01] Crash during the day is that right no exactly exactly and.
[9:05] What is the schedule for the four month and the two year old for for napping.
[9:09] Uh the schedule for napping for the four month old he goes down at eight o'clock so he just went down uh now uh for for For the night sleep, he sleeps with frequent wake-ups until seven in the morning. And the older one goes to bed between 10 and 10.30 and also wakes up between six and seven. Oh, wow.
[9:29] So he's a night owl.
[9:31] He doesn't need any sleep. I can put him to bed earlier, but then he's going to be up before six. And it's rough with a kid that just doesn't need a lot of sleep. But it comes from my partner. He doesn't need a lot of sleep either, unfortunately. unfortunately now.
[9:46] What about daytime naps.
[9:48] Um the older one it takes i would say 45 minutes to one hour uh one nap still and i can't cut it out it gets overtired after i and the younger um, i would say about three naps of maybe 30 minutes um yeah something like that maybe one is one hour and then the other one another one would be a bit shorter right.
[10:16] Okay so tell me a little bit about your um sorry when you said you get married friday.
[10:21] Yes tomorrow tomorrow yes oh well congratulations sir now i feel the sudden time.
[10:28] Urgency because i'm sure there's stuff that you need to get done but we'll and it's obviously fairly important okay well congratulations on that.
[10:34] Uh so tell me.
[10:36] A little bit about the history um you guys history together.
[10:41] Um we have met about three years ago i think yes it's been we've met three years ago uh online on tinder um we connected over podcast he recommended me to listen he recommended to that i listen to you and i looked at your wikipedia i was like are you sure sounds very controversial he's like yeah give it a shot listen okay how good looking is this guy that you're willing to listen to.
[11:04] Me after reading wikipedia come on.
[11:07] The guy's got to be.
[11:08] Like giga chad.
[11:11] I think he's fairly good looking right no i was convinced because uh the conversations were just flowy there was connection it was just super interesting and uh yeah if you're looking for something real and someone is interesting then uh that that's just catchy i haven't even met him by then right he had some bathroom selfies in that profile i was like i wasn't that convinced because if someone has bathroom selfies come on bathroom selfies oh.
[11:37] Bathroom selfies Wow. See, now bathroom singing selfies, I can understand because the echo is nice, but bathroom selfies. All right. Well, you know what? That is a confident man. Here's the most controversial podcast known to man and a picture of me in the bathroom.
[11:55] Well, he was fully clothed, but it was a bathroom selfie. No, no, I get that.
[11:59] He's not straining, like red-faced. I get that. Okay. Yeah, yeah. All right.
[12:05] Yeah so we've connected we've connected over you it was very um and i haven't looked back like i've been hooked on your podcast and can't listen as much at the moment but uh um yeah he he introduced me to you i haven't looked back since it changed my life you've changed my life um i'm very grateful to have been introduced to you but we started dating and uh within i think less than half a year we moved in together and then within a year of us starting to date i uh got pregnant um, yeah and then there's uh i've had a ring on my finger ever since uh we found out i was pregnant but we delayed the um we delayed getting married i feel like we've delayed for oh and then i said oh but i don't want to i don't don't want to have a wedding while i'm pregnant i don't want to have a wedding while i'm breastfeeding and then you know i get pregnant again something like right after stopping to breastfeed.
[13:06] This vague, and then this happened. And then I got struck by lightning out of a clear blue sky. Like, what do you mean you got pregnant?
[13:15] Well, the first time wasn't planned.
[13:18] Okay, let's, come on, come on.
[13:21] I know, I know contraception, but I know, I take my temperature and it tells me when I ovulate. But between Christmas and New Year's... Oh, you're doing the rhythm method? Yes.
[13:32] What are you, the backup band for James Brown? Okay.
[13:34] No, it works very well. I know exactly.
[13:37] Okay, sorry. Are there two babies in the house?
[13:40] No, the second one was planned. The first one was not. The problem being that it was between Christmas and New Year's and I lost track of time. Yes. And then I was like, oh shit. Oh shit, yesterday that wasn't so smart. But then it was too late for the pill after. Yes.
[13:55] All right.
[13:57] Yeah, so he was a New Year's baby.
[14:00] All right. Just checking there. Yes.
[14:03] Yeah, I... But we did, even before I got pregnant, we had the talk and we said, let's start trying by the end of summer. So I guess it was a bit more than half a year too early. But we were on the same track and we knew what we were doing. And I knew this is the guy and I was committed, he was committed. it and uh.
[14:28] Do you have a clock ticky thing back then um or is that where there was some sort of let's try sooner rather than later um.
[14:39] I'm 33 now so.
[14:40] Minor yeah okay minor yes.
[14:44] So i was uh i was 30 when i got pregnant.
[14:47] Right and.
[14:48] I would have been 31 if it was according to plan.
[14:51] And how How old is he, your age?
[14:55] Three years, four years older than I am.
[14:57] Four years older. Okay, got it.
[14:58] Yes.
[14:59] Okay, so, but you're being ringed and collared tomorrow. Okay, that's good.
[15:08] Exactly, exactly.
[15:10] Okay, so... What's the history of your conflict with, I don't know, let's just call him Bob, right? So your boyfriend, right? Your fiancé, sorry, soon to be husband. What's your history of having conflicts with him?
[15:26] It used to be very adult or conflict.
[15:32] You know, you have disagreements and you sit down, you talk them through.
[15:37] Um usually it would sometimes okay maybe 50 of the time if the conflicts were rough it would involve tears from my side but i could i usually told him it's just tears ignore the tears let's just focus on the matter and uh i try to foster a what could i have done better instead of saying you did this and this made me and this made me feel um blah blah blah so i i think it used to be good until we had the first uh child and that just adds a child just adds so much stress it just adds like you're constantly on stress level nine out of ten when without a child are you saying this like an objective fact or for me for me sorry okay yes i i am constant and it's just a stress factor because you have so much less time to yourself of course that is to be expected it um but at that very little time to yourself he's always needed very little sleep so there's little time for the relationship you put him to bed and and i basically go to bed when i put him to bed it started at half a year when he was going to bed at like 9 30 or 9 45 until 7 and it's it's just always been very late where i put him to bed or he puts him to bed and in the meantime i'm I'm brushing my teeth because I'm, yeah, I need my sleep too.
[17:04] So let me, let me ask you this, right? So, If when I got married, if after I got married, I said to my wife, I'm really, really stressed because I don't get the feeling I could just date around anymore. I mean, that would be a bit odd, right?
[17:24] Yes, yes, yes, yes.
[17:25] Right. In other words, I can't just choose for myself who I date anymore. It's just not about me anymore. It's really stressful. stressful um i can't imagine what my wife would say but it probably wouldn't be overly complimentary, and the reason i'm saying this is you're saying well it's really stressful because i don't have time for myself anymore.
[17:47] But your baby is yourself, don't you want to sit on the couch doing nothing for i don't know like 50 minutes at minimum and not just clean up and go to bed and then start start over the next day like, So what I'm trying to get out of this call, let me just try to contain this a little bit because we could go a gazillion different ways.
[18:14] You don't have to contain it at all for me.
[18:16] At all. Anyway, go on.
[18:19] Expansive is good.
[18:20] It i'm trying to get out of this call how where am i how can i just adjust my mindset to be less stressed all day like the two kids needing me stresses me out and, there's i would say almost every night in the evening i cry i cry even if it's just one minute because it's yeah all joking aside i'm really sorry.
[18:47] I'm really sorry for that i mean that's That's very sad and tragic. I absolutely guarantee you we can fix it. Like 100%. 100%.
[18:55] Got it, got it. All right, so I'm trying to get out how can I adjust my mindset. It's like people tell me, oh, but you have a cleaning lady. Yeah, she cleans the apartment for like two hours. But that's not the two, like that's two hours. But give me someone that runs my household. That would actually...
[19:12] Sorry, is that the nanny?
[19:15] No, that's a cleaning lady. The nanny is just something temporary that we have at home.
[19:19] Sorry, I can hear all of these women's heads exploding across the universe. When you're like, well, it's an apartment, so it's not that much space to take care of. I have a nanny and a cleaning lady, and I'm overwhelmed.
[19:29] Okay, let's shave those out. The nanny is something temporary. She's going to be gone when this intense phase is over, where my partner is just working. But this cleaning lady, we've had her for a while. I've had her since we've had kids. And it's, Having someone help you for three hours to have a clean apartment once a week is super nice. But that's two, three hours, of course, it would add if we didn't have her. But that's not the work. The work is doing laundry every day, cleaning up after your kids have made a mess at the table, cooking, unloading the dishwasher, loading the dishwasher.
[20:12] I've made a stay-at-home dad, so I know what you're talking about.
[20:16] Out i mean all the people right cleaning lady that uh she doesn't make me it's not like oh now because i have a cleaning lady i get to go to the spa i have have a day off no i get a clean apartment once once a week and someone cleans the toilet but i still run through with a vacuum cleaner every once in a while because you know stuff gets spilled and yeah all right are you.
[20:38] Ready for our dive.
[20:39] All right all right how.
[20:42] Involved was your mother in your upbringing um.
[20:47] My mom was just managing us kids i do not recall her playing with us um but not but she because because my parents had a house with a big front yard so there was a lot of space we lived way way in the countryside so there was a no one around so we could just go out and play and climb trees and there was well not when you were like not when you were.
[21:17] Babies and toddlers though right i mean we're talking about the age that you're doing right.
[21:21] Yes um when i don't i don't have any memories before i was like four i think or five so.
[21:29] Your mother is manages and did your mother take time for herself in in the way that you're talking about.
[21:37] No okay.
[21:40] So if she She wasn't playing with the kids and she was just managing them. Why wouldn't she have time? I mean, I'm sure you spend a lot of time interacting and playing with your kids. So why wouldn't your mother have time for herself if she was just managing the kids rather than interacting with you all?
[21:56] Because she had a much bigger household. She had a much bigger household to run. And she was helping my dad because my dad is running a company, still is. And she was doing the finances and the books. the bookkeeping and she did that at night um and then she had us kids during the day and yeah i, don't think she had time to herself. And even if she did, even now, I can see it now when she, she doesn't have time for herself because whenever she has this, the one minute to herself, then she's like, oh, but I need to, I don't know, fix, I need to do something in the garden. Like she doesn't sit down and read a book, but she's like, oh, I could, you know, dig a hole in my garden and play something.
[22:41] So she's like restless, like a workaholic, right?
[22:44] Exactly. Exactly. And I think she just found if she has if she could have time for herself she fills it up so she's always stressed and always uh at full capacity and i try to not have that happen i try to make sure i have, i don't know you tell me what i do well you've you've been a stay-at-home dad i feel like i i don't keep my household super clean i i have ready-made lunches and still i we're having two kids i get maybe um we have um like we buy dumplings or we have we've cooked big curries for like you know a gallon pot and then we freeze down uh portions so i can have at lunch when i've my kids when i'm home with the kids and i give them lunch i can take it out of the freezer instead instead of having to cook a lunch um oh so you've cooked it before you just yes get.
[23:45] Lots of portions.
[23:46] Exactly exactly okay not always but most of the time or i i give yeah um so i even though i try to be mindful of my time i still play with with the older maybe an hour every day but don't i have no idea what i do the other an hour the other yes i i have an hour of uninterrupted playtime with him otherwise i am with a baby or the baby's like low-key crying so i'm walking around trying to soothe him and uh no but you can't soothe the toddler you.
[24:18] Can't soothe the children if you're stressed.
[24:20] Maybe that's maybe that's what's going on here otherwise.
[24:26] It's like calm down.
[24:29] I mean.
[24:30] No, they sense you. And of course, you know, the stress comes through the breast milk and right. You can't count the babies if you're stressed. They're picking up on your stress and they're anxious. Why is mom so stressed? There must be danger. And that's why they want to stay close. They're sensing danger from your stress. And that's why they're always clinging and freak out when you're not around. Because they think there's a lion in the apartment.
[25:01] I see. I see. Yeah. You could be onto something.
[25:05] I could be.
[25:06] You could be.
[25:07] Because you said your stress is like 9 or 10, right?
[25:10] Yes. Yes.
[25:11] So that's maximum stress close to it, right? That's like hands trembling, heart pounding, sweats. Right?
[25:20] Yes.
[25:21] So how are your kids supposed to relax if their primary caregiver is having palpitations? Because your stress is a sense of imminent danger.
[25:37] Yes, I see what you're trying to say here.
[25:41] So that's, I never try to say anything. So that's what we have to try and figure out. because if you relax, then your kids will relax. And the more relaxed you are, the less clingy your children will be. You can imagine, if the mother's worried, the children don't want to wander far, right?
[26:06] Yes, yes.
[26:07] So, and you're feeling almost like buried under children's needs, right?
[26:12] Mm-hmm.
[26:13] Right. So then we have to figure out what's going on with the stress.
[26:20] I think I have something there. I, how do I formulate this? I'm desperately trying to do my best to put my kids needs first I want to I want to make sure they they have their needs are met and they grow up happy yes I I want them to have a good childhood and I want I want to make sure that I they have they know they have my attention and that I want to play with them and I want to foster a good relationship with them. So I was working three days a week still during the first year of my, no, from when he was half a year old to when he was one and a half, my oldest. I was still working three days a week, but we've had a calling before, you and me, and you pushed for me to stop. So I've quit work. I'm now a stay-at-home mom. and I feel like it's going better, but I really want to be there for my kids, and I want my kids to have a good relationship.
[27:35] Sorry to interrupt. Just remind me who was taking care of your son when you were working the three days a week?
[27:41] My mother was taking one day, and two days he was in childcare.
[27:46] Okay, got it. And is your mother around helping at all these days? Yes.
[27:51] She still takes him one day a week, but that's it because she's always busy doing stuff.
[27:56] Sorry, your mother takes the kids one day a week?
[27:59] Only one. She only takes the older. I don't want to give her both. She still takes the older because the older one, he loves her because now she plays with him so well.
[28:08] Hang on. You have a cleaner. I know right now you have a nanny. You have a mother who takes your child one day a week. So you have some help and support. And, of course, you have. a husband. I'm going to just call him our husband because, you know, by the time this is out, he'll be your husband, right? So you have a husband. Now, how is your Bob, right? The guy we're calling Bob. How is your husband with childcare and taking care of the kids?
[28:36] Let's not look at the past month and month or month and a half to come. Usually he's very good at interacting with the older, not so good with a baby or he could be, but he just like, he's just is always like oh maybe baby needs boob here we go please take him back i'll take the older but he's very good with the older um he's very good playing with him if that answers your question if that's what you were getting to okay.
[29:03] So how many um how many hours a day is your husband interacting with his son on average.
[29:11] Um maybe two hours usually not right now but maybe two usually maybe two hours oh.
[29:21] That's not bad not bad so he comes home at what time you said your son goes to bed at sort of 10 or 10 30 your oldest.
[29:28] So what give me.
[29:30] The sort of typical day with your husband and his son.
[29:32] Um well our son wakes everyone up because yeah when he comes in our bedroom, um and then we start the day let's say at seven he wakes everyone up and um we make breakfast my um soon pre-husband is out of the house at 8 30 and he works until till six ish maybe he's home at 6 30 on average i would say and then yeah he comes home and then either he takes the older one and then i can cook dinner or we go out uh and have dinner we have dinner delivered we have something in the freezer yeah but dinner time and then okay i'm trying not.
[30:15] To point out that you also go out for dinner have stuff delivered and have stuff in the freezer which does cut down on cooking time so you have a lot of.
[30:22] Good cut down on cooking time i i could No.
[30:25] No, but you do, to some degree. I would say four out of five days. Sorry, so four out of five days you're making the food or you're getting something from a freezer, right?
[30:32] Yes. Four out of five days I cook, and then that one day is either a freezer or something outside of home. We're invited at friends' houses, but it's not like we go out three days a week.
[30:44] Okay, just checking.
[30:45] Maybe one day, and they could be buying or invited or something.
[30:50] Okay, and what about the weekends?
[30:54] The weekends we spend together as a family, the four of us. well going with friends doing something with friends going someplace or spending it in in the area here where we live but in the weekends we are we spend it as a family okay.
[31:13] So your wife sorry your mother takes your eldest one day a week and then.
[31:18] You and.
[31:18] Your husband are sharing during childcare duties, Saturday and Sunday, right?
[31:22] Exactly.
[31:23] Okay, got it. So you were saying that you have some idea where the stress is coming on, and then you said, well, I want my children to have a good childhood, right? But that's not, I mean, I'm not saying you don't want that sort of in your mind, but do you see how the stress is affecting your kids?
[31:46] So if you say.
[31:47] Well, I want my child, I want my children to have a great childhood, and I'm so stressed about that, that they're really tense, right? Then there's something not right in that formulation, right?
[32:00] Yes.
[32:00] I'm so consumed with giving my children a good childhood that I'm stressed, and that's interfering with the quality of my children's childhood.
[32:10] Yes.
[32:12] So that means you have, I mean, I would call it a lacerating standard, which means you have a standard that is punitive to you, rather than encouraging to you.
[32:26] What is punitive?
[32:28] So punitive is like, let's say there are two personal trainers, right? And one is like, get the hell to the gym, you lazy fat maggot, you know, that kind of thing, right? And you have another one who's like, hey, let's get some movement in, let's go have some fun, let's throw a ball around, let's run around. That's going to be encouraging and positive, right? So a lacerating standard is something that is punishment for yourself. You can't ever meet it, and it actually destroys the goal that you want.
[32:58] Yes.
[32:59] Okay, so let's talk about where these punishing or lacerating standards would come from. sorry I'm going to ask another question I just asked you a question I'm going to ask another one so how can you meet the standard how will you know I want my kids to have this great wonderful childhood how are you going to know if and when you've met the standard how would you know.
[33:27] If they once they interact peacefully I think when they play together and they play well, yeah, Of course, they can't do that yet. So how could I meet the standard?
[33:43] Sorry, you're saying they can't play peacefully together yet?
[33:49] Now, the baby is four months. All you can do is roll and you can't even really reach for toys yet. So the interactions have gotten a lot better. After I've given birth, the older one, you couldn't leave him alone with the younger one. At first, he felt the lack of attention. Suddenly, there's this new object or this new person in the house that requires attention.
[34:17] This myth that the older siblings resent the younger siblings is a myth. It's not true in every case. So, do you know what is the thing that drives sibling conflict the most?
[34:32] Lack of attention from the mother or from the parent? No.
[34:37] No, it's parental stress.
[34:40] Okay, interesting.
[34:41] Parental stress sets up a situation in the mind of the children that resources are scarce.
[34:48] Right?
[34:49] Now, if resources are scarce, it's win-lose with the kids.
[34:56] Yes. Right?
[34:57] And then you want to make sure you survive. So if you have two kids and two toys, they're probably not going to fight. If you have two kids and one toy, they're more likely to fight, if that makes sense, because the resources are scarce.
[35:08] Yes.
[35:09] So if you're stressed, then your older child is going to look at your baby as a dangerous competitor for scarce resources. sources. And he's going to feel frustrated and scared when you're spending a lot of time with the baby. So let's just sort of picture in our evolution, parental stress is because there's danger in the environment. It could be scarcity, it could be predators, it could be war, it could be disease, but there's danger, right? Now, if your oldest child, your son, your eldest son if he is sensing danger in the environment he's going to be very needy and he's going to resent and fear the time you spend with the baby right because if there's let's say that there are wolves around that are snatching up children the more time you spend taking care of the baby the more danger he's exposed to if that makes sense yes yes so your stress is i think driving sibling conflict because your stress is there aren't enough resources to go around and if there aren't enough resources to go around then your oldest child is going to resent the baby.
[36:28] Yes i see i see.
[36:31] And okay sorry sorry go ahead.
[36:35] As no keep going i'm i was going to wrap up this thought saying okay i see that but how do i degrees my stress.
[36:42] Oh yeah no no we'll get you can't just be like oh.
[36:44] Your fear of heights uh meh it does it's not rational so lose it okay.
[36:49] Uh no i i get that and we'll we'll get there for sure but i just want you to see the purpose of reducing the stress like how high the stakes are and i hate to say that reducing your stress is high stakes because that's going to drive your stress up but uh it is it is people say well you know the older sibling resents the younger sibling and resents time it's like, nope, I know families where the kids all get along together well. But the one thing that is common is that the parents aren't stressed. I mean, on occasion, sure, everybody gets it on occasion, but it's not chronic.
[37:21] I see okay people keep telling me the six months mark is when it gets easier when the younger one is six months and i'm like a month and a half or almost a month between a month and a half and two months ago i can do this well.
[37:35] And you can but it shouldn't be parenting should not be gritting your teeth.
[37:39] And just trying.
[37:40] To survive like like some sort of guantanamo torture situation right so.
[37:46] Yeah i want to enjoy the days and i don't get me wrong i'm not stressed all day but there's just all these situations where where you i'm lacking two hands hence we have a nanny well no but it's.
[37:59] A cycle right so the cycle is you're stressed which drives neediness desperation anxiety and conflict among your kids which makes you more stressed which drives more like that kind of stuff right.
[38:10] Yes and then there's going to be more of these situations situations. Right.
[38:14] And then of course, you know, it's going to feel like, oh gosh, I can't have another kid. Like if you want three or whatever, oh God, I can't go through it. Like it becomes, very tough to have a larger family if that's what you're interested in, because it just feels like I can't go back there. Don't make me go back to prison. Right?
[38:31] Yes, exactly. Exactly. I, you know, I, I, we're going to get married tomorrow and my husband, he wants four. I had three siblings. We were a family with four kids. And I wouldn't trade it for a thing. I love big families. I want my kids to grow up in a big family. And he said he would take on my name if I give him four kids. So I want to be the mom that has four kids. I want a big family. I love big families.
[39:06] So, yeah, the problem with two kids... One of the many problems with two kids is that with only two kids, it becomes very tough when you guys get older. Because there aren't as many kids to share the burden of aging parents.
[39:24] Yes.
[39:25] Sort of one of many sort of factors. Okay. So.
[39:30] Well, can we go on another tangent here? Well, what is your take on it? Do you choose quantity over quality? Or if you had the choice, would you choose quantity over quality? You know, I know someone that he's one of 11 kids, and you can't parent 11 kids well. Like, you're not going to have enough time. You want enough time with the kids, but you can't have enough time for 11 kids.
[39:58] No, but what is subtracted from the parents is added to the siblings. I'm not saying that 11 kids is ideal, but you have less parental time, but much more sibling time. And if the siblings are older and the parents have modeled good behavior, then the sibling stuff is great. But right now, you don't have quality or quantity. In other words, you don't have a lot of kids. And the reason you're contacting me is because there's some deficiencies in your enjoyment of parenting already.
[40:32] Yes.
[40:33] Right, so whatever, even if we put the false dichotomy of one or the other, you're not getting either at the moment, right?
[40:40] Mm-hmm.
[40:41] So let's just focus on that.
[40:43] Okay, got it.
[40:44] Okay, so what are you having conflicts with your husband about?
[40:52] Um... let me think our last conflict was last weekend uh we were let's just say we were out and uh, um and usually like he's working so much at the moment that whenever the kids are in bed he, he doesn't take it as his run like he doesn't have the spare energy to feel that it's his responsibility to you know unload the dishwasher or start a load of laundry or hang up the a load of laundry or whatever it may be so i'm sorry what's his work.
[41:29] Schedule at the moment.
[41:31] Um he works until maybe nine some sometimes longer and then he comes home he helps to put the older to bed and then he he works from home a little bit um so hang on hang.
[41:43] On hang on so this guy's working 10 11 12 hours a day including the commute.
[41:47] Yes and.
[41:49] You want him to also do house password? You've got to be kidding me.
[41:57] Yeah, I guess.
[41:58] You've got to be kidding me. Does he have a nanny to help him at work? Does he have a cleaner to help him at work? Can he hire someone to do part of his job? Does he have a mother who does part of his work a day a week?
[42:13] Yeah, I see. I see your point. Okay.
[42:15] No, no, what am I missing here? What do you mean he works 12 hours a day? Which I guess you both agreed to too, because it gives you some benefit in the long run. Guys working 12 hours a day and you're like, well, you haven't cleaned out the dishwasher.
[42:28] No. So, no. Now you're wrong. I'm sorry. Now you're wrong because the conflict is not me saying you haven't cleaned out the dishwasher. The conflict is I do the entire household. I do 95% of it, I would say, at the moment. And then I have... zero like i have zero downtime even with the nanny or yeah i have zero downtime and then um we on the weekend she she's not uh she's not here with us um and then we are out and about and and i've told him repeatedly over the past few days uh at that time like i need a break i i need 30 minutes somewhere can i can i get 30 minutes um and it hasn't happened and we're out and about we're walking somewhere and i'm just zoning out and suddenly he says you know it's not so nice if uh if i i feel like i'm talking to a ghost you don't you don't respond to anything i say and then i just say okay so hang on no you're taking.
[43:32] Me on estrogen-based story time here which i i definitely want to get.
[43:35] To but you said i was wrong and.
[43:38] If i'm wrong i'm wrong i've been but my My understanding was you were saying that, you know, he gets home at nine o'clock and the kids are heading to bed and he doesn't have the time or energy to empty the dishwasher. That's what I, that was my understanding of what you told me.
[43:53] Yes.
[43:54] So then when I say, well, no, he's not going to do any housework because he's working 10, 11, 12 hours a day. And then you said, no, no, no, you've got that wrong. So do you expect him to empty the dishwasher or not? I do not.
[44:07] I do not. I do not.
[44:08] Okay, so then why would you bring up, you said, what's our big conflict? And you said the big conflict is he's not emptying the dishwasher.
[44:13] No, okay, sorry. Okay, can we restart this part of the conversation? The big conflict was him wanting to interact with me, but me not having the energy for an interaction. And that's just blowing up.
[44:30] Okay, so now, hang on. So now this is like when you're out walking around on the weekend and you feel spaced out.
[44:36] Yes.
[44:37] Yes, sorry. Okay, so I'm not trying to nitpick here. I just want to understand why the dishwasher thing came up earlier.
[44:44] It came up because I'm trying to tell you that I don't have any downtime. This is why.
[44:51] Okay, so help me understand. What is his downtime?
[44:57] When the oldest one is in bed, he sits on the couch and, I don't know, watches YouTube videos or something. He sits on the couch and watches YouTube video until he feels energetic enough to either go work another two hours or go to bed because I don't wake him up. He's on his own schedule. In the morning when the oldest one comes in, right now, I take both kids out and I let my husband sleep. okay so.
[45:32] If i understand this.
[45:33] Rightly he's.
[45:33] Working 12 hours a day and then sometimes for another couple of hours at night but he also spends some time watching youtube videos.
[45:40] Exactly and i don't get that time i guess but he he's the one making money he's the one who works like he needs that to get up the energy to go back to another two hours of work and uh yes and i wish i had that That's like, okay, I can't go on. Let me sit on the couch for half an hour, watch some YouTube videos, and then I get to empty the dishwasher and finish my kind of work. This is the last conflict we've had because I don't maybe take, maybe I should take that out time, but I don't know. It just gets abstracted from my sleep if I do. My sleep is really very precious. Just sit on the couch and do nothing. thing like do not be present in not get stuff done um so that was our conflict because.
[46:33] Okay so is it physically possible at any time during the week for you to take 20 minutes a half an hour, No, it is. No, it is. Because you've got your, on the Friday or whenever it is, your mother takes your oldest, right? And then the youngest, I think you said, has two 45-minute naps, right?
[46:54] Yes, yes, yes. Well, we're planning a wedding.
[46:57] We're getting married and that's my... So there's an hour and a half that you could do.
[47:07] I hope to, okay, I hope to do that starting next week. This is the plan. because we're getting married Friday. And I understand that.
[47:17] I'm not sure what's happening right now. So how long has your mother been taking your eldest a day a week?
[47:24] For a year and a half now.
[47:26] Okay. So for a year and a half, you have an hour and a half, one day a week, where you don't have to take care of a kid, right? Because your youngest is sleeping.
[47:40] Okay.
[47:41] And I'm not saying that's perfect, but why wouldn't you take that time and sit on the couch and do nothing?
[47:51] Am I also a workaholic, maybe?
[47:53] I'm not trying to be confrontational here. I'm genuinely curious. If you say, well, all I want is 20 minutes, a half an hour, it's like, okay. And I'm sure this happens sometimes with the nanny as well. But you have, in that instance, you are given the opportunity, because your mother is taking your eldest and your youngest is sleeping for 45 minutes twice a day. So in that situation, you have an hour and a half. And if you say, well, all I really want is just some time for myself, do you take it?
[48:27] I currently do not.
[48:29] Well, why not?
[48:29] I should.
[48:31] No, because you're saying this is all you want. Now, if I say to my wife, all I want for my birthday is carrot cake, and she gets me carrot cake and I don't eat it, wouldn't that be a little confusing?
[48:42] It would be.
[48:43] And if I'm fighting, saying, I never get any carrot cake, and she's like, oh, here, honey, here's some carrot cake, I want that.
[48:52] Yeah, so why am I not taking it? Right.
[48:54] And I'm sure there's more scraps here and there that you can do with a cleaner and with a nanny and with your mother and with your husband who takes care of your eldest for some time. Right. I'm just trying to understand. And I say this with genuine compassion. Right. I mean, why, if you say this is all you want, why don't you take it?
[49:20] I really don't know. I really don't know. It feels like I spend it cleaning up. Yeah, I spend it trying to run the household, trying to get things done so I don't have any more duties or any more things to get done when the kid is awake.
[49:44] You and I both know it's never done.
[49:49] That's true.
[49:50] If you wait and say, well, I'll rest when everything's done. You know that old saying, a woman's work is never done. It's true, right?
[49:56] Yeah, it is.
[49:57] So if you say, because this is my question, if you have a complaint, and honestly, this is a male-female thing, so maybe I speak on behalf of your husband here, but it's a male-female thing, is that the woman complains and complains and complains and goes kind of nuts. And then when you work to try and provide the woman what she's, you know, to address the woman's complaint, she doesn't take it.
[50:25] I see some truth in that, yes.
[50:27] So what's your mother's relationship to complaining? Was she a complainer? Was she a victim? What was her relationship to always having to work or always choosing to work? Okay.
[50:44] She wasn't complaining. I think she thrives in it. Sometimes she does complain that she doesn't get any time to herself, but she really thrives in always being busy.
[51:02] So she does complain about it?
[51:06] Very rarely. She does, but very rarely.
[51:10] Okay when you and your siblings would want more time from your mother or did you even ask for it or when you would want more interaction or time or play with your mother what was her response be what would her response be.
[51:24] That she's busy doing something else.
[51:30] Okay so she's busy doing something else and how did that feel for you as a kid.
[51:39] That she didn't want to play with us. It felt like she didn't want to play with us. She just managed us.
[51:46] Right. So she just reacted and sort of maybe snapped at you when there was conflict or something like that, right? Okay. So your mother didn't seem to take much pleasure in parenthood. Is that right?
[52:00] I tend to agree, yes.
[52:01] And why do you think your mother didn't seem to enjoy being a parent and yet had four kids?
[52:14] Um you would have to ask her i don't know.
[52:18] Well guess who's not on the line her and you know you know you know why did she not enjoy spending time with her children and then have four children.
[52:38] I'm not seeing it. I don't know.
[52:44] Has your mother had any significant achievements in her life?
[52:52] No, we are her achievements.
[52:55] Okay. So one of the things that people do, this is a little bit more true for women, I think, is everybody wants to feel important. And sometimes people feel important by doing great good in the world, by starting companies, by inventing cures for ailments, or running a soup kitchen, or helping out the poor. And they're then important in life because of some great value that they're providing. Does that make sense? Okay. In other words, if you provide great value in your life, I'm getting this wild deja vu. food. But anyway, if you're providing this wild value in your life, this great value in your life, then your life is satisfying because you feel important because you are providing great value and you are important, if that makes sense. Okay. However, there's another thing that's uniquely open to mostly mothers, which is to create people who need you and then deny that need. And that way, they're always looking for something from you. They're always trying to get something from you, they're always in pursuit of you in a way, and you feel important that way. But it is important that you don't give the kids what they want. And then instead of gaining a sense of importance from your kids needing you, you're then in the service of your kids, which is different. Right.
[54:25] Yes.
[54:26] So I would guess that the source of your stress, guess, right, that the source of your stress is your mother commanding you to not relax and enjoy your time with your children, but to keep you distracted and dissociated. Because if you actually relax and enjoy your time with your children, it will break your heart in a thousand pieces for a short period of time. Because then you'll realize exactly what your mother didn't do. Whereas if you stay stressed and busy and distant, then you don't have to confront, the distance and coldness of your mother and how much that hurt and how much you needed that as a kid. Her warmth. Her pleasure in your company. Her enjoyment of motherhood.
[55:20] And she enjoys the day she has with my oldest son so much you should see those two to get together i have never i don't think my mom played with us ever as she does on a weekly basis with With my son.
[55:37] Now that's cruel. That's cruel. Do you know why?
[55:48] Because it's the only way she gets my child.
[55:53] No, it's cruel because she's telling you, hey, I know exactly how to play with kids. I just didn't play with you. I'm really good at playing with kids. I just didn't do it with you. have you ever talked to your mom and say how come you play with my kid more than you played with me.
[56:08] Yes and her excuse was i had a household to run you wait until you have four kids and then you know what i'm talking about because you're always busy um running a household you don't have time to play with kids, that's what i'm scared of no no but this is it's.
[56:24] The it's the exact opposite of the truth Okay. Let's go even deeper. So, you and your siblings, when you were little, when you were growing up, what was your relationship like?
[56:42] Um i bullied i'm the oldest of four i have two sisters and the youngest is a brother and i bullied the second oldest so the sister that is two years younger than i am and the other sister i got along very well with and my brother i didn't really connect with him somehow there's seven years between me and my brother but somehow i don't have memories of him being young i i don't recall playing with him i feel so bad but like now i do i bully my sister my one year uh two years younger sister and the one that was five years younger i got along with and then the brother i didn't really connect with him but we had you how.
[57:25] Did you bully your sister what did you do.
[57:26] We had so i grew up in the countryside and there was one house next to ours and then And there was nothing for like a mile in all directions. And the four of us played with our neighbors. It was also four kids, four girls around the same age. And we would play games where she was excluded or where I excluded her because I was the oldest of all eight of us kids. So I guess I got the upper hand or I was the boss. the whole gang and I excluded her I well.
[58:06] You became your mother right by excluding.
[58:10] My but my mom didn't exclude anyone like how sorry she didn't play with you I don't yeah she didn't yeah and then you wouldn't play.
[58:17] With your sister, you felt excluded from your mother's playing, and so you excluded your sister from your playing.
[58:30] Mm-hmm.
[58:31] You felt your mother had more important priorities than spending time with and playing with you, and so you showed that you cared more about the other kids than your own sister because your mother cared more about work than you.
[58:47] Mm-hmm. yeah i i think i can see that, yeah because there's no reason like sometimes when we were like just family somewhere then i would play with my sister but when it was in other situations i would just exclude her or be mean to her and she's the nicest she was always this sunshine she was always a sunshine always positive always smiling like there's no reason I can't see why I would not like her.
[59:21] No she was that way because she was being rejected so she had to be super nice in the hopes of not being rejected. That's not an organic personality structure Okay, I mean if you're in prison and the prison guard might not feed you you're going to be super happy peppy and positive towards the prison guard right?
[59:42] Yes.
[59:43] It's not natural, So the reason I'm saying, so you said, well, your mother says, well, I had a household to run, right? And she managed her kids. So the way, but the kids were having a lot of isolation and conflict, and I'm sure there were tears, and as you say, there was bullying and rejection and problems and fighting, right? So what happens is parents say, well, my kids have too much conflict for me to play with them because all I do is manage conflict. Does that make sense? But the reality is that they're having conflict because the parent hasn't played with them, hasn't taught them how to... Like, kids can't learn how to play with each other. They learn how to play with each other because the parents play with them. It's like kids teaching each other a language. They can't teach each other the language. They can learn the language their parents speak.
[1:00:35] Mm-hmm. I heard that on some other podcasts from you before. And I do that. I'm on the floor with both kids and I play with one, I play with the other. I have the little one on my lap and I play with the older one or we look at a book together. So I try to foster some relationship. And I can see it now. The older one comes and brings the toys. The younger one, if he happens to like accidentally kick it away or he brings him his book that he likes or the older one brings the younger one the book that the older one knows the younger one likes and like i can see some of it but sometimes the older one is frustrated and and then he just yeah then he just bites he bites the younger one or he bites me and i don't know how to react okay.
[1:01:21] So let's focus on the adults right so when i when i hear or see of dysfunction on the part of the kids the first place we have to look is dysfunction on the part of the adults okay so how often, do your kids see either conflict explicit or implicit or lack of closeness between you and your husband and how often do they see genuinely affectionate and loving behavior.
[1:01:51] Um, how often? I would say they see, okay, before I gave birth to the second, it was a lot more peaceful. But right now, there's not a lot of interaction at this current moment. Also, because I go to bed, when my husband gets home, I usually go to bed fairly early to get more sleep into my night before the older one wakes up. So okay, that doesn't answer your question how often um we like i say goodbye when he goes to work it's it's very affectionate how we uh part and when he gets home there's a kiss there's we we talk for a little bit and i think they see they they see affection on a daily basis maybe right now when we there's less interaction between my husband and me they see less of it but, I think it's fairly affectionate. And when we fight, yeah, they see that too. But it doesn't happen that often. Maybe it happens once a week, I'd say, at the moment, because I'm so stressed.
[1:03:04] Okay. So stop using stress as an excuse. You've got to stop using stress as an excuse. Okay. So what do they see when you and your husband are fighting?
[1:03:18] Um... They see me voicing my exhaustion, being negative.
[1:03:32] The two-year-old sees you voicing your exhaustion? That's a little abstract, don't you think, for a two-year-old?
[1:03:39] Yes.
[1:03:40] No, no, I don't have the language for it, but I'm sure that dear old mama is just voicing her exhaustion.
[1:03:47] Okay, so they see...
[1:03:48] What do they see?
[1:03:49] Okay, what do they see? it doesn't get loud okay and I have to think of I have to think of an example, it's hard to think of one we haven't had a bad, conflict it's just lots of non-interactions it's lots of him coming home us talking for two minutes and then me saying okay, the baby's He's in bed, so can I just brush my teeth and go to bed? And he's like, okay. And then I go to bed. So currently it's not a lot of conflict. And when there is, it's not loud. It just results in tears at the moment from my side because I'm so stressed. I'm sorry for using it again.
[1:04:41] Okay, so how much on a weekday, you said the husband comes home and then you talk for two minutes and then you go brush your teeth?
[1:04:49] Yes.
[1:04:51] Okay. How do you think the kids perceive that? Let's say you're oldest. I mean, it's hard to know what's going on in the mind of a four-month-old, but we can reasonably guess with two. So how do you think your son experiences that? Dad comes home and mom bolts.
[1:05:17] Yes, he sees that he has a duty.
[1:05:20] Yes. Thank goodness you're home. Bye.
[1:05:24] That's how I feel.
[1:05:26] Right.
[1:05:26] Because i 10 like come on until 10 or 10 30 it's just crazy, yeah and i it feels like a duty until so late at night it feels like a duty and i just want him in bed at a reasonable hour okay but i can't like if if he doesn't need more sleep then he just doesn't need it but yes it's a duty until he's actually off to bed okay Okay.
[1:05:53] How often do you, as a family, all play and have fun together? I mean, again, I know the four-month-old is a little tricky, but...
[1:06:03] On the weekends. On the weekends, we have... The weekends are really nice. They're fine. Not just fine. They're really nice because there's two adults handling two kids. and there's no overwhelming moments and.
[1:06:23] In your environment you said you live in an apartment uh are there no other mothers around that you enjoy spending time with or you could kind of.
[1:06:31] Yeah i yes there's uh i go on playdates regularly and i i'm outside a lot on playgrounds where there's other kids so and then he doesn't always want me or he still wants me but there's something thing else going on and i don't have to actively entertain him okay all day so.
[1:06:49] You get some some time uh without direct parenting uh at playgrounds and on play dates in the neighborhood and so on right.
[1:06:56] Yes yes okay.
[1:07:02] So tell me what is your, you know, deep, maybe even dark thoughts regarding your son? Because I do get a sense of a certain amount of frustration and resentment. So let's just unpack that, because if it's there, right, we need to talk about it.
[1:07:20] What is the resentment? It is him needing me so much. He's two years old, but of course that's going to be the case. What kind of answer are you fishing for? Like what character traits I think are negative?
[1:07:49] Sorry, it's mildly annoying when you say, what answer are you fishing for? Like I'm trying to trap you or catch you in something. You know, just from the way you've described it, there seems to be some resentment. And I'm just asking if there is, what is it? I'm not trying to fish for something or, or I have an agenda, if that makes sense.
[1:08:09] I see. I'm sorry for, I don't portray you as negative. I didn't mean to. I didn't mean to. Um. It's these...
[1:08:27] Like, he's got to have some behaviors that are really bothering you, right? I mean, obviously, aggression against your baby is pretty tough to like, right? The neediness, the yelling, the sometimes screaming your name and so on. I mean, just sort of tell me what your experience is of that. Like, tell me the stuff that, you know, just is bothering you or upsetting to you or you experience as negative.
[1:08:54] Okay um i'm crying at the moment it's a bit hard um it's these moments uh like at lunch or at breakfast when he's done eating and i want to clean up the kitchen i want to you know put the bowls away in the dishwasher um wipe down the table wipe down his chair or something and when he's done uh i clean his hands and then he just comes to me he takes my hand and he says mama come play and they and i if i don't comply he starts crying and that's just that's stressful like he or when i um when when we're playing and uh one point uh or he he's he's in the room playing he just gets uh 50 minutes of independent play time in the morning um he he get i get i get about 50 minutes and then i can usually sorry what sorry.
[1:09:54] I'm not sure what you mean what is 50 minutes of independent play time.
[1:09:57] Okay um when you know we get up and change diaper.
[1:10:01] Oh i'm so sorry your audio has just gone very quiet i think you hit the connector or something.
[1:10:05] Okay i'm sorry uh is it better now yes.
[1:10:08] Thank you okay.
[1:10:09] Um so you know you feed them you change them and then uh either he if.
[1:10:18] If he doesn't ask me to play or I go in the playroom and I start playing with him and at one point I'm going to disappear or I'll tell him I'll do something and then I collect the things to go out to the playground and sometimes he doesn't let me do that. He gets frustrated with me not playing with him.
[1:10:38] And then he just walks behind me for 10 minutes while I go about and I collect water bottles, I collect clothes, I collect diapers. person and i try to tell him okay uh can you you know mama is mama is uh getting ready to to to go out or we're we're going out we're doing something and and all he does is like no mama come play mama come play the cars with me mama come play the train with me and uh it's it's it's hard to get to have any agenda to do anything any household work while if i have him and that's just frustrating that i don't i don't get to brush my teeth some some days i i take i have my toothbrush in my pocket and a little toothpaste and i go to playground where there's water so i can brush my teeth because he's just been he's been so frustrated with me that i i don't get the time i I have my house shoes on, my slippers, and I have a toothbrush in my hands. And this is how we go out because I can't deal with more crying because he wants to play with me.
[1:11:52] And then I just put him in the stroller and we go out and then things are better. That's funny.
[1:11:58] I kind of have to map these answers by what's not said. Do you remember what my question was?
[1:12:06] What frustrates you about it?
[1:12:07] No. So you talked about 50 minutes of independent playtime. And I asked what that was. us and then i gotta i have to brush my teeth i'm sorry tooth i know you're tired like i i'm i'm not you know i'm not i'm not criticizing i'm just sort of pointing out it's like we went on quite a journey there but not towards the the question yes yes so what is 50 minutes of independent play time he.
[1:12:30] Can play by himself with his toys for about 15 minutes.
[1:12:35] So at some point 15.
[1:12:39] 1-5.
[1:12:39] 1-5, okay, got it.
[1:12:40] 1-5, yes.
[1:12:42] Sorry, I thought of a 5-0, though, I understand that. You just want to be there. Okay. Yes. Got it.
[1:12:47] That's Indie Planet playtime.
[1:12:50] Right. And does he have any screen time, or is that not something that you guys do?
[1:12:55] No. Zero.
[1:12:57] Zero, okay, got it. All right. Right. So when he wants to play, would he rather play or have you pick up the stuff that you need to go to the park?
[1:13:09] Of course he would rather play. Okay.
[1:13:12] So why not do that?
[1:13:19] Because for me, life with two kids is more manageable when I'm outside in the park or on a playground.
[1:13:29] Well, no, no, that's not quite true. Sorry to tell you your life, but you're talking about how he's trailing around for you for 10 or 15 minutes crying and wanting to play. So that's not easy, right?
[1:13:41] Yes.
[1:13:42] So, I mean, how much control does your two-year-old have over what happens over the course of the day?
[1:13:50] if he says he wants to keep playing and you want to go to the park because it's a little easier, how is that negotiated?
[1:14:05] I usually get it. I think he gets a lot of independence.
[1:14:14] No, no, that's not. I didn't ask if he gets a lot of independence. I asked how is it negotiated. How is it negotiated? If he wants to stay home and play and you want to go to the park, how is that negotiated?
[1:14:33] In that moment, it's not negotiated, but by the time I'm packed and I ask him, do you want to press the elevator button to go down, then he's all game.
[1:14:47] No, no, I get that. So how much control does he have over what happens over the course of his day?
[1:14:56] Okay, the going outside part is usually non-negotiable, but then he gets to pick where we go.
[1:15:03] But he doesn't want to go. He wants to keep playing, right?
[1:15:10] Yes. Yes.
[1:15:11] Okay, so that's my question.
[1:15:13] By the time we go, I don't pick him up and be like, okay, now we go.
[1:15:17] I didn't say that. I didn't say that. So again, how much choice, I'm really trying to help you, right? So how much choice does he get over the course of the day if he wants to keep playing cars or trains or something like that? If he wants to keep playing and you want to go out, what say does he get?
[1:15:46] Um, he gets convinced to go out.
[1:15:50] So no say really?
[1:15:52] Yes. Okay.
[1:15:53] And how do you feel about that? I mean, do you think that that's, um, necessarily the right approach to, to just, well, you have to do what mom wants because isn't that just going to make him kind of resentful and feel helpless, right?
[1:16:07] Yes.
[1:16:07] Okay. And you feel helpless too, right?
[1:16:11] Yes.
[1:16:12] And he, of course, didn't, I assume he didn't hugely want to go to daycare. And, you know, the decisions that you made for the first year, for that year and a half or so.
[1:16:25] So how much control does he have over what happens over the course of his day?
[1:16:39] I i still think he gets a lot of control it's it's the going what what happens uh in the morning um the part when we go out and i collect my things he doesn't get insane that because, i want to get ready uh for the going out part but then once i'm ready i'm not like okay now we go So then I usually sit down with him and play with him. But it's just the getting ready part. It's the part where I'm not playing with him that is very frustrating to him.
[1:17:09] Okay. See, we've got this story going on where I try to give you some choices, and you basically say, my kid's unreasonable. This is a pattern in our conversation here.
[1:17:23] Okay.
[1:17:24] So I'm trying to give you some thoughts, and maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong. I'm trying to give you some thoughts about how to reduce the conflict with your son. And basically it comes back to, well, no, he's just unreasonable. And I think, honestly, I think you're kind of wedded to this. So let me just lay it to you straight on. Your son's behavior is a reflection of your choices. Yes. Right? There's one of two things. Either your son's behavior is a reflection of your choices and your husband's choices, or it's innate.
[1:18:02] Right?
[1:18:03] He just is the way he is, right? Like his eye color is just genetic, right? Now, if it's genetic, then obviously holding him accountable and getting upset with him is wrong.
[1:18:16] Yes. Right?
[1:18:17] That makes sense, right?
[1:18:18] Mm-hmm.
[1:18:20] So if it's genetic then they would make it would make no sense to to i mean i'm sure occasionally it would be frustrating or whatever but uh it wouldn't be anything he would be doing that was wrong right now if it's a reflection of your choices then it's also unfair to judge him negatively for those things right but you're trying to you're trying to i think i mean my instinct is i could be wrong but you're trying to create this my son's unreasonable and you're You're trying to get me into this story.
[1:18:49] Mm-hmm.
[1:18:51] And it's impossible for a two-year-old to be unreasonable. It's impossible.
[1:18:56] Mm-hmm.
[1:18:57] You follow? It can't happen. So we need to pull out of your toolbox the argument that, well, my son is just needy and unreasonable and aggressive and, right? Well, you're heaping all of this quasi-moral judgment on him when he's two.
[1:19:14] Mm-hmm.
[1:19:17] He missed out on, okay, how long was he in daycare? Three days a week? Or daycare plus your mom?
[1:19:24] All of it combined, three days a week. Two days daycare, one day my mom.
[1:19:29] How long did that go on for?
[1:19:32] A year.
[1:19:34] A year, okay. So if you add all of those hours up, right, that's hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours that he did not get to spend with you and learning how to interact with you. And he also would have potentially, I don't know, I don't know what the technical term is, but it's like an insecure attachment or something like that, where he perceived that there were more important things for you to do than spend time with him because he was not in your care for three days a week, right? Now, these are all choices that you and your husband made, right? So he can't be held accountable for that, right? Right.
[1:20:16] I see that.
[1:20:17] If he has some anxiety about his level of importance to you.
[1:20:22] Mm hmm.
[1:20:23] Um, Do you think that your son feels that he is a great treasure to you and that you absolutely love spending time with him, you're thrilled to have him in your life? Does he feel that level of security and attachment coming from you?
[1:20:44] Probably not.
[1:20:46] Right. Because that will cause him the most relaxation, right? If in the morning you're like, oh, I'm so glad you're up. How wonderful to see you. I'm really looking forward to our day together. Like how much of a treasure he feels in your heart that you are absolutely thrilled and overjoyed to have him in your life and you wouldn't want it any other way or have any other kid. I mean, I don't mean siblings, but then him, right? I mean, do you feel that from your husband, that your husband is thrilled and overjoyed to have you in his life and wouldn't trade you for a sack of gold?
[1:21:29] Yes, absolutely.
[1:21:30] Okay. So you don't have, do you have any particular anxiety that your husband is just going to cheat or leave or?
[1:21:35] No.
[1:21:36] No, because you're, you know, number one in his heart and you're completely secure in the relationship, right? Right?
[1:21:44] Mm-hmm.
[1:21:47] So, did you feel that you didn't feel that with your mom, I assume?
[1:21:51] No, no. Right.
[1:21:53] Right. So, what's the problem with... Why are you keeping your heart distant from your son? Why are you eyeing him in a critical and sometimes fairly judgmental or negative way at times?
[1:22:22] That's probably how my mom viewed me.
[1:22:24] I think so. Did you view yourself as a great and wonderful addition to your mom's life or just something that was bothersome? Yes.
[1:22:32] Yes. Right.
[1:22:34] Now that's the cycle to break. Yeah, that's the cycle to break. That's the cycle to break.
[1:22:44] Okay.
[1:22:46] If he feels bothersome to you, he's going to feel very anxious. because the only security a child has is the devoted love of his mother. If he feels negatively judged, if he feels bothersome, if he feels negative, if he feels in the way, then he's going to be anxious and clingy. Because isn't clinginess just a constant need for reassurance?
[1:23:20] Yes.
[1:23:21] So why does he need to be constantly reassured of your affection, or your presence, or your attachment?
[1:23:29] Yeah, because he doesn't get it.
[1:23:32] Well, I'm sure he does at times, right? But I don't know that it's consistent enough. I mean, the way you talk about your son, he wakes us all up. It's almost like this foreboding, oh God, he's up.
[1:23:49] Yes and it is how he feels.
[1:23:52] Right it's.
[1:23:53] Like oh shit my night just ended.
[1:23:54] Right right now do you think that your son is not picking up on that oh no he's up.
[1:24:08] Yeah, probably is. Kids always are.
[1:24:12] I mean, you have the whole world to examine. Kids just have their parents and their mom in particular. He's rummaging and scouring through every corner of your mind, heart, body, and soul. Guaranteed. So tell me about the feeling when he wakes up and wakes you up. Now, again, I mean, I understand you're tired. And, you know, I'm always amazed at how women function at all on that little sleep. So I understand that you're tired and you need a rest and so on. But what else is going on that it doesn't sound to me hugely like you look forward to a day with your son?
[1:24:56] You know, because mornings are stressful. Sorry, stress coming in again.
[1:25:03] No, you're not using it as an excuse. I'm fine with you talking about it.
[1:25:10] It's always packed in the morning, having two kids, and then you change one diaper, and then the other one poops in the meantime. time and just getting everyone up and running is including myself, getting the time to brush my teeth, brush my hair. Sometimes, especially when I'm alone, let's not look at currently with Nanny, but especially when I'm alone, it's it's it's hard because then the the baby is uh the baby's unsettled and it's there's always something where i'm i'm always tending to something or someone that's why the mornings are.
[1:26:02] Okay but why why is tending to something or someone why is that stressful and i i don't mean to be accusatory like it shouldn't be i just want to understand it from your perspective why is that stressful.
[1:26:22] Because because in my i would like to have, i would like to have some peace in the morning i would like to wake up get dressed drink a glass of water and then and then tend to my kids because hang on hang on i mean you can do that you.
[1:26:43] Can do that but you'll have to get up earlier and and you're tired right.
[1:26:48] Yes yes yes so you say You say.
[1:26:51] I would like to, and it's like, but when we have a I would like to, that is impossible. Of course, we're going to get stressed and frustrated, right? Does that make sense?
[1:27:04] Yes, yes, yes, yes.
[1:27:05] Okay, so what is the I would like to? Because, I mean, if you want to have peaceful mornings, it's pretty easy. Just don't have kids, right?
[1:27:14] Yes.
[1:27:14] But if you have kids, you're just not going to have peaceful mornings in that way, right?
[1:27:20] Correct.
[1:27:21] So help me understand that you want things to be different than what you've chosen. I think that's where some of the real fundamental stressors are coming from. And this has got to come from your mom. Maybe your dad too, but it's got to come from your mom. She chose four kids and seemed to be constantly bothered by kids. In other words, she is frustrated and annoyed at the direct result of her own choices.
[1:27:45] I see.
[1:27:46] But if you can't be at peace with your own choices, what can you be at peace with at all? okay i tell you this i you know my daughter is almost 16 right i tell you this i can't tell you what i would do to go back to those chaotic early days, i love the time now but you know when i see maybe this is like the grandfather gene kicking it or something but when i see little kids around or some of my friends have little kids and so on and it's like, oh, I loved that time. Yeah, it was chaotic. Yeah, it was tiring. Yeah, but I guarantee you there will be times when you would just give anything to come back to this time. But you're not able to enjoy it that much at the moment, right? And I sympathize with that. I really do. But there's two ways we end up not enjoying something. A, because it's either not enjoyable, right? They've got to do our taxes or something, right? Or B, we have expectations that chafe against reality. They rub us raw, like our expectations are constantly at war with reality.
[1:29:05] Yes, yes.
[1:29:06] You don't have a self when you have little kids. I don't have a self when I had a little kid. Everything you do, you're like a piece of wrapping paper. You just mold yourself around what is. Right? You're not going to have a separate identity. You're not going to have 10, 15 minutes in the morning to peacefully sip a cup of coffee. That's not what early childhood parenting is. And I think that these expectations are just chafing against just a relaxed enjoyment of what's going on. Yes, you're absolutely tired. Absolutely. I understand that, and I sympathize with that. But everybody knows that's the deal, right?
[1:29:48] Yes.
[1:29:49] This can't be a shock, right? So you have expectations that are keeping you from, I think, the deepest connection with your children's hearts, which will have them behave in better ways. you are standoffish a little bit you're chafing against it and you're judging in particular your son negatively like feeling put upon by him that's got to come from your mom, oh you kids are driving me crazy or you know it's too much stop fighting be quiet slow down don't run whatever like whatever was going on your kids are giving me a headache and you know the rubbing of the temples and it's just like my gosh Oh my gosh. Was that your memory of your mom or is there something else?
[1:30:33] Yes. No, no, no. That's it. Right. Be quiet and no running. Go outside.
[1:30:45] You're a bother. You're an intrusion. You're in the way. I've got things to do.
[1:30:49] Yes.
[1:30:50] Right. So that, embrace the chaos of parenting. I mean, I don't know what else you're supposed to do. But, you know, if I choose to get a dog and then I'm constantly annoyed at the dog and judging the dog as being intrusive and I can't believe I've got to get up early, it's like, but that's having a dog. That is literally having a dog. If you don't want to do that, get a goldfish or nothing.
[1:31:18] Right? Yes.
[1:31:22] Your husband is high energy, high intellect, little sleep, right?
[1:31:27] Yes.
[1:31:28] And your son is?
[1:31:30] Same, same.
[1:31:31] Right. So you chose your son when you chose your husband. You chose your son's nature when you chose the man to have children with.
[1:31:43] Yeah.
[1:31:44] Right? So you can't blame your son for anything about who he is. Like maybe when he gets to be 16 or 17 or 15, maybe you can start to hold him a little bit accountable, but you can't, your son didn't choose who you chose as his father. Your son didn't choose you as his mother. Your son didn't choose to go to daycare and to be with his grandmother, right? Your son didn't choose any of that stuff. And it doesn't sound like he gets and excess of choices during the day. And in general, in parenting, it's better to err on the side of too much choice. Because if kids just feel like they're on their parents' agenda, they feel helpless and frustrated and angry because their preferences are ignored. In the same way, it sounds like your mother ignored your preferences, that she enjoys spending time with you guys. Can you think of a time when your mother showed deep delight in your presence or existence.
[1:32:53] Maybe it was playing in the water. Yes, maybe it was playing in the water.
[1:32:58] Okay. And how often did it happen where she expressed to you directly how wonderful it was to have you in her life?
[1:33:09] Basically never. Right. Until we got older and independent.
[1:33:14] Well, that's too late, right? I have told my daughter 30 times a year how incredibly honored and privileged and happy I am to have her in my life. How much I admire her, how much I respect her, how much I learn from her too. And that she is, I'm incredibly and deeply honored to have her in my life. so it doesn't sound and what about what about your father though did he express, joy and happiness at having you in his life.
[1:33:52] No no no.
[1:33:53] Right so you don't know what it is to be loved truly loved by a parent, you know how it is to be annoying and in the way and an intrusion and and a bother, and so on, right?
[1:34:12] Yes.
[1:34:12] But you don't know what it is to be truly treasured and loved by a parent. Or even partially, maybe on occasion when you were swimming, as you say, right?
[1:34:24] Yes.
[1:34:26] So, are you aware that you don't know that? You have not experienced that?
[1:34:33] No, I'm aware as of one minute ago. Right.
[1:34:38] Right. So, why do parents experience their children's needs as stressful?
[1:35:04] Because it cuts into their agenda maybe.
[1:35:06] I'm going to give you a deposit and withdrawal approach maybe it helps maybe it doesn't okay so uh have you ever been in seriously in debt, no okay so imagine that you are a thousand dollars in debt and imagine you have a hundred thousand dollars in your bank account right is it stressful when somebody comes to ask you for the $1,000?
[1:35:28] No.
[1:35:28] No, because you can pay it easily, right? Because you've had a lot of deposits in your bank account, so this withdrawal is not a big deal, right?
[1:35:36] Yes.
[1:35:37] However, if you owe $100,000 and have only $1,000 in your bank account, how stressful is it when somebody comes pounding on the door demanding to be paid?
[1:35:46] Yeah, very stressful.
[1:35:47] Very stressful. So your children are hammering on the door of your heart asking for withdrawals but your mother did not deposit enough to cover the debt and you don't want to see that deficiency or to be more accurate, your mother doesn't want you to see that deficiency because that will cause you to have a conflict with your mother and to say mom why did you not, express much if any pleasure at our existence as kids or my existence as your daughter oh i had this to do i had that to do i had it's like no no but that's not fair right, Dad could have hired a bookkeeper, and you could have spent time with us. See, people say, well, I didn't have time for you kids because I was busy. And that's not true. They're busy because they don't want to spend time with their kids. That's what makes them busy. Right?
[1:36:50] Yes.
[1:36:50] Which is why you're saying, oh, these kids are draining me, and I just need five minutes for myself. And it's like I pointed out the hour and a half. You don't take it for yourself, because it's not about that. You inherited from your mother child avoidance, and feeling drained by children. But, you know, the love that you deposit with children comes back 10, 100 times. But this view of children, and I'm not putting you in this category, of course, 100% or even and 25%, but this view of children as vampires that drain their parents is kind of demonic, right?
[1:37:31] It's unfair.
[1:37:32] It is unfair. Children want to be loved, and they want to return that love. But you view them as like a subtraction from your identity. But they are literally you. You know, if I want to write a novel, do I get to say, well, this novel is a massive subtraction from my identity. It's like, no, the novel is an expression of my identity. The novel isn't robbing me. A novel is far less me than my child.
[1:38:06] Yes.
[1:38:12] Your mother became a bookkeeper because she did not want to have revealed to herself how cold she was towards her kids. Or, since she probably inherited it from her mother, her mother didn't want her to see that. Her mother didn't deposit into your mother, therefore she viewed the kids as dangerous creditors that she couldn't pay, so she avoided them. In the same way, if you have only $1,000 dollars in your bank account and you owe a hundred thousand dollars and people are hammering on your door you'll pretend not to be home you'll go out a lot like i i knew a guy many many years ago who owed a bunch of money and he had a whole elaborate series of well you phone me once you let it ring three times you phone me again you let it once you throw me again i'll pick it up after the second ring he had to do that much in order to avoid all the people who were calling him trying to get money from him. It's really stressful when you owe and you can't pay. And so your mother views you as an intrusion, you to some degree view your son as an intrusion, your oldest son. And how does your oldest son view the baby?
[1:39:37] As someone who, yeah, someone who subtracts from the time that, from the limited time that he gets.
[1:39:44] Your mother views you as an intrusion, you view your son as an intrusion, your son views the baby as an intrusion.
[1:39:51] Yeah. so if I don't break the cycle it's going to end up he's going to end up with the same relationship that I have with my younger sister.
[1:40:04] Well or your younger brother where as you said you don't even really remember him being young yes but here's the thing, you think that you're somehow hoarding parts of yourself by not giving your heart completely over to your children but all it means is that you spend the rest of your parent life, managing conflicts between your kids. You don't actually get anything added. It all gets subtracted. Do you see what I mean?
[1:40:36] Yes.
[1:40:37] And it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Because you don't open your heart truly to love your children, they end up being hostile to each other. And then you say, well, how can I love these kids? They're always fighting. Oh, I'm so tired of all this conflict. My gosh. But the conflict is the result of the lack of security and the lack of truly open-hearted devotion and love. Have you said to your son, your oldest son, who's in a verbal phase, right? I'm so happy you're in my life. Or something like that.
[1:41:17] Yeah, I tell him that I love him.
[1:41:22] Yeah, that's kind of abstract, though. Like, what does that mean in practical terms? Like, when you see him in the morning, are you happy to see him? not if you're just tired and and feel like you don't get your 10 minutes with your coffee and right i.
[1:41:38] Don't get an extra hour an extra three three hours of sleep.
[1:41:42] Right right i would.
[1:41:44] Be happy to see him.
[1:41:44] Right right but you chose to have the child and you also chose his sleep cycle by the man you chose to have the child with.
[1:41:56] Yes.
[1:41:57] Right. Now, is it fair to say that your husband is a fairly good earner?
[1:42:03] Yes. Right.
[1:42:04] So you chose to get a fairly good earner, which means an intelligent male brain that doesn't require a lot of sleep. So, in a sense, you and your family are being well paid for your son's sleeplessness. Because if you'd chosen the kind of kid who sleeps, you know, 14 hours a day, your husband would be broke.
[1:42:32] Yeah. I see the point.
[1:42:39] So your children are all the result of your choices. So what happens if you can't blame your kids? What happens if two things happen? One, you can't blame your kids for anything. Right. and two, you don't have the fantasy of a life in which not having kids would be better. Because you do, you have a bit of a fantasy of a life in which not having kids would be better. I get time for myself, I get coffee in the morning, I get to relax, I get to go to a spa, like whatever. You have, as far as I can tell me if I'm wrong, but this is what I'm getting out of the convo, that you have in your mind a better life without kids, or your life would be better in many ways or in some ways without having kids.
[1:43:40] I wouldn't go back to that life without kids, but it was easier.
[1:43:46] I get that. But what you've talked about is how difficult your life is with kids.
[1:43:52] Yes. Right.
[1:43:53] Now, if your husband came home after you got married and for the next couple of years kept saying, Oh, man, I really, really fantasize and dream and daydream about being single. No, seriously, if he did that on a daily basis, and when you woke up in the morning, he was like, oh, you're awake. And he was just, oh yeah, I can't believe you woke me. I had another wonderful dream about being single before I met you. How would you feel?
[1:44:37] I feel very bad for my older son.
[1:44:41] It would break your heart if your husband had that in his mind. I'm thinking about all the yacht bikini babes I could be banging like saucepans if only I wasn't married. I dream about going to diddy parties, but I'm married. if he had this fantasy of a great life without you, that meant he was constantly fighting with you and constantly frustrated with you would that not break your heart?
[1:45:17] In two million pieces.
[1:45:18] Right you can't do that with your kids my friend, and I'm sorry your mother did it to you I really am I mean, my mother did the same thing to me, if it's any consolation. It's fairly common. My mother used to always say, insanity is hereditary. We get it from our kids. You know, these kinds of things, right? Just constant cutting comments about kids. And she had a fantasy life. She'd be like Grace Kelly on the red carpet if she didn't have kids. She'd get some billionaire with a yacht if she didn't have kids. Whatever, right? Some Eartha Kitt song. But if you fantasize about a life without kids, that's even worse. than your husband fantasizing about a life without you.
[1:46:06] Because your husband chose you. Your kids didn't choose you. Your husband can leave any time. Your kid's got nowhere to go. You are their one source of being treasured. And your husband, of course, but I'm talking to you directly. You are their one source of feeling treasured. And if you fantasize about a life without them, you are setting yourself up for a lot of upset and stress. And part of the stress might be coming back from your son in particular. If he feels like he's an intrusion and an annoyance, then he is going to feel stressed. Because the only security and peace he gets is the absolute devotion of his mother. I mean, kids can't pay you, right? They can only make crappy lollipop people that you put on the fridge, right? Your kids can't provide anything of value to you other than the pleasure of their company. And if you don't love the pleasure of their company, how are they supposed to feel valuable? I mean, if your husband was constantly daydreaming about being single and you were trying to do everything you could to please him, you'd get pretty frustrated and upset, right?
[1:47:26] Absolutely.
[1:47:32] And it might be worth, I mean, for you, you've got, you know, Three siblings, right? It might be worth talking to them about what their experience was of your mother. But seeing your mother be real nice to your son, oof, man, that's rough. That's rough. Because it shows that she absolutely knows exactly what to do to be loving and affectionate. She just didn't do it with you and your siblings. That's kind of twisting a knife. I'm not saying she's doing it consciously, but that is kind of like twisting a knife there.
[1:48:03] Yeah.
[1:48:05] And it might be worth asking her, why do you think you take more pleasure out of your grandson than you did out of any of us kids? Like, I see you playing with him, you're delighted to see him, you have a lot of fun with him, but that wasn't my experience of your parenting. What do you think is different? Oh, well, I don't have a household to run and blah, blah, blah. It's like, but we were your household. Like the kids loving the kids and showing affection to the kids and showing the kids how much they mean to you, that is your household. Right?
[1:48:37] Yes.
[1:48:44] And that's another excuse, right? Which is to say, well, I didn't have time for you kids because I was running a household, but the household is the kids.
[1:48:51] Yeah. Well, that's going to be her answer. So I don't think she has a lot of introspection. So I don't think it's more like, I've actually asked her this before, and that was her exact answer. Like, oh, you wait until you have four kids. You'll see that there's no time to play with the kids.
[1:49:10] Well, yeah. I mean, the playing is one thing. It's certainly not the only thing, but the playing is a reflection of how much you want to spend time with your kids. So even if for whatever reason your mother doesn't for some time have time to play, she can at least say, I'm so sorry, I don't have time to play. I'm crazy busy, but I really miss spending time with you guys. And we'll do it as soon as we can. And here's the schedule and whatever you can come up with, right?
[1:49:38] Yeah.
[1:49:47] What was your husband's mother like in terms of showing affection?
[1:49:59] I can see it. I don't think there was a lot of it. She was also always working. Right.
[1:50:11] And workaholism a lot is to do with feeling like you're not valued for who you are, so you have to keep performing. You have to keep providing value because people don't treasure you for who you are. So maybe that's why he's working so hard and so on, right? That he just feels he needs to provide value because maybe he didn't have the experience of being loved for who he is as a kid. The deposits that need to get made into the hearts of children. Maybe there wasn't much deposited for him, so he's always having to pay out interest, so to speak.
[1:50:41] But he's much better at taking you to light in our son than I am.
[1:50:47] Right. And it's, you know, there's a lot of pain in there, right? There's a lot of sorrow. If you grew up with a mother who's kind of cold and distant and views you as an annoyance and a bother and a negative, that's really, that's a lot of rejection. That's a lot of rejection to absorb, right? And it's all just a coverup for the cold heart. That's all. right you kids are annoying is just a cover up for I can't express love, don't demand anything of me because I have nothing to give because I have not dealt with my own pain and rejection from my own mother, But, you know, if you open the furnace of your heart and let your kids warm themselves, I think that will solve a lot. Because, I mean, if you're modeling, judging, to some degree, of course, I know you're a great mom in most ways, right? So this is like a tweak, right? But if you're modeling to your son, rejecting the smaller and the weaker, he's going to do that to his brother, right?
[1:51:58] Yes. Yes. i am i'm just baffled i you've you've just opened i think you've just opened up this perspective of why things are as they are.
[1:52:15] Right the stress thank you so much yeah the stress is that your son you experienced your son as being needy and greedy and what i see is him needing reassurance that you love him that you you treasure him that he is a massive positive in your life i think if he gets that i think the neediness will, recede okay.
[1:52:47] Can we sum up so how do i move forward from here i try to embrace the chaos i try to yeah.
[1:52:54] So you You have to drop the fantasy that you have a life independent of kids, that your kids are taking away from this other life, right? You chose to have kids. You chose to have two kids under two and a half years old, which is, I have no problem with that choice. I think it's a great choice. I think it'll serve you well. But you have no life outside of being a mother and a wife for the foreseeable future. Like there's no other you that is going to shave against this any more than you expect your husband to dream about being single after he gets married.
[1:53:23] Understood.
[1:53:23] It like there is just there there's no there's no coffee there's no quiet there's no right there's none of that or if you really want it then take it when you're when your youngest is napping and your oldest is with your mother right yes.
[1:53:37] Prioritize it if you really.
[1:53:39] Want if you if this is what you claim you want uh and this is my my perspective in relationships as a whole and it's my perspective with myself as well it's that if i claim i want x y and z then if i have the opportunity but i don't take it i'm not going to pretend that i really want it yes right all i want is to buy a lottery ticket here are five lottery tickets well i don't want those okay then maybe stop talking about the lottery tickets that you want because you have the opportunity to buy them and you don't buy them so just and this is the great joy of empiricism right if i say oh i really want to start on a new book if only i had some free time and then i have some free time and i you know sit on my thumb uh picking my nose on the couch well then clearly i'm not desperate to start the new book or whatever. Like, they just have to look at that empirically. And I think that...
[1:54:31] Maybe talking to your siblings if they're open to this kind of thing, or just maybe writing down or journaling or whatever. I mean, what would it have been like for you if your mother had taken deep delight in who you were and really enjoyed, unprompted, wanting to spend time with you? As your husband, I'm sure he's like, I'm so sorry, I'm working so hard, I miss you, I want to spend time with you, like all of this kind of stuff. What was missing for you in your childhood that you felt that you were a bother to your mother? That she had all this other cool, exciting stuff going on that you were just getting in the way of? And then, you know, how did that translate into you? right you were a bother to your mother and just the sister you.
[1:55:21] Tormented was a bother you portrayed her as a bother to you right yes you know for your mother it's like well my work is super important and you're a bother and for you it's like well my friends are super important and you're a bother right Right. So that feeling, feeling like a negative to your parents is really, really tough. It really warps the heart. It doesn't mean you can't fix it or anything. You can actually end up with a heart three sizes bigger, but yeah, feeling like a bother to your parents is, it's nothing personal, right? It's not because you were a bother to your parents, right? It's just that if I can't pay the bill, I'll pretend to not be home. and then if somebody's knocking on the door, I'll be like, oh, it's so maddening to me that these people, it's like, no, I just can't pay the bill, right?
[1:56:10] Yeah.
[1:56:11] And so the best way, if you can't pay the bill, the best way is to get people to stop asking, and the best way, if your heart is empty and you can't show much love for your kids, the best way to get them to stop expecting love from you is to continue to call them a bother so they stop knocking on the door.
[1:56:28] That sounds so cool.
[1:56:30] Oh, it is, and I'm not saying your mother's, like, planning this out with like diagrams and flow charts and so on. But that is people who just, my father used to refer to it as resources. People don't have resources, right? They haven't had deposits. And then kids come along wanting a lot of withdrawals and they just have to chase the kids out of the bank to hide the fact that there's nothing in the account. It's not personal to you. It wasn't a judgment of you at all. It wasn't like you were objectively a bother. Yeah.
[1:57:00] It is that your mother, through her choices and her circumstances and her experience, couldn't show love. Now, the question is then, well, why can she show love to your son now? That's, I don't know, man. I think that's part of throwing you off the scent of her coldness with you. And, of course, she's in a different phase in life. She has less workaholism to distract her from these kinds of things because she's older. But, yeah, as far as the practical things, I think, you know, Get rid of the idea that you've got this great life without kids. Embrace that you chose to have these kids and you owe them everything. You don't have a life that's not going to be around your kids. And rather than have a standard like, well, if I'm changing a diaper, the other kid shouldn't be pooping the other diaper. You can't control that. Embrace it. Oh, I get a two for one. Right? as opposed to, well, this ideally shouldn't be happening. And it's like, there is no ideally with kids. That's just managing what happens.
[1:58:08] Yes.
[1:58:09] Enjoying the process, rolling with the punches. That's going to happen. You know, when my daughter was younger and she couldn't sleep, she was welcome to come get me or my wife. And, you know, we would go and chat and, you know, did I always want to do that? No, sometimes I was tired. But when I look back upon those times where we were just sitting quietly in the middle of the night chatting, it's really, I mean, would I go back for that? Absolutely. Those are really special times.
[1:58:48] Okay.
[1:58:51] Just embrace it all. I mean, the beautiful chaos that is having kids. You can fight it, but you just, everybody loses when you fight it because it's not like you just, you don't change your kids and fix all of that. You just end up enjoying the inevitable less. I mean, it's almost like aging, right? Like I can get mad, I just turned 58, right? I mean, oh my gosh, I'm not quite as spry and limber as I used to be and it's like, or I can just embrace the fact that while I have a few minuses on the physical sense, I have massive pluses in that I never have to take another final exam. And I know exactly what I'm going to do for the rest of my life. And I know who I'm going to spend it with. And I write like my major life decisions are in the past. So I get to enjoy momentum. And this is this pluses as well. So I would just say embrace, embrace it all. And, you know, you have wonderful, healthy, intelligent, attached kids, love them for it so that they know exactly how much they mean to you and how happy you are to have them in your life. And the best way to do that is to cast aside this other life that's better, that doesn't involve them because they're there and you have to embrace it because you chose to bring them in, right?
[2:00:03] Yes, yes. Okay, let me try to do that, yes.
[2:00:09] And listen, if there's anything else I can do, obviously, I'm happy to help, but that would be my approach if I were in your shoes.
[2:00:16] That has been most helpful.
[2:00:18] All right, all right, all right. Will you keep me posted?
[2:00:22] I will, I will, I promise.
[2:00:23] All right, listen, my big hug to everyone there. I can't tell you how magnificent it is that you're asking these questions and learning in this kind of way. Your kids are extremely, extremely lucky to have a mother like you and a father like you've chosen. So in this sort of mild course correction stuff, I wouldn't want you to lose track of the fact that you were doing an incredible job and your kids are incredibly lucky.
[2:00:46] Thank you for these kind words. Put this one out there because I love hearing those parenting calling shows.
[2:00:54] You are not alone in this. I absolutely guarantee you and I appreciate your time today.
[2:00:57] They're most helpful. so i hope this one helps someone else too and.
[2:01:02] Look at this you got two hours for yourself well.
[2:01:04] To some degree all right lots of love sister take care bye you too bye.
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